96 | Dressing For The Woman You're Becoming: Style, Aging & Self-Discovery with Christine Morrison

Have you ever stood in front of your closet full of clothes and thought, what in the world do I wear? Not excited, not inspired, just stuck. In this conversation on Pleasure in the Pause, host Gabriella Espinosa sits down with Christine Morrison, renowned journalist and author of Clothes Minded: Fashionable Essays About Finding Yourself, to explore how clothing becomes intertwined with the moments that shape us, from joy and ambition to grief, motherhood, and reinvention. 

This episode explores what it means to open your closet not with pressure but with curiosity, how to dress for the woman you are becoming instead of the woman you used to be, and why style in midlife is about self-expression, not constraint.

Christine Morrison is a renowned journalist and the creator of writing in black and white, a newsletter and online platform that explores fashion and beauty through the lens of aging. Every day, she challenges conventional narratives about growing older. Her work has appeared in The Washington Post, The Boston Globe and in campaigns for major fashion and beauty brands. A former Calvin Klein Vice President and current member of THE BOARD, Morrison brings sharp insight and personal perspective to Clothes Minded: Fashionable Essays About Finding Yourself, a collection of essays on style, identity and self-discovery.

Highlights from our discussion include:

• Fashion is not frivolous
• The white crisp shirt as superhero cape
• Dismiss the "age appropriate" rules
• Certain clothes hold entire chapters of your life

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The information shared on Pleasure in the Pause is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before making any decisions about your health or treatment. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or Pleasure in the Pause.

Transcript

Gabriella Espinosa 0:27

Welcome to Pleasure in the Pause, a podcast dedicated to empowering midlife women to connect with their bodies, pleasure, and power in Perimenopause, Menopause, and beyond. I am your host, Gabriela Espinosa. Each week I sit down with leading medical experts, thought leaders, and trailblazers for bold, thought-provoking conversations that educate, inspire, and challenge the myths we've been taught about our bodies, aging, and sexuality. I also share solo episodes with evidence-based insights and real talk to help you feel informed, supported, and in charge of your health and pleasure in this season of life. Because your pleasure matters in and out of the bedroom. So take a deep breath, settle into your body, and let's begin. Hello, beautiful listeners. Welcome back to Pleasure in the Pause. There's a moment I think most of us have had. Standing in front of our closet, looking at a rail of clothes and thinking, what in the world do I wear? Not excited, not inspired, just stuck. And it's never really about the clothes is it? It's about how you're feeling in your own skin. It's about the version of you you want to step into that day. Our clothes carry so much memory, confidence, and even the parts of ourselves we don't always want to show. They hold pieces of our story, where we've been and who we are right now. I had my own version of that moment recently. As I've shared already, I'll be turning 60 next month, and I decided I wanted to celebrate in a big way, in a way that felt fully, unapologetically me. I called it my still hot birthday. I wanted to feel alive, feminine, confident. So I went looking for that dress. I decided it was going to be something in red. I tried on a lot of beautiful things, like a gown, a long tool skirt, a lace slip, even something that felt and looked like a cat suit. And every single one felt like I was trying way too hard, like I was wearing a version of someone else. And then I found it. A red dress I already owned tucked in the back of my closet. I put it on and everything just settled. It felt effortless. It felt right. It felt like me. And that's when something clicked. It wasn't about the dress at all. It was about that feeling of alignment. When what you're wearing actually matches how you see yourself, or maybe even who you're ready to be. My guest today has written an entire book about exactly that. Christine Morrison is a journalist and former fashion executive who writes about style, aging, and identity with honesty and depth. Her new book, Close Minded, Fashionable Essays About Finding Yourself, is a collection of personal essays that explore how clothing becomes intertwined with the moments that shape us. From joy and ambition to grief, motherhood and reinvention. It's nostalgic, funny, and moving. But underneath it all, it asks a question I think so many of us are sitting with in midlife. Who am I now? In this conversation, we talk about Christine's journey through fashion and self-discovery, the pieces of clothing that have carried her through different chapters of her life, and that voice so many of us hear. Am I too old to wear this? And what it looks like to push back on it. And we discuss what it means to open your closet, not with pressure, but with curiosity. This is one of those conversations that might just change the way you see what's already hanging in your closet. And I'm so excited to share it with you. Let's welcome Christine Morrison to the show. Christine, welcome to Pleasure in the Pause. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited about our conversation. You've had quite a journey, Christine, from advertising executive to working at one of the most iconic fashion houses in the world, Calvin Klein, to reinventing yourself as a writer for some of the biggest fashion and beauty brands out there. And now a book. I have it right here with me. I love it so much. Close Minded Fashion Essays About Finding Yourself. I have to ask you why this book and why now?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It's funny. Chapter two, I actually wrote in 1998 when the incident happened. And the incident is a boyfriend, he's a relatively new boyfriend, says to me, I'm watching CNN style with Elsa Clinch, which will date this conversation. I love that show. I remember that. I used to love that show. And there was you couldn't watch runway shows online because there really was no internet and everything. So I would watch it and he came in and he looked, I was taking notes because I just was very much into it. And it was the Ralph Lauren show from 98. And he said, You don't think you're gonna be a model, do you? And I mean, and I and the joke here is very self-aware. At the time I was 28, and I say, I'm very self-aware, I'm 5'1 on a good day. But even if I thought I was cute, I was like not even JC Penny winter coat lottling capable. And clearly that relationship did not last because I thought that was very representative of just not being seen. I wanted to get more involved in fashion. I was living in Chicago at the time, and I very much knew I was gonna leave Chicago and move to New York, and I wanted to work in a fashion house, and he just didn't get me. So I wrote that chapter at the time as more of a journal entry. I kept a journal my whole life. Then I got to New York and I started continuing to write and write. And even though I went to journalism school, I went back to take classes at Parsons and NYU because the way to break into women's magazines at the time was personal essays. And I wrote a couple more chapters. I wrote chapter three, which again, these are more essays to maybe pitch to magazines. And then a decade goes by. I go and work at Kelvin and I end up getting married and having children. And it wasn't until 2016 Jesse Klein had an essay collection that I just loved. And it was called You'll Grow Out of It. And it just spoke to me so much about her being sort of a tomboy, and it went through her journey to get to who she was today. And I was like, that's the book I need to write, but told her what I wore.

