Surprising Truths About Expat Parenting Abroad! 👶🏼🌍

🤰✈️ In this episode, Angela Vitiello, founder of the Expat Parenting Collective, discusses the unique aspects of raising kids abroad. She shares insights on navigating culture shock as an expat family and offers valuable parenting tips for those considering moving abroad. Whether you're already an expat parent or contemplating the move, this episode provides essential guidance.

Ever wonder about the intricacies of being an  expat parent? In this week's episode, we have an insightful discussion of raising kids abroad. Angela Vitiello shares her experience as an expat family in different countries, providing valuable parenting advice and strategies for navigating parenting challenges.

📲 Follow Angela on:
https://www.expatparentingcollective.com/
https://vitielloconsulting.com/
https://www.instagram.com/expatparentingcollective/
https://www.instagram.com/itsangelavitiello/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 0:49 Guest Background & Expat Journey
• 20:29 Biggest Challenges & Surprising Moments
• 35:19 Expat Life Hack & Advice
• 39:03 Cultural Deep Dive & Fun Comparisons
• 49:47 Audience Q&A
• 52:52 Guest Promotion
• 54:40 Funny Story & Wrap-up

Transcript

0:00
Welcome to Expert Experts. Today we are diving into a fascinating and often
0:05
overlooked side of the expert life, parenting abroad. Our guest is Angela
0:10
Bitiello, founder of the Expert Parenting Collective, leadership consultant and a true global citizen.
0:18
Originally from the suburbs of New York City, Angela's expert journey has taken her to Korea, Netherlands, and finally
0:25
settling down with her family in Belgium. We explore the challenges of raising kids, adapting to cultures, and
0:32
helping expert families navigate the complex realities of life abroad. Before we start with the episode, don't forget
0:38
to subscribe and activate the notification bell to stay tuned with all the episodes of the podcast. And now,
0:45
sit back, relax, and let's explore this expert experience together. So, welcome
0:50
Angela. Thank you for joining us today. I I'm very happy to have you here in Expert Experts.
0:57
Thank you. Where where are you actually right now? Like that's something that we were just
1:03
talking a bit but I didn't ask you before. Yes, I'm in Brussels in Belgium.
1:08
Nice. But you are not originally from Brussels. So that's No, I'm not. You're still still an expert. Let's say
1:16
like this. So maybe we start from that. Where where are you originally from? Yeah, I was born and raised in the New
1:22
York City area in the US. Um and I lived there until I was 30. I left in 2010. So
1:29
yeah, majority of my life uh was spent in the United States in the New York City area.
1:35
Nice. So you decided to leave.
1:41
Why exactly? Like where was the first move? Maybe you can walk through because I know that you lived in
1:46
Asia, Pacific, Europe, Middle East even. So it's a very random points in the map.
1:52
What what was the main reason for moving? So it's a great question. Um, for me it wasn't really at first a desire to be
1:58
like, I need to explore the world. I was working as a um, high school history teacher and in 2010 the economic
2:06
downturn um, dare I say handed me a plate of opportunity. Um, I could see it as that
2:12
I lost my job, but what I saw it as I can find a different way. And um when I
2:18
lost my job, I realized I could struggle and work multiple jobs because in New
2:24
York it's very you need a lot to live comfortably. Um so I decided to look at other options
2:31
and out of all the options I looked at things in regards to similar salary that
2:36
could pay the bills that I had back home plus safety and then I ended up choosing Seoul or actually at that point it was
2:43
Inchan which is about 45 minutes away from Seoul in South Korea. Yeah. So I was working there as an
2:51
educator and I ended up switching to uh universities and I worked as a university professor for a while as
2:57
well. Um spent three and a half years there and then I moved to Amsterdam.
3:05
Um and while I was in No. Um that's a great question. Thank
3:10
you for asking. um you know in South Korea I just kind of felt after a
3:16
certain period of time that I um it life didn't look the way that I wanted it to
3:23
be. I really enjoyed my time there but I felt innately like I I wanted to settle down and I didn't feel like that was
3:30
going to happen there. Um it was a very easy life but it just seemed a bit too much like an extension of my 20s and not
3:37
really something that I saw myself in forever. Um, so yeah, I moved to
3:42
Amsterdam um because a friend of mine told me that Americans could start their own business with a a reasonably small
3:50
deposit. Um, and um, so I started a consulting business, an educational
3:55
consulting business there. Um, which was focused on helping people in the Netherlands to become
4:01
better communicators. And so that's how I got my way in. Um, and I lived there
4:07
from 2014 to 2018. And during that time I met my husband um and in 2018 we ended
4:14
up moving to Brussels Belgium because my husband got an opportunity working in the capital of the EU.
4:22
I mean it's not that big of a change that between Amsterdam and Brussels the distance is more reasonable let's say
4:28
like this but yes but the jump from United States to Korea it's going to the other part of going
4:34
back to Amsterdam. Um there is not only that but suppose
4:39
languages at some point of time in Korea you teach in English or did you learn Korean for
4:44
for teaching? No, I I taught in English. Um I was actually teaching English um at
4:50
a training center teaching also educators to teach English um more like pedagogy. And then after that I taught
4:57
English and business. Um I also have a background in business um at the university and yeah you needed to learn
5:04
some basics in Korea for sure. It was um a place where everyone's taught English
5:10
from a young age and in fact many of the older generation also spoke some English because of the remnants after the Korean
5:16
War and the effects of English on the Korean language if I can generalize it in that way. Um yeah so I I did need to
5:25
learn some but I definitely was not nearly be able to even have a conversation. It was really survival
5:30
Korean. I had working hours that really just prevented that from being able to happen uh for me to take a class and
5:36
really dive deep into the language. But it's fascinating like breaking the hungle character set is almost like
5:42
cracking a code. It's just it it opens up a part of your mind that you're just proud of and just also
5:47
amazed at but also complex. I suppose it's not as easy as going to any other Latin based
5:54
language or Angloexonic based language. But what's fascinating about Hungul is
5:59
that they changed uh it used to be um the similar character set to Chinese but
6:05
the they changed it in Hungul is only 26 characters if I remember correctly. So it's actually quite easy to grasp on.
