Chetna Pandya: Overcoming barriers into the arts, starring in Heartstopper, and building creative resilience

Chetna Pandya is an Actor, Director, Producer and Creative advocate, most recently known to many for her role as Coach Singh in Heartstopper (Netflix) and for her extensive acting career in TV shows such as The Trouble with Maggie Cole, This Way Up, Feel Good and Black Mirror. 

She has worked nationally and internationally across stage, television, film & radio performing with Complicité, Royal Shakespeare Company, Royal Court Theatre and BBC Radio Drama to name a few.

In this conversation Chetna passionately advocates for access to the arts, sharing insights into her own experiences growing up, and how meaningful socio-economic diversity and inclusion can affect change.

Chetna discusses how she has found the resilience to overcome barriers in her 22-year career in a changing industry, and shares her personal mindset for how to remain true to oneself as a professional artist.

Hosts & Guests:
Ali Godfrey (Host)
Unique Spencer (Host)
Chetna Pandya (Guest)

Email: actingstrong@generationarts.org.uk
www.actingstrong.com

Social Media:
@ActingStrong
Instagram: @GEN_ARTS
Facebook & X: @GenerationArts

Produced & Edited by: Ali Godfrey

Acting Strong is brought to you by Generation Arts and sponsored by the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama
www.generationarts.org.uk
www.cssd.ac.uk

Transcript

Hello, everyone. You are listening to Acting Strong. It's a podcast that helps explore resilience for stage ready, mind ready artists. It's brought to you by Generation Arts, and it's sponsored by Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. We are your hosts.

I'm Unique, a professional actor. And I'm Ali, founder of Generation Arts. In this episode, we're chatting to heart stopper actor Chetna Pandya about her career in TV, film, theater, and radio, and how she is driven by a passion for access to the arts. Let's get started. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Oh my god. Look at your faces!

Hi. My fave teacher. Yay. Yay. That's what I wanted to hear, Unique.

That's what I wanted to hear. Now we're in motion. And one of my favorite actors as well, so let's not forget that. Cute. Right.

Cringe, babe. Cringe. So how's life? What have you been up to? Life is good, man.

Life is good. What have I been up to? Series 3 of Heartstopper is out later this year. I have been remapping the blueprint of my creativity. That's what I have been doing.

I think as a post COVID response, to the way that the arts are today, we all need to be doing that. We all need to be looking at the healthiest way for us to be able to access our own inner creativity. So that, I think, can look different for all of us but, certainly, from my perspective, as a solo parent, working in a post COVID era, I have come to terms with the fact that I am the building. I do not need a building. I do not need a building because I am very much the building.

So, how I, create the architecture of my building is very much up to me and I think that the flow of creativity is constantly in motion, right? So if you see your creativity as a musical manual script and you've got all these aspects of creativity and say they're notes on the page, How you play your music, darling, is very much up to you. I think the way that I access my audience has very much changed. Where many years ago, I might have gone in and out of buildings to work with people, even how I work as an actor. I used to do a lot of theater.

I don't really anymore. The avenues in which I explore my creativity has changed and I think this week might look different from next week. I think you have to sort of be in this responsive place, with what's going on in your life and I think that that's where buildings have broken down and we're really seeing how structures in our society and how the arts is is absolutely breaking down right now. They they are crumbling as we speak, and so we don't need to be crumbling with them. Right?

We're out there shining, being the building, reforming the floors of our building and deciding, how we express that. So I think that that exploration with online content and, the way that we can access our audience now as creatives is a really interesting evolution of our industry. Say, we were taking acting, for example, you kind of build your relationship with an audience when you're in the theatrical space, when you were in the sacred space, then theater became unaffordable and my people didn't go to the theater anymore. I mean, even if they did, did they really? And the the access to theater now has changed.

So we've got all these different schemes out there, you know, making theater tickets cheaper for young people. But we are in an industry right now, and we are in a societal place where money is deprived across the board. Right? Post COVID, you can be in your thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, or in your twenties, and money is a challenge right now. So how you access sacred space has changed.

So the evolution of accessing things online, accessing things via the TV, via streaming networks, I think we're in a really interesting creative place, societally, because now we have the opportunity to create relationships directly with audience, and that comes with power. Yeah. It's it's really interesting what you're saying. And on the one hand, there's you yourself, and you've been working for, what, kind of 20 years or something now? And Yeah.

