Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
TRIGGER WARNING -
THIS PODCAST CONTAINS THE STORIES & EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCES OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE. CONTENT MAY BE TRIGGERING.
Welcome to "Conversations with my Sisters' Keepers," dedicated to normalizing the trauma recovery experience of survivors of complex trauma and gender-based violence (GBV). We bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors. By sharing authentic stories and experiences, we hope to break down stigma, promote understanding, and celebrate the self-discovery within healing.
Together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
Let’s build a community of understanding and empowerment—one conversation at a time.
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Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers
Dr Celia Williamson: Transformative Journeys in Empowerment, Recovery, and Global Leadership (Part 2)
Join us for an insightful episode where we promise you'll uncover the transformative power of lived experiences in the fight against human trafficking. We're thrilled to have Dr. Celia Williamson, a luminary in the anti-trafficking movement, sharing her profound journey from establishing Ohio's first anti-trafficking program to leading the Human Trafficking and Social Justice Institute. Dr. Williamson offers an inspiring look at how survivor-led movements and healing-centered approaches are reshaping recovery and advocacy. Her story is one of resilience and collaboration, illuminating the path from personal struggle to global leadership.
Explore the complexities of trauma recovery and the profound impact of recognizing lived experience as a form of expertise. This episode highlights the ongoing journey of overcoming imposter syndrome and shame, emphasizing the invaluable insights that come from firsthand experiences. Our discussion with Dr. Williamson extends to her role as global chairperson of the G100 anti-trafficking wing, where she unites women across the globe to foster supportive environments. Learn about the Emancipation Nation network and discover how platforms for recognition and opportunity are being created for women everywhere.
We also delve into the importance of building authentic connections in both personal and professional spheres. The conversation touches on balancing work with personal life, setting emotional boundaries, and the empowerment that entrepreneurship brings. Hear stories of triumph from those who've transformed adversity into success, like Jacob and Lashana, former students who now make significant impacts in their communities. Celebrate the harmonious coexistence of personal wellness and professional success, and be inspired by the power of persistence and self-belief in creating meaningful change.
Welcome to Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers, the podcast where we bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors.
I'm Shamin Brown, and together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey.
Hello, thank you for joining me today. I have with us Celia Williamson. Dr Celia Williamson has been engaged in anti-trafficking work for over 30 years. She has published numerous articles, books and reports. She founded the first anti-trafficking program in Ohio in 1993, and directly worked with victims in Toledo for several years. Dr Williamson possesses two doctorate degrees, one in social work and an honorary doctorate in social justice. During her career, dr Williamson brought three and a half million to the community for research and services. She co-hosts the oldest and largest annual academic conference on human trafficking in the world and has included representatives from all 50 US states and 60 countries. She founded the first anti-trafficking coalition in her county and has been named the 14th most influential social worker in the nation within the last 10 years. She ranks among the top 100 globally and historically. Currently she serves as the Executive Director of the Human Trafficking and Social Justice Institute at the University of Toledo. We are so happy to have her here with us today. One of my heroes, dr Celia Williamson. Nice to have you. Thank you for coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much, I mean, for doing this, and you, of course, are one of my heroes and I'm just so thankful to have the opportunity to be on here to talk about. You know, what I've done and what I do survivor leaders everywhere.
Speaker 1:This is part of our aim to challenge the stigma and judgment that many survivors encounter during their healing process. By sharing insights into our own recovery and wellness journeys and our knowledge of the recovery and wellness journeys of others, we can normalize the ongoing and cyclical nature of the recovery experience. We're really feeling that it's time to advance beyond trauma-informed and resilience-based narratives of surviving, thriving and leading, and to embrace a healing-centered focus on wellness and recovery to the table, to the community, to society.
Speaker 2:We really can begin to normalize the fact that there are a number of us on a healing journey from whatever may have happened, and if we can normalize that, we can open the doors and we open the doors, we can all open our hearts. And, you know, we can do better work instead of work undercover. We can kind of do work very authentically. I love the idea that this should be a survivor-led movement and anybody who is genuinely concerned about this issue and not their own egos will know and understand that that is the goal. To know and understand that that is the goal. To help those folks gain their voice, power in their voice, lead movements, lead programs. That is the goal, so that the rest of us can go and be a support.
Speaker 2:Some of us are too interested in leading and using our egos. Our egos go before us and that gets us in trouble. And I don't think many of us even understand the real definition of collaboration or that you don't always have to be the leader. I make a pretty good follower too. I love to follow good leaders. So, yeah, I think those goals set your country, in my opinion, on the right path.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I love that, celia, before I had kind of asked you a little bit about your lived experience and what that looked like, in both expertise and education, in both supporting and perhaps even having survived abuse, trauma, addictions, mental health any of those types of challenges. Yeah, so there's some systemic violence, some racial violence, some hermeneutic hermeneutic, I'm like struggling with that word violence, some hermeneutic hermeneutic, I'm like struggling with that word.
Speaker 1:But you know this idea that, because of who you are, you know less and being provided less epistemic injustice as well right, being provided less access to your knowledge. And I, you know, hearing your story, I think how amazing to see where you are today as a doctorate oh my God, I will never do that. Where you are today as a doctorate oh my God, I will never do that. Someone who has their doctorate has like it's grueling. And to know that you grew up in an environment that basically told you that you could never be, that, that you shouldn't even try to be, that is, you know, very powerful and profound. You were talking about being in school and kind of having that distraction from dealing with domestic violence. And then you know being in school and kind of having that distraction from dealing with domestic violence, and then you know being in school another time without that distraction. It's never that you weren't capable, right, it's that you didn't have the safety to be able to grow and learn yes, it's hard to convey to people that that is the core.
