Outside The Therapy Room

Episode 66 - The Human Side of Your Therapist with Ashley Mariani

• Ivonne Hammoud • Season 2 • Episode 66

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In this episode, we’re having an honest, behind-the-scenes conversation about the realities of this work — beyond what we were taught in grad school. From the pressure to be a “blank slate” to questioning old expectations like no self-disclosure or even having personal photos in your office, we explore how therapists have evolved over time and find their own voice in the room.

Ashley and I also talk about the emotional weight of the work — thinking about clients outside of sessions, not always knowing how they’re doing, and navigating the complexity of caring deeply while maintaining boundaries.

And for those in private practice, we get into the often-unspoken side of being both a therapist and a business owner — wearing multiple hats, managing a team, and holding the responsibility that comes with it.

Follow Ashley (The Rogue Therapist)

Ashley's Website

Follow us on social media:
@outisdethetherapyroompod

If you're looking for a therapist and live in Ontario, feel free to visit our website here or contact us at hello@newmooncounselling.com to work with one of our team members. If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search will help you find a therapist near you!

SPEAKER_00

We'll be chatting about everything from mental health and relationships to media and critical, as well as personal experiences and reflections, all in the hope of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone. This is outside the therapy room. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Outside the Therapy Room. Today we are outside the therapy room, but diving into the therapy room because we're going to be talking about kind of like trends we're seeing on social media about therapy and therapists. And Ashley is back so that we can talk about this together. Um, how are you doing? I'm wonderful. How are you doing? I'm good, thanks. I'm actually really excited about this um episode because I think we were just talking about it before we started recording, how there's so much uh noise, I'm gonna say, like on social media about what's appropriate and what's not appropriate for a therapist. And I think I see it, I mean, we both probably do, um, in our conversation with clients, and we're having to be, you know, maintain confidentiality. We were taught the certain things at school in terms of how we need to behave or be when we're in session that we're slowly unlearning. But there's just a lot of these things that are out now in social spaces, like Instagram, TikTok, and this trend that we were talking about. Um, can you explain what the trend was?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so I don't again, like I don't know the original source, but a lot of therapists have picked up from the original source and have mocked the original source, which is this content around how inappropriate it is for therapists to sip their water during session.

SPEAKER_00

That is so funny and ridiculous to me because it's water.

SPEAKER_04

Not only did do I sip water during session, I remember being so pregnant and so hungry and like apologizing for having to like chew on a cracker so that I didn't like throw up from nausea or something. Like, could you imagine being ridiculed being pregnant and just you know trying to be the best therapist you can be and sucking on a candy or something?

SPEAKER_00

It's so crazy. There was one time I was in a session and it was my last session of the day. I go back to back. So I don't really get a chance to eat unless I'm like, you know, stuffing a couple grapes or like, I don't know, whatever. Um, but most of the time that doesn't happen. And so my last session, my stomach growled so loudly that my client from the other other like other end of the room could hear me. And they were like, Do you want to go and grab something to eat? They were so understanding and so caring. Um, and so there's those amazing people out there that are supportive of you. But then there's so much of this, like, yeah, like what is that about? Why can't therapists have water? What does that have to do with somebody being professional and not professional? We're human. Yes. We're talking a lot or we're listening. Our throat might get dry, we might get a little tickle. Like, we need to drink some water. And hydration is just good for you in general. So I don't understand.

SPEAKER_04

I remember once I had a client fire me because he was in line behind me at the grocery store and saw what was in my grocery cart. And the conversation was, I just can't handle knowing what that my that my therapist has needs, like nutritional needs, and I can't handle to know what my therapist eats. This was like okay, 15 years ago, I want to say. And I was like, oh my god, look at my cart. That stuck with me for my entire career.

SPEAKER_00

Those things do stick with us again. Like what we're taught in school stuck with me for a long time of needing to be this blank slate. Like, don't use self-disclosure, don't show that you're a human outside of what you're doing. Um, no personal photos in the office, like just all professional photos. You have to maintain neutrality. Like things were so rigid. And that was through my MSW program, Masters of Social Work. And so that was heavy, like the first few years, I'm embarrassed to say, of like being out in the field, out in the profession. And I graduated from my master's um with my four-month-old kiddo. So I was like out of the field because then I was on maternity leave before I actually got like my first real therapist job after my maternity leave. And so I was remembering all of those things and then having to kind of perform in that way that felt really unauthentic to me. Um, like I'm I'm human, I'm silly, I'm very animated. Like, unfortunately, my face just tells it how it is. It shows every feeling. And so it was really hard to just kind of like have this blank slate um all the time. And same with like minimum minimal self-disclosure. I remember the uh like it was like probably early on in my career after school where I did self-disclose. This was a big deal back then, that I had a little kid at home. Yes. And like that's it. Just like, yep, I have I'm a mother. Like that was all. And I remember after that session left, feeling like, oh my God, was that appropriate for me to share? Is that like, did I break some rule? Like, I got so anxious about just sharing that I'm a mom outside of this. And obviously, now that's very different. Um, but I just want to hug that like young social worker yvon to be like it's like you didn't have to stress out so much about just self-disclosing that you're a mother and you have a child. But yeah, there were all of these crazy rules that we were taught at school.

