He's a Lawyer AND a CPA. Here's the One Question That Changed His Sales | with Christopher Papin

You ask clients to send a PDF through a secure portal. If they can't, they're not your client.

Sounds harsh. It's not, it's a filter.

Episode 80 features Christopher Papin, who runs a law firm AND a CPA firm at the same time, and somehow still keeps a third of his day for life outside the office. Forbes and Thomson Reuters have both recognized his work. He's also the author of "168 Hours" and host of the BLABO podcast.

In this conversation, Chris breaks down the exact onboarding system that gets him a 70-80% close rate, why he calls every signed letter of intent a "promise ring," and how hiring people with bartending and hospitality backgrounds fixed his client communication overnight.

If you've ever lost a deal because you didn't ask the right follow-up question, this one's for you.

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Transcript

Meet Chris Papen And His Work

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of the Accounting Leads Now podcast. My guest today, I actually met a few weeks ago at GrowCon in Salt Lake City. We were in the same room, struck up a conversation, and I knew pretty quickly this guy needed to be on the show. He runs both a law firm and a CPA firm at the same time and somehow manages to build an award-winning practice without destroying his team or personal life in the process. Forbes recognized them, Thomas Reuters recognized them, and he still manages to keep work-life balance from being just a thing people say at conferences. He also wrote a book called 168 Hours, a startup business guide built specifically around the reality that you don't have unlimited time. And he hosts the PLABO podcast, Plabo. The way he thinks about productivity, client communication, and running a dual discipline practice is worth your full attention. Chris Papen, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

What's up, James? How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I'm pumped to have you here, Chris. I hope I didn't absolutely butcher the name of your podcast in the intro, and I'm hoping that pushes a lot of people with curiosity over to your show before we even get out of the gates.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Right, Blabo. What is Blabo? You'll find out.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Blabo. Okay. So I did butcher it a little bit, but uh I think you'll send some grace my way. So, Chris, we had a chance to connect, I believe you probably came by the booth, but we really got to connect a dinner the night of the gala at uh at Grocon.

Why He Built A Dual Practice

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Just off the top, for those who weren't there, what was your favorite part about being a Grocon?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So I think there's like a 1A and 1B. Um good attorney always says it depends, right? But 1A were the people. I think the people in the room, um, you and I just kind of being able to do this is a testament to the types of folks that were around and their willingness to share and allow us to learn from one another. But secondarily, there was a unique focus. Didn't matter the presenter, but obviously grow con. It's about grow, right? How do you grow your firm? How do you grow your presence? But there was a unique focus that appealed to everybody in the room. So I got to start to listen to different ways other firms were doing things, or maybe different ways bookkeeping only firms were approaching their strategies and how they're gaining clients or how they're servicing their clients, which makes us look at our model a little bit different. So that that part was exciting because you you were kind enough to share all kinds of tips and tricks. And and you know, I think you've got just mountains of embedded wisdom that if somebody will just listen for 30 seconds, they'll they'll pick something up, but that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, awesome. Well, I appreciate I appreciate that. And yeah, I mean Grocon is a great conference. It was our third time going back. Um, and it was awesome to meet you there. And I'm pumped to see you at the next next conference where we can cross paths again and share a meal. So, two two firms, Chris. You got a law firm and a CPA firm running simultaneously. That sounds like an incredible lift, a ton on your plate. How did that even happen? Walk me back to where this all started.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

