Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers

From Cocoon to Butterfly: Juanita van Heerden's Journey to Advocacy

Shamin Brown Consulting Season 1 Episode 12

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What happens when a survivor of addiction and trauma becomes an advocate for trafficked women? Juanita van Heerden's journey offers profound wisdom for anyone walking the path of healing, advocacy, and leadership.

With over 11 years of experience in survivor care, including her role as former executive director of SCAPE — South Africa's first specialized safe house for trafficking survivors — Juanita brings both professional expertise and lived experience to the conversation. Her candid reflections on addiction recovery, mental health treatment, and finding purpose through pain create a tapestry of insights that challenge the traditional narratives around trauma and healing.

Her powerful testimony about embracing medication for mental health breaks down harmful stigmas: "I would rather be dependent on medication than bleed over everybody else." This refreshing honesty creates space for others to acknowledge their own needs without shame.

The conversation weaves through crucial topics for survivor leaders: setting boundaries with toxic relationships, finding safe community, balancing self-care with service, and recognizing worth beyond productivity. Juanita introduces us to the beautiful South African concept of Ubuntu—"I am because you are"—which frames her approach to creating healing spaces where survivors can truly thrive.

Perhaps most compelling is her butterfly metaphor for empowerment: just as forcing open a cocoon prevents a butterfly's wings from developing properly, taking away someone's struggle can disable their ability to fly. True empowerment comes not from rescue but from creating supportive environments where people can develop their own strength.

Whether you're a survivor, advocate, helper, or simply someone navigating your own healing journey, Juanita's wisdom reminds us of a revolutionary truth: "Taking care of yourself is not a luxury—it's a necessity." Embrace this journey of healing-centered leadership with us.

Welcome to Conversations with My Sisters' Keepers, the podcast where we bring awareness, share stories, and promote healing-centered conversations for lived experience professionals and allies in the gender-based violence and recovery sectors.

I'm Shamin Brown, and together, we’ll explore strategies, resources, and insights to support wellness, recovery, and leadership. Join us as we challenge stigma, celebrate autonomy, and normalize the healing journey. 

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Shamin Brown:

Welcome and thank you for joining us for our conversation with our sisters keeper Juanita Van Heerden. Juanita is a dedicated advocate for human trafficking survivors, with over 11 years of experience in survivor care. Formerly the executive director of S-CAPE, a safe house for trafficked women and their children in Cape Town, South Africa, she now works as a consultant, equipping organizations to establish and strengthen survivor support programs. Juanita brings lived experiences of addiction and sexualized violence that have shaped her deep passion for holistic healing and trauma-informed care. She's currently in her third year of psychology studies and works closely with Not I but we, a social enterprise empowering survivors of sex trafficking. Committed to collaboration over reinvention. Juanita helps organizations build sustainable, impactful and lasting support systems for survivors of trafficking. Welcome, Juanita, we are so glad to have you with us today.

Juanita van Heerden:

Thank you for having me.

Shamin Brown:

It's such an honor to be here. As we know, these conversations with our sisters keepers are considered crucial for survivors and survivor leaders. We want to advance beyond trauma-informed and resilience-based narratives of surviving, thriving and leading, and embrace a healing-centered focus on wellness and recovery. Today, we are working towards challenging the stigma and judgment that many survivors encounter during their healing process by sharing insights into our own recovery and wellness journeys. I think that we can normalize the ongoing and cyclical nature of recovery experience by sharing these insights. What do you think?

Juanita van Heerden:

Yes, absolutely. I think healing is definitely not linear. It's definitely such a long and intricate and bumpy road and I know that I've had experienced so much comfort when I've heard other people share to just take some of the stigma away that they've been through similar things. And, as Brene Brown says, vulnerability begets vulnerability. So when we're able to create those spaces for others, it's so beautiful to see, especially as women, how we can support one another through our respective healing journeys.

Shamin Brown:

Yes, yes, and you're a member of the G100 anti-human trafficking wing. Can you tell me a little bit about your position with that?

Juanita van Heerden:

So I am the country chair of South Africa and it's only quite recently been established in the last year or so so we still have a lot of groundwork to do. But it's such an honor for me to be a part of such a global network of women who are leaders, who are standing up against the injustices, and the thing that I love so much about G100 is that we come to share resources. It's not keeping things to myself. It's really to see how can I equip and empower you and vice versa. It really is coming back to the roots of living in a village and sharing and bartering with one another and really empowering one another. I've found it to be such a safe space. You would expect, like global leaders, to be arrogant, but I've only experienced softness and just such gentleness, with a dash of fears, which is exactly what we need to be able to accomplish some change in this field.

Shamin Brown:

I'm the chairperson for the Canadian Country Club of the G100 Anti-Human Trafficking Wing and over the next three years, we've developed some goals around promoting lived experience leadership and autonomy, supporting the wellness of lived experience staff, developing survivor-led, informed and facilitated prevention and intervention programs, and identifying ally organizations that are invested truly invested in survivor leadership. What do you think about these goals of the G100 Canada? Any gaps, strengths, any challenges you think we might run into? What are your thoughts?

Juanita van Heerden:

I definitely want to say, shamim, that I am just so proud of you for being able to be the chairperson, despite challenges that you might have experienced throughout your life. You're fighting the fight and you're getting your hands dirty and you're leading the way in terms of what survivor care really looks like and creating a space for survivor voices. So I really think that you're the right person in the right role and I think the goals are very survivor focused and survivor centered, and that is so incredibly important. I've seen in this field for so many years how those of us who have not experienced trafficking try to implement systems in an attempt to help but actually causing a lot more harm. So having survivor voices at the forefront is so crucial for really for long-term sustainable change.

Juanita van Heerden:

With regards to challenges that you might experience, there are so many, especially everything coming through from demand and the majority male population who would want to silence whatever truth you would have to bring through oppressors, through people who would rather stick their head in the ground than to acknowledge that trafficking and sexual exploitation is such a reality. There are so many challenges, but I think the fruits of your work will far outweigh those. Change has really been brought about by the one person who stood up and said no more. And that's what you're doing. Thank you.

