05 - How AI and Data Are Reshaping Digital Hiring - with Ian Benjamin

Recruitment is shifting fast, and digital marketing roles are feeling the impact. In my latest LiveChat Factory Podcast, I sat down with Ian Benjamin from Digital Execs to talk about:

🔥 The highs and lows of digital recruitment over the past decade
💡 How AI and data are shaping the hiring landscape
📉 Why candidate communication is still a major challenge in recruitment
🌍 The importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in hiring

One of the biggest takeaways? Customer service in recruitment matters. Candidates left in the dark will move on. Companies with slow response times lose top talent. Whether it's AI, data, or marketing—hiring the right people starts with treating candidates like customers.

For more information on what we do, please visit https://www.livechatfactory.live/

The Live Chat Factory Podcast is edited with finesse by Mike Roberts of Making Digital Real 🎙️

Transcript

Good morning everybody and thank you for tuning in to LiveChat Factory's latest podcast. Now I'm recording this on the 14th of February, the day of love, and what better guest than Ian Benjamin from Digital Execs. So Ian's agreed to join me, brave man, and we're going to go through everything that's happening at Digital Executives and what he feels about service and the state of play today in recruitment, digital recruitment in particular, and it's going to be a really interesting podcast. 

So over to you Ian, hello. Hey Karen, obviously thank you so much, Valentine's Day to invite me on. I'm privileged anyway to be on your podcast but on this day of love to put my Barry White voice on, do you know what I mean? But yeah, amazing, so doubly happy to be joining you today, so thank you very much. 

I really appreciate it. So quick intro, Ian, about yourself. I know I don't have to tell you about yourself but just for our listeners so they know. 

So Ian started Digital Execs recruitment some time ago and he's going to talk to us about that but Digital Execs is a digital marketing recruitment agency. Now Ian is also a champion of diversity, equality and inclusion and hosts his own podcast, Digital Podcast, which is great so check it out, and Ian's podcast is to inspire individuals within the digital sector, which it does fabulously. So I just would like to start by asking you, and this is straight in, so it's a big question. 

Go for it, anything you want Karen, anything you want. Yeah brilliant, well that's it, I thought I'd hit him, he just knows what he's talking about so it's fine. We haven't rehearsed any of these questions by the way guys, so how has the recruitment industry evolved since you started? So you started some time ago, you must have seen some changes, so have you got sort of an overview about that? Yeah, so the recruitment industry from a recruitment consultant perspective is a roller coaster, you get peaks and troughs where the market is candidate-led or client-led. 

So right now 2020, the last two years have been the worst it's ever been, so I've been in recruitment like the best part of 20 years and I've had my own gig for like say 10 years, 10-12 years, something like that, and this is the worst period because in 2020, the end of 2022, it started slowing down because after Covid things really kind of picked up, there was a bit of a hiring sort of like uptick, it was a good time where everybody was hiring, those companies were hiring, you had digital transformation, you had Zoom and companies, people were working on a hybrid basis and it was just good times after we had the downturn of Covid and so coming out of that, things really kind of took off and I was busy filling vacancies on a permanent basis, permanent roles across digital marketing and what that means is the sort of roles are search engine optimization, SEO, pay-per-click and recruiting for digital marketing people, social media etc. For digital agencies, clients like money, supermarket.com, Lloyds Bank, a lot of the medium to large digital agencies such as Incubator, OMD etc and so that was pretty good, it was good times and then I think that there was a couple of variables really, it has fallen off a cliff because there was over hiring, the elections, the US economy caught a bit of a cold and then we kind of, so they sneezed and then we got a cold and just the confidence in the tech market just disappeared so there was loads of layoffs and there's still layoffs up until today. So in the digital tech sector, it's not a good place, there's more supply than demand at the moment in time, we 2025, we are seeing a little glimpse of recovery but on the whole, it's very, very difficult for individuals to get jobs at the moment in time, people just aren't hiring and the companies are hiring, they're doing a lot of it direct because there's so many people looking so they don't need individuals as much.

Don't get me wrong, I mean I'm still working on a few bits and pieces but in terms of being super busy and you know that is not the case at the moment in time, a lot of recruitment companies are struggling, even a lot of the in-house recruiters that work for a company as an internal recruiter, recruiters, they're struggling themselves. What does that mean to business though Ian, what does that mean, how is that affecting business? Yes, it's affecting business massively because you know, I can't plan or forecast accurately and so the business is really switching, a lot of my focus, because there's only two of us full-time at the minute, is a lot of business development, being really innovative in terms of how we attract clients to what we do. So yes, it's had a massive impact, the last 18 months, two years, I mean not just me, I mean that is just the digital tech space has just been really, really quiet and so yeah, so yeah, it's a difficult time. 