All right. A whole bunch, super short. If I need to unpack any of it, tell me. But mom and dad were both entrepreneurs, grew up around it. They they taught at the local university, had uh businesses. So there's this educational and business component that I just take for granted to some extent. When my dad passed, my brother had to take over family business. So there's a succession planning, you know, to be determined in the rest of the story that's in there. Uh to this day, still operates dad's business. So as I see these things, there's a lot of stuff in business land that I was just good at. Saw, again, took for granted. Somewhere in my accounting program, it wasn't quite this direct, but I started skipping pieces of the chapter and went to the professor. I'm like, why are we skipping the good stuff? And the essence of it was what we were studying was accounting. What we weren't was typically done by lawyers with drafting. So in the moment, I was like, yeah, that's dumb. Why can't the same person do this? Like that, it's in the same book. I don't get it. Fast forward, you know, did the accounting program, did my master's, got my CPA, sat for the exam while I was going to law school, in law school, kind of knew, you know, small business, small business owner land, didn't know this is where I would land, but kind of knew the path. And then it had a law school professor kind of grab me and say, Chris, you know you're not normal, right? Like I knew this person relatively well. I'm like, what the heck are you talking about? And they're like, no one in their right mind takes the CPA exam, let alone passes it during their breaks of law school. What are you doing? And some of it was just challenging me because, like, hey, this is a unique accomplishment. There's some statistical anomaly anomalies that go with it, but that's the first time it actually hit. Because what it the what are you doing was something around what are you trying to build, what's the practice you're trying to be in. And it was representing small businesses and small business owners. I didn't, I've had I've got experience working in big giant companies, I've got experience working in one-man bands, but it was this weird interentrepreneurial thing in between where there's not a common place to go to get a lot of these conversations. And, you know, like you're kind enough to do through this podcast, you're bringing people on to tell stories. Well, clients have one story, they've got one business. I represent hundreds. We've done this thousands of times. So when somebody exits their business, when I was a young gun, they were like, What do you know about succession planning? Like, huh? Let me tell you, dad passed. I lived it. Yeah. Oh. So it was a different vibe. And that's how it all comes together. It's not a heavy lift in the sense that I represent small businesses and small business owners just like you do. We have the same types of conversations. You're just the specialist in one area, whereas I'm a specialist in another. Have you ever talked to anybody about uncertainty in their business?

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, put a finger down.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Right? It's a same drill, same drill. So that's kind of the cliff notes to get you there. It's a lot, I know it's a mouthful. I'll be less caffeinated with the rest of my answers.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

No, no, that's good. So when when a client comes to you, and I'm I'm guessing maybe it's the avenue or the channel they come from, but how how do you explain what you do, the services you offer, or or where do you start? Is it obviously if they come through the law firm route, that's more law-driven the conversation. Is it as easy as that if they come through the the accounting firm route, or is it pretty blended in how you respond back to that potential client?

Translating Client Pain Into Real Needs

SPEAKER_01 6:40

The short answer is yes. Uh, as you well know, clients are going to come to you in whatever form they come to you. Most of the time there's a pain point, and and you're spot on in the sense, like, hey, I'm calling the law firm because I need an estate plan, or I'm exiting my business, or I'm starting my business. Same thing on the CPA firm. They'll call and they'll say, you know, hey, I'm getting ready to buy into a practice, or I'm leaving my W-2 and I'm going out on my own. I need to start. Sometimes it's just I pay way too much in taxes. This sucks. I need help. I try to say that's a translation game because they're going to tell me the common thing that they know. And, you know, again, I know you're uniquely situated to do this because you've got to do it in a digital environment to get people in the door, but clients say the thing that's bothering them, like, I don't ever want to pay taxes again. Well, guess what? I got your solution. I can get you to zero tax. What they mean is I want to keep all the money and pay none of the tax. Well, my solution gives me all the money. We're going to do a profit share, and I'm going to take all your profits and eliminate all your taxes. But that's not what clients want.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

So, how do you play this game to translate that info? And we've built what I think is a relatively good onboarding process to hear what clients say, take some space, validate the information with data in between, and then come back to them. And if we do it right, it's something like, hey, James, I heard you say you were frustrated with last year's process. You were blindsided because you had to write a $20,000 check in April. Well, here's how my process works. At the worst, you'd have known you had to write a $20,000 check in January. Does that fit for you or no? And then the clients will either opt in or opt out. That's my job is not to sell them at that point. It's here's how I do it, doesn't make sense. And if I can get the right people to the table, I'm not the right brand for everybody. I get it. And my personality is not for everybody. I get that too. But when we fit, it's a home run. And and you know, guys like you have kind of coached us along the way. But I'm I'm curious here too. Like in what I just said, how do you like get how do you translate? Because something we we struggle with. Like you want to put it like an SEO marketing, like pay too much in taxes, like you've got your keywords, but that doesn't always yield the right client. So prompt me in here a little bit on this. Like, how do you make that transition and how do you do that? We we customize everything, we're we're customized, like everything's a customized template. But what would your thoughts be on some of that? Because I'm not the only path. I know that.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah, no,