Shamin Brown:

Thank you for that heartwarming. I love the encouragement, the affirmation. I appreciate you so much. On the topic of lived experience, like we know, research tells us that engaging lived experience people and working with survivors can be considered a best practice in the sense that it creates a safer space for folks to self-disclose and talk about where they've been. But that's also true for sexual abuse, it's also true for mental health, it's also true for addictions and I want to be really clear about that. When we talk about lived experience, it's not isolated to one specific lived experience. I think it's more about lived experience professionals and lived experience work is more about tapping into your own experience, both of trauma and of healing, and looking for some common threads there, some ways to validate, to affirm, to encourage, maybe even using some of that tacit knowledge, to understand some of the resistance and the barriers to recovery and be able to create a pathway. Would you mind walking us through some of your lived experiences, just the ones that you feel most comfortable sharing?

Juanita van Heerden:

I live in South Africa and crime is a bit more normal here than some other countries. So the majority of people that I know have had some level of experience with crime, and so I've experienced physical, sexual, emotional abuse and, of course, they've left a huge scar on me through various stages of my life. And what I've seen so many times with those of us who have experienced ongoing trauma for extensive periods of time is how really it shapes our view of ourselves in terms of feeling worthy. That was one of the things as a consequence of that trauma that I became an addict. So I was addicted to drugs and alcohol and cigarettes, even though I didn't fully understand it at the time. I was trying to escape feelings of unworthiness. I was trying to numb this deep pain that I was carrying around inside of me that I didn't have the words to express at the time. I just made my whole life about running away from it and I would physically run away from relationships. I became hyper independent as a result of trauma and just really not knowing how to receive love because I didn't trust it. The love that was presented to me was with condition and it came with a very heavy price and it wasn't healthy, it wasn't safe. So the concept of love, which might be a Disney princess movie to some women, was a terrifying aspect to me. It really affects everything, those deep wounds. Today I'm grateful that I'm free from chemical drugs for 18 years and alcohol and cigarettes for 12 years. I know how hard it is for so many people and I think it's also definitely cultivated a level of empathy in me for people who have experienced similar challenges, because that's not really something you can learn in a book. I've heard so many people judge addicts or a number of different people groups. It's so deeply frustrating when people don't understand your experience and when they come from a place of judgment. It really is going to be hard, and I think something that has really helped me in terms of my mental health is that I have been on antidepressants and it has saved my life, and I have friends who also are on antidepressants. I know that it saved their life and that really is something that I'm so passionate about.

Juanita van Heerden:

Shemin is to speak openly about using psychiatric meds if that's what you need, anti-anxiety meds, if that is what has been prescribed to you, and that is something that will help you to actually function in a very messed up society in a very difficult world, while we're nurturing our wounds and trying to form some sense of healthy identity within ourselves. I really want to break the stigma of using medication and going to therapy. We're long past that and yet so many people are still stuck in that saying I don't want to be dependent on medication. In terms of criticism towards medication and therapy, I find it so interesting that the people who are the ones that judge when you medicate etc or go for therapy, they also medicate with alcohol or sex or pornography or work or anger outbursts or fill in the blank.

Juanita van Heerden:

None of us are immune to the consequences of being human and I would rather be dependent on medication than bleed over everybody else. Ajal saying says that if you don't heal what hurts you, you'll bleed over those who didn't cut you. I have seen that in the nonprofit spaces so many times good-hearted, winning people coming to the fore with a heart to help, but oftentimes their wounds have not been healed yet and so they project a lot of their wounds and their needs and form codependent relationships with survivors when that is the last thing that they need. So I realized first and foremost when I started my journey in working with survivors that I need to also be held accountable. I need to deal with my stuff. I need to go to therapy. I want to help someone else, but I'm not willing to sit in my own uncomfortable and in my own pain.

Shamin Brown:

I think everybody needs therapy, and the people who least think they need it are likely the ones, who most need it because they're not in tune.

Shamin Brown:

We all go through some rough stuff. So if you don't think there's anything there, I question how self-aware you are. You were talking about relationships and how scary they are and hyper-independence, and I resonate with that so much. But there's also this piece about when you find a healthy relationship after all of that and how that's terrifying. Then, moving on to meds, has there ever been a period for you where you've had that mindset before you got to this place, where you feel like, yes, it's a good thing, and then also thinking about addictions? What was the turning point for you with meds, with relationships, with addictions? What was the turning point?

Juanita van Heerden:

For me, it was a really big thing. My mom was diagnosed with cancer in 2011 and she passed away the same year. It was a really big thing. My mom was diagnosed with cancer in 2011 and she passed away the same year. It was a matter of months and that was really the turning point for me because she was my best friend and we had a really close relationship.

Juanita van Heerden:

My mom was a single mother raising four kids, doing her best. She obviously had her own wound and definitely wasn't perfect, but she was my hero in a lot of ways. And when she died, there's just something about the fragility of life, the finality of death, and that you'll never, ever be able to see the person again, and that really was, for me, the point of coming to a point of saying I want my life, I want to live a life of purpose. I realized she left. She couldn't take anything with her.

Juanita van Heerden:

So what was, what is the point of chasing after material stuff when you couldn't even take anything with you? And so I really and her faith in God was really a very big point, even though I was very rebellious against Christianity growing up. But she managed to raise four children by faith and very little money and that was a very big waking up point for me. I then went to Kenya and I met a little boy who was trafficked and that messed me up. That was just a four-year-old little boy and I just had to wrestle a lot of that kind of stuff out with God why is this happening in this world.

Juanita van Heerden:

How? What is my part to play? Because I just knew I could never look away again. I wouldn't be able to go back to push around papers on a desk or whatever random activity when I know that people are genuinely suffering out there and that sex trafficking is a very big problem, and I just knew that this will be what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. Even though I had made that decision, I hadn't yet realized even how much trauma I had experienced up until when I first started at S-CAPE and we were getting trauma training one day and I was like oh girl, you are a hot mess.

Shamin Brown:

Yeah, that's so common. I hear that so much People in training who have lived experience and they don't realize they have lived experience. And then you're in a training and it's a deer in headlights.

