#13: Mastering the Founder’s Evolution: Scaling Secrets with Scott Ritzheimer

 “Scaling isn’t just about growing bigger; it’s about growing better. It requires the right team, culture, and leadership at every stage.”

In this episode of Brewing Business with Brady, Mason Brady has a conversation with Scott Ritzheimer, founder of Scale Architects and an expert in leadership and business scaling. Scott dives into the Founder’s Evolution, a framework for guiding founders and CEOs through every stage of growth. From assembling the right team to fine-tuning company culture and enhancing leadership roles, Scott provides practical strategies that any growing business can implement.

Want to know your leadership style? Take the Predictable Success Styles Quiz here: https://predictablesuccess.com/ps-styles-quiz/

Key Takeaways:

• Humanize Recruitment: Today’s top candidates seek empathy and trust from employers.
• Efficient Hiring: Prolonged hiring processes hurt your ROI—speed and clarity are key.
• Build Your Brand: A strong employer brand attracts both clients and top talent.
• Partner with Experts: Specialized recruiters streamline talent acquisition and improve hiring outcomes.

Connect with Scott Ritzheimer:

• LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottritzheimer/
• Website: https://scalearchitects.com

Connect with Mason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/masonbrady/

Visit BradyCFO: https://www.bradycfo.com/

If you enjoyed the episode, please be sure to rate, review, and of course, SUBSCRIBE!

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Have a business growth question you'd like Mason to cover in an upcoming episode? Email: info@bradycfo.com

Transcript

Mason Brady (00:01.655)
Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Brewing Business with Brady. We are really excited about today's guest, Scott Ritzheimer. Scott, welcome to the podcast.

Scott Ritzheimer (00:11.532)
Hey, Brady, super Mason Brady. The double first name thing always gets me and the podcast and everything. So I'm so excited about this. Usually I have to like chug my coffee before the episode. So if nothing more than to just be able to drink my coffee freely on a podcast, this is like life changing for me.

Mason Brady (00:31.489)
Absolutely. So actually let's hit off with that. What are you drinking? What's your drink of choice and how did it become that?

Scott Ritzheimer (00:38.616)
So I am a, this is funny, I'm a black coffee drinker. I can do like the fruity drinks every once in a while and almost did another just for the sake of the show, but how did that happen? So I used to drink a little bit of coffee with my creamer, right? Back in like the end of high school, beginning of college. And I was working with my dad one day during the summer in Pennsylvania and left my,

Mason Brady (00:42.903)
enough.

Mason Brady (00:57.283)
Fair enough,

Scott Ritzheimer (01:08.216)
coffee cup, like half drank in the truck and then forgot about it the rest of the day and went back out the next day and had, and just completely forgetting that it was there, brought another identical coffee cup and threw it in basically the same place. And when we got on site, I pulled out what I thought was my current coffee cup and got this huge swig of disgusting, curdled, like rotten, nasty. I think it was actually there a couple of days.

Mason Brady (01:23.617)
Yeah.

Mason Brady (01:38.051)
Yeah.

Scott Ritzheimer (01:38.494)
And so now, like, anytime I taste anything even remotely resembling creamer, it's just, that's all I taste. It's so terrible. So, black coffee and strong. I think it's We Were Soldiers, where the two sides are talking to each other and basically the Americans like, we brew our coffee so thick that an axe head will stand up in it or something like that. And they ask at end of the movie, like,

Mason Brady (01:45.507)
Fair enough.

Scott Ritzheimer (02:06.456)
would an axe stand up in our coffee? So it's like, I'm still trying to live up to that. If one day I can get the axe to stand up in it, I will have arrived.

Mason Brady (02:16.811)
I feel like that would just replace all stomach acid though. would just like, yeah, you don't need this anymore. You got this in your stomach now. So, well good. Well, yeah, so excited today cause we are tackling a crucial topic for founders in the lower middle market. How to elevate leadership and drive organizational growth. This is kind of one of those elusive things, right? That a lot of people think

Scott Ritzheimer (02:20.218)
Okay.

Scott Ritzheimer (02:26.39)
my goodness.

Mason Brady (02:41.965)
There's these little tactics to improve margins or improve their top line revenue growth. But really, you and I both know, Scott, it's so much more fundamental than that, that there's really a lot going on in how the business is structured that really will amplify whether it can achieve its objectives or not. for our audience that we're going to explore understanding the challenges and strategies for scaling effectively and how that can be a games changer for businesses at this stage of their business life cycle.

And our guests to introduce a little bit more about Scott, he is a distinguished expert and founder of leadership and business scaling. Keyword there, scaling. Scott has a proven track record having helped start and scale nearly 20 ,000 businesses and nonprofits and built a multimillion dollar company before turning 35. Now through his scale architects program and founders evolution model, he helps founders overcome capacity issues and achieve remarkable success. Well,

Yeah, what an intro that, yeah, we are excited to have you, Scott. So thank you again for being on the podcast today.

Scott Ritzheimer (03:43.288)
Yeah, excited to be here.

Mason Brady (03:45.023)
Awesome. yeah, tell us, kind of start us off. What is the founder's evolution? just, we just intruded a bit about it, but what is the founder's evolution? Why is it crucial? Why is it crucial for business owners to understand it?