Digital Filters That Raise Close Rates

SPEAKER_00 9:22

it's a great question. And I want to come back to a point because I want to ask you about your sales process or just sales in general based off what you were saying there. Um, but yeah, to your point, it's really just it's not what is that the first thing that's being said, it's peeling back the onion. What is the the real root cause of what's happening? Like you said, I don't want to pay taxes anymore. No, you you want to keep all of your your money. Um, so it's yeah, when writing that copy, when writing the ad, it may not be so, for example, you're putting me on the spot here, Chris. I'm used to being in the interview chair, not the interviewee. Um, we used to do a lot of outbound messaging for our clients on LinkedIn. A lot of firms do it, a lot of people really suck at it. And I'm sure you probably get so many messages in your inbox all the time, and it's someone, hey Chris, see you work here, boom, it's a novel about what they do versus how can it actually help you? What is in it for you? So rather than hey Chris, um, here at our bookkeeping firm, you know, we're the best at bookkeeping and blah, blah, blah, we would approach it as, hey Chris, when was the last time you got all the support you needed from your from your current financial team? Hey Chris, when was the last time you got an up-to-date PL that told you exactly where you're bleeding cash? Now there's gonna be a dialogue that's getting started versus do you like your do you like your accountant? Do you do like do you have an accountant? Because if we're the best. Well, okay, everyone can say they're the best. But it's it's one, I think, similar to what was spoken about during the marketing panel, just being a pattern interrupt, but two, just knowing you got to know your audience, which is why niching down is so important, or knowing multiple industries. But if you know what the the true thing is that keeps them up at night, you approach it from that angle versus head on, and now it becomes a lot more of a conversation. I think that works really well.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Okay, and I think this aligns. So it did it, audience. We didn't plan any of this. So this is in order or game.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

See, this is why I host because I just rambled on there for half the episode. Um, Chris, I I want to ask you because the way you approach that, I'm guessing you probably have a lot of success. And this may you know come across and you're probably gonna be very humble with it, but I'm guessing you have a lot of success when it comes to sales conversations because you're approaching it from well, if I'm hearing you correctly and what they came to you asking for that one thing top of mind, you're going deeper and you're asking more things.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