Juanita van Heerden:

I just knew that it wouldn't be fair of me to come in here as some sort of a savior, walk a journey with people but not deal with my own stuff first. It starts with me, and so that's when I started embracing the journey of therapy and my therapist for the first two, three years recommended antidepressants and I didn't want to do it. I think also in the Christian communities, oftentimes mental health is frowned upon and medication for mental health, and that really is a stigma that I often challenge as well within Christian communities, because that's some nonsense. We really need to stop victimizing and hurting people and shaming people for struggling. And so that really was the turning point for me everything at once with addiction, with really turning my life around, because I was on a path of self-destruction up until the point when my mother had passed away.

Juanita van Heerden:

I had quit drugs a few years prior to that, but I was still an alcoholic when she passed away and I was drinking every day. So it really was a point. That was a turning point for me. But again, you'll have the big turning point moment. But then from there it's such a long walking out, relearning, unlearning, really embracing different parts of your journey and healthier relationships, et cetera. Yeah, even though the moment was big, a lot of the learning parts is even still ongoing to this day.

Shamin Brown:

Yeah, and talking about that, learning both in early recovery versus now, what are some of the things that you've struggled with along the way, or some of the ways that life has been negatively impacted. I think about romance and how like healthy relationships becomes challenging. Some folks talk about parenting while recovering from trauma, things like that. Just curious what that experience looked like for you in early recovery and now.

Juanita van Heerden:

I had rose colored glasses. Initially I really thought that I'm going to go to four weeks of therapy and eat two healthy salads and go for two walks and make one new healthy friend and then I'll be good. I can also reach this place of perfection, but I was so shocked when I found out that's not how it works. So I think initially I put a lot of effort into therapy and I actually went to intense therapy for about a year and a half quite intense and I worked through a lot of very deep wounds and I'm so grateful for that time. I still see a therapist now but it's spaced out like once a month, once every six weeks and I will hopefully continue to work with a therapist or supervisor, because every therapist needs a therapist.

Juanita van Heerden:

I won't trust an unhealthy fitness instructor. You're going to need to do your own work too before you're telling me so.

Juanita van Heerden:

It's definitely ongoing, but I think honestly I have learned so much compassion with myself in the process because, I used to have a very black and white, harsh way of dealing with myself and I used to be very critical towards myself, and so the journey really taught me to have grace with myself, to have grace with others. It an ongoing thing which in and of itself is such a blessing because the pressure is off to reach a place of protection, and I'm very grateful for that. To have access to resources, because all over the world I know in the West as well, in Africa, where I am resources to mental health services are so scarce and when it is there it's not affordable except for the top five or top 10% who are wealthy in this country. So that part makes it difficult. So I know how privileged I am to have been in circles where therapy is quite common.

Shamin Brown:

I'm hearing some different things going on here. Therapy a group of folks that encourage and support what you need to do for yourself in therapy is quite common. I'm hearing some different things going on here.

Juanita van Heerden:

Therapy a group of folks that encourage and support what you need to do for yourself in recovery self-compassion. What do you think has helped you most in recovery? It's so interesting. I would have never thought that would be the thing initially, but it's really been being connected, connected to healthy friends, healthy community, really been being connected, connected to healthy friends, healthy community.

Juanita van Heerden:

I grew up being quite hyper-independent and I've had a thing of feeling shame for wanting love and needing love, and so it's something that I taught myself that I don't need and I'm fine without it. But of course we're not because we're made for connection, we're made for relationship and I have been, since I started this journey, been around so many healthy, amazing people where I've received so much healing, without them even knowing, without them doing anything spectacular, just being in the home of a family that is not insanely abusive or alcoholic, where they have their stuff, but it's regular stuff. They still love each other afterwards, and so in those healthy families I've learned so much. I continue to grow.

Juanita van Heerden:

I was at a gathering thing the other day and, even though it's been more than a decade, I just was so overcome with gratitude to be it's not something I take for granted to be in healthy spaces where no one has an agenda where no one is out to hurt me, where people actually believe that I can achieve good things and they support me and they encourage me. It's so incredibly valuable and oftentimes, when you get into a place of depression, you get a place of isolation and then you can start to believe a lot of lies about people not loving you or your sense of worth, when, in fact, when you do allow yourself to be in healthy spaces like that and if those spaces are available, it's been really the connection piece that's been the most valuable for me.

Shamin Brown:

And you spoke also about Christianity. I'm going to make the jump and assume that that's a faith that you practice. Was that something that you believed in before recovery? Is it something that happened during recovery and how has it played into your recovery?

Juanita van Heerden:

In the South African context. The majority of South Africans would call themselves Christians, so it's very normal. Our government prays, etc. I grew up in that context, but I was very rebellious and I questioned God a lot. I gave my mother such a hard time because she was a Christian.

Juanita van Heerden:

I questioned everything. I poked holes in everything. I used to see God as the guy with a big stick in the sky out to punish and take away my fun and pleasure, and yet the most fun I've had has been sober. I never really understood why someone would want to be a Christian. I always thought that it's weak people who can't think for themselves, who can't reason for themselves. I would judge people quite harshly, actually, but when my mom died, it's just too big to deny the magnificence of life and death, and it does make you start to wonder about eternity. And is this life really all that it is? Because would suck. That would be awful. If all of this pain and suffering I die like what? There's no reward, there's no cheesecake. At the end of the day, there's nothing like.

Juanita van Heerden:

All of this is for nothing, and so for me, for me, it's so important to believe that there is a god and that god loves me and has a plan for me and is holding my hand, and that god was the only one who never really left me when so many other people did. My faith has shaped and shifted a little bit over the years. I've experienced serious burnout in 2019. And I had a lot of questions, especially about a lot of the pain and suffering in the world, and I had a bit of a wobble with my faith, if you will, during that time. But I just keep coming back to knowing in my heart that I've experienced a love that is nothing like this world. It's so clean, it's so safe, it's so healthy, and to me it's not something I force on anybody else, but to me it's just such a beautiful thing and I just I can't get away from that. And I tell you to this day, if I didn't have a God to believe in and know that this life has some meaning at the end of it, I don't know if I would even cope to this day, and I've seen that with a lot of survivors over the years as well.

