#64 Podcast Guesting to Promote Your Online Course with Alex SanFilippo of PodMatch

Podcast guesting can be one of the most strategic ways for online course creators to grow their visibility, build authority, and get in front of the right people without relying only on social media or paid ads.

In this episode of The ART of Online Course Creation, I’m joined by Alex Sanfilippo, founder of PodMatch and a leading voice in the independent podcasting space, to talk about how course creators can use podcast guesting as a relationship-driven marketing strategy.

If you’ve ever thought, “I’m not famous enough to be a guest on someone’s podcast,” this conversation will shift how you think about it.

Alex breaks down why podcast guesting is not reserved for celebrities, authors, or people with massive audiences. Instead, it can be one of the most accessible ways to borrow someone else’s audience, build trust faster, and share your expertise in a setting where listeners are already paying attention.

We talk about what makes podcasting different from other visibility strategies, why the right podcast appearance can create a powerful sense of borrowed credibility, and how to choose shows that actually align with your course, your audience, and your business goals.

Alex also shares practical advice on how to pitch yourself in a way that feels human, respectful, and relevant, without sounding like every other generic pitch sitting in a podcast host’s inbox. He gives a clear framework for reaching out to hosts, preparing for an interview, showing up as a strong guest, and creating a call to action that feels like a natural next step rather than a forced sales pitch.

This episode is especially valuable if you want to grow your authority, reach new potential students, and market your online course in a way that feels generous, relational, and grounded in real value.

Alex Sanfilippo is a podcaster and the founder of PodMatch.com, a platform that automatically matches podcast hosts and guests for interviews. Through PodMatch and his podcast titled Podcasting Made Simple, Alex helps independent podcasters grow their influence and revenue so they can better serve their listeners!

Freebie: www.podmatch.com/free

Get started on your own course creation journey or learn how to make your existing course even better at The "Your Best Course" Build Lab, my interactive and supportive online community.

To get started creating your own online course, check out my new freebie that will take you through the steps of choosing a topic that will be profitable for YOU.

To book a call to discuss your options and see if working together makes sense.  Click here. 😊

Transcript

Alex Sanfilippo 0:00

it's something that develops no, like, and trust, unlike anything else I've ever seen in my life. Like, like it's very rare that someone decides to listen to a podcast to waste their time, right? Like that's what we do to scroll on social media. And I don't have anything wrong with social media, but we don't show up in the same mindset when we turn on a podcast versus when we open up an app like TikTok or Instagram, right? Like we have very different perspectives going on our head or what we're wanting to accomplish.

Shannon Boyer 0:22

Welcome to The Art of Online Course Creation, the podcast dedicated to purpose-driven entrepreneurs like you who are passionate about creating impactful online courses. I'm your host, Shannon Boyer. As an experienced educator, I understand that craft. Exceptional online courses requires more than just mastering online marketing. It demands strategic planning, dedication, and a focus on delivering real value. Each week we dive into the essentials of high quality course creation, share inspiring. Success stories and provide practical tips to help you build courses that truly make a difference. Whether you're just starting out or looking to enhance your existing courses. This is your go-to resource for creating a digital course that leaves a lasting impact. Okay, two things before we start. First, grab your notebook and second, gather your in. Because we are going to create something special together. Your journey to developing transformative online courses starts now.

1:30

I am so excited to welcome Alex Sanfilippo to the show today. Alex is honestly one of the most positive and supportive people I know, and he's humble as well. What he won't tell you is that alongside of being the founder of Podmatch, a platform for podcast guests and hosts to find each other, he is also the winner of the 2023 Podcast Influencer of the Year Award, Podcaster of the Year for 2024, and was also highlighted by Forbes as a voice for independent podcasters. Today, I have the pleasure of talking to him about how to borrow other people's audiences by podcast guesting to help you sell your online course. You definitely won't wanna miss this one

Shannon 2:15

Welcome, Alex. I am so excited to have you on the show today because we're gonna be talking about podcast guessing guesting for course creators. And if there's anybody who knows what it takes to do podcast guesting properly, I'm pretty sure it's you. So welcome to the show.

Alex Sanfilippo 2:30

Thank you so much me. I'm really happy.

Shannon 2:33

Yeah. Great. So for those who may not know you yet, can you share a little bit about your background? Um, most people know you for Pod match, and we're gonna get into that in a second. But what led you to where you are today?

Alex Sanfilippo 2:46

Yeah, sure. I, I started podcasting as just a side hustle back in 2013 and, uh, really fell in love with the medium. I, I really, I mean, I had a failed attempt immediately, like most people who get into podcasting, right? But then after that, really kind of figured out a good balance in it. And ever since then I've been a podcaster and really just. Love that industry. I, I come like my full-time job. Back then I was in the aerospace industry and I was an executive. Nothing interesting. Wasn't an astronaut, wasn't a skydive, wasn't a fighter pilot. So nothing interesting with a parts manufacturing company, but it was extremely cutthroat and it was really competitive and that was just the pace. And so like this side hustle I was doing with just podcasting, having a blast, it was full of people with like an abundance mindset. And so Shannon, I can, I'll never forget, like, I just always remember being like, man, I wish I would. People to do this full-time somehow. And, um, one thing led to another and eventually I, I had a show that started doing really well and it got me on stages at different podcasting conferences. I started helping some people out with their shows and one thing led to another and eventually had the idea to launch Pod Match, which is a software that automatically connects podcasts, guest and hosts for interviews. A lot of people, Shannon have said that it works kinda like a dating app, but instead I've can't you for dates. Connects you for podcast interviews. I've

Shannon 3:53

Absolutely.

Alex Sanfilippo 3:54

to know what a dating app does, but, um, it sounds about right. So yeah, the

Shannon 3:58

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 3:58

just we, we connect those right people together really fast. And ultimately that's what caused me to make my side hustle my full-time gig, uh, back in 2020. And I'm, I've been really grateful. It's been an industry's been great to me and I've just devoted my life and my time to understanding podcasting and helping support podcasters on both sides of the microphone, so guests and host, and absolutely loving what I do. It's, it's been a, a gift to get to do this with my life.

