Why Staying Married Is the Hardest Part — And How to Do It Anyway | ft. Bonnie Comfort

Between years three and seven, most marriages hit a wall. The rose-colored glasses come off, the red flags you ignored start waving, and suddenly you're wondering if you chose the wrong person. Spoiler: you probably didn't. But nobody told you this was coming — and nobody taught you what to do when it does.

In this episode of Between the Sheets with Dr. Z, Dr. Stephanie Zwonitzer, DNP sits down with psychologist, author, and marital therapist Bonnie Comfort — yes, that's her real name — for a candid, deeply human conversation about what it actually takes to stay married. Bonnie spent 25 years in clinical practice in Portland, Oregon, and her memoir Staying Married Is the Hardest Part draws on both her professional expertise and her own 33-year marriage, which included sexual incompatibility, fetishes, infidelity, and ultimately — a love that lasted until her husband's death.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why most couples don't have a communication problem — they have an anger and resentment problem, and how to tell the difference
• The 3–7 year disillusionment pattern and why it's completely normal (and survivable)
• How childhood wounds show up in adult relationships as disproportionate anger — and how understanding that changes everything
• Why the small daily bids for connection your partner makes matter more than grand romantic gestures
• What mismatched libido and mismatched sexual desire actually look like in a long-term marriage — and what a 25-year therapist says to do about it
• Why fetishes and kinks are largely not amenable to therapy — and what that means for couples navigating sexual incompatibility
• How pillow talk, hot tub rituals, and 15-minute check-ins can do more for a marriage than a weekend getaway
• Love languages, the Gottman bids for connection, and why doing what your partner needs instead of what you would want is the real skill

Bonnie's memoir Staying Married Is the Hardest Part is available wherever books are sold. Find her at bonniecomfort.com and on Psychology Today.

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Transcript

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:01.249)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Between the Sheets. We're gonna have a nice conversation here today with Bonnie Comfort, who is a psychologist, speaker, and author. She is an expert on marital therapy and frequently appears on podcasts and speaking on topics related to marriage and self-esteem. And she wants to embolden women to advocate more clearly for themselves. She has a memoir called Staying Married is the Hardest Part.

and she has a first book that came out a while ago called Denial, which was a psychological thriller. So I'm excited to have you here, Bonnie. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Bonnie Comfort (00:36.802)
Thank you for inviting me on. I'm looking forward to it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:39.967)
Yeah, absolutely. So how long have you been working with couples in therapy?

Bonnie Comfort (00:46.914)
Well, many years. I've been in practice in Portland, Oregon for 25 years. And so that's a long time. Yes. And I don't do only couples. I do a lot of individual work as well. But a lot of marital work is done on an individual basis, sometimes more fruitfully.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:53.568)
Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (00:58.08)
Okay, excellent.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:05.111)
Sure, sure. What is maybe one of your most common threads that people come to you for when they're looking to improve their marriage?

Bonnie Comfort (01:15.544)
They're usually angry with each other and often they tell me they're coming to see me because I have a communication problem. But that is rarely what it is. It's really that there's anger and resentment and distance going on under the surface, feeling unappreciated, misunderstood, and they are really frustrated with each other.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:23.863)
Yeah.

Okay.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (01:41.247)
Yeah, yeah. What do some of the resentments stem from?

Bonnie Comfort (01:45.934)
Feeling unseen and uncared for, feeling like there's too much competition between them for who does a lot of the work if they have children, the work with children and home and responsibility. Each one often feeling burdened because they are, feel like they're doing the most and they're doing a lot. And being able to express appreciation to each other has fallen away.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (02:15.275)
Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (02:15.852)
And the connection, the connection of feeling close and understood has fallen away.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (02:21.397)
Yeah, and is that because they just kind of have a lot of other things going on and they become less intentional about their marriage? Or are you finding that it's like specific events have occurred that make this divide happen?