Juanita van Heerden:

It's a blanket statement, I know, but it seems that for the most part, the ones who really were able to grab a hold of their healing and a sense of worth were the ones that really connected with God. Obviously, it's not a black and white thing, it's not a yes or a no, but that has been very interesting for me because I think when you've been abused and misused and mistreated so many times in the quote-unquote name of love and you meet love who it really is. It's so different, it's just so beautiful and so healing. Yeah, and what I've found, too, really is it's so different.

Shamin Brown:

Not, it's just so beautiful and so healing. Yeah, and, and what I've found too, is that it's about believing, it's about faith, but that comes in many different ways, shapes and forms the survivors that I know that practice their, their indigenous culture or their african culture, and those who attend church, those who attend mosque, those who are Wiccan. It seems that having those spiritual beliefs and practices are a huge part of wellness and feeling connected to a universe beyond yourself, but also your own intrinsic manifestation power.

Juanita van Heerden:

I think it all comes down to like holistic care at the end of the day of the day, the emotional, spiritual, physical aspect of things.

Juanita van Heerden:

Oftentimes we I think also christianity has been used to oppress people in the past, unfortunately, and so it really has caused a lot of wounds. There is a lot of resistance and, like I said, I myself was quite resistant, but whatever it looks like for different people, we can't deny that we are our body, that we are heart spirits, like psychological aspects of things. All of those things need nurturing and need care and need us to invest time into every single piece of that.

Shamin Brown:

Absolutely. After 20 years of therapy, what I found was that when I started to tune into my body, attend yoga, do exercises, mindfulness, breathing, gardening, being out in the sun, playing with the soil, paying attention to what I eat and how I nourish my body, those are the things that made coping with big emotions a lot easier, a lot smoother, but also just created a new baseline for me of this energetic peace or calm where you just cope differently, you function differently, you think differently and it really all is an exercise also in self-care, in learning how to nourish, and with that comes setting limits in your social life as well. Who are you hanging out with? What are you doing? When are you doing it? Why are you doing it?

Shamin Brown:

And this is what therapy can be helpful, if you have the right therapist because they can walk you through some of those questions and some of that self-exploration and self-discovery. Who are you? What do you need? What works for you? And get rid of some of that external chatter around who you should be and what you should be doing, because sometimes what you should be doing ain't what works for you. We need sometimes to have permission to explore outside the box and to just be who we are. Holistic care is very individualized. It's very personalized, so it does create that space for you.

Juanita van Heerden:

I think you mentioned an important piece, Shamin, because when you're in fight or flight or in survival mode for so many years in traumatic spaces, you're not allowed to just go garden. What is garden when you're trying to survive? Just to soak up some vitamin D and do some healthy breathing exercises? People underestimate how much work it takes on a holistic level to be able to get to the point to allow yourself to put your hands in the soil and be in the moment. It's such a underrated gift.

Shamin Brown:

In my research that was one of the comments that was made. When we're thinking about lived experience leaders is that, although they're striving for wellness and there is this responsibility to become well, when you're doing the work, when you're under compensated and you're living in a concrete jungle where there's high crime, you don't have access to green spaces, you don't have access to a vehicle, you don't have money or time because you're overworking, because you're needing to meet survival needs to be able to give yourself those things that you need for wellness. And it's so important as a community, as a society, to try to make those things more accessible to all incomes, all folks. When we think about imposter syndrome, confidence, wellness, holistic wellness, recovery, all of those things what does that look like for you in your professional journey? What's helped the most? I?

Juanita van Heerden:

think boundaries Boundaries might be such a buzzword, but it still remains incredibly important, like I have two phones, and for many years, even if I go away, because the nature of the safe house is also 24-7 and there are a lot of crises and challenges, and so, because I was the director, it was also a very huge sense of responsibility. It's not really something you can switch off, so I took that with me everywhere I responsibility. It's not really something you can switch off, so I took that with me everywhere I went and that was definitely something that added to my burnout. It definitely put way too much weight on me and my burnout was important for me. I hated it so much, but it was so incredibly important because I had to learn to come to the end of myself and learn to reach out and ask for help, and I think I hate to admit it, but I was micromanaging.

Shamin Brown:

That's also a trauma response okay, we don't want to get blamed for anything going wrong.

Juanita van Heerden:

Exactly. You can't have that and it really taught me if I really want to help somebody, then I need to trust that they have the strength within them to help themselves and to nurture that in them so that they can stand on their own two feet. And empowerment comes through responsibility. And that really stuck with me because if I want to empower someone but I take their responsibility away, then I'm disempowering them. If I want to genuinely see you empowered, I need to give you the responsibility and step away. Allow you to fall off the bike, allow you to make some mistakes and love you during the process, but not try to take that away from you. It's that picture of trying to force open a cocoon when the butterfly is still in its process. I need to stand back if I really want to see you fly and thrive.

Shamin Brown:

For those who don't know, what happens when you open a butterfly cocoon and you help that butterfly get out of the cocoon is that its wings don't get to develop and form and it can never fly. So, though you think you're helping, the butterfly actually needs to be able to beat its wings on the inside of that cocoon and push against the pressure and break out of the cocoon on its own, because that's what pumps the fluids through the wings and helps shape and strengthen the wings that work to get free.

Juanita van Heerden:

So can't be opening the cocoon for others. I think, definitely in terms of going forward in terms of sustainability in my work, that really is something that is important. Sustainability in my work, that really is something that is important as I coach other organizations now and help them to open up more safe houses. I think obviously I've learned a lot from my own mistakes and the mistakes that we've made at S-CAPE, because S-CAPE was the first of its kind in South Africa of 60 million people in this country, and it was the first safe house that specializes in trafficking care. We've obviously made some mistakes, but I just love that organization so much. It's stood the test of time and continues to support survivors all the time as well, and I think that's so beautiful. And so now, a lot of the mistakes that we've made some people say you can view it as a mistake or a way not to do it in future.

Juanita van Heerden:

That has been also very important for me to learn from that and work towards best practice when it comes to trauma-informed care and to really train the staff and to really create spaces where you see, in NGO spaces there's a lot of the time still a very big poverty mentality and that is something that really makes my toes curl from frustration, because it doesn't have to be that way.

