Almost Local #19 | Discover the Surprising Link Between Curiosity and Expat Success with Julie Pham 🔝🧠

🌎 🧠 In this episode of the Expat Experts Podcast, we sit down with Julie Pham—thought leader in leadership development, founder of CuriosityBased, and passionate advocate for fostering innovation through curiosity.

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https://curiositybased.com/

🎙️ Highlights of this episode:

• Julie’s personal expat journey and the lessons she’s learned navigating leadership across diverse cultures.
• The groundbreaking work of CuriosityBased and how curiosity fuels innovation and growth in organizations.
• The key to building thriving organizational cultures in a globalized world.

Whether you’re an expat navigating leadership in a foreign land, a professional curious about innovative strategies, or simply seeking inspiration, this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss!

👉 Tune in now and discover how curiosity can unlock new opportunities and perspectives in your life and work.

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Transcript

Intro
0:00
in this new episode of exper excerts we have an extraordinary guest Dr Julie fam
0:05
Julie is a Cambridge studied leader focused on leadership development and organizational culture she's also the
0:11
founder of curiosity based a consultancy focused on helping organizations Foster
0:17
curiosity to drive growth and Innovation today we'll talk with Julie about her
0:23
experience as an expert with also with leadership across different cultures as
0:28
well as we will dive on her work with curiosity based
0:36
strategies this is expat experts the podcast that dives into the fascinating lives of those who've lived and worked
0:42
across borders exploring the challenges experiences and insights they've gained along the
0:49
way before we start with the episode I want to remind to all the listeners that the best way to stay tuned with the
0:55
latest episodes is by hitting the button on subscribe here in YouTube and your favorite audio platform for extra
1:01
information about the podcast and check our one-on-one calls on how to create your own YouTube channel your own
1:08
podcast or become an expert check the website exper experts podcast.com or the
1:13
link in the description the exper Julie
The expat: Julie Pham
1:21
fam so in the first part of today's episode we want to first of all welcome
1:27
you Julie as as part of as a guest to the to xat experts thank you so much for
1:32
for your time today um let's talk a little bit about
1:38
your personal life and your experience as an expert um you have kind of a diverse background uh I suppose that
1:45
shape you also a little bit around but um and I suppose it also affected your
1:51
current work and how you deal with leadership so I think the first question it's mandatory on the which countries
1:58
have you lived as an expert actually and or how how this Journey Begins yes so uh so I have lived in
2:08
England Germany France and Vietnam as an
2:13
expat wow okay that's not a short list that's quite some places so you
2:20
said Vietnam as the last one but you are actually coming from a Vietnamese family
2:26
as far as I understood you yeah I was born in Vietnam but I left when I was 2 months old and so we came to the us as
2:35
boat people and so that was in 1979 I grew up in the US my parents never went
2:41
back and I actually went back for the first time when I was 22 years old and so of all those countries that I listed
2:48
Vietnam was the country that I lived in the longest as an expat so I consider it
2:55
because I'm American and when I first came to Vietnam I was actually learning Vietnamese so I I consider myself an
3:01
expat in Vietnam even though I was born there was it the first country that you
3:08
went no the first country was actually the first country was actually England so I my expat journey is really focused
3:17
actually around my studies around my research so after I graduated from
3:22
college I was able to get a scholarship to go to England to get my PhD at
3:28
Cambridge and so I spent a few years in in the UK and then in my research I
3:33
lived in France and I and I lived in well actually it was a relationship that brought me to Germany and then a lots of
3:41
studies that brought me and research that brought me to Vietnam and so I went back and forth in Vietnam um over the
3:47
course of uh actually I think I was there for a total
3:55
of a total of maybe four years on and off in Vietnam okay not
4:02
bad it's a it's it's when you start feeling like that might become a place
4:08
that you live like permanently know like I think there is always this threshold well and also when I went to
4:15
the when I went to England that was actually my first time using my passport so growing up my family and I we didn't
4:21
travel we didn't my parents worked all the time so we didn't go on vacations and the idea of foreign travel was
4:27
considered a luxury and and so the first time I went to study was actually and
4:34
was actually the first time I left the country I'm not counting
4:39
Canada okay I that's something that I wanted to ask you actually if like being daughter
4:46
of a Vietnamese refugees shape your approach on living outside like in the
4:52
sense of like I me I suppose what you just said the fact of like needing to hard work of your parents and not having
4:58
too much time to travel being the first time that you leave the country it's to leave outside of the country that's
5:03
already like a shocking experience but was there anything else that that like shape your approach on how to
5:10
live absolutely because I think growing up Vietnamese in America it requires I'm
5:18
bicultural and it requires so even though actually it was up until age five I spoke Vietnamese and then from uh and
5:25
I grew up in a time when assimilation was really stressed and so a lot of my
5:31
uh a lot of kids my age we we stopped speaking our native language once we entered the school system because a lot
5:36
of parents dress oh we have to assimilate and um but I mean even without the language there is still
5:43
there is still Vietnamese culture that I had at home and then being a American at
5:49
school and trying to fit in and so anytime actually once I started to live abroad it was just oh it's just the
5:56
constant adaptation and I actually have a funny story about when I realized I was a I was a foreigner uh so I went to
6:04
Berkeley for my undergrad and they had the International House the I house and that's where all the international students went and I remember as an
6:10
undergrad I was just oh they're kind of weird they're International students and then my first year at Cambridge I was in
6:18
this I think I was in an extracurricular dance class or something and I was talking to an undergrad and then he made
6:25
some remark about me being a foreigner and I realized oh I'm the international
6:32
student now and so it's just I think it's about context and and realizing oh
6:39
context changes which means my identity in that context change because in the US
6:44
I'm American and I am the I am the local and yet I can that can quickly change
6:51
just depending on where I am my identity yes of course I mean I suppose
6:59
also it's bringing this to duality of of of cultures in your case no and it's like I suppose your parents identify
7:06
themselves as Vietnamese and you are the first generation that are there identifying yourself as as American but of course you have a a cultural
7:12
background that it's home um your parents in and then also representing
7:18
and being abroad actually is also representing asian-americans too because I think a even in Europe a lot of uh
7:27
people think oh American means white or black white American and so I I remember
7:32
when I lived in France and I would say my name is Julie which in it's actually
7:37
a French name Julie right people I could see people's relief because they saw my face and this would be in French so they
7:44
assume that I'm from Asia and then I'm going to give them a really difficult to pronounce name and she's oh she's
7:49
American and so it was uh U and understanding those different nuances of what it means to be Asian in different
7:57
countries as well of Asian Heritage AG I remember when I was in the UK um an Englishman said why do
8:04
Americans always why do asian-americans always americanize their names and that's when I realized that Asians in
8:11
England they actually keep their Asian name and yet the part of that assimilation at Le of my generation was
8:17
to to have an American name it's this whole culture around like
8:24
okay we are here it was difficult to arrive to this country and a little bit The American Dream let's say like this
8:29
not probably involved into okay my kids need to raise as much as the cultural
8:35
thing which I suppose in in other parts of the world this didn't happen too much you said something that picked my