Yeah, it's something you'd think would be growing because of the edge of AI and new technology, you'd be thinking that businesses would want to employ people who are in that space and understand the tech, even if they don't understand about AI and everything that sits behind it, but they're the people that are going to run it really. Yeah, 100 percent, 100 percent, yeah, so the data industry is something that I've kind of moved into over the last 18 months, I've started doing more data stuff, picking up more roles here and there, I've grown a network of data professionals as well, so yeah, so there is definitely, how can I say, there's more, also there's more coming through to me, but yeah, so there's definitely more activity in data, AI, machine learning, but it's still not as it was in terms of a high volume of roles and a lot of companies are figuring out what they want as well, so from an AI perspective, what do they want, what sort of people do they want, are they going to build their own AI platform, but also what's been good is that companies recognise the value of data in terms of looking at data, how that can help them predict how their business can be run, getting a really good deeper insight into how their business is, so from a data perspective, data hires, I see that taking off and over the next year or two, I mean, yeah, definitely, like data analysts, data scientists, data engineers, they are really going to be sought after individuals and hence we're kind of leaning into it, but from a digital marketing perspective, that is 100%, that is definitely down, there's definitely more supply than demand in that space, you know, so yeah. I guess things evolve and you're in the middle of that evolution in a way, because it's right, it's there, it's happening, it's happening now, and I just see a lot of businesses will need a company like yours to guide them to the right people, because even if they're employing AI agents, they still need to have all the data and the information, as you said, machine learning that sits behind that agent, so you know, to make it a success, so I think getting in touch with someone like you who can guide them to the right person is definitely going to be important, I'd say. 

Absolutely, absolutely, for them to kind of just understand, to kind of dip their toe in the water, to understand what that whole ecosystem looks like, from a data, engineering, science perspective, how they can implement AI into their business, so what sort of person do they need, so to have a little consultancy to kind of go in there and understand what they're doing, and potentially what the benefits can be if they hire someone, or if they implement some AI into their business, you know, what could that look like, and what the benefits of that could be in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months down the road, so that's definitely something that companies should look at, and I think a lot of them are hesitant, they're kind of thinking, well, you know, what is everyone else doing, because AI is just developing so quickly, it's just, you know, from 6 months ago to what it does now is significant, you know, it's just massively… Every day. Evolving, yeah, yeah, you know, in terms of the power of it is incredible, just, you know, it really, really is, so, but I think, you know, used correctly, it can benefit everybody, it can benefit some businesses, there's going to be some winners and losers, there's always losers, but I think there'll be more people that, who embrace it, that will, there'll be more positive outcomes for them, but you're absolutely right, definitely, it's, yeah, you know, it's a really, really good space to be in. I mean, that's, that kind of led me on to my next question, which we've already answered, really, because what I was going to ask you, has the type of roles that you're placing candidates, candidates in, has that changed? And I think, I think what, you've kind of answered it in a way, haven't you? Yeah, definitely, yeah, so my, my, I mean, digital marketing is my bread and butter, but in terms of doing more data type roles, 100%, you know, that's, you know, that's a big focus for me, for exactly what we've just spoken about, that's where the growth is, and to help companies understand who they may, may need on that journey, you know, what are they looking at right now? What, where are they on that sort of AI data engineering journey? And to, to, to better understand that, and then I can provide a solution for them, which is, you know, one individual or a team of individuals, you can kind of go in there and, and unravel where they are, and to kind of make sense of their growth by utilizing data and AI, you know, so that, that's a sweet spot, that's, that's utopia for me, to have those, having those conversations, those meetings about that. 

I love that, you know, so that's what I want. So if anyone is kind of like mulling over in terms of what they do about AI, then just please reach out to me. Oh, definitely, definitely, I'd, I'd, I'd second that, Ian, reach out to you, because why not? Have, have an audit, have a chat, because at the end of the day, you don't know what you don't know, and talk to somebody who does. 

I was just going to say, with, so when you're, when you're looking at candidates, and particularly in, in the digital world, Ian, do you think customer service plays a part in that? Do you ever think of that? Do you ever, do you ever look at that as a, as a? In what way? So like customer service in terms of? Well, you're, you're placing candidates into companies. Yeah. And, you know, there is an element of that they might have to deal with customers, they have to deal with other people in the company. 

