CFO Chronicles: The Secrets Behind Success

The Mindset Shift That Takes High-Performing Firms to the Next Level with Neil Barrow

• James Donovan • Season 2 • Episode 29

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The most successful accounting professionals don't sell—they consult. This transformative episode with Neil Barrow reveals the crucial mindset shift that separates struggling practitioners from those who effortlessly build thriving books of business.

Drawing from nearly a decade in public accounting as a business development leader, Neil dismantles the uncomfortable "sales" stigma that plagues many financial professionals. Instead, he presents a practical framework focused on asking better questions, avoiding the "default to yes" trap, and approaching every client conversation with genuine curiosity rather than a pitch.

You'll discover why sending proposals prematurely leads to ghosting, and how a simple question—"What exactly do you need to see to make your decision?"—can dramatically improve your close rates. Neil shares real-world examples of how slight adjustments in conversation flow have helped his clients win business they would have otherwise lost.

Perhaps most valuable is Neil's counterintuitive approach to growth: rather than constantly seeking more leads, focus on winning more of the opportunities already coming your way. By recording discovery calls, reviewing your performance, and refining your framework, you can transform a 30-40% win rate into 70-80% without any additional marketing spend.

Whether you're a fractional CFO, firm owner, or accounting professional looking to grow your practice, this episode provides the practical, no-nonsense strategies you need to win more business without sacrificing your professional integrity or feeling like a salesperson.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to CFO Chronicles the secrets behind success the go-to podcast for fractional CFOs and accounting firm owners who want to attract more high-paying clients and increase their revenue. Hosted by James Donovan from Nine Two Media, this podcast dives into marketing strategies specifically designed for lead generation and client acquisition. In each episode, you'll hear from industry leaders sharing their success stories, and Today we're diving deep into the world of business development but not in the way you've heard before.

Speaker 2:

My guest, neil, spent nearly a decade in public accounting as a business development originator and leader, and now he helps firms tackle growth challenges in a real way, not just through generic best practices. He's got an insider's perspective on what actually works when it comes to building a book of business, growing a firm and getting buy-in from leadership, all without feeling salesy. If you're a professional in accounting, finance or consulting looking to win more business, the right way, you're in for a masterclass, neil, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, james, appreciate you having me.

Speaker 2:

Really looking forward to diving into a little bit about your background, how you help accounting firms grow. I guess the first question I have for you a lot of accountants and finance professionals hate the idea of sales. What's the biggest mindset?

Speaker 3:

shift they need to make to grow their book of business. Yeah, you know from my experience and working with CPAs and accountants over the years is really moving the mindset from pitching clients to consulting clients. There's a great book that's called Getting Naked. It's a parable around a consulting firm that goes in immediately and starts consulting with clients and asking great questions rather than pitching the services that they feel like that they need. And it's just a mindset shift to move to consulting rather than a sales pitch, because nobody wants to go in and pitch sales. It feels awkward, it's weird to talk about themselves, and so the easiest way for professionals to add value to prospective clients and even their current clients is to ask great questions.

Speaker 2:

It's so true, especially because nobody wakes up or I'm very few people wake up and say I need to buy accounting today. That's not at the top of a lot of people's lists, but what they are looking for is the solutions to the problems they're having. So it's it's really just being the doctor who's asking the questions. Where does it hurt? How long does it hurt? Why is it hurting? What have you done to fix it?

Speaker 2:

okay, now here's the prescription yeah, no, you're exactly right, and it's just coming in with that consultative mindset what is something you've noticed with a lot of accounting professionals who are so used to relying heavily on referrals, versus when they need to start having conversations with, say, internet leads or opportunities that are not? You know that the low hanging referrals yeah, so you know.

Speaker 3:

Again, going back to you, know my background and being practical, right, when you look at the majority of of fractional CFOs or accounting firms, the majority of their new business is generated through referrals and word of mouth, and so those are a lot easier to move towards clients right into onboarding them. But when you're talking about inbound leads or generic website referrals or 1-800-FRACTIONAL-CFO right the hotline, those are approached in a little different way where I've got to be a little bit more skeptical around. Is this person going to be a good fit? So it's understanding what is an ideal client for you and the firm and it's being able to ask questions up front.

Speaker 3:

A lot of us avoid price conversation up front. A lot of us will avoid asking hard questions on is this going to be a good client for me? And all of that comes from experience and getting the reps in and practicing the question. There's no substitute for that. You can go to all the trainings you want, you can read all the books you want, but you got to do it and fill it out for yourself, and that's the thing. When it's related to business development, that's so ambiguous and it means different things to different people, and so you've got to find your own rhythm within a framework that works, which is ultimately related to your question on cold or inbound. I've got to have a good scorecard, a good question and a good framework to go into some of those first discovery type conversations with a prospective client.

