Realities of Surviving Widowhood

When your world ends in an instant, how do you begin again?

Emily sits down with fellow widow Leslie Harter-Berg to talk about sudden loss, love after loss, and building a life that honors the past while embracing the present. 

Leslie shares the heart-wrenching story of losing her husband Ryan unexpectedly, the surreal experience of becoming a single mom overnight, and the bittersweet beauty of raising her boys with Ryan’s memory woven into their lives.  

Together, Emily and Leslie explore the complexities of widowhood—jealousy toward other widows’ journeys, the awkwardness of dating again, navigating anniversaries, and the healing power of humor, community, and storytelling. 

Listen For:

5:05 The Day Everything Changed in Palm Springs

7:21 Wearing the Widow Label for the First Time

12:44 Sudden vs. Terminal Loss: The Unexpected Emotions

20:24 Dating Again: From Fantasy to Reality

25:06 Ryan’s Birthday Tradition: A Holiday of His Favorite Things

30:35 Love After Loss Begins

37:12 Balancing Two Loves in One Heart

CONNECT WITH GUEST: LESLIE HARTER-BERG

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CONTACT EMILY:

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Transcript

Emily Cave Boit (00:01):

Hi everyone. Welcome back to episode 20 of You Are More with Emily Cave Boit. I am so excited to have one of my widow sisters on the episode today for those that follow widowhood or us widows on social media. She is the creator of Vids for Wids, which is just an amazing Instagram account that describes Widowhood to a t. So excited to have Leslie on talk about her journey from widowhood to Finding love again and now actually releasing her new book soon. So welcome Leslie to the show. I am so excited to have you on in our little, we didn't even plan this. We're just both in

Leslie Harter-Berg (00:55):

Mourning Eternal Morning.

Emily Cave Boit (00:57):

Okay, black, such a Widow. Honestly, I feel like

Leslie Harter-Berg (01:02):

Such a cliche.

Emily Cave Boit (01:04):

I do feel like I wear a lot of black though. I don't know if that's,

Leslie Harter-Berg (01:08):

It's not our fault that black also happens to be flattering. Okay. It's not our fault. It doesn't mean that we're sad that day. Okay. Exactly.

Emily Cave Boit (01:16):

I feel like I'm drawn to black. I wonder why. But speaking about why, I remember the first time I came across your story, one of me and Colby's Hillsong Boston friends sent me your post, and unfortunately, we're both a part of this widow sisterhood club that no one wants to be in. But at the same time, once you're in it, it's super tight knit and you're so grateful for each other. And I remember reading it was shortly after Ryan's one year mark because Ryan passed away one year before Colby, and I remember reading it and being like, okay, I didn't even know you, but I'm like, if she can get through this, if she can get to the one year mark, I can too. And I think that's the power of social media and being authentic and sharing journeys. But take us back to how you met Ryan, your whole story and kind of what led up to that one year mark post.

Leslie Harter-Berg (02:23):

Yeah, of course. Do you ever feel like when you're about to tell your story again, you're kind of afraid that, well, I seem like a sociopath if I'm not bawling my eyes out

(02:32):

Because

(02:33):

I've told it so many times. If I don't cry doesn't mean I'm not very sad. But yeah, I met Ryan at work actually. We were both quirky creatives. We worked at a children's media company and we were actually the onscreen talent. We had to dress up as elves and mad scientist. It was a really weird job, but we basically met at work, love it. And we were both applying for the same job. It was like a full-time job, but they loved us both. They were like, you're perfect for the job, and we only can pay for one full-time job, so we're going to split the job in two. So I met him on a training day and we both got less pay, but we're like, we shared one full-time job and then soon we shared an entire life. So pretty crazy. We ended up getting together a couple years later after I kind of rejected him a few times. That's a long complicated story. But then we had this bond of being coworkers first and being this creative force, and it just sort of happened where it was like Ryan and Leslie does this. Ryan and Leslie will do that. We became a one,

(03:49):

Ryan and Leslie before we ever got married. And then when we got married, we decided to start our own production company together, making commercial videos. And our lives were very much together, everything together. We ran our company together. We also were the kids church pastors at our church together. So it was,

Emily Cave Boit (04:13):

I wish you were my church pastor, kids', church pastor growing up. I would be like, you are so cool.

Leslie Harter-Berg (04:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I had some great impressions of Moses. I often had a beard on. We were weird, we got weird together. But what was strange is that I can't think of many parts of my life except for maybe the occasional girls night that was separate from Ryan. And so we went on vacation. Basically it was spring break and we were going to take all the kids with my sister's family to Disneyland for three full days and do the full Disney thing and stay in the park. And then we were going to go to Palm Springs after to get the vacation from the vacation and actually relaxed by the

Emily Cave Boit (05:02):

Pool. As a parent, you're like aftermath, vacation,

Leslie Harter-Berg (05:05):

Not super relaxing. Anyway, so we're by the pool, the pool, and we're finally relaxing rethought to Palm Springs. I put my baby Rory down for a nap. We had two kids at the time, so it was three and a half. Our oldest son and Rory was one and a half, well, he was like 14 months, and we put him down for a nap. I'm sitting by the pool, I'm reading, I think I was actually reading the Bible and journaling about my life. And then Ryan comes out and says, Leslie, something's wrong. And from that moment on, things happen very quickly, but he basically had an aneurysm and a stroke, and he was only 34 years old. I mean, the way that I tell the fast version is that he dropped dead on vacation. It wasn't like that where he was gone by the pool. It was the er.