Gabriella Espinosa 7:48

For our listeners who haven't picked it up yet, give us a full picture because it's not just a fashion book. It's part personal essays, you mentioned, part memoir. And honestly, I felt it was a full genetic trip down memory laying through everything we're loving. So, what can they expect when they open Close Minded?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Okay, that's a great way of saying it. There's so much nostalgia for not just the fashion, although that is an enormous part of it, but just our cultural lifestyle, the whole thing. There was once a book in the 90s called Love Loss and What I Wore that a woman wrote and that the Efron sisters put on Broadway. And it was just a gift-sized book. It was sketched and not really much of writing, but that's really what this is. It's my journey from the 90s to the present of love, loss, working in fashion, motherhood, marriage to find my true self. But it just so happens it's told through what I wore. The garments are the literary device. Like the white shirt becomes a superhero cape for me. This dress that I buy before I leave Chicago to step on the plane the next day to move to New York, I went into a high-end store that I was always afraid to go into. But I go in and I bought an Andamulam Easter dress that I still wear today, 28 years later. And what that meant for me, like getting on the plane, I was carrying it in a garment bag and they put me in first class. I wore it in all these different circumstances when I wanted to feel bigger and better than who I thought I was, but then I felt like I needed to show up for myself. And that was helping me get there. And I really believe at the end of the day, what you wear shapes who you are and who you strive to be because it's an unspoken language.

Gabriella Espinosa 9:43

Yeah, I love how you describe that. And I want to read a quote, which is right at the introduction, which I love and so spoke to me. You say, fashion for me has always been more than silhouettes and trims. It's memory, identity, rebellion, armor, and at times escape. My ever-evolving wardrobe mirrors my growth, shapes my voice, and helps me reclaim parts of myself.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah.

