Building the Film Industry in Oklahoma: Matt Payne

Summary

In this episode, Matt Payne shares his journey from a struggling student to a successful figure in the entertainment industry, highlighting his transition into travel journalism and his efforts to build the film industry in Oklahoma. He discusses the importance of understanding the business side of creativity, the balance between art and commerce, and how personal experiences shape storytelling. Matt emphasizes the value of teaching as a means to master one's craft and demystifies finance and accounting for creatives. He reflects on the role of pain in creativity and the humor found in life's challenges, concluding with insights into his current projects and future directions.

Takeaways

• Matt Payne's journey began with a summer movie camp.
• He transitioned from writing TV shows to travel journalism.
• Building the film industry in Oklahoma is a key focus.
• Understanding business is crucial for creatives.
• Financial acumen empowers creative decision-making.
• Teaching enhances mastery of one's craft.
• Pain and humor are intertwined in storytelling.
• Creatives must balance art with commercial viability.
• Demystifying finance helps artists thrive.
• Trusting the process can lead to new opportunities.

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Transcript

Matt Payne (00:00.145)
Yeah, I'm in my parents' you're recording. Let's go. Yeah, I'm in my parents' house. We're redoing a house we just bought. so things look a little old school. It's because I'm at my mom and dad's.

Christian Brim (00:02.99)
Well no, that's fine. Randy lettered it out.

Christian Brim (00:17.166)
Perfect. Well, it's audio only, so... Nope. Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Boynton Beach, Florida. No idea where that is. I'm assuming it's by the water. Joining me today...

Matt Payne (00:19.807)
perfect. Well, then let's not worry about that.

Christian Brim (00:45.228)
The eponymous Matt Payne of Matt Payne Media. I've been wanting to use that word for a while, but I could never work it in. But today it works. So Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt Payne (00:55.463)
Thank you. Appreciate it. Excited to be here.

Christian Brim (00:58.392)
So your journey is a fascinating one. I normally give people like two minutes to summarize, but you might get five minutes. tell us for the listeners who don't know who Matt Payne is, who Matt Payne is.

Matt Payne (01:15.269)
Sure. So, my name is Matt Payne and I've worked in entertainment for 25 plus years. In the last five, I kind of moved into a business executive role, but for most of my life, I've been a creative. My journey started here in Oklahoma in the year 2000 as a

failing student at the University of Oklahoma when at Oklahoma City Community College, there was a gentleman named Gray Fredrickson who started a basically movie camp for adults one summer. And I took this movie camp that was aimed at like really training workforce and, and realized like, Hey, I could work in film and that changed my life.

I found a purpose and with that purpose kind of went back to OU, was presidential on a roll and became Grey's intern and Life's Sir really started taking off. But what I ultimately wanted to do is I wanted to tell stories, you know, and I wanted to work in an environment where I was around people telling stories. So I moved to Los Angeles right after college and I started off on a show called 24, if you remember that show with Kiefer Sutherland.

Christian Brim (02:32.334)
Oh, I was a big fan. Jack, Jack, yeah.

Matt Payne (02:35.399)
Yeah, Jack Bauer. So I was I got lucky to get a set PA job. The day I arrived in Los Angeles, I went to visit a family friend. I was asking for advice and he offered me a job, which worked great. And that was like the third episode ever of the show. And it turned into this, you know, really revolutionary show in so many ways. But got to know the writers of that show pretty well. And they

Christian Brim (02:48.174)
Nice.

Matt Payne (03:03.891)
encouraged me to work at an agency so I could learn the kind of business side of the entertainment industry, which I think is really important. So I worked at a company called Endeavor and then went to work for a show runner of a show called Without a Trace, which was a CBS show. So I spent several years on that show where I ultimately had the opportunity to get it promoted to a writer. All that, that whole time I was kind of around the writing staff.

And then went on to write shows, a show called Defenders, with Jim Belushi and Jerry O'Connell, a show called Vegas with Dennis Quaid and Michael Chiklis about the origin of Las Vegas. And then a lesser known show on TNT called Memphis Beat starring Jason Lee and Alfre Woodard. But so I did all that. And then at the same time, kind of when these shows would get canceled, I'd have this side hustle of travel journalism. So I was always passionate about travel, always trying to find...

ways to see the world. love how travel sort of influenced the way I thought about writing. And so I had this unique opportunity, right, for the Washington Times doing travel. And what that essentially meant was I would say, hey, do you have anywhere that's looking for a travel writer? And this woman would call me and say, yeah, do you want to go to Malaysia next week? And I would hop on a plane and go to Malaysia. I did that enough times that I had this really interesting moment of, and I became really passionate about it. And I had this moment where

I realized I could either stay and write TV shows where I'd make it pretty predictable and reasonable living, kind of trying to figure out how we're gonna solve the case this week, or I could spend my life traveling around the world, going to really cool places and meeting really cool people and eating cool food. And Anthony Bourdain was my hero. And so I thought, hey, let's do that. The decision I had to make though was as it turns out,

And you may tell me different Christian, but I don't think you can make a whole lot of money being a travel journalist. There's not a, not a ton of money in it. And so we moved back to Oklahoma, moved back to Oklahoma in 2015, which is really the life-changing thing for me. And my media career really began. So when I got back here, I started teaching at Oklahoma city university got to really fell in love with like watching students tap into their own potential.

Christian Brim (05:03.512)
Probably not.

