98 | When Longing Becomes Your Lover: Understanding Romantic Obsession And Finding Your Way Back To Authentic Love With Amanda McCracken

Have you ever been so consumed by someone just out of reach that you checked your phone obsessively, fantasized endlessly, and somehow wanted them even more because they weren't fully available? There's actually a name for it — and in this episode of Pleasure in the Pause, Gabriella sits down with journalist, author, and limerence expert Amanda McCracken to talk about why so many of us get stuck chasing love instead of receiving it.

At the heart of this conversation is a truth so many midlife women are quietly sitting with: we are all longing to be truly seen. But real love only becomes possible when we believe we are worthy of receiving it.

Amanda McCracken is an award-winning journalist passionate about experiences that highlight the intersection of wellness, travel, and relationships. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, Vogue, National Geographic, Elle, NPR, Outside, ESPN, SELF, Runner’s World, and many others. She published her first article about longing in 2013, which led to additional articles featuring personal anecdotes and deep research and interviews with the BBC and Katie Couric. She is now considered a “limerence expert” and intimacy advocate. Her 2023 TED Talk, “How Longing Keeps Us From Healthy Relationships,” and her podcast, The Longing Lab, highlight how longing can become self sabotaging and shares how to change our patterns of longing. McCracken is also a part-time university instructor, massage therapist, triathlon coach, and competitive athlete. 

Highlights from our discussion include:

• What limerence actually is, how it differs from a crush, and why today's dating culture — apps, social media, hookup culture — makes it more common than ever.
• Why the brain gets hooked on the chase: the trigger, the behavior, and the dopamine reward loop that keeps so many of us stuck.
• The moment Amanda realized she was more comfortable longing for love than actually having it — and what that revealed about her deeper fear of intimacy.
• The practical tools that helped her break the pattern, including cognitive reappraisal, nervous system work, EMDR, and a nightly mantra her therapist gave her.
• What healthy, realistic love actually feels like in midlife — and why Amanda says she trusted her husband before she loved him.

CONNECT WITH AMANDA MCCRACKEN:

Website

My book: When Longing Becomes Your Lover

My podcast: The Longing Lab

Watch my TEDx talk

Read my NYT story on limerence

Instagram: @amandajmccracken

TikTok: @thelonginglab

CONNECT WITH GABRIELLA ESPINOSA:

Instagram

LinkedIn

Work with Gabriella! 

Full episodes on YouTube.

The information shared on Pleasure in the Pause is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before making any decisions about your health or treatment. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or Pleasure in the Pause.

Transcript

Introduction — What Is Limerence?

Gabriella Espinosa 0:27

Welcome to Pleasure in the Pause, a podcast dedicated to empowering midlife women to connect with their bodies, pleasure, and power in Perimenopause, Menopause, and beyond. I am your host, Gabriela Espinosa. Each week I sit down with leading medical experts, thought leaders, and trailblazers for bold, thought-provoking conversations that educate, inspire, and challenge the myths we've been taught about our bodies, aging, and sexuality. I also share solo episodes with evidence-based insights and real talk to help you feel informed, supported, and in charge of your health and pleasure in this season of life. Because your pleasure matters in and out of the bedroom. So take a deep breath, settle into your body, and let's begin. Hello, beautiful listeners. Welcome back to Pleasure in the Pause. If you've been following our Return to Her series, today's episode feels like a natural part of that conversation. Because at its core, my guest Amanda McCracken's story is about exactly that coming home to herself, to her worth, to the love she always deserved. Let me start by asking you: have you ever been completely consumed by someone who feels out of reach? Checking your phone for a message that never comes, hoping, dreaming, fantasizing, falling hard for someone emotionally unavailable, and somehow that only made you want them more. Or maybe you've been in a perfectly good relationship and still feel that pull towards someone else, someone you could endlessly imagine, but never quite have. If any of that sounds familiar, you are not alone. And there is actually a name for it. It's called limerence, what neuroscientists call person addiction, the state of obsessively ruminating on someone just out of reach, for whom you hold on to hope. It thrives on uncertainty, on anticipation. And in today's dating world where options feel infinite, but real connection feels increasingly rare, it has never had more fuel. Amanda McCracken is a journalist and author who dated over 100 men, held on to her virginity until she was 41, and spent a decade researching why so many of us get stuck chasing partners who are emotionally or physically unavailable, longing for the fairy tale while avoiding the very thing we say we want. She fell in love with strangers, men she could infinitely envision but never fully have. And she came to understand that longing had become a way to avoid her deepest fear, making an imperfect decision in a world that tells us perfect is always just one more swipe away. Her brand new book, When Longing Becomes Your Lover, is moving, funny, and at times achingly relatable, weaving together her personal story, a decade of research, and a path forward for anyone who has ever felt the pang of longing for love. In this conversation, we talk about limerence, why the brain gets hooked on the chase, and how to release the patterns that keep real love at arm's length. At the heart of Amanda's story, and I believe at the heart of so many of ours, is this we are all longing to be truly seen for who we are. But real love begins the moment we believe we are worthy of receiving it. So if you find yourself re-examining a relationship, stepping back into dating after years away, or simply wondering why love has felt just out of reach, this conversation is for you. I'm delighted to introduce you to Amanda McCracken. Welcome, Amanda, to Pleasure and the Pause. I'm delighted to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Congratulations on your new book, When Longing Becomes Your Lover. I have it right here. Such a beautiful cover. For someone who hasn't heard of it yet, how would you describe it? What is it about and who did you write it for?