Yeah. 22 years, 24 years, something like that. So you're so, you know, as we as we get older and, like, your your life has changed, your what works for you has changed. Like you said, you're a solo mum, so I guess that's really impacted on you doing things like theater, which is not a very kind of sociable hours, let's say. It's also quite interesting because it kind of does chime with what young people are are saying and doing.

So a lot of the young people we have coming to us now, that it's a different kind of pathway Ally, is that Ali, is that what I realized in my 22, 24 years, was that the buildings that I was going into were broken. The systems were broken. And me being in those buildings was facilitating that abuse. Right? And I had to, you know, really take responsibility as an artist as to where I put my wisdom.

And I've worked for the majority of the drama schools out there. I've worked across the board. You know, I was working with people who were seeking access to the creative arts professionally and those in need of the creative arts as a modality to heal their communities, right? So the span of which of where my work went was really wide, and that was what was really unique about me, I think, as an artist was that the work was the work. Whether I'm in a top drama school that you've paid 27 and a half grand for or whether you're in a council estate, the work I'm delivering is exactly the same.

But I am the building. So when I walk into that space, we are creating a sacred space, and it was my responsibility to make sure that was safe because that set that space there becomes a vulnerable space when you are sharing your story or your points of creativity. And I think sometimes an individual's story can get in the way of their creative work. So when you're in the sacred space, that's what you're working on. So does it really make a difference?

I mean, I might change the way that I deliver it. I might change some aspects of it, but really we're working on co creativity and collaboration. And that should be across the board wherever we are as artists. Yeah. And can you talk a bit about when you say, just for for people listening, when you say about the system was failing, I think are you are you kind of thinking about theater in particular, kind of mainstream theater?

Or Whether you're talking about theater or you're talking about drama school, we go back to the same question. We go back to money. So if we're looking at the structures of a space, you've got the people who are working within the space, then you've got the people who are facilitating those people being in that space, and then you start talking to money. And who you shake hands with, like, you you know, when it comes to shaking hands with money and when you start talking the language of money, that's when you really get to see what a building is about. What makes the building tick.

Right. Yeah. So whether you are walking into a theatrical space as an audience member or as an artist, you can see and feel and hear and experience how that money is resonating and being distributed effectively or ineffectively within the building because you will either have a high vibrational co collaborative space or you've got crabs in a bucket. You hear me? Like, we got a lot of crabs in bucket behavior going on out there, and that's an issue for our industry, and it's an issue for our people.

Yeah? And what do you think that needs to change? What would you do if you could, like, wave a magic wand and change the whole thing yourself? Be the building, ain't it? There ain't no magic wand.

You be the building. You work in integrity and in alignment with who and what you are. You see something that's not right. It is your responsibility to speak up and deal with that. Is that gonna make you a difficult artist?

No. No. It's not gonna make you a difficult artist. But the way that you communicate those messages and making sure that they are in alignment for the better good of absolutely everybody, that there takes training. Yeah.

You might be a small company in a big building. So say for example, I worked for some really big people, big buildings out there. I had real issues with a lot of the big buildings that I worked for, but one in particular really just grated me when I watched their movements. Yeah? They got money.

They had lots of different creative structures within one building. And when they were looking to develop their audience, because really they were in an area where they should have a diverse and eclectic audience and they weren't reaching all of that audience. So they brought in people like me, to go and do the work, and really be a kind of it's like a magnet, isn't it? It's like you're asked to go into a building and it's like the building is saying, oh my god, everybody. Look who we are.

Come. And actually, you're the magnet. Right? But You're the shop window kind of thing. They thought that organizing, like, pizza and, like, you know, like it was like when they're working with young people, they wanna put all these, like, incentive things in.

We got a whole full spread for you. We're gonna put on lunch. We'll give you peep like my people can't eat. Like my people can't eat. We're not after your foods.

We can feed ourselves, thank you very much. We're here for high quality engagement. What are you doing about that? And this person who I was working with I was working with someone in the room as well. It was interesting when you work with people and you see how they work with structures because then you kinda go in alignment with you no more by, it's one of them ones.