Speaker 2:you, you have to begin to step forward and I know that little voice in you that has said don't do it. Or. I'm afraid. It has served to protect us, of course, when we were vulnerable or we're still fearful, but sometimes you just have to have that hardheadedness, what I call it, that not listening to those people who have you pegged and saying you are about this, because you know that you're multifaceted and you know that you're multi-talented and so you know, I you got to start turning that voice up a little each time. But I mean, I remember you doing talking, talking about the podcast and then putting the pieces in place and now doing the podcast. So you know, it's just, it's good to for the audience to understand that people still get to that threshold and still fear or whatever will take over, but they just end up pushing through it and doing it. So you know, but they just end up pushing through it and doing it.
Speaker 1:So you know there is that imposter syndrome. You just got to do it anyways.
Speaker 2:I've done the same thing at the university. I, you know, got my PhD, got a job at the university, started the conference, which is now in its 22nd year, and the name of the conference. The conference is the Human Trafficking and Social Justice Conference and people can find it at traffickingconferencecom.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, and I'll just say that the conference is one of my favorites. It's something that I talk about quite a bit, and I just want to kind of highlight what I find is very unique about it, which caused me to fall in love with it the first time I came, and there's a couple different pieces. First is the open invitation and the prioritization of lived experience. Experts having lived experience people come in and share their knowledge. But you know, alongside that is that we're not getting locked into this polarization of values.
Speaker 2:That is exactly what we do and that's why we call ourselves an academic conference, and people don't always understand that distinction. But an academic conference is not a political conference where everybody comes together and everybody agrees and everybody reaffirms what everybody agrees. An academic conference challenges you to say here are people that you might not agree with, here are people you definitely don't agree with. Listen to them, because if you sit and listen you might walk away thinking, okay, I got to expand my mind to incorporate this new way of thinking. Or I walk away saying that's why I don't agree with that side. But now I walk away understanding that side's point so that I can be clear in what I don't agree with.
Speaker 2:And again it goes back to like we're starting conversations, and again it goes back to like we're starting conversations, yeah, and I think if people aren't at the table, then you're missing a vital piece. If you say we don't want to deal with people who are pro-sex work, we don't want to deal with them, so we're just going to exclude them and we're going to do our own thing, then you miss the boat Like you can't. You know, we do this all the time in in the field of human trafficking or interpersonal trauma or whatever. You know we do that all the time.
Speaker 2:But if we, if we thought of it like this, if we thought, oh, these these Black people, you know I'm going to pick on myself because I'm Black. If I said, well, we're these Black people, you know I'm going to pick on myself because I'm Black. If I said, well, these Black people, we need to help the Black problem. So we're all going to get together but we're going to exclude those Black people because they are loud and boisterous and they're offensive and they make me uncomfortable. So I want to be comfortable, I want to address the issue, but I want to be comfortable first and foremost. So you can't come to the table to talk about the issue. I mean, when you put it in those terms. It sounds ridiculous.
Speaker 1:So you have to have conversation with people that make you uncomfortable that make you uncomfortable, like that's some narrow thinking that's actually going to exclude a lot of allies and a lot of people from doing the work that we feel needs to be done for our communities. Yeah, so, I think it's always important to have that open mind and be ready to listen to the folks you least want to listen to, because there's learning there.
Speaker 2:That's right, exactly. And I'm telling you know what we experienced at the conference for many of the first, the beginning years, with women, particularly who were in pro-sex work, who fought and fought and fought us. And we said you know what? Our sword is down? We're laying our weapons down? We don't have, but they fought us, fought us, fought us until they understood oh wait, you're not, you're not fighting us and it's like, no, we're not fighting you. But I understand that.
Speaker 2:Again, going back to my experience with oppression, it's like when you first encounter people who are willing to listen you, you don't understand and you don't always come with a good spirit about that.
Speaker 2:You've been caged, you've been oppressed and damn it, somebody is going to listen to me and they're going to, and here's my thoughts and they're not pretty and I'm going to tell them to you and that's fine, like I understand that because I experienced that myself. So you know, for many years we had that and now we have survivors that help sponsor the conference. We have abolitionists that sponsor the conference. We have sex worker rights people that sponsor the conference because they understand this is about bringing a national and now global conversation to bear and then walking away with those fruits of you know the many different fruits that you can pick from. So it takes time. I know growing up, you know, when I was experiencing all those doors closed to me and as soon as somebody opened the door to me, man, they heard about it and they were my ally, but they heard about it until they were able to show me that you're really genuinely trying to support me.
Speaker 1:They can be trusted. I think, like what I'm hearing you talk about is the lack of trust that comes when you've been victimized, like how many people have been nice to you and that's ended up being, you know, kicking me in the teeth right. It's like so, even if you're listening and you're inviting me to the table, how are you going to abuse me? How are you going to use me? How are you going to exploit me? I can't let my guard down until I know that you're safe.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Right. Your intentions are not enough, but when I experience your impact, I may trust you.
Speaker 2:That's right. And that's what it is to understand trauma and the effects of trauma, and having a lived experience being authentic.
Speaker 1:And having a lived experience being authentic, I can understand that without having to read it Because I've done it. Well, it's a lived experience and I think you know again, we're thinking and talking about the value of lived experience within the context of this podcast. I feel it's so important to understand that journey, to understand the imposter syndrome, the shame, because those things, again, don't go away. It's an ongoing recovery experience. But the reason that it's important to know that and to be willing to invest in and supporting that experience and moving people into wellness is because there is so much value in lived experience.