6:12
The only problem is is that the character combinations can mean different words when and it's just
6:18
almost mind-blowing as like couple character sets can mean like three different things. So, it was a bit
6:23
complex in that way, but to be able to understand what you're reading and to be able to understand in order to, for
6:29
example, tell a taxi cab driver, hey, I'm here. Um, or where you want to go or
6:35
what to order in a restaurant. Um, there was you one could learn enough in that way to be able to live one's life.
6:42
Cool. I mean, you said that you did the move already like being an adult. It wasn't a
6:51
move that it was like I don't know early 20s you go into Arasmos and then you decide that you find a country so you
6:57
were already having I mean of course you had the moment of change of life losing the job and then finding opportunities
7:03
it's always a a changer or a big uh change but um how was it like the
7:09
adaptation on a on a absolutely cultural different uh countries from coming from
7:15
United States to going to to South Korea in that sense? Yeah, that's a great question. At first I definitely had some
7:21
homesickness for sure. Um, I think at first I was just amazed at
7:28
how different the world was. I feel like Americans are a bit sheltered and if I
7:33
could go so far to also say a bit brainwashed um in the ence that we have such a large country and so like
7:39
everything that we have is enough and it's big enough and once I stepped out of that I was just really blown away um
7:46
but also missed the creature comforts of back home. I think that's totally normal
7:51
um and I was very lucky that I knew two people
7:56
in Korea. one who worked in deu at the university and another one who was in the US Air Force. Um, and it was really
8:05
a beautiful way to have like one foot in the US with my friends that are both American there, but also one foot in
8:12
South Korea at the same time. And I also was very held by a very international
8:17
team at the training center I first went to which was filled with people from
8:22
Canada, South Africa, US like really a diverse team and it was
8:28
just a really comforting kind of space because we all were so diverse but all expats and all
8:35
non- Korean speakers or having much uh connection. I say much connection because there were two Korean-Americans
8:42
on the team. Um but yeah, it was it was really a
8:47
beautiful experience to just kind of go through that and to observe myself through that. And I think there were
8:54
times where I was like, well, I don't know if I can do this. But I think I just continued one day at a time with
9:00
curiosity and just trying to see what I could uncover. And those three and a
9:06
half years that I spent there, I think I spent longer than I thought I would, but at the same time, I was able to travel
9:14
so much and it was just such a great opportunity. I think during that time, I probably traveled to like 30 different
9:20
countries. That's so cool. I mean that's something that I always like miss and I maybe as a
9:26
European you have this concept no like you are from Europe and then traveling around European countries especially
9:32
since Shenhen it makes it easy for us internally let's say like this for other
9:38
countries with who doesn't have an agreement with Shenen that's a getting a Shenhen visa it's a it's a nightmare
9:43
probably but um at at the at the moment of like saying okay you
9:50
start counting countries and you say Okay. Yeah, for us it's normal. No, you jump from one country to another in a
9:56
short space and in Asia that also kind of can happen relatively easy.
10:01
But if you are not there permanently doing the jump uh from one country to
10:07
another, it's different. No, you do this one traveling one time and going back home uh while you are there. That's it's
10:15
incredible I suppose like you need to discover so many different ways of doing so many countries so many uh different
10:22
experiences. That's sounds amazing. Yeah. I mean one that really sticks out
10:28
to me was like just discovering um things just like little little things
10:33
like when you go to Cambodia they use American dollars. I remember just randomly bumping into
10:39
that like I'm going to go to Cambodia when I'm traveling toward Southeast Asia. And it's like okay well keep in mind this and that and it's like what?
10:46
So you really have to do your research. Not only that you should learn how to say please, thank you, where is the bathroom in the local language, you
10:53
know, hello, goodbye. Um but also these little things about getting your visa and what do you need to enter and what
11:00
kind of currency would you because in some places maybe you don't have ATMs but uh yeah this was almost 15 years ago
11:08
16 years ago so we're looking not at a different time but somewhat you know so
11:13
there are things that we still need to look into to understand to be able to make the process as smooth as it could
11:20
be. Yeah makes sense. What about the teaching there? Like you did teach
11:26
Korean students mainly or how how was this is it very different from the
11:32
teaching in uh in United States or in anywhere else? Yeah. um because of confusion values,
11:39
teachers are like kind of treated with a respect that I would say is much higher than what I've seen in European and or
11:46
um well I I'm generalizing here because I haven't taught in every European country nor have I taught in every US state but um it's much higher that
11:54
they're literally treated to a different respect level. Um confusion values is
12:00
huge uh it's a huge kind of part of their being. Um, so
12:08
of course they're curious to want to get to know you because you're not their standard English teacher or the English
12:13
teachers that they're used to. Um, or the business teachers that they're used to. Um, but at the same time, there is a
12:19
level of respect that I think most Westerners will be very surprised. Um,
12:26
yeah, they look up to them. Um, and to I would say almost a detriment because the
12:32
the ability to ask questions is almost blocked because it's just like this person I should be showing so much
12:38
respect to when in the grand scheme of things. If the respect blocks creativity and
12:46
curiosity and the drive for critical thinking or whatever it may be and it's just a blind acceptance, that's where
12:53
things kind of go from, okay, we wanted to be respectful to okay, how is this impacting my learning, you know?