Juanita van Heerden:

Yes, we don't have to have donated plates with chips and every plate is a different color, and we're just so grateful for this bag of donated clothes where people donate underwear and torn things and I'm like, I'm so tired of that, like it's so disrespectful, it's so undignifying. So something when I worked towards equipping other safe houses is really helping them to put a lot of those measures in place and when it comes to donations, as a silly example, that you only take certain quality donations and to be able to also provide care to the caregivers. That is really something that is so close to my heart, because the staff members in an organization are oftentimes so overlooked and they give so much of themselves and they're so worn out, underpaid, understaffed, under-resourced and, in my opinion, if you take care of the staff, take care of the organization. It really is that simple.

Shamin Brown:

This is advice that you would give to organizations that work for survivor leaders, providing out high-end supplies and distribution staff care.

Juanita van Heerden:

Yes, absolutely, because we all come with our own story, and so it's so important to also acknowledge the humanness in the staff as well and to create spaces. And so something I'm passionate about as an example is to give, if you see a staff member is going through a hard time today, to allow them to take the day or take hours, to have that approachability as a leader for the staff to know that they're safe to come to you and say when they're struggling with something. And another thing that I really wish I could implement in some European countries there is a I think it's called a Sabbath. Every seven years you get a year off work where you paid I think that's a 5% of your salary every something like that a percentage of your salary every month and put it away, and the company puts up a certain percentage away, and so that, to me, is just so caring and loving and acknowledging of the sacrifice and it's for people in helping professions.

Juanita van Heerden:

During that year you can start a business, you can travel the world, you can garden all day, you can do whatever you want to do and recover after seven years of intense work and sacrifice and blood, sweat and tears that go into this work that a lot of people don't know and and see, I think for the first six months you'll just be recovering because our cups runneth dry.

Juanita van Heerden:

It takes a while to fill that cup up again and the second half of that would be more you being filled up again and rested well enough again so that you have enough to also give others again, even just on a shorter term, if seven years is too long.

Juanita van Heerden:

Let's say, for instance, if you get, I know, paid time off globally works differently, but in south africa it's about between 14 to 21 work business days that you get off, so it works out to about a month, so giving, let's say, three, four weeks extra a year, like you put that as part of your budget. You acknowledge that these are not machines, because sometimes you take two days there for your child's thing, one day there for the doctor, and so it's very fragmented. I really have seen that an important part of wellness is being able to take consecutive leave days, a couple of weeks, to really be restored and recover, to go back, because as helpers we want to help others. But my question is if you can't take care of yourself, what makes you think you can take care of others that simple and that complicated.

Shamin Brown:

Absolutely yeah. We're coming from a place of recovery, of having experienced some healing and being able to bring empathy and resources and wisdom about this process and experience to folks. But if we haven't done our own work, that becomes quite distorted.

Juanita van Heerden:

I know that those of us that have experienced some heck stuff in this life we want to make it also count for something and we want to be able to empower and support others in their journey. But sometimes it's also okay to take a break, even if that break means a year or two. Okay to take a break, even if that break means a year or two, where you just allow yourself to experience a different softness of life, instead of just adding one task upon the next to try and rescue everybody else, when all that we actually need is just to be seen and be loved and be in a place of tenderness for a while. That really has been something I used to always see so much of my worth in the work that I do. And to get to the see so much of my worth in the work that I do and to get to the point of realizing that my worth is not in that at all and that the real challenge is in race we are all hustling for our worth in North America, for sure, capitalist society.

Shamin Brown:

We're all fitting in being wearing a mask, performing for validation, for acceptance, to be seen, but we never are seen that way either, because we find ourselves in rest. We become ourselves in rest when we let go of all the rush and the hurry and the to-do list and the I should be list and I should do list and we just center. However, I'll say that being able to do that is also a challenge, because I would love to take a year off to be soft, but who will pay my bills then? So that's always the catch 22. We're spaces that we can go and do that and be that and still survive, and I think that for survivor leaders and survivors, survival is a constant. From childhood to now, it's still that thing that many of us are put first.

Juanita van Heerden:

It is crucial we do need to pay our bills. That is also why networking and being in safe circles is so incredibly important that we can share resources and knowledge with one another. Let's say, for instance, Susie is a survivor leader and she's about to start work at this place, but she's quite early in her recovery journey. It would be really helpful if someone that, let's say, for instance, is a financial advisor, is able to give some financial advice that, for myself, I would love to have a financial advisor actually teach me about investments and whatever else, because I never had that training. So you see people around you talk about their properties and their investments and I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I can pay my bills at the end of this month, let alone next month. And so having someone to give you those tools because there's so many people with experience and the know-how that can empower and equip survivor leaders with those skills so that, for instance, you would be able to learn oh okay, if I budget like this, I can put away 5% every month and I can take a year off after a couple of years, or just a month where I haven't been able to do that or connecting with people who might say hey, I opened my house to you. I travel once a year. You can come stay in my house by the beach.

Juanita van Heerden:

Silly little things like that can be really big and really beautiful. Going back to the village way of taking care of one another. In South Africa we have this beautiful term called Ubuntu, which means I am because you are, and that's really from the native South Africans who have been here, who have really lived in community, and I will not eat if you have not eaten. I cannot be if you are not taken care of. And so that beautiful way of doing life together as Ubuntu is so beautiful. And I think in our false-based society we've rushed and we've moved away so much from that, as you say, in terms of capitalism and in the urban jungle, and we really need to get back to those basics because we can't do it without support. We're not an island. We need one another if we really want to make it.

Shamin Brown:

You've said so many important things. We've talked about getting education on the areas where we need growth, whether it's taxes, finances, relationships. What have you Just getting education, getting resources in those areas? Talked about the importance of healing ourselves first, whether that's therapy, meds, whatever holistic care, rest, being in safe spaces, having community support at work, but also social connection. What advice would you give to survivor leaders? If there was one thing that you wanted to say to them, what would that be?

Juanita van Heerden:

give to survivor leaders. If there was one thing that you wanted to say to them, what would that be? Many cliche things that I can say you got this, you can do this, but honestly, I really would say that I would highly recommend prioritizing yourself.