(06:07):

They came, but then by the time he was at the hospital, he was on life support and we were having to decide when to take him off because his body basically wasn't working. His brain no longer was functioning. And so we flew in a bunch of family and it was just the longest 48 hours of my life, which I know that experience, how time moves so strangely in those moments. But yeah, we went to Palm Springs together, and then I flew back to Vancouver, Washington as a widow and as a single mom to two kids. And it took a while for my brain to catch up with what happened. But yeah, worst day of my life, April, it was actually April 1st. It was April Fool's day 2019.

Emily Cave Boit (07:04):

You're like, this isn't a funny joke.

Leslie Harter-Berg (07:06):

Which was hard delivering news people because Ryan was a very funny guy. And so a lot of friends were like, no. So it was cool. So yeah, whenever I see April Fool's Day jokes now I'm like, oh,

Emily Cave Boit (07:21):

It's a trigger.

Leslie Harter-Berg (07:22):

Can we cancel that holiday?

Emily Cave Boit (07:24):

Yeah, cancel that holiday. Yeah. Kby got sick April 7th and then passed away April 11th. And I remember it being over Easter

(07:36):

And now just that April Fools or Easter just feels different now when something like that happens. But as you were talking, I feel like I could relate in some ways of the suddenness and just your whole life. It's so funny you think you play in your whole life. You guys had kids started your own company together, and then a flip second, everything changes and you never think it's going to be, you never think it's going to be you. And I think for me didn't even when you're talking about flying home as a widow, that word to me didn't even register. Even older people when they lose their spouse or anything, I knew when my grandfather passed away before my grandmother, I never clued in like, oh, my grandmother's a widow. You don't think of that. And then all of a sudden you're slapped with this label so quickly being like Ryan's widow or Colby's widow, and you're like, wait, what widow happened? So

Leslie Harter-Berg (08:45):

Yeah, I remember that feeling because actually my sister was there. She lives down in California and her friends drove down from LA to Palm Springs to take care of the kids while we were at the hospital navigating stuff. And she was a widow. Her husband died by suicide five years before. Ryan and I had just always known her around really good friends, and I was like, Jasmine, that was such a sad thing that happened to her, but I never thought of her as a widow. It was like the minute that Ryan died, I remember somebody saying, Jasmine is a young widow too. She's at the house. I was about to go talk to a young widow immediately,

(09:27):

And

(09:27):

I just remember being like, whoa, I, Jasmine and I are part of this club, and there's a word for it. I think I too, I never had thought about widowhood or the word widow, but when I first heard it, I grabbed onto it because I was like, there is a word for what happened to me, and it's a word that I get to hold for the rest of my life that what happened to me matters, and this love story that I have, this connection with Ryan, it's going to be part of my identity forever. And so I was pumped, I think when I pumped, but I was excited to have a word for it, so I feel like I latched onto it and I was like, yeah, I'm a widow and I want to talk to other widows. And yeah.

Emily Cave Boit (10:15):

Yeah, I completely agree. I think in the beginning I was in denial. I feel like I could write it, it's interesting, I could write it, but I couldn't say the actual word for a few weeks, maybe even a few months. And I knew it and I was like, you helped me. That's how I was connected to you or other young widows through social media. And you become a part of this community, as you said, and you do really latch onto, I literally remember laying in bed, just scrolling your Instagram, and this was, I mean, a year and a week after Ryan originally died. And I just remember feeling so validated, being like, I'm not crazy or I'm not, all these emotions that I feel that you feel, and probably, well, we do feel for the rest of our lives because yeah, widowhood isn't an easy journey by any means.

Leslie Harter-Berg (11:18):

And I also was, I mean, I was scrolling people within the next day. It's funny because social media gets a lot of slack, a lot of flack, and people have their criticisms, and I do too. But I honestly feel like it was such a blessing. Yes, that's a perfect word for it. I was holding onto it as a lifesaver when I was drowning, and I am so grateful for every widow that told their story on there. And I'm glad that when you came to my account that I wasn't married yet, because you have a hard time going on right away, going on other widow's accounts who had this

Emily Cave Boit (12:04):

New

Leslie Harter-Berg (12:04):

Life. And now I'm so aware of that when I post about my new life, like, oh, I know that. For me, I was like, I don't want to see that. I don't even want to see someone being happy again. I want to see a little That's sad forever.

Emily Cave Boit (12:17):

And weirdly, you, I mean, I hate to say it now, but I remember being judgy, being like, how could you? And now I'm like,

Leslie Harter-Berg (12:31):

I was like, I will never have hope. Okay, I'll never be happy. I'm going to be sad forever. And then I was like, oh, I, this is a little bit more complicated to live out, be sad

Emily Cave Boit (12:44):

For, seriously speaking about widowhood though, and I know you do have as well a community of widows that you kind of lean on. And it's interesting to me. Although, I mean for us, our stories are very similar, different aspects for sure. But it's interesting to me talking with sudden widows versus talking with terminal widows, and I've kind of talked about this a bit before. There is, I don't want to say pros and cons, but to each there kind of is. If we're being truthful and sudden, obviously we don't have those conversations, we're completely blindsided. But I also can't imagine watching my spouse be terminal for months or weeks on end and watching them suffer. So yeah, I go back and forth, but I do remember, I don't know about you, but I remember seeing terminal widows and I remember almost being jealous of them, if that makes sense.

Leslie Harter-Berg (13:52):

So jealous.