Gabriella Espinosa 10:11

And that spoke to me so much because you really encapsulated it for me. I shared with you a personal story that I want to share with people and just get your take on it. This year I'm turning 60, and I decided that this birthday was not going to be quiet. I gave it a theme because I was going to organize a birthday party, and I did recently. And I was going to say it's going to be my still hot birthday because I'm going to prove to the world at 60. I'm still hot because I love it. I wanted to feel hot, feminine, confident. So I set out to find the perfect dress, even though I had a whole wardrobe full of clothes that I could wear. But I'm like, no, I need something new, something else. I tried on a red satin ball gown, a ballerina tool skirt, a lacelet dress. Oh my gosh, and I told you about the Victoria Beckham that suit gown. Every single one gorgeous on its own felt like a costume. Not me at all. Well said. I just want to feel comfortable and confident and show off my best parts, which for me were my legs. So I settled with a dress that did exactly that, that I had in my closet. I think it was a hundred and twenty dollar Zara dress, which I felt like, no, it needs to be expensive and showy. But no, that was exactly what I needed for this moment. That dressing capitalized everything that you say in this quote.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

That's so good. And what I love what you just said is it wasn't a costume. And I think that's why when people dress to impress other people and they don't really find themselves along the way, you do. You fidget, you're not comfortable in your own skin, and you are putting on a performance. It's it's fashion becomes performative instead of being something that's genuine and authenticates who you are. And again, you are the perfect example. It doesn't have to cost more, it doesn't have to be a label, it doesn't have to have gone down a runway. It's whatever your choice is that makes you feel. And I know we'll talk about this, but that's where as we get into midlife, we slowly forget that and we start to just cover up and try to, I don't know, camouflage a body that's shape-shifting, disguise some parts that were just like, oh, I don't want to show this anymore. And we really go into a little bit of an identity crisis. And the way back isn't to just pile on more, it's to start over and remember how we got there.

Gabriella Espinosa 12:59

Yeah, I love that so much because I think that's what I was going through at that moment. Yeah. Identity crisis. I'm like, what does being 60 feel like? I would all those things. And I think a lot of women, yeah, what is going through menopause, going through my 40s, 50s, what is this going through the second half of life feel like? And I always tell people to ask themselves that question. You can define it for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

How is it that you want to and only you can define it? Only you. Because when you mentioned early in the before we got on the show, you were saying someone said to you, What does your husband think? And it doesn't matter what anybody externally said, it had to feel good here because your husband's not wearing the dress. You had to feel amazing at that party. And if you didn't, your time of the celebration would have been different. It felt not great in that because a 60 is awesome. One thing I think a chapter that I really thought I've had a lot. I couldn't believe how many people have come to me and said, Oh my God, this is exactly was when I went through postpartum. Motherhood is obviously a big shift in our identity. But I had in one calendar year, I had left New York working at Calvin. I got married, and I delivered twins. Talk about an identity crisis. I was having a very big moment of, when what's happening? And what I put on every day, very much just wanted to cover up and go away because my body was not my own, but I had to find my way back. And that chapter goes through how I did that. And thank God at the time Jenna Lyons was running J. Crew 2009, 2010. And you have to play. I also knew a little bit of who I was. I knew I was never gonna wear like a bunch of jewelry and the bubble necklace. I also had to be honest with myself of what's my lifestyle. I am a mother of babies. Jewelry isn't the thing anyway for me because I'm a minimalist, but also that's not my lifestyle. And I'm tired. I'm not gonna be like try cleaning clothes and pressing them.

Gabriella Espinosa 15:16

And then yeah, I love how the book really touches on embracing all the seasons that you're in. And hardom is one of them, menopause is one of them. And we can be so hard on ourselves and our bodies, and body image is such a big topic for us. But I love how the book just invites us to see fashion not as something frivolous, but as a form of reinvention, as a form of stepping into who we are meant to be as being more ourselves and also of letting go of things. Chapter four, I loved, because that was when you were just about starting out in your career. You're standing out this boutique in Chicago that you almost didn't go to because it was like all these shy fashion labels, but you do, and then you find this extraordinary Anne Demila Meister piece and something shifts for you.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

A wool sheet with five armholes. When you pick it up, you're like, what is this thing? But if you wrap it, it becomes a dress.