12:59
Yeah, it's following a little bit, not like a ship without own mind. Okay, I
13:05
guess that's very curious. I mean it's also like a a balance between respect and and like having organized classrooms
13:12
and having your critical mind in place also. So cool. That's that's a very
13:18
interesting point actually. Um, what about the moment of going back to
13:26
western country, let's say, like this? Like, did you have a reverse culture
13:31
shock when you arrived to Amsterdam or? I don't think so. Um, I actually felt,
13:40
well, there's two ways of thinking about this. Um, I felt very held by the Ronstad, which is the area of North
13:47
Holland to South Holland. So if we draw a generalization from Amsterdam to dehague to Rotterdam because they have a
13:56
very direct and upfront way of communicating and being um that is very
14:02
similar to the way New Yorkers present themselves, their character, their personality. So I felt very held by
14:08
that. And I think I was I mean most summers when I was in Korea, I traveled
14:14
uh Europe quite a bit because I was curious. My mom's side of the family is
14:20
mainly um Swedish and Dutch. My dad's side of the family is 100% Italian. So, I was very curious about traveling a bit
14:26
and finding out more about my heritage and where my family comes from. Um but
14:32
um I think I was just really excited about being closer to the norms and the
14:39
values and the way of life that was something that was similar to me. So,
14:44
interestingly enough, I did not have a reverse culture shock, but I imagine if I would have returned back to New York, it would have been a little bit
14:49
different. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.
14:55
When does the idea of creating a consultancy company come in that because it's a switch on on on your career and
15:02
it's a switch on what you were doing until now in which moment you decided I mean I suppose it has touch points
15:08
between like teaching things and consulting or like uh doing uh the job that you are doing now also I think that
15:15
it's also related to that what how did it happen the click so
15:22
before I went into education I became a high school history teacher I did have a background in business. I spent my first
15:28
six years out of university um in the business field. Um so I did have some business background and the consultancy
15:35
was more it was a consultancy but it was also the
15:41
ability to facilitate. It was also the ability to create and to formulate programs. And it I would say was born
15:51
out of the idea of what most immigrant stories or yeah I'm going to say
15:58
immigrant stories in which people have to create something in order to stay. Um, so what I did was I used my ability
16:05
or shall I say the fortune that life has given me to be a native English speaker and the fact that I have an MBA and a
16:12
masters in education and I just kind of molded them all together and I guess my creativity in that moment was like this
16:18
is going to be a good idea and I'm going to try. Um, and it was actually incredibly
16:24
successful. I was based on the visa that I had I could not hire other people.
16:31
Um and due to that I was at some times uh had a full book of business to where
16:36
I was actually taking clients for the next quarter or the quarter after that. So I mean Dutch people can speak English
16:44
very well and of course in the area of Amsterdam Rotterdam you have also a lot of expats as well and that are from all
16:50
over the world. And what I found is is that people come to Amsterdam for what it's known for but not all of them are
16:57
great communicators in English. they can get by. Um, but also they don't know
17:02
Dutch either. So it's like which one can I perfect faster. Um, so yeah, I had a
17:08
really a great opportunity to help people from all over the world from Japan and Vietnam to the Netherlands and
17:16
um, Portugal and helping them to be better communicators, presenters and
17:21
writers and it was really great. I got to meet a lot of amazing people. Nice. Was it relatively more focused on
17:29
business then or like in a in a business environment communication or globally in
17:34
in life? Let's say like this. It ran the gamut really. I mean I was actually working consultancy in a couple
17:41
different architectural firms helping people to be able to describe the spaces that they're creating and to present
17:48
them. Um, as well as it could be the uh, let's say one of my clients was an
17:55
Italian uh, business owner who came to Amsterdam for a few months and he had owned like a yacht that he took out
18:02
tours to go fishing on. Like so really run the gamut of different people and different possibilities and just taking
18:08
the opportunity to improve their English skills. Nice. I mean I think I need to also talk a
18:15
little bit and I I'm curious about when did the expert parenting collective come into it because at the end uh we got in
18:23
contact due to that and then you contacted me through it and I find it a fascinating uh project let's
18:30
say like I mean I don't have children but I interviewed a lot of parents and I
18:36
see some of the struggle that it means being a parent while being an expert and
18:44
I I first of all like first let's start from the beginning where where this uh
18:49
what inspired you to create the expert parent collective and when was the moment that you realized oh this is kind
18:56
of a support that it's missing in this uh circle of our world
19:01
yeah it's a great question um so in 2018 when my husband got the opportunity to
19:07
go work in Brussels to move our family to Brussels I was 5 months pregnant and
19:13
I had to create what I close down everything I had in the Netherlands and reopen everything or create everything a
19:20
new in uh Brussels. Um and I don't think I realized how
19:26
complicated it was going to be. First off, the two cultures are really different. Um but on top of that that I
19:34
didn't speak more than just travelers French. Um, and on top of that, there's just so much that we don't realize that
19:41
goes into raising a family abroad. Um, so the reason why I created it is that
19:48
I've lived it and continue to do so. And through all the different struggles that
19:54
uh occurred, um, from the isolation, from the having no support and the
19:59
exhaustion of trying to balance it all. um what people don't realize about
20:04
raising third culture kids um partnerships and how they're stretched
20:10
thin um due to the expat life. Um, I mean, I
20:15
think that so many of us, uh, social media paints expat life to be this
20:21
beautiful experience in which everyone's, you know, going to amazing beaches and, um, enjoying cafes all the
20:29
time and all the rest of this stuff, but it's really a challenging life. And it can be beautiful if you have the tools
20:34
and you know what to expect, but if you don't, it can be really, really tough.
