Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
TRIGGER WARNING -
THIS PODCAST CONTAINS THE STORIES & EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCES OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE. CONTENT MAY BE TRIGGERING.
Welcome to "Conversations with my Sisters' Keepers," dedicated to normalizing the trauma recovery experience of survivors of complex trauma and gender-based violence (GBV). We bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors. By sharing authentic stories and experiences, we hope to break down stigma, promote understanding, and celebrate the self-discovery within healing.
Together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
Let’s build a community of understanding and empowerment—one conversation at a time.
SUBSCRIBE NOW - DON'T MISS A SINGLE EPISODE!
Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
Dina Unger (Part 2) Empowering Survivors: Self-Worth, Self-Care, and the Strength of Support Systems
Can self-worth exist beyond productivity? Join us for an intimate conversation with Dina Unger, the executive CEO and co-founder of Even For, who bravely shares her journey through recovery and self-care. Dina opens up about the profound challenges survivors encounter when seeking support and how essential genuine listening is for their healing. Emphasizing the therapeutic power of activities like diamond art and the foundational role of having a support system, she paints a vivid picture of how accessible mental health care and being seen as an overcomer are pivotal in the recovery process.
Our discussion takes a closer look at the nuances of self-care and wellness, particularly for survivors grappling with the belief that their worth is tied to how productive they are. From balancing emotional and physical health to navigating conditions like hypokalemia, Dina's candid reflections offer valuable insights into recognizing personal limits and practicing self-compassion. The episode underscores the importance of supportive relationships and faith, encouraging listeners to adopt healthier coping mechanisms and embrace self-acceptance.
We also explore the intersection of professional roles and personal trauma, shining a light on the significant impact of allyship in survivor advocacy. Dina shares real-life experiences that reveal the deep connections made during vulnerable moments and the importance of not underestimating survivors' strength. Celebrating the efforts of organizations like the Salvation Army and the Canadian G100 anti-human trafficking initiative, this episode champions the power of collaboration and the critical role of active listening in empowering survivor leadership. Join us for an empowering discussion on the importance of humility, genuine support, and the incredible strength found in unity.
Welcome to Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers, the podcast where we bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors.
I'm Shamin Brown, and together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
hi, dina, I'm really happy to have you here today. You were telling me about where you're coming from and how this how who you are has shaped the work that you do and how some of the experiences that you've had have shaped your passion. Yeah, and you talked in the beginning about some professional challenges that you had noted. That kind of happens out there in the industry. I'm just curious if that was also part of some of the challenges you experienced as you were moving into this work and moving out of earlier stages of recovery.
Speaker 2:Remind me, because my brain's not recalling what I said.
Speaker 1:Just speaking about that need to protect survivors and some of the barriers that they run into and the ways that agencies can be engaging with survivors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is hard If you look personally. It's hard for us to look in the mirror ourselves, let alone for organizations to look in the mirror as well. And so many organizations that generally they do want to do good, they want to help. So many organizations that generally they do want to do good, they want to help. They just don't like to hear from survivors that they're not doing enough. And that's part of where do I go with this Diminishing the voices of the survivors and brushing them off as victims.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rather than allowing their voices to stand as reality Again. Yes, a person may be in a mindset or a reality of victimhood. They have a valid and right voice in place, so listen. The point is, how do you step back and how do you genuinely listen to the people that you are trying to serve and listen with a heart to change and adapt, because that is what's going to change everything.
Speaker 1:I love that, and so what's helped most in your recovery?
Speaker 2:Oh man, adopted family, community, my marriage having a person that, for better or worse, is always there has been an incredible blessing. We've learned together, we've grown together, we've triggered each other, we have talked deeply on how to walk better together, and it's been hard but good. I lots of books have helped over the years. Lots of books have helped over the years. I will say this one of the biggest deficits that I've faced is access to genuine mental health care. Part of my struggle stepping out when I did and not really knowing or understanding what had happened to me until many years later I didn't qualify for services that many survivors do, and so that that's a struggle. I I we have been a single income family since early on in our marriage and since I became a mom, so being able to afford counseling is almost laughable. I don't have $180 a session per whatever. It's just never been accessible for me.
Speaker 2:I've done a lot of searching myself because of the nature of who I am. I'm tenacious, I'm determined. I don't take no for an answer For myself. I spent a lot of time researching self care and how to ground myself and how to walk out those things and reading a million different articles and things like that, to figure out how to do it, and at the same time, I have had people step into my life in unofficial roles that have helped me see myself and genuinely see myself not as a victim, not as a survivor, but actually as an overcomer and as a thriver. And being able to move from those different spaces has been hard, but good as well. Really, that's what's made for me. The difference is a lot of determined learning, but I will say this if there was resources available to me for counseling now, I'd probably jump all over it, because there is a lot I don't know and a lot that I would still love to learn for how to grow and better myself.