SPEAKER_04

There there are. I think that they're still being taught to some degree, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Mm-hmm. They are. What were some of those rules that kind of stuck to you? That yeah, stuck with you, I guess.

SPEAKER_04

I think that the self-disclosure piece was a big one. Actually, just being able to go off of what you said, this idea of if somebody asks you if you're a mom, or if somebody asks you if you have kids, the script around it was that you were supposed to. Yeah, that you were supposed to say something along the lines of well, I'm not really sure how that pertains. Or can you ask me why that can you tell me why that's important for you to know that? Like of course it's important. Yeah. It doesn't mean that somebody without kids can't support you, but that level of like relationship building and alliance, creating that therapeutic alliance, it could make a huge difference to know that okay, this person sitting across from me understands it to a much deeper level. Like there's this unspoken understanding of like, oh, you're a parent. Oh, you've given birth, oh, you have a partner. Like those commonalities aren't going to make or break a therapeutic relationship, but they could make it a little bit stronger.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was always a script. Like, oh, are you married? And then it was like, well, why is that information important? Yeah, it was like such one, that's so awkward. Yes. Like they repl the reply back is awkward from what we were taught to reply back with.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And it probably doesn't feel so great for the client that's asking to be like, well, it was just an easy yes or no like answer, and now you're asking me to really think about why that's important to me. Like it's just so, I don't know, impersonal.

SPEAKER_04

Like, and it was before the age of like Instagram business marketing, I think. Where there are some people that are still very, and I think it really depends on the clientele you're working with. And I can see if our graduate program, because I took the same graduate program as you, but I can see if our graduate program was sending us all off into the world as um therapists working in psychiatric units, um working with highly volatile or dangerous populations. I can understand that. Like be very cautious of how much information you're providing, have really strong boundaries. Um, but once you get into private practice and you're working with populations that you feel pulled to, it's probably because you have a lot a lot of commonalities with the population you're working with.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Self-disclosure about diagnosis was also a big no-no. And now it helps to understand, right? Like, even if you read bios from our practice, like at New Moon, you see on there that some people, some of our therapists do disclose that they have ADHD, or that, you know, um they're they um have been diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. Like there's all of these different things, or even someone sharing their traumatic childhood, or how they had postpartum depression, when they had like those are important things now to know that actual clients look at sometimes because it is what you said before. It's more um like relational. There's um more of an understanding of like, oh, this person will see and understand what I'm going with because they know firsthand because they've gone through it too. So it's just so different. But did anyone ever tell you you can't have personal photos in your office?

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Really? Yes. Actually, not even just it was um told in when did you graduate your MSW?

SPEAKER_00

Um, when was my son born? Uh 20 2016.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so I graduated 2014. So you graduated two years after me. Um it was communicated in grad school and then my first non not-for-profit position where I was wearing many hats within this not-for-profit agency. Uh, I remember when I got pregnant, I was so excited, and my clients were excited for me. Like my clients were, you know, with me at some points, like when I first started, and then when I got married, and then when I got pregnant, and so they got to see this like progression and they became not invested in caring for me, but that that relationship got to build, which was really special.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I wasn't gonna bring my baby into the office and show off my baby, especially being on Mat Leave. Uh, but when I came back from Mat Leave, I did have pictures of my baby in my office, A, because I was a newly postpartum woman separated from my infant. And I wanted to be able to look at pictures and be reminded myself. I didn't want to sit in this sterile room with limited light, limited windows, and feel just like a number at a not-for-profit agency that's being burnt out and overworked. So the one thing that brought me joy was being able to look at pictures of my babies, only to be told by management that's not appropriate.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, from management. So from schooling, because me too, for schooling, it was yeah, don't do that. Don't bring pictures, don't show pictures. If they ask, answer in this very robotic kind of reply. But from management, too, you were told that was inappropriate.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, because it at this particular not-for-profit management was also um the person doing the person in the clinical managerial role was also a supervisor. So there was this like cross-contamination of boundaries, obviously. But this particular manager, um, because she was a therapist and came from the therapy world many, many, many moons ago, was very rigid with those those rules and boundaries. And so it was very strict to say like absolutely no pictures. And I remember like putting the picture down face down on my desk and just like crying my eyes out because it was the only thing that got me through the days was being able to look at my my little baby that was at daycare. Yeah. Um so yeah, I think that it it's it it translates outside of academia, not just living inside your own head rent-free, but even like if you are at a not-for-profit or if you're working for a practice where maybe the owner of the practice has some rigid rules that are pretty old school and outdated, they're gonna impact all the associates too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. We don't have photos at our office, but I don't think it's that it's not allowed. It's just we have a lot of shared office space. So if one person and that's not their families, like then whatever. But there's no rule around it. I feel like, and and I've had when I was at the not for profit, uh, that was like again, first big girl job um after big social work, I guess first time job. Um, and anyways, I ended up getting pregnant. And again, same thing. Clients were excited, they were happy, they were asking me how I was feeling, everything was great. Um, and then they um did ask. I had a couple of clients who were also moms who asked, like, oh, like, is it weird? Can I see a picture of like your kid? And I'm like, of course, here, like look at my phone. Like, this is my little guy, and then this one's gonna be coming whenever. And so there is, there is that for clients that ask me, I'm happy to share. Clients who don't ask me, I'm not just gonna randomly throw my baby's picture right in front of their face. But I think every, you know, as I'm sure you've experienced as well, every client is a different relationship, right? I have clients that I've seen since I started my private practice six years ago. So they've been with me from when I was solo to when I hired a couple of associates and moved offices to now, like to now being in the office I am. And then every time through a move, they've shown their care and excitement for me. And so the relationship is gonna look different than a brand new client that I just met. Again, not showing baby pictures of, I mean, not that my kids are babies anymore. Sad, but it is, it is a different kind of relationship that you have with your clients.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, agreed 100%.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, that is so crazy. And I think it's the same. We we're seeing a lot on TikTok now, too, of like a therapist being like, You want to show me your pictures? Like, give them to me. Like, I want to know what your partner looks like. We've been talking about him for a year, but I can't put the picture in my head. So um, therapists also may be feeling a little awkward about asking for a photo unless it's actually being offered. Like, do you want to see a picture of my wedding or whatever it could be? Um, but we've been with our clients through that as well, right? Like we I want to see, I want to see the pictures.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And it, I mean, when there's multiple characters in a client's life, and it really does help to be able to put faces to names when you're talking about people, right? And um back in the day when we used to do these intense genograms for every single client. Yeah, those were intense. And to think like remembering back to being told how they had to be done so perfectly and being graded on the genogram projects. Like, I don't think I've done a genogram in over a decade.