So customer service to me is about really, it's to get engagement. It's how, how do you handle yourself? Or how, you know, how do you relate? Now, there are some people who are very techie, who particularly don't want to talk to people, I suppose, but I guess, I guess it would depend on the role. But does customer service ever come to it for you? Do you ever think about it? Or is that kind of like a third or fourth down the line? Doesn't really come into it for me, really, because if I am working with a client, you know, that's looking for a digital person, for example, a digital marketing person, then my contact to the candidate, I think, I can say, my methods of, because I'm a small business, I'm very, very careful in terms of making that connection a positive experience for them. 

But maybe some of the bigger companies, they could handle that maybe better in terms of from a customer service point of view, in terms of getting back to people, responding to messages back and forth from the candidate. Because sometimes, from a customer service point of view, managing candidates, that experience is awful, where companies rock the ball in terms of getting back to candidates, updating them where they are. And being a small business, I need to make sure that doesn't happen to me. 

My reputation is on the line. It takes years to build a reputation up. It can take seconds for it to kind of fall through the floor.

So yeah, I think you definitely, from a customer service point of view, the communication, the quality of the communication, the channels of communication that are available to make sure that it's at a high level, I think is critical. I think it's critical. And to get that right.

But I think it's easier for me, because I'm a small business, and so the volume isn't as high. But I think smaller agents, larger agencies definitely need to, you know, to improve that. Not just agencies, larger employers need to improve that candidate communication from an employment perspective, because it's pretty shoddy at times, pretty shoddy, for lack of a better word. 

Yeah, I know. I've been there back in the day when I was, you know, being recruited for different, certainly tent jobs around London. Oh my gosh. 

That was back in the day, though. That's quite a while ago. Well, I'm sure it hasn't changed. 

It hasn't changed. It's a massive situation still now, because especially where the way the market is now, where there's such a high surplus volume of people looking for roles. And then it's difficult for companies to manage the communication to those candidates, to inform them, to feedback to them three, four, five weeks down the road. 

The candidate's thinking, well, have I got a second interview? Have I got a first interview? Have I seen my application? So there's a massive issue there. Sounds like they're lacking in customer service, Ian. 100%. 

Yeah. And I think you, you're a digital execs. It sounds like you prioritise customer service for your business, for your candidates and your clients, to me.

I have to. I have to make, I have to look after them. Yeah, definitely. 

If anything is over the top so that I can, you know, so I can keep working with that client, keep working with those candidates. So yeah, it's a massive, massively important for me. Massively, you know, important area for my business. 

Good. And I can vouch for that as well, so. Thank you. 

It'll be a pretty good opportunity for you, though, obviously, with LiveChat, to bespoke something for recruitment firms. So to help them, or sorry, not just recruitment firms, but for the internal recruitment, recruiters at XYZ company to have a solution for them to help to better manage the candidate experience. I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's an opportunity there.

You know, it's a massive problem. So yeah, the touch points. Yeah. 

It's just keeping in touch, isn't it? And making sure everything's turning as it should do before you might have a great candidate and then they clear off because they think, oh, I haven't heard anything. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. 

Yeah. A lot of business news. And it reflects badly on the company.

You know, it reflects badly, you know, if it's like Sainsbury's, for example, you know, recruiting or whatever company it is, and they lose out on a candidate because they haven't informed that candidate of where they are in the process. And then that candidate gets another opportunity and takes that opportunity only because they weren't, there was a lack of miscommunication, lack of communication from, from Sainsbury's, for example. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, so it could be something there, Karen. 

Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks Ian. 

Thanks for the heads up there. So you learn something every day. Yes, indeed. 

A little bit of heart there for you. Thank you. Thank you, darling. 

Thank you. Thank you. So what was, Ian, now you introduced video job descriptions and you did that some time ago. 

I mean, I know quite a few people do it now, but I think you were one of the first, if not the first. Yeah. So has it helped the client candidate experience and talk us through that, what that sort of looked like? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Well, just I wanted to do something different because it's so difficult to get, to win clients, to get that trust with clients and to be the better service. So speaking to, suggesting to an employer, look, you've got these vacancies or you've got a vacancy, let's bring it to life. We'd all rather watch the movie than read the script. 

So if you can get those components of the vacancy, capture those in a conversation or have someone present it on the video, it's easy to do now with Zoom. But before I remember setting up my iPhone on the stand and talking on a tripod and I'd be talking about the vacancy and then editing in the photos of the office, the coffee machine and the car park and whatever, and all these different bits and pieces and putting together a three, four, five minute video and then sharing that with the written job description to add some weight behind it, to give the candidates more of an idea of what the company's like as well, not just about the role. And it massively helps because especially when the market was the other way around where clients were massively trying to attract candidates. 