Speaker 1:So, yes, I hear that. I hear that. So, on that note, we'll talk later. Reminder that I do offer some free brain spotting to survivor leaders.
Speaker 1:Roger, that you talked about self-care, you talked about grounding, just finding ways to stay balanced people and mentors I think something that really stood out for me, that I'm like a firm believer in too, is the idea that other people had to believe in you before you could believe in yourself.
Speaker 1:They had to love you before you could love yourself. These are things that I used to say right, that's what made a difference for me is people who really saw what I couldn't, and even when I wasn't behaving or acting in those ways, they still treated me as F and it really forced me to step into that and believe that, and I like how you framed it. You said they helped me see myself right, because trauma distorts how we see ourselves and we really struggle to be able to acknowledge our strengths Absolutely and the things, even our dreams. Sometimes we won't even allow ourselves to acknowledge our dreams because we don't think we're good enough or we don't think we deserve them. And so having folks that do think you're good enough and you deserve that when you don't think that is, I believe so important because it helps you have that encouragement to continue moving forward.
Speaker 2:It's incredibly empowering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, overcomer and thriver. I like that too. That was beautiful. So what are some of the things that you do for self-care?
Speaker 2:So this is going to sound a little silly I have fallen deeply in love with something called diamond art or dot art, but diamond art and it's these little dots or little squares that form a big, ginormous picture. And it's the idea of pixelation, everything being broken down and then putting those pieces on individually and forming a picture. And for me it can be incredibly healing as I'm going through it, because it's a very purposeful process and it's slow and it's steady and it often takes me months to finish one piece of art. But at the same time, honestly, one, yeshua is always speaking to me and two, my brain is always looking at it and going what does this mean? And I've learned so much through it. I've learned that it's a process. We're all a work in progress and we are all a process every single day, and doing this reminds me that every single action that we take matters and it goes into forming the picture of who we're meant to be and it's just it's changed a lot. So for me, I love it. It also is just great to put a podcast on and just do it. It's very therapeutic.
Speaker 2:But that, as well as walking actually going for a walk is natural EMDR and that connects the right hemisphere to the left hemisphere and it is incredible for processing trauma. I deeply need that to go for a walk or to go for a run, but specifically going for a walk and just processing is incredible for me. Going outside when it's quote unquote not winter, and being able to put my bare feet in the grass and ground is incredibly helpful. Things like bilateral, like tapping back and forth, and things like that are amazing. Just those are some of my stuff. I have fidget toys that are with me anywhere and everywhere and that can help for dissociation and things like that to help you stay present and in the moments. And essential oils for me are a massive one. I have some that help deeply, depending on what mood I'm in or what I'm struggling with, that I always have accessible sitting in front of me every single day.
Speaker 2:So those are some that help deeply, just like being able to access your five senses and ground is just incredibly important.
Speaker 1:And it sounds like for you there's almost this crossover between self-care and grounding. Yeah, very much. Yeah. Yeah, and it sounds like for you there's almost this crossover between self-care and grounding. Yeah, very much yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and self-care goodness, that's a hard one. That's probably one of my biggest areas of struggle. I'll be real, very similar to yourself I'm a workaholic. I throw myself into everything that I do. And learning that it's okay Like I criticize myself when I don't accomplish everything that's on my list and learning that self-care actually is having grace, holding space for yourself to be that human being, to allow reality to exist. If you're having a day that triggers are heavier, if you're having a day that you're just tired and you haven't slept and the night before was constant flashbacks and you cannot do it today, being able to hold that space for yourself is incredibly important and I am learning. I will be completely blunt with that. I have not arrived, but I am learning that is incredibly valuable for we're just acknowledging how many spoons you've got, right.
Speaker 1:We think about spoon theory. Not just saying I only have two spoons and then still trying to push yourself to do five spoon work, but saying I only have two spoons and loving yourself through that and acknowledging that and honoring that the same way you did you would your child or a friend, right? Yeah, very much.
Speaker 2:But it's hard, it is really hard to do, oh, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah, the Center of Alcohol and Substance Use Studies by Rutgers Graduate School of Applied and Professional Psychology. They have infographs that I'm looking at here that I love, and it's based on Dr Peggy Swarbrick's eight wellness dimensions and essentially I feel like it really ties in very well with the medicine wheel. It's just more of like expansive or multi layered kind of depiction of it. However, I digress. So they talk about wellness in these eight different areas emotionally, financially, socially, spiritually, occupationally, physically, intellectually and environmentally.