8:42
attention in there and it's that during your expert time you were going back and forthward to Vietnam because of studies
8:48
what what were you studying actually what what was your relation to Vietnam at that point of time so this is when I
8:55
was pursuing my PhD research and so the first year that I lived in Vietnam was
9:01
just for language studies so that was a whole year where all I did was study Vietnamese and then by the end I
9:07
realized wow my Vietnamese is good enough that I think I can do research in this and so then my my dissertation was
9:13
a biography of a South Vietnamese communist revolutionary and so he was born in 1911
9:19
he led the 1945 revolution in Saigon against the French and uh and he was my
9:25
research topic and so I kept going back to Vietnam to to interview him to do
9:31
archival research uh so that was that was the reason why I kept spending a lot
9:36
of time in Vietnam nice sounds a very interesting topic I think we we can do a second
9:43
episode about that point um can you share some of the
9:48
cultural adjustments that you have in in in these different countries that you lived I suppose it's very different for
9:54
you to go to a country like UK where the language is still the same no then suddenly somewhere Vietnam you said that
10:01
you were speaking the language did you speak French for example when you arrived to France for no no so all so it
10:07
was different in each of the countries and so I think the first time in living in England actually really helped me understand how American I am and so even
10:16
with the same language so for example I would say hey how far is it to get from Cambridge to London and people would
10:23
actually tell me in distance and that's when I realized oh Americans think in terms of time is it
10:29
40 45 minutes by train is an hour and a half traffic is it see I if you take the
10:36
express bus how long is it and I never even thought about how Americans we even
10:41
though the words are how far is it what we're really asking is how long is it
10:47
going to take I actually have no concept of distance you can tell me this many miles that doesn't mean anything to me I
10:53
just think about how much time is it going to take to get there and so those were uh there was that I also
10:59
remember feeling really unattractive in the UK because people
11:06
don't give eye contact so when you enter a room I'm used to people looking up and
11:11
looking at me and then but in the UK a lot of people just it's considered rude
11:17
to look at people directly in the eye and so but that gives that sense of oh
11:23
there's I'm I'm not uh they don't want to look at me and so uh so those are
11:29
just some of the the things that I picked up I also learned how to eat keep my my knife in my right hand and my fork
11:35
in my left hand the whole time so because in the US we switch and that's kind of an efficiency thing too it's
11:41
just oh I'm going to go with whatever's stronger which is I'll switch uh I'll cut with my I'll cut with my knife and
11:48
then I'll switch and put the fork in my right hand and in the when I was in uh
11:53
England I learned no you have to keep your knife in your right hand the entire time so the whole politeness part of
12:01
like to do not do do it proper proper British say like this yes I think France
12:07
also has this kindy of also yeah I don't know if yes and so in France I mean
12:13
actually of all the Lang like French is I started learning French just before
12:19
and so my French was never really that strong and so um and so I so actually I
12:26
would have Vietnamese friends in France because there's actually a pretty because of Theon history there's pretty
12:32
big Vietnamese community so in France I would find myself sometimes speaking in
12:37
Vietnamese to communicate or or in English or in uh I was able to get into
12:42
the the intermediate level French when I was studying French there and this is really key actually for anyone who's
12:49
considering being uh living abroad is if you if you get into the beginning that
12:55
means you're pretty much especially if you're an English speaker you're pretty much going to be speaking English
13:01
but if you get into the intermediate it's just your people are coming from really different backgrounds and they will there's much more of a chance that
13:08
U that I'll be speaking um that you'll be speaking the language that you're learning and also I was studying at alas
13:13
Franz which was the local school and not one of the fancy private schools and um oh no not
13:21
Al it was a it was the local public one and someone actually let me his address
13:27
so I could do that so I could actually qualify for the the the the cheap version essentially so without being
13:35
registered in France you access their public education system okay okay I got
13:41
it well if it worked it worked no like yeah so in total how as a grad student
13:50
especially in total how many years were you living abroad then like you you said like four years in Vietnam but also like
13:58
how many years so pretty much I from a from 20 from 22
14:06
until 208 no no 29 29 so I guess that's seven
14:13
yeah so I spent most my 20s actually bouncing around and uh in in those
14:20
different countries and mainly because of studies like it wasn't main mainly because I was
14:26
pursuing my PhD okay and so mostly because of research did it in influence it a little
14:34
at all what you are doing currently like absolutely absolutely it is ABS because
14:40
I think that the what I learned was about adapting and so I think that there's a particular way of
14:46
adapting as a minority in the US and then there is a way of adapting as a
14:53
foreigner as an expat and and so but that I growing up I
14:58
already had this intuitive sense of how to adaptt and yet that became that was honed even more when I lived abroad and
15:08
I think it's I just noticed things a lot more I would just notice oh for example
15:13
in Germany there I've never been a place where the trans public transportation is always on time I'm just like how is that
15:21
possible not that anymore that there's okay back then I mean I was just there
15:27
was a it was and also people were very focused on the
15:32
rules and and so they had that rhyme of of no jaywalking it was something like
15:38
some German friends taught me was like red man dead man you can't you shouldn't cross the the street and so um whereas
15:45
like in Vietnam that's very different people are constantly there's no sense of traffic
15:53
loss yeah I I can relate to that like I lived four years in Germany and now living in Greece I think Greece is more
16:00
like Vietnam and and Germany it's very strict in that sense so yes I totally
16:05
relate to the fact of like but even like you risk really having a fee like there is no cars at all and you cross in red
16:12
and if by any chance there is a police officer there they will find you will tell you he you're cross in red and I'm
16:18
just like yes but there's nobody here this can happen so there's don't
16:24
cross in red there's this whole range because in Vietnam for example I mean it made me
16:29
realize when living in Vietnam how litigious the US is so for example the way that you drive in
16:34
Vietnam uh because I drove a moped is it's just focus on what's in front of
16:40
you focus what's in front of you and you trust the people behind you are focus on what's in front of them and then if
16:46
there's an accident the more expensive vehicle is always responsible for paying
16:52
doesn't matter whose fault it is so I remember getting into an accident with a school kid who basically
16:59
drove cycled right into my moped but because I had the moped and he had the bicycle I was
17:06
responsible okay yeah in the US you think about everything is about laws well did you do this did you do
17:13
this where it's there more about a certain different kinds of
17:18
logic I I I assume like that's also one of the of the co like questions that I
17:24
wanted to ask you related to this is like how did you overcome like cultural barriers
17:30
be different between these different countries that you lived in like because I assume there is a lot of things and a
17:36
lot of learning in in very fast pace maybe like you need to learn things fast no as as in countries are very different
17:44
I think that the first step is actually accepting it is going to be different and there's no right or wrong because I
17:50
actually would see other expats who would constantly complain oh I can't believe the way they do things here it's not the right way to do it and it's just
17:57
it's just different we have to understand the logic and and so I was actually I'm really proud of the fact
18:04
that when I was in um Vietnam I I had a lot of local friends had a lot of Vietnamese friends and a lot of other
18:12
expats didn't have that they kind of just strictly hung out with the xack community and um I can't say that was