Emily Cave Boit (13:53):

Because I was like, you've got those conversations, you had those conversations, you knew, and now I feel so bad for that, but when you're in this immediate, you're feeling everything. So yeah, I was curious if you had felt the same or kind of go back and forth

Leslie Harter-Berg (14:13):

At the beginning I was so jealous of cancer. What else? And it was all about the conversation, just like you said, I was like, if I could have just had a minute with

(14:26):

Ryan,

(14:27):

30 seconds where he knew he was going to die and I could say something to him,

(14:35):

He

(14:36):

Could say something to me. We were in the middle of a fight. We were on a family vacation, we were on a budget. We were not super relaxed in Disneyland.

(14:45):

And I just wanted to be able to say, I'm sorry for what I said, and to past that kind of trivial fight and into the deep, this is how much you've meant to me and that moment. And I wanted him to say, I long to hear his thoughts for the boys as they grew for me with how I navigate. I just wanted, I don't know if his blessing on dating again and how to navigate this whole thing, just guessing what he might think. But then as I've gotten to know widows who are cancer widows, I do think it's a prolonged trauma where we had our two days, I don't know how many days, how long was Colby in the hospital?

(15:32):

Four.

(15:33):

Four, okay. So you have four days. I have two days of the hospital. And I'm like, wow, that feeling, what if that was stretched out for five years? I think they have a lot of trauma to unwrap from that. But I do know that there's, when someone dies after that, there's just sort of a couple months of relief before they get into the grief zone where I think when you're a sudden death widow, there is, there's no relief. Your brain is trying to catch up with what happened. It is more shock and confusion, but yeah, I don't think there's no winner.

Emily Cave Boit (16:14):

No, there's no winner in widowhood. There is not. Yeah, I think about that. But yeah, I feel better that you said that you were jealous of terminal widows too, because I was like, how dare you get a conversation with them? I know, and I remember being even jealous of people's spouses that died when they were 10 years out. We didn't even make our first wedding anniversary. And I remember being, screw you so angry at and I struggled being around older people. I was like, you've lived this whole life and Colby was 25. I think jealousy and anger are very much in the first little bit.

Leslie Harter-Berg (17:04):

I know my parents were celebrating their 40th anniversary at the time, I think, or somewhere around there, and I was just,

Emily Cave Boit (17:12):

I'm so happy for you.

Leslie Harter-Berg (17:14):

I'm so happy for you guys. It's my parents happy that they're both still alive, but at the time it must be nice. Must be nice. And I was a little bit angry or jealous of older widows, but now I also have relationship with older widows

(17:35):

And

(17:35):

I think they're dealing with a whole different sort of identity loss because it's such emerging and it's gone on for so long that it is so deep in who they are. They are a half of a hole. And I think the longer you are married, the harder that is. And so yeah, again, no winners. No winners.

Emily Cave Boit (17:56):

No winners at all. No winners.

Leslie Harter-Berg (18:00):

No one gets a trophy.

Emily Cave Boit (18:02):

Imagine

Leslie Harter-Berg (18:04):

I didn't actually make myself a trophy best in grieving, but it was for something else, for the book that I'm working on.

Emily Cave Boit (18:14):

What? Well, wasn't there, I thought it was you on it too. I thought we talked about this. There was people, there was a show that was reaching out to widows. Did you know

Leslie Harter-Berg (18:28):

That? I don't know. I don't think that was me. Wait, what was it?

Emily Cave Boit (18:30):

I swear they wanted to do a widow kind of version, I think of a dating show.

Leslie Harter-Berg (18:38):

Did they reach out to you, ed?

Emily Cave Boit (18:40):

Yeah. And I remember being like, well, that would be a big crap show of which death is worse. And yeah, I just remember being like, this is so weird.

Leslie Harter-Berg (18:55):

Would the guy be a widow with everybody?

Emily Cave Boit (18:57):

I don't know. I had one call in it, I shut it down pretty fast.

Leslie Harter-Berg (19:02):

I would watch this. I'm always,

Emily Cave Boit (19:04):

I don't think it came to fruition. I don't think it ended up happening, but

Leslie Harter-Berg (19:10):

I do think that there should be more. I know people are trying to get some dating platforms going for what us, but I remember at the time, I don't know about you. When I was thinking about dating again, I was like, I only want a widow, or I only want someone who shares this pain. And then we can just combine our sadness and be like, you're number two. I'm number two. And that's okay.

Emily Cave Boit (19:35):

Yes. But

Leslie Harter-Berg (19:36):

It didn't play out that way for me.

Emily Cave Boit (19:38):

Yes, I remember thinking that. Or I would go back and forth and be like, I want someone that was new Kolby so that they would respect him or understand this whole craziness of life or the type of person that he was. And then, I mean, Colin didn't really know too much about hockey before anything. You've gone to a few games, but totally different. But yeah, I remember in the beginning being like if this and having your criteria, and that just got thrown right out the window.

Leslie Harter-Berg (20:10):

Yeah, I wanted Juah from the holiday. I wanted a widower with two daughters and I come with my two cute little sons and we make a little pretty bitch. It didn't happen. Okay. I'm not Cameron Diaz. It didn't happen.

Emily Cave Boit (20:24):

It's interesting though. There is a lot of videos or movies on widowhood and I feel like especially in the last 2020 to now, it just blew up I think quite a

Leslie Harter-Berg (20:42):

Bit. They're everywhere. Okay. I remember before Ryan died, there was a big thing where people were upset because in every Disney movie there was only one parent because the other parent died. And then I remember after Ryan died, I was like, yes. I was so excited for my kids. Thank you. See, they don't have a mom, they don't have a dad. And then I was like, yes, more of that, please. But yeah, it's funny, you can time your watch by every Christmas movie pretty much within the first two minutes you find out that she's a widow or somebody died.