Gabriella Espinosa 16:23

I had to look up an image of Anne Demila Meister because I had not heard about her. And I love it. Yeah, that was such iconic dressing for that time. But can you take us back to that moment? What did that dress represent for you? Because I think it speaks to something so many women feel that a single piece of clothing can be the thing that says, I'm ready now. I'm ready to step into this version of me.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

It represented freedom and bravery. The bravery to say, I'm good enough to walk into this store. And I know that sounds ridiculous today, but I was a young girl who didn't have a lot of money, and I was taking the chance. I was moving into an apartment in New York City by myself. I didn't know anybody, and I went in that store the day before. So the bravery, but also the freedom because I thought I am going to buy this and I'm gonna wear it at this new job and in this new city because I am taking a chance on myself. I am investing in myself. And in the scheme of things, 28 years later, the cost per wear is like a penny, right? I thought to myself, I've never done anything like this. And I thought, really standing outside, what I said in the book is if I can get on a plane and move myself to New York City, how can I not walk in this store and buy something that means something to me? It's crazy the dress. And it came with this piece of paper with all these sketches of all the different ways you could wear it and that oversized, I call it an oversized diaper pin because that's the best way to describe it from like those cloth diapers when you would have a pen. And you can put the it is so cool. I've never seen anything like it before and never since. And I'm just so honored. I'm thrilled I still have it. And I still wear it. I probably wear it twice a year, if that it's a gray wool, and there's been part of it that's worn a little, had not repaired because I'm like, I'm going in my this is terrible. I'm gonna be buried in this thing. I don't know. And when I put it on, I almost am standing on that side. I could cry. I'm standing on that sidewalk, scared to death, not to go into the store, but yes, into the store, but to walk on that plane and take a new life. But the irony is that was on a Friday that I moved to New York City. I unpacked in my apartment Saturday and all day Saturday, Sunday morning, I went down to Soho because I lived on the upper west side in New York, and I had long hair like I do now, but even longer, like really curly because I have naturally curly hair, Sarah Jessica Parker like people would stop me all the time in the airport, older men, which I always thought, who is watching Sex in the City? And they would say, Oh, you have Sarah Jessica Parker hair. And I cut it all off to the sliding doors haircut, the pixie. Because the Coco Chanel would always say, a woman who cuts her hair is about to change her life. And I was like, I'm all in here.

Gabriella Espinosa 19:23

Yeah, I love that part because you were so ready to embrace this new phase of your life and really take on New York City. It was such a beautiful essay. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

I think you have to take chances, you know, with what you can take and play around because that's how you figure out what works. I started growing it out like the next day, probably.

Gabriella Espinosa 19:47

And yeah, that taking chances makes me think again, something else that we were talking about before we hopped on, which pops into my mind like this insidious kind of whisper like, is that appropriate for you to wear at this phase right now? Are you too old to wear that, Gabriella? And those things just come in from out of nowhere. And I just have to like ignore it. How can we use fashion in the way that you describe it as a way of stepping into midlife and really owning who we are, who we are becoming? Because again, doing away with all that nonsense that we hear about age-appropriate dressing, too old to wear this or that.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

That's the first thing is you have to step aside from the conditioning that women can only wear this or shouldn't have long hair, should wear longer things, shouldn't wear short things. And like we were talking about beforehand was one of the things that you love about yourself are your legs, and they're beautiful. You're wearing a short dress to your 60th birthday party was the perfect choice because you should be showing off the features that you feel amazing about. I think giving yourself permission to feel and wear what you want and dismissing all of the rules that people always say. And it's women putting it on women. That's the thing. It's there, but that's what it's in in the same vein that I do feel like there's a lot of judgment going on about who does what with injectable. The fact is, each her own, whatever makes you feel really good about yourself. My thing is always what is your intent like with regard to beauty? If your intent is to fight, just stay as young as you can, then there's something more happening up here. This is not about the skin. You should embrace aging, maybe a little more, but about what you're wearing, embrace it, enjoy it, allow it to be self-expression. That's what it's there for, not to constrain you.