Speaker 2:

You've worked with a lot of firms. What's the most painful common mistake you see in business development and how do you generally either fix it or advise on that firm to fix that issue?

Speaker 3:

Well, there's a lot. I think it depends on where the conversation is in the funnel right. So there's a lot of common mistakes, like you were talking about with that first meeting, where it's we don't do a good enough job asking questions to figure out if they're a qualified opportunity or not. So a lot of times we default to yes. So that's like the number one mistake that I see a lot of professionals make is we just want to say yes. So, hey, do y'all do tax work? Absolutely we do do. Let me tell you about how we do that. Let me tell you how we price.

Speaker 3:

Instead of asking, well, what are you actually looking for? You have somebody that does your taxes already. What's going on, right? And so taking the time to ask that second layer question instead of defaulting to yes, we all hear it. Hey, at the end of the conversation with a prospective client, oh man, this sounds great, send us a, send us a proposal. And we say, yeah, sure, we'll send you a proposal. And then we didn't talk about budget, we didn't talk about what they think that this should cost, we didn't ask what they're paying today, and so the first time that they're seeing pricing from us is from a generic three-page proposal that lists all of our services, and they're surprised typically. And then guess what? They don't respond or they ghost us, and that's because that is a function of the conversation that we have that leads to a proposal.

Speaker 3:

So I'm a big advocate of not sending proposals unless it's an actual opportunity that I'm going to win. Where I know it's already won, I just need to say, hey, well, what exactly do you need to see from me to make your decision? Who else do you need to talk to about this? Would it be helpful if we got something on the calendar next week to go over everything right and decide if this is a fit?

Speaker 3:

So we lose a lot of our opportunities due to indecision right, where that person, that company, cannot make a decision because they don't know how to distinguish between what they need and who can actually help and deliver the results that they need, and so we default to yes a lot, and so that's one of the number one things that I see is we rely on proposals as a crutch, we default to yes, and if we were just asked those second layer questions, we'll really determine if this is a good working relationship for both of us, and then we can help them find exactly what they need. A lot of times we're not going to be a fit for what they need, and so we need to be confident in what we deliver and be confident and able to refer them out to someone else that can help if they're not going to be a fit. So we need to help them, we need to be the advisor and consultant.

Speaker 2:

I love that piece you mentioned. Hey, send me a proposal. Well, what exactly do you need to see in it? There's so much power in that question because they're going to tell you exactly what is going to make them buy by them saying what they need to seen it. It um yeah, it frustrates me when I hear clients and prospects say, well, yeah, I sent out a proposal and nothing happened yeah okay, of course that's the first time they're seeing the price yeah no kidding, they're not going to respond like.

Speaker 2:

That needs to be discussed. You need to extract the build the value on the call so that the price, the value, significantly outweighs the price. But it seems like it's a very common, uncomfortable thing for for accounting professionals not to put everyone in the bucket, but a lot there. It's uncomfortable to discuss that either on the phone or over Zoom with a prospect.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, I mean one of my clients. Just recently. We were talking about some of their opportunities in their pipeline and they were telling me that they had a great meeting and they were sending a proposal and I said, okay, time out. Did you talk about pricing? Did you talk about how they're going to evaluate their decision? Did you talk about any of this? And it's. It was no. And so I said, well, before you send that proposal, you call them and you ask, hey, before I put some more work into this proposal, I want to make sure that I'm making the actual recommendation that you need, and then it fits exactly with what your budget is, if we can do that. So have that conversation. They ended up having it and they ended up winning the proposal because of that.

Speaker 3:

If they wouldn't have had that conversation, then what most proposals do is they give you a menu of services with all of the pricing and they say, hey, you figure it out, tell me what you need. And that's not how people buy. I'm coming to you as the expert to tell me what I need, give me a recommendation, and so one of my favorite things to ask on calls is hey, if I were to help you with what you need. Here's what I would do if I were in your position. Right, making a personal recommendation for you based on what I heard is your problem, your budget and where you're at and what you are practically able to do.