Scott Ritzheimer (03:58.808)
So it's football season. And so these stories tend to hit a little bit better, but let's just imagine that it's the big game, right? And it's the fourth quarter, four seconds to go. You're down by four. You're on the four yard line. It's fourth down. Every four you could think of were there. Basically it boils down to if you get in, you win. If you don't get in, you lose. And...

So, I mean, it's just everything comes down to this moment. You've got the perfect play ready to go and it's a fake to the running back and then a toss over the shoulder of your star wide receiver. And so everyone lines up, everything's ready and it kind of hits you how different everything looks from the sideline. Because this time, instead of being there in the play, you're a coach on the sideline.

Instead of being the one who's got the ball in your hands, you have to kind of stand back and hope that you've done enough up to this point, that you've trained them well enough, that you've called the right play. And it strikes you as odd, right? So center hikes it, quarterback gets it, fakes to the running back, and it works, right? Everyone collapses in on the hole. They think it's a run. It just couldn't go better. And a smile just about...

hits your lips when you turn to the left and look and horror of horrors, your star wide receiver got the play wrong, right? Just totally mental lapsed and they're blocking instead of running. And you know it's a timed play and there's no way that they can get there from where they are and what they're doing. And so what do you do? Coach on the sideline, you take off. Just book it.

Right? Like the headset goes flying, clipboard hits an assistant coach. You're running down the field faster than you've ever run in your life. Somehow, they're gonna study the physics on this for years, but somehow you make it all the way to the end zone. You get both feet in bounds. You lay out perfectly. Make just this borderline miraculous catch, right? And.

Scott Ritzheimer (06:11.128)
you could hear a pin drop, right? You're waiting for the applause, but it's just silence, right? There's 80 ,000 people. And the only thing that's happening is these little yellow flags are flying in your direction, right? And men in black and white stripes start chasing you. And so you're laying there on the ground and what would have been the crowning accomplishment of your career you now realize is a penalty.

Right? It's an illegal play. Not only did you not guarantee the success of your team by getting the touchdown, you actually guaranteed their defeat. And so you're lying there, bruised, you probably pulled both hamstrings, you know, everything hurts and, you know, and that includes your emotions, your feelings, right? Your team is standing there, hanging their head in shame, right?

At this point, the other team has started laughing. It's really, really bad moment. And I mean, just sitting there and imagining that, like it's almost unimaginable, right? Like never in the history of professional football, at least here in the US, has this happened. I mean, it never will. But it happens every single day in our companies and with the founders and CEOs that...

I come across. Every single day we cross that boundary line, that big, on a football field it's this giant white line about a yard wide. But in our businesses it's invisible, right? But it's every bit as powerful. And what happens is we kind of, we wake up one day after having jumped in to save the day time and time and time again,

And we wonder why our people are frustrated. We wonder why it feels like it's all up to us. We wonder why we're so tired. We wonder why we're sitting there thinking, is this it? Like, is this what leading a 10 million, 15 million, 25 million dollar business really is? This? Right? I don't like feeling this way. And if we're not careful, if we don't recognize how our role has changed, if we don't recognize the rules for that new role,

Scott Ritzheimer (08:31.542)
and we just keep wearing our founder hat, right? Like we always have. If we just keep wearing our owner hat or whatever it may be, and we don't embrace our role as CEO, embrace our role as coach on the sideline, we're going to ultimately undermine our own success. And so what we can pull from that is it's not bad to make diving catches. It's not bad to go in and save the day, if that's your job.

And so as founders, we have to recognize in the same way that there are different players with different responsibilities and different positions, some on the field, some off the field, we have to recognize our role and how that changes over time.

Mason Brady (09:15.639)
That was an amazing answer to that question, Scott. It's so interesting that parallel between what you see happen in professional sports or even high school sports and just things that you wouldn't even think to do, but yet we do it every day in business or even sometimes just even at home in relationships, right? That, hey, we've assigned people a task. We want them to be able to accomplish it and do it, but...

how often do we just step in and go get it done ourselves because we don't trust, know, and we don't, you know, set up the right systems to pull ourselves out of that, you know, particular role that, yeah, that was amazing there. let's continue to dive into that, the Founder's Evolution, walk us through the seven stages of it, walk us through and help us understand that.

Scott Ritzheimer (10:02.892)
Yeah, we've got six hours, right? No, I'm just kidding. So I'm just gonna introduce a couple of them and then zoom in on where most folks will find themselves in this kind of mid -market space. So the journey actually starts before you begin. It starts with this moment of dissatisfaction as an employee, as a student, whatever it may be. I call it the dissatisfied employee stage because before you start, there has to be something that causes you to start.

And so this stage really happens before you begin. And what's really useful about this stage is to use it to really learn how do you succeed as an entrepreneur, right? Because it's so dissatisfying, we often have the temptation to just make the leap, right? As soon as I'm ticked at my boss, I'm out, I'm starting my own business. That works sometimes, it doesn't work most of the time, right? And when you look at successful enterprises, the vast majority of them actually take longer to start. They don't start sooner.

And so if you use that time well, you learn some of the rules of the game, you learn how the game is played. It's kind of like being a trainee on the sideline, right? And you're just watching the game as close as you can. And then one day you get the call from the coach and it's like, hey, it's time to go in, right? You're up, Smith, you're up.