I will cut off quick when I see that kind of movement. But seeing how this building was using me and disrespecting my people to think that food was gonna bring them in rather than making that space sacred for them, making sure that discipline was in place when it comes to time, the quality of the time that we have in the room, the access to resources that we need because they're in the building, so bring them to the room. The quality of people who are in the room creating that work, that's where I wanna see you supporting this structure. And when I can't see you doing that and you think a bit of pizza is gonna be enough to keep me in the building with you, Bye. Bye bye now.

Bye bye. No. Thank you. So that's where when I saw many of these types of things happening across the board, whether it be in theaters, whether it be in drama schools, whether it was in creative buildings that were looking to develop audiences, whether it was when I was a board member. It's interesting how money talks.

Right? Yeah. It really reminds me of I I really I really get that, and I I felt, like, tingly when you were talking because it just reminded me of years ago when I was a freelancer, and I was working for a big theater. And they had and they're a very big theater with amazing resources, and they had a young people's, thing that I was working on. And, you know, they're in this incredible place, but they always get the the worst room.

You know? Oh, no. You can't have the studio because the main the main actors are using it. And, well, why why are they not at the center of this Well, you see that in theater performance spaces as well, don't you? But if you were to look at the most diverse work, tends to be in the studio spaces, doesn't it?

Yes. Is it is it in the main house? And so I think as artists ourselves, we have to make choices. We have to be sovereign. We have to be the building.

You have to be in alignment with your own integrity. And, you know, you can be a dickhead by association. Exactly. It's all about integrity. Yeah.

Absolutely. I think if I go back to when I first ever met you, Chetna, and and we were at Generation Arts and you was teaching me and, you know, I remember the first ever thing that you told me, and it was one of the first ever things I learned in this industry. And you was like, there's a game to be played or you can play your own. Yeah. And I remember being like, what does that mean?

Because I I you know, when you first come into this industry and everyone will experience it, like, you're green. Like, you're like, wow, man. I'm gonna be an actor. I'm there. I'm speaking to people I've checked in who I've watched on TV.

Do you know what I mean? And then next minute, they're they're giving me advice. And so you're really green, and you're really happy, and you you don't understand the business. You don't understand all of the politics that go on. And I think that one thing you taught me is that you have to have integrity.

You have to have that. That has to be your ultimate foundation before you enter any building, before you become, you know, a product of any drama school, before you become a a do you know what I mean? A Disney star or whatever it is that you wanna achieve, that you have that integrity. And so if we go back to, like, where it all started for you, because obviously, integrity has been your core. How did you first get in into the industry?

Like, what was your first sort of steps in? Boy, how did I first get into the industry? Access was always a real problem for me. Right? I don't think I look like where I come from is the thing unique.

As a kid, my first access to theater, was to go on a school trip. And I remember it was like I think it was I think it might have even been a pantomime. I remember because I'd never been in a theater before, I remember how it completely opened up a world for me because everyone in the room was participating in something. Do you know what I mean? Like, there was real it was real magic.

Yeah. It's real magic in the space because it becomes a completely collaborative experience. As the audience members, you choose to participate in what you are receiving. And as performers, you have to listen to your audience in order to make sure you're creating the movement that needs to take place in them. And in that exchange, a sacred space is created.

And I remember being literally primary school age and just being like, wow. So you can go into a space, and you can heal and change people. Like, you can change the way they think, who they are when they walk out, like, all by just, like, choosing to be in that space. Right? Like, that was really nuts for me as a kind of physiological experience.

Right? Like and I think creative arts is definitely something that has to be experienced, which is why arts is so integral for all of us across the board. Once you experience it, you can feel what the potential is for you, and then you can find avenues that resonate with you to explore. But was the arts accessible to me? No.

Did I have money to go to drama school? No. Did I even know what drama school was? No. My parents didn't have that.

Like, they don't have any artistic background. Do I have any creative people in my family in that way? No. They work. Like, they work, you know, every hour God sends, and it was always that work mentality that they taught me.

On point, man. They're on it with that one. But even that is questionable, I think, nowadays, as to, you know, yeah, you can work hard. Can it get you anywhere? I think it's all about where you put the work.

Right? I think rest is really important. I I remember when I was doing, I had mentioned drama school and I was like, what is this magical place you called School of Drama? Like, what's a drama school? What do you mean there's an actual building where you can train to be an actor?