Gabriella Espinosa 21:57

Yeah, you mentioned this bringing in this element of play earlier and playing almost like you're playing dress up. That was what my attitude was when I ordered all those dresses. I'm like, I'm just gonna play dress up just to see, just to get a sense, just to get this out of my mind of okay, could there be something else I could wear that makes me feel better than I do with this dress that I already have in my closet? So it was a fun experiment playing dress up. And funnily enough, the dress that I did. Shoes, the cape dress. It was very, very short. It had this pink and stuff. This superpower. Oh, I love it. You also have your super powered cape. Talk to us about it. You have your iconic go-to fashion garment, which is the white crisp blouse.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Which I can't believe I don't have one on tonight. I can't believe I'm not wearing a white shirt. I will tell you it's five out of seven days of the week. But I will say one of the things I love about a white shirt, and there's always like the 10 things you should have in your closet. I would never recommend anything like that, but I will say a white shirt is one of the most amazing, versatile, it's like a palette cleanser because you can wear anything. Like I'm a minimalist. I always say I'm a minimalist since in utero, but I really am. If you want to play with color, it gives you a chance to not be so wild. Like I used to wear when I was young a lot of these Cynthia Rowley pants. And so that's where it started. Like I would wear a white crisp shirt to tame the pants. But it for me now, it just became habitual. I had them on so often that once you start to put it on, it becomes a weighted blanket, comfort. And then it becomes more and more, you feel so good in it, but then it took on meaning, and then you can't take that away from it. And it can be whether you're going on an interview or a date or some sometime that you just feel like you need a little bit of confidence boost. It just for me, that is something I feel so strongly about. I had a party, uh book launch party in January, and every woman that I knew said, I know you're wearing a white shirt. And I said, You know it. Because I was afraid. I was afraid to walk into a room of 80 women and do a reading. And I just felt also couldn't have felt more like myself. That's 50, almost 57. I've been doing this white shirt for 30 years, and it's great. And I love that look, right?

Gabriella Espinosa 24:34

I love that crisp, minimalist look. I'm not sure I've ever pulled it off quite right. I have like one white shirt in my closet. I know. You need three more. I can't never style it quite right. So for women who want to make it a look, where do they start? How do you recommend styling a crisp, minimalist white shirt?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

One of the things I think people are so stiff in them, and I say it's crisp because it's I don't love linen wrinkled shirts. That's just not that's just me. But what I love is I love having it like it's a Jenna Lyons roll, how she rolls her sleeves. You roll it all the way up and then you roll it halfway. So I do love it rolled and a little lived in so that you're not to your daughter's point, I don't look corporate and look comfortable and lived in, but yet the shirt itself is starched and pressed and the collars up. I don't know. There's just a like a, hey, I'm here and I've got something to say, which I do think this is what makes me so sad with visibility as you get older. I know that we really like 70% of women say, I don't feel seen as I get older and ageism is rampant. Anything you can do. So I think if you've got that collar up and the shirt and the rolled sleeve and the however, but you gotta have a little lived in. It can't be too tight and starched. And do you tuck it in, leave it out? A combination, sometimes fully tucked, but the half tuck is always so big. But I do think you have to find where you're gonna not fidget. And so it depends on what I'm wearing. If I have a really low slung pant, I probably tuck it in all the way. If I have something a little more high-waisted, I have something a little coming out of the side. I don't tie sweaters around me a lot because that's not me. But I do like to have like a jacket over it, but it never gets buttoned up too much because I think you need to see the white shirt.

Gabriella Espinosa 26:28

And in the book, you take us through so many chapters of your fashion sense, fashion identity from preppy handbook girl to the New Yorker to the Calvin executive, the mother, the writer, and now you have your superhero cape with your do you think we ever arrived at a final style identity, or we always in the middle of becoming someone new? Do you recommend that?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

When you get toward the end of the book, basically the sorry the book is called Clothes Minded, and it's really about this exploration and self-discovery. But the last chapter is called, not I'm not giving anything away. You can read, you can see this on the title page. And if you open up Amazon, it's called open-minded. And that is because while we as women should and continually be open-minded and curious and embrace evolution because we want to continue to grow, right? Don't feel the need to be constantly looking for what's the new thing and what I have to try this. I have my uniform. I love it. I don't buy a lot of clothes at all. I don't play around with what's the new looks or anything like that. I might put in bandanas are really big. They've been really big in the last year. Putting a bandana with what I already wear a lot of, which is like great denim with a white shirt. That's something you can play with, but I don't think I'm evolving in that way more. A little bit of play, but you know, at this part, I know exactly who I am, but I know I'm growing creatively through my work, through my writing, through other things I'm doing. Just don't think I'm expanding my wardrobe that much.

Gabriella Espinosa 28:22

I laughed so much reading your book, but I was also moved to tears. And it made me think about how much feeling we actually store in certain articles of clothing. I know I have things in my closet that I just cannot part with. Have you ever been taken over by an immersion just from opening your closet? I mean, you speak of the Anne-Demie Lamila dress, but are there any other items like that evoke that level of emotion for you?

