Ira Mandela Siobhan: Overcoming Dyslexia and racism, a lesson from Tom Cruise, and why artistic perfection doesn't exist

Ira Mandela Siobhan is a leading Actor, Dancer and Movement Director, and joins Ali and Unique directly from final rehearsals for The Grapes of Wrath at the National Theatre where he is Movement Director. 

In this conversation Ira shares personal insights into his childhood growing up as the only Black kid at school, moving from the basketball court into dance training, and how his path led him to starring on stage with DV8, Shakespeare's Globe, on the West End, working with Tom Cruise and improvising scene ideas with Ryan Reynolds and Margot Robbie on the Barbie movie.

At every step on his journey Ira has found courage and resilience to challenge himself and put his creative ideas and goals out there, and he shares the methods behind his work ethic with Ali and Unique.

More details about Ira's masterclasses: https://www.iramandela.com 

Hosts & Guests:
Ali Godfrey (Host)
Unique Spencer (Host)
Ira Mandela Siobhan (Guest)

Email: actingstrong@generationarts.org.uk
www.actingstrong.com

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Produced & Edited by: Ali Godfrey

Acting Strong is brought to you by Generation Arts and sponsored by the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama
www.generationarts.org.uk
www.cssd.ac.uk

Transcript

Hello, everyone. You are listening to Acting Strong. It's a podcast that helps explore resilience for stage ready, mind ready artists. It's brought to you by Generation Arts, and it's sponsored by Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. We are your hosts.

I'm Unique, a professional actor. And I'm Ali, founder of Generation Arts. In today's episode, we are chatting to actor and dancer Ira Mandela Chabon about his resilience working on movies like Barbie and Mission Impossible, but also about his extensive theatre career in the West End at the National Theatre and starting out with DBA. Ira's chatting to us from backstage at National Theatre, where he's currently in rehearsal. Let's get started.

Hello. Hi, Ira. Hi, Ira. Hi mate.

That's okay. No. It's a it's a full on day. Under pressure. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. So how's, life been? What have you been up to? What are you doing at the moment? Right now, I'm right in the middle of, massive show, Grapes of Wrath, at the National Theatre, which is, yeah, being we're day we're week 2, so it's there's 90 30 cast members.

So it's absolutely huge. I'm movement directing it. So it's like my kind of biggest job as a movement director I've done. So it's a great challenge. It's a huge story, huge production, but it's really exciting, really, really exciting to have this this scale, and to play with.

I have been doing stuff like Guildhall. I just I just did movement director for the Guildhall, which was, again, a great experience, big cast, big ensemble, big movement pieces, which was really great. And then before that, I was doing I was actually performing as Othello. I was playing subconscious Othello at the Globe Theatre. So, yeah, kind of now made much more of a transition into the direction recently and kind of pushing that direction much more in theater based stuff.

Is that kind of what you what you want to focus on now, or is that just because these opportunities have come up? No. I wanted to focus so the the opportunities started coming up, like, just not long after COVID when I was doing more kind of TV and film stuff because theater was nonexistent because of COVID. But then as it stopped picking up, I started getting a few moving diaries, and I was like, oh, let me give it a go. I always thought about me doing it, and and I did a few jobs.

And I was actually quite enjoying it. And then I got the one job that I absolutely loved, and I was like, okay. This could be a real thing here. But I still wanted to kind of pursue getting still doing some more acting stuff. And then I got to the point, I think it was last year, where I was like, now I want to actually push into this now.

It was almost like this these opportunities were starting to come to me rather than me seeking them. And it's this weird thing where opportunities come to you, you kinda go, oh, yeah. Do I want to? You don't know if you're not fully sure yet. So but it got to a point where it took me a while to figure out, is it something that I want to pursue?

And then once I've kind of gone yes is, it then became very, empowering to go, I'm making a choice to do it. And I'm go I'm actually really leaning into it. So that's that's how I've actually become came here to get this job. It's because I emailed Carrie Cracknell because I knew what kind of work she does, and she might be interested in me working with her. And it was months ago, and then she got back saying, oh, I'm not around at the moment, but this sounds great.

And then months later, she contacts me about coming into a workshop to do this job. This is a whole different thing. We're we're dealing, like, you know, a car we're dealing with cars just come in now that we're dealing with on stage, which is nearly a 100 years old that they've remade, and we're getting, like, nearly 10 people on it while spinning it with actors spinning it. And it's like it just behaves in a whole different way, like, cause tilting and all this stuff. So it's like now I'm dealing with I'll do, like, I'm doing physics now.