20:40
And so, at a certain point, I realized I can't be the only one who's struggling with this. And that's when the expat parenting collective was born and that
20:46
was it'll be two years in November. Nice. That's very cool.
20:52
So it's a project that lived uh was already created in Brussels then. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
20:58
Nice. Um yeah actually I I interviewed Kh some episodes ago like it's last
21:07
season actually. uh uh woman from UK it's Carol Hallet Carol Hallet Mobs who
21:15
has this expert child uh also like trying to help uh
21:20
parents and with their children and living abroad and we talk about it and I
21:27
I really find it a super interesting topic like it's it's a matter of like uh
21:33
finding yourself and I can kind of like empathize empathize with a part of the
21:39
expert. But I really and when I picture myself also if it ever comes to have
21:46
kids or whatever and like my partner is German, I'm from Barcelona, we live in a
21:52
in another third country. So all the questions that raise inside of that are
21:57
so scary. So um yeah, it makes sense and I don't think there is a lot of
22:02
information around it that it is a niche of market probably. Mhm. um how is it going like what is
22:11
what is your base of work right now like how are you working with your with your clients what are what is the job that
22:17
you're doing with this yeah so there are four different ways in which I work with clients and then I do
22:23
other things on the side um like webinars and u facilitate different
22:29
workshops but uh there's one-on-one coaching which a lot of people will come to me for example let's say the example
22:35
that you just gave Right. Um I'm from one country, my partner's from another and we live in a third culture. We don't
22:42
parent the same way. We don't understand how the other person parents and our
22:47
local culture is telling us, you know, by feedback from the locals that we're not doing things in the way that they
22:53
want to. Please help us. This is a very common one um because I don't think
22:58
people realize that two people from the same country parent in different ways.
23:03
If you get two people from totally different cultures in which many different cultures are embracing these
23:09
things in totally different ways, um it can be very challenging not only for the
23:14
parents but also for the children when you can imagine that one parent is saying like you can do it. Go get messy.
23:21
Go jump in the puddles. Go climb up the whatever it may be at the playground and the other one's like no don't do it.
23:27
Don't get your hands dirty. Don't go near this puddle. Don't try. I'm going
23:32
to do it for you. So, it's it's it's complex and it's layered and it's
23:38
multiaceted and at the same time it can be so beautiful um if you learn how to embrace it, how to hold it. Um and I'm
23:46
sure that uh there's a lot of thoughts in all of what I just shared. So, I'll leave a moment there because there's
23:51
quite a bit of content in what I just said about that. Any questions on the what I just example
23:57
I gave? Sure. Sure comments like the the thing is that I don't know that the most
24:04
common struggles with exert parenting it's supposed it's a shock of cultures but there is also like hidden ones. No,
24:10
there is things that probably the parents that come to you are not willing to talk about it also.
24:18
So probably the com the conflicts about oh I do things like that or I do things like that because my culture brings me
24:24
to do that. Mhm. How how how do you also like pull this
24:29
information that may be irrelevant and that they don't want to share? No, they probably because you grow up like that.
24:35
So maybe you don't want to accept that your way is the not the best way of doing it either. You know,
24:42
that's such a beautiful question and that's something I also address in two different programs. The one-on-one coaching because when couples come, you
24:49
need to dig deep and you need to understand certain things. But also in the program that we have um called the
24:54
empowered expat parent, we need to start with couples and understand and if it's
25:00
it's best done if you do it before you have children than after, but it's also possible after. It just gets a little
25:06
bit more complex, but to understand how you are parented as a child and how you
25:12
want to parent your kids. So so so so important to understand your partner and the why the wise behind what they do as
25:21
a parent. Um and I don't think we realize this but a lot of one of the
25:26
struggles that I had when I uh first had my daughter was I felt uncomfortable
25:32
because all of the things in which all the ways in which I was parented were downloaded into me. like I almost kind
25:38
of felt like I didn't have a choice even though I knew I didn't want to do things in that way
25:44
where a lot of people don't realize that's maybe not the exact situation happens but we get there is no guide
25:51
book to parenting. We learn how to be a parent by observing
25:58
how we were raised, how our parents parented, and if we are lucky to have
26:03
other couples around us in which we saw them parent their kids other ways too. But not many people are that lucky to be
26:10
able to see something on a daily basis and so such close way. Um so it's
26:15
necessary to do that and to really to dig deep to understand those different things. And another thing that I do with
26:23
couples and also individuals, it's really, really, really important to establish what your values are, but also
26:30
your boundaries and your fears. And I tell my clients, and I speak about this on my Instagram channel all the time,
26:38
when you share your values, boundaries, and fears, you may feel vulnerable. You may feel a bit exposed, but that's how
26:44
you support each other in a partnership is when you share these things and you learn how you can help each other, what
26:49
your needs are. And in addition to that, real true intimacy comes from that vulnerability. And that's really where
26:56
the beauty in relationships come. And if you want to talk about the complexity of being an expat partnership, you need to
27:03
be vulnerable and you need to communicate. There's a reason why there are statistics that show 49%
27:10
more ex uh more couples expats are getting divorced versus people who stay in their home cities, countries,
27:17
whatever. And it's because there is such a layer of complexity and stress that's put on the couple in the partnership. If
27:24
you're not communicating and if you're not vulnerable, it doesn't mean that you have to be perfect in this in all the
27:29
way, but you need to be able to open up to your partner and tell them, "I'm really struggling with isolation right