So I just like, you know, just called them up and be like, look. I'm, like, 14, 15. Can I do work experience? And as a thank you for the drama school help that I did that week, obviously, I put in the work. I was there in the library putting all the books in the right place, you know, like, work mentality ain't a problem for me.

They gave me a thank you and their gift for me was a term's worth of their Saturday classes at their drama school. My god. A free time's worth. So then, all of a sudden, on a side, I had to convince my parents, long time, you know, to be able to get there. But all of a sudden to be in a space where other people were enthusiastic.

Oh my god. I wasn't an alien anymore. This was an actual real thing and, like, people were into it. They were all talking about people I didn't know. Yeah?

Like, who is this stoner slash like, what are you talking to? What is this Brecht? I don't know. I've never read Shakespeare. I did it.

I'm doing it at school, but I don't know what you're talking about. Literally, everything was alien to me. And that was really overwhelming because I did not belong. I was not of. I was not privileged in a way where this was just available to these people, like, you know, and they were supported in that space.

Whereas for me, everything was absolutely new all the time. At the end of that day, I would go home to something and a world that was very, very different. So by the time I was finishing school, I had applied for, a BTEC in performing arts. That was it. And but my family were moving out of the area that they were in and going to, back to West London.

So I was in North London. We were going back to West London. So I got on a bus for 2 and a half hours every day, and I went to that college because I was like, no. I've started this, and these are the people who I'm doing it with. If it takes me 2 and a half hours to reach, I've gone reach is what I'm gonna do.

I I I'm not I'm not dropping this, but I'll tell you where the real problem was was accessing drama schools. So, when I first auditioned, I got in. They wanted 27 and a half grand. I ain't got that kind of money. And so I deferred my place.

I couldn't take it up. I worked for a year. I was working in the West End, and I did a part time course. And that part time course, I was with people who were in this magical place where their creativity and reaching their creativity was everything. Realistically, I still couldn't afford to go to drama school.

So, although I'd then auditioned to do the 3 year, musical theater and, they asked me to audition for the acting. And even then, money was a problem. Right? Luckily, at the time, there was something called the Dance and Drama Awards, and that was the 1st year that they were delivering them out. And so, I was lucky to, get onto that.

And but when I was at drama school, my mom lived in temporary accommodation council house, temporary. I say she'd been there, like, between 5 8 years. She had cancer. She had breast cancer that she was recovering from, mold growing up the walls. You know, like, when I was at drama school, my living experience was really different from the people who was I was at drama school with.

Yeah? And they couldn't see or understand what I was going through. So in some senses, I sort of learned to separate my identities. I sort of learned to kind of conceal what I was really going through versus who I needed to be to turn up to be in the space and be present. And but I had to work to earn money because my family didn't have the money.

I did have to go home and be one of the main carers of the people in my family. My youngest brother, I brought him up since he was a baby. You know, he was still living with my mom at the time. I was his mother. So I was parenting before I was a parent whilst also parenting my parents because she was not well, and in really unstable accommodation.

So I would have to constantly be in communication with counsel with disability. So it was working to make sure that my mom had access to all of those things. And the maturity level of the people that you're working with, they weren't dealing with what I was dealing with at home. Right? Like so, anyway, I got to a point, I think it was in my second I think it was in my second year where these side jobs that I was doing was just knackering me out.

I didn't have energy for it. So I was, like, I really want to share what I'm learning and this feeling of it wasn't an imposter. It this feeling of frustration and anger, This anger that was inside me of this privilege that was everywhere that I looked and but why wasn't it accessible to all my people? And so I thought I'm gonna get a Saturday job teaching. I'm gonna go straight to the people.

So, basically, what I did is I would take the work that I would learn and I would remap it and I would go and deliver it on my side jobs. It was a really interesting time for me to be able to explore that part of me. And it was it was a safe enough space to be able to explore how I was working as a facilitator, what was useful information, how to access audience, how to make the work provocative and evocative in a short space of time and to deliver a high quality execution of the work whilst also having fun. And it don't need to take you you don't need to be training to be an actor to do it. Right?

And so that say space became the most important. So I was training as an actor and I was training and developing myself, in that kind of space as well. And those two things really kicked off for me and I would say when I graduated from drama school, both continued to work, and continued to be in development for me. So I gained lots of titles along the way. I got to a point where I was shaking hands with money being a board member, but really, it was always about access and engagement and my responsibility as an artist was always to make sure that the arts are accessible and how I choose to do that will constantly be changing in order to keep that up to date.