Shannon 4:21

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because I had the exact opposite story where I was like, absolutely no way will I ever have a podcast. And, uh, look where we are today. So, um, and you played a big role in that and, uh, we'll get to that in just a second. But I want to start by talking about the role that podcasting, and we're gonna talk specifically about guesting today. So the role that podcast guesting can play for an online course creator. Um, there's several things that I think it can do to help them with their visibility, authority, uh, et cetera. I'm gonna let you talk about that more than me. But for someone who has never guessed on a podcast before, why, why that might, why might that be something that they would wanna consider doing?

Alex Sanfilippo 5:05

I. One of the biggest authority builders in the world today. Uh, and I'll just talk about the SEO benefit for a moment. I, I think that's covered probably quite a bit at, at this point. But just from an SEO standpoint alone, you're getting back links from Apple, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube, Google, and thousands of other very high domain websites. And so when it, you typically go on a podcast somewhere in the show notes you're getting linked to, and again, all these different sources where they're linking to you, which helps your authority online. get boosted again from an SEO perspective, but that to me is like one of the hidden benefits. But the real thing is just what it does to connect you with the people that you're ultimately looking to serve. I mean by that is. it's something that develops no, like, and trust, unlike anything else I've ever seen in my life. Like, like it's very rare that someone decides to listen to a podcast to waste their time, right? Like that's what we do to scroll on social media. And I don't have anything wrong with social media, but we don't show up in the same mindset when we turn on a podcast versus when we open up an app like TikTok or Instagram, right? Like we have very different perspectives going on our head or what we're wanting to accomplish. So it develops this know, like, and trust. And I'll just quickly share a short story. Of my own experience with this. Going back many years ago, at one point I was interested in trying out SMS marketing, which basically means like te text message marketing. I didn't know anything about it. And so I went to a search engine and I found three companies that do it. Still knew nothing about it, so I just opened those up and I had 'em saved. I'm like, okay, there's, there's companies that can help with this. And then I opened my podcast app and I started typing how to be successful as a podcast or as a, I'm sorry, as a SMS marketer or how to SMS market to grow your business. Right? Like I just started typing in anything I could find. And I ended up finding somebody who was on a bunch of podcasts and had his own talk about. This SMS marketing idea like, which was just foreign to me. And I really liked him, like he really made sense. I developed this, no, like and trust with this individual. And what do you know? I found out one of those three companies, he was the marketing director for one of those three companies. And so you can imagine, Shannon, which one I signed up for. And the funny thing is. It was the most expensive of the three. Like, not, not crazy, but it was more expensive than the other two. But again, I had built this relationship that's no like and trust with this individual. 'cause I feel that he poured into me teaching me how to be successful as an SNS marketer and I, that's what gave me the confidence to go ahead and purchase their product. Knowing like, if this, if this guy's behind it, like I want to be part of it. That's the

Shannon 7:23

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 7:24

I can give about some of the power that I've actually witnessed firsthand from podcast guesting.

Shannon 7:29

And I can second that because I've had the same experience where I've had someone actually sign on to like my highest ticket product. And when I ask them, how did you hear about me? How did you get into my world? Um, you know, sometimes it's through my podcast, but it has also been like. I heard you on this other person's podcast and uh, I think that there's like a, the double authority there 'cause it's not just you on your own podcast talking and promoting yourself. Someone else has given you that platform and invited you onto their show. Um, which even boosts that even more now. It's like their, um, endorsement of you almost.

Alex Sanfilippo 8:05

Absolutely. I think that the beauty of that is, again, like your audience here today, Shannon, everybody who's listening today, all, everyone who's like, oh, the, the art of online course creation, like that is my jam. I'm Shannon's who I learned from. I'm here today. I don't have to myself as being credible, like you've

Shannon 8:19

Yeah,

Alex Sanfilippo 8:20

that work for me. And that is a gift for me to be here today and be able to, to say that. And I'm, I'm seriously honored to be here

Shannon 8:26

well.

Alex Sanfilippo 8:27

guests should be right, but like that is the beauty of being a podcast guest is someone's already done the work for you saying, Hey, this person's legit, or I wouldn't have had. On,

Shannon 8:34

Yeah. Yeah,

Alex Sanfilippo 8:35

being a podcast guest, like there's no like, Hey y'all, lemme tell you why I deserve to be here. Like, you don't need to do that, right? Like, someone's already done that work for you. And that,

Shannon 8:45

yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 8:45

anyway. So,

Shannon 8:46

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 8:47

really nice. I can just show up and just add value and serve and not have to worry about if people are gonna be like, can I trust this guy Shannon, trusts me. Therefore, hopefully the entire audience knows they can trust me as well.

Shannon 8:57

Absolutely. And I work with so many people who hate the marketing side of this business. They want to help people, they want to provide value, they wanna create their courses and share their knowledge, skills, and expertise. Um, but they don't wanna do the marketing part. So, yeah. I love that you pointed that out because somebody else is, is basically doing that for you. I wanna talk about some of the myths around getting started as a podcast guest. And I know this was very true for myself as well. I didn't even consider it because I thought you have to be someone famous. You have to have written a book, you have to have, you know, blah, blah blah. Or an audience of this size or whatever before someone's ever gonna have you on your show. What is your opinion on that, and what would you say to somebody who's feeling that way?

Alex Sanfilippo 9:41

I mean, I felt the same way as well, Shane. I think that's how we all feel because, because this is such an authority driving medium, I think that's very common that everyone's like, oh well I can't because, or I'm not there yet. Right? And the reality is that's just not the truth. And what opened me up to podcast guesting, like I had my own show for years before I was a guest on a podcast. 'cause I just

Shannon 9:59

Oh wow.

Alex Sanfilippo 10:00

I'm not famous enough, right? Like I don't, I don't have enough followers or whatever you need. And then I was listening to one of the biggest podcasters in the world that time and he talked about his top episodes of his show and he said, fun fact. He's like, I've had all kinds of celebrities on a-list. Celebrities like household names on He goes, and none of them are the most popular episodes. He goes, my most popular episodes are people that, none of it, none of you have ever heard of.

Shannon 10:21

Wow.