SPEAKER_00 28:53

So I don't have a pair of overalls in my closet today for a very big reason. The chapter where I lose my father, I'm wearing them while he is in the hospital before he passes, and he's this is the hard part. He pulls me up by like the straps of the overalls into the bed. He had a stroke and he really couldn't communicate any longer. But we had the best conversation that we had in a long time, is what I say. He was trying and we connected in a way I hadn't felt in a long time. And after he passed, I say in the chapter, like, I will never buy a pair of overalls again. And sadly, the overall trend came back. And I was like, not for me. That's something, and I don't keep them in my closet because that would be very hard for me. But I do have one thing that I could never fit into, but I keep it in a bin in a little Calvin box, which is why I was able to photograph it for the book because there are 11 images in the book, key things along the way. And it is the theory camel skirt that I bought for the interview for Calvin. And I couldn't afford it. Again, that's sort of a running theme. There was a lot of ambition in my life, and particularly for my career, I was a very ambitious person, and I had been doing pro bono work and I was trying to break into fashion. So I had a really tough year, and I had gotten this interview, and I went and got this skirt, and I go to the interview, and I had to go back multiple times to finally get the interview, and it was very tough. And that skirt just reminds me so much of the young girl that was just so damn determined, and I'm just so proud of her.

Gabriella Espinosa 30:48

I love how those pieces of clothing just commemorate that grit, that determination, that ambition. And we need those reminders, not necessarily to say, okay, I want to be her again. Just those reminders to honor a very important phase of your life. And that's what I think the book does. And so beautifully. It honors all these different stages of your life as you were moving into womanhood, coming of age, and you write so so beautifully. There was another piece of clothing, your wedding dress. Can you tell us?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So I didn't get married until I was on the verge of 40. I was 39 and ish. And so I always say I didn't want to say yes to the $10,000 dress because despite working in fashion, you would think I'd be all about that. I was like, I wanted the marriage, not the wedding. And I was really dead set on I didn't like lace. I'm again, I'm a minimalist and I didn't know how I was going to do this. But I walk in and I end up getting this head-to-toe lace Monique Lillier. So I say yes, I get this incredible dress, and I spend all the dollars on it and have a wonderful marriage. I've been married today 18 years. It's awesome. We get back from the honeymoon and I package it up because at the time, resale of those dresses was big. And I package it up, and my husband says, What's happening? What did you just do? And I said, I'm selling it. And he was crestfallen. I and he said, You have to get that back. And I was like, What? Um, I don't have a daughter. No one's gonna want to wear this again. This is like a great way, not only to have some other young women enjoy this, but also I'm gonna get some money back, and this is gonna be amazing, and maybe I'll make a story out of it sometime. And he said, I really think is such a significant part of our history. Whatever, he was very much, please take that, get that dress back. I contacted the company and they said, We've never had this happen, but okay. They sent it back 10 years later. He goes, Why should I let you do it? You should do it now. I'm like, the moment's over, the resale on it is over. So it's upstairs in my closet in its little package, but I couldn't have imagined that this was gonna be such a production. I also would have never imagined that I was going to wear something like that, but it was the perfect dress for me. It was like the second dress I maybe tried on. I can't remember what I said, but it was like first or second. I was like, this is it. And it's funny because I think when we get married, we I also was never even sure. I never like pictured myself going down the aisle. I had no idea what that would be like. I know a lot of young girls know exactly what they want, but I just didn't. And I think it's a big moment in your life to because you'll always have that photo, you'll always know that who was that woman. And also you're changing your that's another place, you're really changing your identity that day as you go down that aisle.