Amanda McCracken 4:54

Yeah, thanks for that question. Basically, what I tell people, like my elevator pitch when I'm standing in line somewhere and they're like, oh, you're an author. What did you write about? And I say, Well, I wrote this book about what happens when you're more in love with falling in love than being in a healthy relationship. And a lot of people are like, oh gosh, yeah, I've been there, or ooh, that sounds like me or my daughter or whatever. And I would say, in some ways, it's like a love letter to my younger self of what I wish I could have had to read when I was in my late 20s, early 30s, trying to navigate dating and love and self-acceptance, really. So that's who it's for.

Gabriella Espinosa 5:32

And you have a list here in the book of who the book is for, for women who have gone through a similar journey as yours, longing for love in all the wrong places with all the wrong people, and really looking for the love that they really wish they had. We're gonna get into it. We're gonna get into your story. Let's go back to the beginning. You dated over a hundred men. You were a virgin, unapologetically a virgin, until the age of 41, 42, or 41. Yeah. And from the outside, that sounds like someone who was really putting herself out there. But you were, you say yourself, really protecting your virginity. You say here, holding on to my virginity and had become a protective mechanism in a sex-positive dating world that demands physical intimacy, but admonishes emotional intimacy where options seem plentiful, but sometimes ambiguous. Talk to us about that. What was actually going on for you during that time?

Amanda McCracken 6:39

Yeah, that is like a key line in the book. I've almost had that like memorized in my head. So you nailed it right there in terms of a great summary of it. And to a lot of people, virginity is like just this abstract term and the patriarchy has created it. But for me, I defined my virginity as not having sexual intercourse. And so in the dating world, like you described in that line, it felt like I wanted to keep something for myself as like sacred. I wanted to keep some skin in the game, literally and figuratively. But at the same time, I wanted to reserve something for what I imagined to be like this committed and loving relationship that I could still have out there. And it was really tough to find. And partially because I kept dating people who were unavailable in various ways. I could touch on the fact that I grew up in the 90s and in the Midwest. I went to church, was in like what people refer to as like purity culture. Like I had this ring ceremony we did in church where I made this commitment that I was gonna wait till marriage. And it was nothing that my parents pushed on me. This was a choice I made. My other friends were making it. And I'm like, this is cool. Yeah, I'm an athlete. I can, I'll wait. I'll sign, sign me up. I'm an endurance runner. I can last for a while. Besides, I wasn't like dating people at the time much. I was just hanging out with my girlfriends in high school. And then as you have new experiences, you continue to reassess those choices that you make, those decisions you make, the commitments you make earlier on when you're younger. And eventually I was like, okay, I'm at least gonna wait till I'm in a committed, loving relationship. And I do discuss in the book where I did find myself eventually in one of those. And when I said, yes, I'm ready to have sex, he said no. And he was deploying to, I can't remember if it was Iraq or Kuwait at the time. I reeled that back in and then went on this crazy dating spree for a decade.

Gabriella Espinosa 8:47

You describe yourself in the book as a saver. You kept all the Halloween candy until it went stale, gift cards until they expired. At some point, you realize you were doing the same thing with love. When did that click for you?

Why the Brain Prefers the Chase

Amanda McCracken 9:03

It was when I wrote this essay when I was like 35. I found this old letter from a college boyfriend that I had never really stopped loving. So it's one of those that first real heartbreaks, first boyfriend. I had saved a letter, an email he'd sent me that I had printed off that was questioning, why are you seem so sexual, but you why are you waiting? And I pulled that letter out like probably almost 10 years after he had emailed it to me and I'd printed it off. And I was like, man, I'm not sure if I know how to answer these questions. So it was in writing what ended up being this essay in the New York Times titled, Does My Virginity Have a Shelf Life? that I came to that, realized, I'm like, oh, I'm just saving this thing. Not the love necessarily, but my virginity. That was just one metaphor that I used in the essay to describe it.