And it's like that in the business world, except we make the call, that frustration hits a boiling point and we decide, hey, I'm getting in the game. I'm starting my business, I'm hanging my shingle, I'm going full time, maybe you're hiring your first employee, whatever it may be, but that moment that you step full time into that new business, that's where you step into stage two, which I call the startup entrepreneur. Very, very remarkable title, I know.

But that's what it is, right? It's all about being a startup entrepreneur. It's about going out there and just hustling and working and selling and doing and just doing it all over again. And what happens as you're out there, if you're good at what you do, if you're good at selling, if you're good at delivering, then you'll start getting more more work and then you'll realize I need some help, right? And you'll hire maybe an assistant at first or a part -time employee or a couple of contractors.

Mason Brady (11:48.063)
Thank

Scott Ritzheimer (12:17.27)
And then the thing just keeps growing. It keeps growing, it keeps growing. And one morning you wake up and you look around and you're just thinking, like you get to the office and you think, what is wrong with these people? Like they're driving me crazy. They don't think like I do, they don't act like I do, they don't make decisions like I do, they don't take ownership like I do, they don't work as hard as I do, they're not as committed as I am.

Right? They're just, they're everything that you're not. And it seems like the worst possible way. And what's happened is you've moved from that stage where it's all about you as startup entrepreneur to where it becomes about your team. As what I unfortunately discovered is the third stage, which I've called the reluctant manager. Because...

You know, it's like, man, like Reluctant Manager, really? Yeah, really. Like some of these stages are harder than others and the Reluctant Manager stage is one of them because, I mean, tell me, you work with entrepreneurs, founders all the time. Have you ever heard someone say, I want to start a business so I can lead a team of five to 10 people? No, never, right? Never. In fact, we quit those jobs. Like that's what we left behind.

Mason Brady (13:26.965)
Absolutely not. Never.

Scott Ritzheimer (13:34.656)
And so now we want the success and we see that it requires people, but man, if we could do it without those people, it sure would be great. And so what happens is because they don't think like us, because they don't act like us, and let's be real, because we have to sell five times as much as we did beforehand just to break even.

there's this reluctance that starts to build up. It's like, yeah, I have to manage, I don't wanna manage. These people should be able to manage themselves with what's wrong with them. And the reality of it is, it's not what's wrong with them, although there might be an element of that and almost always is. The reason that that exists is because there's something wrong with the way that you're managing. And in this stage, what you have to do, you have to embrace your role as a manager. Yes, you're still founder.

Yes, you're still CEO, at least that's what your business card says, but you are the principal manager of your business and of your employees. And so embracing that role as manager and really building what your team needs to succeed, not just what you want, but what your team needs to create the success that you want is what opens the door to continuing to grow, to continue to expand. And what happens is,

as we continue to grow and expand, we start needing help actually just managing this thing, right? And don't get me wrong, it's pretty glorious when you can have someone else come in and say, you deal with them, right? Like you deal with all those pesky people over there. And it might be a sales manager, might be an operations manager. If you're from like the EOS community, it might be getting an integrator. But basically what happens is you start bringing in other leaders around you.

and tasking them with managing more and more of the company. And as you do, and if you do this effectively, and if they're the right people, you'll see that they're actually better at that than you, right? And they're probably better at whatever it is that they're doing as well than you are. So your operations manager gets operations better than you do, right? You might not ever say that, and you definitely won't say it to them, but, no, I'm just kidding. But you start feeling yourself kind of being outstripped by the people around you.

Mason Brady (15:44.584)
You

Scott Ritzheimer (15:50.23)
And that's exactly what you want. And it's exactly what you built. But you find yourself standing on the sideline, feeling sidelined because they're making decisions without you. Right. And like sometimes they're wrong, but it's almost worse when they're right because they don't need you anymore. And so this business that was built on your back is now becoming independent of you. And most founders have this kind of Ricky Bobby moment. Like, what do I do with my hands?

Mason Brady (16:19.811)
Shake it back.

Scott Ritzheimer (16:20.152)
And they're standing there on the sideline of their own business, but like feeling like their hands are tied as well. And it's this really hard, really frustrating stage because it looks like you've accomplished everything that you want, right? You've got at least a seven, probably an eight figure business somewhere in that realm.

You're probably making more money than you ever have or at least have the opportunity to you might be investing that heavily. You've got a team around you that's handling a lot of the crap that you used to have to shovel and everything looks like it should be good. In fact, even great. And you tell someone else that you're having a problem, they're like, what's wrong with you? Like you've got everything working for you. But inside you're just dying.

Inside, you're feeling that pain of the coach in the opening sequence, right? Because you keep trying to save the day and it doesn't work. And so this stage is called the disillusioned leader stage. It's stage four of the process. And a lot of folks in the mid -market space, it's really important for them to recognize, first off, this is a stage that everyone goes through. So if you're feeling that way, it's not because you screwed up. In fact,

If you're feeling that way, it's probably because you did enough of the right things to grow to a point that you could feel that way. And number two, you kind of look at the trajectory here. I went from being a reluctant manager, which was like not great, but tolerable, to now I'm a disillusioned leader. And we start looking at like, what's next? Like how deep does this hole go? Right? Like if I continue to succeed, is it going to get harder again?