Speaker 1:And as I'm hearing you speak throughout the interview, I can hear how an environmental change was good for you in the sense of the people that were in your space, but also being able to connect with nature and going for those walks. I'm hearing how, emotionally, you were able to develop like a really positive coping skills and subsets and satisfying relationships, especially those that are closest to you, those ones that are going to anchor you, that you have to go home to right, and the ones that you work with. Financially I do hear you saying, hey, man, when I'm not sure where finances are coming from. This is really interacting and interfering with the other areas of my wellness and I think that's really solid and it's really valid and it's really important for people to know, especially for us as survivors, because I know for myself. There's been times where it's made me want to go back to that work, not because I like it not because I think it's healthy, but because it can be quite lucrative.
Speaker 1:And when you're in a position of need and you have people relying on you, sometimes that's where your mind will go right. And if not, there then still other places. There's still a lot of stress. How am I going to feed my kid? I've only got food for three days. What am I even working for? It can affect your thought, life, all of those things. And that brings us to social right. Finances can absolutely affect our social, because what can we do and how do we do it?
Speaker 1:What I'm hearing from you is it sounds like again, having found those people that see you, having had those deep conversations, thoughtful, reflective conversations with your partner and others, even with yourself, has really created a space for you where you have a deeper sense of connection and belonging. Your foster family right, a well-developed support system. Spiritually. I hear you speaking of God. I'd love to dive into that a little bit more in a few moments. But that sense of purpose and meaning, right you speaking of God, I'd love to dive into that a little bit more in a few moments. But that sense of purpose and meaning right, that sense of direction, something that you can lean on as part of your coping Occupationally. You're living your dream right, You're doing the work that you love, and so you're pouring yourself into it, which can be. It's a great work thing that we do. So we do have to be careful occupationally. If we're satisfied with our work, we're enriched from our work we still lose ourselves there and that comes from those triggers.
Speaker 2:Just for anyone that is listening that doesn't truly understand trafficking in that aspect. But when you are a trafficking survivor, your entire value and worth was based on what you could produce and that entire response for survival goes into your life after. And it's very hard to get out of that mindset of who I am comes from what I do, and to separate those is incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah. And sometimes, even when it's first happening to us for those who are experiencing it in a more manipulative or coercive way there's almost because of the way we've been conditioned earlier in life through childhood experiences there's almost a part of us that believe that is our worth, that's what we deserve and that's what kind of makes us not tell someone or set boundaries, because it's just an extension of those beliefs and experiences from younger years. Yeah, another area of wellness that I hear you doing really well is that physical piece, right. So that's where we're talking about activities. So you're walking.
Speaker 1:I didn't hear you talk too much about nutrition.
Speaker 2:Okay, that is always a struggle, honestly, but no, I have. I have this supplement that I take every day. That is a huge blessing. When I cut out coffee, that made a massive difference for actually healing my adrenals. That was a big one.
Speaker 2:Nutritionally, it's been a long learning curve. I have something called hypokalemia, which means essentially my body does not keep potassium well and cortisol steals your potassium very quick. So when you are operating out of fight, flee freeze, fun, like all of those realities you're operating in high cortisol levels that are being produced, which steals vitamins from your body, and I learned very quickly that steals magnesium and potassium frighteningly fast. So for me it actually leads to paralysis. So I actually have had to learn the hard way what taking care of my body should look like, and so I eat high like I'm a vegetarian.
Speaker 2:Learning to do that in that aspect has been incredibly hard, but I've learned how to do it. And learning how to maintain it long term in stressful circumstances and life changing realities is harder, but it's been a journey for sure. It's very easy to slip back into survival mode, which is essentially I don't really care what I eat, I don't really care about anything, and that has been a learning curve for myself in many ways being able to be purposeful every single day with the vitamins and nutrients that I put into myself to maintain myself, to be able to stay healthy, and all the other aspects that you just listed, because you can't do any of those if you're laying flat out on a bed and can't move.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's also intellectual wellness and that's. I think you nailed it down really good when you said I had to teach myself about self care. I had to read these articles. I had to do this stuff, I know for myself.
Speaker 1:When I was first in early recovery I really struggled with content that was meant for adults and it wasn't that I didn't understand it or couldn't read it because I did, but I was not developmentally mature enough to apply it and I, literally I was like in my twenties to thirties I started to intentionally choose Bible devotionals, whatever I was into at the time, different things that were team-based, like even chicken soup for the soul, right, Team-based because I still had growing to do and I recognize I was still aware again, very intelligent, straight A student had my grade 12, blah, blah, blah, Like I was still aware of the dynamics, some of the more basic dynamics, of trauma and how there is a developmental delay and things like that.