Emily Cave Boit (21:18):

It is so funny you say that. I didn't even think about that. So last week I was watching a movie, I think it's called Two Hearts, I don't know if you've seen it. Anyways, and I had it on, I put it on, there was two actors in it and I was like, oh, this should be a good movie. I wasn't really paying attention. Colin was upstairs and he comes down for the last 30 minutes. We're sitting on the couch together and ironically, this person, the way that they do the narrative, it's like two lives back and forth, so you don't really know what's going on. And I swear in the last 30 minutes, I just knew, I'm like, it's going this way. It's our, he's going to die. He's going to donate this. I knew and Colin's looking and he was like, how do you know? I was like, I've lived this. I know it. I can feel it in my gut. I can sense it's happening. You're just so in tune to, I feel like

Leslie Harter-Berg (22:10):

Yes, you can smell it. Yeah. My husband, Solomon is tired of my death radar. He's tired of all my death commentary and how much I tell him he's going to die, and he's like, I never thought about death so much in my life until I was with you. And I was like, sorry, going to die. I think

Emily Cave Boit (22:29):

Colin him to bond on that because I'm always like, what would you do if I die? Or it's like this question, he's like, why do you bring this up? I'm like, it could happen. I'm like, what do you mean? That's a stupid question. Why I,

Leslie Harter-Berg (22:47):

I'm always like, you're going to be glad that we talked about this.

Emily Cave Boit (22:51):

Yes,

Leslie Harter-Berg (22:52):

I was searching within the archives of my memories and everything for any conversation Ryan and I had about death, anything, because we didn't get those last words. I didn't get a letter or a video or all of that. So I was like, when did we talk about it? Now, Ryan had so much grief in his life. Both of his parents died too soon. I mean, his mom died when he was 19. His dad died when he was 25. And so we talked about death with that, with his grief. And one or two times, the only thing that we talked about widowhood was that his dad was widowed. And then he got remarried very shortly after and I was always like, how could he do that to your mom? Get remarried so fast.

(23:40):

And Ryan was not judgy about it at all. Ryan was like what he needed to do. I'm so glad that he did. And that's all I had. That is what I took to be like Ryan is giving a blessing to me to move forward to date again to love again. Because his dad was two months, three months maybe. And he was like, that's okay. I'm so glad my dad had somebody. I can't take care of him. My mom would be like, I'm not going to be with him, my mom. So that is all I had, and I just took it and I moved forward

Emily Cave Boit (24:10):

And

Leslie Harter-Berg (24:11):

I was like, thank you for my blessing.

Emily Cave Boit (24:12):

Yeah, it's so funny how there's so many conversations like that. I remember we were watching Grays before and I was asking questions, so I kind of knew what he wanted or cremated or very, so yeah,

(24:24):

It's

(24:24):

Funny how those things, like you look back and you're grasping for those conversations,

Leslie Harter-Berg (24:29):

But

Emily Cave Boit (24:29):

They end up helping you.

Leslie Harter-Berg (24:31):

I know. So that's why our dudes now are very lucky. Okay. They're getting all the conversations, they're going to get all the information that

Emily Cave Boit (24:39):

They're lucky for a lot of reasons. But that one

Leslie Harter-Berg (24:41):

Too, they're going to be good.

Emily Cave Boit (24:44):

Now, speaking of Ryan and the boys, I love that every birthday you have a list of Ryan's favorite things and you do those with the boys because obviously Rory and Whit were younger when he passed away so young. So I'm sure wit has some memories or

Leslie Harter-Berg (25:06):

Yeah, memory's complicated on memory. And then I'll talk about the birthday, but I remember wit was just such a fully formed little human. When Ryan died, he was talking a lot. He was three, but he and Ryan had a relationship and everybody was like, well, he is not going to remember. And I was like, no, no, no, we will remember. And people were saying that to me and that was really hard. I couldn't wrap my head around that. But now as he's grown up, they are, his memories are pretty small. It's a small list and a lot of it, who knows if it actually happened, we just go with it. And

(25:44):

I say, yes, that did absolutely happen because that's all he has of his dad, and I want him to have as much as possible. And on their birthday, on Ryan's birthday, we basically treat it like a holiday in our house. Ryan was a manchild. We met at this goofy children's media company. And the reason that he got hired there is because he was such a goofball and he loved all Legos. He loved arcades, he skateboarding, he was just a child. So it turns out that all of his favorite things are also any elementary kids' favorite things.

Emily Cave Boit (26:24):

You're like, perfect.

Leslie Harter-Berg (26:25):

Yeah, they get to get a day out of school and just do all fun stuff the entire day. And I decided that it's not always natural to always, I try to always be talking about Ryan and bringing him up, but I do think we need these moments where we really intentionally explain who this man is to them and explain how he's in them. Because even though they have a great dad now, Ryan will always be their dad.

(27:02):

And genetics are weird because they are becoming little Ryans. And it's really showing me nature versus nurture because my oldest son, it's like he will do things and I am so tripped up. And then my youngest son is a goofball like him. My oldest son has so many, it's crazy. So I just want them to know who this person is that's inside of them. And so it's just this big day where we write a crazy ambitious list of things that he loves and we get through it, wit has his little check list paper and throughout the day checking off all of Ryan's favorite things. And we also found, and this is my favorite part of what we do, we found this list that Ryan made. He was probably 12 or 13 in the box of stuff of things. It said things to do before death that he wrote. And it's a very much a kid list. I think it has 50 items on it, things that Ryan wanted to do before he died. So one of them was have kids and get married, check. We did that, but some of them are really funny things. So we decided we'll do one item off that list every year.