Speaker 1:You cannot ever in your life and I am not apologetic about this understand trauma and sexual exploitation to the depths that I do not from reading a book.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 1:15 years of being trafficked and even somebody else who's been trafficked right beside me for 15 years, their lived experience, what they know. We're going to have some similar experiences, yes, but we we're going to have some similar experiences, yes, but we're also going to have some really different ones. You know, I have a girlfriend who was at risk and her lived experiences, the things that made her vulnerable to trafficking, is very different from the things that made me vulnerable. And so in that context, even though we may have, in the trade, had some similar experiences ran into similar people. Our lived experience, our knowledge and understanding of the factors emotionally, psychologically, physically involved in that experience are different. And I can read a textbook and I can tell you that there's parts of that textbook that do not reflect my experience or are not accurate, which is again why it's important to listen to lived experience people, it's important to have them leading these changes, but it's ultimately important that we just value the epistemic knowledge and strength of lived experience people and start to recognize that that is a doctorate degree.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that is so critical. If you're not opening the door, if you're not doing everything you can to support and lift up, it's like well, what are you here for? What are you here doing? I mean, my goal is, of course, as you may know, because I've told everybody in the world is to sit down by the beach and drink my glass of wine. That's what. That's my ultimate goal. I mean these people talking about oh, you work so hard, you got two doctors. No, you, you have lost. What fun is? Fun is sitting at the beach. What are you talking about, talking about? So my ultimate goal is to have survivors, lived experience, experts running things so that I feel comfortable, that it is going to be authentic and it's going to be, you know, well done, getting the right people in the right places and, and you know, to reward the work that you've done in paving that path with rest right, like to return to rest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes that's the goal there's a couple things that I want to just. You know, still on expertise, some of the things that you're doing in this work. I know that there's two other things that I really want to like. There's so many, but there's two other things that I really want to just touch on. So you have a curriculum out and then, if you want to just share a little bit about what it's like to be the global chairperson of the G100 anti-trafficking wing, yeah, well, I'll start the G100, I, I'll start there is so fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:It's still swirling around in my head. I still feel a little bit lost, to tell you the truth, but it's. It's bringing women together from around the globe. So, of course, you were the first person I thought of and there's, you know, a couple of women now I've gotten to know from different countries and we're really just designing the path. You know, it's like we're pioneers again, we're sort of blazing the trail, and what it will look like I don't know, because we are designing as we go right. So I mean, just, I'm thinking I have a grant that I'm going to be talking to you about too, because it's a. It's a it's a global grant that I want to submit. That's due in January. So that may be something.
Speaker 2:But how this thing takes shape, I'm not sure. But the goal is to really lift women up and organize and reward and give voice to, because one of my issues, when I do see women and uplift them with whatever it might be certificates, awards, presentation You've got to have these accolades as well so that society will open doors. I mean, this is the game we're playing. I see women so talented, but they're humble, and so part of that is to give them a global stage and then let them shape it the way that they want to. Now, the courses that I have we have an Emancipation Nation network and anybody can Google that and they can go on there, and there are free webinars about human trafficking and different components, and we have paid courses there, one of them's on case management that I do, one of them's on a prevention curriculum for youth. My latest is a book that I wrote called the Survivor's Journey, and it is 12 healing journeys from interpersonal traumas Healing Journeys from Interpersonal Traumas and a workbook and I'm training facilitators. I'm in the women's prison here it's a state prison for women in Ohio and I'm doing a randomized control trial because I want to create an evidence-based model. And once I create this evidence-based model, I can start getting it out into the world Because at least here in the US, most of our cities, child welfare, for instance, child protection in about 85% of the child protection cases there's domestic violence present.
Speaker 2:There's domestic violence present. Sexual assault you know, interestingly, you're mixed, I'm mixed, and that's like one of the highest rates of women who are sexually assaulted are biracial and multiracial Domestic violence, intimate partner violence, all of those traumas. Of course, women in prison are disproportionately victims of those crimes before they went to prison. So being able to create an evidence-based model is what governments or state agencies will look toward, not just you know. I think this is great. I evaluated, or somebody evaluated it. But to create an evidence-based model means that it could be listed on different state or government websites so that people know where to get it when they're looking for something that is evidence-based. So that's what I'm working on now. That's what I'm working on now Very much like a program where you're going through 12 healing journeys, but you're really working as fast or as slow as you want to through each journey, and each journey really focuses on different things, like trust that we talked about or relationship, or you know all of those things.
Speaker 1:So you have an evidence-based training already for working with youth as well. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:It's been evaluated a couple of times I mean I have to do a randomized control trial on that but it's showing some really good results in the juvenile court system where it's being used. And so, yeah, I like to say I use my science and service, so I like to use my research skills to help people. Otherwise, I'm not interested in a study that's going to go on a shelf in a book and collect dust.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's wasting your life, Right exactly.
Speaker 2:What's the point of that?
Speaker 1:so yeah, yeah, so that's what I'm into. So how do people like, how do they do you have like a website or something that has everything that you offer, where, if someone's like I'm interested in Emancipation Nation, like, they just go find you and all of that's?
Speaker 2:there they can go. They can actually Google Emancipation Nation Network and you can join. And you can join for free right now. I mean it's going to be in some months we're going to charge a little fee, but right now you can join free and then you can get all the webinars for free. There are courses that you can pay for, but there are a lot of webinars that you can pay for, but there are a lot of webinars that you can just take those for free. There's over 1200 people from across the US and around the world. You can network with them. You can message anybody. It's like a little closed Facebook kind of.