18:18
always the case when I was in England I was really with the international students because what I
18:24
found was the the students at Cambridge they kind of the the English students I
18:30
should say kind of stuck with themselves if they if they' gone to undergrad and then went on to grad school at Cambridge
18:35
and so it's different in every context um but I think that first is just accepting hey I have to adapt and then
18:43
finding being practicing curiosity around that I I know uh for me time is
18:50
really I'm I'm very much about punctuality and growing up my mom was always late uh and it really would
18:58
bother me and I a lot of anxiety and yet when I lived in Vietnam I really understood it more because in
19:03
Vietnam they have this time is rubber and if you go to a wedding you can expect everyone's going to be late
19:09
by an hour and a half and oh and uh and I remember people would constantly
19:15
cancel on me last minute and I would get really irritated because there was just
19:21
they must know how is this constantly happening with different people and this is and then I talked to a Vietnamese
19:27
friend and he said oh oh yeah they know it's just the reason why they waited
19:33
till the last minute is because they wanted to make it an emergency because if they tell you
19:40
beforehand then they then they're showing they have to make a CH they're making a choice and the choice is not to
19:45
be with you if they wait until the last minute they had no choice and so it's
19:51
just oh so they're trying to be respectful and it was really getting interested about the logic
19:59
rather than getting annoyed about it it's very interesting it's just like how how culturals approach every every
20:07
things no basic things in life like meeting a friend for a coffee at the end like uh there is like a very structural
20:14
way of FL if I have something else or I need to Define telling it or the German
20:20
Way no that you lived in Germany also I suppose you can relate to that talking to someone can you have a coffee oh yeah
20:26
next week Wednesday between seven and 730 and okay I will put it in myar follow
20:34
through yeah yeah it's not just the calendar is in the calendar yes because in the US it could
20:40
even be I mean especially I'd say in the Pacific Northwest people can say oh we should have
20:45
coffee but that's kind of a way of ending a conversation yeah and so they don't really mean it so of course of
20:53
course no no that's that's the typical thing you find someone that you haven't seen in three years in the street no and you say I should grab a drink someday
21:01
you never talk with that person anymore no and that's a that's also like ways of doing actually I also wanted to ask you
21:08
because you you are now working with with leaders of companies and you work a lot with leadership on how to define
21:15
leadership I think you also put curiosity in there which is also one of the points that we will talk later a
21:20
little bit more into it but half how did you notice like very
21:27
different St of leadership across the countries that you lived in how do how
21:32
did you find this so I so most of the time when I was
21:38
living abroad I was in Academia so I'll say put that through that academic lens first of all and that they have that has its own culture as well but in I I
21:46
noticed that in the in England the the way that academics are is much more
21:53
quiet whereas in the US it's it's uh there could be a lot more
21:59
asserting themselves I have my strong opinions I'm this public intellectual and in the US I remember there was this
22:05
one Professor who he was the he was he was later kned he was just the the kind
22:10
of the the highest a very well respected professor and yet he the way
22:18
he would we would be in these um uh
22:23
seminars and then he would just ask one simple question at the end he' never it
22:28
wasn't it wasn't show offy that's what I realized that there's this difference that was one and then in in Vietnam I
22:35
would say that it's much more about positional power and S and difference there's a there is an assumed difference
22:42
because of age and because of seniority and so that
22:48
so already in a way a leader doesn't have to they earn their the respect
22:54
because of their position already because the students will already defer
22:59
to them and there's all these you can't say this you can say this to someone who
23:05
is much more senior whereas I think in the US you could have people who are actually much younger much more Junior
23:11
but if they've published a lot and they're in the media and they're very vocal then they could actually be much
23:18
more there's there's almost an element of being a leader also means having to have an Entertainer quality to it and so
23:26
yes I would say that those are kind of three uh how I saw academic leadership in the
23:31
UK the US and in uh in Vietnam and again it's not until I go away do I realize do
23:39
I form my opinions of the US because now I can see it in contrast it's I didn't
23:44
have that sense because I was it was the water that I swam in so the air that I breathe makes sense maybe entering just
23:52
a little bit into the second part of the episode but then we will go out a bit but I'm curious about like do you
23:58
believe that organizations should benefit or could benefit of integrating other kind of like cultural approaches
24:05
on leadership into their organizations like not sticking only with the idea of course International companies I assume
24:13
this is something that they work on because if you have an international leader of a company from Japan it's
24:18
different from having it from I don't know from Russia no and then you need to learn how to navigate this leadership
24:24
differences in the cultures itself but do you ever apply what you learned
24:29
traveling and being an expert in leadership with the people that you work and with the clients that you work on
24:35
saying okay in this country they do it like this have you tried to apply that a little bit into in changing know the the
24:42
organizations yeah I wouldn't say that it's the exact oh here they do it like
24:47
this or here they do it like this I think it's the the underlying we need to adapt we need to adapt because that is
24:55
where whatever context that we're in is sometime and and I can share more about
25:00
that later on but just that the adaptability is what is key to to cross
25:07
to being able to even actually engage in cross-cultural communication as I mentioned earlier there were some people who were just oh I don't need to adapt
25:15
they need to adapt to me they're doing it wrong that kind of ethnocentric View and that is not going to if you carry
25:23
that I mean I think maybe that was the way it that decades ago but it doesn't work now it doesn't matter actually if
25:30
you are a local company or a a international company because there's so
25:37
much diversity especially in the US around workers and where they're coming from and also Generations
25:46
too yeah I mean it makes sense no it's a lot of like I assume like with the
25:51
changes and also the world it's getting more globalized around like change also the way that we access this kind of
25:58
information information it's not so you can also adapt to things even though you are not physically in the place where
26:05
that thing is happening and that also can can see you know like especially I
26:10
don't know I see it with the Japanese culture a lot of people follows rules of Japanese culture being outside of Japan
26:18
just because they like the traditions of Japanese culture and these kind of things it's interesting if if you ever
26:23
applied them like that but it makes a lot of sense that you grab a little bit like of the pieces that that makes it
26:29
relevant for for leadership at the end yes there's a lot of the the the lean
26:35
process right is really from from Japan yeah
26:41
um can you share any culture shock that you remember like okay being in in some
26:47
of the countries that you live and saying okay this is not what I was expecting at all oh my gosh I remember in
26:55
Germany I was um with my partner and his friends and and it was a sunny day and
27:03
and they were just oh I mean they they kind of just stripped like and like it
27:09
was like sunbathing and it was like going topless and I was just oh and it just made me realize how prudish could
27:14
have just in the US you just like you don't do that you are not and also I think in the
27:20
US there are certain ideas there's a lot of body shaming that happens and so the
27:25
only people who have the right to bear their bodies are those who really fit thin bodies whereas what I noticed in
27:32
Europe and Germany there was hey it's it's it's natural to do
27:37
this we can go topless in our own backyards and it doesn't matter what kind of body you
27:44