Bonnie Comfort (02:36.642)
Both, both. think that we do become complacent after a while about our relationship and may not tend to it. I I think of a relationship like a garden. has to be, the bad stuff has to be weeded out. You have to feed it. You have to give it sun and water. And that means, you know,

being attentive to your partner, not forgetting to say I love you, not forgetting to touch the other person several times a day at least and express appreciation. And so it's amazing really how far those kind of small gestures can go and how lonely people feel when that they're not there.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (03:22.645)
Yeah, do you find that this, I mean obviously is not an overnight switch, is there a common length of time that people really reach this kind of breaking point or is it different for every person and couple?

Bonnie Comfort (03:28.718)
you

Bonnie Comfort (03:36.85)
I think, well, it's a little bit different for every person and couple, but I think there is a pattern. I mean, we start out being incredibly in love, seeing mostly the good stuff, kind of ignoring the bad stuff and believing that this person is our mate and our soulmate and who we believe that person is. And then between years three and seven, I would say.

disillusionment sets in and you see the other side, you see the aspects of the person you don't like, there's not as much forgiveness in each of you or making allowance for the things that are aggravating. And the bloom is off the rose to go with the garden analogy. And then you feel disillusioned and disappointed. A lot of people divorce around that time, between three and seven years because

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:23.669)
Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (04:30.081)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (04:33.742)
they have stopped believing this is the right person for them and they're not able to bridge the gap. So it's, I think, you one of the things I wrote about in my book is that that's a normal pattern. It's normal, you know, between three and seven years to be disillusioned, to discover that all those red flags that you ignored in the beginning are really waving. And,

You know, there's a lot at stake sometimes in that if people have children. It's so costly emotionally and financially to separate and divorce and therefore so worth it to try to fix it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (05:18.923)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know I've heard of the seven year itch. So that makes sense to me with what you're saying with this three to seven year area of really difficulty. What are some things that people can do, maybe let's start prior to that. So when you're in that first zero to three years of marriage, what are some things that we can do to prevent even getting to that point?

Bonnie Comfort (05:35.714)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (05:45.016)
Really good question. And I think it depends on the quality of your dialogue. Not everybody is good at talking about their feelings and the relationship issues. I think in general, women are more trained to be open and be able to do that. But there are a lot of men who in our culture have been raised to be tough and hold their feelings in and be afraid that if they...

talk about things that are upsetting them, it's too vulnerable and they're weak. so being able to be tactful, but direct and honest about what's bothering you is one of the ways to prevent that kind of distance and deterioration. And I also think it's important to begin in the beginning to say, okay, we're going to emotionally keep house. We're not going to wait until things get so bad.

that you don't even know how to talk about it because it's so big.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (06:48.213)
Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's one thing that I learned because I've been divorced and one thing that I've learned over my years since and going through therapy myself and trying to become a better partner is the communication factor and how important that is and that sometimes it's

Bonnie Comfort (06:50.638)
It's like that.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (07:09.561)
more about not doing it in the heat of the moment, but saying like, let's take a pause, and then coming back to it when I've had time to process and can think rationally and speak more kindly. That's definitely something that I'm trying to maintain in my relationship.

Bonnie Comfort (07:26.69)
Very wise, very wise, because hurtful words can never be taken back once the other person hears them. They just go in and they stay in your memory. And so how to choose your words carefully is critically important in how well you can negotiate difference, express your anger, express your disappointment. But also what you want to express is you...

you know, I miss you. I feel lonely for the, you know, for the good times we had. I want to try to fix what isn't working right so that we don't, you so I don't keep going farther down that road. And I do think it's important to kind of practice that over smaller things that happened in the first few years so that you get better at negotiating and expressing yourself without it being destructive.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (08:21.419)
Yeah, that makes total sense. for the patients who are in clients, patients who are in that three to seven year mark, they're starting to have these issues. It's starting to feel icky. Did I not choose the right person? What are they doing? What should they be doing to kind of figure out whether or not they're staying?