Is it gonna get worse again? Am I gonna have less freedom and do more babysitting than I have ever before? And it'll leave a lot of people to either back out, right? Hey, I just remember when it was me and a crew and we could just get everything done ourselves. Or hey, maybe we need a professional CEO for my business. Someone who can actually grow this thing. I don't know that I'm really a CEO material. Or.

Scott Ritzheimer (18:39.358)
maybe this is as good as it gets. Like maybe it just sucks. Like maybe I just have to be thankful for what I have and just endure the rest. And there's some truth to all three of those, but the reality of it is the best way forward is none of those. The best way forward is to recognize that the game has changed once again. And your opportunity to not only embrace the sideline and your role there, but to actually step off the sideline up to being a GM in the box.

Right stepping away from that getting other coaches to take your place Developing other leaders on your leadership team and really stack stepping up into that GM space That is actually the very first time it's usually five ten fifteen twenty years into the process But it's actually the very first time that you fully step into the CEO title You've been founder and CEO since you made your first business card, right?

But it's not until, you can't be chief executive if you have no other executives. And once we start moving from this kind of ragtag group of leaders that has been at our right hand for all these years, and we started either developing them or even sometimes, unfortunately, replacing them with higher caliber executive leaders, that's when we get to step into the CEO role, that chief executive role.

And that's really intimidating for a lot of folks. For most founders who have created enough success to get to this point by blood, sweat, tears, and just figuring it out as we go, the idea of stepping up into an executive position, being a CEO, again, it takes a little while to admit it even to ourselves, but it's a very intimidating process.

But I can tell you from walking people through this, I do it all day every day, walking them through from this stage four disillusioned leader to this stage five chief executive is the single most powerful transformation a founder will go through. And it opens the door to genuinely decades of sustainability, especially for you personally, right? Moving into that stage, becoming chief executive, building a strong executive team around you.

Scott Ritzheimer (21:01.176)
is most founders who get into that role find that it actually suits them way better than anything else has so far. And it's really, really cool. Round out the last two. We don't have to spend too much time on them, but just to get an idea of why this is worth it and where it goes next, because folks will sit there and say, now what? What happens from here is you have the opportunity, once you do the CEO role really well and you understand what it takes to do the CEO role,

you now understand to a much greater degree at least what it will take to replace you and to really get another CEO to run your business. Not because you can't, but because you don't have to anymore. And in stage six, we step into the true owner stage, right? True owner by replacing ourself as CEO of our business. And there's just no single stage that has a bigger freedom.

function than that stage. You get to own your business and not run it and it's again borderline magical. And then very last but least is, but not least, is the visionary founder stage where we go from that true owner which is really about our own personal freedom to visionary founder which is about how do we invest that freedom into the success of others, right? Whether that be through writing books, mentoring visionaries,

speaking, giving back to our community, but our focus really does shift from ourselves to others, and it's a powerful, powerful stage.

Mason Brady (22:30.627)
Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me, it almost felt a bit elusive. I was in my corporate career. I have a significant agribusiness background and I was a part of an organization called Western growers association. And they would have these, they'd have these grand board meetings where all these grower packer shippers, you know, of you're talking 200 to $400 million companies, you know, their CEOs or their owners or

you know, chairman of the boards would show up and they would have these things at the most wonderful locations, right? You're talking about, you know, all the way down in Orange County and some of the most, you know, lux hotels that you could possibly think of, but you'd have the heads of state of industry in the room together. And, but I was there because they wanted to develop the next round of board members. Like they invited us in and they were spending their time.

thinking as an industry group that how in the world can we continue to shape this industry so that our business actually does well? it just, it's a whole nother factor of like, how do we ensure that the state government, the federal government is actually thinking about our business in the best way so that our business can continue to thrive and thrive for generations and legacies beyond us? And a lot talk about family businesses and.

Scott Ritzheimer (23:36.056)
Yes.

Mason Brady (23:56.397)
How do we help the next generation? So yeah, from a personal perspective, reaching that stage six and seven, that's what life looks like. yeah, you're going to these wonderful locations and enjoying life and enjoying the business a bit, but you're giving back in so many other ways that actually is coming back around and helping the business. so yeah, it feels a little bit elusive, but it felt like it was a wonderful stage. I couldn't help but think for myself as a business owner too that...

Yeah, when do I reach that point too? That's pretty cool. that was great. That was great walking us through that. I mean, you talked a lot in here about the challenges that those founders face. How would you say, what's one of the, a couple key takeaways. You answered that question. There was a whole lot in there as to some of the key takeaways. But how would you say that founders in the lower middle market

Scott Ritzheimer (24:25.368)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mason Brady (24:51.157)
specifically benefit from understanding this founder's evolution that obviously you walked us through each stage of it, I, know, in this lower middle market, it feels like, you know, most of them are going from that relunctant managers phase to the next one. And they're not quite a huge organization to where they really can be in that full owner visionary founder quite yet. They're kind of yet in that realm where they're starting to think about getting there, but they're not quite there. They're right at.

Reluctant manager and the next and so Yeah, what what can you tell us that would specifically benefit owners in the lower middle market of how do they reach those next pages?

Scott Ritzheimer (25:31.446)
Yeah, it's really, really important. one of the, I'm a podcast host as well, and one of the fair critiques of what we do is have guest after guest after guest saying everyone should do this, right? Every CEO should do this. Every founder should do this. And there's wisdom in that, but we have to add a qualifying criteria, and that is every founder should do this when.