have so I would say that that was a big culture shock the whole nudist culture
27:49
of Germany is if you go into us there's a lot like there's a lot of discomfort
27:55
around that right because it's it's not it's with sexuality whereas in what I
28:01
found in Germany was it's just more oh this is just the natural more being comfortable and uh and and open and so
28:08
that was that was one of the big shocks um another kind of fun one was how much they in Germany how much they value
28:15
bread going to a bread shop they would weigh it as if it's meat that's how you
28:20
sell bread right and so that was that was also it kind of just made me think about oh what do we'
28:29
how we sell things can actually show what we what we value and that that
28:35
they're bread is something that they that is as precious as me yeah it's I think it's very cultural
28:41
and and it shows also like when you enter a German bakery and you start seeing different kinds of RADS and
28:46
you're just like what's this like what how why why there is so many different
28:51
kinds of Breads and why do they taste good all of them it's just like I don't
28:57
know I mean I come from from a from a family that it's always with Fred so that's not something that surprised me
29:02
too much but the quantity of Fred and the different kinds and everyone has its
29:07
own bread for everything and it's just like okay that's a whole different thing you know like I I never we always it
29:14
with suppose like French like with the baguette or with a chabata or something
29:20
don't weigh their baguettes right because it's just the bagette it's pretty much in pastries but in Germany they have all these different kinds of
29:26
dark Breads and Breads and and then another culture shock when I was in Vietnam and this is actually I realized
29:32
there's a difference between being in the South and the north so in the for most of my time I lived in the North in
29:38
Hanoi and people would just come by and just drop by un without telling you
29:45
beforehand just come to visit and that was a big shock for me because I'm used to hey you call you plan a visit you
29:53
give me some some notice I didn't know that you were just going to drop by and that was actually really liberating once
29:59
I realized that was the case because that meant I could just drop by and I started doing that as well and
30:05
so it was actually really liberating to just be oh hey I'm here um can I have
30:10
dinner and so and so uh yeah that that was once I once I overcame the shock it
30:18
was it was I embraced it it's a little very curious no because at the same time you were saying okay they can cancel you
30:25
in last minute because of this fact of making at an emergency and then just like respecting that or not telling un
30:32
at bands but then they show up without announcing so it's very much like the opposite of like if you have a a
30:39
schedule thingy you don't respect the schedule until the last minute then you cancel it but but showing an advice more
30:45
casual that's I think it's much more fluid that all of the those boundaries are much more
30:51
fluid cool I wanted to ask you about a little bit on like personal recommendation or
30:58
memories that you had from these times abroad but let me ask you a last question before we go to that and it's
31:06
how was going back home because the repatriation part of experts is
31:12
something that a lot of people ignores but when you've lived like in your case
31:17
seven years abroad the home that you remember from when you left normally when you go back it's not the same one
31:24
so how was the going back to the us uh in your case yes it was that's such a
31:32
great question I felt that I had changed and so many other people hadn't and
31:38
Seattle so I came back to Seattle that's where I grew up and so Seattle had changed a lot so there were actually lots of transplants in Seattle but the
31:45
local seattleites the people who I went to school with I mean there were some of them who had lived um who done studies
31:53
abroad but a lot of them hadn't and so I just felt wow my whole world view is really different and and I think it
31:59
actually helped me um when I came back to Seattle I started to have really
32:04
diverse friends from all just all ethnicities
32:10
nationalities ages uh class groups and I think part of
32:15
that adapting constantly adapting really helped me and so I'm actually really proud now of how the of the diversity of
32:23
the communities that I feel comfortable being with and and how I can um how I
32:30
can be with very different groups of of people so I think that helped me with
32:35
the with coming back it was just oh I can find this here and so I it made me
32:41
seek it out and I I knew I also had to be really proactive and and also it's always fun to then find even just the
32:48
Global Citizens right within the this community people other people who've lived in different countries as well and
32:55
and so that was like being the international student in England which just oh who are other people who've lived and that and that forms another
33:03
Community cool so now just going a little bit into
33:09
personal recommendations and stuff like do you remember any musical or
33:15
cultural Traditions that you still like take from time to time or that last an
33:22
impression on you from the country yes so I would say for Vietnam is there are
33:28
many different ethnic minorities in Vietnam and they have there's the the
33:35
Museum of ethnology in Hanoi that actually has the real life models of
33:41
homes of different ethnic minorities and so I think that's a really easy way to
33:46
go and see the to experience that and and also if you can then just actually
33:51
go um go to the areas where there are ethnic minorities because it's uh the
33:58
way people dress the language what what people eat it's it's all really different I still remember my friend
34:05
taking me he was a uh he was an ethnic minority in the mountainous regions and
34:12
where there you only harvest rice once a year so in uh in the southern part in
34:18
you harvest rice twice a year but when you harvest rice only once a year the
34:23
rice is amazing it tastes so different all the nutrients it's as if all the
34:28
nutrients are there and I I'll never forget that and so just I think go and explore if if you get to Vietnam is make
34:35
sure you explore the different regions go outside the cities cool I actually wanted to ask you
34:42
about foods and drinks that you enjoy and that you'll remember with a special
34:47
love let's say like this from the from the regions you lived in um you already entered in the r but maybe there is this
34:54
like oh I missed oh there's so much food I mean well you know the thing is
34:59
growing up my because my parents worked all the time I didn't actually eat that much Vietnamese food we had kind of
35:04
three we had pizza we had spaghetti and we had one Vietnamese pork dish and that
35:10
was I had that constant rotation and um so for me variety isn't that important
35:16
yet so when when I lived in Vietnam that was when I got exposed to all of these
35:21
different foods and their different regional foods as as well so uh it's
35:28
uh yeah so there's so there's so many different foods and then uh and then in
35:34
I mean I think in all of those countries they I discovered Indian food in England that's what I really loved so the Indian
35:42
food there is delicious indeed it's day if if you okay you need
35:50
to eat good you eat Indian or Pakistani normally but I would I wouldn't go for
35:55
fishion ships but yeah sure yeah I mean pop pop food from time to time it's okay um so I think you already
36:04
entered a little bit on the recommendations of what you would recommend someone who visits Vietnam which is like get out of the big cities
36:11
explore the the rural parts of it is there any reason of Vietnam that you say okay you cannot miss that like this is
36:19
the spot to go yes or yes when you go to Vietnam for example I mean I uh palong Bay is
36:27
beautiful I think it's one of the UNESCO seven wonders of the world and so
36:33
definitely uh visiting visiting there a is the the the the original Royal City
36:41
and that's in the central region and so visiting there is is also um I would
36:46
highly recommend that and for England I would actually recommend going to Cambridge into
36:52
Oxford and because there's I think just going to those those it's the campuses
36:58
are so different than American campuses and you kind of just get the sense of
37:03
wow this is where so much knowledge was created and so yeah I think that's also
37:09
really a special experience too nice are there any books films or any
37:17
resources that you would recommend anyone to read or check or see before
37:23
going to I suppose especially Vietnam also because you studied about it but I don't know I don't know if there is any
37:30
film that you say okay this is historically correct and this is how it how how you should learn about the