Do you know what I mean? I'm a new director to now learning about how a, you know, a 90 year old car returning with 10 people on it. So it's and it's it's I've learned learned a hell of a lot from this process because it's it's about holding your nerves and the and and coming back to centering in yourself. Just on the what you were saying about how you, you wrote to Carrie Cracknell, the theater director, and you you've kind of just asked people, and you've you've kind of put yourself put your neck out there a little bit, and and asked. Yeah.

For any young person listening who's thinking about, you know, cold writing to someone or emailing someone, how how do you go about that, and and how do you feel about that? Do you ever have any doubt, or are you just super confident that stuff like that? Oh, good. I I so but I'm I'm actually that's out slightly out of my career in in lots of ways to do something like that. I'm the worst at not doing emails and chasing people, and I'm I through my career, I've been really I could do way more.

And it's because of you do put yourself out there. You're putting yourself out there. You feel vulnerable. And then if you get a rejection or you don't get any back, it's like, what does that how does that affect you? But I think that over time, especially a big one of doing I've done lots and lots of cell tapes, and that's been a massive the self tape game as to self tape game, because it is a game, is you I spent 2 I spent 2 years, that's it, of going.

I I I I was seeing it all in the wrong way. I was seeing as I'm I'm gonna do this work, put it out there, and I'm gonna try and get this job. And I had to change my mind my mindset to I'm doing a self tape to learn how to do self tapes better. So because what was happening was I was doing it, I'm feeling like I was getting almost dejected because I put all this work in, and I'm not getting anything back. I'm pulling something out there.

Nothing's coming back. It's just a waste of time, and I'm on the grind. But when I changed my mindset to go, actually, wait a minute. I'm getting better at this. Every time I'm doing it, I'm getting better.

That's the game. That's what's the interesting thing. That's what's special, and that's what I'm gaining out of this. So it's not great waste. It's actually enriching my learning.

It's enriching my acting. It's enriching my, my way of, you know, kind of how I I put this whole thing together to send off to someone to see the best of me. So I think that there is definitely that kind of mentality shift changed my my perception and really leading on to, like, cold kinda emails or reaching out to people. It's a similar thing. There is a way of doing it.

You start to learn, but you only learn by actually putting yourself out there and doing it and looking as not, oh, is it someone, eject dejecting you or not feeling like it's personal thing. It's like, actually, everyone's doing really everyone a lot of people are busy. A lot of people are in their own worlds. And that when you do send something out, but you never know it might go to something for you to I again, it's like it's like doing things out there. I never expect to get a callback.

I never expect to get the job from it. I just do the work that's in front of me because I'm gonna learn from it. Same thing when you send an email out and to other people is going, actually, I'm learning how to put an email together with the right language and and to reach out. And and also when you do that, it's like what I said before. When you send that when you put it on paper and send that thing, it becomes a reality, and it's almost like you're saying it to yourself that you are worthy of this job and to work with this person and them to to to work know your work and as a collaborator rather than go a, oh, please see me.

Please, you know, do something for me. Something you said just reminded me of a silly example, but when I was first starting Generation Arts, and I had this idea, I kind of knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't have any funding or anything like that. And I had a couple of names for the for the company, and I hadn't quite decided. But then I found myself in front of someone who could provide a lot of money and could and was basically willing to give me money. And I sort of and they said, what's it called?

So I just went, generation arts. And that was the moment where it was Generation Arts. And I knew I thought I was like, I'm saying it. It's happening. And it was like, in that moment, it manifested.

Yeah. But, yeah, sometimes you just have to put it out there, like you say. I've heard so many stories like that where people lived on the same, but and and not to be afraid of holding it close. Because this does nothing to anything, anyone, or to you. You do this by holding it tight, whether it's an idea, whether it's it's a career thought of going, oh, I'm gonna do that, but I'm not gonna tell anyone.

You're you're doing yourself a disservice. It's even like an audition, isn't it? It's a little bit like auditioning and, like, waiting till you're perfect before you show anyone, actually, or or writing. Like, you you should show your workings. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I think that was definitely a very valid point I see what you say about being perfection, and that's what I struggled with. I because I went from a dance background. I trained and trained and trained and he's not to push yourself, and I was looking at it very much as like perfection, perfection, perfection.

I need to get my foot there. I need to get this there. And it it it's one of those things. Again, if I was started again from the brain that I have now developed and started training over again, it wouldn't be about getting perfection. It'd be about how I can keep pushing the boundaries.