And but I don't agree with the fact that the arts is only for the privileged. I think that, like, all of our guests that we're we're bringing on to the podcast have the same sort of through line of being, like, having a a difficult or maybe not the sort of linear step into the industry and and finding that resilience to just keep going to even be part of it. And then the next step of them finding, like, so how do I help somebody who would have been in my position and give that back to them? And I think, like, everyone who's come on to the podcast or we've invited onto the podcast all says the same thing. I was just gonna say, you know, what really gets me?

I think this is where the sort of development, the evolution of the kind of conversations we're having in the industry nowadays is intersectionality is real. Right? So if we're looking at diversity, say, from a racial perspective, we're looking at say, if I use myself as an example, my background, I'm East African Asian, I'm East African Indian. There are poor people and there are rich people. There's a wide range.

It's the same you know, like, the kind of basic level of conversation that people would bring to me, I think, when I sort of entered into the industry, it's like, oh, are you 2nd generation? And I was like, what the hell does 2nd generation mean? I was in this weird bracket is But that level of understanding of how racism is littered throughout our industry is really kind of it's there for me to see in all sorts of ways. And so I think this sort of paintbrush that the industry wanted to have when it came to diversity is, oh, shit. If we get more black people, if we get more Asian people, then then but the thing is is we're all different people.

We have intersectional societies within our societies. Back in the day, we used to have you had your theaters and then you had, theater companies. And the way that structural money went into these systems is let's have a black theater company. Let's have an Asian theater company. Did Did it successfully work?

No. And what audience do they have? Right. Right. The way that we look at diversity is a problem in itself.

We live in an intersectional society. Within all of that diversity spectrum, there are gonna be all of these different things that exist. So co collaboration, co creativity, remaining in conversation so that we can allow that fluidity of evolution. We can stay on top of that. That's where the work is.

Right? What made me unique as a board member was the fact that I'd worked the system of the building. I was the building. So when they when money people are talking about something and they ain't got a goddamn clue what's happening in the room, who do they need to be in conversation with? We need to look at how a building is in communication with itself.

Right? So if we're looking at art structures, then they would use consultants from outside the building to go in the building. I've done that too. Still a problem, isn't it? Like, what the the problem is is the fact that people can pay for those things.

Do they actually want to do the work? It is our jobs. If we go into a building, it is our job to make sure that that building is in alignment for all the people it serves. So whether that be for yourself as an artist or it be for a building that you are a part of in any kind of way, that's the same if you're working with TV. Right?

That's not to say that the bad boy here is theater. Yeah. Them issues exist in TV and film. Absolutely, they do. Do they exist in radio?

Yes. Absolutely, they do. They exist in all parts of the industry. We are at the point where we are in a creative war right now with, is that a harsh thing to say? I don't think it is a harsh thing to say because I think, as artists, we're really fighting right now, aren't we?

I think all of us in this conversation are probably experiencing that in different ways but I think it takes us back to the sort of beginning of where we started. Right? Now where we are creatively now is that we have got celebrities, we have got actors, and we have got artists. Who you gonna be? Who you gonna be?

That's the rule. That's the rule. That's the rule. The privilege is is that anyone can walk into this industry right now and you can be a celebrity. Does that make you an artist?

No. No. You'd be a fool. I have plenty of people that I can see online and I'm like, boy. You can have the numbers.

Have you got the integrity? Are you an artist? Then let's look at the difference between an an actor and an artist. An artist makes work. An actor is working on, you know, on someone's work.

You can bring all of your artistry to that and you can work collaboratively, but essentially you have to align all of that work for the cocreative message that the work is sending out. Now there are some actors that got issues with that, and you can always tell because they're shit actors in the room. And you can generally tell by their performance because when you watch them, it will make you vexed. Why will it make you vexed? Because they are not in alignment with the actual story that's being told.

So then you're so busy watching them, you're like, bruv, move out the way. I just want the story. I want the point of healing. I want what I turned up for. I wanna be touched, moved, and inspired.

I don't wanna be watching you and your ego. Do you want to be a celebrity? Do you want to be an actor? Do you want to be an artist? What when you look back at your younger self going out into into work, into the industry, and navigate navigating that, you know, needs must, and you you needed to work.