37:36
Vietnamese uh War for example on the revolution or communist times yeah I
37:42
mean I think that's a little tricky because the South Vietnamese experience outside of Vietnam is quite different from the Vietnamese experience within
37:48
Vietnam because of the communism in Vietnam and then and all and my family because I consider myself South
37:54
Vietnamese so there was a country called South Vietnam that then yes that then
37:59
lost and so I mean if to kind of understand maybe more of the um the South Vietnamese perspective I would
38:06
actually recommend Journey from the fall uh which was actually about the boat people and uh boat people in prison camp
38:14
experience um I can't think of any film that I would recommend that's got
38:19
English subtitles uh in in Vietnamese I will say
38:24
that my favorite film is actually a German film and it is good by Lenin and do you know
38:30
that film of course of course you know and I love that film because I think
38:36
it's uh first of all it's a funny German film which I think a lot of films German films that make it in into the not
38:42
outside Germany are not funny but I think it really shares it shares
38:49
the the experience of the Berlin Wall falling and I think that was so
38:55
transformational for the country and so I think to watch that I think people can really get a sense I mean I know there
39:00
are lot lots of movies around the Holocaust but I think that that's actually when the country became United
39:06
and all the feelings around that I think that's a really great way to to understand Germany definitely I I really like this
39:13
movie also I haven't watched it in a long time so maybe I I will rewatch it soon
39:20
um with that said I would say we can jump directly to the second part of the episode um MH
39:28
hey there everyone if you're loving this episode so far and you want to stay tuned with other expert experiences make
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The expert: Fostering curiosity and developing as leaders
40:05
session today with that said let's go back to the episode the expert fostering curiosity
40:12
and developing As Leaders turning a little bit into work related relation
40:19
you have like living a little with the exper part uh so you basically work with
40:26
leadership development um you try to Foster curiosity with
40:32
organizations and you consult them um so you have a consultancy company agency I don't know
40:39
um how to call it called curiosity based uh what can you explain a little bit
40:47
what it's what you do what work you do yeah I can describe it so so uh think
40:54
what the so we help people practice curiosity in the world starting in the workplace because that's where we spend
41:00
most of our waking hours so I say that because a lot of our it's not we as a
41:06
business we we make most of our money through working with organizations and yet we feel actually the the real impact
41:13
is is individuals everywhere and part of the reason why we have this is because I think that we live in a very polarized
41:20
world and that there is a in especially in the US there's a sense of right or wrong true or false and as I think
41:29
that what I've ex my my expat experience
41:34
has and being also bicultural helps me understand there is no true or false
41:39
there's just different there's all this nuance and multiple truths can coexist at the same time so what we really help
41:46
people do is is appreciate that because when you can appreciate that that's
41:52
actually at the core of empathy and being able to work with one
41:57
another and so and so we approach it from this how do we practice curiosity and I think of curiosity as a practice
42:02
that has these three elements the first is self-awareness so how do I be curious about myself practice inward curiosity
42:09
the second is relationship building how do I be curious about other people and
42:14
ask them questions and learn their stories and how do I share with them my stories because they're going to have
42:19
reactions to my stories and that back and forth is reciprocity and that's how we build relationships and the third is
42:26
clear communication how do we share specific examples and stories with one another instead of talking in these
42:32
generic vague terms and so we work with organizations we've developed all of
42:39
these different workshops essentially um that are around organizational culture so I have a book called seven forms of
42:45
respect uh around around goal setting belonging and inclusion and
42:51
communication skills and so whenever I work with an organization just try to find what are you struggling with right
42:57
now and then just okay well let's let's take you through this and
43:03
and these are learning experiences I do not do training we do not do training
43:08
because training is actually hey you can test on training that's the you're communicating
43:14
knowledge that can be tested so you should train on safety issues on a factory right there there is
43:21
a right or wrong there maybe different ways of doing it but um but what we
43:26
actually do is encourage people to to learn about themselves and learn about
43:32
one another and do that in the the workplace because school learning shouldn't stop
43:38
at school the workplace can actually be employers can actually create learning
43:46
their companies into learning organizations where there's continual learning and people feel invested in and
43:52
they feel that they are growing and if that doesn't happen then
43:57
and I mean then they people may come to the workplace and they feel oh my labor is
44:03
being extracted I'm only coming here to do the thing that I'm good at to make you money and it's a very transactional
44:11
relationship and yet I think a lot of people actually want to feel invested in they want to feel that they can grow and
44:17
then they'll give more to their organization if they if they feel
44:22
that I see so it's it's not only you and consider that coaching anyway either
44:29
like it's not really it's not either training either coaching it's more like an how how do you define it how you
44:36
frame it like I mean I really I we we just because what I like to do is come in we we'll take them through learning
44:42
experiences come in shake things up and then get them thinking and then there could be a team coach who comes in later
44:50
on or maybe they've learned how to do it themselves so because I meant with Consulting and with coaching it's much
44:56
more customized right it's much more oh and I'm going to be with you and take you through all of
45:02
these uh these conversations for me the way that we work it's much more uh so think about other companies
45:09
like Franklin cvy seven habits of highly effective people uh Speed Of Trust we
45:15
come in we do our learning experiences we we help people see things that they that they can't currently see and then
45:21
they we we give them tips and resources this is how you continue to do it on your own uh so that's that's how the
45:28
business works I'm I'm not there for this long engagement with them I'm there for these periods of time to help them
45:35
practice and to give them some tools and and yeah I actually believe
45:40
that they can do that themselves if they make the time so I don't need to be we don't need to be with them all the time
45:46
as long as they're saying okay we learned some things now we got to go it's just oh if you think about a
45:53
um we think of it more if we're a boot camp hey let's show you some moves and then you can go and do this by yourself
46:00
and then there are some people who are just no I constantly I'm only going to exercise if I go in with my trainer we don't do that she's no you can actually
46:06
do this by yourself and we don't think that's the best use of our time too to keep doing this again and again and
46:13
watching you trainers are very important I and yet that's not what we do it's more more like a consultant in
46:21
the starting like starting the conversations because a lot of times people don't make time for the learning
46:28
together they know it's a good thing to do they know it's a good thing to have conversations with one another we create
46:34
the initial space to do it and then we even say oh we're going to assign you
46:39
partner so you can continue to do it on your own and then they're just oh okay I have homework okay I can do this I've
46:47
started the conversation this feels good so it's uh we think of as we start the
46:52
process for them so it's a kickstarting of of the thing that then they can
46:58
continue on their own as organization or as a team um how much of the work that
47:04
you do it's focused because when I check your website for example I was reading about what you do and how do you work
47:10
with it uh it talks a lot about leadership but do you work always with
47:16
the leaders the word leader is difficult to Define leader right and so I mean