A, B, or C are true. And so the first thing that you have to do, and what drove me to write the book, was you have to know what stage you're in right now. Because if you were to say, hey, what do I need to do to scale my business? Well, if you're in stage three, that's something very different than if you're in stage four. Something very different than if you're in stage five. As CEO, you have three fundamentally different roles through those.

Mason Brady (26:00.279)
Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Ritzheimer (26:28.888)
through those three stages. So for example, in stage three, for many founders, not all, but for the vast majority, they are still wearing a sales hat in a really significant way. Some of them might be representing 100 % of sales still at this point. Some of them might represent a smaller portion, but like 100 % of the big sales.

And what has to happen is if you listen to podcasts and it talks about all the leadership things that you have to be focusing on and you go focus on leading really, really well, but you don't sell something, there's nothing left to lead in six months, right? And so what you have to do in stage three is embrace the dual nature of your role. It's kind of like being captain on the field.

You are on the field. You have a job to do. There are grown men trying to take your head off, right? And you're also trying to lead a group of people at the same time. That's what's so hard about that stage. And what you have to do is really learn to master the balance of how do I manage the right people? We'll come back to that a little bit later. How do I manage the right people effectively? And...

how do I continue to excel in my role and my responsibility here? Which again, nine times out of 10 has a sales portion related to it. And if you don't get those right, if you just say, hey, I'm just gonna go sell a whole bunch of stuff, your company falls apart. If you say, hey, I'm just gonna go manage a bunch of stuff, then your sales disappear. And it's really embracing that dual role in that stage and not trying to opt out too soon.

Right? One of the temptations is, I'll just hire someone to take all the sales for me. That way I don't have to worry about it. Well, let's just play that out. If it doesn't work, that sucks. We know what happens there. But what if it does work? What if you actually hand off selling to somebody else and that one person represents 100 % of your revenue as a company?

Scott Ritzheimer (28:34.828)
Right? That's, that's, that is dangerous, right? Just from a strategic perspective, they may be your best friend in the world, but they look up one day and realize, I am bringing in all the money here, right? And, you know, it's not a whole lot to start, to stop them from starting something else. Let's, let's put it in the best light. Just what happens if something happens to them? And we've built all the relationships through them. And, and so it's really, really risky. Doesn't work the vast majority of the time. So what do we do?

You can't let go of sales too soon. What that means is if you're in stage three and really wrestling with it, the number one thing that you can do to master that balance is to actually hire or promote an operations manager, right? A second -in -command. And it doesn't have to be operations. It can be some other major function, but someone to keep the trains moving on time while you focus on what you need to do. That's the first thing. The second thing is to then take the extra time you have

to sell and market and build a scalable sales and marketing infrastructure. So that's stage three. You have to be very focused on sales and to do that, you have to start handing off the management to somebody else intentionally.

Now, stage four is a little different. Stage four, we already have operations handed off, and what's happening is you can't sell enough to keep the whole machine moving on time. Well, now you have to start bringing in other leaders, and it usually means hiring some type of sales manager. It usually means hiring some type of administrative leader.

And so what you're doing is you have reached the maximum of your ability to go in and solve things by yourself. And so you have to start in stage four hiring other people to execute on the major functions, not just the big problems, but the major functions of the business.

Mason Brady (30:32.995)
I love that it kind of, I listened to a podcast or I watched it somewhere, but no, actually Dan Martell's book, Buy Back Your Time, and he talks a lot about what's the right next thing to delegate. And it makes me think that this idea that it's not just about handing off what you want, it's about handing off the right next strategic things. And like you said, that for business owners in the lower middle market, like, yeah.

we need to see a path to, you know, releasing sales as a function from the owner, like being fully concentrated on the owner so that if a business ever has to transition or exit or whatever the case is that if the owner is gone, all of a sudden we don't lose the business either, right? But to your point that, okay, but the next best thing you can do is to delegate, get an operations manager that handles the backend because then that gives you the time to not just focus on sales, but build a scalable

you know, not highly dependent upon you or a single other person's sales system and program at that point. So yeah, I love that that your advice, Scott is really tactical that, you know, okay, if you're in this stage, what's the next best thing that you can do? So this is good. yeah, I'd love to understand, a little bit more too, that, you know, we've talked a lot about the founders evolution cycle. And so this is good of, you know, what does a business owner go through? But

Scott Ritzheimer (31:35.308)
Yes. Yes.

Mason Brady (31:58.285)
to this point, right? That you've talked about hiring operations manager, building out a team. So once you reach that stage four, you got to get the right people. you know, there there's also kind of a complimentary book amongst this predictable success program called the synergists. And it, it talks about four different leadership profiles, the visionary operator processor and synergists. Can you kind of give us a little bit of background around that and that how does that apply within that stage three to stage four?

kind of the paradigm that some of our audience is probably in right now.

Scott Ritzheimer (32:29.462)
Yeah, it's fascinating how the two line up. So least you need to know what are these four styles. Visionaries generally don't need much of an introduction, right? Big ideas tend to be founders, very high squirrel factor, easily distracted, right? Next best thing. And so great starters, just the consummate starters, awful finishers.