Matt Payne (05:27.567)
And at the same time, I started making documentary films for a PBS affiliate, OETA here. And there were kind of two lessons that happened. The first was one, in making small documentaries with one other person, I was able to tell really cost-effective stories, frankly, significantly better stories than I was able to do in Los Angeles. So even though there I had 10 writers and a $3 million in episode budget here for whatever my overhead was, I was able to make things that I thought were really powerful.

Um, which was enlightening and then, uh, teaching what I realized kind of macro in Oklahoma was that we had all these young kids that I saw myself in that were leaving. Um, they come to me and they, you know, capstone and the really smart ones, particularly the really, uh, entrepreneurial ones would come and say, do I have to stay here? And I can, I've been in LA for 15 years, getting the shit kicked out of me. I'm like,

Christian Brim (06:08.322)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (06:20.465)
I wish she could, you they wanted to be with their family. They wanted to be in the state that they loved. The cities on the rise, like Dead Center Film Festival and all this. But I'd say, no, you got to move to Atlanta or you got to move to LA. So I did all that for, and continued to do a lot of photography. So then I expanded into photography with my travel journalism. So I had this like Indiana Jones life where I was kind of, you know, working at at Oklahoma City University.

had my college office and then I'd get on a plane and go to the Galapagos Islands and take pictures and hang out with wild people all around the world. And then I'd come back and teach and off I go again. But then there was this last kind of thing that happened was, you know, over the course of time, like I'd learned how to do all these different types of media, photography, documentaries, screenplay, writing, journalism, but I never, didn't know much about business at all.

and I realized like, if I'm going to be successful, I've got to learn how to like actually market myself as a product, and start thinking like a businessman. So I had a very close friend of mine's guy named Christian Kennedy, and he was an oil and gas guy looking to diversify into some different sectors, really passionate about Oklahoma city. and he wanted to invest in media and we started talking right before COVID and, he w he's, he said, how can we grow the film industry in Oklahoma? And at this point I was.

really involved in Dead Center, all the teaching. And, you know, I think what he expected me to say was we should, like, maybe you could fund my film, you know, fund a passion project. But what he, what we landed on was like, that really ultimately doesn't benefit Oklahoma, what would change the Oklahoma landscape here would be to invest in infrastructure. And that means sound stages. So

Christian Brim (07:52.663)
Right.

Matt Payne (08:08.783)
Again, knowing nothing about business, I partnered up with an actress named Rachel Cannon who just moved back. She knew a little more about business. And we sat down with Christian. said, look, if you can find something to repurpose, I'll fund it. Repurpose into sound stage is all funded. But I need to know kind of what the plan is. And so in kind of looking at the landscape here, we knew we needed an incentive. We knew we needed a workforce. We knew we had these component parts. Killers of the Flower Moon was coming to Oklahoma. So we knew.

There was going to be this huge economic impact with that film that we were going to see. And Oklahoma City Community College, if you'll remember, I've talked about that in my opening, had turned into, from this little summer film camp, into a top 25 film school in the country. It's the only community college-based film program in that top 25 with millions and millions of dollars in equipment investments. Unbelievable program. So we have these two things.

And so we started looking at, what could be converted? Cause the cost of sound stages is a lot of money. And so we looked at all around the state at different warehouses and kind of empty grocery stores and things. And there was nothing where the economics made sense. However, Oklahoma city had just built a new arena, sorry, a new convention center, South of Paycom. And the old convention center was going to get locked up.

Christian Brim (09:08.192)
Right.

Matt Payne (09:32.109)
They had no idea what they were gonna do with it. It's a huge footprint on the very, very valuable piece of property in the central plant for the city was underneath it. So they couldn't tear it down. And so we looked at it and said, hey, this could be a movie studio. like, then the next day, Rudy Gobert got COVID out of Thunder Game and the world kind of went into panic and Mayor David Holt was, we talked to him about it. He's like, yeah, if you can figure out how to make this thing work, the city will work with you.

Christian Brim (09:41.109)
Right.

Matt Payne (10:00.733)
So, you know, summing it up, we were able to do that, turned it into a sound stage, leveraged the economic projections of the sound stage to then increase the incentive at the state from 8 million to 30. And with that money and the workforce that had been developed through Oklahoma City Community College mostly, we were able to bring Tulsa King and Twisters to Oklahoma. And along the way started an intern program that we put about 100 kids through it.

spun that up into a creative agency. We work with all kinds of really cool organizations all across Oklahoma. And then we also began investing in high school kids. So we had access to semester funds and had the unique opportunity to invest that money in Oklahoma City Public Schools. So we have six different, we have a program called Scissortail Studios.

with more than a thousand kids in it that are in six different urban core schools. So we're training kids starting in ninth grade and some of our most underserved communities are thinking about film as a viable profession, starting at about age 14. And rather than thinking they have to move to Los Angeles like I did, they just have to go to Oklahoma City Community College, which for the most part can be paid for. And then they can work in our film industry. So...

That's kind of my back story and then the last piece is less exciting. Having just come back from an impromptu Thunder Finals game in Indiana, the bad news was they need a new arena. And so the only footprint in Oklahoma City that worked was our building. so since it's been, we've moved out and so we've kind of lost that opportunity, but I think we've built enough traction. We're pretty close to hitting a critical mass here where

The industry will thrive anyway and I'm in the process of redefining my role in it.

Christian Brim (11:58.671)
That's that is a very interesting life story so far but you're young you'll you'll you have more to put more to put down. Do you do you see Oklahoma City building a soundstage somebody?

Matt Payne (12:10.483)
Yeah, I hope so.