Speaker 3:

Because we know that, especially selling fractional CFO services, we can do so much as a fractional CFO for somebody, but a lot of times they're not ready for the really high level stuff. They need some basic blocking and tackling before we get to the high level stuff. So I need to make a personal recommendation based on what it is and that sounds like. Hey, if I were in your position, this is the first step that I would take. And here's how much that costs. What do you think? That's a lot easier conversation to have before I just send a proposal and hey, here's our buckets and here's our pricing and tiers on services. That doesn't help me make a decision as a buyer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely it's. It's eliminating all the extra decisions as well. They already they already have the decision Do they want to work with you, yes or no? They don't need the extra decisions of do I want the gold, the silver, the bronze, the platinum, whatever other you know buzzword? You want to call it on your menu of services. Give them the recommendation of what is going to be best for them. And you only get there if you ask questions like a human yes, what? What do you say to your clients? When or how do you help them break out of that mindset of oh well, they were just price shopping or they I'm out of their budget. They're not actually interested. They're just looking Because to me, when I hear that there is intent there, people are still phoning in. They're having the conversation, they're looking around To me at least. There's not enough value being added on the call. How do you have that conversation and break that mindset with your clients?

Speaker 3:

I mean that's a tough one because, again, going back to it, there's no silver bullet for any of this. For growth, right, and it takes reps, it takes experience having these conversations and that's something you can practice right and get better and analyze, but you have to go have them. So you know, I think the recommendation that I would have in this mindset shift is really approaching it from their perspective, and so we do a lot of things like putting ourselves in their shoes as a buyer, like if I were buying my own services and I were them their company profile, how large they are, the team. Putting all those things into context, what would I need to know to make a decision on what that I need? Because, again, going back to the fractional CFO model, I can do bookkeeping all the way to dashboards and FP&A or whatever that looks like right dashboards and FP&A or whatever that looks like right. But if I'm at a point where they're not ready for that dashboards, right, if they're not ready for the dashboards yet, I need to make that recommendation and I need to call it out right and I need to say, hey, y'all want this, but y'all aren't ready for this. So why don't we take the first three months and get everything cleaned up and get your blocking and tackling done, and then we can add on the dashboards if y'all are ready for that once we get to that point but coming at it as a consultant, as an advisor to these companies, not somebody that's looking to sell my services to them so that's my number one recommendation and having a framework for that.

Speaker 3:

So I have a lot of my clients record their zoom calls. So if they're, we're in a virtual world. Now a lot of our folks are having in-person meetings, which is great, but a lot of them are also having video calls and virtual calls and so I like to have them record the call and then we go back and look at tape. So, just like an athlete would go back and watch game film, we're going back and watching game tape on how these conversations go, and then you'll pick up on things. Hey, you know what I should have asked?

Speaker 3:

Another question related to this. There seems like there was more there, or? Hey, I didn't like how I put that. I didn't like how I sounded when I asked that question. I need to come up with a different way to ask that and then we can start building a framework on how some of these conversations typically go, because eventually you'll get to the point where you've done this enough times, to where you already know what the prospect is going to say. You already know where they're at, you already know what questions they're going to say. You already know where they're at, you already know what questions they're going to ask, and so you can build your conversation ahead of time. So you know what questions to ask, you know what to say, and it just makes it easier for them to understand. Do I want to hire this person or not, and will they be a good client for me or not?

Speaker 2:

What I'm hearing from you, neil, is you're, you're playing. You're playing chess, not checkers. You're already one step ahead of the game because you have your framework laid out. You've done the reps, you know how the conversation is going to go, but you're asking the questions that you know you're. You're leading the conversation in the direction you want it to go, assuming that prospect's the right fit, versus just being reactive to everything that's happening. You're completely off the tracks and you lose control of the conversation.

Speaker 3:

Sure, I mean, we're all people right. So we've got distractions, we got back-to-back meetings, we got client work, we got stuff going on at home. So what we do as professionals is we work so hard to get a referral, we work, we hire people to do lead gen, to get us good opportunities, and then we wing it and that's not it Right. And so a lot of people approach me and say hey, we're looking to grow, like we need more at bats. We need more people to know about our brand. Man, if only people would just know more about us, we would get so much more work.

Speaker 3:

And in reality, do you need more or do you just need to win more of what you're getting? And the basics of blocking and tackling are just making sure that if our win rates at 30, 40, 50%, can we get it to 60, 70, 80%, based on how we ask questions and move people out and make recommendations for other. Hey, you don't need me where you're at right now. What I'd do is I'd go do this, or, yes, you do, and here's exactly how I can help. Do you want to move forward? And asking those questions and it's just again preparing more for these conversations that are so valuable to growing our business.