Gabriella Espinosa 9:56

And the title, When Longing Becomes Your Lover, you write that longing can actually feel better than being in a real relationship. And that sounds counterintuitive. I was trying to come to grips with it, but I think many women will recognize that feeling. Why does the brain prefer the chase?

Amanda McCracken 10:18

I think it depends on how people are wired differently. So it's their brain, but it's also like maybe how they grew up or their background with the different parental figures, and that demonstrated whether you had to earn love or whether it was just given to you unconditionally. So I think there are lots of different layers to it. And what I learned, at least from brain science-wise, was that especially with my ADHD brain, it was really drawn to the chase and the anticipation of receiving love. Not necessarily receiving the love or the attention from the person that I was ruminating about, but just the anticipation of it and the thinking about it, strategically thinking about, oh, maybe if I go there, I'll see that person, not like stalking. I would concoct a text in my head that I may never even send. So it's almost like you have this relationship in your head with this person who doesn't even know you exist potentially. And maybe I'm jumping ahead, but that's some of what the brain science was about. Like that the longing, the anticipating is when you're getting that hit of dopamine. And what I learned with people who were, I was a late in life diagnosed with ADHD when I was 36. And what I learned too was when people with ADHD are really interested in something, they hyperfixate on it, right? They usually people think about ADHD people being really distracted, right? But when they're really interested in something, they hyperfixate on it. And that's what I would do with crushes. So it was like I found that hanging out in this place of longing, or what I later learned was limerence, obsessively ruminating about somebody I had put on a pedestal, I'd idealized, became more of a safe place to be than to actually pursue a healthy, stable relationship. And so then I was never gonna get into a place where I would say yes to sex again. So it became a safe place to protecting me from this intimacy that I like deeply desire, but also deeply feared.

Gabriella Espinosa 12:18

So let's get into the word that you just mentioned, which is at the heart of the book, limerence. I had never heard of it until I read about it in the book. Maybe most of our listeners have never heard of it. How do you explain it to someone who asks what limerence is about and what your book is about?

The Trigger, Behavior, and Dopamine Reward Loop

Amanda McCracken 12:37

A lot of people associate it with what's the difference between limerence and a crush. And I see it as there's like a spectrum. Like limerence, light limerence, let's say, can feel more like the crush you have when you're like 12 or something. And then the this intense limerence would be more about you can't stop thinking about that person. You're waking up in the middle of the night, you're checking your phone. Did they text you back? You're checking their socials. Are they hanging out with somebody else? What are they interested in? What kind of music are they interested in? Almost studying them, right? Like you're researching this person. So you almost have information to potentially, at least in your head, envision what your life might be with them. Or if you're more sort of like I was, that maybe you position yourself in a place where you might get their attention. And so limerence, more specifically from a psychological description, is the state of mind where you're obsessively ruminating over someone who you idealize that you don't see their flaws. It's a roller coaster of emotions, euphoria when you feel like they like you back, or there's some hint, just a hint, right? A clue. And people, limerence are really good at finding clues where there maybe aren't any, finding meaning where there isn't. Oh, he sent me a smiley face back. That means okay, I'm still in, there's still hope. And then grief also when you feel like either outright rejected, and then usually limerence goes away, or you just feel like this sense of grief when there's no response, for example. And the other really key thing with limerence is that it really feeds on hope and uncertainty. So if the uncertainty goes away and they say, Yeah, I'm not interested, right? Then usually, from what I've read and talked to experts, they say usually limerence goes away. But if there's still this fine mixture of hope and uncertainty, like this little cocktail blend, then it can still, like a fire, keep thriving. And since we live in this world with dating apps and social media and what else and hookup culture, right? All of those things create this sense of ambiguity or uncertainty and hope a little bit, right? There's still a little bit like because you maybe you just don't know how that person is feeling. So you keep that hope alive. I think that's why the term is picking up a lot more, and people are like, oh, that's me. Because our culture is like a breeding ground for it right now.