So let me go two steps back to make sure I curate this for the audience, right? We are looking at the accounting process of tomorrow, not yesterday. So everything we do is digital. And sarcastically, I mean, I'm not shy to say this, like we still have some paper stuff that goes through the office, but if you can't send me a PDF inside of a secure portal, you're not my client. And I don't mean that to be rude to people, but that's the environment we live in. That's that's normal in today's world. So to build systems that accommodate what is not normal doesn't work well. So everything lead funnel, everything we do is this digital environment. So there's like digital layer one, then digital layer two, can you use our online calendaring? Because everything we do is by appointment. We don't do it on the fly. Digital layer three is can you upload information to us? So there's things that are going on even before the client gets to us to have that personal element where they're experiencing our brand. And I'm a little bit different because you know, you throw out the like closing statistics, we've got 70, 80% close, but it's because of this other filter. I don't want to do a lot of prospect meetings to figure out if I want to work with people or not. Let the system run for that. When I get face to face with people, we know we can help them solve a problem. The question is, do the fees line up, do the expectations line up, and do the personalities line up? So you're spot on in the sense of by the time we get to the conversation, we've tried to diagnose two or three things. The system's never perfect, there's always an exception. But the reality is that info gather. Like I tease people, I mean, it kind of feels like I'm examining everything and you're standing on the table naked. Yeah, we want your financial statements, we want all the stuff. Not because I care how much you spend at Costco, it's because it gives me perspective as to how your numbers flow so that I can speak to you as an intelligent advisor in your terms, not mine.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah. Because if if you're just taking everything at face value, I feel like now you're just an order taker, you're not the advisor. Yeah. And I I say this to everyone who we speak to where they're offering, you know, fractional CFO services, they're doing advisory. That's awesome. But the the average business owner doesn't search for fractional CFO near me because they don't know what a fractional CFO is. They're gonna come to you saying they need help with bookkeeping or they need help reducing their taxes. You need to ask enough questions and peel back those layers and, like you said, really get a true understanding of where that person's at to then lean into the advisory conversation because they don't know they need that yet. You do as the expert, and it sounds like that's what you do with your clients. You ask enough of the right questions. And I'm also guessing, Chris, if someone goes, Why are you asking me all these questions, but is this an interview? They're also probably not a fit for you because they don't understand the value of what you're trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, if somebody ever says, Is this an interview to us? I mean, my response is, yeah, I get the choice as to whether I work with you or not. You recognize that, right? I don't have to give you an engagement letter. It's a little bit of an admission process. Yeah, I love it. I like that because it preserves the integrity of our client base, which goes back to keeping the team happy and other things. We leave some money on the table sometimes doing that. And and you know, like your traditional growth-based type people kind of pick on me because of it, but we're okay with it. It's the space we're in, that's what we want to do, and you know, it's cool having your name on the wall.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah. Well, I mean, you can also make the argument, sure, you may be leaving a few dollars on the table, but how many headaches did you also not bring into your firm because now you know that that's kind of screams red flag client, or they don't fall into your processes. And if it's not in your process, now it becomes custom work, and custom work requires a lot more effort and just like on and on and on. So I like that you guys are strict and you know who your ideal client is and you have that process. So that's that's really cool to hear. Um, Chris, you guys have picked up

Awards, Trust, And Strategic Partnerships

SPEAKER_00 16:17

some incredible awards, Forbes, Thomas Router. If I did I pronounce that correctly again, I know I have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Thompson Router. Thompson Reuters, yeah. Man Ryder butchered it on the deal.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

My TPE, those aren't small recognitions by any stretch. What do you think you're actually doing differently that led that led you to those?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So what's funny is we we've kind of morphed over the years and started branding ourselves as an award-winning firm. Love it. People have actually asked the question, like, hey, do you trace chase the trophies or do you nominate yourself? Or some of these awards I didn't even know I was gonna get. Like I had no clue. So they're they're true honors in some senses. There are others that, yeah, there was a nomination process, and of course, you fill out your packets and do all the things. I mean, people know what's going on there. But at the end of the day, it all boils back down to small business, small business owner. I know what they want because I happen to be one too, just like you are. So I go through this journey of how can we set ourselves up in a way that speaks to something that is different. Uh, when I first started my firm, we at my old firm ran payroll in-house. I never had a passion for payroll. It's a necessary evil in my mind, but it is the most frequent engagement that exists for your clients. So you need to be present to serve it. And when I got into my firm, I think this illustrates everything you're asking. Clients were hesitant when I said, hey, we're gonna partner with some strategic third parties to process your payroll. Oh my gosh, what if it's wrong? What if it's, what if it's, what if it's I'm like, it's the same fear that you have today, you just know me. But let me rephrase it for you. You're paying them 50 bucks a month to get it right, or 75 or 150, whatever the number is, or you can pay me my hourly rate to do it, plus the surcharge for systems and everything else, because effective rate for a JDCPA to process payrolls, probably not in your firm's or in your company's budget. Oh, you know you're right. So the minute they started to look through, you actually are looking out in our best interest. And it's not a condemnation or props to payroll companies or anything like that. It's just an example. We steer in the lanes we want to be in, we're good at it. The things we don't want to be in, we'll partner with people, we'll find guys like James that can help us execute on the things we're not experts at. And because I have those candid conversations, it leads back to this other side of client trust, client buy-in. Um, I know that's a little bit of a flowery answer at the same time, but the reality is the clients reached out to me with like the JDCPA is a hook. And and everybody loves the idea of having an attorney on call just in case. You know how many clients call me just in case? Because if it's that big of a deal, you don't want me on the phone, you want a litigator on the phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's there's a comfort to it. Now, for the planning side, for the strategic, the transactional, all that stuff, yeah, it's awesome. So if you're a small business owner that's gonna be in growth mode, I am on call. I know what's going on with the financials, I can draft the documents, but it's not all about me. It's about meeting them where they are, making the sales process to close a business deal as easy as possible. If there's no business broker, it's gonna go hard. And if I'm on the seller side, we dictate terms. If you're on the buyer side, you got to jump through hoops. Again, if there's no broker, it's hard. Well, I can talk people through this emotional roller coaster. We've done it before. We've been there. I mean, I've got somebody who just signed a letter of intent and they're over the moon wanting to celebrate. And folks, that letter of intent means nothing. It is a promise ring, is my catchphrase with it. It's not a marriage. You're not signing anything, it's just a promise to make a promise at another time. People don't know that stuff. So when we can sit down shoulder to shoulder with folks and tell the stories like that, that's where I think it really shines.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, that's that's awesome. It's so well, so well articulated. So I want to touch on two quick things here. Um, well, we'll we'll we'll see what we can squeeze in as we're I don't want to take up all of your time here, Chris. But um, you mentioned team harmony and work-life balance in the same breath as um as those awards. How do you protect that? What does that look like in practice for you and and for your team members? Because I'm guessing you practice what you preach.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