Speaker 1:So I never really was hard on myself about it, but I absolutely recognized that enough, there hadn't been enough growing there and in order for me to receive anything out of this intellectual pursuit, like to learn more about myself and about faith and religions and all the things I was interested in. I needed to scale it down and and start at an intellectual level that felt comfortable instead of felt like work.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's that grace for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, self-compassion right Huge in this space and this experience and in life in general. Is there anything that you'd like to add, anything that got triggered for you that you'd like to share about in terms of your journey? Not that I can think of my last. Second to last question. Here is what's helped you in your professional journey as an advocate?
Speaker 2:oh goodness, can you be a little more specific in the question?
Speaker 1:yeah. Do you think there could be several different sub topics that would be under that right? For myself and my professional journey as an advocate, what's helped me again is people who see me. But another thing has been being given opportunities to lead, being given contract work. Not just having people see me, but having people believe in me and give me those opportunities being mentored, being advocated for, being mentioned in rooms. I'm not in for opportunities that I don't even think I can do, so that's helped me a lot. I also some like behind the scenes. Behind the scenes for me has been really important.
Speaker 1:So I was invited to do a podcast a bit ago and I was in a period in my own recovery and in my life because there was lots of personal stuff that was going on around me that I didn't necessarily have control over but just made me feel like my trauma had influenced a lot of what was going on and that it was all my fault Some family stuff, different things happening. So I just was feeling like what do I have to be in this work? Who am I? I can't even provide wellness for myself and my family. How can I be a champion of wellness for others?
Speaker 1:And I was invited to do this podcast and I was very insecure and I remember that person just taking the time to take me aside and sit with me, even sent me a song such a good song too about. I'm sensing that you're feeling a little insecure and that you're doubting your worth and I just want you to know. I think you're amazing and I learned from you and that's why you're here. You're here because you deserve to be. You're not here because you're a survivor. You're here because you're brilliant and you're a professional right, and sometimes I think we need to hear that because a lot of doors have opened for the wrong reasons in our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for sharing that, both personally, and that helps my brain engage a little bit easier. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of what you said is incredibly valid, incredibly true, and I can resonate very deeply with it. I think I'll just give an example and explain why. But I was at a conference last year and sitting in a session and all of a sudden I couldn't breathe, I couldn't think straight, just like heavily triggered, and there wasn't a trigger warning necessarily from the speaker.
Speaker 2:And being in that space where you're professional but also a survivor, is really hard sometimes. And so I realized like I, I can't, I cannot be here right now, and so I found myself dissociating, couldn't think straight, but I was also like I can't, I cannot be here right now, and so I found myself dissociating, couldn't think straight, but I was also like I don't think I can stand up and leave either, so it was stay there in that. And then there's somebody that was at that conference that I had just had one meeting with, essentially, but for some reason there was a connection with her, and so I grabbed her after that session and she came out and she sat with me and she just helped me ground and stay present and works for what that was and everything in that, which was incredibly valuable. So, like working with allies that might not be survivors themselves, but do understand survivors and do understand what it is to be in that professional space, while still dealing with our past.
Speaker 1:And that is an incredible blessing.
Speaker 2:Really, allies can be some of the most incredible blessings because they can see us, they can see who we are and our potential, and they can come alongside us and champion us in really amazing ways, and they can also create space for us to just be where we're at as well. And I will add to this, though, from that one of the worst things an ally can do is see you in that vulnerable place and then underestimate you down the road because of that and I've had that happen as well where you then are viewed through that broken mindset. You're viewed through that, the space that you are vulnerable and you can't do it right, and that is really debilitating, because a moment in time does not define who I am and what I will be down the road. And really, that for me is a big asset is don't underestimate me, but just stand beside me. And then, honestly, collaboration. In so many ways I have been so deeply blessed by others in this space that draw me in, whether they are survivors or not, and are like let's work together.
Speaker 2:And let's hold hands, let's work in our lane but find a way that our spaces can overlap and we can do better for survivors and really like I will say this, and I have shameless shout out to Salvation Army because for myself, they have welcomed me in collaboration with incredibly open arms and working with them?
Speaker 1:Is that Salvation Army in Winnipeg in Ontario Actually?
Speaker 2:in general. So I have connections in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba and they've just been amazing, and Mama Wee as well. Same thing, just incredible collaboration that I've experienced from them. So that heart is incredible and again, that mindset and understanding that in this space, as a professional, as an advocate, I am capable of great things but I still have limitations. And yeah, simultaneously championing while not holding me back is just amazing.