So, again, it's just changing the mindset of rather than going for perfection, which does not exist, it's about pushing the boundaries, which just changes. You might get to a similar place, but you can get there in a different way. Yeah. It's so amazing. I could talk about all this for forever.

Can we just talk about Barbie? Because I just have to because that was wonderful. Barbie girl. What what what what was it like bit working on Barbie? What was it like?

It was incredible. It's, like, one of those things that I look back on now, and I just go, I didn't realize how incredibly it was when I was doing it. And it's one of the things that I really try to every job I do now is really especially after the pandemic and after you know, when life's hard is really enjoy what you're in, what money's good. And I look back and I go, it's just it's just after the pandemic. And I was working with these incredible people, credible artists.

It was mental. I was only for 3 months. I was helping create some of the movement where there's 5 of us at the beginning. I got to work closely, like, one to one with Brian Gosselin and with Margaravi. And so there was, like, a few of us working with them individually, which was just such an amazing experience.

And being on the Barbie set, these sets were huge, and and being around just that kind of there was, like, there was, like, all the Kens. There was, like, 20 of us plus, on the set every day. And then you have, like, I think it was, like, 30 Barbies, like, core Barbies. So you gained to know all these different people and working with them. And and yeah.

And working with, Greta Gerwig, Being on set with her was phenomenal. She is so chilled. So, like, just freed up from this kind of this beast of, like, you know, Hollywood or Warner Brothers world, which is such a big machine. Whereas you come into that studio and then shoot much more freer than than the machine, if that makes sense. But to see over, like, a really long period of time people coming and going and how the whole production works, was invaluable.

And I had I've got a little story, which is really fun. It's one day, we're in the studio, and Ryan Gosling comes in. He was like, I've got this idea, guys. I've got this music, and could someone just, like, get up and have a, you know, play around? And I was like, I was sitting there, and the choreo said, I looked at him and he goes, Ira.

And I'm like, yeah. Okay. And he's got this, he's got this code and he's like, yeah, I just want this code to be like reversing my muscle in her knee and feel like, you know, kind of like he's like, I'm having this dance with it, but he's like pulling me down and all this kind of stuff. Did you have a go? So he had his own music.

He had this idea, and I had to basically bring his ideas to life in front of in front of Ryan Gosling. Like, this is like I like this. I don't know what's going on. This call be real. So everyone sits down and, like, there's it's not that many of us.

Thanks. Thanks for that. They put some music, and then I do this whole, like, kind of improv with this coat of, like, you know, driving it. Like, it's really heavy, then he becomes a baby, and then I'm dancing with it, and then he swallows me up and, like, all the kind of very, physical theater language. He's like, oh my god.

This is incredible. Oh my god. When Greta gets here, can you show Greta like this? I'm like, okay. So Greta comes with Scorsese, d o p, and and then she's and so she's like, no pressure, Ira.

Let's go. I didn't I'm like, you know this is improvised, and it's not gonna be the same. So, yeah, I did the whole thing, and it was yeah. It was just one of those moments where you're just like, things I'll never ever forget this rest of my life doing a solo. It was like and also because the improvise did it for, like, 2 and a half minutes, 3 minutes, a solo in front of these people.

But that was the original that was the star of, you know, the big, I'm just 10 I'm just 10 song. That was that. That was the original idea that he was fine with his coat. So then it became turned into a song, and then that kind of idea kind of disappeared, and he became more of a spectacle of all the dancers doing everything. But he came from that kind of him fighting with his masculinity, was the the that was, like, the seed of it.

What a story. Absolutely incredible. And, like, so just just looking at, like, your CV and the things that you've done, there's a lot of things that are, like, childhood sort of stories. So you've done, like, Robin Hood. You've done The Lion, and which in the wardrobe, and, obviously, you've done Barbie.

Just going back to sort of, like, childhood and and what that was like for you sort of growing up in South Yorkshire as sort of the only black kid around and having this sort of love for basketball and dance. Like, how did that all sort of lead you into the industry? I I guess a lot of my kind of beginnings of, like, getting into, like, physic anything physical was when me and my mom moved out of Sheffield from the city into the countryside. So that was in, like, mid nineties, around that time. I was 7, and I kind of was dealing with a lot of racism or the the racism was kind of put into, you know, different forms, whether it was, a kind of, like, more kind of hatred or the the more classic or it was something that was kind of, facetized.

I never say that word. But, like, but but, like, it was really, really extreme. Either there are people all over me, or they were repulsed by me, or they were confused. So that was a whole thing that I had to kind of deal with, and also my mom was white. And and that was also something that was quite also another thing.