47:24
leadership development is also just it's it's one it's an easy way for people to understand this we've worked with
47:30
leadership teams we also work with I actually really enjoy when we can come in and do it with the whole
47:36
organization and maybe we're doing it in groups and so and because that way everyone is it's creating the sense of
47:43
oh I can learn the CEO can learn from someone who's the intern and and we're
47:48
all learning from one another because we just have different perspectives and this is kind of just tying back to the
47:54
expat part and living abroad is just oh we can we can all be learning from one
48:02
another just by seeing how different we are and so that's what we really try to get people to do to to
48:09
appreciate that there are differences and so even for example I have a book
48:14
called seven forms of respect it's just we can see we can agree how respect feels to feel seen heard acknowledged
48:23
appreciated we disagree on what does it look like what does it look like so for example I
48:30
said in England looking people I'd get a uh people not looking me in the eye and
48:38
and that's just that's that's not disrespectful it's just that's one that's what one person they're
48:44
considering that respectful and so to move away from because I think that there's this right now a binary of
48:51
disrespectful respectful and I don't think that's I think it's just like there's lots of
48:57
different ways to show respect and that's what we help people appreciate which actually is pretty
49:03
radical to see oh there can be different ways and I also want to be very clear and then there's illegal I'm not saying
49:11
anything if you are bullying someone or assault assault or that's that's just
49:16
that's against the law so that's not about disrespect that's that's a different category
49:23
yeah why s that's it's one of the questions that I had in my mind like you
49:29
have a book so let's let's talk about the book first like you have a book called seven forms of respect it's a
49:35
guide basically as far as I understood to to find these ways of like dealing
49:41
with what you just were saying like what is respect from a different perspective and what can be disrespectful no why why
49:48
using this number seven what is the magic behind the number seven yeah yeah so so
49:56
first I just want to say uh because one of the big misconceptions about the book is that we you you should do all seven
50:02
it's not that case it's more of these are seven forums and I'm going to prioritize these these
50:07
two and the other there's some that I'm like I'm okay with and others like I don't like it all I don't think of that
50:13
as respectful so I want to be really clear it's not about getting all seven um for those of your listeners who know
50:19
five love languages think about it more like five love languages not like seven habits of highly effective now to answer
50:25
your question actually at first I started with six and they weren't the same seven that we have now and it was
50:30
actually so I had a hypothesis that there were six and so I started doing research and focus groups and then there
50:36
were seven that emerged and I also want to be really clear we're not strict on these seven
50:44
because the purpose isn't to say you are this type this is what you always want
50:50
because we actually think of respect as dynamic as relative as subjective and it's contradictory and it changes is
50:56
depending on the context so the way that I want respect might be different when I'm with my boss versus with my peer
51:04
versus with someone who reports to me and it might be different if I'm talking to a customer versus a vendor right and
51:11
it could also be different if I'm talking to my parent versus my brothers and so versus my friends so it's
51:17
constantly Dynamic and that's one of the things that so seven forms of respect is actually about getting curious about
51:25
respect okay it's getting curious that it why it's changing why is it changing
51:31
let me try to understand what makes it change so people can can understand uh
51:37
the context so but going back to your y7 so that's the research we went back to
51:44
that and I also tell people look if none of these seven
51:49
resonate with you that's okay what does how do you want respect how do you want
51:55
to get respect how do you want to show it the point isn't to be oh these are
52:00
the seven they're not like rules it's more the the purpose is more oh there
52:06
are different ways so even with the Love Languages I've heard people say food is my love language food was not one of the
52:13
original five love languages right and so so however people I mean I dream one
52:19
day people say what are your forms of respect these are my forms and you know what that means we want to respect one another we
52:26
assume that we do we just do it differently and that's different from you need to respect me that's how we
52:32
talk about respect now you need to respect me versus how do you want
52:38
respect okay so it's it's analyzing respect from not
52:44
taking the assumption that everyone feels the same on or on how they
52:50
perceive respectful manners and I suppose a lot of this also comes relation with
52:57
Multicultural work or teams or uh people like how much of this also touches
53:04
things like I don't know diversity inclusion um equity in the sense no
53:09
because I suppose that this the the fact that there is so many forms or different forms of respect is also binded to
53:18
having different cultures different kind of people inside of it uh it's extracted
53:23
out of this research also or yeah well and I I the the research is and the
53:30
approach is fundamentally we as an individual we make our own choices and we have our own influences and so I try
53:38
to be really because some people say well how do women want respect how does this group want respect it's just
53:43
there's no group that's monolithic right I mean you can have general what I was saying in Vietnam
53:49
time is rubber but there a lot of people who care about time just because you're Vietnamese doesn't mean that you think
53:55
that time is rough rubber right it just means that generally there's this this
54:00
acceptance that we can be more flexible with time and as an individual I may say that's not acceptable to me I would
54:06
never do that or I don't like that and so it's the work is actually trying to
54:12
get clear about asking people what do you want because a lot of times what we
54:18
discovered we are all brought up to think respect should be this should be that and what we don't ask ourselves is
54:25
how do I want what matters to me how do I want to be respected what actually matters to me so
54:32
much I will do it no matter what even if other even if it doesn't matter to other
54:38
people and so and so to get some clarity around that because uh so it's a lot
54:45
that goes back to the self-awareness part of practicing of practicing curiosity so yes all these different
54:50
cultures can uh can affect it and yet we also belong to multiple cultures
54:56
communities and identities at the same time so which one is going to be more important I can't say that being
55:02
Vietnamese is the most important sometimes it's being the firstborn child is the biggest part of what's
55:08
influencing how I think about respect right or being an employer is that's what's really strong
55:15
for me or being growing up in the Pacific Northwest or so you know it's about being able to name it hey this is
55:22
what's influencing me right now totally I think any kind of relation
55:28
establish some some kind of uh marks no and some kind of ways of doing things
55:34
that might come from cultural perspective but from work or from family or from everything so makes a lot of
55:39
sense being in a small business versus a big Corporation absolutely being in a military there are people who have like
55:45
I grew up in the milit or I went I spent I served in the military that influences how people think about respect and so
55:52
then to be able to share so that other people can understand oh this is where you're coming from now I understand why
55:59
you want that it's though the only thing so this
56:07
is a framework that you do it's the only thing that you do with these companies because curiosity can opens thousands of
56:14
things no that's the whole point assume of curiosity itself one of them being how do you respect each other and how do
56:20
you respect yourself do you enter for example on more tangible things or like I don't know like because this is a
56:27
little bit like soft skills no what we are talking about it's okay how to respect others uh maybe I want to learn
56:33
how to appreciate myself a little bit more and that's through curiosity I can arrive to that do you also have like
56:40
clients who are more like okay I want to curiosity should trigger that I want to learn this skill I want to learn