27:34
now. Let's go do something that allows us to connect or to meet other people or
27:41
I'm scared be that once we have our child, I'm really going to be struggling
27:47
and I'm going to be unable to do anything." Whatever it may be. um you
27:53
need to be able to communicate with your partner. The expat life just adds that extra
28:00
layer of complexity there. So it's really really important. Makes sense. I mean it's just a layer on
28:06
top of something that you already said which is also relevant like even inside a single country and single culture your
28:15
background might be absolutely different and there therefore you were raised 100% everyone
28:22
has been raised in a different way. It's not that you raised every every kid is raised in the same way. So it's it's
28:28
it's kind of literally impossible. So how your family raised you, how the environment that you grow up affects on
28:34
the decisions that you take and on top of that I suppose the complexity comes when cultures or when
28:40
the partners are culture from cultures that are very separated in methodologies. No I assume
28:46
um what about the kids itself? Do you work with uh with with children also
28:52
like are they involved in the sessions at all? Not no no no
28:58
see. Yeah. because something that I had I mean it's not related to the kids itself but I'm
29:04
assuming also parents talk about it no I heard these kind of things multiple times from this stigma myth about the
29:12
people saying oh expert kids are so resilient or they are like brilliant because they learn multiple language at
29:18
the same time. Yeah I think you already busted the myth of like expert life being a flower and
29:24
hippie flower and everything nice and and and beauty um
29:29
I don't think like kids are kids, you know, they just like making them more resilient because of
29:37
that. Is something that you really see with the parents or like I don't know.
29:42
Yeah, I I think you're on to something here. Um, but I would take it one step further and say that the resilience and
29:50
expat kids um comes from the lifestyle of connecting with different places um
29:56
and the feeling of home and being able to mold and to really just kind of be
30:02
with whatever is. Um but I would also take it one step further and say the
30:07
resilience of children is as um malleable and flexible and a the
30:14
ability of it is only as strong as the communication between the parents
30:19
because when you think about third culture kids they need a firm foundation at home so they can continue to put
30:26
themselves out there. So another way to look at it is our children are our mirror. they can feel whatever is going
30:34
on whether you want to admit it as a parent or not. So that the expat kid,
30:39
the second culture or the third culture kids, that resilience can come from being held and that ability um to be
30:47
able to mold and to be malleable and to connect with that feeling of home as a sensation. Um,
30:54
but if the foundation's not strong, that's where that resilience will start
31:00
to crumble. They they really need that firm foundation at home to be able to allow them to feel safe to go out and
31:06
continually put themselves out there. Nice. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense
31:13
actually like it. Um, maybe the last question before the the we switch a
31:19
little bit gears. Um, I wanted to ask you also about the moment that you have
31:24
a kid. No, you were saying like you were pregnant at the moment that you moved from Netherlands to Brussels.
31:30
Then you have a kid in Brussels. Do you and probably your clients are either in the process of getting kids or
31:37
they already have them. Do you feel that these people maybe they were in this
31:42
flexibility of life before and then when they had the kid that grounded them into was the place where they were at that
31:49
moment of time and do you think that this also affected the
31:54
way of reacting to the fact of having of becoming parents like the fact that until now maybe they were traveling
32:00
around or thinking a little bit more on the nomads but also the experts who in
32:06
the sense I don't know maybe they lived in two three different countries and suddenly they have a responsibility that
32:11
it's I don't know bringing the kid to school to have that you know like your world changes so much that it puts you
32:18
into a point in the map no probably and grounds you there yeah I think this is personal um I can
32:25
talk personally about my husband and I my husband was very much of that mindset like the kids need to stay in one place
32:30
to grow up that's just the way it is and I'm like eh I don't know if that's necessarily true I think we're their
32:36
groundedness um But it this is very personal. I think it also connects to
32:41
culture a bit. Um and if someone's risk averse or a risk taker. Um and in
32:48
addition to that uh I would say that it can be
32:55
there's an identity shift that happens when people become parents. Um people speak about it called matrience and
33:01
patrience. And um I think a lot of parents inherently feel this tug of the
33:09
there's a meme that exists that I absolutely adore that talks about you know like before kids you know this
33:15
weekend we decided to just take a last minute trip to Africa and then like after kids and it's like you're just sitting there like I just want to go
33:22
kind of thing. Um there is this tug, this grief that exists within parents in which we kind of miss a bit of that old
33:30
life which is a bit more maybe the nomad life or the ability to take a weekend trip at the last minute at the thing um
33:36
whenever it happens to hit us or strike us to do so. Um so I I think the answer to your question is that this is
33:42
incredibly personal. Um and it also talking about the other thing that I said there are some people who a major
33:50
boundary for them is not necessarily the children going to a different country or a different place but like I personally
33:57
this is actually something my husband said I do not want to move to another country where I have to learn another language. he speaks four already plus
34:05
two dialects. And so, um, things can get complicated.
34:10
And I think as we get older as adults, you know, not only are you comfortable with being this way in your field, but
34:15
like having to learn a language from zero. I mean, if my husband were to have to learn German, for example, like the
34:22
Latin languages are kind of what hold him. Um, but, uh, yeah, for some people
34:27
it's just it's just not something they want to take on. So, I think it's multiaceted. Maybe it's not just the
34:34
kids that bring about this, but also what the parents capacity could be, you know.