SPEAKER_00

Me neither. But I can tell you who client A's like second aunt and like their partner who they're not together. I can tell you what their name is, but I didn't need a genogram. But you're right. We we're those circles and those squares had to be so perfect.

SPEAKER_04

Like, I rem I think I received marks off for not using a ruler at one point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, like for what purpose? I know some people use genograms now. No, like you know, no, good for you, good for you. Yeah. It's uh, but at the time, like, yes, it was so needed to be precise and so specific.

SPEAKER_04

So even note-taking too. Like, do you remember first year in your MSW? There's that the um oh, I can't remember what which what it was called, but it was it was our projects were you had to watch a movie because nobody had clientele at that point, right? Like your first year in your MSW program, some of us did. Um, but you had to take a case study and you had to break down and do uh an assessment in the proper formation of an assessment. And this is like a multi-page document. Yeah. And now with technology and now with um being able to curate the amount of clients you see in a day, we don't need to do multi-page assessments. And again, like at hospitals, at psychiatric um facilities, like maybe for sure that's the case. Yeah. Yeah, especially not in private practice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I remember doing my assignment on um everybody loves Raymond and that family. And I had to do the genogram, and I had to do, I think it was Deborah who was my client the way.

SPEAKER_04

Good one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it was intense, it was like a few pages.

SPEAKER_04

Mine was, I don't remember who I did it on, but the movie I picked was Easy A. Oh, yeah. Do you remember that movie? Yeah, good movie with Emma Stone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know. I think it was her that was my my client, my client in the thing. But yeah, that was the movie I picked.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's awesome. I love how we remember the movie, but we don't remember all of the things that were needed in in that crazy case now. Yeah, of course not. I think though we're what we're coming to now is kind of like finding our own style. And I think that has been liberating for me to kind of figure it out. But sometimes it's a little hard when you go right from such like rigidity in school to then step out of that and then try to find your own style because you're so stuck in this, like, you know, you have to do this, you have to, you know, be in this box and be this person, no facial expression, keep very neutral about things. And that's just, I mean, for some people, maybe that's possible and they're able to do that. That's not how that I can't be like that. That's just so inauthentic to who I am. Um, but yeah, what was it like for you to feel? I guess like when did you start feeling comfortable practicing in a way that felt more authentic to you?