Shamin Brown:

It really is an act of rebellion, to choose yourself.

Juanita van Heerden:

As women, we've been taught to submit and to not have a voice, and to be quiet and to be subservient, and those of us who are leaders say stick it to the man. We're not doing that, but the majority of women are still in a space where they don't have a choice, where they do have to depend on an abusive partner in order to be able to pay the bills or have food on the table, and so it is really difficult for so many women on a global scale. It really is so powerful if we're able to take care of ourselves. It's not selfish To me. Taking care of yourself, I've come to learn it's not a luxury, it's a necessity. It's an absolute necessity because, whatever I do, the state that I'm in, that is going to determine the quality of the work that I do. It's going to determine the quality of my interactions with somebody else.

Juanita van Heerden:

I'm not going to try and say cheap words like put this in place and you'll thrive, or do this and this, to me, it really is with. You are allowed to take up space, you are allowed to take care of your needs. You're allowed to communicate your needs. You're allowed to have those needs met.

Shamin Brown:

I am because you are, so there's this piece of I need to take care of you, because if I'm going to eat, you're going to eat, but there's also this piece of I need to make sure I eat because I am because you are, but you are also because I am. We need to be able to take care of ourselves so that we can take care of others. I love that. Is there a message of encouragement or guidance that you would leave for folks that are still fairly early in their recovery journey?

Juanita van Heerden:

The beginning stages is hard. It's the hardest. It's very challenging when your whole life is turned upside down and a lot of people expect you to just be grateful because everything is better now. Quote unquote it would really be to trust the process, as cliche as that might sound, because the process is scary and it's the unknown. You don't know. You haven't been there yet, you don't know what it looks like. There's so much uncertainty in that. But you've made it this far. You have made it this far. You are still alive. That is not nothing. That's a pretty big deal and you did that. You came there. You had and have the power within you to overcome hard things. It wasn't always your choice, but you did it and you can acknowledge that and you can give yourself the credit for that, because it is really hard and which means that you can continue to show up for yourself as well. But don't give up on the process.

Shamin Brown:

It genuinely does get easier I like to tell people you're the author of your own power.

Shamin Brown:

And then you made this really great point about how there are times where we don't have control over what happens, but we do have control over how we respond and who we reach out to and what strategies or otherwise that we access. Right Like, those are the things that we have, and when we can sit with the panic and the fear and the anger long enough, where it doesn't swallow us but it inspires us, it motivates us, it pushes us to access our community and our strength and our resources and our wisdom. That's the space where now we can really start writing new chapters in our life.

Juanita van Heerden:

One thing that I would actually add to that is it's okay to put boundaries in place. Slash highly recommended to put boundaries in place with toxic people, please. I had a conversation with someone today and she really just needs love and deserves that so much, and she was just talking about how this person and her family needs help and how she needs to help this person, and if they wanted to be helped, they would have helped themselves already by this time. We can't continue to always want to sacrifice ourselves for the sake of them. It's so important to put those boundaries in place because, as the saying says, givers need to have boundaries because takers have none.

Shamin Brown:

The challenge is that it's normalized. We've been giving the survivors more than we have to give from time, the vulnerability factors, the way we've been set up, even for groomers and predators to come, it's conditioned. That's where choosing you becomes really important is in those boundaries choosing self-respect, choosing self-worth, choosing self-love. However, boundaries for many survivors comes with a lot of guilt, because it feels like abandonment and we don't want to do to others what has been done to us. And finding that gray line with very black and white thinkers either I'm not talking to you or I am finding that gray line in the middle where maybe I'm just giving you a little less access to myself and I'm being more careful about when and how I respond.

Shamin Brown:

All those pieces very challenging in early recovery. Boundaries is a very loaded word loaded but super important because even often in our adolescence we're acting up because of some trauma or something that's happened and the adults and the caregivers in our lives are shutting us down. They're using boundaries, they're saying you are not allowed to act like that. We're experiencing neglect, we're experiencing dismissal, we're experiencing abandonment, and so to become older and be in a position where now you need to do that with others becomes really difficult without that community support, social support and healthy experiences that you've talked about earlier.

Juanita van Heerden:

It's so scary because you don't want to do the exact same thing that they did to you. Absolutely, you don't want to become there and you know what it's like to be on the other side. It should definitely be done gently and over time and, as you say, within the right limits, and that is why I all for myself with your earlier question about what has been so incredibly important in my healing journey has been a safe community. Who was my net that would catch me when I fall, that would be there for me when I felt sorry for someone that might have abused me before and wanting to take them back into my life or excuse their behavior, where they would be there as a support for me during that time. It doesn't fix everything, but it sure helps to be heard and to be seen during those times, and I know for so many people they don't have that, because oftentimes you have been isolated by the perpetrator and you don't have those healthy spaces and those healthy people around you. So it can be incredibly hard.

Shamin Brown:

Yeah, absolutely re-experience our own sense of abandonment or dismissal or whatever, when that person reacts in a way that's not favorable or empathic or understanding. You're not setting that boundary so that you can get their respect or acceptance. You're setting that boundary so that you can respect the boundaries of your inner child, your person in there who's experiencing discomfort, who needs to be protected. That boundary is for her.

Juanita van Heerden:

I love that you frame it like that.

Shamin Brown:

The keepers that we had were crappy. That's part of the process is learning how to be, because they never taught us how to do it.

Shamin Brown:

Yeah. So, even with the best intentions, we all are human and we have experiences and we're having to juggle with our own lives and sometimes we're not able to even be the keepers of others in the ways that we want to be or think need to happen as a result of a lack of internal resources energy support, what have you or external resources like money and time, always want to be really mindful of that. When I say harsh things like crappy keepers because I was a crappy keeper to my children during my addictions and my early recovery Not to say that I wasn't the best that I could be, not to say that they don't absolutely appreciate and value all of the hard work and growth and change that they've witnessed, but definitely to say that it was not perfect and harm was done and that's just a reality.