Speaker 1:So let me just ask you this last question, thinking about the goals of the Canadian G100 anti-human trafficking rate. So we have promoting lived experience leadership and autonomy, supporting the wellness of lived experience staff and volunteers, and developing survivor-led, survivor-informed survivor facilitated prevention and intervention programs, as well as identifying ally organizations that are invested in survivor leadership. How do you feel about those goals for the G100 Canada? Those are amazing. Are there gaps, are there barriers? Are there strengths?
Speaker 2:I think they're absolutely phenomenal and I'm excited I'm ridiculously excited to see three, five years, what that looks like and the picture that will form for survivors at that point yeah, really excited. I think what the G100 is doing amazes me. I think when I, when Celia specifically said, as queens, we need to stop fighting with each other and we need to start standing with each other. We need to open doors for each other and we need to open doors for each other, and that just my heart knew right then and there this was a safe place, because that is one of the biggest barriers that I really have seen is infighting and essentially gatekeeping and everything in that, and really allies and survivors being able to stand together and change the way that the entire counter trafficking movement is addressed is incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there anything you want to add to that?
Speaker 2:I think that's all my brain can grab right now.
Speaker 1:I know we're almost there. Yeah, I am so grateful, really honestly, for everything that you shared today. It's so powerful and it's important because I think that in this space, where we talk about these struggles with wellness, but also how, sometimes, when we're open and honest about that, we don't have the support that we need. Or maybe there are people out in the world who want to be that support, but I don't know how.
Speaker 1:The experience of gender-based violence is very loaded, but sexual exploitation and sex trafficking specifically, I feel they embody almost every form of gender-based violence that a woman can experience and it's very complex and it's very complicated.
Speaker 1:And when we're looking at how do we support those people, I think that it does go beyond just providing resources, because there's so many relational breaches. I believe again, that relationship is best for everybody, but there's a certain way to develop relationship with people and it really does start with being able to understand their experience, understand the things that they need for wellness, understand the struggles that they've had and the way that they're perceiving and experiencing things, but also hearing about what has helped and is working and being able to be a part of that learning experience for someone else if they don't already know those things about themselves, or reminding them of the path to wellness when they're struggling. So is there a person, an ally, that you'd like to give a shout out to that you feel embodies some of the goals of the G100? Or you'd recommend that survivors work with, oh goodness. So, again, not an organization. I do believe that organizations are formed by people, so I'm thinking more about people that you would give a shout out to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in Canada or the U? S or both. All right, in Canada, the U S or both, it's up to you. You only get one, I only get one. Oh, my word hey.
Speaker 1:I work in two countries. Let me have two Better wait till you come back. Oh my word, I would not know how to boil it down to one in all. You don't have to if you're uncomfortable in this field. Oh, I gotta pick. That's okay. Yeah, you've said a few names. You've said a few organizations. I just thought I'd give you an opportunity to do a quick shout out someone that's impacted you. I do recognize there is so many to choose from oh, there is.
Speaker 2:That's the thing I'm like. Is this like an ally or a survivor?
Speaker 1:and, like I would say, I'm looking for allies who, would you say, is a non no lived, experienced ally, someone who gets that, who gets the work, who gets this work, who gets this Survivor?
Speaker 2:leadership. I would say Cynthia Lovely from Shine. Okay, do you want to tell me a little more about her? She's amazing as an organization. They're insane, amazing, but their whole board is made up of survivor leaders.
Speaker 2:And she herself is not a survivor leader and in that her goal was to ensure that survivor voices were, first and foremost, the ones heard within her organization. And then she is. The whole entire basis of Shine is to look at survivors and as entrepreneurs, and empower them to be who they're meant to be, wherever they are, and so Cynthia embodies that. Her whole heart stands behind survivors. When she does mentorship, she is there with survivors. I just I cannot say enough amazing things about Shine and about Cynthia. She's been an incredible blessing in our life. We hired her as a consultant to help us launch our nonprofit and that was an incredible blessing. And, honestly, I know very few people that genuinely have the humility to admit that they don't know, they don't know everything, but at the same time, they are there to listen and to genuinely champion who survivors are and where they fit within their own spaces. Yeah, that would be one of she's one of my favorite people, honestly.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Cynthia from Shine. We love you and we appreciate you. Thank you, Dina Unger, executive CEO and co-founder of Even For.
Speaker 2:One Canadian G100 anti-human trafficking member and just all out warrior.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for coming and sharing with us. This is Real Women, Real Lives, Real Talk. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2:Conversations with Our Sisters Keepers. It was a blessing. Thank you for having me.