SPEAKER_04

Well, the piece that I I also remember from grad school was that the expectation was that you don't niche. Do not niche. You see everyone, you support everyone. And so then it becomes much harder when you're deciding how you are gonna be as a therapist because depending on who I'm working with, different curated parts of me are gonna be showing up. Um, and I will say there has to be a correlation between people who enter this work, and I know you've uh you and Alita have done some episodes on um people pleasing. So this idea that therapists are probably probably sway more towards this like people pleasing, perfectionistic, afraid to be in trouble, afraid to do things wrong. Um and so finding your own way because there is not um a there is there's nobody mentoring this concept of like finding what kind of therapist you are, yeah, feels very rebellious. It feels like, okay, by by narrowing down how I show up in the therapy space, but by also narrow narrowing down my niche, which isn't such a thing anymore, but it was in 2000 you know, twelve to fourteen, um I'm doing something wrong. The college is gonna come after me. And I think having that that idea of like, I'm I'm so terrified of being in trouble ever and I'm even in in the the uh supervision sessions that I'm doing with people that I'm supervising right now, that often comes up as like, will the college come after me? Will the college come after me? Will the college come after me? And that is not yet, yes. Do I think that there are ethics that we need to work within? Of course. But that stronghold is really preventing people from owning their space and doing the work that is authentic to them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I I I stepped into my my um own way of practicing when I started my own practice, and even still I started with focusing just on the perinatal population. And then I realized that I was missing something. And the thing that I was missing was integrating my entire undergrad training, which was the sexuality, marriage, and the family piece, right? And so I wanted so hard to try to bring those two and bridge them together, which is how I got into the postpartum sex and intimacy dynamic. Yeah. But there was still something missing. And that's when I did my um, I don't even know how long it's been, but when I did my rebrand, so to speak, not necessarily rebrand of my clinic, but the rebrand of who I am as a therapist. And the the rogue piece is is to identify that like I probably don't do things like other people do them, like other therapists do them. There, there is the therapists that leave academia and they feel very comfortable following the rules and they feel very comfortable doing the things. And again, all the power to them if that's where they feel comfortable in a very predictable place, that's fine. That's just not who I am. And so the way that I operate means that I might ask questions, I might probe in ways, I might find threads and and run with those threads that other therapists don't feel comfortable doing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I want to say you're staying within the rules, right? Like our big, like general ethics, but it's just a different, we're not being robots. I think is more when we kind of align more to ourselves. And and I would say my experience was similar that the first maybe few months, I mean, I opened up my practice and then in October of 2019, and then by March, it was COVID. Things were locked down. It was like, bam, now you have this thing to deal with. But at that time, I think it was actually, let's just say, like within like six months to a year, where I really started to kind of understand the kind of therapist I wanted to be and kind of started shedding this, you know, version of myself that I was being for like, you know, academia and like kind of what was taught and the messaging that we received from there. Um, and that was big. And I think one situation that kind of came from that because we are scared of the college. I like, you know, let's they could take away our whole jobs and then we what do we do with ourselves? And so there is this fear, and you know, it should it be there? Maybe. I think, you know, we get those uh newsletters of all of the people that are maybe, you know, being reviewed or reprimanded because of them stepping over this boundary. So that looks into, you know, um having sex with a client or you know, things developing into relationships outside of the therapy session.

SPEAKER_04

Having sex, the number one things that are on that tribunal page, therapists having sex with clients, therapists doing drugs with clients, and therapists selling drugs to clients. Those are the top complaints on that page. And so when I have a supervisee who is like trembling in their boots, afraid of the college, and I'm like, are you gonna sell drugs to your client? No. Are you gonna do drugs with your client? No, are you gonna have sex with your client? No, okay, let's just take a breath because everything else is figure outable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, we're we see it so much on media therapists having sex with their clients. It's been on so many different shows. It's not okay. We're just gonna go and say that. But coming back to like, you know, I was very scared of the college. And the first year, I remember a client emailed me and then said, see you later, friend. And I was like, oh my God, they think I'm their friend. Like that is so inappropriate. I need to like set this boundary right now. And I emailed them and was like, hey, just to let you know, you know, like I'm your therapist first, but I'm looking forward to seeing you at the appointment. Now I think back and I'm like, if I client, I'd be like, okay, cool, I'll see ya. Like now.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But like back then, and like, you know, that client's still with me. Everything is still good, but there was a time when like that impacted them. It freaked me out. It they didn't like it because they didn't mean anything by it. And then I was kind of calling them out on that. There was a rupture that happened in our relationship because of that, that was able to get repaired. And now I get teased about it continuously. So that's the kind of like, you know, playfulness that exists in our session. But that was a big fear of like, I don't want to kind of overstep that boundary. I don't want to do that. And I think after repairing that relationship and then, you know, really trying to reflect on, okay, wait a second, like, is it really the end of the world if a client refers to me as a friend as long as they know the boundaries? No, that's okay. I understand why they might want to label me as a friend. There's a lot of intimacy that happens in the therapy room that can, you know, make somebody feel like they are friends. We've also seen, and I think I reshared or I did a post like this, but you know, a therapist crying on the couch, like pretend crying on the couch because they wish they could be friends with their clients. I have some amazingly cool clients that I'm like, oh frick, like I wish we could be friends. Like it would be so easy. Um, and like you were my person or like my people kind of thing. But no, we have to maintain that boundary because it's to keep our clients safe at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_04

But yeah, there's so many we have rules around timelines too, right? Like it's not forever and ever, amen. Like you never can never have this person in your personal life until the day you die. That's not the rules. The rule is what a year, two years.

SPEAKER_00

I thought it was five. Okay, maybe five for a relation, romantic relationship. I heard five for romantic, I think. Yeah, that would be don't quote us on that, but like of not seeing the client. You can't be like, oh, it's been five years of us of working together, like woo, we can start a relationship. It's like no, no, no, not seeing them at all. Yes. But you're right, there are these rules. And I think that, you know, moving into our next topic, there's confidentiality around seeing a client outside of the therapy room that we need to adhere to to protect our clients. We never want to approach a client when they're with somebody and be like, hey, a great session yesterday. You know, you did real good work. Who is this person? Like, you don't want to kind of out your client for being in therapy. And we also don't know the safety that they feel. But some clients feel really offended if they see you out in public and you don't approach them. And so, what's kind of your view or experience with that?