Bonnie Comfort (08:23.16)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (08:27.64)
So, thank

Bonnie Comfort (08:41.838)
Well, that's two different questions in a way because, and sometimes one of the partners goes to individual therapy because they really want to explore their own feelings and think about, know, did I make a terrible mistake? Is this fixable? Do I really like this person? All of that. But when I see a couple together,

My goal is to have them leaving my office feeling better about each other than when they came in. And that doesn't, there's a lot of marital therapy that can be destructive in the sense if a therapist lets the two members really dump a lot of anger without stopping to say, let's understand where your anger is coming from.

what in your childhood has contributed to this. And that's really important because if you're able to have a dialogue with each partner in front of the other, they can develop more empathy for who they are married to. And it's remarkable how powerful that can be. For example, I may say, you know, I had a couple where the wife always felt like she was being

second best or ignored. And when I asked her about her personal history, it turned out that when she was a kid, she had a brother who was the star of the family and she always felt second best. So she goes into an adult love relationship afraid that that's gonna happen now. And when she feels ignored, that feeling comes up and it's angry. It's angry and it has a history.

And it's the story she's bringing to this new relationship where it's not necessarily like that. And I have had to, each of the pair be able to explore that with me out loud in front of the partner. And it's so freeing to realize you are reacting to an old wound and you are putting that defensiveness and that anger.

Bonnie Comfort (10:58.378)
into this new relationship where it is not relevant or at least you're exaggerating your response.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:04.855)
Yeah, that makes complete sense. I love that you kind of take them back to work through that and that it's not always an issue within their current relationship. That's really interesting.

Bonnie Comfort (11:15.904)
It's a trigger for them. We understand that word, but it's a trigger that triggers a much bigger reaction than is appropriate to the present day.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (11:26.207)
Yeah, yeah. So if they can kind of start to work through that past issue and that hurt from then, then that can translate into working through it in their current relationship.

Bonnie Comfort (11:32.078)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (11:37.856)
I think so certainly each of them being aware that this is something the other person struggles with helps. And I also think that it's in couples therapy, it's very valuable for each partner to be able to get underneath the anger and resentment to the vulnerability that is always there. The feeling like

You don't really care about me. I don't feel like you really see me. I don't think, you you, you want me anymore. And those are the feelings that fuel the bad behavior, anger and resentment and having an affair, all of it. This feeling of no longer being treasured the way you were in the beginning that was so intoxicating and wonderful.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (12:30.849)
Yeah. When you have couples, you know, or individuals, do you suggest that they do premarital counseling, early marriage counseling? Do you wait until there's a problem? What is your take on that?

Bonnie Comfort (12:36.622)
See you.

Bonnie Comfort (12:52.608)
I think it's interesting for a couple to go to counseling early, even before marriage, and prepare themselves for how to be diplomatic, how to express what they need without getting ugly. And I think it can be incredibly helpful to do that. I know some people who have done that and haven't had to go to therapy later, which is really nice. But I think it's a skill you can learn.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:17.59)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (13:23.03)
And if you're learning it together, it is incredibly valuable. And I also think sometimes going to a weekend workshop that's kind of immersive where you put aside everything else you're doing and spend and totally focus on your relationship and your partner, you can do a lot in a weekend couples workshop.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (13:44.395)
Yeah, that's a great idea. love that.

Yeah, when I was early married to my first husband, had a we were very involved in our church at the time and they had a marriage mentoring situation and you could be paired up with a couple who had been married for 10 plus years and you were a newlywed or something and there were some really great conversations that came out of that and you know, they weren't therapists or anything like that. just couples who have been there done that learned and it was a really

Bonnie Comfort (13:47.47)
this.

Bonnie Comfort (13:57.582)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (14:15.256)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (14:16.815)
situation you got to be really close with these people and learn some really great things from them and so that might be another alternative too if somebody doesn't have you know a good quality therapist in their area or they just don't necessarily want to do maybe like the regimented therapy or something they could go around a different route but I think you're right I think developing those communication skills and conflict

resolution skills are so important because a lot of us didn't learn that growing up.