Alex Sanfilippo 10:21

that met along the way and they were really authentic and they showed up well and I had 'em on and, and then I went to another podcast, another big show, and they said the same thing. I was like, wait a minute. Maybe you don't need to be famous. And sure enough, I reached out in a very authentic way. And that, by the way, is my, that is my hopeful takeaway for everybody here today. You just reach out. That's what you need to do. You, you don't get on a podcast by not asking. You gotta ask. Right? But I, I just decided to do that and I did it in a very authentic way. And the person's like, yeah, I've actually been looking for someone just like you to come on the show. And I can tell you've been listening, right? Like we, we had the conversation back and forth and next thing you know, I started podcast guesting and I didn't have to act like I had done more than I had. What people wanted from me was. Authenticity. They wanted the real version of me totally raw. And it seemed like the more raw I could be, better I did. Versus trying to be like, well, I, I accomplished this and this and this, right? Like, I

Shannon 11:08

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 11:09

anyone I was a fighter, pilot, pilot before, right? Like, I never lied about that. I just tell the truth that wasn't

Shannon 11:12

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 11:13

it, it's done really well for me.

Shannon 11:15

Yeah. That's awesome. Um, and it's interesting that you did, uh, hosting first and thought you weren't good enough for guesting. And I, mine was the other completely opposite, other way around where guesting was actually what got me into this world. And then I was maybe like, maybe I can have, you know, be, be my own host. So that's really interesting to hear that your perspective was completely different. That's a perfect segue now to, okay, hopefully everybody's out there starting to think like, okay, maybe this is for me, maybe I can do this. What, how do they get started? How do you begin to find somebody who will have you on their show? And even more so let's also talk, not more so, but let's also talk about how to pick the right show and are there any shows that you shouldn't go on? What's your thought on that?

Alex Sanfilippo 12:04

Yeah. So first and foremost, I think that really understanding your why, your purpose behind it. And listen, everyone here, you all are course creators, so I think you probably have a pretty. Thought out and thorough reason for being there. Anyway, so I'm, I'm not gonna speak to that too much, but that to me is the first thing I would teach somebody brand new is make sure you really know why, and then know who's listening. And what I mean by that is look at a show and think, does someone who would want my course listen to this show? Right. So like you don't want to just go on any show that'll have you. And there is I guess something to be said for getting some reps in and stuff like that. If you love golf but you have nothing to do, your course has nothing to do with golf. Maybe maybe go on one or two just to, to do it for fun, right? Uh, but the majority of the time you wanna spend it looking for a show that you say, the people who listen to this tie back to my why. And they would be interested in my course. Like that's what you want to to know. And it doesn't necessarily need to be directly that thing. What else do they like? Right? Example, football players don't only listen to football podcasts. They probably listen to strength training podcasts, they probably listen to nutrition podcasts. They probably listen to podcasts about chiropractics, stretching, right? Like everything you can imagine. 'cause

Shannon 13:04

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 13:04

adjacent. And so that's what you want to think about as a podcast guest. You wanna say, okay, this is why I'm showing up. This is what the result I want, and this is the person I serve. And I think they're listening to this type of show.

Shannon 13:14

Right.

Alex Sanfilippo 13:14

always suggest to get started, the best thing you can do is, is start going to the directories, apple, Spotify. Uh, even YouTube can be helpful these days and start typing in some searches and you have to go a little bit down the list. 'cause the top shows they're getting pitched a lot and often they're not even really the best shows to be on and not try to throw any shade their way of the top shows. It just might not do what you're thinking. Uh, people that listen to some of the smaller, more niche shows are typically. People that like the wrongness and the authenticity of it, and they don't want to listen to another celebrity, right?

Shannon 13:44

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 13:44

listen to something else. You might scroll for a bit to find that type of thing. Beyond that, there's plenty of directories. I mentioned my own service pod match, which helps with this as well. But do your due diligence. Look around and there's directories that will help with this. I encourage you start, just start looking around, do some searching. Um, AI can help. Search engines can help social media search engine, like the searching on social media can help. All that stuff will start kind of be your friend, so you can start honing it down and narrowing it down what you're looking for.

Shannon 14:09

Yeah, excellent. And you know, you're being very humble. Pod match was what got me started in guesting. And helping me make that connection between people who are actively looking for guests and um, you know, being able to match my skills and expertise with that. And I think that that's a really great feature of Pod Match because a lot of people who have shows are not actually actively looking for guests. They have enough people who they know, or, you know, they might not even do interviews. So it's, it's great that it's a person who's actively look list looking and then that really. Kind of capitalizes on your time because you're not wasting time sending out dozens and dozens of pitches to, uh, shows that are not actively looking for, uh, uh, for it people, for guests. So, um, yeah. That's awesome.

Alex Sanfilippo 14:58

C Shannon, real quick, thank you for that. Um, know, this about me and now

Shannon 15:01

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 15:02

do as well. I I don't like to show up to sell anything and like yeah, I do. I, I'm a firm believer that pie match is, is the solution out there. And I use it exclusively at this point, to your point. 'cause I want to know that someone's actually looking for a guest. I, I hate selling stuff. I'm here to add value and serve. And I, I just wanna say thank you for actually for referencing that. Um, I, I do encourage everyone, do your due diligence, look around, but, uh, it is a good solution. Shannon and I both use it quite a bit for podcast guesting ourselves.

Shannon 15:25

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I liked your suggestion also, and I think it's a really important one that you know before you even. Pitch, potentially probably listen to the show, like really do your research and that's takes time. And I think a lot of people just wanna kind of spam a bunch of shows because it takes time. But I have had the experience where even after I did a little bit of research, um, and accepted a show, I did even more research than preparing for the show and realized there was not alignment and it was not a show that I should. That I wanted to be associated with. Um, so that was a really good example of like, I should have done more research, um, you know, at the very beginning and, and made sure I didn't get myself in that awkward position. I don't wanna scare anybody off. Um, because, you know, that's, that's not a common thing I don't think. But you, you do need to make sure that if somebody accepts you, it's actually a show that you wanna be on.