Right, just in the wake of any great visionary, and we're all kind of looking behind us right now, is just this trail of great ideas, not even half implemented, right? Just all these unfinished projects. And so as we're moving into this stage where we have to start bringing some people in to help us, one of the biggest mistakes that we make is hiring the wrong type of people to help.

Mason Brady (32:56.653)
Yeah.

Scott Ritzheimer (33:23.564)
There's really just one type of person that you need, regardless of the role that's being filled. There's one type of person and who you need at that stage. This is moving from stage two to stage three. You need operators. And operators are ruthless finishers. These are folks who will walk through walls to get done whatever you need done, right? The motto of a great operator is tell me what to do and don't watch.

It's not going to be pretty. It's probably not going to get done the way that you would want it to get done, but it will get done to the spec that you lay out. The customer will be happy. The job will be done. And it might be a little bit of duct tape and elbow grease around the back, but it's working. And they're on to the next thing. And then they're on to the next thing. And these two, when they understand each other,

which doesn't take a whole lot of work, just takes recognizing not everyone's gonna be like you and that's a good thing. When you surround yourself with a handful of operators, it makes managing a lot easier. Because yes, they need more detail than you do. They're gonna have more questions than you. They're not gonna be as strategic as you, but who cares, right? Like they're not gonna need so much detail that it just.

It just crushes you. They're not gonna be running off doing all kinds of strategic things instead of getting done what you need to get done. And so one of the really, really important strategies in that stage three is to make sure that you're hiring operators. Make sure that you're not hiring other visionaries like you, right, who have a thousand ideas but wait for someone else to get them done. Make sure you're not hiring processors. Well, who are these processors?

Processors look a lot like operators, especially to visionaries, because they are much more task oriented, and they are far more detail oriented. But operators, their goal is to get the thing done. And if whatever level of detail is absolutely necessary to make that happen, they will do that level of detail and not announce more. Processors, don't necessarily care if the job is done.

Scott Ritzheimer (35:32.876)
because what's most important is that the job be done right. And so you hire a processor in in the early days and they wanna know how to do every single step of the process to make sure that you're happy with their work. What does that mean? It means questions. And just like mountains of questions. Hey, I need you to go run the accounts receivables. We're a little low on cash, payroll's coming up. Can you see what you can stir up in there?

processor says back, do you want me to run the list? How far back do want me to go? Do want me to go just the last 90 days or 180 days or do want me to look like the last three years? If they only owe $5, is that something you want me to try and process or do you want me to just leave it behind?

If they owe $500 ,000, right? Can't charge that on their credit card. Do you want me to give it to you? Do you want to call them? Do you want me to call them? Should I email them first and tell them that you're going to call them? If you call them, what should I propose? It's just like, like it's exquisite, but excruciating level of detail. And one of the reasons why so many reluctant managers are so reluctant is because that they accidentally hired processors.

Mason Brady (36:35.073)
Yeah, too much.

Scott Ritzheimer (36:47.168)
And they realize intuitively it should not be this hard to manage somebody. And processors aren't bad people. We need them, but we need them at the right time. And we'll talk about what that is in a moment. The other group that you don't want to hire are synergists. And this one's really tricky because these folks usually come with pretty good resumes. They're very likable.

They've had success leading teams in a way that like is almost embarrassing to you because it's like, how could I ever hire this person? They've been so successful at this other big organization. And you think when you hire them, it's just going to like your company is going to explode overnight, right? Everything's going to work wonderful because they're just such an amazing leader. And they get here and they have coffee with everybody and everyone likes them. And they drive you crazy because they don't get anything done.

They're used to synergizing a team, not doing anything themselves. And so you're constantly dragging them across the finish line. Of course you're gonna wake up wondering what's wrong with these people. What's wrong with these people is that you have hired the wrong people. So we wanna really dial in on, and that's why these two principles are so important, is because at each stage in the journey, there is a...

there is a style that is particularly useful for that stage. Stage two, it's your own visionary style. Stage three, it's the operator style, learning to manage operators. Stage three, part of what makes stage four so hard, part of the disillusioning is you have to learn to actually deal with those processors we've been avoiding all this time. And stage four, building an executive team, you have to start bringing in synergistic leaders.

And so you can see there's a very clear correlation. What does that mean, Scott? It means, again, first and foremost, you have to know what you need right now. And once you know what you need right now, you have to recognize that different people are capable of providing that. And so you've got to find the right people to provide that at the right stage.

Mason Brady (38:57.507)
I love that, that, yeah, I, you know, I see so many examples where people think, you know, Hey, they're sitting in 30 million revenue as an example. And they look to examples and they want to hire somebody that from a company that's 150 to 200 million revenue. And they say, I know that they'll help me get there. And it's like, no, they may just be successful there. that their personality profile may be successful there, but that isn't necessarily what you need that.

Scott Ritzheimer (39:19.404)
Yes.

Mason Brady (39:26.359)
You know, that's why this trap of like, you know, big career, you know, or big organization types of people, they may not be good in a startup environment. Like they may not be bred for it. and it's okay. And to your point that it's really about the right time. It's not that the person is a bad person or isn't good at their job. It's just the way that they do their job may be the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Scott Ritzheimer (39:40.146)
you

Scott Ritzheimer (39:47.318)
Yes.