Juanita van Heerden:

It's so important that we acknowledge that as well. No child will come unscathed through this life. As long as we're human, as long as we're on an imperfect planet, as imperfect beings, we're unfortunately going to cause harm. For myself, I clearly remember at the age of four I told myself that I don't think I want to have children. I know most people do and want to, but for myself I was so scared of harming my children. I was too scared to even bring children into this world. Even at that age already, I guess I knew that you can't be alive and not get wounded. The important thing is, shamim, what you've said, that even though you realize that you have caused harm during your addiction days, the difference is that you're owning up to it.

Shamin Brown:

A huge component of parenting, especially parenting with trauma, I believe I feel deep in my soul, is rupture and repair. Because when we think about, shame is developed through those early experiences with caregivers and people in authority, that's when it starts to become internalized. Just when there's these ruptures in relationship, dad yells at you or mom yells at you and says whatever, or they spank you and then they leave and there's no conversation and there's no explanation and there's no experience. I, in juggling with mental health and things like that, would have angry outbursts early on before I was medicated. All these things and number one, being conscious, looking in their face, looking at their eyes, looking at the fear and how they're responding.

Shamin Brown:

So not allowing myself to be like it's okay because I am going through this thing, or I don't mean it, or it's my mental health All the excuses we can give and dismissing that look in their face. No, it's about noticing the impact that you're having and then, when you're able to sometimes it's a day later, sometimes it's an hour later going back and having that conversation and saying you don't ever deserve to be talked to like that from anyone or to have whatever the experience was. I'm going to take responsibility because I'm still healing. I need to manage. That is unacceptable for me to yell and scream like that or do whatever I did.

Shamin Brown:

I'm not apologizing about the issue we still need to talk about the issue but I want you to know that how I responded and handled that was not okay and that's not about you and it's not your fault and you don't own that, because that's mom's crap, not yours. You are a good person. Instead of them internalizing the shame where mom got angry at me because I made this mistake. Now maybe I'm a slob or I'm lazy or I'm not a good whatever. Whatever the upset was about, that rupture and repair is so huge when we are parenting, but especially when we're parenting with trauma, because we've got our own crap and we don't want it to become theirs and we need to be accountable for it the accountability piece is key.

Juanita van Heerden:

We're going to screw up that's a guarantee, but owning up to your stuff is really all the difference. I can work with someone that acknowledges that they've messed up. I can do that. We can meet each other the halfway, but when you refuse to acknowledge your part in it, it takes two wings to fly A relationship. I can't be the only wing to fly this thing. We need to work on it together, and so it's going to take accountability both ways To me.

Juanita van Heerden:

I have so much respect for parents that can acknowledge when they miss the mark Because for me, growing up, parents knew everything. I idolized them. I thought they were these superhuman beings that always had all the answers. I wonder if I would have engaged in life differently if they were a little bit different in terms of admitting when they made a mistake, et cetera. When I see some of our friends with children do what you just mentioned and say, hey, that wasn't okay. I acknowledge that I was wrong. We're still going to deal with the issue, but you didn't deserve that. I have so much respect for that. That is a crucial part of the healing and a lot of people don't get that closure. A lot of people don't get that closure. A lot of people don't get that affirmation. A lot of people are just left with oh no, so I am wrong.

Shamin Brown:

I am unworthy because of this thing that happened. That's something that can be happening in organizations as well. That can be something that can be happening with both our survivor leaders, and if you're a survivor leader working with survivors, it could be something that you're doing with survivors, because you're going to make mistakes too. You're going to impose your own experience and values at times, and that's okay, again, human, but can you catch it? Can you catch it and bring it back to them and say, hey, I noticed, I gave you this thing and it wasn't yours. Because that's where healing comes when people can come to you and say, actually, it's not all your fault and not just something that they say, but something that they own. I made a mistake too. We're going to be human together. We're going to grow together.

Juanita van Heerden:

Yes, Especially in trauma-informed care. I'll never forget the first time when I saw a leader in a way repent to those that they were leading and saying I missed the mark, I screwed up big time. You deserved someone to lead you better during this time, et cetera. That's so beautiful, because then, all of a sudden, it created the space for everybody else to say, oh my word, I have also screwed up, I also did this thing. Please, let's work through it. I love that. It just creates that safe, safe space for all of us to just be real and open. And it's so much more supportive as well because, in terms of accountability, if you see me screw up with that same thing that I apologized for, you can call me out on it before it gets out of hand.

Juanita van Heerden:

I know we spoke about this thing a couple of months ago. I see it, it's happening again. I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable. I can be like whoa. I'm sorry. Yes, thank you for bringing that to my attention. Let's not go there again. And Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Let's not go there again. And we can really cancel out a lot of unnecessary drama when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable in that space and just admit that we're human and that we're wrong, especially in trauma informed spaces. Of all of the spaces, that should be actually the safest space Exactly.

Shamin Brown:

It's not enough to just know about the impacts of trauma. We're informed about trauma. We know what it is. We know how it impacts people. We informed about trauma. We know what it is. We know how it impacts people. We know that it may not be visible in everybody. They're just not externalizing it in the way that others might be able to see that something's there. And when we know all of that, it's not enough to be trauma informed. We need to be trauma responsive. We need to take that information and act on it, create cultures where we're safe to be vulnerable, we're safe to be authentic, we're safe to make mistakes, we're safe to grow. And we don't do that by being the expert. We do that by being a fellow human who has some expertise, perhaps because you can also have some expertise one day as well, or you may have your own kind right now that you want to continue to develop. But we're all still human, expertise or not, we are human first.

Juanita van Heerden:

Something that I have seen as well is in an organization when there is disunity, the program beneficiaries pick up on that.

Juanita van Heerden:

A survivor is very sensitive, hyper sensitive, to their environment, and when there is disunity or we're not on the same page about stuff within the the staff of the organization, it really goes top down, that stuff filters through and it causes disunity within the survivors and that becomes a whole thing, and so it really has been so incredibly important for me, this kind of stuff that we're talking about, to really genuinely practice that and continue to practice that in an organizational setting, so that when the beneficiaries, as they are now learning a new normal, looking at us, seeing how we're going to solve problems, seeing how we're going to go about resolving a particular dispute, it's them looking at us seeing how we're treating each other respectfully, how we're allowing space for one another.