Alex Sanfilippo 16:19

Absolutely. Before you reach out, I always suggest listening and so like I, I do that same thing and there was a show that I, I thought I wanted to be on it. Started listening to it 'cause everything matched up, right? I looked at their profile was on pod match, everything looked good and I started listening and the guy used a lot of language that I don't use and expected his guest to be at that same level and that that's nothing wrong with the show. Right? Just not on an alignment. Like I was not gonna show up in the right way. I was probably made fun of because I'm a guy who, like, I never cuss for

Shannon 16:44

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 16:44

words. That's just who I am. Right. So, and like I, I would never show up and do that. And I'm like, he's gonna expect it. 'cause man, they like being nasty here. You know,

Shannon 16:52

Oh yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 16:53

again, like I listened for five minutes and I learned that this one's not for me. And I, I think that, that one, I think that separates you because I've also met people that have been guests on shows. Um. Not even particularly through PIM match. I had somebody the other day reach out on LinkedIn and was like, oh man, I thought podcast guessing was me cool. But I won the show and it was terrible. I was like, why was it terrible? Like the host was hard for me to understand. I didn't like the way he communicated and in my head, I didn't say this, but I'm like, well, you should have listened first. 'cause you would've been able to know before you ever showed up. Your due diligence really matters. You wanna look for that synergy before you show up because. I know today we're gonna talk a little bit about like having a good interview, a good conversation on a podcast

Shannon 17:28

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 17:29

going to be determined by the synergy that you have with somebody. And if you can vet that, you will have good synergy or won't before you get started. You're gonna save everybody's time.

Shannon 17:37

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we are gonna talk about that. But just before we do, let's talk about that pitch. And so you find a good show, you are gonna put yourself out there. What is that process? What do you recommend and what makes the difference in your mind between somebody who gets accepted and somebody who gets just kind of brushed over?

Alex Sanfilippo 17:57

Yeah. Um, I'm gonna talk really fast and give seven points real quick, Shannon, if that's okay.

Shannon 18:01

Okay. Yeah, you do it.

Alex Sanfilippo 18:02

Uh, for everybody's knowledge here. I just finished coming up with the new way that I pitch. Um, the world has changed quite a bit and I'll kind of share that along with this, but I've got seven steps that I do every time I'm pitching. And a pitch is just a fancy way of saying the way that you reach out to a podcast host. Where if you reach out, email, dms, pod, match, voice, text, however you're doing it, right, any way that you're reaching out, that is called the pitch, is what we call it. And so it's you basically saying, I wanna be on your show. And so there's seven things that I do. Um, every single time I'm gonna be a guest on a podcast. And so take notes with this, everybody. Uh, step one is to keep it short. Podcasters typically don't love to read. That's why they got into podcasting and talking, right? So, uh, keep it really short. So, and I find it takes a lot of, um. It takes a lot of time to write a short pitch, but no time at all to write a long one. It shows that you did some work. So step one is to keep it short. Step number two is don't use ai. Um, even if we're experts at ai, I'm telling you podcast hosts get, I get pitched between 10 and 20 times per day. so I've seen all of the AI pitches, the good, the bad, the ugly. I've seen 'em all, and I'm not alone in that. Most podcasters have seen the same pitch over and over again. So if even if you feel like you've done a perfect job prompting, it's in your voice perfectly, a podcast host is gonna see it. Know this was ai and I promise you're gonna get skipped if you wanna stand out and be different. Let be human. Write it yourself. Even if it's not perfect, it's gonna be good. So one, keep it short. Two, don't use ai. Number three, lead with value. this used to mean tell people you listened and then give 'em a takeaway you took from it. But now that AI can pull episodic data, I'm finding that's not working as well anymore because AI knows what you said in your latest episode. And so it's able to pull out out somebody listening. So a lot of people know hosts, I assume I should say. not real. And so what I found the highest form of value you can add to a podcaster is go to Apple Podcasts, leave a five star rating and review. Take a screenshot of it and attach that. So for me, I typically start off my, my, um, my pitch. With that, I'd say, Hey Shannon, uh, great podcast. I just left it a five star rating review on Apple Podcast. I just attached it here like that right there. That's a strong way to lead with value to start off right.

Shannon 20:03

That's an incredible tip. That is an incredible tip right there.

Alex Sanfilippo 20:06

I, I've actually publicly said, if you wanna get on my podcast, do that step that if you only do that, you'll come on my podcast. been talking about this for years, and I've had tens of thousands of pitches at this point. I've had two people ever do it. And I mean, I, I've been podcasting for so many years now, right? Two people

Shannon 20:21

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 20:21

Uh, it, it takes effort.

Shannon 20:23

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 20:23

it's the, the way to lead with value, uh, number four is to make a meaningful request. I think this is where a lot of us get it wrong. We ask to be a guest on a podcast or sometimes don't. I've gotten pitches with no clear asking. I don't even really know what somebody wants, right?

Shannon 20:35

Mm.

Alex Sanfilippo 20:36

But a meaningful request means you've gone through the recent backlog to see if your topic has been covered. For, for an example here, if I was gonna reach out to Shannon and be like, Hey, Shannon, want to, here's your five star rating review, like I already said. Right? Uh, I left that for you. And, uh, I noticed on the art of online, um, course creation that you've not had a recent episode, episode talk about how podcast guesting can help convert people to course, um, to purchasing a course. Uh, is that a topic you'd be interested in covering? If so, I'd, I'd love to talk about it. that's a meaningful request. 'cause you did some of the host work for them. Now the host might say, wait, have I not covered that for real? Or, I've never thought of that. What a great idea. You're doing some of the work for them. that to me is really important. Now, step five is to offer credibility. And I find a lot of us overthink this one, myself included. Like I'm a, I'm a chronic overthinker at times, Shannon, like I, I think too deeply about stuff, but all I've found that this really means at the highest level is who they know that, you know. you like that they like. I'll use an example. Has anyone ever been cut off in traffic? Show of hands, right? We've all been cut off one point or another. Sometimes you just get, well, sometimes every time for me, I get really angry, but occasionally someone will cut me off, but they'll have a bumper sticker that really resonates with me and I

Shannon 21:45

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 21:45

from anger being like, they probably didn't mean to do that. there's association there, I'm like, we'd probably be friends. Like they obviously didn't mean to versus that jerk, right?