SPEAKER_04

I make a point to highlight that dynamic, especially with my local clients. So, because I work virtually, I can get I can get clients from all over Ontario. So I don't risk seeing some of them anytime ever. Um, but there are clients that will have a first session and I'll say, Oh, where are you located? And they'll say, Oh, you know, Fergus. And I'll be like, Okay. So I'm also in Fergus, which makes it wonderful if you would like to do a walk and talk or if you would like to come to my home office and have a session. Beautiful. That's wonderful. And I'm just giving you the heads up in advance that if we do see each other out in public, I won't be the one to acknowledge you first. But if you do acknowledge me, I would be happy to give you some kind of warm feedback that I see you and it's all within your comfort. So you're running the show. And they're always like, oh yeah, like everybody that I know knows that I'm in therapy and they know that I have a therapist and blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, okay, well, that's still a hundred percent your control. Yeah. And obviously, again, we're human. So sometimes when we're out in public, I've there have been many times where I've been grocery shopping with my kids. I'm distracted and I look up and there's a familiar face, and I can't place the person's face. They're smiling at me, I'm smiling at them. Hey, hey, and that's just it. And then I have to, I'm like going through the aisles being like, where do I know this person from? Why can't I place this person? And then it hits me like two days later. Oh, they're a client. And so again, like we're only human. We can't expect ourselves to do a hundred percent perfection all the time. Should I have smiled at that particular person at that time? Maybe not. Would I get a slap on the wrist? Probably. But again, a smile-to-smile human interaction is not me going up and saying, How was your therapy session last week? What's new? You told me about your boss. Did he, you know, lose it on you when you didn't show up for work that day? Like that's not what's happening. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That just made me laugh. Because yeah, I've had clients who've said, like, I've said same same spiel. It's on you. If you want to say hello, I will gladly say hello back. Um, but I'm not gonna approach you. And there's been some clients that have said, okay, cool. And we've run into each other somewhere around town, and it they do one of these, like look at you and then like look away. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like they're not comfortable with that, totally fine. Don't take offense to it. And I just kind of like try to get out of the store or whatever if I need to, just so that they don't feel uncomfortable of my presence. And there's others that are like, oh my God, Ivan, and they're like yelling at me from and I'm with my kids or whatever. And I'll be like, oh yeah, this is, you know, they'll say hi to the kids. And if the kids after ask it, it'll, it's just like, oh, somebody from work, whatever. But um, but yeah, it's we we're gonna take the client's lead. And I think that that's really important to know. And also something for clients to recognize that if you've been seeing a therapist for years and years, and at first you said, I don't want you to even look at me if I'm out in public, but somewhere within those two years you change your mind, communicate that because your clients, your therapist is still gonna go by what you said the very first time they saw you in a session because they want to respect your confidentiality, your comfort, all of those things. Um, but yeah, it's it's fun when a client says hello to you, you know, out in public. A smile, I smile to random strangers just because I'm just like, hey, nice, nice to see you, whatever. Um, so like the smiling thing is all is also like fine, but you don't need to go out of your way to say hello to your therapist if you're not comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_04

I the the dreaded piece, I again, like with the college looming, I think if I were to give my early self, early therapist self some, you know, pointers around the college, it would be just because there is communication from the college about a certain situation doesn't mean you're automatically in the wrong. It doesn't mean that. What it means is that they just want to hear what you have to say about it. And they could have somebody on the other side that is projecting, that is disgruntled, that is having, you know, some misunderstanding about what your role as therapist is. They could be rejected, they could feel hurt, they could feel misunderstood. You never know what's happening. Um, and so it's just showing up with the most integrity as possible and knowing that if you're clear, if you've communicated uh directly, if you have um, you know, the paperwork and documentation to show and demonstrate that you've done things professionally, that's great. And there is still some wiggle room. There's lots of gray areas with the college still. If you live in a very, very small town with very small resources or very little resources available, then the college isn't gonna be angry if you are at the same yoga class as your client is.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Or if your client coaches your kids' baseball team. Might be a little awkward, but it's not, yeah, you're not gonna get represented.

SPEAKER_04

They just want to know as the therapist, have you discussed this? Yeah, you're not sweeping it under the rug. What have the two of you discussed about it? How do you each feel comfortable moving forward? That's all they want to know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's to protect the client here, right? It's to protect their safety. So I think that that's important for clients to understand too, and and therapists that college is here to protect. There's rules in place around confidentiality to protect you. Um, but that's seeing clients outside in the real world. But do you ever think about clients, even if you don't see them out in the real world, do you ever think about them like in between sessions or all the time.

SPEAKER_04

All the time. Me too. All the time. Even like a reel will pop up, and I'll it will be so relevant to that client. And I'll be like, I'm just gonna email it to them. And so I'll preface it by saying, like, I just want to let you know that this could be a very validating resource for you, and I'll send it to them. And they're 99.9% of the time, they are so grateful because they're like, oh my gosh, you were like you remembered or you thought about me, or this is so thoughtful. And I'm like, yeah, yes, because I think I see my clients more in a day than I see my own family most times. So I'm invested. This is my career. I the thing about private practice is that I chose to do this. I could have stayed at a hospital, I could have stayed at a high school, I could stay at a not-for-profit, but I chose to say I'm going out on my own and building a business, and I'm gonna work with the people that light me up, the people that challenge me, the people that make this work worth it. And so I'm showing up every day because I want to be here. Can I feel tired? Can I feel, you know, a little bit hopeless sometimes? Can I have imposter syndrome and still love my work?