Matt Payne (12:19.359)
Yeah, for sure. mean, there are other sound stages. So the Cherokee Nation has a really impressive campus they use mostly for their own production, but that's in Owasso. And then Richard and Amy Janes have Filmmakers Ranch out in Spencer, which is really impressive. Richard's talked about building sound stages there. And we've talked about other ways you can get into sound stages.

Footprint of that Cox Convention Center was so massive. And they're really, you know, they're capital heavy up front. mean, it's a lot of money up front to get those things up and running and it's...

Christian Brim (12:57.87)
Yeah, it's a real estate play of sorts. mean, you're creating a rental.

Matt Payne (13:03.42)
It is.

It's 100 % real estate. It's just a very specialized form of commercial real estate. But it's a critical part in so many ways of making film work. we're visiting still with the city about ways that we might be able to get into some other kind of partnership. But those conversations are early. But I do believe it's really necessary. I've got a partner named Hagen Hunter who's an amazing stage operator.

Christian Brim (13:10.54)
Yeah.

Matt Payne (13:32.999)
who's chomping at the bit to get back into it. And, you know, there's certainly a lot of excitement around film. So we're hoping to be able to keep it going in some fashion.

Christian Brim (13:42.735)
So I want to go back to a statement you made, like you said, you needed to learn the business aspect of it. And you and I have had conversations about your financial ignorance. I'm going to share the story. If you don't want it, we can edit it out. But when we first met virtually, you admitted that when you heard the statement P and L,

You didn't know if it was P and L or P in L and you had to go look, look that up, which I said, that's perfect. That needs to be our next Cousy. because that, that just cracked me up as an accountant. I never even thought like someone would not know what that, I mean, you know, I get it. So, but I think it spoke to your lack of financial education. So

Do you feel now going through the experiences that you have that you have a better understanding of the money side of things?

Matt Payne (14:46.695)
Totally. Yeah, yeah. There's no quite. I mean, we had to learn it. We were given the opportunity. We had to really jump at this opportunity to get the Cox Center. At first, it was more romantic. And I always felt limited throughout my life, not knowing much about business. They're just in conversations. But when it turns to money, I just kind of be quiet.

Christian Brim (14:57.645)
Right.

Matt Payne (15:17.331)
back out. Like I thought of myself as a creative and a guy with wanderlust. I just don't want to think about it. I regret that a ton, but yeah, as we got into it, part of the reason why I love travel writing and I like storytelling is I like learning. And I like learning anything once I understand why it's important. And suddenly we were like, okay, well, here's the amount of square footage we have. If we rent it for X dollars, you're going to make X amount of money. And like suddenly you're like, well,

Christian Brim (15:36.088)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (15:46.387)
shit, like that would change my life, you know, and, and, and at the same time by if we could make that business work, you have the sort of the success that comes with taking over a piece of real estate like that makes doing creative stuff easier. And where would the shift really begin to happen for me was like, as I began to understand business more and more, I mean, I went through an executive Academy MBA program at this point, you know, like, I I feel as comfortable, confident about it.

Christian Brim (15:48.929)
Right.

Christian Brim (16:02.798)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (16:13.272)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (16:16.283)
I still have insecurities around it, but you realize like having financial acumen actually is the most creatively empowering thing that you can do. Because it gives you control and you understand the sandbox you're playing in and the resources at hand. And once you have like a firm understanding of what those things are, you can make a pro, you're more intentional about the product you make. And then the other side of it is the sales.

Christian Brim (16:27.896)
Yeah.

Matt Payne (16:45.555)
part, know, and like really like a big thing that changed for me, you know, and I think so many artists think about their art first, you know, like no one is thinking about the value proposition of like, okay, this guy's gonna give me $5,000 for this painting. What does he expect to get out of that $5,000? Like he worked really hard for it. What are we exchanging here? And artists for me, and many, it's just like, why I just want to make this thing, or I just want to tell this story or take this picture.

Christian Brim (16:54.531)
Yes.

Christian Brim (17:06.083)
Right.

Matt Payne (17:15.355)
And suddenly you're like, okay, what am I gonna do with this? How am I gonna exchange this for money with somebody so that I can keep doing it? And that was really empowering. And it shifted, know, in some ways, you know, I think I got a little over first co-CEO and then CEO. It's a rewiring of your brain. You know, you're taking, you know,

Christian Brim (17:24.534)
Yes.

Matt Payne (17:41.181)
serotonin and dopamine and reallocating it in different categories and sort of shutting off the dreamier part of your brain. It's really hard to be like, okay, shit, are we gonna make payroll? And then immediately be like, but here's how we're gonna tell this beautiful, powerful story about this. It's hard to do both, but I think I'm learning to thread the needle and I certainly am happier as a person knowing that

Christian Brim (17:43.906)
Yes.

Christian Brim (17:55.649)
Right.

Matt Payne (18:07.559)
Like just having an understanding of finance and business in general. there's a tremendous amount of confidence that comes with it. And it's like anything. I mean, to me, became like, you if I was going to Italy, like I would want to learn Italian. I would want to understand the regions and the history and the history of the Medici family and all those things. Business is no different. I want to understand it because it's how the world works. And in understanding that, you can tell better stories.

Christian Brim (18:35.702)
Yeah, I think that's the thing I harp on. I write about it in the book is the freedom that financial literacy gives you as a creative. Like there's an aversion to creatives. You know, and I think it stems from that. Like I just want to make what I want to make and I don't really want to

worry about selling it. I mean, that was the exact conversation I had with my daughter, who is a figurative oil painter. When she started on her career, I was asking those business type questions and she's like, I don't know. I don't, I don't care about that. but you know, when she moved to Hollywood, she was, she approached a, gallery that said, well, yeah, sure. We'll, we'll show your stuff.