Juanita van Heerden:

A lot of it is reparenting at the end of the day, if you and I are the mom and dad that screams and shouts in front of the kids, or they know that they can come to mommy because mommy is nice, or daddy's going to give them sweets when mommy isn't, or whatever. We need to. If we stand together and we create that sense of unity and trust and safety between one another. It comes very easy to the ones who we actually there to serve and the ones who we really there to create a safe space for.

Shamin Brown:

I think I'm curious. I haven't asked you this, but do you want to tell me what you're doing, right?

Juanita van Heerden:

now with school I'm studying psychology. I've always been super fascinated by what, as they say, the human condition. It just sounds a little bit more dramatic when you say the human condition, but I genuinely like the inner workings of people so much, and especially seeing how our childhood impacts that, our experiences, what are different treatment options? It's just so fascinating. Human beings are just so fascinating and I just can never get enough of the inner world of people. I'm in my third year of studies. In South Africa. Bachelor is three years, but then the fourth year is what they call the honors degree and then after that is master's. So in a way it's still very much in the beginning stage of my studies. But it's so incredibly beautiful because I think a lot of my friends have said I've done the field work first and now I'm doing the theory. So I'm doing it the other way around, especially like having my own experiences, et cetera. But I think that is such a benefit because I'm 40 years old now and it's my first time really studying, and so it's really because of everything that I've already seen and experienced, especially in the nonprofit sector, whenever I'm learning new stuff in the psychology classes. A lot of it is yes, I've seen that A lot of it is just things clicking, and the main reason why I am studying is firstly, because I'm very interested in human beings and secondly, because it can inform my work so that I can really do the work that I can to the best of my ability. I do bring the experience piece, but I also acknowledge that I want to be as properly equipped as possible so that I don't hurt when I actually intend to help.

Juanita van Heerden:

My aim is not to become a full-time psychologist, because that's a very select, special group of people. I won't be able to do Monday to Friday, nine to five. I also can't sit still for long. I want to move around, but it really is such a blessing. Honestly and actually, I have this, I don't know adopted parents. Adopted parents, not legally, but they are just so amazing and loving. They offered to pay for my degree because it hasn't ever been something that I was able to do. They're my parents, they're American. I call them Mama and Papa in America and they call me their South African daughter, and it's so sweet and that's also such a healthy part of my healing. So healing is not really about the money that they're paying. It's more about the fact that they believe in me and that they see that I have something to bring to the world and that they want to advance that.

Shamin Brown:

Something thing to bring to the world and that they want to advance that. Something that comes up as important for survivor leaders in the research is to have their wellness be invested in, to have their training invested in, to take time to debrief with them and invest that as well in them, and you just said it so perfectly. It's not about the money that they've invested. It's about the fact that they've invested in you and your future and your potential to make a difference. It sheds a lot of light on the ways that we can be invested in, not just by organizations but by communities. So for my last question, this has been such an incredible conversation and I want to keep going. But for the last question, it's really just an opportunity for you to give a shout out to somebody that you feel has made a difference in your career or is invested in survivor leadership in a really good way.

Juanita van Heerden:

Firstly, I would like to give a shout out to every survivor that I've ever worked with. To me it's been such an incredible journey, so incredibly healing and beautiful. To me it's such a sacred honor to be allowed into a space where someone is healing. It's sacred ground for me. So it really isn't something I take for granted. Definitely to each one of them. I continue to be inspired by them on a daily basis and I have some really amazing friends. I know I'm going to upset some of them if I don't, because it's such a long list. I've been really blessed.

Juanita van Heerden:

But one of my friends she created Not I but we Madison Barefield.

Juanita van Heerden:

She has sacrificed so much to create a space for survivors where they can have dignified work in terms of being able to be proud, because in the South African context, the experience for a lot of women especially is that there hasn't been proper education A lot of times, even like for the first couple of grades in school, and that was about it.

Juanita van Heerden:

And so the work that not I, but we is able to provide for survivors is just so beautiful and so encouraging. Just seeing them come alive and thrive as they work there and discover different parts of themselves is so beautiful. I just have so many friends in the field that are in the field with me and on their own journey. I'm just just so grateful. I have really amazing friends the founder of S-CAPE, miriam, my other friend, bianca, who lives down the road we're absolute besties and just so many other people that work in this field who continue to stick it out. I can just think of so many different people who are such an encouragement to me and, like I said, on a personal level, my American parents and people who love me and care for me.

Shamin Brown:

I just really want that for everybody else. Yes, yes, you and me both. That's part of the reason for this podcast is spending years, decades, watching the lived experience. Professional movement grow in terms of being recognized as a best practice, bringing people on, hiring more people, putting people in positions of leadership, but not seeing them be supported in the ways that are meaningful in their recovery Once they hit a professional position, it's they're no longer survivors. We want to hire you for your trauma, but we don't want your trauma to show up and just the power power among survivors in doing this work and in healing themselves and while being a source of support to others and others who also are exposing folks to some real stories, some real severe challenges, barriers, traumatic experiences that they then carry while they hold their own.

Shamin Brown:

I have seen women fight for years to build their lives and then get these positions and not be supported and then relapse in addiction and lose their kids and to be told that they weren't ready, they weren't healed enough for the work they shouldn't have. It's your fault. You shouldn't have applied for this job. This is not an isolated experience. It is not you. The journey that you're on is normal. It is the same journey that every person in recovery experiences. Yes, there's going to be some things that are different. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but this is the journey. Those who don't understand it are going to try to make you feel like you're wrong for being on that journey. But there is community. There are people who will understand and who will be there and who will invest in you.

Juanita van Heerden:

I really just want to encourage you to continue on in this space. I'm vouching for you from the sidelines and I'm excited to see how you'll grow, just really hoping that some people will come alongside you and support you as you continue on in this very important journey. There really aren't enough spaces Survivor voices can be heard in this way. Thank you so much.

Shamin Brown:

Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, juanita, for being here, loved having you.

Juanita van Heerden:

Thank you so much for doing this and creating this space. It really is so important.

Shamin Brown:

And to all who are listening. Thank you for joining us for this conversation with our Sisters. Keeper Juanita Van Heerden. Thanks so much and we'll see you next time.

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