So using video as part of that process to attract candidates is so, so powerful because it gives them a really good insight. And then because normally they would just get an email with a PDF attached, Word document attached with the job description, loads of words, but they can't really understand, well, who is this company? What do they do? What do they look like? What it's like to work there? So capturing conversations with members of the team, the hiring manager, talking about why they joined or other members of the team that they're recruiting for. How long have they been there? What are they working on? What tech do they use? What's the career development, et cetera, et cetera. 

And then sharing that with candidates is just super, super powerful. And I suggest it all the time. And speaking on Zoom about vacancies has definitely become more appealing for clients to do so because they've all become more comfortable talking on camera. 

So yes, I do it all the time. I do it all the time. And also the other way around as well. 

So when a candidate is interested in an opportunity that I then suggest, okay, let's have 10-12 minutes on Zoom. I'll send you the questions that I'm going to ask you on the video recording interview. So we do 10-12 minutes with the candidate. 

And then I share that video with the candidate to the client, to the employer. So they've got their CV and I've got a 10-12 minute video of me asking the candidate screening questions. What did you do in the last role? How did you do it? Why are you looking to leave? Blah, blah, blah, et cetera. 

What did your day look like? What tech do you use? What database? What campaigns have you put out? If it's a marketing role, et cetera, et cetera. And then that just helps to give the employer a better understanding of the individual's personality, but also their skillset and their suitability for the role. It's almost like a pre-interview.

100%. So you're taking that on and it's great. And it really does give the employer a great insight into how that candidate could perform, what they're capable of. 

And yeah, I like them. I'm going to see them. Yeah, definitely. 

Because it saves them so much time. Yeah. Because so many employers, they book out time in their diary to meet someone on Zoom or face-to-face. 

And I think, oh my God, the person hasn't even showed up. Or if they have showed up, oh no, I wouldn't interview them. And it's just been a waste of time. 

So it just takes out the time. And essentially, yeah, it's like a first stage interview, really. And so yeah, definitely something that is the future of recruitment, essentially, you know? Great survey. 

I'm excited for the candidate as well, because at least they know, you know, I'm not wasting my time either. You know, I'll get either get an interview or I don't off this. Buckle up.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Definitely.

Good stuff, Ian. So I'm going to move on now to diversity and inclusion. Because I know that's a big part of what you do. 

So I really wanted to include it in this podcast, this show today. So you're committed, Ian, I know, to levelling the playing field for Black and ethnic minority talent in the digital sector. So you've obviously recognised this needs to be done. 

So it's great. I just, could you sort of tell us, could you share with us what sort of initiatives you've been involved in? What does, you know, where you're at? Yeah. So obviously, this podcast is audio, so nobody can see me. 

But I'm a Black guy. Black guy, grew up in the 80s, 90s. And my parents are from the West Indies. 

But they came here in the 50s, 60s. And so yeah, so from a, and I grew up in Luton, Bedfordshire, very, very cosmopolitan, mixed ethnic sort of town, if you like. I'm fortunate enough now to be living in the decent side of the town. 

It's more rural, and it kind of borders Hertfordshire. But I mean, so it's, you know, quite a pace than the hustle and bustle of the town. But growing up as a Black individual, you kind of realise that life isn't, living a life as a Black person is, can be challenging, can be challenging. 

And so, for example, even today, 2025, only 4% of tech roles are occupied by Black people. 71% of white people, then there's other ethnicities that are involved. And and so that isn't right. 

And I'm not saying everyone's racist, or everyone doesn't give individuals a fair chance. But there's, but that still does happen, because significantly, people listening now might say, well, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't discount someone because of their colour. 

But trust me, it happens a lot of the time. So working with companies to make them more inclusive, and by giving them Black tech digital talents, for them to consider. I'm not for one second saying that hire someone because they're Black, just making them aware of look, here is a pool of individuals that have got the right skill set that have been overlooked, or they would like to be considered for the role. 

Have you got visibility of a pool of Black candidates based on the data suggesting that, you know, they're not being considered for roles? And companies like, well, okay, yeah, definitely, you know, we'll have access to that. So that's what I do through a community that I set up 18 months ago, nearly two years ago, called the Black Data Professional Network, the BDPN, which is the BDPN.com. So that's grown significantly, like 3000 individuals have now joined, free of charge to join. And we do upskilling webinars, we've got a mentor program, we've got a job board where companies can post their jobs. 