But here's the deal. You got to lower your prices by 50%. And she's sitting there like, okay, I'm going to lower my prices by 50%. And then you're going to take another 50 % for being in the gallery. She goes like, no, absolutely not. But she had the financial awareness, you know, having me as a father that she could make that and say, like, I'm not going to do this just for the exposure for the experience, whatever.

And, and basically become your employee pumping out stuff for, you know, that I don't really want to make. So I can make a little money. And I think that is, is something that all creative entrepreneurs have to address sooner or later. Like you you've, you've got to decide, are you going to be a true artist and potentially starve?

Matt Payne (20:25.651)
.

Christian Brim (20:34.922)
Or are you going to embrace what you need to become a business owner and an entrepreneur, which is the financial and the business side of it. And the sad part about it is that I see, and it's like this gallery owner that pitched my daughter, there are a ton of people out there very willing to take advantage of creatives.

Matt Payne (20:46.299)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:03.66)
whether that's in music or film or whatever, because there's a line behind them. If my daughter says, no, that's fine, because there's some other young budding artists that will say yes, and they don't care. They'll just screw you.

Matt Payne (21:17.415)
Okay.

Matt Payne (21:25.915)
Yeah, yeah, it's, you're right. And it's, w when you bring up, gallery artists, I mean, or sorry, galleries, you know, in LA, you know, you had managers and you had agents and, labels. And it's funny, I was talking to a pretty successful recording artist, a couple of months ago, and, he, told me that he had made, you know, six ish million dollars.

Christian Brim (21:39.265)
Right.

Matt Payne (21:53.371)
gross and, he hadn't, he is somebody's like, didn't give a shit about business. You know, I didn't think about it. And at, his first year and he netted like $600,000. and that's because it was, here's an agent, here's a manager, here's a lawyer, here's multiple lawyers. Here's an next thing, you know, like, I mean, you know, you grow six, six million bucks. It feels big, but it's not. And

Christian Brim (21:53.934)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (22:18.317)
the smarter you get, the more you understand business, you're smart no matter what.

Christian Brim (22:23.116)
Yeah. Well, I mean, you see that with professional athletes going, going back to the thunder and paces. mean, like, you know, they get managers and agents and, they don't, you know, they end their career and they don't have, mean, how many times you read about, know, an ex professional athlete, you know, busted or bankrupt, you know, Mike Tyson is a great example, you know, I mean, like the, the, people that have talent in whatever it is.

If you don't understand the business side of it, someone's going to take advantage of you. That's the reality.

Matt Payne (22:56.563)
Yeah, and like I you know one of the things for me in LA was like there's this power dynamic around it and like when you're starting it doesn't matter if you're an athlete what it is like you're a hundred percent dependent on whomever that business person is it's gonna take ten to fifteen percent of your money to make all of your decisions and If you don't have the the ability to say What again back to value? Okay? I've been giving you ten percent, but like I need to know

Christian Brim (23:03.458)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (23:15.374)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (23:25.061)
why you get that 10 % and not this guy and this guy and this guy. And like, I'd like for your 10 % to be a million bucks. So how are you going to make me 10? Let's talk through it. And like, if you can approach it that way, as opposed to like the way I was with an agent manager, I'm afraid to call them because I don't want to bug them because I don't want to get dropped. You know, like, I mean, I think back to like, you know, the agent and manager that I had, like I was terrified constantly of nagging them or like I remember it because I always wrote on procedural shows.

Christian Brim (23:33.602)
Yes.

Christian Brim (23:43.423)
Right.

Matt Payne (23:54.963)
And like, if you think about like writing the writing landscape now, there's not a series that has more than eight episodes or 10. Um, so there's a, there's more, so there's more content, but there's way fewer writers and there, and it's typically like one or two, you know, it's one guy kind of writing the whole thing or what we got, what I got a girl. Um, but for me, like, was like, I was writing these cop shows, which I, I, I just did, I took advantage of the opportunities that were in front of me.

Christian Brim (24:01.324)
Right. Very rare.

Matt Payne (24:23.335)
you know, and the fastest way to write was like the show runner that I worked for was the guy that hired the writers and I was the guy that read the scripts that he would then read to make his decision. so for me, it was like, you know, I thought I was going to write comedy films, you know, and you'd try that for a while and you see how close you almost get to writing. But again, you're like, my God, please just buy my script. I'll do anything as opposed to like, here's the thing I have this product. I need you to sell it. Here's how I want it done.

But you approach everything from a place of desperation and that only you only do it. Certainly self-confidence has something to do with it, but not understanding the value of the product you create and the power that you hold as the guy creating the item that has the value. Like you're in the fucking driver's seat. You know what I mean?

Christian Brim (25:05.622)
Right, right. Right, yeah, the agent has nothing to sell if you don't produce, right?

Matt Payne (25:13.915)
Right. Totally. so then it just becomes not giving it. And that's hard when you're a sensitive artist and you're dialed into emotions and your product is vulnerability and beauty so often. It's hard to then be like, all right, here's this thing about like how I dislike this aspect of my childhood. I need you to sell it. This is what I expect to make. is what, you know, it's Matt Payne, the creative and Matt Payne, Inc. are two different things.