Gabriella Espinosa 33:54

Yeah, but it it captures a moment in time. I still have my wedding dress, and I remember oh, all the thought that went into picking it, and I knew exactly then what I wanted and what I wanted to communicate with that dress. I love that story of the wedding dress. You also include in the book voices from an incredible group of women as Facy London, April Garglio, and others. Was there one conversation that genuinely shifted something how you think about style and identity?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Of the 12 women. So it's the epilogue, which is called Famous Last Words. And when I reached out to these women, first of all, they're trailblazers in fashion and beauty. And I've reached out because the idea was to get a style takeaway. And because book agents had said that would be so cool. As much as your story is a good one, people might want to hear from other people, especially like a Stacey London or a Raz Carr, who is just renowned in helping women as they age find their style, keep their style, really play with what to do next. It would be hard to pick my favorite. But one that made me really touched my heart was Sarah Clary, is Jenna Lyons stylist and kind of collaborator. And she's a stylist that sort of put J. Crew kids on the map. And one of the things was you see her now and you think she's so stylish, so cool, so chic, so confident. She writes about growing up and having zero confidence and trying on, making like an editorial calendar, if you will, of looks that she was gonna wear, like in middle school, what she was gonna try on to who she was gonna be that day. Was she an artist kid? Was she a grunge kid? Was she preppy to try on different things? That is like 101. She was trying to figure out who she was because she was so insecure. And she said I had no idea that this was gonna become a creative career and that I would find myself. And that to me is like this encapsulates the full book. And Joyce Lee is the same thing, she's an accessories designer, she made shoes out of you know the rings that come around like soda cans. And she actually ended up being a Marc Jacobs shoe designer. This has become her career now. These women, it just goes to show there's something going on at a young age, and that my story is super universal because here's 12 more women who didn't have confidence that used fashion to find themselves, whether they go into fashion or don't, it's a universal trait. You use fashion a lot, whether you're into it or reading magazines or not, it becomes something that shapes you. It just is why.

Gabriella Espinosa 37:02

Yeah. And the way that you take us down that memory lane, that gen X memory lane, I think women who read the book, they'll get that, right? Even though you say, Oh, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. We are all influenced by fashion. And so even though even like your collection of fashion magazines, being obsessed with the latest Calvin Klein underwear. I mean, we're all influenced by it in some shape or form.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Even if I'm not out there shopping and buying, I love to me now at this age, I love the cultural impact of what's happening. I love knowing, like I said, the thing about the bandanas. So I write this Substack and I have this new series called Sartorial Snapshot. And I don't think it's just about like bandanas are big now. I ladder it up to the fact that bandanas are big, but isn't it amazing that women our age are wearing this thing around their neck and it's becoming a focal point of an area that is like the one of the first areas that is the signs of aging, and we don't care. And I love that. We don't care because SLIL is bigger than whether we have some tech neck lines. Who cares? But it's so fun to think about what's happening and what does it mean for us as women. Like the graphic tees are being they're making a lot more statements about what's happening in the world and giving us a voice instead of like in the 90s, remember it was all like free Brittany and which was like the Paris Hilton stuff. And now it has more meaning, some of the things that are going on. And I think it's because women are eager to be seen and heard. We will not be dismissed. And I think fashion is a big part of that.

Gabriella Espinosa 38:50

Yeah, and I do see that a lot of women just stepping in and it doesn't have to be super loud, but just make one or two statement pieces that really make a statement in terms of who you are. This is who I am now. Totally. For any woman who opens her closet every morning feeling that disconnected or oh my gosh, just not knowing how to step into that feeling of letting clothes just add a little bit of spark or color or aliveness into her life. What's the first thing you would tell her to do?

SPEAKER_00 39:27

I think first is ask yourself the question is like, what's my lifestyle? What is realistically the life I'm living? And because a lot of women are, let's say you're an empty nester or you are going back to work. Those are very different lives. And then do a really honest edit of what works for you. Not because it's rules or age appropriate, but what works on your body. And when you put it on, how do you feel? Does it bring you joy? And not the whole like Maria Kondo, does it bring you joy if it doesn't throw it out? No, like when you put it on, does it make you feel good about yourself? And if it does not, you don't need something else to be a critic in your closet. First of all, you won't wear it. And second of all, this is really about stepping into some positive affirmations here. And then if it's not in your closet, play around. Go back to how you found yourself in the first place 20, 30 years ago. Play around with some things. I wouldn't go with trends, but I would go with some classic staple pieces that just really fit well. And if things in your closet, because you had menopause and midlife, tailor things you have. I had a Veronica beard jacket that just doesn't agree with me anymore. So I had buttons changed and something adjusted, and I'm like, I love it now. My whole thing is don't give up and just put on the yoga pants and the sweatshirt and say, I'm done. Because when you give up with what you put on every day, it does end up seeping in to how you treat yourself and how you go through the world. It really does. There's this phrase called, have you ever heard of something called enclosed cognition? No, no, I haven't. Tell us. So there's this thing, and I'm gonna read it. I had to click click on it. Enclosed cognition is the psychological theory that the clothes we wear influence our cognitive processes, emotions, and behavior. It is a scientific fact that what you put on influences how you go about your way in the world and how people, unfortunately, do judge and look at you. And you can do something about it, not because you want to, like you said about your husband, not because you want affirmation or compliments or praise, but because when you show up for yourself, people will see you for who you are, not who you're shoving behind an Eileen Fisher Moon Moo. So my whole thing is just show up for yourself. There's so much good for you happening in the world. And I think if you cover up, you're not showing up for yourself in a way that puts your best foot forward. You have so much to offer. I just don't want any woman to camouflage that.