Shannon 21:54

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 21:54

and so for, for all of us, we gotta think about this idea of credibility of like, who do we know that they know? The easiest way to do this is go to social media and just click who they're following and see who you have in common. Like it's very easy, especially on, on Instagram, you can see who you follow in common. Just be like, Hey, I've also had this person on, or I've done this person's show, this person's show where I shared a stage with this person. Or, Hey, I saw your recent post about golden doodles. I have a Golden Doodle as well. Like anything like that is going to build this connection that you can grow off of,

Shannon 22:22

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 22:22

somebody that like, Hey, there's some connection we have here. And so the the six, um, sorry, that's, that's 0.5, right? Uh, 0.6 And only say this one if you mean it. And I, I think. To me, it's a best practice still. But mention that you're willing to share the episode again, only if you really are, but I find that most podcast guests are not willing to share the episode. They, they wanna be, they wanna be on the podcast and they never wanna hear from the host again. And that's, that's fine if that's what they want. But hosts really like a connection. They really like to know that, Hey, we're gonna co-share this thing. We're gonna grow it together. And if you're willing to just mention that you're willing to share the episode. And the very last point here, number seven, is to be kind and casual. Podcast hosts are normal people. If you're too formal, if you're too blunt, too anything like I find it doesn't really resonate. But if you just show your personality through it and be a little bit laid back, you turn to see, tend to see much better results that way. So these are the seven steps I'm using to pitch to be a guest on podcast, and it is working really, really well for me right now.

Shannon 23:19

Yeah. Uh, so much value there, like that little. Five minutes or whatever it was, is worth the whole show to people because, uh, it's just such a practical way to get started. Of course, we all have a framework that we can follow, but gold in the tips. Um, and I think a lot of stuff that people probably wouldn't have thought of. I think especially the tip about do some of the work for the host. I get a lot of pitches from like. Booking agents, I don't know if that's what they're called, but are pitching on behalf of someone else. And it's, you can tell it's the same thing over and over again. Here's their talking topics, here's, you know, their expertise. And I have to do a lot of the mental work to figure out if is, will this person fit onto my show? What would they talk about? What? So to do that and say like, here's how I fit into your show. I think that ups the ante for the, uh, the yes. Even more like Totally. Uh, yeah, such a great point there. What are your feelings on booking agents? Because I, there's, there's great promises that they have and I can see someone potentially thinking that they should go that that route. Do you have an opinion on that? I.

Alex Sanfilippo 24:24

Yeah, it, it is a lot more work 'cause you're now working through like a third party so it turns into more work. And listen, if you're a wanting to be a podcast guest. A booking agency can take a lot of the load off of you. I would just make sure that they're doing a good job. There's some booking agencies that reach out to me and they, like, they do all this work. They're, they're like, this is my job. Like, I'll help you, I'll, I'll frame the fitment up for this person. Like what you all could talk about. And when people do that. Those I'm happy with, but the kinda the spray and pray method of like, Hey, I represent 50 clients and you've gotten the same email from the same person

Shannon 24:55

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 24:55

times with five different people. It's kinda like, man, you're, you're just hoping your job is to get them on 10 podcasts this year. And

Shannon 25:01

Yeah,

Alex Sanfilippo 25:02

I give you one of those, then check. Right? And

Shannon 25:04

yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 25:04

um, I pass on

Shannon 25:05

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 25:06

respectfully. I hate saying no, by the way. I'm like a people pleaser at the, at my core. I, I'm sharing all of my deepest secrets here today. Um, but, uh, so I hate letting people down, but I. I, I owe it to my audience to make sure that it's good and I, I feel I have too much work to do.

Shannon 25:20

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 25:20

Sometimes I can't show up the way I want to, and I, I'm, I'm worried that they won't be able to either.

Shannon 25:24

Yeah, I feel the same way. Okay. We've decided that we're gonna go on a show. We found a show, we've been accepted to this show. Now it's time to show up and be a good guest. What? You've got a ton of experience. Not only doing this yourself, but also having guests. On your show, what do people need to do to be a good guest and what makes the difference between somebody who really knocks it out of the park and somebody who's kind of a wma because. Let's be honest. Just because you have booked the show and recorded the show doesn't mean that the show is always going to get aired. Now, I'm also a people pleaser and I've never not aired a show, but I have talked to people who have said that was not a good, uh, recording, that was not a good interview. I'm never going to air that. So, and I don't wanna, again, I don't wanna scare people, but we wanna show up and be a good guest and provide values. So what are your tips for people once they are on the show?

Alex Sanfilippo 26:21

Yeah. Um, well first off, we call it an interview, like that's, we even say that on pod matches with. Website, like get booked for interviews. The reality is, is a conversation.

Shannon 26:29

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 26:30

actually an interview. Like if you think about like I used to, I had my aerospace job. I interview people all the time. I've hired so many people, it's unbelievable. An interview is a little bit like a inter in an interrogation, right? And I think if we walk in with the mindset of I'm being interviewed now, don't get me wrong, there are some truly interview based shows where you are basically being interrogated. Again, if you listened before, you'll know that you're getting into that. But most of them. It's just a conversation,

Shannon 26:51

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 26:52

you can match the host energy in that conversation and not dominate the conversation, right, again, that that turns into more of a monologue by you,

Shannon 26:59

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 26:59

that it seems to go. And at the end of the day, I, I think there's almost no way to get it wrong. If you can match the host energy and keep it within the time, they wanna keep it in and, and have a back and forth dialogue on something. And so to me, like I think that that's, that's the biggest key. Beyond that storytelling goes a really long way. Somehow weaving in a story or two to, to, to send a point home, to make the whole thing as well, feel like a narrative from start to finish. And Shannon, you did, you did a beautiful job today so far. I don't wanna give you too much credit. I'm just kidding. Um, so far you've done a good job of making this flow. We didn't talk about pitching and then why you should be a guest on a podcast and then what to do after, and then what to do during, right. Like, that flow wouldn't make sense.