Speaker 2:So yeah, people post things in there. So it's sort of like a way to get connected in a community that's interested in what you're interested in If you're interested in social justice and human trafficking work and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome, ok, and then the podcast has the same name, so the podcast is called Emancipation Nation, so we have over 200 episodes there nation, so we have over 200 episodes there. I'm gonna start back in january, and so there's lots of good information there from different experts, whether they're lived experts or researchers or programmers. So beautiful.
Speaker 1:You are just like. I don't know if you hear yourself, but there are so many things happening you've done like ah, as I said, my hero. I don't know how you juggle all the balls and I mean, I'm still excited.
Speaker 2:I'm excited, I love doing, I love creating, I love helping people. And you know, I have a a new little grandson. He's two years old now. So that's why I stopped the podcast for a year, because I thought, shoot, what am I doing? I want to go play with him.
Speaker 1:So I, so I'm doing that Well, and that's part of our wellness. Right Again, I think that those, especially as we age, the values start to shift. Like you, know, what I've made, as much money as I'm going to make. I'm got as much education as like. What do I have now in terms of when I'm older and I want to focus on family right? What can I give them? How can I be there? How can I show up?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:To kind of set some of those boundaries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, my daughter is. She's moved back in, brought the grandson home secretly. We're tickled to death. We love it. And every single day I get to wrestle. He growls at me and it's like come on, grandma, it's time to wrestle. And I'm like, okay, I'm his best wrestle buddy. So let me tell you, out of all this stuff I do, that's the best thing to do.
Speaker 1:And in the research that I'm doing, that actually has popped up that family, in terms of social wellness, is one of the most important pieces for folks who you know. You're going into the world, you're trying to establish emotional safety. You have this history of victimization, there's stigma, a healthy, you know, social support system within your family and friends, that you have what you need to kind of maybe not thrive but to survive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely At least one, one person you adopt as a family member. You know huge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cecilia. What are some of the things in early career versus now that you struggled with around wellness?
Speaker 2:Well, my early career I think I struggled with you know, I thought I had to work, work, work. When it finally clicked in that I can be successful, that somebody has opened the door, that that I can run through it and I can be successful at school and I can be successful, that somebody has opened the door, that I can run through it and I can be successful at school and I can be successful at work. And I got that in my head like work, hard, work, hard, work hard. And I was always unsure and always having to feel like I had to prove myself worthy. And that was my struggle early on.
Speaker 2:And I proved myself and I went through all the gates and I've done all the things and at my university I've gone from, you know, assistant professor to associate professor to full professor. Like people who come to university they think they call teachers professors, but really there's a lot of hoops to get to that level. And you know, once you get the full professor, there's distinguished professor and you know I've done that and it's. You know there's about 25 percent of professors actually become full professors and probably less than 10% become distinguished professors and and I don't know how many are women or how many are women of color even smaller?
Speaker 1:So how many are women of color with a history of domestic violence that were raised in a school setting that didn't want to teach them and even how to read and write properly?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you know. So I feel pretty, I feel pretty blessed, I feel pretty accomplished. And now my struggle is, you know, do this because you enjoy it. Do this because it makes a real difference. I'm no longer chasing grants and publications. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. Real difference. I'm no longer chasing grants and publications, it doesn't matter. Do it because it makes a difference. Do it because you enjoy it. And the moment I get myself caught up in things that I don't enjoy, I have to tap myself on the back and say who are you trying to prove a point to Stop? So that's been a struggle because you know of, of course, I've been chair of the school I've been in.
Speaker 2:I hated it yeah and so I ended up quitting, and I have never quit so that must have hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes in our wellness we got to do things and I say this all the time like loving yourself, self-care, self-love, all of those wellness. Sometimes that's about doing shit you don't want to do because it's what's best, yeah yeah, I mean I quit, and it took a friend of mine to go.
Speaker 2:What are you doing? Like you hate this. It's like, yeah, but I can't quit. Why?
Speaker 1:you know, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I ended up break some of those lies and break some of those core beliefs. Right, because the ego says if I quit even though I'm not enjoying this, even though this is not for me, if I stop doing it, I lose worth. And so the only way to challenge that is to again own your truth, own your, your voice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, exactly To say I am good enough. Yes, no matter what you know, and one of my friends told me this. She said you know what People think of you as none of your business, and I thought oh, that's a hard one for me, because I like people to like me as everybody does. And so, if you don't wow, what do I do with that? And she said well, it's really none of their, none of your business, what they think.
Speaker 2:And so that one still. I think it would still very much bother me, but I'm getting a little more comfortable with being who I am, just this being who I am, and not turning my dial up or down. Every person of color, like turns turns their blackness up when they feel relaxed and around friends and turns it down when they're in an environment where they're uncomfortable. And I'm trying to reach that level of freedom where I am and where I'm comfortable being 100% my full self and not my diet self. Not my not bringing you my diet personality, but I'm bringing you my full flavor personality. And so that's really what I've learned over the years. I don't think I could have done it so well, as if I didn't feel accomplished, but now I feel I'm going to bring you my 100%.
Speaker 1:I'm like you, very stubborn, very resort, you know, resistant, I guess, rigid people have said you know, and I do. I find it really challenging because I want to be liked, Of course I want to be respected, all of those things, but I, I, I, of course I want to be respected, all of those things. But I detest pretense, I detest inauthenticity, fakeness. I don't have the energy emotionally to engage in those sorts of politics Like I just don't right. Yeah, so I can relate to what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you surround yourself, I'm sure, with people who are more authentic and real. You know, deal with those fake people when you have to, and that's kind of what I try to do surround myself and I try to give people permission to just be real.