Gabriella Espinosa 42:18

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be any grand gestures. I sometimes I just make sure I wear one bright color.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

It could be a bright color pair of underwear or I was gonna say I never wear bright colors, but it's it could be a lipstick, but it could, but the main thing is it makes you feel like you and feel happy. And if you don't know who you are, like if you're like I'm lost, this is where I think a lot of stylists are really good at helping women at this age and in midlife to really help redefine what needs to be happening. Like Roz Carr is in the back of the book. She's one of these women that just plays with clothes and color, but she used to work for anthropology forever. So you're not talking about Victoria Beckham prices here. And then another one is also in the back of the book, Tiffany Wendell. And she is queen of like vintage denim and a pair of ballet flats, and you don't have to spend, it's not about the, like you said, it's not about the money, but it's about what you're buying, feeling like you're putting yourself in a good light because it's gotta come from you, it can't come from someone else.

Gabriella Espinosa 43:36

Yeah, and again, going back to that question, I always asked women, how is it that you want to feel to really take a moment to just tune in that very embodied sense? Why is it that you want to feel and conjure up the sensations? It can be a texture, it can be a color, it can be feeling an emotion. Shape the way you show up in the world around that.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Oh my God, exactly. And you just mentioned you just mentioned texture and color. I don't love color in my wardrobe, but I love texture. So totally, and to each your own there. And that's why there's so much to choose from. And I do think people give up on themselves way too soon.

Gabriella Espinosa 44:18

So I was gonna ask you to complete this sentence. I feel most like myself when I'm wearing, but I think you've already told us it's the white blouse. You totally is there anything else?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

You know what? It's so funny. The white shirt is absolutely, but I love a pair of suit pants, but as much as I love a pair of vintage Levi's, I'm not in the middle. I don't know.

Gabriella Espinosa 44:41

On both. I think for any woman who's listening, who is stepping into their 50s, 60s, and beyond women who are reinventing themselves, rediscovering who they are, what is one thing you want them to take into their closet from this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 44:59

An open mind. If you narrow in on what does not work because it doesn't fit, because you feel like it's not age appropriate and all of that, you'll wear the same four things. And this is why you'll end up with yoga pants and a t-shirt every day. And instead you go in with an open mind and say, to your point, what do I want to feel like today? How do I want to show up today? And if you need help getting yourself there, do it.

Gabriella Espinosa 45:28

What comes to mind when I hear you say that is intention, right? Having intention. Yes. We talk a lot about that here.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Make yourself a priority. And women do not make themselves a priority enough. And it doesn't have to take a lot of time. I'm raising kids at home and just a little bit of intention.

Gabriella Espinosa 45:48

Yes, definitely. Christine, this conversation is everything I hoped it would be and more. Thank you so much for joining us today, for writing the book and for giving women language for something they've been feeling in their bodies for years. Tell us where we can follow your writing by your book, all the things.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Okay, thank you so much. Again, it was so nice to be here. So the book is clothes-minded fashionable essays about finding yourself. It's available on Amazon and Bookshop, but you can always find me. My platform is called Writing in Black and White, because it's about getting the facts about fashion and beauty through the lens of aging. And I'm on Instagram and Substack and writing in black and white. And in Instagram, there's always a link to buy the book there.

Gabriella Espinosa 46:38

Thank you so much, Christine, for joining us today and coming on to talk about your new book, Close Minded. I know women listening and reading your book will have so many takeaways for moving into a fashion forward life with intention.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Thank you so much for having me.

Gabriella Espinosa 46:56

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