Gabriella Espinosa 15:10

I hear you explain that. I'm also remembering your TED talk, which you also did a few years ago about this very topic. And you had this very interesting description, this diagram, which explained the trigger, the behavior, and the reward of this loop. And you say that this longing or this limerence, the trigger was for you anxiety about your future. And so it triggered this behavior for longing. And the reward was dopamine, right? I think that encapsulates a lot of what we're finding, or a lot of what I hear right now with a lot of women who are navigating perhaps new relationships, the dating world, that okay, I want to find a partner, I want to find that lifelong partner. And so I'm going to hit the dating apps, and then you create this whole world of longing with all these different personalities. And then it's such a dopamine hit when they respond or when they don't respond. Can you walk us through that? I just found that such an interesting way of looking at it because that made it click for me.

Amanda McCracken 16:19

Yeah. And I think, you know, it could be anxiety about your future, or maybe even more commonly, a trigger, I think, is just boredom. And again, for those people out there with ADHD, yeah, like seeking the novelty right out in your environment might be that longing. And for me, even like researching these people, oh, I'm gonna learn more about these people, and would be fascinating. And then the trigger, like we said, might be boredom or anxiety, and then the behavior is literally the ruminating, the thinking about whether it's thinking about the person, thinking about your future together, going down the rabbit hole, social media, checking out all their pictures, trying to better understand them. And then the reward would be the dopamine you get from just from what I understand, especially talking to one of the neuroscientists I love speaking with was Jud Brewer. He wrote this book called Unwinding Anxiety, and he's got other books on habit building, and really it is a habit, right? Limerence is this habit you can't keep falling back into. And to turn your brain off and the wheels off can be really hard. I talk about using alcohol in my book to do that, just to like turn it off. But part of my story too was there was something about me that felt like this stable relationship that I didn't have to chase after, that I didn't have to long for, was not worth anything. It was boring because I felt like as I was growing up, nothing was worth having unless you earned it. Whether it was love, straight A's, I was a runner completing a longer race, a faster time, whatever it might be. And when you apply that to dating, it doesn't really work. Like, you know what I mean? It can be fun, it can give you that dopamine hit, but it just keeps you, I feel like, in that hamster wheel.

Gabriella Espinosa 18:09

And when you finally had the word for it, limerence, and maybe women who are listening right now, they're like, oh my gosh, that's me. And you look back at your own relationships. What did you see? What patterns became visible that you hadn't been able to name before?

Amanda McCracken 18:25

And actually, I did that TED talk before I even knew the word limerence. Then I was like, oh my gosh, that is exactly what I was talking about. That was my experience right there. So looking back on my patterns, I can see that I was experiencing limerence and staying in my head like that, even much younger than I think what people say early onset is. They say like around 15, 16, right? When you hear about high school crushes and stuff. So it almost like I say in the book, these crushes delineated my timeline. It almost became this organizing force where I had one crush after another each year. Like I could think, okay, sophomore year is this person, or eighth grade, it was this person. And it was entertaining. And I think especially for when I would get bored easily. Otherwise, pattern-wise, often I saw them as out of my league. So it was almost like if they would possibly choose me, how would that make me look? And instead of looking for someone that I considered more unequal, I always went for the hot, really popular guys. And I say go after, I didn't necessarily pursue them. I would just have the crush in my head. And then sometimes I did, I was more assertive. And one time I actually even showed up at this guy's restaurant and asked him out. I completely knew he was going to reject me. I don't know why I did this to myself. It was almost like I was trying to thicken my own skin, even in high school. And then as I got older, they were like emotionally unavailable. They'd say, I'm not really ready for a relationship. They were plenty happy to hook up, but weren't interested in a long-term relationship. Eventually, there were the guys that lived far away that could even really prolong the what-ifs. So travel became a bigger thing for me as in my 30s. I met that one guy in the Bahamas. Maybe I'll just plan another trip down there. And then I'd have three months of planning a trip that I could get a high off of, just thinking about the trip and meeting him. Which sounds absurd, maybe to some people who've never experienced limerants. But people out there who are listening and then like, oh crap, I do that.

Mantras, Nervous System Work, and Rewiring the Brain

Gabriella Espinosa 20:35

And you found a wonderful therapist. You explained, I mean, you have a whole chapter of your relationship with your therapist, Glenda, who said to you, I found very beautiful, forget believing in Superman. You have to believe you are worthy of and ready for a deeply intimate and loving relationship if it is to actually materialize to become real. When did that become apparent to you? And what did you do to move into that worthiness of being loved and loving and receiving love?