Christian Brim (25:36.14)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:39.629)
Well, you see that with like, the, the example that comes to me is like recording artists or musicians and they, you know, become popular and, then they're like tied to that. Like their creativity is diminished by their success because, know, everybody that, you know, from the fans to, you know, that are paying the bill.

to all the people along the line, the people that are distributing it and producing it and the agent and all of this, they don't want that money train to go away either, right? And so they're like, no, do more of this. And the artists like, well, I don't want to do that anymore, right? Like I want to go do, yeah. so I think, and this is what I write about in the book is shifting the paradigm. So.

Matt Payne (26:18.685)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (26:33.996)
So thinking not of it as an either or, I either make money or I don't make money, is looking at your creativity as the way to make money. Like that is the leverage, that is the power. And you don't have to use your creativity in a certain way. Like if you're a visual painter or if you're a videographer or a writer,

Matt Payne (26:45.661)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (27:03.566)
That's a skill, right? But your power is not in that skill. That's just the skill that you learned. Your power is in your creativity. And so how can you use that creativity in a different way that still engages you, that still you want to do, that stokes that passion, but you're not limited to a skill?

Matt Payne (27:15.315)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (27:30.791)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, that's that's really well stated. It is that balance as a creative. It's it is just kind of hard to find it, you know, and they're like, I think about I mean, if I leaned into like, I'm going to be a comedy writer, you know, and that's what I set out to do. Coming of age, can be this is part of the.

Christian Brim (27:52.716)
Are you funny?

Christian Brim (27:57.583)
Show me, prove it, prove it.

Matt Payne (28:00.037)
man, when I tell the real Prairie Surf story, it's pretty hilarious. No, that's right, that's right. But if I would have just said, this is what I am, and I do think I was good at it. I mean, I got signed by an agent and a manager. It's just hard to sell stuff. But I was like, for me, I think where I found the most success and how I got to where I am today, the better parts of it.

Christian Brim (28:06.862)
But you didn't write that.

Christian Brim (28:19.342)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (28:28.275)
Um, was because I was like, okay, shit. I can make money. If I write these procedural shows, I'm going to go from making assistant wage to writer's wage. I'm in the WGA. I've got pension, health and welfare. Like I've got, now I've got traction now. And like you're, you've ingrained yourself into this, but then like suddenly at that point, like if you want to do other things, you have to do that. And the other thing, like, and I think a lot of writers are creatives in general are like,

Well, I got this job working at this creative agency or I've got this job as this, therefore I am this. And like for me, I was always like, well, I mean, I like this travel writing thing is cool. I'm going to pursue this. This thing will either make this thing better or obsolete and this will become the thing. So I'm going to put my trust in like what I know to be the best product and the most creative product to develop myself. But the thing is like, kind of like I had to make the decision to be, to take no money as a travel.

photographer and really writer first, but like that's how I got to where I am today. Versus if I would have just been like, I'm a comedy writer. I don't think I ever would have made it in LA. It just wouldn't work. So it's just that ability to go like, and I see this so often with creatives are like, but I want to be this and you're like, okay, what? Great. But that doesn't mean you can make a living doing that. And like, yeah.

Christian Brim (29:29.91)
Mm-hmm, yes.

Christian Brim (29:35.244)
Right. Right.

Christian Brim (29:50.329)
That's correct. Yes. yeah, I mean, my daughter is a great example of that. like, you know, she started as a figurative oil painter and she did that and she had success at it. She's been in many galleries across the country. She had modest financial success. She could live on her own. Like she could support herself.

Matt Payne (29:56.007)
Yeah, mean, go ahead.

Christian Brim (30:20.29)
but then she was like, okay, well, what else can I do that I enjoy? So she teaches painting. She, does like private classes for companies, like, you know, she'll come in and do a, a, you know, as, as like a team building event, right. she's, started partnering with another artist and they're doing murals. Right. So, you know,

Matt Payne (30:42.449)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (30:49.934)
She didn't just grind herself off on this one stone that was figurative oil painting that she loves. She expanded it into, okay, what else can I do? I would say it was out of financial necessity, but it was also like, don't want to be tied to that one thing.

Matt Payne (31:06.706)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (31:18.606)
and be beholden to it. And if you can't get financial success from that, you starve. You don't want to be that person. Yeah.

Matt Payne (31:31.891)
No, well, I mean, creates so much self doubt and it creates, know, and then it implodes and artists are inherently sensitive anyway. And so it just becomes this like very unfulfilling life versus like, you know, when you realize like that your creativity, you're using it like, if directionally you want to be here, if you can do something that is here or here, do that.

Christian Brim (31:34.754)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (31:39.79)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (31:56.376)
Right.

Yes. Yes.

Matt Payne (32:01.297)
And it's not a bad thing. And the other thing that you said that I really believe in is like, there's this with artists often like a little bit of a shame in teaching because there's like this belief that those who can't do teach. I think that's total bullshit. for me, like, and I teach writing workshops, a bunch of them. I love, it's my favorite thing is to like stir creativity in others. And the reason why I love it is because selfishly it makes me better.

Christian Brim (32:10.062)
Mmm.

Matt Payne (32:30.961)
You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Christian Brim (32:31.086)
Yes, teaching actually you learn more and teaching than you do on the other side of the desk. Really? I mean you do because you have to have you have to have a depth of understanding to teach something to somebody else in a way that they can understand it that that is much higher than just okay. I've absorbed this knowledge like you you and so in order to become a good teacher.

Matt Payne (32:39.634)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (33:00.524)
You really have to master what you're doing.

Matt Payne (33:04.211)
I think that's right. And I think like, again, like taking it into the business, like it to sit there and like, think like, all right, I'm a painter and that and I need to be a business person. That's a big gap for a lot of people. They're like, shit, man, like I wasn't good at math is like the thing that you always hear people say, like I me. But if you can teach, you're halfway there. Because like what being good at business is about, like it's about like math, but it's really about like command.