So you made certain choices at that time. There's a kind of tension there between what would you advise a young person now, how can they be authentic as artists but still survive and and and make their way? Yeah. There is, isn't there? Because, you need money to eat.

Money is really important, isn't it? Like, there's no you can't be creative when you're hungry. I'll think straight. Right. You're gonna need money to feed yourself.

You need to pay your bills. You want high vibrational coin to be coming in. Yeah? Money is energy, isn't it? And so you can go and do a job that makes you feel like shit, that drains your energy and doesn't make you feel good.

But when that coin goes into your bank account, all it's gonna do is amplify the same resonance at which it came in with, this miserable money, isn't it? Right? This is where you need to really use your ingenuity, and really be mindful of your energy resources so that you can divvy them out responsibly, rather than thinking you just need to put them all in one pot in order to then be successful in the other pot. That's not true. You know what I mean?

So let that be the kind of open evolution. Sometimes you might try something, it doesn't work out, you move on, you take the wisdom from it and it goes into something else but there's no point earning that kind of money if it's gonna make you miserable and kill your creativity. That's gonna be just as toxic as putting yourself in a toxic environment. So keep your building safe. I think that's a perfect note to end on.

Keep your building safe. And I think, of course, all young people will have their own journeys and this is like your journey over 20 years and realizing like what's the best sort of mode of transport to get there and everything. If you were talking to your younger self and you was gonna give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be? Always work in integrity and in alignment with who and what you are. And when something doesn't feel right, you move on.

You take the wisdom and you move on, but you put the energy into that remapping and redesigning so that you are always working from that point of you being your best self. Collaboration is the key. Be humble. Don't let ego get in the way. Don't separate your identities.

Bring them in alignment with who and what you are. And it's very important for you to shine your light and you came to live out loud. So however you choose to do that, make sure that you have come to live out loud. Love it. Amazing.

Thank you so much, Chetna. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Brilliant. And I didn't even ask you about Heartstopper.

I know. And I was like, Ali was waiting. You're doing the whole I was like, I'm gonna watch it this weekend. I love it. Yeah.

Oh, do you? I I know. Fan girl. Yeah. Are you?

What what what an incredible piece of work. That there is a really interesting embodiment of all my worlds coming together. That's amazing. Right? Isn't it?

That's incredible. It's like 20 something years of teaching, and you kind of go, and here I am playing a role. Yeah. For sure. I think I always think that about my career as well.

Like, I feel like there's things that I do in terms of engaging with, like, communities or or giving back or whatever it is. And then for some reason, afterwards, the project that comes along to complement, like, what I've just been doing is crazy. Like, because even Top Boy at the time, I was working I was working just before that, I was working in, like, Pembry Estate in Hackney. And obviously, I was born in Hackney. Do you know what I mean?

And Top Boy is based on the guys that I dated from Hack So it was like all of this thing just there. And then I was like, alright. Cool. And then I did the show, and then obviously, you still was working back in Hackney and the kids were gassed because they were like, oh, our teacher was on it. I've been going into schools and, like, little kids are asking me for autographs and stuff.

And, you know, you're just like, amazing. It's like a spiritual magnet, isn't it? That's the thing with being an artist and being, you know, using this art form as a as a modality, that exchange that you were just talking about of, you know, you're working in the space, then you go do something like Top Boy, and then you go back into that space and everyone's all gassed up, and you go, that is the access. Mhmm. That there, the shining of the lights, you know, that being the beacon of the work.

That's why it's important that people like us share the work and share ourselves as creative influences. That that's why it works. It's interesting when it's like that you know, when you go into being an actor, you you don't you don't always choose to be a celebrity. We right. But Yeah.

The the power of influence and, you know, that kind of bringing together of alignment of building that I was talking about earlier, it is out there. The alignment is out there. The work will magnetize to you if you are in alignment with yourself and then what you choose to do with that power of influence is very much up to you. Aw. Thank you.

That was good. Thank you, Chetna. Thank you so much. Take care. Stay in touch.

Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Each one can teach one, so keep acting strong. Subscribe, spread the word, and turn on your notifications. The lineup of guests have all tested their resilience, so come see what you can learn. Thank you for listening, and see you next time. Bye.