Emily Cave Boit (28:12):

I love that.

Leslie Harter-Berg (28:14):

Yeah. It was also, so one year it was dress up as a pirate in public. This year it was like go to an art museum and appreciate, it's just a very random list from a 14 year old's brain. And some of them are going to be really hard. And I'm a little bit worried, like diving stage, diving at a rock concert and bungee jumping. I will not be bungee jumping, but I said maybe

Emily Cave Boit (28:38):

Which one of your sons would bungee jump? I feel like Rory.

Leslie Harter-Berg (28:41):

Yeah. Yeah. Rory is bungee jumping every day of his life. The kid is trying to hurt himself. I'm terrified. I'm like, let's do that one when you guys are older than 18. I will not be there for

Emily Cave Boit (28:55):

That. I'll be on the ground cheering you on

Leslie Harter-Berg (28:57):

Praying, like crying.

Emily Cave Boit (28:59):

Yeah.

Leslie Harter-Berg (29:00):

But yeah, I want to try. I love checking off that part of the list every year. But yeah, it's basically a big holiday and we have fun.

Emily Cave Boit (29:07):

What is your favorite one you've done so far

Leslie Harter-Berg (29:11):

Of that? From that list

Emily Cave Boit (29:14):

Or from

Leslie Harter-Berg (29:14):

The whole?

Emily Cave Boit (29:14):

Just everything.

Leslie Harter-Berg (29:16):

Okay. One year we did, so Ryan got really into standup for a minute. He was terrible. He was not going to, we would go to open mic nights and he would try to do standup. And so one year we did a standup night and we invited all of our friends' kids to participate. So it was like a kid standup night and we had a brick wall displayed behind them and a mic and all the told jokes to the adults and that was such a

Emily Cave Boit (29:44):

Highlight. So fun. Amazing.

Leslie Harter-Berg (29:45):

Yeah.

Emily Cave Boit (29:46):

That is incredible. I love that. I absolutely love that. That's such a good idea. Okay. Talking about, we both kind of alluded to it, but talking about, because I remember we talked about this when I came to visit was finding love again after love was ripped right from you is quite a journey. So tell me about when you knew you were ready to meeting your now husband and I mean that is a whole journey in itself. I know we talked about this, we both hid them for a bit because we were so scared of judgment. So yeah, navigating that all. What was your experience?

Leslie Harter-Berg (30:35):

It's so complicated. It's so complicated. Wow. And I think that no one can really understand, but another widow because from the outside, I don't even know. I think that's the hard part, right? We're hiding them because we're trying to figure out how people are interpreting this. Are they thinking that we're replacing the person that we're moved on? We're no longer sad, we're good. It's so hard to get those thoughts out of your head when you're deciding to date again. And you asked when I was ready, I think I thought I was ready maybe before I was ready. I was like, there's that initial feeling of just loneliness when you are widowed. That's shockingly soon

(31:27):

After.

(31:29):

And I think that has a lot to do with just being used to having someone that you can reach out and touch the warm body in your bed, someone to hang out with you at night. And it's not so much that you really want to fall in love again is that you just want companionship again. You just crave it. I think that was really soon and I felt really guilty about that. And it felt like a betrayal to Ryan because I wanted a male escort. I didn't want a husband. I'm like, I want to be sad about my husband, but with a warm body, me and just follow me around the heat of a

Emily Cave Boit (32:10):

Meal when needed,

Leslie Harter-Berg (32:13):

On speed, when I need to have a breakdown. So Sullivan, my current husband, he showed up pretty soon after Ryan died. I met him two months after and I was at my sister's house at a little backyard taco night and he was following me around and I was with my kids and he was asking me all these very kind of dating questions. And it was just a surreal moment where you relate with people of the opposite sex while you're married. And all of a sudden I was like, this is different. I'm single. I just had the whole world turned on its axis. And I was like, I am a single, single woman. I'm a single woman and this man is not talking to me platonically. It was really strange. And Solomon is very handsome, real dreamboat situation. So I was like, yes, great. This is going to be the guy that I just make out with a few times and then drop. I need this right now. Did

(33:24):

He know you were a widow?

(33:26):

Dark? He did. So he was forward on his edge.

(33:30):

Okay.

(33:30):

Anyway, so I was like, my sister was game. She was like, yeah, just get that make out such. And I was like, yeah. And then everyone else in my life that also knew him and knew his life story were like, no, no, dude do not, her husband just died. So that ended very fast. The music was starting for a second and it was like he was called off of the widow. They were like too soon. So he started dating somebody else and that's

Emily Cave Boit (34:06):

It. How dare

Leslie Harter-Berg (34:06):

Him? I know, I know. How dare he dates someone that doesn't have trauma and two mouth to feed.

Emily Cave Boit (34:12):

Where is that girl Now we have some jealousy issues of her

Leslie Harter-Berg (34:15):

Rude. Yeah, no, I was like, oh, bye. He started dating someone very shortly after. And so then he was weirdly in the back of my mind. I didn't know him at all. So different than Ryan night and day different, but I was like, he was the first God that made me realize, I don't know, I just couldn't get him out of my mind. He's dating this girl and they're like long distance dating. And he became kind of like a joke when I would talk at my friends and be like, so that guy, you think he's going to drop that girl and I'll swoop in? I just kept making jokes. I was like, no, I was not in a healthy place. Like I said, I do think I

Emily Cave Boit (34:54):

Love this. I absolutely love this.