Speaker 1:Well, I find the challenge in being real is that you know I'm going to do that, I'm going to go out into those spaces and I'm going to speak my truth. I always have, I've always felt a lot like I'm the odd one out. I'm the one. People are kind of roll their eyes when I start talking because I'm always saying something. You know, changing that spotlight on that elephant. You know looking under the rug like guys what about this? And it's more work and it's more, it's just more everything right. It's the hard route.
Speaker 1:And having people who, you know, don't respond to me as a human, as a person, well, because of that, right this is where being an entrepreneur has been really freeing, really emancipating, because I get to own my voice, without necessarily carrying as much shame when I'm leaving those spaces, or fear of consequence or reprisal. I can really just step into my gifts and say this is what I know. You have the option to continue to engage with and teach and learn from me or not, but I get to be authentic, I get to be me.
Speaker 2:That's right. It should be right, as it should be, and I think people now they know where we're coming from. I mean, if you can afford and I and I there are plenty of people that I know that they can't afford that because they have jobs and kids to feed, and I get that. But you know, my role is to hopefully make people feel comfortable, to be themselves in that. Sometimes that takes time.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things that I learned is like when you have the power and you're in the room, shut up, and when you don't have the power and you're in the room, speak up. So I want to facilitate that as much as possible and sometimes I'll just, I'll say things, I'll show my authentic self and people feel a little awkward or maybe they'll laugh at what I did, but you know, the point is to show you it's okay, like I said, I said what do you, what does that mean in a meeting, cause I know other people are afraid to say what does that mean? Or you know, if I say, oh, sorry, I'm late, I don't have any excuse at all. Totally forgot menopause. You know, and people will, it'd be a little bit uncomfortable, but you know, all of those reasons are just to let you just unbutton the top button of your pants metaphorically, you know, relax real.
Speaker 1:We're going to be able to collaborate. We're going to be able to support one another in much more meaningful ways, and that's part of decolonization. Right Is stepping outside of those systems, constructs and processes that have us hiding ourselves and limiting our work Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It gives people permission to do so as well, and I think that's where we allow women, people of color, those with disabilities, those who are different, the LGBT. We allow people to come in and be different, show their difference, be authentic and still be accepted, respected and can do the work alongside everybody else.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, so I have a few more questions. Thank you so much Like you've just shared so many really amazing things and I totally feel like I could just have a whole, you know, seven or eight episodes of cellulose. That's too, much, but you know you talked about imposter syndrome. You talked about shame, self sabotage, feeling like you need to hustle for your worth. You know those sorts of of things and I'm curious about what's helped you in maintaining your wellness.
Speaker 2:What I love to do, and I do this very, very purposefully. I do two things very purposefully. Every night, before I check out for the night, I write down my list of what I need to do the next day and then when I accomplish that list, I'm done. Or if I didn't, I move it to the next day. But that disciplines me so that I know how long my day is going to be. If I see somebody in the hallway and I start talking to them for half an hour, best believe, in the back of my mind I'm thinking you're just added a half an hour onto your day. So I'm very disciplined like that.
Speaker 2:And the second thing I do very, very purposefully I design who is in my life, who is in my space. I do that by design. So I will purposefully start to distance people who I think are unhealthy, toxic or whatever to me. And I won't do it abruptly and I won't do it meanly. I just there's an assessment I've made and there's an intervention that I'm implementing. So call that person less. I accept their calls less often and just less and less and less.
Speaker 2:The people that I think are positive and nurturing to me and are moving in alignment with me. I design bringing them closer, and I do this because I know one thing about myself is that I'm very influenced. I don't want to be. I want to be that strong, independent, but I'm not. So I know whoever is around me will influence me. So if somebody is around me and they're like drinking a lot, you know I'm going to start drinking more. You know I'm going to be influenced. So I'm very careful with who's in my inner circle and I distance people who are not healthy for me or don't help me move in the direction I'm trying to move, and that could be family or friends.
Speaker 1:Yes, or professionals or organization, all of them, yeah, and anyone you can be in relationship with. Don't let them mess with you, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, that's so true, because I, you know, and I had a mother who was she was very nice and she loved me and I loved her greatly and all the stuff, but you know she's toxic, so I had to take care of her because she got old and, you know, sick and um. So in those spaces where I can't distance you physically because you are in my space, then I will distance emotionally, like I will do all the things um, but I don't, it won't sink in. I just have this great thing that I do in my mind, where I just say you crazy.
Speaker 2:And I kind of just I don't say it out loud because that's rude, but I just say it in my and for me it helps me take that 50 pound burden that you just tried to give me. That isn't mine Boom back onto you, or it lets me sort of swat away any of that negativity that you're trying to make me feel guilty about or make me own.
Speaker 2:It's not mine and so I'll just be like, and so I'll just be like crazy and I will go on with my day because I will not let it sink into me. And so I either physically distance or I emotionally, much emotional energy and spiritual energy going out to that experience.
Speaker 1:To heal yourself or to defend yourself. Right, it's either you know shielding you from harm or it's now being activated so you can get to some sort of baseline of normalcy in your emotional and mental wellness Right, you can't move, you just get back to baseline.