Bonnie Comfort (14:49.664)
Absolutely not. I mean, I think in some high schools, they're teaching it now, which is wonderful. But the concept of nonviolent communication is so helpful, really, in any relationship to find a way to feel empathy for the other person before you start your accusations, before you start really expressing what you need to be able to imagine what it feels like to be the other person and understand the other person's, you know,

early wounds, because everybody has childhood wounds, whether they're big or small, they're there, to understand that, to understand how they made decisions about how you should behave in a relationship. Often it's modeled at home and it's not necessarily the best, and you can learn a new one from a couple like this. I think that's a fabulous thing that you have shared. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (15:42.507)
Yeah, yeah, it was a really neat idea. That's really cool. Tell me more about your book, The Staying Married is the Hardest Part. Tell me about that.

Bonnie Comfort (15:48.344)
for

Bonnie Comfort (15:53.55)
Well, I was very much in love with my husband as he was with me. And we had a long marriage, 33 years, until he died, which was very heartbreaking for me because we adored each other from beginning to end. But we also had a sexual incompatibility that made that area of our relationship

Sometimes a challenge, a lot of times it was fun and it was fine, but there were times when it was really upsetting to me and I was angry and I would say, no, my husband had fetishes. liked to, he liked to peek in windows and he loved to take photographs. And I was his model. I was a subject. He was deeply in love with me and he wanted me to post for photographs and

He wanted to peek at me outside the window and sexual poses. And I felt lonely doing that. I loved him. And sometimes it was fun. And sometimes I felt, you know, pretty or sexy from doing it. But a lot of times I felt let down. I, and he kind of needed this in order to really be as excited as he wanted to be. So we fought about this on and off for years, for years.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (16:59.533)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (17:17.358)
And also he would sometimes sexually shut down for long periods of time. And I would kind of nag him or ask him. And he started saying to me, I just can't do it right now. Go out and find it somewhere else and just don't tell me about it. And so I wound up having some extramarital affairs. I was not in love with those people. It was really for attention.

more than the sex, and the sex was never that great. But I felt angry with my husband for pushing me away in that way. I wasn't mature enough to... Well, there really was no way to fix it. He either was shut down or he couldn't do what the... He couldn't sexually be with me the way I wanted to be. We compromised and it was fine. I used a vibrator with him and it worked just fine. But...

the trajectory of our marriage changed over those decades. And in the last 10 years we were together, we had come to peace with each other and he stopped nagging me to do what I didn't want to do. And when I did want to pose for him or put on lingerie, he was delighted and it was fine. And so it took a long time. It took a long time for that to.

you know, change and morph into something. So what I've written about in my book as my marriage, my marriage is an example is that it's such a challenge to stay in the relationship and try to work it out. And if you're deeply bonded and you still love the other person, it is possible, but sometimes it is the hardest part to tolerate your differences, to tolerate the, you know, the disappointing parts and stay.

So that's the title.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (19:15.393)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, I really appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that. think the listeners that we have on this podcast specifically will be really helpful to them. You know, we have a lot of listeners who deal with mismatched libido's, mismatched desires, mismatched kinks, things like that. And it is very painful. And a lot of people don't know who to turn to, who to talk to, because it's not necessarily something that you want to bring up with your girlfriends over

Bonnie Comfort (19:33.09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (19:47.885)
coffee or wine or whatever, that's a very delicate situation.

Bonnie Comfort (19:53.268)
It's embarrassing. Yeah, it's embarrassing. you know, I had a reading in a book group, a book club last month. And one of the women who'd read my book said to me, I just wanted to slap you. Which kind of stunned me. But it was what you sometimes might get from a girlfriend. Like, you know, why are you putting up with this? Why don't you just get out? And it just doesn't.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:09.025)
What? Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (20:21.61)
appreciate the complexity of long-term love and how you can have a mismatch in one area sexually and still love this person dearly and not want to leave them. And so we kind of caught in this agonizing dilemma, which is hard to live with. And finding a way through it is very, very helpful. And I do think also that

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:46.347)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (20:50.11)
know, mismatched libido and mismatched sexual desire is pretty common in marriage.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (20:55.723)
Yeah, I absolutely agree. What are some things that we can help the listeners who are experiencing that? What can they start conversations with? Should they be seeking out counseling? What are your suggestions for people who are also going through kind of mismatched desires and libidos?