Amanda McCracken 21:14

That is the essential piece, I think, to quote unquote overcoming patterns of limerence. And it is so stinking hard because I think I did like cognitive behavioral therapy techniques and so on and so forth. But the key thing that I did, I think two key things was, which I talk about in the book too, was writing this mantra down that she brought up that was basically in the line that you shared there that I am ready for and worthy of a deeply intimate and loving relationship. And writing that down in my journal every night and often saying it out loud. And it's something I would do even before I would run races when I was younger. I would narrate the whole race before I would run it to prepare myself because I learned in sports psychology that works. So it was like, why wouldn't you do that if you're anticipating a happy, positive relationship too, to materialize? And there's some really interesting science out there on just the power of mantras. And even if you don't believe them at the time, that eventually your psyche will start to believe what you're writing down and you're saying. And then so much of limerence is about like the nervous system and training. Your body to recognize that anxiety is not love. The fact that being with the artist that I refer to in the book was my ultimate limerate object or L O, which is the person you put on a pedestal. For like 15 years, I would go in and out of relationships, but still, I still dream about this guy. Like, much to my husband's dismay, I don't really bring it up anymore, but I still he still showed some of my dreams. But I realize now it's just my subconscious still chewing on something that was unresolvable. And I think that's really important because people think, oh, I dreamt about them. That means they are my soulmate. No. So realizing that the anxiety that I felt with this guy and how it jacked up my GI system literally was a sign that this was not the kind of feeling that around somebody that would equate to a stable and healthy and loving, real love, authentic love relationship. I had to kind of train my body out of that. We did some work on that in therapy and trying to recognize that security and feeling safe was not boring. It was good.

Gabriella Espinosa 23:31

And you walk us through some other practical steps that you went through to help you gently move out of that state of feeling worthy. You you talk about the affirmations or the mantras. What were some other things that helped you?

Amanda McCracken 23:46

Something the psychologists called cognitive reappraisal, which was basically instead of seeing these men that I was crushing on for their potential behavior, seeing what they're actually demonstrating as being what is actually available, what the kind of communication that they are demonstrating is what they're going to be demonstrating in the future, too. So basically knocking them off the pedestal that you have put them on. It's not their fault, right? If some of these guys, I'm and I look back, I'm like, of course, the guy probably would have run a marathon for me because of the anxious anxiety he could probably sense. But just knocking them off the pedestal, seeing them for who they are, it's almost like you're doing this, right? You're bringing them to where the where they were to begin with before you put them up here and bringing yourself back up, feeling like you are worthy of the loving relationship you're seeking. Also, I talk in there about like purging your playlist, basically, or at least putting some of those songs that just melt you into melancholy, putting them aside for a while. Because I really do believe the more you listen to those kinds of songs, or like songs that are like a ballad for a certain relationship where you felt rejected, stop listening to that song.

Gabriella Espinosa 24:59

Oh my gosh, that was such so relatable. It reminded me of my younger years when I was a teenager, all those lovesick ballads. Oh my god, Lionel Richie. I love Lionel Richie's songs, do that for me. That longing and being the one and just living in that endless cycle of puppy love, I think, what was for me then. Yeah.

Amanda McCracken 25:21

I realized I would just kind of every time I would go for a run and listen to that same playlist again that reminded me of that guy and that time and that place. It was like hitting my hand with the hammer, what it just basically like diving back into that pool again and drowning. I think just being aware of those kinds of things, having accountability partners, friends that are like, and friends that understand. And if they don't understand, explain to them what's going on in your head, like what's really going on, and that you need somebody to be help you realize saying to somebody stop texting him, or he's never gonna respond to you, or why do you think he's ever gonna leave his wife, for example, right? Maybe isn't the best thing, but to say, hey, you deserve more than that, and then you deserve XYZ, or you are worthy of love. I think that is really important to have friends that bring you up to remind you of those sorts of things, as opposed to the negative talk.

Gabriella Espinosa 26:23

That's such great advice. So tell us about Dave. The real Dave, because you talk about Dave, the watchmaker at the very beginning, your imaginary Dave, but you're a real Dave after all that, the hundred dates, the longing, the therapy. What was it like when someone who was actually available showed up? What did that feel like?

Amanda McCracken 26:48

I was at a point I had done enough work that I didn't run right away, right? Those kinds of guys that were nice, that were really genuinely interesting, that also weren't like this beautiful, shiny Adonis, right? That were imperfectly beautiful, just like myself. Does that make sense? They weren't then then Dave's handsome, but he didn't have that look that I had always been drawn to, this kind of like Christopher Reeve, chiseled certain kind of look. But I was more willing to sit with that feeling of instead of running and feeling like it was boring or like I was being suffocated, was also another feeling I would have. And also there was just enough about him that felt mysterious. He had this long hair, he was also a runner. We actually knew of each other when we remet, I describe it, on this rooftop, this rooftop bar. We had a lot of mutual friends, and there was just enough curiosity, I think, about each other at the right time. It was just so much about it was really about timing. I feel like it was the right time, the right place, and and the right guy. I think all those pieces really have to be there, which is important, I think, to remember that you're not in control because it's so hard. It's like I would beat myself up so badly. And I think part of getting out of Limerence is self-compassion, too. Unless you're gonna let yourself off the hook, then you're never gonna pull yourself out of the trenches, so to speak.