Leslie Harter-Berg (34:58):

It was good that we didn't get together at that time, obviously I was not super healthy. He was just sort of, I would watch his, I would stalk him and he'd be going to Europe and doing all this fun stuff. And I was like, I want to go to Europe with this guy. I was ready to kind of escape my life. And so he ends up breaking up with her a year later

Emily Cave Boit (35:21):

About time,

Leslie Harter-Berg (35:23):

And he actually shows up at my house, an architect, and he was working on projects at my house during this whole time. So he's dating another girl, he's working on my kitchen and in my bathroom, and we're just keeping it super fresh. I'm putting on makeup just in case it's

(35:40):

Off anyways, keeping it professional. But then one day he comes to my house after he breaks up and he stays for four hours and plays Play-Doh with my kids. And again, I was like, well, what is happening? And I remember being like, I didn't want my kids involved. If this is what I think it is, I don't want my kids around. I wanted to hide boyfriend from kids until boyfriend became fiance. But it was just kind of a weird start. So that was the beginning and then it was actually a lot slower. So it started where I was like, but then the whole process of actually dating with Saul was so much slower than falling in love the first time. And I think a lot of that for me had to do with kids because we could only date, I didn't really want them involved in the early days of our dating. So we were dating after they went to bed,

(36:35):

And usually you spend a lot of hours getting to know someone. And we were six months into dating and these little cracks of our life and we're like, why don't I feel like I know you deep enough to say I love you? We're not there yet. And so it took longer. We actually got advice from my therapist. He's like, you need to go out of town with each other. You need to spend some long time without the kids to figure this out. And so we did. And that was all it took to really fall in love. But yeah, it's complicated to hold because I still have very much feel in love with Ryan

(37:12):

And

(37:12):

Then to all of a sudden be in love with somebody else. It feels like you're living two universes at the same time. It's strange.

Emily Cave Boit (37:21):

Very. Yeah. I feel that even a little bit more now this week. So on the 19th, so Saturday is me and Colby's wedding anniversary, and I feel like now that, and we never got to celebrate one in person. And now that I've had another wedding, now that I've been married to Colin, it's like where I feel even when we were just dating, it felt it was still okay to do. You know what I mean? When I was just dating Colin, it was these anniversary moments or death anniversaries or wedding anniversaries. It was like you hadn't had that with someone else yet. And then now that I hat, it's this inner merry-go-round that is just so wild and you can feel it. I don't know about you, but this week I woke up yesterday and I was just like heavy. You can, your body knows and feels it, but at the same time, it's not like Colin's working, coming home. I'm living this life with Colin. But then there's this heaviness inside too that I'm also living. It's so weird.

Leslie Harter-Berg (38:42):

It is weird because I remember thinking before, like I said, when I was looking at other Instagrams, I was like, I'm going to be sad forever. Ryan will be part of my story forever. I'm going to make my life about Ryan. And then it's like you have another person and you're like, this affects them.

(39:02):

How does it affect them? And it's a lot more complicated when there's another person on the other end of that. So navigating it because this isn't a live person. And I feel like a lot of times the things that we're doing for our person are very much, when I'm doing things for Ryan, it feels like it really is something that I need. It's something that my kids need, not necessarily something that Ryan needs because that's an existential question of how these things affect him. And so I realized, okay, so this has to be about what I need on certain days, and I do have to think about how it affects Saul and how it plays out. And so I've sort of learned to, now Saul and I talk about Ryan all the time, but I've sort of learned to have those big days kind of siloed to choose a few dates on the calendar. And I basically told sa, I need these three, I need three moments. I need his birthday to be a big Ryan fest with the boys.

(40:12):

I need his death day to be just my own time. I always go back to Palm Springs and I have 48 hours alone. I revisit the places I write, I cry. I just need that for me. And then also one week of the year, we all go, we actually just got back to Orcas Island with all of Ryan's family. And that's really for me, and the kids just feel like we're still connected though our story expands. I was like, this is what I need now that doesn't include our wedding anniversary and all that. So I feel like I have struggles with the wedding one, how do I have this moment and what do I need from this day? Some

Emily Cave Boit (40:54):

Years had we not married Ryan and Colby, we would've not become widowed and then would've not then met Saul and Colin. It's this.

Leslie Harter-Berg (41:06):

I know there's a whole other, I had another baby. There's a whole,

Emily Cave Boit (41:11):

Yeah, we got to talk about that because I remember when I came down and we were recording for Vids for Wids, you kind of talked about that. You're like, now there's a whole nother life because kind of a life lost and navigating those emotions.

Leslie Harter-Berg (41:29):

That's been a big thing for my youngest Rory, who's seven now,

(41:35):

Which

(41:36):

Is weird. So he was one when Ryan died, and he's very much a feeler and he cries a lot about Ryan. And now his big thing that he says is he is trying to piece it all together is he loves Reese so much. My third son, he loves Reese, and so he is just like, if Ryan didn't die, Reese wouldn't be here. He has said that so many times. And I just love how kids are so matter of fact and external and they just say these sort of unspoken things. It's so complicated. I always say the good things that happen don't happen because that thing didn't have to happen

Emily Cave Boit (42:20):

In order and it doesn't take away that trauma or that emotions or anything at all. It doesn't all of a sudden just wash that away because there's also now

Leslie Harter-Berg (42:28):

Good. Yeah, it wasn't worth it. It's not worth it,

Emily Cave Boit (42:31):

But

Leslie Harter-Berg (42:33):

We can still be like, this is so good. Reese is so good. My marriage right now is so beautiful at the same time as this is terrible. Holding both of those. That's the great, that's the journey, figuring out to hold both of those.