And, also, I had a single parent. So it was, like, quite a lot of stuff. And then I found out I was severely dyslexic when once I got to do penning in this this small town. So my confidence was shot to pieces. So I basically didn't have any I barely I didn't really talk very much, and, I was at the bottom of every class.

But when coming out was, like, when we had the discos, like, every time they have a disco at school, I would break out, start dancing, and then all of a sudden people would recognize that they kind of see me for who I was. I want to be my friend and all this kind of stuff. And then I started getting to football and and running and karate and, like, literally every something every single day of the week. But when I started going down the kind of acting movies, it was always like a thing of people saying, well, they can't read the text, so it's gonna be really hard to copy in the production. So then that kind of was kind of taken out for me really early.

So then that's when I started going. My mom was pushing in too for me to that do more dance. To to be honest, I would not be here if it wasn't for my mom. My mom loved contemporary dance. She was she she wasn't an artist, but she really liked going and seeing it.

So she was always seen that I had the ability for dancing kind of putting me into different spaces as I was growing up. I was head into basketball. I played for Yorkshire and Sheffield shops, and, and then I started kind of trying to move schools as well to get more support. I ended up going to Huddersfield School. Then from Huddersfield, I end up becoming more connected to the more of the black community in the Huddersfield, which then was connected to doing street dance and and breakdown and say, and so all this stuff was connected to and basketball was heavily connected to black culture.

And then I was in in teams that were mainly black guys in the in so this is weird thing where I went from only black kid with only white with white people to then shifting over into a a more of a a black community and and, and but also connected to what I was good at, if that makes sense. And then eventually, I went to see the northern school country dance, and I was still playing basketball for, these Tigers, and then I had to kind of make a decision. And I did my 1st year, at Norman's School of Comedy Dance, and I completely fell in love with it. And I went from the bottom of the class at school to the top of the class when I was 15, and then I was just like and then my confidence just grew and grew and grew and grew, and I was there 5 years in ballet and contemporary. And and then then then yeah.

Rest is history, really. And then I ended up going to a TVA theater in the first job. Just just on the the dyslexia thing a little bit, just, in terms of working in theater now. And, obviously, dyslexia does doesn't go away. It's not, this this condition that just disappears.

So would you say now that you feel that the industry has changed to look at more access work for those that are neurodiverse or learning disabled to be part of the industry? Yes. Definitely. Oh my god. It's changed dramatically compared to when I was younger, and and I'm seeing younger people now who are coming into the industry, and it's it's I I never saw people with yellow paper in when I started doing theater work.

I was the only one, and now I'm seeing more and more and more. So it's becoming much more recognized, and I think that people are knowing when they're dyslexic. It's so hard because dyslexic comes in many forms, so it's really hard for the industry, I guess, to support, and go, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's that's what we do when we do if someone is dyslexia, the big one is having more time does help a lot.

Ownership of of of having dyslexia as well, I think it's easier now. I think young people now can go, oh, yeah, neurodiverse or I you know, and they own it. Whereas before, it's very much like, there's still this thing. It's like, it's a real thing. You know?

Are you just a bit slow? Do you know what I mean? All those things were more kind of, underlying tone, I think, when I was I was convinced the industry. Whereas now, it's like, no. No.

You know, this is fact. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And I guess, like, such an amazing story of, like, how you I hate the word journey, but, you know, how you sort of Yes. Played your way. It's just incredible. But and maybe it provides some answer to my next question, but we could reel off your CV, but you've you've done so many amazing things and worked with so many people. You you come and work with Generation Arts, quite a lot when you can.

Yeah. And how come you still do that work? Because you you clearly don't need to. So why why do you? I I just got chills then when you said that because I yeah.

Everything I do what things that I do and, like, experience, I thought this like, a show that's all the other day where I can I watch a show that's, like, got loads of money pumped into it, all this stuff, all these famous people, blah blah blah, and I come out, oh god? I didn't feel anything. Ultimately, you can put all the stuff in the world, all the the the kind of fancy stuff. But if you don't feel anything, I'm like, well, what's the point? And I then watched the video, a music video, which was 3 minutes long, and I was nearly in tears.