Shannon 27:38

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 27:39

listener has to say, oh, I wish they talk about this, or, wait, I'm lost, if that's coming up. It feels scattered. That's not gonna be a great episode. Even if what you share is beautiful and really good, it's not gonna be all that good because it doesn't feel like a story, it doesn't feel like it flows at a narrative, a natural progression where somebody's mind can keep up with what's happening. And so I, I, I think that that's huge. Kind of like you talk about with courses, Shannon, like I, I was listening to your, your probably one of your latest solo episodes at time recording this episode 60 from March 31st, 2026. It was really well done. You talked about how. Like it's an experience, like, just 'cause you're sharing good information, that's, that's not enough. That's not what makes it valuable, right? The whole thing is an experience. And for me, I believe podcast guessing is very similar to that. Now, it's not as polished as your course should be, right? But it should feel more like an experience, something that someone can follow. And basically like, I get it now, I have a holistic idea of what Alex showed up to share, uh, on, on this podcast with, with Shannon, right? And so that to me, those are kind of some of the key things that I think make a really good podcast episode.

Shannon 28:41

Absolutely. I agree. And you've just modeled something that I think that good guests do too, and it's the reciprocal buing of both people who are on the show. So I'm here to highlight you, to give you a platform for you to show your expertise and what you do, and potentially give people an opportunity to decide whether or not. They want to work with you or you know, whatever. Um, but you've also just paid it back and paid it forward by, you know, boosting me a little bit, mentioning a, an episode that you watched and that you found really valuable. And I found, I try to do the same thing when I'm guesting that we're both kind of supporting each other. Um, because you're on the show, you value that person as well. You value the host. And they value you. So it's nice when there's that reciprocity that happens and, and both people are kind of supporting each other. I think that's a, a great thing to do as well.

Alex Sanfilippo 29:34

Yeah, definitely.

Shannon 29:36

What can someone do to prepare, like, and I think this is when people are brand new. There's this desire to want to over prepare, um, because you're so nervous and you, you're afraid of what they're going to ask. And what if they ask a question that I don't know how to answer. Um, what do you suggest for someone who wants to prepare so that they sound natural, confident, but they don't sound scripted.

Alex Sanfilippo 30:00

Yeah, don't script is the first thing. It's like maybe the obvious answer. Um, now I, I say that today I wrote down those seven points that I shared.

Shannon 30:08

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 30:08

brand new. Like this is the first place I've articulated them and, and shared them. But I do think it's good not to script, especially if it's a bit of a, a more like, um, like a deeper podcast. And what I mean by that is one that's gonna get into like the emotion, the feelings of things. It's hard for you to get into that emotional state that you need to, to, to, to remember something. If you have it written down in front of you. It's more just like you're gonna read and it feels very. single dimension when you're

Shannon 30:32

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 30:32

Um, I found the best way to show up for a podcast is to be real, to be raw, and to be relevant, real, raw and relevant. Who are you? Really? Just share that rawly, make sure, uh, uh, in a raw way and make sure that it's relevant to that specific audience. Showing up in that way works really well. And so when you're prepping, don't, don't write down too much. Now, if there's a question that like the host always asks, and this is by the way, one of the pro moves of listening first, like if there's an ending question that always comes up, don't let it catch you off guard. Don't script your answer, but make sure that you write. I write it down. I'm like, Hey, I know this question's gonna be asked. I'm not gonna give my answer. I'll be somewhat mentally prepared though, because I'm gonna be like, Ooh, a question. Or, um, right. Like, I wanna show up and give a good answer. And

Shannon 31:11

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 31:11

when I do that, podcast hosts are like, man, you're the only person to ever answered that question so fast. I'm like, you have 400 episodes, what do you mean? And it's just 'cause people don't make it that far. They don't realize that's gonna be there.

Shannon 31:20

Right. Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 31:21

do think that just showing up the way you are really matters. Um, I, I'll share this, uh. I was on a podcast recently and I straight up did not know the answer to the question, and I think that he really wanted to riff on this. I did not know the answer, and I just paused for him. I was like, you know what? I was like, I, I really don't think I've thought through this enough to have any sort of answer. we just kept the conversation going and I kind of felt bad, right? And like at the end he goes, man, that was so good. He's like, I always try to stump people with questions. Everyone just bss their way through everything. He's like, you just owned it, that you don't know that topic. And,

Shannon 31:54

Wow.

Alex Sanfilippo 31:54

he, he like went on about it. He is like, dude, that was so good. And, uh, I was like, whew, this paid off. But the reality is it was something I, I didn't know about. And I don't wanna show up and pretend again to be somebody I'm not. just own who you are. Again, it's a conversation how often in conversations these things come up and you're like, oh, I didn't, no, I didn't know about that.

Shannon 32:11

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 32:11

the conversation like, oh, really? You didn't know? Well, here's what I know, and then you just keep the conversation flowing.

Shannon 32:16

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 32:16

I think that as long as you can show up being calm and understanding what you're getting into without, over preparing, over scripting, but also knowing what you're getting into,

Shannon 32:23

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 32:24

a weird balance, but I think that that's the best way to show up.

Shannon 32:27

Yeah, I love that. And what was that all about? Trying to stump the guests? Like, now we need to do a show about how, how not to try to stump your guests, but that's really interesting and yeah. Good for you. I've. I found myself in similar situations as well where maybe someone will ask me something that's like out of my wheelhouse or out of my area of expertise, and so yeah, I always try to couch it with like, well, that isn't my area of expertise. However, I can give you my opinion based on my experience with this and that. So not trying to be the expert of all things and you know, kind of. Just trying to fake your way through it. I think that there's a little bit of confidence that it requires to say, Hey, this is my area of expertise. That doesn't mean that I know everything under the sun. So yeah, that's really great.

Alex Sanfilippo 33:15

if I can on that real quick, that brings up like a, a, maybe a pro move here. Uh, and so if, if you're hearing this, like, don't feel like you need to do this from day one, but if you can learn how to keep a host. In order. Again, having that narrative flow by redirecting back to where it should be going in a respectful way. That's good to do. I actually just had a guest on my podcast do this to me last week.

Shannon 33:34

Oh wow.

Alex Sanfilippo 33:35

out of order of my questions totally my bad. And he is like, Hey. He's like, that's a, he. He, he did a really nice, he said, I'm like, Hey, that's a really good question because I answer that. Before I do that, lemme just give a quick. Overview. And in my head I'm like, oh, oops. Definitely should have started with that, right? Like, but it was a pro move to not, there was no confusion for the listeners. He was able

Shannon 33:51

Yeah,

Alex Sanfilippo 33:51

back on track For me, that's a pro move for a podcast guest to do,

Shannon 33:54

it is.