We've also got a CV database. So we've got nearly 500 CVs on there of experienced Black data, digital tech type professionals, who upload their CVs, and then we give access to employers to include that in their resourcing of talent so that can be included for consideration for various roles. And so companies such as Amazon AWS have come on board this year, British Airways, BT, oh my God, Zebra Technologies, Salesforce. 

So we're expanding that and to give employers access to, from a resourcing talent perspective, give them a wider pool of talent to choose from. So yeah, so that's what I do. It's not a commercial profit making business yet. 

It doesn't need to be, I'm doing it for, because it just feels right for me to do that for my people. And yeah, I'm massively, massively passionate about that. Because... And you're giving companies the opportunity to hire some really good people and sort of think about what their business looks like. 

What is my senior team looking like? Let's have some let's have some diversity, let's have some inclusion because it just works for a better business all round. I mean, you having all these great minds, great experiences from everywhere, whoever they are. And I think, yeah, it's a win-win. 

Yeah, definitely. It's the whole DNI spectrum, because it isn't just about Black individuals when you've got the LGBTQ community, you've got neurodiversity, there's disabilities. So having all these different individuals as part of your team, of your business adds value to the business. 

The data suggests that inclusive companies, they perform better on the bottom line because the individuals really feel as though they belong and they really buy into the ethos of the business and they perform better, resulting in a better bottom line. So yes, it's a win-win-win-win-win for everyone to kind of be more inclusive. But it's crazy. 

Some of the things, some of the feedback or some of the ghosting that I see from companies, it's just shocking. It really is. It really is.

And, but yeah, I think there's a lot happening with graduate schemes for ethnic minorities, which is fantastic. But the middle tier, like the 40k type person up to like 120k plus, that's where the issue is. Like the middle management, senior level, leadership teams, boardroom level, that's where there's not many Black faces. 

It's the same with football as well. So only 4% of Black footballers get management roles. And I mean, with, you know, 40 that dominate the 92 EFL football clubs. 

But if you look at the boardroom, there's no Black faces there. It's mad. It's just white. 

And there's no reason for it. I mean, it's just, so yeah, there's some... You might need to get involved there again. Well, I don't know, funny enough, I had a meeting with the PFA last week about it and about, I swear to God, yeah. 

So I had a meeting with them last week, three of them, three individuals from the PFA, about doing something similar by having the CV database on the PFA website. Because there's so many Black individuals, well not just Black, people of colour that have left the game and they can't get into like a backroom role or management role. So to give them some interview skills so they can know how to articulate themselves a bit better and then have the little videos of them and have the CVs on a database, essentially making clubs access that, that are hiring and say like just, you know, you've now got options to look at. 

Sometimes it is about that, isn't it? It's about asking for the job. Yeah. Asking for it and giving your candidates the confidence. 

Yeah. To say, yes, you can go for this. Yeah, of course you can. 

You'd be great. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Because a lot of them feel as though I'm not even going to bother trying because, you know, there's no one that looks like me that are in those positions, few and far between. So they're not even, they don't even bother trying. So helping them with the confidence and then giving them a window, giving the clubs a window for them to see and hear the candidates and have access to those candidates. 

It's something that we, you know, that we are, well, we're going to take it a step further. I had a meeting with them beginning of last week and I should have got back to them this week, to be fair, and I've had a chance to, but only for the next stage of the process. Well, what could this look like? So it's just initial conversations to see what that could look like. 

If anybody can do it, Ian, you can do it. So brilliant. I don't know about that. 

I don't know about that. I don't know about that. That's really nice, Darren. 

You're my number one fan. It's amazing. Thank you.

I am, because I know you, I know what you're capable of. So yeah, absolutely. And so that's great. 

And I'm glad that things have got, it sounds like you're getting some growth and traction and you've not lost your passion for it, which is brilliant because sometimes you can start these things and it can really grind you down because you feel you're not getting anywhere. But it sounds like you're moving and shaking, Ian. So I'm glad to hear that. 

Yeah, definitely. It's all going in the right directions. I think like anybody, I think we'd like to have quicker growth with the business, with what I'm doing with DEI, but I've had some really big wins. 

So for example, with AWS this week, British Airways towards the back end of last year and some really big companies that I've been speaking with from a digital exec perspective and also from a DEI perspective. So yeah, so there's loads of, there's some really good upsides, really good positive stuff happening. So, which keeps you motivated, right? You know, when you get some, when you get some wins. 