34:39
Yeah, makes sense. And I suppose also like the fact that a kid is bringing you taking also a lot of time. So maybe I
34:46
don't know. I know it's the case, but I I put myself like your husband could be learning German without having the te
34:54
without having a kid because he would have the time to learn German. But when you have a kid, you need to have a
35:00
dedication to that kid. So it's taking a lifetime uh from you for sure. Like
35:06
I'm free time. Yeah. And then when you have more than one that that just adds
35:12
can't split yourself in two. So absolutely I hear you. Nice. Um so yeah before we jump to the
35:19
culture of the dive and I prepared a little bit of what I call mini games and whatever. Um I would like you to ask the
35:27
top piece of advice that you would give expert parentings uh trying to raise uh
35:32
kids abroad or that they are planning to to do their move while living abroad. What is uh I mean free of charge.
35:39
Yeah. It's actually it's going to sound simple but it's actually harder than one
35:46
thinks. I prepared two which is one which is the idea for all expats and one for expat parents. So for all expats, I
35:53
say curiosity is the bridge to understanding. There are so many things that are going
35:58
to happen in your expat life that are going to just be baffling.
36:03
Um, and instead of judging or thinking that something is backwards or whatever
36:09
it may be, see it with curiosity, through curious eyes or a beginner's mind. And that bridges so many positive
36:18
benefits, you know, like someone seeing that you're curious instead of judging them, that just opens up a whole new
36:24
door and a whole new possibility. Um, so that is my go-to for all experts. I
36:29
think that's very important to keep in mind whether it be bureaucracy, people, work,
36:35
cross-cultural communication, everything. Um, for parents, I say communication is
36:42
key. Um really you have to visit your values, boundaries and fears regularly
36:47
and when I mean regularly I mean like let's say quarterly you it's really important to kind of check in and with
36:54
that I would say that setting up a time one specific time every day every week
37:01
and it doesn't mean that if you have something else that's happening that it has to happen but that regularity is key
37:07
to just check in with each other. How are you doing? What's going on? What are you struggling with? you know, is there anything you want to share with me? Um,
37:14
it's just so important to be able to create the space to have that communication
37:20
and your kids will thank you for that because they can see, they can feel that. I said before, your children are your mirror. Like they can sense when
37:27
things are not in a good place. Yeah. So it's not a communication between you only but it's a
37:34
communication and the reflection of this communication with your children at the end like and having communication with
37:42
the children also probably know like it's not only the parents communicating between them. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's really
37:49
important to how you live your life is also something that your children will see and model
37:54
their own communication and their own um whether it be apologizing. I I mean I remember growing up in which parents
38:01
never apologized. They were seen to be these perfect little beings that we were not supposed to ask, you know, like why
38:07
or whatever and we were supposed to accept that they didn't apologize as normal. But like how you model yourself
38:13
as a parent is how your children will be. And my kids, they know that we're not perfect and they know that sometimes
38:19
we're going to say sorry because we're going to do or say the wrong thing. And it's such a beautiful way to show them
38:25
that it's okay to make mistakes. Life is life and no one's perfect, you know, and
38:31
uh I think this is very much a part of the communication and understanding you and your partner and where you're at and
38:37
how you want to be as parent. Hey there everyone. I hope you're enjoying this episode so far. Remember that the best
38:44
way to stay tuned with the latest episodes of the podcast is by clicking on subscribe in YouTube and in your
38:50
favorite audio platform. For extra content and information, follow, like, and comment on our social media and
38:57
visit our website, expatexpertodcast.com. Thank you for supporting our podcast, and let's continue with the episode. So,
39:03
I would say that we jump into a little bit of fun. Uh, I prepared a couple of
39:09
mini games to just chat and take it a little bit easy. Uh, no pressure, just
39:16
for fun. Uh, some cultural comparisons. uh I don't take everything like don't
39:21
take it as a as it needs to be the perfect response. The first one that I created it's called rank the countries
39:27
and uh parenting edition let's say like this and I grabbed some parenting
39:34
categories uh and I would like to know from your own experience but also knowing that you probably have clients
39:40
who are experts from all around the world where do you feel that um
39:47
country or region wise this is easier to to be accomplished let's say like this
39:53
Um so I will give you some uh categories or some uh scenarios and you tell me if
39:59
you think that there is any place in the world where you would put that. Um the
40:04
first one probably one of the biggest ones is most childfriendly environment.
40:11
Denmark. Whoa, that was fast.
40:18
Yeah. No, they're allowed to be kids. They're allowed to play and experiment from a very young age. Nice.
40:24
Uh the other way around is easiest to adapt uh as a parent environment.
40:34
O uh I would say probably
40:40
h maybe I would say my guess would be India here. Um because you have a lot of
40:45
support from your family. families often live in uh close by. And
40:53
this is a a caveat, but also somewhat connected to what you said. Um parents
40:59
are expected to note everything when their child is born, which is hard if
41:04
you think about it, but it's honestly up until this current generation not really question so much. And
41:11
children don't defy that. They don't speak back. They don't, you know what I mean? So that's why I say it's hard to
41:17
think about that. Like when I hear that you're expected to know everything, I'm like, whoa, that's a lot. But if you
41:24
understand the idea that most of them in the past didn't really push back because
41:29
of that, like almost kind of like there's this deity there.
41:34
You can see how it's actually easier to fit into that role versus the struggle that potentially could come from it. So
41:41
yeah, kind of a mixed answer, but yeah. All good. All good. That's exactly why I
41:47
do these things. So it comes answers that are not as easy as it will come with our conversation.