And for me, it's about having an impact and actually feeling the truth of things. I wanna every time I come to Generation Arts, I feel the truth, And I think truth of people, truth of, of of, like, connection, and and and the truth of people wanting to learn and actually me passing on the knowledge and the reward of that is so great, to to people who really want it and need it. By I think that for me, it's about that communication and that kind of finding, the the the the the rawness and the truth and the the the kind of the emotion where you are feeling like you're getting changed in some way. Every time we watch a story or every time we give something to someone, whether there's information or we're receiving something, you're learning something about yourself every time that transition is happening. You're learning about yourself within this world, and you're learning about each other and how we're all we are connected as as humans.

And so that's, yeah, that's why I do it because I get I get so much fulfillment out of it. You sound like you always sound well, I I know you are a very grounded person, but you sound very grounded in this conversation. And, a lot of young people, sometimes when they first come to Generation Arts, they talk about they have an idea about their success or of kind of what it looks like and when they when they will have that moment where they feel, yes. You know, I have made it in inverted commas or what have you. What do you think about that?

You know, you've worked with Tom Cruise and Mhmm. What is there a moment where you go, yes. Okay. I don't need to worry anymore, or is it it doesn't sound like it. Never.

Never. Never. Ever. The thing is what you realize is that there is no destination. I know people always say that this you know, you see things on Instagram, destination.

I know people always say that this you know, you see things on Instagram say, it's no destination. It's a journey blah blah blah. But it kind of is true. It's kind of it's just a pitting it's just a a pit stop, and it's whether it's the pit stop that you take a moment to just go, just bring this up now because it's not nothing as you go all the way, like, nothing lasts forever. And it doesn't matter who you are, even when people are very successful, they it goes up and down.

And there's only very, very few people that actually sustain a career that continues going in the direction they wanted to go in. A lot of the time people hit the success or hit something, because if they they go, ah, like that moment you were saying, then maybe, oh my god. We did it. And then they go to do another thing, but they haven't got the same drive. They haven't got the same investment.

They they're kinda sitting back and then and then things start to go off. It's like, well, life goes on, and you still have to do you still have to live. You still have to pay the bills. You still have to eat. You still have to, like, for instance, I was very lucky, and I say that I was I was so lucky that I got to find the thing that I was good at in life.

And I I was good mover and a good artist and and I could express myself through through performance. Because I got through that very early, I found it early. It got I got to hit one of my targets, which which is to see the world and to play the biggest theaters in the world. I did that at age 20, 21. And then it was like, right.

So what now? I I do kind of want a family in when I get older, I want a family, but, no, I haven't set anything out for that. It was just this dream of doing this one thing. So then once I've done it, I was like, well, I live in London. I haven't got haven't got any community because I just came down here for this job.

So I've gotta build up community. I've gotta get friends. I've got to get a partner. Like, this all takes time. This is part of your life that you're living.

So, yeah, you've got your career, but you've got your life, and they have to coexist. And so you've got to figure out how this can be sustainable for a whole lifetime. So I would say to to anyone, you have your goal that you want in life, and you can head for that and you can work really hard for that. And it is great to have a goal, but it's also that isn't gonna be everything. That isn't gonna solve all your problems or, you know, you still have to work on yourself.

You still have to work on your mental health. You still have to work on your your body health. You know, all of those things have to be part of your life to just essentially, you wanna be happy. Essentially, we wanna we want to have these happy moments in our life. Putting it all onto even 1 or 2 things is really, really dangerous because if it doesn't go the way you want it, you become very, very bitter and sour.

He's got to be sustainable. You've got to have foundations. I had a conversation with Tom Cruise. Not forgot your name, but I had Tom I was like, I've got to ask him, like, a question in when I've been talking to him. And so, like, how do you sustain like, what?

He's in his sixties. So how do you sustain your career this level so long? And he's he said to me, you know, he's he he sees so many careers come and go, and he says he's always when he's in his job, he's always going, right. What am I going? What is the next thing to do?

What do I want to achieve next? And that's, you know, that's an option that is not saying that is the right thing to do. Everyone has their own way of working on what they wanna do, but it's just interesting When you look at these people who constantly work, you it's very easy to go, oh, it all comes to them because they're famous or they've done really successfully. Everything just comes to them. Yes.

They have more options. Yes. They then have more finances, all this kind of stuff. So they have an insane drive and want to whatever that is is connected to them deep down of what they want because it doesn't matter how much success you have. If you don't have that drive or you haven't found the thing that makes you tick, it's pointless.