Gabriella Espinosa 28:22

He was the one that said to you, mirrored to you, and said to you, you are worthy of love. Yes. I know you described that moment in the book so beautifully, and you said you cringed and you wanted to run. Yes, what was happening in that moment and what made you stay?

Amanda McCracken 28:40

And he had been with to my therapist, he had been with me to therapy at that point, with me, which is powerful, I think. That's so brave of you to invite him. Yeah, thank you. So he knew this was something I was wrestling with. So when he mirrored that to me, it yeah, it felt really icky, like almost like how dare you use that, twist it on me when that's something I really don't believe in. But I sat with it. I was so tired of my mistakes at that point, too, I think. And a huge piece in my story is my grandmother, who was getting she was over 100. When I met Dave, she it was right before her 100th birthday. So I feel like that was really key timing-wise, too, because there was something about her timeline ending that was very connected to my own that felt like I gotta stop making screwing around, making these mistakes. I had this loving guy right in front of me who was just great on so many different levels. And my friends would call him a unicorn. And I'm like, no, he's just securely attached. A lot of these securely attached guys got scooped up and married in their 20s. He was relatively newly divorced. And so I always tell him I would have scooped him up. Somebody else would have scooped him up earlier if I hadn't met him when I did. So I think I had just done enough work and continued doing that work when I was with him to receive his love. I think that's a word sometimes I refer forget. It was easy for me to chase after and want to give people love, but felt really uncomfortable to receive love from someone. And the fact that my grandmother was very quickly closing in on her life felt really significant. There was an urgency for me to stop screwing around.

Gabriella Espinosa 30:25

There's a beautiful part in the book where you rush to her bedside as you hear that she is in her last days, and you end up marrying him at her bedside three days before she died. Can you tell us about her in that moment?

What Healthy, Realistic Love Looks Like in Midlife

Amanda McCracken 30:46

She had grown up with me in the house. She moved with my parents when I was like eight. She was like a big sister in some ways, but she had just waited so long, it seemed like, for me to find the right guy. And there was so much urgency when she got pneumonia, and it was clear that it became clear she was not going to make it to the small October wedding we had planned. And it was only, I think it's important for listeners to know, it was only like I remet Dave in July 2018. We had our first date in September 2018. We were engaged by like the end of June 2019, or maybe it was first of beginning of July. And then we had planned this little wedding in October where we were hoping my grandmothers could make it, and his mother, because they were elderly, and they knew they couldn't travel out to Colorado for a bigger wedding we were planning. And she had said at one point, even when she got sick in August, she's I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving before this wedding. And she was like dead set on that. And then it became clear there was no way she was gonna make it to October. We both flew in and you wore my broke up in this box, my grandma, my mom's wedding dress that had been in this what like sealed, dry cleaned container for 45 years, and it fit me. And we did this ceremony. The nurses had the Pockabell's cannon on their phone, and it was just so bittersweet. It was so sweet ultimately, but it was also just like crushing because she was dying. But yeah, I always get choked up around her. But yeah, and when I walked right in, her job at the October wedding was to say the prayer. And as soon as I walked in that room, she began her prayer.

Gabriella Espinosa 32:29

Oh my gosh, that is such a beautiful story. And I've seen a picture of you with Dave mixed at your grandmother's bedside, I think in an article that you wrote. Such a beautiful article. I love that piece. Thank you so much for sharing that. You describe your love with Dave as somewhat redefined, not the fairy tale you once chased. For midlife women who are rethinking what love and partnership actually looks like at this stage. What does healthy, realistic love look like? I know it's different for everyone, but any advice as to what they should be looking for?

Amanda McCracken 33:05

I think one key thing that I've always said is that I trusted Dave before I loved him and before I felt like I was falling in love with guys, but no way did I trust them. I think that's a really key thing. One thing I've taught one of my friends that she said yes to some guy that I knew had wanted to propose to her for quite a while, and she is oh, probably in her early 50s now. And she finally was like, I guess XYZ isn't a deal breaker. And I'm like, there are always gonna be some, a few little red flags, right? There's nothing's gonna be perfect. But I think you get to a point where if you are more accepting of yourself as imperfect, then you're gonna be more accepting of other people and letting go and realizing certain things that are not deal breakers and they really shouldn't be, right? And other things that still should remain deal breakers and be really clear about what those are and don't bend them because somebody's hot and has a lot of money. It took me a long time to equate safety with a healthy, authentic love.