Speaker 2:

That's a really good point. It's not necessarily always needing to do more, it's just optimizing what's already coming through. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 3:

And then, once you optimize, then you can add for more. Yeah, but we try to add for more without optimizing, and I'm using big words like optimizing and frameworks and all this stuff, but it's as simple as just understanding what questions I need to ask to understand if they're a good fit. And then what questions do I need to ask to help them make a decision on what they need to solve their problems. That's it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is very simple and it gets over complicated and that's where the tires just end up spinning in the mud. I just finished a conversation, before jumping on here with you that I thought was so impactful. It's with another marketing professional. She works with law firms in the US and she's getting one of her clients a ton of leads. Well, everyone knows, not every single lead is the best lead in the world and it's the first thing to get discarded. All the leads are bad. I can't sell. Okay. Well, what are you doing with the quote unquote bad leads? Then You've already paid for them, so are they just gonna go sit in a bin? What she said her client's doing is every single person who's not a fit.

Speaker 2:

they're asking if they know anyone else in their network who is a fit to work with and they are killing it, and it's such a simple question to be asking, because you've already paid for all these opportunities, so why not try to squeeze a little bit more out? Hey look, we're not the best fit right now. Either you're too far ahead from where I'm at or we're. You know we're too. We're ahead of you. Whatever the gap is, is there anyone else in your network who you know would be looking for what we're doing? I think it would surprise a lot of people at how much opportunity would come from asking that simple question at the end of every conversation.

Speaker 3:

I mean asking for referrals. All right, I think that is a big miss because it's uncomfortable and it's awkward and we haven't had experience doing that, so we don't have the muscle growth on asking that, because it's not as scary as you think. But, again, that's not practical for everyone. Some people are just not going to do that, and that's okay. We can do different things. But yes to your point, it's what works for me and what questions do I need to ask to make sure that I'm maximizing the return on these relationships that I'm developing? Because, again, I want to add value, I want to be valuable to my relationships and my network and so people that I'm meeting I want to help, right? I think? When you look at professionals in accounting or law, whoever, when you're talking about professionals in general, you have a skill set and the reason you got into this work is to help people with your skill set, and so not losing that frame of reference whenever you're having these conversations will lead to better questions.

Speaker 2:

Neil speaking of helping people and growing your network. How do you get in front of your ideal prospects? What do you do to market your business?

Speaker 3:

So I have to eat my own medicine, right? You know, as a former business development director, I was paid to build a network, right, so I was paid to build relationships. And so I started out cheating right, with a lot of folks because I was paid full time to go out there and meet people. What I do today is I'm hyper focused on my time and that's what I make sure that everybody understands. From my clients perspective, and a lot of the content that I generate around what I do is centered around focus. I need to know exactly what my ideal client looks like, and it's not businesses in a region from $3 to $50 million that's not it. Three to $50 million that's not it. Okay, it is a hyper-focused, and I'll just give you mine as an example. Right, I work with professional financial and consulting service firms the doer sellers that are under $30 million, that want to hire a business development person or really want to get their people focused on business development. That's it right. And so that list helps you shrink your world and your network that you have and saying, oh yeah, there's a law firm that I know, or there's a CPA firm or a fractional CFO firm that I know that would really enjoy talking to Neil right, and so getting hyper-focused on that message. That allows me to then identify where those people hang out. And so, do they hang out at associations? Do they hang out at conferences? Are they on LinkedIn? Where do I go to find those people and start to try to generate a conversation? Because, again, marketing is the one to many, right, Podcasting is the one to many, and that's a marketing tool, but I need to use that to do BD, which is to generate one-to-one conversations, and so that's how I think about it is getting super tight on my messaging as it relates to your ideal client.

Speaker 3:

Really thinking through that and a lot of people have a lot of professionals have a hard time making that switch because they think that it's going to shut them off to all the other opportunities that they get. Well, I kind of I don't really focus just on construction or manufacturing companies. I also do all these others but what they don't realize is that by focusing that, you're going to get more of your ideal, but with your network, they're still going to think about you as the fractional CFO, and so you're still going to get opportunities, but when you're pursuing with your own valuable time business development opportunities. It's really centered around as small as group as possible. So I know that if I talk to a construction company that doesn't have a CFO that's growing, I know it's a slam dunk for me and so they're more likely to buy from me, and so that's what's of value. It's really focusing that so you get really ownership on your time, on the highest ROI that you can generate.

Speaker 2:

I heard this a million times before. But if you're trying to sell to everyone, you're selling to no one because, you. Just you can't be the expert in every single business out there, you can't speak their language and you do not come across as the authority figure, so what you're saying is so powerful. Um, I know of marketing companies who, like this, blew my mind when I heard it. Their niche is with funeral homes and they're doing like $5 million a year.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like how is a marketing company only working with funeral homes and that marketing company is making $5 million Like you can get so niched in so many different areas, but that's where you're going to win, because now you're speaking the language and become an authority figure in that space.