So if any enterprises, any businesses, companies want to get on board with this and think that sounds like a good idea, like, you know, give my hat, they just get in touch with you, Ian, maybe. Yeah, reach out to me, reach out to me and we could do a trial. So for example, from a DEI perspective, if they've got like a technical team, you know, whether it's like analysts, engineers, software people, et cetera, marketing people, and they're hiring and they would like to be more inclusive or have more visibility of what black talent is out there for them to choose from. 

I'm not for one second saying that hire them, you know, because they're black, just for consideration. So to add them into their pool of talent, then 100%. They've got their own merit.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's free of charge. I'll give them access within two minutes to the CV database and they can post a job and kind of go from there. 

So yeah, I'm open to that. I'm open to that. So the door is open, everyone. 

We'll put all the details, obviously, you know, when we send everything out to get in touch and things like that. But absolutely, these candidates come with their own merit. You're not asking for any favours. 

You're just saying, this is a consideration. Can you have a look at these guys? They're great guys. I think they'd be a good fit for your business, but also it's good for the company as well. 

You know, if you look around and you think, well, I would actually like some diversity in my business. Why not get in touch with you? 100%. 100%. 

Thank you, Karen. And what advice would you give to any guys coming in to the business now, to the digital world now? So young people, I know you support a lot of people, Ian, but what would you sort of advise them now? What should they be looking at? Yeah, so I would suggest that if they're looking for a job or just to try and make themselves visible, use platforms like LinkedIn to engage with individuals and companies that are of interest to them. So to use their own interests to leverage their development. 

So for example, if someone's getting into, someone's looking for a job or a change of job, is to get the free version for four-week trial on LinkedIn Sales Navigator or LinkedIn Recruiter or whatever it is, the upgrade for four weeks free of charge, which gives you more features, more benefits. You get more results in the search. You can reach out to more people. 

I think it's like a hundred people a week, but on the free version, it's like 30 people a week. So you can, you know, you could do more and to contact, follow people because you can follow someone who's of interest to you and without having to connect with them. So if you follow someone and then you can click the follow bell on that person's profile to receive all of their communications on that platform, and then you can engage with them. 

You know, I'm not saying everyone's on LinkedIn every day, but the people that you want to engage with or that you are interested in working for perhaps, follow those, follow the companies, follow other people in that team where you'd like to work and just kind of get visibility of them. Also to tap into referrals. So if you know somebody at a company you'd like to work for, ask that person to refer you. 

Tell them, hi, I know John or Jane, whatever it is. He or she would be a really good fit for the team. Here's a CV. 

So essentially to tap into people at the companies that you want to do business with or you'd like to work for. I think referrals are so powerful, so, so powerful. And they're not really utilized enough in the business world or the corporate world or employment world in terms of getting jobs. 

And to always be upskilling, always, there's so many free things you can do to learn, to upskill, to build your own personal brand, to share knowledge, just share, give things away, share what you know, and just be a good person. Yeah, absolutely. Be a good person, of course.

I must admit, Ian, that's great advice about referrals because I know if somebody refers somebody to me as an advisor, then I absolutely, I'm sort of almost sold on that person before I even see them. I mean, that's good. If I, you know, if I'm thinking I need a new advisor, somebody says, I've got this great person for you. 

Fabulous. Definitely, definitely. Get a mentor depending on where they are because everyone's different depending on where they are on their journey in their career, whether they're just getting into their career or their mid-level career. 

Find someone who's done what they want to do and say, look, would you give me like, you know, can I speak to you once a week, once a month for half an hour, 45 minutes about what you did about this, this and this. And so, yeah, reach out to people. People love talking about themselves in terms of how they did things. 

So, find somebody that has done what you want to do and reach out to them and say, look, you know, can you help me out? Can you give me some guidance? And that's from a business point of view or from a career development perspective, I think is really, really valuable. Thank you, Ian. And so, your podcast, can't leave without talking about your podcast. 

Now, I have to say, listeners, that when I started my business years ago, and this is the reason I really advocate for Ian Benjamin because he's a true supporter of people. I was on your podcast and I was nervous as hell and I hadn't long been in business, but you really supported me. And do you know what was great, you made me feel that, oh, somebody's taking me really serious. 

And I love that. I've never forgot it. And it was a great experience. 

It pushed me out of my comfort zone, because I think it was my very first podcast. I mean, it was quite a few years ago now, probably four years ago, if not more. Yeah, it was at least, yeah. 

I think it was three or four years ago. But I've never forgot it. And I've always appreciated that support from you. 