56:47
something very specific like I don't know I want to learn Photoshop that's the first thing came to my mind so that
56:54
I think learning Photoshop is good goes into training right and so I mean so one of the great things is being a business
57:00
owner is I can say oh I do this and I don't do this and I can refer you if you want to photoshop let me introduce you
57:07
to someone who does Photoshop we don't do Photoshop so seven forms of respect is kind of the signature work that we do
57:14
and yet we also the everything that we do is is underpinned by this practice of
57:19
curiosity so for example another one we do uh another we I said goal setting and so another one is explore what success
57:26
looks like and feels like to you and so again that kind of gets at that communication some people think of
57:33
success in terms of tangible measurable it's just like oh success looks like making this much money and
57:39
having a retirement home and having this kind of car and other people think
57:45
success means freedom it means connection and and the way when we talk
57:52
about success we're using these different words and so what we help people understand is both are important we should talk about tangible and
57:58
intangible it's because again it kind of goes back to you know what I said disrespect versus respect this is no
58:04
tangible is important no intangible is important both are important we just have to and how do we
58:11
how do we also be aware some people think about it in terms of feelings and some people think about it in terms of tangible and we need to have both be and
58:18
they need to be in alignment so that's just another example of what we do around curiosity
58:25
another thing this is actually I think works really well with the expat is we have something called getting curious
58:30
about our assumptions getting curious about our assumptions and so I think a lot of
58:35
people I've seen a lot of trainings that say don't make assumptions assumptions are bad that's not our approach our
58:41
approach is we all make assumptions so let's get curious let's let's try to figure out where they come from and
58:47
actually embrace them and be surprised by them and kind of be delighted by that surprise I think of you know those
58:53
nesting dolls those Russian nesting dolls M you lift a doll and there's another doll and you lift that doll and
59:01
there's another doll and that's the way we think of assumptions there're like those nesting dolls I didn't know that
59:07
assumption existed and now I can break it down but oh there's another one wait
59:13
a minute what's that one about and I mean I can give you a coloring book we
59:18
can give a whole group of people coloring books and everyone's going to color it differently and that's based on
59:24
our experiences and so what we try to help people do is explain oh this is why I chose these
59:29
colors this is why I chose to make my house look like this so that's
59:36
um uh or Draw the house like this and so that's uh that's another it's all around
59:42
practicing curiosity and giving people a space to say it's okay that I think that
59:48
I'm there's no right there's just different
59:54
nice how do you see all of this fitting like what is your vision for for
1:00:00
curiosity playing a role in the future of organizations and and leadership in general what is your ambition what is
1:00:07
with all the project like vision for it yes I hope that we can help help organizations become learning
1:00:17
organizations to that that there is because we spend most of our time at work we spend more time with our
1:00:23
co-workers and with our family and and like I said earlier school does
1:00:29
not learning does not stop when we graduate from school and so my vision is
1:00:34
to help to move away from oh there I
1:00:40
mean don't get me wrong some things we need to be trained in right that there's there's also a lot of space for
1:00:46
embracing um embracing different perspectives and then that so if we can get into that learning
1:00:53
mindset then we can actually have a more productive we can more creative and and
1:01:00
more accepting place too because I want to feel good at work most people actually they they will if they like the
1:01:07
people they work with even if they don't like the job they will stay and they will leave jobs they love if they don't
1:01:13
like the people they work with absolutely so the way and because
1:01:19
we spend so much time at work and we part of that liking one another is actually learning from one another do I
1:01:25
feel that I am growing and stretching here or do I feel and then there are some people just no my I work is work
1:01:32
I'm only here to make money okay that's up to you but there are other places though I think that there are a lot of
1:01:38
people who are just no I W to I want to feel that I can do my best learn here
1:01:45
and and teach other people people think that I can teach them too and that's for any position I just spoke at I just gave
1:01:53
a keynote for the International Association of Administrative Professionals so these are people the
1:01:59
the executive assistants Administrative Professionals sometimes people think oh you have a low title yet they they know
1:02:06
so much and if you spend time with any administrative professional you will see how much you can learn from them so and
1:02:13
that's that it's just recognizing all work has dignity and that we can all learn from one another that's that's my
1:02:20
that's my dream that that people feel I think that a lot of leaders will say
1:02:26
curiosity is valued and yet we've seen stats that just leaders say that and yet
1:02:32
employees don't feel that 70% of people don't feel comfortable asking questions at work
1:02:40
yeah it's a lot related I assume also to these kind of like structures of hery
1:02:45
you know do you really do you work with these kind of things it's part of your work to try to make things a little bit
1:02:51
more transversal in that sense or or at least to empower that lower decision M
1:02:56
decision makers uh have also more boys inside of the organizations that you
1:03:02
work with yeah and I think that hierarchy by its very nature is not bad it's just
1:03:07
about Clarity and part of that is actually because of my culture because hierarchy is baked into the language in
1:03:13
Vietnamese and I think that what's bad is when people abuse it or they use they're lazy with it oh only this or
1:03:21
this and so it's I've seen so this is where actually we help leaders
1:03:26
model practicing curiosity saying I don't know can you help me do this or
1:03:34
admitting mistakes in front of people letting letting maybe the intern run the meeting giving sharing that
1:03:39
responsibility of facilitation so there are ways to uh to share that and and to
1:03:46
to Move It from just talking about it theoretical to actually doing it makes a lot of sense it's not always
1:03:54
on the structuring structures no it's about making them a little bit more working together like
1:04:00
approach yeah and I also feel that it's not just the leaders respons it's a lot of times it's a lot of responsibilities
1:04:07
with a leader and yet it's not 100% so I like to use the analogy of the classroom
1:04:12
the teacher can say be kind to each other and yet there's the playground and there are
1:04:17
bullies right and then there are the kids who are watching and they don't
1:04:23
want to get bullied so they don't say anything and then there are the kids who stand up to the bully and so there's a and that's
1:04:31
outside of what the teacher can see and so there's a lot of things that
1:04:37
yes there's a lot of influence that leaders have but they don't have all the influence it's actually up to
1:04:42
individuals to say so for example I've seen people say oh
1:04:48
especially in say um sometimes with training we're just uh I've seen this with de with diversity equity and
1:04:55
inclusion training and someone will ask why are we doing this again I want to understand and then
1:05:00
other people go I can't believe he's asking that question that's like a dumb question and then other people see that
1:05:08
and they're like oh I shouldn't ask a question that's a that I shouldn't ask a question and so what's that signaling
1:05:16
right and that's that's outside the instructor because the instructor the leader has said this is important for us
1:05:21
to do and um and so there's a lot of power among
1:05:28
peers and we actually all have a choice to instead of saying oh I can't believe
1:05:33
you did that or I can't believe you said that should judge people it's just like I want to actually learn what your intention
1:05:41
was yeah makes a lot of sense like that you are also like not always considering
1:05:47
who is in top as decision maker that your beer it's also like I assume it's
1:05:53
also the with this example for examp it's it's a also about like okay if