Speaker 2:

So, what you're saying is yeah, again, it's so powerful. You mentioned you know your ideal audience. They're looking to grow, they're looking for business development. How do you find firms who you know are looking for that, or is it more of hey, based off experience, generally they're this size in either headcount. Generally they're this size in revenue, or here's a trend they would be on, Because you could look at a list of, say, accounting firms or fractional CFO firms. But how are you pinpointing they're the ones who are growing, they're the ones who need BD.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So it's hard to, because a lot of it is mindset for what I do specifically and a lot of probably what your folks that are listening to the podcast are dealing with too. Like there's a mindset shift, like, hey, I've got to be open to hiring somebody to help me with this. That's outside, or a fractional how I identify that is really through. Well, there's a couple different ways. One is I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, and the reason I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn is because that's where all the professionals hang out, right. So attorneys, cpas they're always looking to grow and so I'm always keeping an eye out for people that are looking to hire. So if I see a job description, tools and technology, I just make sure that I spend I block time and it's usually an hour a day to reach out personally to people that are either adjacent to my network that own firms or to do some research around business development, job postings, marketing, job postings posting from people on LinkedIn that are in marketing for these types of firms that are needing help, and I just want to network with them and tell them what I'm doing. So I have to do a lot of outreach and it's personal, but when I spend my time doing business development it's well-researched. I know my ideal client, I know my messaging and it's centered around growing my network and adding value. So I think, when you think about three things, that when you're looking at doing outreach to your network, those are the three things that I would focus on, because oftentimes we have a great network or a good one to get started, we just don't nurture them and message it in a way that allows them to help us. So I say this a lot to my clients where we need to help them, help us, and how I help my network help me, is I'm hyper-focused on what I want and that helps them bucket me into this category of one. I talk a lot about this where it's a Tim Ferriss. If you know Tim Ferriss, author of the 4-Hour Workweek, he talks about this in one of his newsletters, which is centered around this category of one.

Speaker 3:

So whenever somebody thinks about business development for professional service firms, I want them to think about Neil. That's the only person they think about, just like some of your audience, just like you, when you think about lead gen for fractional CFO firms, I want to think about James when I think about fractional CFO in Austin, texas, for construction companies. I only want to think about this person, so you can build that and it's generating that messaging for your network and then reaching out to people to have these conversations. It's not going to happy hours, right, it's not going to. It doesn't have to be. If that's your thing, that's cool, but it doesn't have to be going to happy hours and networking events and doing all this and just meeting people. That's a part of it. It could be, but I can be hyper-focused in how I cultivate my network based on my messaging.

Speaker 2:

And it doesn't happen in 10, 20, 30 days, even six months. It takes time, it just takes time. Yep, neil, there's so much valuable insight you're sharing. Thanks for all of that. How can all the listeners get in touch with you and continue this conversation?

Speaker 3:

Connect with me on LinkedIn. Neil Barrow. I post weekly content around business development for business development professionals, for professionals in professional service firms, but that's the best way to follow me and keep up with what I'm doing.

Speaker 2:

Perfect, we'll put your link in the show notes so that people can click on it, hopefully continue the conversation with you Again, neil, thank you so much for coming on. This was awesome.

Speaker 3:

Thanks.

Speaker 2:

James. I appreciate it. Man, thanks for tuning in to this episode of CFO Chronicles the secrets behind success. I hope you found value in today's conversation. As we wrap up, I'd love for you to do two things. First, make sure to subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. If you enjoyed today's discussion, please rate and review the show. It helps others discover the insights we share here. Second, if you're ready to take your business to the next level and attract the high-end clients you deserve, head over to accountingleadsnowcom or click the link in the show notes to book your strategy. Call. It's time to position yourself as the advisor your clients need. And don't forget you can connect with me on LinkedIn to stay up to date on what's happening in the world of accounting and financial growth. We've got more exciting topics coming up, so stay tuned for the next episode of CFO Chronicles. Until then, keep pushing forward. Your growth is just one strategic move away.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening to CFO Chronicles the secrets behind success. We hope today's episode provided valuable strategies to help you attract more high-paying clients. Be sure to subscribe, follow and share with fellow professionals. Connect with us on LinkedIn and leave a review or comment to join the conversation. Your feedback helps us bring you the best insights in finance and marketing. Until next time, keep striving for success and unlocking your business's potential.