Alex Sanfilippo 33:55

ultimately that's what you wanna work toward. And so Shannon, thank you for bringing that up. That's, that's a, again, a pro move. A good point there.

Shannon 34:00

Well, and I would love for a guest to do that also because I do think that it is a partnership like we are working together here to produce a great show. Um, and so yeah, anytime like you as the expert realize that I've missed a step as the non-expert, I think it is your place to kind of step in and be like, well, there's a, there's a prequel to that. So yeah, that's awesome advice too. I wanna quickly talk about. Tech. Um, I wasn't initially planning it, but I'm sitting here looking at us both with our microphones in front of us, and I know that that's really a big concern for some people. And they think that they have to go out and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars in order to get equipment, or on the other hand don't even think about it at all and end up in a situation where they're not able to help the host, uh, produce a quality show. Uh, you don't have to name names or anything, but what is, um. What's your take on that? For somebody starting out, what's kind of the minimum that they would want to invest in?

Alex Sanfilippo 34:59

Yeah, this gives me a little bit of PTSD. Um, one time I was speaking at a big virtual event and the guy who was introducing me goes, this is Alex. He knows everything about podcasting tech, and I know

Shannon 35:07

Oh, no.

Alex Sanfilippo 35:08

about the technology side of podcasting. And he's like, yeah, ask Alex any question. I was just gone on stage. He was like, Hey, hey man. Uh, Andrew. I was like, Hey,

Shannon 35:14

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 35:14

I'm like. Uh, I, someone told me what to do, I was like, I don't know how to do any of this. Uh, and so what I'm gonna share today is gonna keep it really simple. That's why I just shared that little story to me. Again, all this stuff is overwhelming, but I am finding that podcast hosts are really interested in being involved in video these days. listen, I'm, I'm still audio first, but I do the video as well, so you want it to at least be presentable. They use it for sharing, they do it for graphics, they do it for short form video. They, they break it into pieces, and the better the quality, the more they can do with it. And so you, I listen, you don't need to spend thousands of dollars. I actually didn't do that. I decided to invest in my forever, Mike, so I do have a microphone that I would consider. Far more advanced than what most people would need. But what I'll share really quick here, take notes. All that you really need is some sort of high definition web webcam. Most of 'em are running 10 80 p or 4K these days, which just means it's got a really high frame rate. So like if you look at my picture, it's pretty clean, right? Uh, I have something that's USB. All this plugs directly into my laptop and his microphone, same thing. You want what's called a dynamic microphone. All that means there's a condenser microphone and dynamic. I'm not gonna get too techy here, but basically condenser. If I turn a condenser microphone right here, my neighbor, like five doors down right now is mowing his lawn. You would be able to hear him mowing his lawn and that is terrible. 'cause then you need a full studio dynamic microphone like I'm using Now if I step three feet away from this microphone and I start yelling, you can't hear me. It removes the need to have like a full on studio, and I've done some basic soundproofing. I have like a blackout curtain and I have like a, um, a comfort that hangs like hides behind my my door and I just open it up when I'm gonna record and that that's all I've got. And so, and it all plugs right into my laptop, so I'm not using it. I just unplug it. And then I'm good. I could be mobile. I have my laptop, and so it's just a high definition webcam, uh, USB and then a USB, uh, dynamic microphone. And really, you can be out the door these days for this type of thing for, for really good stuff for under $200. Like if you want top tier. And listen, I just suggest using one of the online apps that you, or websites that you buy stuff from, like Amazon's good. There's some that actually just do microphones and, and video equipment stuff. Anything like that, you can find something really great. that's all I suggest. You don't need much more other than that.

Shannon 37:24

I agree. I agree completely. And I actually made the mistake of having the wrong kind, like, not the dynamic, but the condenser when I first started and I got away with it. Um, but it is for those people who are, you know, which one do you need? And, uh, definitely go with the, the dynamic. But yeah, I agree with that. You, you don't have to go crazy. Um, just to get started. Okay, let's round this out. Now we are talking about podcast guesting as a way of increasing our visibility, our authority, borrowing somebody's audience so that we can get in front of people who we normally wouldn't get in front of. And the whole purpose is that we want them to hopefully be interested in working with us by our course, et cetera. We've talked about being a good guest and we don't want, as hosts, we don't want somebody who's gonna come on and it's just gonna be a pitch fest and, uh, you know, overly salesy. So how does somebody walk that line and how do you do it in the right way so that you are still benefiting from being on the show, but you're not coming across as, as being self-serving or pitchy.

Alex Sanfilippo 38:29

Lead with value. Like we've talked, we talked about during the pitch even that the whole thing is add as much value as you can. Leave it all on the table, share everything, every secret from your course, be willing to put it out there, right? And then the day what you're doing is you're building that know, like, and trust with somebody. And almost every podcast host toward the end of a conversation is gonna say, where can listeners find out more about you? Or where, where can listeners invest in what you're doing? Like some, some way they're gonna say this. And so it's the call to action that makes a difference. And again, if you just spent 30 to 45 minutes, whatever it is of your time building that know, like, and trust, now they're primed and ready to say. Man, I really like this, this, this person. Like, where can I, where can I find out more about them? Right? Or where can I, this stuff they're talking about, do they have a course on this, right? Like, people are gonna start asking that stuff and that is your chance. So during the whole conversation, the goal is to, to sell as little as possible. And then when you get to this last point, you're just giving them the next logical step. The call to act action is, is what I call that, that section of it. The CTA is the next logical step that someone would want to take when it comes to working with you. from you, finding out more about you. It's just that one step. And so to me, getting that right is, is what's key.

Shannon 39:35

Yeah. And so, uh, do you have tips for getting that right? Like, should we be looking at a small step? Is it a misstep to take a big, to ask for a big step? I've also heard that people talk about it needs to be something memorable because not everybody's gonna go to the show notes. Um, do you have any tips for what is a logical next step or, or what's the best for conversion, I guess?