Christian Brim (33:16.482)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (33:21.186)
Right.

Matt Payne (33:34.083)
and communication and all of those other things. And like when you're teaching, you're like, okay, cool. Like, so now I'm looking at people, I'm telling them how to make, so you're thinking about what they're creating as product, not as much as art. And then you're telling them what to do with it and how to make it better. Okay, well that's, you're now 60 % there. So like now let's look at like material cost and cost of time. And before you know it, like that was a vine.

to get you to be the business person you needed to be in the first place. yeah, like teaching is to me like the best thing people can do.

Christian Brim (34:05.731)
Yes.

Christian Brim (34:10.73)
I think, you know, to boil it down to its essence, to be reductive, business is just solving problems for money, right? Now, you know, you do have to answer that question of, I make money solving this problem? Yes. Okay. Cause you can solve problems all day and not get paid, but that's all business is, is solving problems for somebody else in exchange for value.

And accounting and finance is nothing more than a language. I tell people all the time, like, it's not a math skill, it's a language skill. Accounting is a language skill because it is the language of business. And all it's doing is it's telling a story. It's telling a story about the business. Was the business successful? What did the business achieve its goals?

Matt Payne (34:41.235)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (35:09.716)
You know, all of those questions that you have about business, the accounting and the financial information will tell you that story. And then if you make that shift to say, okay, it's a language, so I don't know Spanish, I learned Spanish, I don't know accounting, I'm learning the language. I think it's easier for creatives to get their brains around it.

Matt Payne (35:30.963)
Yeah, one of the ways I went through. Price Business College was a client of ours on our creative agency side and they wanted they have this thing called Price Executive Academy and it's like just it's a product so it's non credited, but they they piloted it. Many MBA program that I I did this this January through May and I loved it and what I loved about it was in the four years of doing.

Christian Brim (35:43.106)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (36:00.231)
the Prairie Surf stuff, it was just baptism by fire, really in business and politics and really honestly culture.

Christian Brim (36:07.722)
Yeah, you had a lot of wheelspin in there.

Matt Payne (36:10.995)
It was it was a lot and we didn't have a team at all and we there was a couple of it, know a couple of us but really like we were we were under resourced. And it was always fault. It was just we never could quite get the traction that we needed to create any kind of stability for anybody. So we were always kind of checking it. But anyway. I kind of lost my train of thought, but oh, but so I did this program and in the way that I felt like when I began to sort of understand.

the inputs and outputs. I didn't, but I didn't have the language. So I'd be like, know intuitively that deal won't work. I know for a fact, they're not going to give us 10 % of the gross of what I, I know that's wrong. I don't know how to articulate it. And so went through this whole process. And then when I went through this, this deal, Price Business College, was like, language, got it. Okay. I see. And you know, and you begin to really understand.

Christian Brim (36:46.434)
Right, yes, right, yes.

Matt Payne (37:10.365)
how it works and like the way that I always sort of would describe it was when going back to my travel days was like, felt like I got put in the back of it. I landed in a new city where I don't know the language and got put into the backs of the taxi that was going in the wrong direction. And I knew that we were going in the wrong direction, but I couldn't, I couldn't tell him why. And I couldn't tell him how to get to where we were going because I knew, but I know it's North and the sun is over there, you know.

Christian Brim (37:25.932)
but you couldn't communicate it, right?

Christian Brim (37:33.568)
Right, right, right.

Matt Payne (37:37.083)
And so eventually I learned the language and the layout and the landscape. got, it takes time. And I was lucky to get beat up the way I did, you know, it, it, mean, I think eventually I will be a hundred percent grateful for the experience that I, I've gone through.

Christian Brim (37:52.047)
I think, yes, a hundred percent. the thing about, another thing I want to demystify about finance and accounting, when I tell people that I'm an accountant or CPA, they're like, you must be good with numbers. And I'm like, not really. mean, like the highest order math you get in accounting is arithmetic. And I learned that in second grade. like, it's not a math aversion.

It really, the numbers aren't complicated as long as you understand the language, right? Like it, to me, the numbers are like the, what's the word? The, the, had just escaped me. The accent, if you will, like it's, it's, it's like that, like, you know, but as long as you understand the concepts, the math is not that important. mean, that may sound weird, but it really isn't.

Matt Payne (38:38.227)
Yeah.

Matt Payne (38:45.907)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think like, I think part of, you know, you talk about being an accountant and I, there is a lot of vulnerability and not understanding something, you know, and like, mean, when I was at, you know, unsolicited plug for your book, when I was at Oklahoma film day at the Capitol, you all had a booth set up and like, you know, and I got this film program that I'm involved in with a thousand kids in it. And like, I walked by and was like,

Christian Brim (39:00.494)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (39:09.538)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (39:18.567)
I mean, if you could make kids just comfortable having conversations with accountants, you know what I mean? Where it's just like, it's like going to the dentist is what it feels like. I remember, you're, you you, dread going, you didn't keep track. If you're 10 99, like the accountant's going to punish you financially when you get your, know, you're doing your tax. It just sucks. It's like going to the dentist until you understand that the reason why you go to the dentist is so can keep your teeth.

Christian Brim (39:38.156)
Yes.