SPEAKER_00

Of course. 100%. Same. You said it perfectly there. We're gonna talk about being a therapist and practice owner in the next little bit, but 100% what you said, you can absolutely love everything that you do and still have hard moments, still have burnout, all of those things. I do think client, I do think about clients in between sessions or even after they've gone, if they've like ghosted me or whatever it could be. I'm always thinking about my clients and wondering how they are. I made a uh post about it on um our practice um Instagram. And, you know, I've had I know dates, right? I have a client, I see them one week and they're getting married the month after, and I know the date. And on that date, I'm like, oh my God, the weather's nice. They're gonna have such a nice outdoor wedding today. I hope it all goes well. I hope the mom doesn't make like an annoying speech like we talked about. I hope like the bride or my client was able to kind of set some of those boundaries with family so that she's able to enjoy the day or whatever it could be, or you know, seeing a client before their due date. And that's kind of like their last session before they go into maybe like being a first-time mom or having, you know, their second, third babe. And it's just like, ah, did it happen? Is the baby here? Like, you know, today's the due date. Hopefully, you know, she's doing well or whatever. But even just during hard conversations, like I've had clients be like, I'm gonna have that hard conversation about my friend or with my friend about whatever it could be this weekend, and I'm wishing him well, like energy-wise. I'm like, oh, today's the day. Hopefully, like that friend responds well to his request or whatever it could be. But there is a lot of that thinking about clients in session and just like sending them well wishes, like trying to like send it through the universe. But it's hard not to, because like you said, we're invested. Yep, we care genuinely care about our clients. And there's so again, social media, so many people say, like, but I'm like, you're I'm paying you to care. And I freaking hate that comment because I'm like, maybe you are. You're paying me for my time, but you're not paying me to care. I genuinely care about you. And I think that's where my facial expressions come in because I care about you. So you're saying that a, you know, a girl, a coworker, made a really shitty comment about something, an award or something that was really good for you. I don't like her. She's on, she's on my list. Like, yes, give me your address. Her house is gonna get egged. Like, you know, like not actually, please do not. Not actually, yeah. Not actually, do not call the call metaphorically, metaphorically, but it is it's like a genuine care. Like, what do you mean she said that to you? That's so rude, so disrespectful. And I don't like that she said that to you. There is like a defensiveness we can sometimes feel for our client.

SPEAKER_04

And sometimes we're the only people that can go out of our way and hide, not even go out of our way, but like stop a client in a moment and say, Listen to me. The things that I see as strengths in you are this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Yeah. And this person may have never heard that once in their life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And we're not lying. We're we're able to see it from like a humanistic lens, but we're also able to see it from like the lens of assessment. Right. Like these are your strengths. I can sit here as a professional and say that these are your strengths, but I can sit here as a human and say, I also see these amazing things about you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And that's what it ends up turning into, right? First facial responses, she said what? Like, what do you mean? That's so mean. And then it's, well, you have these strengths. You have had move, you have moved up in the business a lot more quicker than maybe this person has. How do you think that's impacting her? Her comment maybe wasn't okay, whatever, you know, like then all the therapy stuff comes in. But it is, yeah, it's a genuine care 100%. And even clients who, again, cancel an appointment and then never return again. I'm still hoping that they're all good. And sometimes it gets a little scary when maybe they're not doing so great and then they don't contact you again. Um, and then you're just hoping that they're that they're okay, that they're still around, that you know, all those things. And it's hard for us because we we won't ever know um unless that client decides to contact us again, give us an update, or books another appointment or whatever it is. And that that's the that's the shitty part.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and that you that rarely happens. Like you rarely hear, and I will get new clients and you know, part of their intake form is saying, like asking them the question, have you been in therapy before? And so we talk a little bit about that in their first session, like what really worked in your last therapy sessions, what was some highlights, what who are some of the not who, but like what what styles of therapy, what personalities in your therapist really worked for you. And it kind of gives me an idea of what challenges this person, what keeps them in like that regulated safe space. But I'm always careful when somebody comes to therapy and says, My last therapist was horrible, they did this, they said this. It's hard because we can feel a lot of things. And I would never invalidate a client with their previous therapeutic experience ever.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But it is really hard because we never know if people are walking away from our therapy sessions and that's the feedback they're giving their next therapist about us. And for some people, it really is I was really vulnerable and I I'm not comfortable being vulnerable, and now I have a vulnerability hangover. And so I'm going to distance myself or practice an avoidance from that therapist because I've never been that vulnerable. I've never told a therapist or any person that much information about me, and now I'm retreating. So what I I'm very careful to walk this fine line between thank you for telling me your experience, and I'm sorry that that happened to you, and that feels very hard. And in my head, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna vilify this therapist right off the hop. Of course. Like I I can't say that I haven't been that therapist to somebody too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And again, like the it what works for one person may not be what it what works for the next person. Um, and that's just something that we end up learning and something that is kind of on the client too, to communicate those things. And those things happen. That's again a Ruptures if the client is comfortable enough to be like, yeah, I've been avoiding seeing you because like I feel super, you know, embarrassed or whatever because of all of this vulnerability that came out in the last session. Cool, let's talk about it. Like, you don't need to run away. Like, let's figure it out. And if you don't want to really go into it and dissect it all in the next session, we don't have to. Um, the client really does take the lead in sessions, and so we go by what they're comfortable with. Um what do you think is an emotional part of the job that maybe people don't know or don't talk about enough?