We try to. And and the thing that everybody needs to realize is like I have a book written about time management. 168 hours is about a week. That's why it's 168 hours. Every day we all get the same 24 hours. What you choose to do with it's up to you. I don't want my team spending the majority of their life at work. If we do it right, it's a maximum of a third on a business day. It's just not the type of firm I want to run. It's not the work-life balance people want to have. So we started with how do we kind of assemble this in a healthy environment? Sure, I work overtime during tax season, but I get the luxury of going to Salt Lake and meeting James during not tax season. So that's the give and take that I think people need to figure out. The other side of it is candidly, I've just

Protecting Team Harmony And Time

SPEAKER_01 22:22

like I've got people that have specialties in different areas, and those are the kinds of customers that we onboard. The example I like to give is if you have somebody who has bartending or server experience, they need to be talking to your clients because that's the environment they've been in. So if you pay attention to skill sets and kind of get things aligned. Moms are really good at organizing people's lives. So let them. Our clients need organization. They're business owners that are all over the place. So if you look at those different things and allow people to focus on their natural attributes, usually the rest kind of falls in place.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

I I love what you just mentioned about team members who have hospitality experience. We're in the process of bringing on a new account manager, and that's never crossed my mind. And I until someone said it to me the other day of, oh, we look for candidates who have a background hospitality. I was like, wow, that seems so simple. Like, why didn't I think of that before? And that is front and center on our job description now, because you can teach the other things. It's hard to teach people skills. If they're good at people skills, the the the technical stuff for what we're looking for for this particular role, that's the easy part.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

And the unspoken thing in all of this is hospitality knows when to push back and when not to. And that's just as important with scope creep and everything else. I mean, yeah, when people don't know what you do for a living, it says tax on it, therefore, or it says marketing web lead, therefore it's James's problem. No, it's not. It depends. So I love the fact you're right in there and somebody got to you to get that in your head early.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, and now and now I have a lot of reassurance on that as well, hearing that from you. Um, Chris, with 168 hours, um, what was the most rewarding part of writing and publishing your book?

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So, what's interesting is I had the idea. Um, writing's not my favorite thing, even though I'm a I'm a lawyer. And it kind of on one of those, like, oh, should I do it? Should I not? It's it's a good marketing piece, it's a good validator for a lot of things. So a lot of people were encouraging me to do it. But what was my favorite thing was the aha moment. The book is built on a business plan. People are gonna look at it and be like, oh, I've seen these concepts before. I know what these things are. Here's the catch. I represent small businesses and small business owners. We have meeting transcripts, we have slide decks, we have tax returns, we have coaching materials. It was all pre-written. I just had to organize the damn thing. Yeah. So we started to pull all this together and obviously put it in a literary version rather than bullet points and business-y,