Speaker 2:So it's like this is ridiculous. I mean, I have a sister I've probably been talked to in 10 years and I'm fine with that and I'm not mad at her. She's just not healthy and I'm not going to. I can't be your victim. I can't allow you to abuse me Because you are misguided and that's not even her fault. I know I don't know what it is, but I just I can't do that, so I don't. It took me a while and now I haven't talked to her in 10 years and I'm totally fine with that.
Speaker 2:And I think you know I have the energy I need to do the work that inspires me and that I like doing. Otherwise, you know there's a lot of people out there that are like, wow, I really would love to do this, but man, I after work or I'm just I must be lazy Sometimes it's not lazy home and your people in your home are emptying your bucket Like somewhere there has to be give. And some people think that's mean if you don't help everybody that asks you. But you can't, because there are some people that just they're like parasites. They would just suck the life out of you, you have to distance and you're not mean if you do that, because they will find somebody else.
Speaker 1:There's so much to what you're saying, because I think, firstly, there's a difference between people that you work with versus people that you allow into your inner circle.
Speaker 1:So, we're not saying don't work with any of those toxic people, but don't have them speak into your life in meaningful ways. And again, I like how you said earlier, like you're not in alignment. One of the things that I've been working on over the last few years is detaching from judgment. So you know, I would say, oh, my ex is abusive and he was, you know, so unhealthy those things. And now I say I experienced our relationship as abusive. We weren't healthy together because I don't know what he's like in other relationships.
Speaker 2:I only know my experience. Yeah, right, but it's really.
Speaker 1:It's really about misalignment and whether or not you're healthy together. I don't get to judge who you are as a human, but I can absolutely judge your impact in my life and you said some other things there around. You know having boundaries with your time, having an intentional social circle Earlier you talked, you know it's important to know yourself like you know that you're influenced by people, so that's something that you need to set boundaries around right. So knowing yourself and also knowing your limits. You spoke about walking away from people, yes, but you also talked about, you know, that position that you had in the university that you hated and how you had to challenge yourself to quit.
Speaker 1:That was a limit. That was a limit. It was taking joy, it was taking energy and so knowing yourself, knowing your limits, having those boundaries and being intentional about the people you are allowing to have to speak into your life to have value. You spoke about detaching emotionally from that family member and what came to me right away is like you're just not taking it personally. You know you're creating a separation for yourself.
Speaker 1:They're creating some emotional boundaries you know to contain your safety, and those are super, huge, super valuable. They're transferable. It's not just your friends and your family, again, it's organizations, it's workplaces, it's bosses. I can't tell you how many times I've had to go to executive directors or managers and either have conversations about dynamics with other co-workers or direct like hey, you said this thing to me in public, in front of everyone, and I want to address that because I don't play like that and I'm not the one like. I am not. I know I did my abusive years, I did my time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And now I have value. And if and if you're not going to value me, I'm going to first show you how, because perhaps you've never been in relationship with someone with my needs. But if you're not going to meet those needs, then we're going to need to find a way to move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's very gracious. So I and I'm I'm really really about that life, because being able to craft and design who is in your inner circle is so important to your time, your boundaries, just like you said. And then if you want to move forward and get things accomplished, you know I like to create lists, not that they, the list doesn't stress me out. In fact, when I write it all on a paper and I can go to sleep or I can spend the rest of the evening, it kind of relieves my stress because I don't have to remember. I just have to wake up the next day and look at it. So for me that works.
Speaker 2:As life gets so complicated, as life gets so complicated, you know, in our Institute we have, you know, over like seven different grants and different funders and different meetings, and that you know you can't just wake up and remember. You know. So being able to, you know, have a list is just it, just it directs my life. I know how long my day is going to last. You know. Just so many benefits for me.
Speaker 1:So it's good for your wellness. Sounds like it's good for your professional journey as well. What else helps you in your professional journey?
Speaker 2:I mean, in my professional journey, I do engage a lot of people that I like. I engage a lot of people that I don't like. That I like. I engage a lot of people that I don't like and in my professional journey, I've learned not to. I learned to focus on the mission and I learned to ask myself repeatedly when I'm upset is this about your ego or is this hurting the mission? Because if it's about my ego, or is this hurting the mission? Because if it's about my ego, then I'm going to have to walk away and I'm going to have to process that. If it's indeed hurting the mission, then I have to step up and I have to engage that, I have to advocate, I have to fight, I have to whatever I have to do, Because if you hurt the mission, you hurt a lot of people that don't have a voice, they don't have the platform. If you bruise my ego like who gives a shit, Like oh so.
Speaker 1:I feel like I remember you calling me to task on this in the last year actually. Yeah, I feel like I remember a conversation about like everybody in the movement is here for the same reason. You've got to check your ego. I would favor of the cause and I was like I don't like you girl.
Speaker 2:And you know, I mean I still struggle, it's still, it's still a struggle, it's still a struggle. But you know that's what I try to do because I'm like okay, you know, you got lots of people you can go get support from. They'll help you with your ego or whatever.
Speaker 2:But, you know you have to deal with this person. You don't like them, but they're the piece of the puzzle we got to deal with right now, because if we want to get this passed or if we want to get this program or this funding, well, this is the person that has the key to the door. So deal with them, and so I just I try to do that and move on. I don't want to have coffee with them, I don't want to have a beer with them, but get together. We're going to do this thing and then we're going to move on Like.
Speaker 1:There's two core pieces to this. We're making lists to make sure we stay on task and manage stress, but we're also remaining open to others, whether you are have the same kind of vision or not. Right, same approach, um, but really being focused on the mission. What's in common in terms of the missions that you're pursuing? And and really intentionally, consciously, staying out of ego so that you can prioritize the work?