1:05:58
someone is not understanding something or someone needs to repeat or re askk
1:06:03
for that uh it's totally fine no I mean it's also like yeah we don't go the
1:06:08
background they weren't paying attention or what was that how do you personally stay curious
1:06:16
how do you continue to learn grow and like being a leader yourself and a consultant yourself so what is your
1:06:23
approach to you you use your own framework yourself yeah and say like
1:06:29
this so I I process a lot with different friends and so whenever I'm facing
1:06:35
something I actually will talk to a lot of different people about it and and it's through that processing that I
1:06:41
actually I I'm practicing that inward curiosity this is the way I'm feeling about it and and I'll ask how would you
1:06:47
see this what do you think not typically I'm not asking for advice I'm asking for
1:06:52
how would you interpret this which is different from advice and so because with advice that can be
1:06:59
tricky because if you give if someone gives you advice and you don't take it
1:07:05
then they could there could be issues with but if you could say like hey how
1:07:10
would you interpret this if you were me how would you see this and then I get to see how they would interpret and
1:07:16
sometimes people help me see things oh I had I wouldn't have seen it that way
1:07:21
which is also different from I'm not asking for Val validation like oh isn't
1:07:27
that horrible yeah that is horrible it's just no I'm asking you what is that um
1:07:33
what does that mean so I'll give you an example this is and this is where I'm constantly having to practice it myself because it is a practice I remember I
1:07:41
had a client who asked me for something and the way that I read the ask I was really offended and I actually even kind
1:07:48
of sent back a little snarky like well I'm trying to understand why you would ask that and then I talked to a friend
1:07:54
about this and I said this is what happened can you just what do you think I should how would you read
1:08:00
this situation and she said why don't you just ask them what they meant Oh asked them what they
1:08:07
meant okay and so I went back and just like can you clarify your request and it
1:08:13
turns out their request was very reasonable but I had all these ideas of
1:08:19
what they were asking and so even and that just happened to maybe year or two ago and so
1:08:27
my point here is even I'm practicing it and I have to slow down and I have to
1:08:32
pause and so the way that I practice curiosity in my own life is I have lots of conversations like what I was saying
1:08:38
earlier I'm really lucky that I have a really large network of friends who I
1:08:43
can just reach out to another way is I love reading and I love reading
1:08:50
fiction I'm a huge an historical fiction is my
1:08:55
favorite genre because I love doing not just space travel but time travel as well and so that helps me get curious
1:09:03
and so whenever I'm reading I want to find out more huh what was this what was this and it helps me also in
1:09:10
fiction you can get people's internal feelings you can I can feel it whereas
1:09:17
with non-fiction if it was just a straight up history book I wouldn't get that I would get more of the this is
1:09:22
what happened this is what happened these are why so that's a that's another uh way that I practice curiosity
1:09:31
too very nice I think the fiction part it's incredible I I I play I play a lot
1:09:37
of video games that are mainly fictional majority of them and that also trigger sometimes like okay I I feel sometimes
1:09:44
like wow okay I'm discovering this new world or I'm discovering this new place and then suddenly I'm like why am I
1:09:52
feeling the same that the the the character of the video game it's
1:09:58
feeling no like why am I like suddenly having the emotion of like I lost a
1:10:03
friend it's just a video game I didn't lost this friend why I'm having this no and and how you tackle that situation or
1:10:10
even getting angry sometimes like why I'm getting angry to this like why I'm to the situation that it's not real at
1:10:15
all and I assume that's also part of like discovering how you will deal in the situations that are not something
1:10:22
that you will leave uh eventually no the last question that I have for today
1:10:27
would be like what are the some of the most rewarding aspects of the work that
1:10:33
you do with curiosity based and and with your framework so I will say two uh so
1:10:40
there's with our customers and then there's with our external customers and with our internal customers and so with
1:10:45
our external customers I I whenever we're working with a client and we see that Aha and we see them say
1:10:52
oh I'm responsible for with this too maybe I wasn't having
1:10:59
a maybe I need to change my expectations or I need to have this conversation
1:11:06
and and so that's always a such a joy for me when when they're just oh respect
1:11:12
is relative oh or oh it's just we are coming from different places and when
1:11:18
they have an aha about themselves oh I care about this because of this and I didn't know that so and especially with
1:11:25
our clients we work with a lot of government clients and a lot of nonprofits and so we know that if we can
1:11:30
help them be strong then they are able to better do the work for their stakeholders which is typically the
1:11:37
public the um and organizations that need their support so that's for the external side for the internal side I'm
1:11:44
I have a small team where five people I get a lot of Joy from being a group of learn it alls and we are actually
1:11:52
also very very divers verse too comeing there's a um most of us are immigrants
1:12:00
or children of immigrants uh whove lived in different countries as well and so uh
1:12:08
and so I get a lot of Joy from us growing together and it's it really drives and motivates my work because I I
1:12:16
was an employer from the get-go so even when I started my company three and a half years ago I was never alone I
1:12:21
always just I'm going to invest and I'm going to have other people with and and for us to we all have this goal
1:12:29
of of adding more narratives more diverse narratives to leadership
1:12:35
development and so that's also what I get a lot of Joy from very
1:12:42
nice jul Julie thank you so much for sharing your insights and experiences uh
1:12:47
with us today it was a very very enlighting conversation and and episode I'm I'm 100% sure that a lot of our
1:12:54
listeners will we'll take many lessons uh valuable lessons out of it uh thanks
1:13:00
for your time um maybe the last question of course like curiosity based uh has a
1:13:07
website so it's out there if you want to check company wise but maybe where people can find you connect with you and
1:13:15
even like maybe your book where where can people buy it also that's an important part yeah thank you for giving me the
1:13:23
opportunity to share so if you want to learn more about my company go to curiosity base.com you can go to formsof
1:13:29
res.com if you want to learn more about my book and we also have a free uh mini book a quiz and a digital course people
1:13:36
can do as well and you can buy the book on Amazon or anywhere Barnes & Noble anywhere that there are book sellers you
1:13:42
can just special order it and uh and then I'm also very active on LinkedIn so
1:13:48
you can find me on LinkedIn and that's where I post the most I also have a
1:13:53
pretty active YouTube channel where we do quick tips every week and so this
1:13:58
could actually be really helpful for those who are expats in the US you say how do I navigate and so we have lots of
1:14:06
videos on say hey five ways to set your boundaries or how to give feedback um
1:14:12
how to give constructive feedback and so I have a lot of those on our YouTube channel and so that's at curiosity based
1:14:18
and you can find me on LinkedIn and also follow the the Curiosity based uh
1:14:25
LinkedIn as well and we have a a Weekly Newsletter where we just talk about
1:14:30
practicing curiosity it's not salesy I promise it's just ways of
1:14:36
seeing uh seeing the world differently and and I also bring in a lot of my my
Outro
1:14:42
background and experience into those stories too thank you so much for inviting me I've really enjoyed this
1:14:48
conversation the pleasure it's all mine uh to have you and and I will put all
1:14:55
the links on the description of the episodes uh on all social media and YouTube also so if you want to know more
1:15:01
about jile and the work that they are doing go and check them out uh of course to all the listeners thank you so much
1:15:08
for tuning in to this episode of XO experts and until next time uh stay
1:15:13
curious and take
1:15:20
care you've been listening to expat experts the that takes you around the world through
1:15:27
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