Emily Cave Boit (42:56):

What I feel like widows, we always are very, we tell each other how we feel, but what would you tell either someone's family or someone that is planning to date a widow? What tell, what advice would you give walking in being like, this is what

Leslie Harter-Berg (43:18):

I feel like someone that is thinking of dating a widow. I mean, it's like don't be afraid to bring up the person. The little love is talking about that person. And then also kind of writing the big days on your calendar and keeping note of that. And being aware that the lead up to those days is often harder. And having grace for that person

(43:46):

That

(43:46):

I've been kind of March is I need so much grace in March. It's not a good time for me. And so I think my husband is learning that three years, three marches in, well, I guess four you count. When we were dating, we actually broke up our first march. I just couldn't. I know. So yeah, March is not a good time for me. And so I think as you learn that, I think it'd be nice knowing that going in it all knew that going in, okay, March is put a big X over it. I'm not going to be myself. The lead up to the death day, his birthday is the beginning of March, and then it's just one big lead up. And then after that I actually feel kind of lighter. I don't know about you, the rest of

Emily Cave Boit (44:29):

Me. It's like a relief.

Leslie Harter-Berg (44:29):

Relief. It,

Emily Cave Boit (44:32):

Yeah. I feel like Colin in particular, I mean this year was different because normally I'm surrounded by all me and Colby's family and friends, but I'm in California and there's no one here, right? So it's just Colin. So there's no one here that knew Colby, no one that I can do the traditions with and the anticipation leading up. And I just remember being extra just on high alert. I feel like I'm extra, maybe it's because the suddenness, but I remember that week leaning up being like, he works crazy hours. And I just remember he was in the office till 10 or 11:00 PM that night and I was like, can you just call so I can hear your voice before I try and fall asleep? It was those type of things of I could tell that I was like, well, just obviously clearly struggling with, and I always do April, kind of your March end of, I say March 7th to April 7th. I also, weirdly, I don't know about you, but April 6th and April 7th are harder for me

(45:42):

Than obviously the day he died is always the worst day. But I think for me, the sixth reliving those last moments and he was totally fine. And then the trauma of the seventh and rolling over to what I rolled over to and then COVID and not being allowed in. And those days are harder for me in that way. Then obviously the 11th is hard and it's triggering. But yeah, the anticipation days leading up, I'm like, I need so much grace. I don't talk to me or maybe talk to me. I don't know what's going to switch every minute.

Leslie Harter-Berg (46:20):

I always start getting it. I mean really from his birthday, but when it starts getting really heavy is when we left for California, when we got on the plane, which was March 26th,

(46:32):

My son Reese, my little one, he was born on March 24th and I in that complicates things a lot. So he's in the middle of it and I always feels so bad. I'm like, this is happening. Your birthday happens. Not a great time for me. But I knew when I found out we got pregnant, his due date was so close to Ryan's death day and I was like, oh hell no. And so I didn't get induced, but I did every form of home induction possible. I was like, this baby's coming early. He came 37 weeks in six days. He's healthy. So I dunno, but I don't know. But I was like, I have to get this baby out early. I cannot have this baby on April 1st and second. So now it's like I got him out before at least the 26th when things start getting really hairy. He came in right at the last second there.

Emily Cave Boit (47:25):

It's so interesting. I feel like some people that haven't experienced grief would probably look at that and be like, oh, it's probably a sign from Ryan. It's so comforting. And you're like, oh, heck no, it's so triggering. And actually

Leslie Harter-Berg (47:40):

No, I know a lot of people were like, because when they saw the due date, they were like, that's going to be so beautiful. It's going to be new birth. And I was like, that means that every one of his birthdays, I'm going to want to go away and be alone in Palm Springs and break down. That's not good for me. So yeah, I didn't plan the timing of getting pregnant actually. I didn't really think that's

Emily Cave Boit (48:03):

For So a tip to any widows and widowers listening to this.

Leslie Harter-Berg (48:06):

Look at a calendar. Okay, track recycle, look at calendar 40 weeks from your last miss period. Yeah, no, not smart. Not smart.

Emily Cave Boit (48:20):

Yeah, that'd be rough. But talking about our dark kind of humor and how we make jokes of all this, I have such morbid humor and I know you do too, which led you to start Vs. For wis, which I absolutely love. When I see some of them I'm like, oh, heck yeah, they're validating and funny, but they make you laugh and they're so true. So yeah. What obviously Ryan's passing made you want to start that, but what kind of led up to all that?

Leslie Harter-Berg (48:57):

So I make videos for a living and I was like, you want to create something from all the crap in your life. And part of me was everything that I was taking in online after Ryan died was very, I would say sentimental or just really sad. And I was like, I'm not just sad. I think really when I talk with other widows, there is sort of like, we're getting sad, we're talking about tough things and then all of a sudden we're joking

(49:32):

And

(49:32):

It's like this ping pong. And so I was like, oh, I want to represent that tone a little bit. And so that's one thing that inspired Vids for Wids. The other thing is we've already talked about the only thing that was actually helpful was talking with other widows. So I'm, the more stories of other widows telling their story that's online, the better. So I'm just like, I want to hear all the answers to all the questions, all the nitty gritty and all the dark thoughts and the weird humor. And so the birth of Vids is just trying to get other widows to tell their stories to help other widows. Especially in that first year when you just need to hear, oh, I'm not a weirdo. You feel like a freak because for most people's community, there's not usually another way

Emily Cave Boit (50:19):

Eyes on your

Leslie Harter-Berg (50:19):

Circle. So you feel like, oh, I'm the only one. So it is helpful to have other people's stories and to feel like, oh no, I'm not that special. We're everywhere. There's widows everywhere. So that is why I started. It's

Emily Cave Boit (50:35):

Been

Leslie Harter-Berg (50:36):

Really fun.