Alex Sanfilippo 39:58

Yeah. One of the first times I was a guest on a podcast, there was a, I didn't know this. Um, it was my first time doing it was a guy who was on my show. He was a young guy. He was like 19. At the time of, of when we were recording this. And so he's like, dude, I got a pretty good audience. Wanna come on the show? And he was like, real bro, you know? And I was

Shannon 40:13

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 40:13

man, sure. And uh, I get on the show and he gets to the end and he is like, Hey man, so we can listeners find out more about you. I'm like, I've got Instagram, I've got this, I've got that. My website, you can email me, you can actually text me. I actually gave my phone number. You can

Shannon 40:25

Oh.

Alex Sanfilippo 40:26

And he's like, I did, I did all of it and I didn't think anything of it. Come to find out, 200,000 people listened to that episode the first day it came out.

Shannon 40:33

Oh my goodness.

Alex Sanfilippo 40:34

I'm getting emails. I'm still, to this day, it's one of the most reaches I've ever gotten through a podcast. And I

Shannon 40:39

kidding.

Alex Sanfilippo 40:40

at the, the text I got and I was like, I made a huge mistake. gave, I didn't, I probably didn't even give a business website at that point. I just gave everything, right?

Shannon 40:47

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 40:48

I say that because your call to action matters, and first and foremost, it needs to be singular. It has to be one thing. And sometimes host will push back. They want more, and it's like, Nope, everything can be found there. And to your point, Shannon, you want it to be memorable. Example, my name's Alex Sanfilippo. I never tell anyone to go to alex sanfilippo.com 'cause you can't pronounce it and you definitely can't spell it right.

Shannon 41:08

Two.

Alex Sanfilippo 41:08

not a good call to action. Be like Alex something, Sam san I, I can't remember. Right?

Shannon 41:13

Yep.

Alex Sanfilippo 41:13

that's never where I would send somebody, but I, I encourage you have that singular call to action, which should be a reflection of everything you talked about. It should be in addition to that, like you've been talking about golf for 45 minutes and then you wanna send 'em to a, uh, creative marketing course. out of alignment. So our, now the person's saying, oh man, what, why are we doing that? You know, like, I thought you're helping my golf swing today.

Shannon 41:33

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 41:34

that's what they're looking for. So you wanna make sure it's aligned and then simple, like easy to remember. And then the last thing is just, it, it be a step that's actually interesting to somebody. So when they land there, should be something that makes 'em feel like they want to stay there, right? That they wanna do something. An example, I've seen some people that have, um, courses and they've done like a short quiz. a five question quiz to auth like, to, to determine, hey, would this, would this course actually be good for you? And to me, that's a really good, like, that's a really good call to action if you just talked about your course for 45 minutes and then you're like, Hey, if you want it, if you're wondering if it might be right for you, that's your call to action, right? Go take this quiz. It'll ask you five questions to help determine if it's the right fit and if it's not, it'll give you some other ideas and resources you can implement. that right there. Anyone who hears that's gonna be like, oh yeah, I for sure wanna do that. And then it just has to be somewhere that they can go easily. 'cause to your point, Shannon, they're not, they might not look at the show notes, but if it's just something simple, they can find it pretty easily.

Shannon 42:29

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 42:30

this right takes a little bit of effort and trial and error for sure. But these are some of the best things I've done when it comes to making a good call to action.

Shannon 42:37

Yeah, I love that. Uh, that's such a great idea and something that people would want to follow up on, even if they don't remember it. They might remember like might, they might not remember the URL or the name, but they would be like, Hey, I wanna take that quiz and be more interested in actually going and looking it up. Okay. You have provided so much value here today. So many important tips. I know people are writing as fast as they can, um, and you've also done an amazing job of modeling how to be a good guest, so thank you so much for that. We're doing double duty here. Um, before we go to RCTA, do you have, what's the biggest and final tip that you would like to leave people for? So for somebody who is maybe a new. Uh, guest guesting for the first time or has maybe been guesting and realizing, wow, there's a lot I can do here to improve my game. Um, what's the biggest piece of advice you would like to leave people with today?

Alex Sanfilippo 43:33

Yeah, I'm actually opening up my, my journal. I, I journal every day and I wrote this down and it says, the idea of doing something is normally scarier than actually doing it. The idea of doing something is normally scarier than actually doing it. And I think

Shannon 43:46

So true.

Alex Sanfilippo 43:47

with podcast guesting. This sounds like a lot what we just shared, and it took us a long time to kind of break it down. But the reality is once you get into it, I think you're actually gonna have a lot of fun.

Shannon 43:56

Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo 43:56

that get into podcast guesting love it 'cause they

Shannon 43:59

Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo 43:59

it's just an extension of them sharing what they're already so passionate about. So my advice to you is don't let it scare you. Don't let that stop you. Get out there and give it a shot. Even if you feel like you're not quite prepared, not quite ready, that's okay. There's gonna be someone who says, that's good enough for me. I'll have you on, and I think their listeners are gonna end up really loving you.

Shannon 44:14

Yep. I love it. Such great advice for more than just podcast guesting, but business and life and courses and, and all the rest of it. It is so, so true. Um, thank you so much. If people want to learn more. About I, I think Pod Match is a good first step for them. Tell us a little bit more about Pod Match and how people can get involved and using that as in their process.

Alex Sanfilippo 44:39

Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, listen, I set up a page for this specifically. If you just go to pod match.com/free. It'll give you nine quick ideas. They're my nine favorite ideas when it comes to podcast guesting or being an aspiring podcast guest. Nine favorite things I've learned over the years to help me really figure out how to do a great job as a guest. And a lot of 'em we shared here, but I an extension of this as well. And again, that's pod match.com/free. It's gonna give you those nine ideas. I don't ask for your email address or anything like that. It's just an extension of how I can serve, uh, this audience. So Shannon, again, thank you and for the opportunity. It's been an honor to be here.

Shannon 45:11

Absolutely amazing and everyone you'll wanna go there for your first step, whether you are. Thinking about hosting or guesting for the first time, or you've been doing it for a while. Um, such a great resource podcast is a great way to get connected with other people who are interested in similar things to you. Uh, it's how I got started and uh, I highly recommend it. So Alex, thank you again for taking the time to be with us here today and uh, it's just been a pleasure.

Alex Sanfilippo 45:38

Yeah. Thank you. You're awesome, Shannon. I appreciate you.