Christian Brim (39:47.125)
Exactly. It's funny you use dentist as an analogy because I always tell that to my people. I'm like, you got to understand how people see us. Like who wants to go to the dentist? No one gets excited about going to the dentist, right? Like, and that's the same thing. And to continue the analogy, not to bag on dentists, but you know, they tend to be the medical professionals that are not great people. People like they're the ones that

Matt Payne (40:02.995)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (40:15.293)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (40:15.906)
You know, their patients, you know, can't talk, you know, so, so you don't have to talk to them. it, and, accountants are the same way. mean, they, they gravitate to the spreadsheet, not to people. And so, you know, that's, that's my hardest job is getting my people trained up with the skills to be able to, empathize their emotional intelligence and, and to communicate.

in a way that is not account in the accountant accounting. Yeah. Yes.

Matt Payne (40:49.789)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's true. And I, you know, I think another part of being an artist is like most artists start poor, you know, like it's not you're not making a ton of money at first and like, know, and yeah, totally. Well, but you know, when it's fun to go to the accountant is when you've made a shitload of money, you know what I mean? Like, and you and like, you've managed it well, you're like, how do do this here? You know, like, let's look at it. And

Christian Brim (40:58.36)
guess. Mini die-poor.

Christian Brim (41:09.773)
Yes.

Matt Payne (41:18.319)
And I think there's a little bit of almost shame that comes with like having to look at your, your net income, you know, just like, I mean, I remember not liking that very much, you know, certain years, particularly as a writer. but yeah, it, at the end of the day, it's just about, it's empowering. And I think like, and this is more the writer in me, but like, you know, I would travel all around the, and so much of this is like also how,

Christian Brim (41:25.986)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Payne (41:47.631)
being able to play the role that we played in Oklahoma City and working with the city and working with the Chamber of Commerce and working in different communities and schools and all those things. But like I would do travel writing, you go to a city and they'd explain to you how they funded some initiative and you don't really understand it, you know, but understanding how cities work is really about you got to understand the money. And when you understand the money, then you understand like

why people make the decisions that they make macro. And so when you're sitting down to be like, want to write a story about these five characters, if you're not thinking about how they pay for their lives, what they can and can't pay for first and foremost, you're not writing a good story. Because that's like, that's the reality of their lives. That's every person in the world is like the reality of their life is like the decisions they make are just 95 % of the time is about money.

Christian Brim (42:29.23)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (42:34.53)
Yes.

Matt Payne (42:44.303)
And so like to me to sit there and be like, okay, well, if I'm to go back and revisit, like, I always like these father son stories and father son dynamics. And I always wrote them from the lens of like the misunderstood son, you know, that was just like, I want to be an artist and my dad doesn't understand. And I never for once was like, what does a dad think about his son that wants to be an artist? And you're like, okay, well, like, let's put ourselves in the dad's position. The dad has a

Admid mid-level executive job where he clears like 80,000 bucks a year He's got this kid that only likes art and won't put like this dad is this is the guy I worry about not the kid You know the dad's trying to be a good father and and give advice like but my point is like if you understand Someone's understanding of money they make they make sense in every way a thousand times better than if you don't you're just it's it's Very surface and very amorphous without like that understanding so

Anyway, that's something that has really changed the way I think about character.

Christian Brim (43:45.102)
Can we pause one second? I have to pee. Okay.

Matt Payne (43:50.119)
Yeah, Yeah.

Christian Brim (43:53.998)
So do you think you'll ever write a screenplay on your experience at Prairie Surf?

Matt Payne (44:03.507)
No, but it will, it is funny. I think it will influence if I decide to go, and I've been trying to get back to writing. I actually had a, writing was always like a very vulnerable thing for me. And that was the hardest part about it was like, I talked about the relatability and the character stuff, but like most writing for me, was just like an exploration of like pain and insecurity in a way that is humorous. Like I'm a big believer in like comedy is just,

Christian Brim (44:05.334)
You said it was funny.

Christian Brim (44:27.086)
Hmm.

Matt Payne (44:33.075)
Heartbreak plus time, you know, like I think that's pain plus time. They said differently tragedy plus time but I Stop, I just kind of quit writing when a friend of mine passed away I was just like I was with them and it was just horrible thing and like I just was like I don't want to Write shit down anymore. Like it just it just stopped and I did I would do some like travel journalism kind of writing

Christian Brim (44:34.36)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (44:52.942)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (44:56.472)
Okay.

Matt Payne (45:01.085)
But I was like, just like, have all this in me. And I feel like I understand the world in a way that I never did before. Because you understand mortality in a way that's just like, so fleeting. And then I had my kids, you know, in the same almost couple of years and all of these things were so transformation and then went through this process with Prairie Surf. And like, I don't feel like the same person anymore.

Christian Brim (45:09.548)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (45:29.591)
since we decided to shut down, I've been doing a lot of like, what if I could start over again, what would I do? Like people ask, get, you know, I think there's so many people in this world that dream of that, having that opportunity. I'm actually getting to, and I'm getting to from a place that's empowered. And, and so I've kind of thought about writing again and in that like,

Pain plus time is the definition of comedy. Like, Prairie Surf and all of those things that I taught, parenting is really hard, but it's funny and soulful to reflect on. Death even is, in some ways, so raw and inhuman. There's humor in it. And Prairie Surf was just, was wild. I mean, was so much stuff that you just can't believe is real. And I'm not talking about like the, I'm talking about like, here's a convention center that's been falling apart for 40 years.

entrepreneurs tag your it by the way they call the roof myriad falls because it leaks so much water that you can hear it roaring like like Turner Falls when it rains and you're like where we're gonna put the sound stages like yeah I don't know you guys wanted the building so make let's make some movie but there was so much humor in it and so much soul so much of Rachel soul so much of mine so much of the people that work for us and with us

Christian Brim (46:29.166)
Ha ha ha ha.