Gabriella Espinosa 34:10

I talk a lot about that here on the show, that feeling of safety. And I think it might be foreign for some of us if we haven't done the work of either therapy or CBT, or I love somatic practices that help you really tune into that feeling of what is safe in my body feel like. Any other practices that you recommend for women? I talk a lot about nervous system regulation here, but it's so essential. And it's there's not a trick.

Amanda McCracken 34:39

The mantras I can tell people, but I can't lead people as an author through a session of EMDR, for example. Going to a trained professional that's good with that eye movement. What is it called? EMDR. EMDR, yeah, yeah. I've tried that before.

Gabriella Espinosa 34:54

It's powerful.

Amanda McCracken 34:55

Yeah, it's oh man, it feels icky. I feel like it's hard work. Some of that stuff is really hard work, especially if you don't like feeling what's going on in your body. But that's when you know that it's really essential.

Gabriella Espinosa 35:07

And it all starts with you. It's you feeling safe with what you're carrying, all of it, all the messy bits, all the beautiful bits. It all starts with you feeling safe with yourself. And then I feel like once you're comfortable with that, then it's easier to step into a relationship and recognize when that feeling of safety is being nurtured or reciprocated by the person that you're with.

Amanda McCracken 35:31

And I think also, like it's really easy for people probably in if they're single, maybe they're divorced in they're in their 50s, 40s, 60s, and maybe they're still beating themselves up for a relationship that didn't work. I think it's really key to realize that new relationships and great new healthy relationships can still develop. My friend, I bring this up in the book by a Japanese friend that talked about like the three Superman theory instead of there just being one soulmate, and that she talked about how they're and who's a Murakami. He's the uh a Japanese author is really famous, and he talks about this in one of his stories too. And I feel like that's such a I don't necessarily agree with the whole soulmate theory, but thinking that potentially there are at least three out there that that are available to you is a lot nicer than just one. I think self-forgiveness is really important for moving on and finding a healthy relationship.

Gabriella Espinosa 36:28

I feel midlife has a way of holding up a mirror, right? Some of the same patterns we carried in our 20s and 30s or 40s may still be there, just harder to ignore. Do you think there is something about this season of life that actually makes it easier to finally see and break these patterns?

It Is Never Too Late for Love

Amanda McCracken 36:49

I think you maybe you have more of a sense of potentially urgency, like with my grandmortality, perhaps you have parents that are aging, grandparents that have passed or whatever. And so I feel like maybe that's not the most positive thing to say, but that might maybe kind of lights a fire under you to be like, I don't have forever out here. Choices really aren't infinite, you know, despite what apps make you feel like they are. So perhaps that, and you just have, I think, more wisdom, I hope, at this point in your life. Another thing I forgot to mention about Dave is that I remember he was he would still take me to the airport, like even after a month after we'd been dating, long after, like even when Harry met Sally, when she brings that up and says, Oh, he I think it was Harry that says something about, oh, he took you to the airport, you must be about a month into dating. Probably pretty soon he'll stop doing that, or something like that. But I think there were just things, and I kept there are certain points where I kept thinking, Oh, what's he want from me? But he literally he was so patient and waiting. And I feel like a lot of people out there that aren't that patient, especially when it comes to sex. Like he he was just like, I'll wait, you're worth waiting for, which is really remarkable for somebody to say. Be patient with me getting to a place where I felt comfortable.

Gabriella Espinosa 38:06

Yeah, that's so beautiful. And I think for anyone who's listening, rethinking old stories about love and desire. Maybe some listeners are dating again after divorce or loss, some in longer relationships, recognizing some of those older patterns for the first time. What do you most want them to hear? You say that love is worth waiting for. Any other advice that you would give those women?

Amanda McCracken 38:33

It's not too late. I feel like that's man, that is having the thought that it's too late, I've messed up, I missed my chance, is you cannot think that way. It's never too late, I think, to like work on intimacy too, and to get better at it with someone, even if you've been with them for a long time. And I met Dave when I was 40, and I got pregnant when I was 41, had my daughter when I was 42, and he was like 40, 47, 48. So, you know, we met each other, and I feel like that's fine. Like it's my story. My mom said at one point, don't you wish you could have met him earlier and had some time before you had your daughter? Of course. But that's not how the story went. I feel like I wouldn't be here in the sweet spot unless I had been through the experiences I went through. So when I say I wrote this book for my younger self, in a lot of ways, I know her. She would probably have still made the same mistakes. Reading this in her 20s, I'm not sure if she would have believed it, honestly.