41:53
And hardest school systems to figure out.
42:02
From my experience, I would say South Korea. Uh, kids go to school from 8:00
42:08
in the morning to 3:00 p.m. Then after that, they go to extra school from 3:00
42:13
p.m. until dinner time after dinner time. And they go to school on top of go to school on
42:19
top of go to school. So their school systems are known to be really great, but they continue to go to school after
42:24
because they want to do really well. So if you want to say the hardest school
42:30
system to figure out, maybe the school system could be doing more. um or helping to challenge them in different
42:37
ways. Um I would question why we need to keep going to all these different schools. They call them hagwans, which
42:42
are like tutoring centers. Um so yeah, I I that I would say it's the hardest one to figure out because
42:49
there's such a pressure there and demand for people to do better and really such
42:55
pressure on kids. So yeah, nice. Um,
43:01
best work life par balance for the parents
43:07
h Spain.
43:15
That would be my guess. Yeah. Um, I think that I mean I come from the
43:20
country of one of the worst work life balances. Um, so I think most European countries
43:27
have a really great work life balance. Um, for example, Germany, parents are able to take time off in summertime and
43:34
spend time with their kids. In Belgium, you're able to take parental leave and summertime with most organizations. But
43:40
what I see in from a lot of people that I work with in Spain is that it almost
43:46
is like life is a bit more relaxed. So there's not necessarily that pressure to have to take time off. Um I say also say
43:55
this with a caveat of not having lived there and this is just through the experiences of clients and friends who live there. Um but that would be my
44:01
first instinct. Nice. What about most uh familyfriendly
44:07
public spaces?
44:13
Nordics, parts of Germany and I would say the Netherlands.
44:19
Nice. Yeah. And the last one of this one would be best health care for families.
44:26
Oo. Uh I'm going to go with Belgium. There's an amazing healthcare system there. Um the taxes are high to support
44:33
that. But in the same essence, it's really really well done.
44:40
Nice. Yeah. Cool. So jumping to the second game that I will propose to you today. I call it
44:47
rapid fire and it's a bit of like trying to see where the wall is going based on
44:54
your experience and based on who you talk with. So basically I just give you
45:00
two options and uh you tell me if you believe that the world of parenting or I
45:05
mean this is very difficult because I suppose everyone does what they can and very different ways but if you see more
45:12
of one or the other. Okay. Uh the first one first one that I have it's structure routines or go with
45:19
the flow. Go with the flow. Yeah. Yeah. Go with the flow.
45:26
Helicopter parenting or free range? Free range.
45:31
Really? For sure. I would say the opposite. Like that's that's funny, but it's nice. I mean like
45:37
I think if you control everything, you don't allow your child to be able to learn it on their own. And there's a
45:43
whole entire idea called the growth mindset because kids if people continue to do things for them which is kind of
45:48
what helicopter parenting is right um then the children get frustrated and instead of trying they will go
45:54
automatically to their parent or someone else to do it. Um and this frustration will grow and that's a part of being a
46:00
kid is having dealing with that frustration and trying to learn. So yeah
46:07
absolutely not helicopter parenting in my opinion. No, no, not that you should doing, but that the wall is going that
46:13
direction somehow like that the parents are behaving like it. I don't know. I don't know. I would say that there are
46:19
lots of the current generation, they're wanting to do things differently than they were parented. So, I would say that things are changing. Um, and both of the
46:27
questions that you asked, things are changing more in that direction. Would it be like 5149?
46:32
[Laughter] Would be a close call. Are changing but not that rapidly.
46:39
Cool. Uh what about strict back bed bedtimes or whenever they are tired?
46:45
For the large majority of the world, it's more strict bedtimes. If it's not summer, more strict bedtimes. Yeah.
46:53
Local schools or international schools. Um for experts or
47:00
in this case, yeah, I mean it's your t of expertise, I suppose. No, I would say more local schools.
47:07
Really? Yeah. Yeah. It's nice. Very few expats have the capacity to afford international schools
47:14
unless their organizations are paying for it. And if a family is looking to get the
47:20
real experience of a place, a local school is better and your children learn
47:26
the language faster and they make friends with locals faster and you just fit in much faster. So I the majority of
47:31
people that I know whether it's here in Brussels or the people that I work with
47:36
70% send their kids to the local schools. Nice. Yeah.
47:42
Co-sleeping or own room from day one? Own room from day one. I would say that
47:49
when the babies are really really young that they usually stay inside the room
47:56
um because they can smell mom especially those first few months. Um but after
48:01
let's say 6 months most people put them into uh their own room. Um I don't know
48:08
I would say I maybe 35 to 40% co-sleep and for a lot of people that just
48:14
disrupts their sleep too much as parents and it's just not it's not a easy feat.
48:22
Yeah. What about screen screen time being strict limits or flexibility?
48:32
Depends on the circumstance. What I'm seeing more these days is that
48:39
screens are showing up with flexibility in the spaces in which kids are not
48:44
allowed to be kids. That's really the best way to answer that. Um, but does everyone give their
48:52
kids screens all the time with open possibility? No. So that's why I say it really depends.
48:58
Nice. And maybe the last one um academical pressure is uh normal to have
49:05
it or is it problematic of
49:11
to a certain extent? I think it's normal um with healthy way of encouraging you
49:17
know um so yeah that would be my very short answer on that I I think this is
49:23
cultural um and also has an element of family in it as well like I was saying
49:28
before South Korea huge pressure for kids to perform and that comes from their history of their country from a
49:35
lot of different things um so there are different uh factors here but um for me
49:41
I would say It's normal to have some pressure and it's done in a healthy way. Nice.