Speaker 2:yeah, now my inner circle different that we have to be in alignment and we have to you know, know. I, I like those people, I enjoy those people. I can be my full self all the time, you know that. But when I'm in my professional experience, you know there's all shapes and flavors to that experience.
Speaker 1:So Well, I will just say this I don't know about you, but for myself, thinking about what helps in that professional journey like people that challenge me, like yourself right, people that I respect, who I know respect me, who believe in the work that I do, who have acted as allies, mentors, supports, without any strings or conditions attached. I want to learn from those folks and I want them to challenge me right. So I mean, even when I'm doing, for example, a conference, even when I'm doing, for example, a conference, one of the challenges of being a lived experience speaker is that when you're able to tell your story quite eloquently, there's a high level of emotion that becomes attached to that. That prevents people from now saying what they think and asking the questions they need to ask. And that's something that I have to revisit constantly and say, like I got a thick skin, like we need to have this conversation, you need to challenge anything you don't understand, because this is where we grow. It's not just from listening to me, it's from dialogue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. What advice would you give to organizations that work with survivor leaders? Celia?
Speaker 2:I would say understand all the talents that come into the room, not only survivor leaders. Understand their skills and talents and value that they bring into the room. And if you can't see them eventually running the organization or running the coalition or collaboration, then check your values and why do you really want them here. But I think that also plays into the whole idea of collaboration, which I don't think a lot of people understand or do effectively. Which I don't think a lot of people understand or do effectively.
Speaker 2:Because what happens in reality is you come to a coalition or a commission or what group of diverse people into the room and everybody says they want to collaborate, but they're either on their phone because they're there just to put it on their resume, or they were made to come, or I'm coming to find out what I can get for my agency. The hell would you, the rest of you people. So it's anything but collaboration. So survivors are there because we all want to say we have survivors at the table, but we don't want to honor them or actually listen to them, particularly if they have a diverse opinion. That's going to make us work harder. So I think being able to come to the table and learn about collaboration, because even you have preconceived notions about the police that are there.
Speaker 2:I'm going to pick on them, because this is my struggle, but it's you know. Oh, I know what they're all about. You know, I've read about it, I've seen, you know, but you don't know those three people or two people or person, that you're not willing to show them grace or get to know them, because you have these preconceived notions about what the people are about already, and so all those things hinder real collaboration, whether it's with survivors at the table or whether it's with whatever profession. You know the police might be looking at us as social workers saying, no, you're just tree-hugging, rainbow-puppy petting people or whatever you know. So I think all of those things really hinder the value and the talents that people can bring into the room. But if they're at the table and they're in the room, there could be people there that are there because they went into those professions or they had this experience and they want to make a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's where, when we're doing this work, you know again, trauma, informed, healing, engaged, all the things. It's about relationship and it's not just about relationship with with service recipients, it's about relationship with one another as professionals. Again, we are also humans. Let's expand the timeline a little bit and insert into the agenda getting to know each other as humans, some relationship building, some understanding what each other's gifts, skills, hopes, passions are, so that we can plug people in where their gifts and passions are most useful, but also so that we know how to support them and connect with them and maybe not take offense to certain things that come because we have a better understanding of where they're coming from.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I like what you were saying about collaboration and I wanted to just add a little piece there. There's a difference between collaboration and fair collaboration. So when I'm thinking about work with survivors, especially fair collaboration to me looks a lot more like how would you like to be acknowledged for your participation in this? How can I promote you as a survivor leader? Can I put your logo on it? How much do I need to pay you? You know, how can I advertise on your behalf? How can I share information about what you're doing with others, like collaboration in that context, is not just about taking what you need and slapping your name on it and giving me, you know, a gift card or even a thousand dollars, because my work that you're using, that I've contributed to, will continue to produce value.
Speaker 1:And so how are you going to continue to produce value right In terms of where is the reciprocity and why, as a survivor leader, are we less entitled to that reciprocity because of you? The adversity that we've survived and bounced back from those pieces feel a little bit backwards, and when I think about fair collaboration, it's not just about bringing voices to the table, right. What advice would you give to survivor leaders in this work?
Speaker 2:It's difficult for me because I'm humbled by the expertise that they do bring to the table. So I'm like, who am I to begin? But you know I would say that understand that there are some collaborators, some people that you could partner with that also have lived experiences in other areas, have lived experiences in other areas but those underlying issues of oppression or invisibility or marginalization. Sometimes you can connect with other people on those issues and when you connect with them on those issues you may feel like you have more of an authentic and genuine partner. Your partner may feel like they have permission to share that part of themselves. And so then you have partnership, you have collaboration, you have understanding and a lot of people have been trained and taught not to be authentic and not to talk about those things and to present themselves in their suits and briefcases or whatever. But being able to connect with someone you know gives you you're starting to build your inner circle professionally of people that you can learn to trust and that just gives you another leg up, because you need that partnership.
Speaker 2:You can't get out there in the world isolated. That's not healthy. You need some people that you know, you can even vent with, because they understand your heart. So even if you say something that's inappropriate or whatever, you can say it to them, because they understand your heart, they know you and so you don't have to be walking on eggshells. You can be real, and they still know that you're about the mission, and they still know you want to make a difference, even though you just went in their office or whatever and you just talked about how much you can't stand this other person or whatever, it's okay, you need to do that and we can do that, and then we'll go back out and we'll just do the good work. So I think you know, for me that's what helps me stay in the game is I have some people in my inner circle that I can trust with my ugliness, but they still know that my heart is good and they know what I'm ultimately trying to do.