Gabriella Espinosa 39:36

So, for many women who find love and relationships later in life in their 40s, 50s, but they're also having to navigate hormonal changes, moving into perimenopause and menopause. Has that become an issue for you in your relationship? And how do you have those conversations with Dave?

Amanda McCracken 39:57

Our relationship was always built on like trust and communication. I think that continues to be important that we communicate about how we're feeling and accepting of each other where we're at. And he's also going through changes himself as 50 plus year old male. I'm more of a perfectionist. We both have a little perfectionist streak in ourselves, but I guess I learn to be if I'm more accepting of myself, I'm more accepting of him. And so I guess we have to like cut each other a little more slack than maybe we would in our 30s, or just have a little more grace for each other in the space we're in, like physically. So things are changing and just accepting of that and communicating about that.

Gabriella Espinosa 40:45

Yeah. So beautiful. Thank you for that. We're getting near the end of our conversation, and there's so much more I wanted to ask you, but I want to just do a little bit of a lightning round set of questions that I think would be fun to end on a high note. Let's start with, besides your book, what's a book that changed how you see love or intimacy?

Amanda McCracken 41:09

Of course, there's Dorothy Tenov's book is called Love and Limerence, and she's the one that coined the term in the late 70s. So that's available, I think, to anybody. I loved this book that a lot of people haven't heard of, I think, called Dreams of Love and Fateful Encounters. Ethel Person, I think is her name. And I think it was written in the 80s, but it's so chock full of really interesting psychology. She was a psycho Freudian psychoanalyst, and it's got cool, it's got literature and music woven through it and cinema, and it just helps you see love from different angles and plot lines and so on and so forth. So I loved that too, because I love being able to see how I can apply those sorts of things to my own life.

Gabriella Espinosa 41:53

One thing you know now about love that you didn't know at 25. And I can't, it's hard to put that into words. That was my next sentence. A completed sentence. Real love feels if you can think of one word.

Amanda McCracken 42:08

I guess the word that comes to me is secure. Yeah, my husband was giving me like this really strong. I don't like somebody patting me on the back or like rubbing their fingers down. That creeps me out. Everybody has different nervous systems, but he gave me this big, strong bear hug this morning as I was looking out the window, and he said something about I remember we were on that train through New York and you said how much you love this. And I'm like, that was six, seven years ago. I was like, that was pretty amazing. He still remembered that. So maybe that's also key is somebody remembering how love feels for you too, like you remembering it, but also I think that was really cool.

Gabriella Espinosa 42:43

Yeah, so beautiful. Finally, where can people find you and your book?

Amanda McCracken 42:49

Thank you for asking that too. So my website is www.amandajmccracken.com. And my book, you can get it all like major booksellers. It's on Amazon, of course, and Bookshop and Barnes and Noble and several bookstores. And my Instagram is Amanda J. McCracken, TikTok, The Longing Lab. And the Longing Lab is the name of my podcast as well, where I explore different topics on longing. I think that should, I think that should cover it.

Gabriella Espinosa 43:22

Oh, and your TED Talk. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's on your website too. Your TED Talk. You have some wonderful articles. You've been published in the New York Times and numerous other places. I love doing a deep dive into all your shorter pieces. Thank you so much, Amanda. This has been such a rich and insightful conversation. I've learned so much about something that I had no idea about, the word limerence. And really just reinforcing this idea that I deeply believe in that, but the core, no matter how different our stories and experiences are, we are all longing for that deep human connection and to love and be loved, which is just core to the human experience. So thank you so much for sharing your story so bravely and so openly.

Amanda McCracken 44:10

Yeah, thank you, Gabriella. Thanks for reading my book and such thoughtful questions as well.

Gabriella Espinosa 44:15

Thank you for joining me for this episode of Pleasure in the Pause. Want to help me spread more pleasure in the world? Please hit subscribe to the podcast and share this episode with a friend, a sister. Or any woman you care about. Because when we share these conversations, we remind each other we are not alone. Together, we create ripples of empowerment and support that reach far beyond ourselves. Your support means the world to me. Thank you. Remember, your pleasure matters. The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult your healthcare provider before making any decisions about your health or treatment. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the host or pleasure in the pause.