Mason Brady (39:53.501)
or maybe the right thing I should say at the wrong time. so. Yeah. you, you spoke into this that, you know, like summarize this a takeaway a bit here, cause that, you know, there was a lot there that founders evolution correlation to leadership style. you did talk, you know, is there any other takeaways that you want our audience to know as to how those two things correlate together that.

Scott Ritzheimer (39:57.058)
That's right.

Mason Brady (40:17.335)
You you did bring it together specific to the particular stages in the founder's evolution of stage three, stage four, et cetera, but anything else that our audience should know about how those two things correlate together and how they should function.

Scott Ritzheimer (40:28.608)
Yeah, the first one is that the stage you're in is very, very helpful in understanding who you need on your team at that stage. The second thing is actually, it takes a little bit more soul searching, and that is that different founders with different leadership styles will find themselves more likely to get stuck at certain stages. So we have to unpack this a little bit more. Very, very few of us are just one style.

Right? And one alone. For example, I'm a visionary processor. So all that conflict we talked about between visionaries and processors happens in my soul. But you could be, maybe you're a visionary operator, right? We see this a lot in the contracting space, the building space. Maybe you're a visionary synergist, right? We see this a lot in nonprofits. We see it a lot in hospitality, right? Or services. Maybe you're a visionary processor like me. Maybe in the tech space we see a lot of.

And what you'll find is that that combination that is largely unique to you also has a pattern associated with it where you are more likely to get stuck in certain stages. So for example, visionary operators are the kings or queens, if you will, of stage two. There is nobody who can succeed as well in stage two as a visionary operator. It's like...

It's just not even fair. At the same time, it sets them up for something called the star player paradox, which is the more effective you are as a star player, the harder it is to become a captain on the field. The faster you work, the greater the likelihood of a pace differential for the people you hire. The smarter you are, the...

the more likely it is that you are unconsciously aware of a significant portion of what makes you successful. And your ability to hand that off is actually limited by your own intelligence, right? And so what happens is, and we won't go through every single permutation of this, but if you find yourself stuck in a stage and maybe you feel like you've been there for a really long time,

Scott Ritzheimer (42:46.232)
A significant portion of why is probably that you really like the stage behind you. You're really naturally good at it and you have to decide, what do I actually want? Do I want to build a company that scales? Do I have to? Or am I just doing that because that's what someone in a business group told me I had to do? And once we can identify, here's what we want.

then it's far less about what our natural skills are and far more about just embracing the one or two skills that we need to add to that natural skill set. So first and foremost, you can use it to really identify who you need on your team. That's really the lowest hanging fruit. But if you find yourself stuck to or kind of drawn to a certain stage or just struggling in a certain stage, a very significant portion of why that is is likely down to that unique blend of styles that you have.

Mason Brady (43:42.563)
That makes complete sense. hope, yeah, for our audience, but even for myself as I'm listening to you, Scott, just, it's like, yeah, picturing so many examples from, you know, either working with clients or working corporate career or even growing a business myself that, wow, like this is so applicable that, you know, it was interesting even amongst our team and, Brady CFO that I had everybody do what's called the Vops quiz. you know, the, the profile quiz and I heavily suggest anybody to our audience to check that out.

but I, I did that quiz and found, okay, I'm definitely a visionary operator and you know, we're, in that stage too right now. And it's like, yeah, I can do this. But then, you know, it was funny because sometimes the visionary comes out in times really strong where I'm sitting there having a team meeting and I have a couple other, you know, actually, you know, more primary visionaries, or I should say people with visionary, you know, strengths and yet they're, they're strong in process or other areas as well.

but I would say that like one of our CFOs that he serves our clients, he is a visionary processor. and that may work well, really well for our clients. But as we were sitting there having a team meeting, you know, he brought up at the end of the meeting, he said, I feel like, I feel like we just talked too much in these meetings. And I was like, yeah, that's the visionary, both of us. And I said, literally we're going to probably the next person we hire is going to have to be a strong operator profile that actually keeps us in line on these meetings. right. And so, actually helps us get this crap done and execute a good quality meeting.

Scott Ritzheimer (45:05.58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mason Brady (45:12.363)
And everybody walks away and says, that was a good use of time and that wasn't just a rambling on about a bunch of different ideas, right? So yeah, I love everything that you've spoken about. And I think what I really take away from this, and I hope our audience takes away is that there's key things needed in your business at the right time, right? And I think so often people can get a piece of advice. So go read business books. They'll go look at these Illuminary types of profiles and they'll say,

Scott Ritzheimer (45:18.082)
Yeah.

Mason Brady (45:42.117)
that's what I need in my business. And it's like, that may not be the right time. And it's important to critically analyze what do you need your business at the right time. And that's why, Scott, in getting to know you and getting to know the Predictable Success and Scale Architects program, that the idea of really what life cycle stage are you at in your business and what do you need at that particular stage because it, you know, if...

Scott Ritzheimer (45:51.99)
Yes.

Mason Brady (46:06.091)
If there was a one size fits all solution, we all know that business would be a whole lot easier. Right. and so that's not the truth that there are things that you need at particular intervals. So this was, this is really great that, you know, I would love to understand, you know, as, kind of a key thing for our audience, a key takeaway that you've, you've, you've shared so much with us, but what's one major takeaway you've, you've shared some wonderful stories here, but what's one major takeaway you want our audience to go home with?