Bonnie Comfort (20:57.623)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (21:13.848)
Well, I think people change over time. so a mismatched desire is not necessarily a deep problem in the relationship because everybody goes through phases where they are not feeling great or not so interested and then can be interested again. I think when you have a deeper mismatch like I had with my husband where he had a kink that I

You know, I didn't and I didn't want that. It's, you know, I went at some point being a therapist, I went to see a therapist to talk about this and she was a very experienced, mature psychiatrist. And I spent one hour with her because she said to me, I can tell you this, fetishes and kinks are not amenable very much to therapy.

You're not going to get anywhere. But I mean, I used to tell him, go to therapy. And he went to therapy, but it didn't change that. She said, that's not going to change. So I left there having a deeper understanding that if we were going to stay together, we were going to have to find a way to work around it. But in this situation of mismatched desire, I think that happens very commonly in most marriages for some phases.

You know, like when, you know, if one of them is exhausted from working, you know, 12 or 14 hours a day, not necessarily up for it. If women are breastfeeding or they have lots of, you know, kids hanging off them, the last thing they want is to have a guy pawing their breasts. And and also, you know, women go through menopause or, you know, hormonal changes happen or medical things happen. So there's lots of reasons why there can be

Stephanie Zwonitzer (22:56.845)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (23:08.458)
mismatched desire, but I think emotional intimacy and physical contact is the most basic and bonding aspect that can be continued, even if you're not feeling sexy, if you're not actually, you don't want intercourse, or you don't feel like getting aroused, it's incredibly nurturing to have the person you love.

touch you and in whatever way that, you know, a nonsexual way that is so nurturing. And you can cuddle and you can, you know, sleep together if you can sleep together.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:44.279)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (23:50.669)
Yeah, Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think one of my favorite things with my partner is cuddling and just we have such deep conversations and, know, we jokingly call it pillow talk because it's always when we're getting ready for bed. But it's it is it's just this time that we talk about things that

are different than just what we did during the day. It's like, hey, I was thinking about this memory from when I was a kid, or what do you think about this? Or we talk about our five-year plan, or whatever it is. But it's so intimate because we're also cuddling during that time. And it might be dark in the room, and we're not even facing each other or making eye contact, but there's just this level of intimacy that we don't get when we're sitting at the dinner table talking over dinner or something.

Bonnie Comfort (24:14.318)
I'm

Bonnie Comfort (24:38.446)
And yes, it's something about being horizontal and next to each other. And it just, I got goosebumps when you were talking about that, because I have that, I had that experience with my husband for so many years that we would just, he would get, sometimes it was in the afternoon and he liked to nap and he would say, come and lie down with me. And I would lie down with him. I put my head in the crook of his arm, you know, and we would talk and talk about anything. And it was so emotionally intimate to be just,

kind of sharing our thoughts about whatever. And to me, that is so bonding. And it's not, it doesn't require the guy to have an erection or the woman to have an orgasm that quick.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:14.209)
Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (25:22.711)
Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. you know, we talked about that a lot on this podcast, too, is that intimacy doesn't necessarily equal penetration. It doesn't necessarily equal having an orgasm. There's a lot of different ways to enjoy each other and to be intimate together. And whether those are because you're just overtired for today and things just aren't feeling right or medical issues, like you said, things outside of our control. But it is it's amazing to me just that closeness and that connection that

you can get with other forms of intimacy. know, and I think society wise, we put so much emphasis on P and V and orgasms that everybody thinks that that is what is sexy and that is what is intimate. And I have found much more intimate situations without penetration than with it.

Bonnie Comfort (26:05.26)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (26:16.514)
Yes, I have had the same experience of feeling, to feel seen and known and to share your thoughts and to have a reflection back from you and an equal sharing. It's the best. It's being known and cared for and going through life with somebody, feeling seen, witnessed. And, you know, like I have a niece who, she and her husband,

have a hot tub and they have a ritual every single day at five o'clock. They get in the hot tub for just maybe 15 or 20 minutes and they talk. And it's incredibly bonding. It's so nurturing and, you know, it gives you a sense of peace with each other.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (26:59.861)
Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think about just like my friendships and, you know, relationships with family members and we don't have that level of physical intimacy, right? Because that would be inappropriate in those relationships. But, you know, the conversations and the level of connection that you can have in those relationships, I feel like is mirrored in a romantic relationship when you take the time to have those conversations and that intimacy outside of

physical sex.