Christian Brim (46:41.314)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (46:53.162)
I think, I think it'd be an interesting story to hear for sure. All the, if you're looking for inspiration.

Matt Payne (46:54.077)
So yeah, I I think.

Matt Payne (46:59.834)
Yeah, it's a it's a it is, you know, and there and I think, I don't know. I I go back to, you know, for me, like, as an artist, I mean, and as a band as someone who's become very entrepreneurial, like the all the moments in my life that like, or I was like, I made these like, huge, like chasm leaps.

always stem from something I didn't want that just happened. I've been reading that Matthew McConaughey book, like red lights and green lights and like green lights and like these red lights, like they're real. But that is where the shit happens. It is in like, I think about like shows getting canceled in LA and being like, God dang it, like I'm gonna lose my apartment. And it's out of my control. Like I have no control of any these.

Christian Brim (47:32.088)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (47:46.912)
Right. Right.

Matt Payne (47:52.125)
but like here's travel riding and next thing you know I'm on a plane going to Fiji for free and it's just like okay well let's try this but like you don't try things unless you're stuck and so then it's like all right how do we get stuck? Let's not create getting stuck but when we're stuck you've got to sit there and you've got to go okay then what is the opportunity in this and what is calling me and where can I move?

And like, where can I move? Like we live in a three dimensional world. So it's like, if you're just thinking linearly, like you're fucked. But if you.

Christian Brim (48:24.3)
Well, yeah, I had that epiphany earlier this week and I don't know that it's novel, but what came to my brain was only humans think in straight lines. Like there are no straight lines in nature. Like in all of creation, there's no straight lines. And we think that things are going to happen to us in a straight line.

Matt Payne (48:43.827)
Okay. Nope.

Christian Brim (48:50.811)
Especially in business like we're going to do this, this and this and this is going to happen and it's all going to go out the way we plan. No, it's not. I don't care how good you are planning. Nothing works out that way.

Matt Payne (49:01.843)
No, mean it doesn't and like there's a I think it's attributed to Herbie Hancock in and it was in a documentary I was watching and Someone tell the story of someone coming up to Herbie Hancock and saying like how did you how do you play that? What I see this saxophone guy, guess So well How did you do it and he goes, what do you do and he either has a man I hate my life sucks, man

I'm a waiter and like, it's just miserable. And all I want to do is play horns. And he's like, that's what's going to make you play the horn well. Like lean into that thing that you don't like and like make art from that place. You know, like old bands, mean, listen to like counting crows the other day, you know, and like Adam Duritz as a, as a 55 year old, like self actualized multimillionaire.

Christian Brim (49:43.277)
Mmm.

Matt Payne (49:56.655)
is not the same, it's not evocative in the way that like this kid singing about Mr. Jones is. And like all that's pain.

Christian Brim (50:00.076)
No, no, like Eminem is Eminem is one of those like when when he first started like, yeah, and then he it's not it's not the same because it's no, no.

Matt Payne (50:11.505)
Nope. But it's just, it's all that pain. so like, you know, you know, what artists all are gravitating towards is that like actualization, like that's what we want. You know, it's all about just like trying to like create equilibrium. And whether that's like a sort of allocation again of like serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin, or if it's like something more spiritual than that, whatever it is, like

We're writing to resolve, we're creating to resolve and to seek equilibrium in some way to be like, here's how I countered this pain with this story. And for this moment in time, it stops and you're finished. And then it goes on again. And the more off balance you are, more agitation cycles are what clean. so I guess I always think of, I don't know that.

Christian Brim (50:37.358)
Mmm.

Matt Payne (51:04.275)
as an artist and like that's the part of me on the business side is like when you're just experiencing life as an artist, you're more susceptible to those things. But when you're like thinking like a business guy, it's just like, all right, we got to make money to keep the ship going. So like stop that emotion. I'm not going to deal with that. That's sad, but I'm going to compartmentalize. And at some point, you know, the artist slash business guy has got to be like, we got to open some of these doors and let this chaos kind of in. And when that happens, you're like, all right, create now it's time.

Christian Brim (51:31.31)
I love that. So how do people find out more about what you're doing currently?

Matt Payne (51:32.915)
Ciao.

Matt Payne (51:38.627)
I think so I've got, you know, all my, what, what, what I'm doing now is, I'm making content for people. So, like kind of, Create a production company for hire. the, I'm giving myself a little time so that I can kind of get back to these kind of creative roots, a little bit before I kind of launched the next thing. But,

Christian Brim (51:46.69)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Payne (52:03.889)
We just finished my team and I under what we're temporarily calling Matt Payne Media, just created a three part district series in Oklahoma City with 405 Magazine and Cadillac. We just finished up a thing with Jocasta Leone and Price Business College at OU. So we got things like that. And then like most of my work, my art is at Matt Payne Media or on Instagram at Matt Payne Travel Photography, which is something I've never changed.

That's where I post most of my work and over the next six months, I'm gonna let fate kind of guide me to whatever my next step is, but I continue to work closely with Scissortail Studios, the high school program that I co-founded, gonna continue to put my time there serving on a couple of boards, one at OU, Gaylord College, one at Oklahoma City Community College. So I'm just gonna just...

engage and give back and create and sort of trust that the next thing is going to emerge just like it has every other time in my life. Yeah.

Christian Brim (53:08.222)
Love it. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message and we'll get rid of Matt. Until then, ta-ta for now.