49:47
So, jumping to one of the last sections of the episode today and looking a little bit on the time. I asked the
49:55
audience uh uh that I was going to interview you. So, I searched your your
50:00
social media, a little bit of your profile. And uh I got one question from
50:05
Nina La. I suppose I pronounced that properly. Uh hopefully uh buting
50:12
surnames I suppose. Um what's the one cultural practice that you grabbed from
50:18
abroad and kept in your parenting style? What's the one cultural practice that I
50:24
adapted from abroad and kept in my parenting style? H
50:32
if any Yeah, I'm sure there's something out there. I'm just trying to grasp it.
50:38
Um, so
50:44
I think the one that I so I grew up in a house in which things
50:49
were very controlled. And one thing that I really love about a lot of
50:55
northern European countries is the idea that you allow children to try and to get messy and to really explore on their
51:03
own. And I really love this idea. And it there's an internal battle that happens inside of me sometimes when I see it
51:09
happening. But at the same time, there's such childhood magic in those moments. And so
51:16
if I can just be present with the uncomfortability while it's happening, it really is beautiful to see their
51:22
excitement and the discovery and all of that. So yeah, that would be my first instinct to to say.
51:29
Nice. I mean I suppose it might be difficult because of this kind of the parents are I mean it's I think it's
51:36
kind of natural not that you're protective with your children it's it's part of our nature and animal
51:43
nature actually I would say like even when you see animals treating their cups
51:49
like that so yeah the thing is is it it becomes problematic when
51:55
protecting kids is holding kids back from for example just getting dirty.
52:01
Like they're not hurting themselves if they get dirty. I was not raised in that way. But like
52:07
if you think about it, like the Nordic saying like there's no such thing as bad weather. There's only such thing as bad clothes. That is a genius phrase.
52:14
Genius. But if you approach a uh southern European and you allow you tell
52:20
them to tell their kids to go jump in puddles, most of them would be like, "No,
52:28
I don't want my kid to get dirty." Um, and so that's why I say like there's a caveat there like when it becomes like
52:34
safety or is it cleanliness? like is it the way in which we were raised
52:39
or is it really just allowing us to expand our capacity outside of what
52:45
um we're comfortable with you know so yeah that would be my answer to that
52:52
nice so yeah Angela I would uh like to give you the opportunity to to share I
52:58
mean we already talked a little bit about expert parenting collective but maybe if you have any specific I don't
53:04
know program worship shop coming on or that something that you are working on right now and also where especially
53:11
where people can connect with you and where where they can find you. I think that's important for the listeners.
53:18
Yeah. So um last month we had our first retreat in Corfu Greece which we're
53:23
super proud of. Um and we also have our first cohort of the empowered expat
53:28
parent that's starting um that started actually last week. Um, in addition to
53:34
that, this month we also have a workshop on parenting third culture kids
53:40
mindfully. So, we're really excited about bringing forth that uh workshop.
53:45
Um, the ways that you can get in touch with me, my website is the Expat Parenting Collective. So,
53:51
expatparingcollective.com. You can find me on Instagram, expat parenting collective. Uh same thing with
53:58
Facebook and um LinkedIn uh would be my first name
54:05
Angela, my last name Vitello and then MBA MSED. Uh my name is very popular in
54:11
the south of Italy. So that's the qualifier at the end which makes me who I am on LinkedIn. Um and yeah, that's
54:18
pretty much it. Um I think that runs the gamut of where you can find me and how
54:24
you can get a hold of me. Cool. I mean definitely like for all the
54:29
listeners who are interested and of course for the expert parents who are out there but also the ones who maybe
54:35
are considering it uh you know uh where to find Angela. Of course as always the
54:40
links are in the description of the episode so you can always go through there. Um to wrap up a little bit uh we
54:47
always love to uh if you have any last uh for the last minutes funny surprising
54:54
I don't know even slightly embarrassing story living abroad uh something that uh
54:59
to wrap up and close the episode for today. Yeah to wrap up I would say that the
55:06
advice I would give to any expats is to continue to travel alone to try new things and to make friends. Um, one
55:12
amazing story that I have from my travels was in um, Katana where a friend
55:19
and I were leaving uh, language school and we decided to go take a walk of the city and we walked into a bakery and
55:26
they just finished making um, some almond cookies, some warm amazing
55:32
smelling almond cookies and just the experience of being curious and trying something new in that moment. Uh we
55:39
tried the cookies at the same exact time and both my friend and I were like bonimo. It's just so amazing this
55:46
cookie. Um and that not only warmed up the heart of the person that owned the
55:53
shop that offered us this cookie, but at the same time it's those moments of connection and curiosity and kindness.
56:01
And it's the beauty of being an expat and really being able to travel the world and enjoy all of the
56:10
positive sides of being an expat. So yeah, show up with curiosity, do things
56:15
that you are interested in, and I think the world will open up its doors in so many ways for us and our children.
56:23
Very nice. It's a nice closeup. So, Angela, thank you so much for sharing
56:29
your story, but also the work that you do um and a little bit of advice for
56:34
everyone who is out there uh listening. So, um thanks thanks a lot for for joining us today. Um
56:42
to the audience, of course, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, but also check out the Instagram, social media,
56:50
and website of Angela and also subscribe and follow her. Uh share this episode if
56:56
you enjoy it to other expert parents and other experts. Until then uh keep exploring, stay curious and see you in
57:02
the next episode of Expert Experts.