Bonnie Comfort (27:31.65)
Yes, I think so too. And I think it's nurturing for both of you in that way and to feel, it just so deepens the connection between you to know what the other person is thinking and wanting to share it with you.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:39.339)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (27:50.229)
Absolutely, absolutely. Do you have patients that come and see you and kind of their biggest pain point is their sexual health and their sexual relationship?

Bonnie Comfort (28:06.402)
I don't think usually that that is the complaint that's front and center. It's in there, you know, because what happens when you feel angry and distant for other reasons, then you disconnect sexually and it's a problem. But I haven't had too many who are specifically coming because our sex isn't good and we wanna fix it. I mean, a lot of people who have that go to sex, specifically sex therapists and that's...

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:13.59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:30.41)
Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (28:34.796)
Sure. Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (28:35.32)
That's a good idea.

Sexual connection is fragile in a way. We are all fragile. have ways in which we feel shame about our body or our performance or what goes on inside of us that we may or may not want to share. mean, some people, women particularly have a very strong sexual fantasy life and usually a fantasy that leads to orgasm and they may have never told their husbands about that. It depends on how

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:03.052)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (29:11.086)
how safe they feel to reveal that. So yeah, I haven't seen too many couples where that's the front and center thing. And it's always in there though. Always in where our relationship is not going, yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:13.132)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:25.14)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it makes sense. Yeah, and it makes sense if you're not communicating while you're starting to be resentful, things like that, that you would back away from that intimate connection. So that does make sense that it's part of it, but maybe not the center star of what brought them in.

Bonnie Comfort (29:42.562)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (29:43.232)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's so interesting to listen to you talk about this because it's so important and it's just, I think sometimes we take for granted our closest relationships and we don't put the effort in where we're going hard at work. We're making these connections to sell things or do whatever. You know, we make a priority for girls night to hang out with our friends and when we kind of take our marriages,

our partnerships for granted that, this person's just going to be there, so I'll get to it later. How do we shift that priority and make our partner and that our romantic relationship center stage so that we take care of that first?

Bonnie Comfort (30:30.734)
I think the best thing is for each partner to be on the lookout for signs that things are not going as well, on the lookout for signs that your partner is distant or doesn't want to engage or doesn't want to have sex or wants to spend more time away from you. And that is the time to stop and say, hey, let's have an evening together. Let's talk about our relationship.

And, you know, sometimes, you know, the last thing a guy wants to hear is I need to talk to you. But if you can make it, you know, not so heavy a thing and not starting with a criticism, that to me is the thing to monitor signs that things that you're getting more distant, the things are not going well, and then deal with it soon. Don't let it go on for too long. And, you know,

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:05.706)
Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (31:32.76)
Couples in their early 30s, newly married, often are working really, really hard. They're working to establish themselves financially, to establish their careers. And it's easy to start taking granted, taking the relationship for granted. They come home exhausted, or they're both working from home in different rooms online. And there gets to be less and less. So I think we have to be intentional about it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (31:56.225)
Yep.

Bonnie Comfort (32:01.132)
I don't necessarily think it has to be date night. I think it can be, let's carve out 15 minutes today to just connect and sit and hold hands or talk about, me how you're feeling today. What is it that's going on? And if you have a relationship like that, where that has been there from the beginning, it's pretty easy to fix. It's really easy to reconnect.

partner and it may be, you know, it's not just men who are not necessarily experienced and talking about their feelings. There's plenty of women who are, who don't know what they feel inside and just want to focus on tasks and external activity. And so, you know, that's not, you know, it's not a one way street. And it is important to be able to

Stephanie Zwonitzer (32:37.302)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (32:56.738)
Think about that before you really get into relationship trouble.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:00.618)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to me. I think that is such a great advice to, you know, be

watching to see when things change and pay attention to that. Yeah. I also think it's really great to, you know, pay attention to what the other person might be struggling with as far as, you know, do I just need to pick up some slack today because they had a bad day? Should I grab their favorite cup of coffee while I'm out today? Or should I throw in the laundry? Something to just kind of ease their burden when you notice things are difficult, or they're having a bad day because I think

Bonnie Comfort (33:08.684)
Yeah, watching. Right.