SPEAKER_01

An em well, I mean, the the counter transference piece is emotional.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Can you explain what that is for listeners?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, first of all, I can say it's like the the academic world will put a big X on any kind of counter-transference. I remember I sat in a class that was like, if at any point there is counter-transference, you need to inform your client and refer out. I'm like, why the why would I inform my client, first of all? Yeah. So that they can carry that? Absolutely not. Second of all, why isn't this an opportunity for growth? So transference is when the client is sitting with you as their therapist and there's stuff coming up for them around who you are and their and how you are represented to them, feelings that they might have about you, um, memories about people from their past, maybe that even are reflected in you. They they have stuff come up because of who you are and your experiences or or what you look like, even. Um we talk about transference when clients have attraction towards their therapist. Counter-transference is the opposite. When the therapist has stuff come up, it's for them when they're sitting across from the client, which we're human. That's gonna happen. Especially when you're working in a niche that you chose because you have life experience in that niche. If you are sitting with new moms who have been through um obstetric violence, let's say, and you yourself have been through obstetric violence, there is gonna be counter-transference moments. And the difference between the ethical and non-ethical interaction is what are you doing about that? What support are you seeking outside of session and surrounding that? When do you know when you can't show up? I don't even want to say in a non-biased way, because again, like biasness is part of the reason why clients seek me out, right? If I if I have a stance against obstetric violence, I guess that's considered a vi a bias. So people are gonna be seeing me because of that particular bias. And so it's in this circumstance, in this example, it's not really even about not having a bias, but like, are you checking yourself? Are you showing up in a regulated way? Can you offer safety to that client? Who is your who are your people? Who is your supervisor? Where are you getting the support on that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. That's one that, yeah, it at school, you're 100% right. It was you have to refer out. And I think nowadays, and something I talk to my to my students about is just what you said. Okay, look at that. Maybe that means you need to do something for yourself before after session so that you're able to be present with the client. But somebody can still do their job and do it well, even when they're feeling, you know, maybe a little dysregulated because or, you know, feeling that counter transference. Um, they can still be there and hold space for the client. Um, yeah, but yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_04

I think the those early years of initiation into the field of working for like the hospitals, the schools, the not-for-profits, those are the environments that you really learn, you have to sit with that. You have there, there's no running from that because you don't get to decide who your clients are. You don't get to niche down when you're working in those environments. And so for me, when I was working, uh, when I was running the PAR program, the partner assault response program, all of these offenders were coming in, all of these men that had committed um violent acts towards women. And I had to sit there and I had to sit sometimes for two to three hours with these individuals going through their legal paperwork, having them become very disgruntled in front of me, blaming me for why they were in the program to begin with. And so very quickly, I knew that there was no avoiding this. There was no avoiding this countertransference. It was you sit with it, you learn how to take care of yourself before work, after work, you learn how to take breaks, you learn how to set boundaries, you learn about your own body language and your own micro expressions and how that gets communicated to the person sitting across from you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And then you do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you integrate it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think another one, like of the emotional parts that people don't talk about enough, is kind of similar to that, maybe like um like healthy or positive self-disclosure. I think self-disclosure can be really helpful when it's done appropriately. So when the focus is on the client, when maybe we're self-disclosing something to either build relationships, like what you mentioned, I'm a mom, I have, you know, two kiddos at home, whatever. Um, other times it can be to normalize a situation that that client feels a lot of shame about. And so if they're like, you know, I don't know. Um I can't think of an example right now.

SPEAKER_01

I went brain dead for a sec.

SPEAKER_00

Any example of like a mom losing her shit is pretty much Yeah, like if they're feeling a lot of guilt, if the client's feeling a lot of guilt for yelling at their kid, you know, while they were making dinner and the TV was on and there was noises everywhere, then a self-disclosure may be like, I've been there too. You know? That was me last night. Yeah, exactly. Like any kind of comment to just kind of normalize and validate that experience to them. We're not sharing anything, you know, huge detail about what exactly happened in that experience. But we're just saying that, yeah, we've we've been in that place before. We know how that feels, we know how overstimulated they must have been in that moment. And that doesn't make them a bad mom or a bad person to have yelled at their kiddo in that moment, right? And then we talk about tools and all those things. But yeah, I think self-disclosure can be something when used appropriately that can be really helpful in session. When it's inappropriate is when the the session then shifts and the client is having to take care of the therapist.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