Emily Cave Boit (50:36):

It is so funny down to the lasagnas and people bring casserole and yeah, it's so accurate. I absolutely love all the videos that you do,

Leslie Harter-Berg (50:52):

That

Emily Cave Boit (50:52):

You do such a good job with it all. Speaking again on that, you are writing a book slash wrote a book. Tell us a little bit about that.

Leslie Harter-Berg (51:06):

So the book is called You are So Strong. So as we all know, we hear that one a lot, love it. And it comes out. It actually comes out. I did not choose the day it's coming out March 24th, which is Reese's birthday. It's coming out. Not a great time for me, but they chose it and we're just going to ride those grief waves. I probably will be crying in interviews when the book comes out, but it's yeah, going to be March 24th. I think it'll go in presale in the fall so people can preorder it. But yeah, it's so strong and it's called On Grief. The subtitle is on grief and letting go of my favorite compliment. So it's sort of the journey of feeling I need to be so strong and then learning to let that go. Not really helpful.

Emily Cave Boit (51:56):

No, it's not. I feel like, yeah, when people say that, you're like, no, thank you.

Leslie Harter-Berg (52:02):

I think for me, at the time, I was like, okay, yeah, I feel like I didn't do anything and people were saying I was so strong, all I had to do was show up and they were like, you are the strongest person I know. So I feel like I was like, okay, so this is why you guys need me to be, I'm getting a read of the room.

Emily Cave Boit (52:24):

That's true. Yeah. That's actually a good way to put it.

Leslie Harter-Berg (52:27):

Yeah. So I was like, all right, this is what everyone needs me to be. I'm going to be so strong for everybody. And that didn't really go well for me. So it's kind of like,

Emily Cave Boit (52:37):

Yeah, you put on this. Yeah, strong to be strong for them. But for me, when people said that, I was like, but I don't feel strong. I don't feel like I'm nailing this experience. I don't know what I'm doing.

Leslie Harter-Berg (52:51):

Yeah. I think a lot of times people say, because they need to know that if it happened to them, they would be strong. So they're like,

Emily Cave Boit (52:57):

That's such a good point.

Leslie Harter-Berg (52:58):

You're so strong, right? You're going to be okay. Right. I just feel like they're seeing a potential future them, and they need to know that they got out of bed in the morning. I dunno. That's how it felt for me.

Emily Cave Boit (53:10):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very true. Well, looking back on, okay, the last question here, looking back from Brian, first passing to now, what would you go back and tell yourself you were more than, or what would you tell yourself? What would you tell day one widow Leslie?

Leslie Harter-Berg (53:35):

That's a tough question. I would be so easy on myself. I just feel like I would be like, take it one day at a time. Stay in bed if you need to. I would probably say don't start working so soon. I kind of just jumped back into everything and stopped trying so hard. I just feel like I really felt like I had to do everything so right in grief. So I think I would go back and tell myself to take it easy. I don't know why I was putting all that extra pressure on myself. I think maybe it had to be worth it. It had to have me. It couldn't have been random. So I just wish that I, yeah, I'd be like, take it easy, Leslie. Take a nap. Nap, girl. Seriously,

Emily Cave Boit (54:29):

You deserve a nap. No. Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that, but seriously, I remember that first post and I remember exactly laying in bed and it gave me a lot of hope. So thank you for sharing your story and still sharing your story. And I'm sorry that we're part of this crappy sisterhood together, but super lucky to have you in it.

Leslie Harter-Berg (54:51):

Yeah, thank you for this and helping other widows tell your story through this and having me. I wish we were in the same town so we could actually

Emily Cave Boit (55:00):

Hang. I know I get down, I think we're two. Yeah. Your sister's still in la, right? That's like four and a half hour drive from sf.

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:10):

Oh, you're in San Francisco?

Emily Cave Boit (55:12):

Yeah, we're outside of San

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:13):

Francisco. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be, I'll get there. We'll figure

Emily Cave Boit (55:17):

Out. I know. I'll come back up. Perfect. We can do some more. Its for Wids videos.

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:20):

Yes, please.

Emily Cave Boit (55:22):

I know Reese was fresh, like newborn. Newborn when I met him.

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:27):

I know, because in that video, this is going to be a slightly probe, but my boobs are huge because I have nothing. I have nothing but when I'm breastfeeding. So I remember watching rewatching that before this and I was like, wow, girl. Busting out of the dogs

Emily Cave Boit (55:44):

Kid number four on the way.

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:46):

Just, yeah, TMI. But yeah, he was very new. I think he was like two months old.

Emily Cave Boit (55:51):

Yeah. So cute. So cute. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Leslie Harter-Berg (55:59):

Thank

Emily Cave Boit (55:59):

You. Lucky to know you. Ryan and Col were probably up there and having been partying pretty hard for us,

Leslie Harter-Berg (56:05):

They better be. They better be.

Emily Cave Boit (56:07):

They better be pretty funny up there together.

Leslie Harter-Berg (56:09):

Yeah. Cracking jokes.

Emily Cave Boit (56:10):

Yeah.

Emily Page (56:29):

Thanks for listening to you or more, Emily would love to hear from you. Reach out via the text link in the show notes and let her know what resonated. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. Don't forget to follow the podcast and leave a rating to help others find the show. Thanks for listening.