And I just wanted you to know that. So, that's what I got out of it. And I was going to say to you, what do you think other people get out of your podcast? Because I know you try and do a whole range of different ones.

Yeah, I've not done one for a couple of years. I've not done one for a couple of years, because I just got kind of, I wanted to kind of really boost it more. And it just kind of, I need to revamp it. 

And I've just never got back around to doing it, if I'm being honest. But I loved it. We've done probably the best part of like 50, 60 episodes. 

We've done really well. And it really did help elevate me into raising my credibility to win a few clients and candidates, etc. So without a doubt, so if anyone's on the fence about it, I would definitely do it. 

And I probably will start it up again. But yeah, you know, so helping people out, and especially if you see that they're genuine individuals, and I've got a good proposition like you have, then it's natural for me to kind of like to get behind it. And you're a lovely person, do you know what I mean? You're a really, really nice person. 

So yeah, it just made sense for me to say, yeah, definitely listen to Karen, she's doing this, and to get under the skin of the business. It was a real help. And that's you, this is why you've got in, you know, in your business everywhere. 

And I think it's great. And I think, you know, you say about, be nice, be kind. Sorry, you said something on, you know, before about just be yourself and be be cool.

Then I think that's what does come over with you. Definitely. And so you're six foot 10 in getting away from that. 

I know people can't see you. I'm a giant, yeah, yeah, giant. So my dad's six foot six, my mum, five foot 10. 

So yeah, I'm a big guy, big guy. I would have been really, really, really tall, six foot 10, quite a big guy. So I'm not like a beanpole, luckily. 

And so yeah, so growing up through school, always the biggest, I think I was like six foot five when I left school. And then I had another growth spurt. So yeah, six foot 10. 

So you know, everywhere I go, it's a talking point. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And then some people just can't, can't get over it. 

You get those individuals that just can never ever go over it because it's so unusual. Then you get individuals that don't even care. And then you get individuals that are like, oh my God, wow, I may, you know, whatever. 

And then they kind of, then they're okay with it. Do you know what I mean? But some people just never, ever just can't even, just can't get over it because they'll go through years of living without seeing anybody my height. And so yeah, it's a massive talking point and which I, you know, went through years when I was, I suppose, being totally transparent when I suppose my late teens, I was kind of like growing really rapidly and that was a bit uncomfortable because really kind of self-conscious, but then you just kind of begin to kind of, you know, you just kind of grow into yourself. 

I don't care no more. I just, I love it. Just like, it's just, that's just who I am. 

And it is, it is what it is. So, but I know some, you know, some individuals that have really been told to struggle with it, but I mean, I think that it's so unusual to be super, super tall, but, but yet it's just the people who know me just like, oh yeah. Absolutely. 

I mean, you, you've got to embrace it, haven't you? Because I get that as a teenager, we all feel really awkward. So if there's something that, you know, anything that points us out, we're like, please, no, no, don't want that. Don't want it. 

So I can imagine that, but Ian, you're a really confident, intimate person and yeah, it's great. And it is who you are. And of course that makes you this unique character, of course.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think so. 

Yeah. And I'm sure when people meet you, certainly in a professional world, I'm sure that they understand the gravitas of it. They understand, yeah, this guy is the, means business. 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, you know, I'm a gentle giant. 

I think I'm a gentle giant. And yeah, you know, I just, people don't forget who I am, but not in a horrible way, just because I think, oh my gosh, you know, this huge black guy, I'm just unbelievably huge, humongous individual. Do you know what I mean? So.

You're tall, you're tall, you're there, you're striking, you know, nobody's going to miss you. That's great. That is a real asset. 

That is brilliant. And I have to talk to you about drums because I watched, I watched something. I don't know if it was on Facebook or Instagram. 

I can't remember. And there was something and you were playing some drums and I didn't know you did that. I know you're really mad about music, but what, when did you start that? When I went to high school, do you know what the actual truth is? When I was at junior school, I went to a junior school called Bushmeet in Luton and the adjoining high school is called Stopsley. 

And in the last year of primary school, that band, the brass band at the high school came down to the junior school. And I was there watching the band, was sitting down with my mates and the drummer, a guy called Glenn Clark, who's a professional drummer now, he's, you know, heard that snare drum, that on the snare drum, that was it for me. I just fell in love with it.

I just loved that sound. I was like, Oh my God, that is it. And I was hooked. 

And I watched him like, just like, you know, for the whole 90 minutes, however long they played for, I don't know how long it was. And that was it. I just fell in love with drums. 