Speaker 1:Right, so I'm hearing. Find your tribe. Recognize the intersection between your lived experience and others.
Speaker 2:You say it so beautifully.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just remaining open, right, remaining open to the work and the fact that there are trustworthy collaborations out there. And I would like to just kind of add to that, if and when you're able to practice knowing your limits, knowing yourself, having boundaries and being intentional about your social circle, being able to maintain your wellness, to attend to your professional journey in a good way, is what really is going to allow you to have that space, maybe not to be able to prejudge whether that collaboration is safe, but to be able to act when you recognize that it isn't safe for you.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, truth, wisdom.
Speaker 1:Yes, is there a message of encouragement or guidance you would leave for survivors who are still fairly early in their recovery journey? I know we've been talking about anti-trafficking and human trafficking, but I think you know as a survivor of domestic violence as well just again thinking about your own journey and what that has looked like and felt like as someone who's wanting to go to school, elevate in life from where you came from. Right, any words of encouragement or guidance in that early recovery journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that you know, you have talents and you have brilliance, and if you refuse to share that with the world, we all lose. So please don't let people tell you whether it's implied or whether it's direct. Please, please don't let people try to dim your light and try to tell you that you're not worthy of this, or please don't look at these people in the positions you want. And just because they don't look like you, they don't talk like you, it doesn't mean it can't be you. So I would just say please, keep trying. Don't tell yourself no. In fact, tell yourself yes, and if you talk to yourself which you should do please answer yourself, because why the hell talk to yourself.
Speaker 2:If you're should do. Please answer yourself, because why the hell talk to yourself if you're not going to give yourself the answer? But sometimes it's the wisest conversation you have had all day. So please, please, keep trying and keep succeeding, because not only for yourself, but there are other ones, little ones, around you, looking at you, and so you are teaching, you're guiding, you're mentoring, you're giving permission to, and so when you give up, not only do you leave the world without your talents, but there are other people that you might be influencing, that you don't even know are watching what you do.
Speaker 2:So if not for yourself. You know, give your talents and skills to the world, keep trying, have a certain hardheadedness to you, don't listen to the fools and it's okay to be hardheaded and not listen sometimes if it's for your benefit. So that's what I would say. And if you keep moving down that path you are going to, you know, get to a place that's going to be a better place for you.
Speaker 1:So when you do what's true to you, you find freedom. Yes, absolutely. So, to close, I would love it if you could reflect on some of the work that you've done with folks, and I've invited everybody to kind of give a shout out to somebody with lived experience, a professional who's had an impact on their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'd like to give a shout out to two of my students, jacob and Lashana. They I have been their mentor for several years and now they are my mentor and now they are my mentor, so they have circled back to me. They both have two very successful businesses where their behavioral health organizations and they have they're making a huge impact in people's lives, a big impact, and they're making a big income. So I love those two eyes, big impact, big income, and you know they, because I think a lot of us who are helping people, we think we have to make pennies If you are making an impact on the world and you know my goal is to change the world. Like I, I want to make such a big impact and I also want to make such a big income. I like both of those eyes.
Speaker 2:I like money, money likes me. I'm not ashamed to say that if I'm giving value to the world, that the world recognizes that and says well, we're going to help you take care of your house, your car, your family, so that you don't have to worry about that, so that you can go out and continue to do the great work. Yeah, so my two students that graduated started their own companies, massively successful. Jacob Spellis, vital Health. He does probably a $3 to $4 million a year business. Lashana, alfred she runs a smaller mental health and counseling. He runs mental health and substance abuse services. She runs mental health counseling. So she's very successful too, though not quite at his level. But they both circled back to me and said hey, what, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm over here, doing making a difference over here. Okay, no, no, no, come, do what we're doing so that you can make a difference and you can make the income to help your family, to set your grandson up for success. Do all those things too, and so they really just dragged me down the road. So they, and so it's been wonderful, because a lot of people that get into behavioral health, you know they pay thousands of dollars to learn how to do this. And my two students are circling back saying you helped us, now we're going to help you for free.
Speaker 2:And so I got to shout them out because I wasn't even thinking anywhere along the lines of what they made me start thinking about. Yes, lashana is lived experience in that she spent several years in prison carrying drugs from one country to another. Just a really horrible childhood turned her entire life around to be highly successful. Jacob sold drugs, spent a few years in prison, and now he works with men coming out of prison getting their lives together. Both of them have done amazing, amazing work. I'm so proud of them, and I used to just be proud of them, but they came back and said no, no, you're going to do what we're doing. He runs a program called you Change and both in Toledo, ohio, and both very accomplished, very successful, great credibility and reputations in our community, and they are helping people that are, I would say, the most marginalized.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Shout out to Jacob and LaShauna If you're hiring, I'm here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they are amazing.
Speaker 1:So happy to hear lived experience folks making an impact, you know, in collaboration with folks that are professionals without the same lived experience. It's beautiful, it's important and it's productive. So that's awesome and thank you so much, celia, for coming today. It has just been so incredible learning from you, you too, you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anything you need, of course you let me know, because I understand your heart and I know where you're going in life and so I celebrate that. So anything that you need, of course, always let me know, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same same to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, much success with the podcast. I'm sure you are helping many, many people who will listen to it and I hope they get something from it. You know, take what you need and leave the rest.
Speaker 1:Thank you listeners for joining us for our conversation with our sisters. Keeper, Dr Celia Williamson, we're so glad to have had you listening today and we look forward to sharing more with you in the future.