Writing 168 Hours From Real Work

SPEAKER_01 25:12

but that was when I got the aha moment of this book's already written, I just have to organize. I was like, I'm capable of that. We do that every day.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Interesting. That's cool. Yeah, I'm guessing it was, I don't know, like that I'm picturing a movie where just like everything's kind of coming together on the screen and it the whole picture was right in front of you. You had all the puzzle pieces on the table, and then you just saw it come to life. Uh, I need to get a copy of your book. I uh that's that's next on the list as soon as we wrap this episode up. And I encourage everyone who's listening to go grab a copy of 168 hours by Christopher C. Papen. Christopher, what should everyone do who's listening as soon as this episode is done? The number one thing they can take away to go either better themselves, better their business, just overall the action item they need to do when this episode is done before they roll into whatever podcast pops up on queue after. If it's not the Accounting Leads Now podcast.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah, so I need 30 minutes of somebody's week. That's it. And I would I I'm gonna drive some people bananas with this. But what I need is for 15 minutes, put everything away. Put your phone down, put your pen down, no notes, no writing, nothing, and think. Focus on the things that are important to you. Now somebody in their mind is like, well, but what if I have a good idea and I forget? If you forget, it wasn't that good of an idea. Cut the rope and move on. But that's the purpose of the 15 minutes is to focus on the first 15. Second 15,

The 30 Minute Weekly Planning Habit

SPEAKER_01 26:43

remember, I need 30. The second 15 is you write out, you pick the one thing that you think is gonna have the biggest impact, and you write out the things you're gonna do over the next week, days, months to execute on whatever that is. Here's the hard part. I did the easy part, I gave you the 30 minutes. The hard part is you get a calendar that and then go do it. But if you do it, you will make incremental improvement towards whatever that goal is.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

It's so powerful. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Christopher, thank you so much for coming on the Accounting Leads Now podcast. This was amazing. It was so great me and you at GrowCon. I'm so glad we got to have so many conversations and joke and go back and forth over the few days we're there. I'm pumped to see you at the next event. For those who want to continue the conversation with you, how can they get in touch with you? Where can they find you? Where can they find your book?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, uh, a couple of quick things. Uh Papinspeaks.com has all kinds of support materials for business owners, kind of the free hook, if you will, but lots of good material out there. If you look for my name, Chris Papen, P A P I N on LinkedIn, that's another great way. We push all kinds of stuff out there as legitimate free give back resources. Uh the books, either on Papin Speaks or on Amazon. Um, my request would be because it's a brand new offering, if you buy it, please review it. Give us some good reviews. We got to get over that hurdle so we can go do the next chapter or whatever's in in the future for me there. You advertising guys always have something I gotta go do. But those those would be the easy ones. That'll feed you back to firms, CPA law, whatever else that we got going on if if need be.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Awesome. Everyone listening, please go do that. Check check it out. Christopher, again, thank you so much for coming on. This was awesome. Loved having you on the show.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Same,

Where To Find Chris And Closing CTA

SPEAKER_01 28:28

man. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

That's a wrap on another episode of the Accounting Leads Now podcast. If you got something out of today's conversation, do me a favor. Hit subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave us a review wherever you're listening. It genuinely helps this show grow. And the bigger this community gets, the better the conversations we can bring you. Now, here's the part I actually care about most. If you're running a firm and you're still relying on word of mouth to bring in new clients, I want you to hear this. Referrals aren't a growth strategy. I'll say that again. Referrals are not a growth strategy. They're a hope strategy. If you're ready to stop hoping and start building a system that brings qualified prospects to you consistently, go to accountingleadsnow.com and book a call with my team. We work exclusively with accounting, bookkeeping, and tax firms. We'll look at your situation specifically and tell you what we would do if it was our firm on the line for bringing in new clients. And if you want to go deeper on your own first, I wrote a book called Book Solid Digital Marketing Strategies that actually work for accounting firms. It's the digital marketing playbook built specifically for accounting bookkeeping and tax firms. Link to grab a copy is in the show notes. Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you on the next one.