Scott Ritzheimer (46:33.566)
I'm gonna cheat and give two, just one is the only thing that everyone has to do is to recognize what stage you're in, that way you know what only you have to do. again, there's just this, we have more data, more great advice, more great strategies being put in our face every single day than most founders did in an entire lifetime. And so it's never been more important now than.

then now to be ultra clear on what stage you're in. But Mason, I want to speak to something that we haven't really talked about in the show so far, but I think is really, really important. Most founders are that kind of type A, take the next hill, right? Driven to pursue. And one of the really dark sides of having a really clear understanding of these stages is to think,

that's why I'm so frustrated. I'm in stage three. Well, okay. Once I get to stage five, I'll be okay. Right? Once I get to stage six, I'll be successful. You know, I'll have time for me and my family. Once I get to stage seven, I'll think that I actually matter. Right? And what happens is we set up these somewhat arbitrary milestones. Right? These are real stages, but they're not milestones to be achieved. Right?

And if we mistake the milestone as if it's somehow the key object of our joy, what happens is it robs us of the joy of every step along the way. I work with folks all the time, especially with the succession planning that we do, that are in stages five and six. And they're leading very successful organizations, they're dealing with a ton of complexity, and there are...

many occasions where they've said to me like, Scott, I just remember those days, right? And then they described stages three and four. I just wish it was like that again. And then Mason, I get off the phone, I get onto a call with someone who's in stage three and they're like, man, I can't wait until I'm in stage five. Everything's gonna be so wonderful. It's like, if you could only hear the conversation I just had right before I picked up.

Scott Ritzheimer (48:54.624)
And the reality of it is, if we're not careful putting our joy on hold, we will miss the very joy that's available to us right here, right now, and only available to us right here and right now. And so one of the things that I did in the book, and the book's free for anyone who wants it, they can get it at scalearchitects .com slash founders and get a full copy of the book for free, is I take a moment.

at the end of each chapter, one chapter for each of these stages, and just lay out, there is something available to you. There's a joy that's available to you right here, right now in this stage, no matter how hard it is, that is only available in this stage.

And if you're so dead set on just doing whatever it takes to get to the next stage, you'll miss out on the joy available in this stage. And then I can all but guarantee you will miss out on the joy that's available in the next stage and you'll miss out on the joy that's available in the next stage. And so the one thing I really want folks to recognize is once you know what stage you're in, don't weaponize the next stage against yourself. Find the joy that's available to you right here, right now. And it makes the whole

journey so much easier.

Mason Brady (50:09.955)
I think you've brought a lot of truth to the reality that there's difficulties in each stage and we have to accept that but at the same time that this is a journey that reality is in anything in life that we don't reach the end point until we really reach the end point and we're a couple feet under type of thing. Entire life is journey. I sat in a lunch the other day with a

David weekly of David weekly homes based out of Houston. And it's a $3 billion, you know, home construction business. And this is a guy that is giving 50 % of his profits away, to a charitable trust every year. And so you think about that, you do the backend math of say, has a 10 % net margin business. The guy is giving away $150 million seen on revenue every year. He just talked about how he went on a plane flight and he met with all these new startup billionaires in Silicon Valley and none of them.

really had a faith perspective, but they were all getting together to figure out how do they give away more of their wealth. And he gave examples of explicitly what he was doing and he just hoped that that was an influence that he could share. that's a, that's a stage that he's in. and he's, he's trying to embrace it, but it's a, it's a next stage of actually figuring out how in the world does this carry on that I have created this legacy, but now, especially for my children, everybody involved, I have to figure out.

how this carries on and this isn't too much of a burden for them. And so he's accepting that, yeah, he's reached a next pinnacle to where he can do anything he wants. mean, the dude has a mass of wealth, but there's a next stage of responsibilities, but he's also, he's enjoying it and he's sharing the story with all of us, but there is a next stage of responsibility. But at the same time, trying to enjoy it. But the one thing that he brought up that somebody asked about, and I think to your point that we want to make sure we don't have regrets is he said,

you know, he worked 70, 80 hour work weeks when he was in the, he didn't call it the stages, but he was back in stage two, stage three, et cetera. And he said, I regret that. I wish I had spent more time with my kids. And so, you know, if you get, you know, like you said, if you get stuck in these elements of just wanting to get to the next one, all of a sudden you can gun it and you miss out on the joys of what's happening in life, right? So that's awesome. That obviously you shared with the audience how they can find your book, how they can learn more about the founder's evolution.

Mason Brady (52:32.405)
Where can our audience learn more about you, Scott?

Scott Ritzheimer (52:34.754)
Yeah, the Scale Architects website is the best resource. Everything from, you can read more about my biose, other appearances podcasts I've been on. Take a listen to our show, it's called The Secrets of the High Demand Coach Podcast. Fantastic show, we bring in amazing guests. It's really, really helpful. yeah, all of that you can find right at the Scale Architects website, scalearchitects .com.

Mason Brady (52:59.427)
Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for joining us today, Scott. Really appreciate all your insight and advice.

Scott Ritzheimer (53:04.502)
Mason, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Mason Brady (53:06.315)
Awesome. Thanks to everybody here and make sure you subscribe and thank you everybody for listening.

Mason Brady (53:14.828)
You are a masterful