Bonnie Comfort (33:34.446)
Bye!

Stephanie Zwonitzer (33:37.654)
for a lot of people that speaks volumes. And then maybe if you do something like that, they will have those 15 minutes to spend with you and to connect with you.

Bonnie Comfort (33:48.44)
Well, you're touching on something important, which is the concept of love languages. And people feel, you know, different ways about how they want to be loved. There are some people who love nothing more than to have a partner take care of those things, take out the garbage, go to the grocery store, make dinner. Any of those things feel so, they feel so grateful for it and so glad and feel so loved.

Other people, that doesn't matter to them at all. They want the words, they want the physical touch, they want meaningful conversation. So it really is helpful for each partner to know what the other one experiences feeling loved. And often they're not the same. their love language isn't the same. So being able to do what the other person wants instead of what you know you would like is a great leap forward.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (34:17.718)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Bonnie Comfort (34:43.746)
But the other thing that the Gottmans talk about, their famous marriage lab in Seattle, they talk about the fact that every single day there are moments where one partner may make a bid for connection with the other. And the other one has the opportunity to recognize it and respond or turn away. Just something like, I'm not sure what I...

I don't know what to wear today. The other person can say, well, you know, what are you thinking about? You know, show me your choices. And or they can say whatever you wear is fine and leave the room. And that's a difference in how the the quality of the relationship goes or just, you know, I'm feeling lousy today. Well, have a drink. You know, so shutting out of with the other person's

wish to be seen and heard is damaging to the relationship in micro ways and it accumulates over time. And it's so smart to be aware of that. My partner's asking me to connect in some way. I'm going to do it.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:01.676)
Yeah, that makes total sense. I love that you just brought that up because I think it's so easy to blow past those moments. Yeah, that's such a great example too. Like what should I wear? What looks good on me or something like that. It's because I do that all the time. What kind of meal are we going out for? Should I dress nice or should I throw on a sweatshirt?

Bonnie Comfort (36:09.974)
Yes, easy.

Yeah.

Bonnie Comfort (36:25.343)
Right.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (36:26.752)
Yes, absolutely. Well, I think that this has been a fabulous conversation and that our listeners are definitely going to have some great nuggets to take home from this. How can people be in touch with you and what kind of things do you have to offer?

Bonnie Comfort (36:41.58)
Well, I'm really not in practice anymore, so I can't do any direct patient care. But I am available for conversation, I guess. My website is bonniecomfort.com, and you can find me there. And I am going to be starting a sub-stack talking about observations about love and other vulnerabilities.

And I'm writing, I'm writing. I'm writing essays and hopefully I'm writing essays that are posted on psychology today. So if they want to see what I'm writing there. So.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:26.11)
And your book is available all over the place, I'm sure.

Bonnie Comfort (37:28.938)
It is. It's available anywhere. Anywhere you can buy a book, can buy my book. Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:33.652)
Excellent and that staying married is the hardest part. So that's fabulous. I love that Bonnie. Thank you so much for being on here I love the fact that you're a Therapist and your last name is comfort like you're bringing people compass like you were you were made to do this

Bonnie Comfort (37:48.526)
Well, I've had some people say to me, did you make that up? Yeah.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (37:53.13)
That's so great. I love it. What a fabulous conversation today. And definitely everybody go find her book and read this for some good tips and tricks on how to have the healthiest marriage and to work through those tough times. Thank you for listening to us again. Don't forget to check out revive ish.com for all your health and hormone needs. And we will see you next time. Don't go forget, go have some fun between the sheets.

Bonnie Comfort (38:17.134)
Thank you so much, Stephanie. It's been wonderful, wonderful conversation.

Stephanie Zwonitzer (38:21.088)
You're welcome.