You're you're just gonna go, oh, yeah. I just wanna I just wanna, you know, be known or have lots of money or, you know, whatever it is or work with that person. He's like, he's gotta have a deeper rooted thing because he won't survive the length of your lives if you haven't got something that's and that's why I that's why I say about truth because I feel like the truth in me connecting with people, that's gonna live my whole life because all of us wanna need to connect. And I think storytelling, connecting to people, connecting to yourself, learning about yourself, learning about other people, learning psychology of characters and people in the world, All of those things I use for my work, and so that I can whatever the I now do moon direction. What I do is I make it to make people feel rather than to them to just be impressed or, oh, that was lovely.

It's like, how can what you create make people gasp or hit them hard or it doesn't get better than that. Yeah. So it's just like you're talking about we we we've mentioned this. So it's kind of like you're talking about it's coming from a place of authenticity where you're completely in alignment, where what you're doing matches what you what you feel in your gut and in your in your body and in your soul and in your mind and everything. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And that makes the best work for everyone. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that is the I think there's no I think the thing is there's no ingredients that there's no, like, mathematical ingredients that goes, I do x, y, and zed. This will equal this. It's like we you there's a work like that or that person, you see some that you admire. You go, but you can learn from them, but you can't you can't replicate what they've done because they've done their own life. If you try and even go into that lane, you're coming out of the center of you and you lose your authenticity and actually you're not true to who you are, and no one wants to see you being something you're not because everyone can sniff it out.

Everyone see you can feel if someone's really real or not. If they're and that's what trap people are so attracted to who they wanna know who you are because you are you are different to everyone else. Yeah. I think that's really the most important thing to hold on to as as an artist. When you had your moment as an actor in in imaging, at the Globe with with Matthew Dunster and and with other generation arts actors, that had, like, worked with generation arts, what was that moment like for you?

Because did it feel like everything that you had sort of been working on becoming with having your Generation Arts Avenue, having your dance, having you having the fear, having you did it feel like that moment, everything sort of came together? It's funny you say that. That job was one of the defining moments in my career. It's such a unique moment because it's the first time to use light and sound Yeah. It's the last show on that.

And it was just the most incredible experience. It was just to to be able to, yeah, be part of that. And and the the young audiences were just it was electric. It was absolutely incredible. I I And for those that that, that are listening and might not have seen the show, it was honestly the best piece of Shakespeare that I've ever seen in my whole life.

Like, I remember just I remember I was at drama school at the time as well. Yeah. So I remember, like, going back to drama school and just telling everyone. I was like, they were wearing, like, they were wearing a, like, I need to send that light. Isn't that Yeah.

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. They were scatter and stormy. Stormy and, like, shouting at the top of my lungs.

Yeah. Yeah. Shouting at the top of my lungs. So, like, they jealous of not being on top of my lungs. Yeah.

Yeah. Shouting at the top of my lungs. So, like, they I've never been jealous of not being on stage. Like, that was the memory of my whole career. I've never not been I was jealous.

I was at how, what? My best, my best mate, was an actor. He was like, I should have been that show. Why was I not in the show. I think it was one of those ones.

And even the jig, like the jig became famous, like, like, it was just, it was like a concert because we're outside. It was, like, being at a festival. It was just yeah. It was the energy of coming off that stage. It was, yeah, it was brilliant.

Yeah. One of my favorite favorite highlights of, like like, being part of the industry, like, that moment was, like, to see so many people of color on stage and to not be pandering, I think, to what we expect Shakespeare to look like or what we expect, do you know what I mean, classical spaces to look like and to have the audience reflect the people that were on stage as well was just, like, you know, I've had that moment and, 4 black boys, the same one. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We have a guest coming on who's from that as well, and it's that those two moments really changed my my view of theater and, like Yeah. Where where we can go with it. Yeah. It's the same with, Black Boys. Like, when I watched The Bat, again, I had that moment where I was like, I'm in the West End watching this.

I had to kind of take take a moment of going, I've never seen anything like this in the West End. Like, this is crazy. Again, it is true it's that truth. What I'll come back to where it hits hard, and you're like, no. That that that's it's some truth here.

And going deep, and that's what's affecting me. So it must be affecting all these other people who are watching as well. Thank you so much. I think I have to wrap up because of your timings. It's been so great, and it's been so rich.

Thank you so much, Ira. Honestly, always a pleasure. Yeah. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure.

And, yeah, when you guys when you're saying our pizza, yeah, of course. Definitely. You. Alright. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day with your car in the air. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Take care. Each one can teach 1, so keep acting strong. Subscribe, spread the word, and turn on your notifications. The lineup of guests have all tested their resilience, so come see what you can learn.

Thank Thank you for listening, and see you next time. Bye.