And then, so I heard that, that, that snare, but that was it for me. So when I went to Stopsley, I met up with the band leader, Mr. Evans, God bless him. I said, I want to be a drummer and play the drums. 

He said to me, well, I've only got two snare drums and we've got the kettle drums. And he goes, you can learn the kettle drums because the two snare drums are taken out. Sorry, there's three. 

So I was like, Oh, okay, whatever. So, so I learned the kettle drums, really, really, really, really kind of boring, just going boom, boom, boom. And I really wanted to play the snare drum. 

So I've got a little practice pad and my parents said to me that, you know, if you keep practicing on a practice pad and you get to a certain standard, then we'll get you some drums. So, so that was it. I was focused on that. 

Then I got my first little drum kit and this kind of went from there really. So I started playing in bands. I got into the school band, playing the snare drum. 

So it was good because you learn to read music. And then, so I've joined, I've been in several bands. But nowadays, what I do nowadays, I'm, I play percussion. 

So I play the congas, which are the long bongos. I play those with my hands and also with sticks and timbales and whatever. So, so that's what I do. 

So I'm a big lover of house music, not trancey, diggy, diggy, diggy, not that sort of music, but the proper house, soulful house music. I love it. And so I play along with the DJ. 

So I accompany a DJ in clubs, whatever, and as a percussionist. So I don't play over the music, I actually accompany the music. And that's what I love to do. 

So, so yeah, I'm just getting out there more as the, as the, the Funky Giant is my, is my percussion name, the Funky Giant. So, but yeah, that's it really. So, you know, because, you know, because I'm getting, getting on, getting on a bit now. 

And some of my mates have had, you know, strokes and, or lost their lives, whatever, and so forth and other bits and pieces. And so a couple of years ago, I thought to myself, that could be me. And I don't want to have no regrets. 

So that's what I thought I'm going to start playing again, because I've not played properly for years. And so it's only the last two, three years, I've started playing percussion again, or playing drums again, essentially. And because I don't want to look back, I think, shit, sorry for swearing, but I can't do that. 

Now I'm too old or whatever, or I've had a stroke or whatever. So yeah, so I'm just, I'm just really kind of reinventing myself or doing what I can before I get too old. Yeah. 

Great advice, Ian. That is the best advice. We are finishing, so it's great advice to end on. 

So it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you. I could talk to you for hours, to be quite honest. Yeah, likewise, because I know you're, you're a big music fan, aren't you? Because I mean, you always go to gigs and stuff all over the place. 

Oh, I love it. I love music. I absolutely love everything. 

And, you know, lots of genres, but yeah. Like indie rock stuff, is that right? I'm going to see Jumeiroquai in Lyon this year in about October, November time. Yeah, we've got tickets for that.

Oh, I love it. And so we're having a little jolly over a weekend in Lyon and see Jumeiroquai. Yeah, he's amazing. 

He's amazing. JK, yeah, he's fantastic. And he's got a great drummer, Roger plays for him. 

A lovely, lovely guy. But yeah, Jumeiroquai is acid jazz. I love it.

Absolutely love that sort of stuff. And he's a lovely guy as well, Jumeiroquai. Do you know what I mean? He's a really good guy. 

Yeah. He does the Montreux, doesn't he? He does that festival. Yes. 

I saw him years ago. We lived in Atlanta many, many moons ago and he'd done a gig there. We saw him and I remember going, oh boy, he's in the crowd. 

I remember shouting it and he was like, what? Yeah, but yeah, he's fantastic. I love it. I love his music.

Oh, I shall look forward to that, Ian. And before you go, I need to ask you, so I know family's mega important to you, but music is important to you. It's a big part of your life.

What is the song that gets you on the dance floor? What is that one song that you hear, it hits and there you are? There's so many. I mean, Jumeiroquai's good. So you could say Space Cowboy. 

Space Cowboy, Jumeiroquai. This is the return of the Space Cowboy. I won't sing. 

I really won't. No, I will after a few jeans, but maybe not now. And I think, yeah, sounds okay, but I really don't. 

I could see you on a dance floor, Karen. I could see you just shaking, doing your thing. I could totally see you on there after a few jeans, flicking the hair back, giving it some. 

I absolutely will be. I will enjoy every moment of it. As you say, Ian, you know, live every moment, do it now. 

Don't hesitate. And that's a good message to end on. Thank you for having me.

Well, absolutely. It's been an absolute pleasure. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, I'll leave all the details and everything. 

So it's Ian Benjamin from Digital Execs. And this is Karen from Art Trek Factory signing off. Bye, Ian.

All right. You take care. Thanks, Karen.