And that's not good. Um, and then also when like inappropriate things are being said in session, um, that again take the focus out of what the client was just saying. Um, so those are again red flags to look out for. But I think, yeah, it can be really helpful and just validating for that client. Yeah. Um so you touched on something being a therapist and a practice owner. We're wearing all of the hats. We are the therapists, we're owners of the business. We might be, you know, managing other people in some capacity. We're HR, we're marketing. Oh, wreck marketing, like doing all the social media posts, we're the accountants, we're, you know, balance balancing client care, but also making business decisions. Um, we're supporting a team. Like it, there's all of these things happening. And I really appreciated what you said about loving what you do and having some really, really tough days or stressful days. Um, and now there's a lot of, you know, amazing uh therapist, business owner, influencers online that are communicating the reality of it and creating a space of validation and normalization for us business owners who are watching this and we're like, ooh, okay, that's not too bad. Like other people feel this way. What has that experience been like for you to wear all these hats?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, um, overwhelming and wonderful at the same time. I think my personality just wouldn't do well. I I don't thrive in an environment where somebody's telling me what to do. So I really have to decide where are my strengths best used. And it's within building my own practice to the speed to at the speed to which I feel comfortable with the vision that I have, which can feel very isolating and lonely, right? Because no one has the vision of your business the way you do. And so you can join all these containers of business owners trying to level up their business, but the majority of them are not going to be therapists. And so there's gonna be this missing piece to those containers where the person informing you doesn't understand the niche of therapy, doesn't understand the red tape, doesn't understand that the relationship that you have with your client doesn't allow you to follow step seven, eight, nine in their protocol. So I think the isolating piece is really hard, which is actually why I show up at the womb a couple of times a month, just to kind of feel like I have there's people, there's other practitioners. This is a building I can drive to. I can get my groceries after. It's beautiful. Um it I mean, for me, like it also serves the clients that want to come in person and can't do that in Fergus. So a lot of a lot of feelings, I think. Um as a woman to as a woman who's a mother, being the default parent, being, you know, the person that ultimately carries most of the mental load in the home and then carrying the mental load in a business, that can that can feel like a lot. So when I have a a long list of to-do that includes emailing clients, um, networking with certain professionals, it could it could be a whole year before I get to some of those things. And I just have to be acceptable, acceptable, accept that and know that the work that I'm need to prioritize is the showing up with my clients and doing that work. That's the most important work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But you touched on something there. And I think for, you know, speaking for myself and maybe for other, you know, mothers who are also business owners and trying to juggle everything, there's a lot of guild that can come with that. Like I'll be replying to an email right at dinner time, like because it's about a client's session with another team member that evening. So there is a sense of urgency to need to reply, or I'm in the flow of editing a social media post or whatever it could be. And my kiddos running to me asking if I could play. And I'm like, buddy, yes, just give me like 30 seconds. And then it takes more than 30 seconds, and I feel like so terrible for not being able to kind of be present with my kiddo in that moment. But it is about juggling all these things that sometimes aren't really understood. And I think that's the isolation that you talked about. I also remember when I first started like, you know, hiring marketing and getting an accountant and having to like educate them. Like, we can't ask our clients to Google review. Sorry, like I can't have that on my website to like leave a Google review. We can't do that. And so we're having to tell our marketing team and like kind of again re-educate some other professionals that are supporting our business to what it means, like our business there is red tape that we can't cross. Um, and same with like accounting and things like that. And that's why it's important to kind of, you know, connect with people, other professionals who are supporting your business who understand the field a little bit. Um, but yeah, there's a lot. And some of sometimes these things also impact us emotionally, right? If I had a really, really, you know, difficult client experience that I sat with and I was, it was a work from home day, and I'm like leaving my in-home office and the kids are now running up to me. I might be like, oh, that was so heavy, and I'm holding so much for that client, especially if that client is telling me something that happened to them when they were the age of my kiddos. Has that happened to you? Where and then suddenly you're like getting emotional because you're just imagining that client in your kid and that happening. And it's just like, oh, I need to like take a breather. I want to hug you and squeeze, like squish you and do all of those things. I just need like five minutes. I need to go have a little cry, or I need to just like regulate so I can come back into mom mode because therapist Yvonne just went through it. And so it it is about like, you know, doing dealing with all of these different parts of our lives, our mother part, business owner part, therapist part, all of these team member part, like all of these things that can be a lot but amazing at the same time.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yeah, I think the decompression piece, especially working from home, is a huge one. Yeah. Night clients are the hardest. Like, I love working when the house is quiet and I'm in my office and I can see my clients, but the night clients of, okay, we just ended a session at nine o'clock. Now I have to go upstairs and like lie in bed. And either doom scroll on my phone till way too late, or just like lie there and process the entire session while my husband is like snoring next to me. And I'm like, I can't sleep. I can't sleep. I can't sleep. I can't sleep. So having to take your own advice and practice your own like, what do you need to do before you come up? Are you on your phone? Get off your damn phone. It's the phone, man.

SPEAKER_00

It's the phone, no matter what. I hate phones. I'm I'm like, no phones at the dinner table, and then I'm the first one to pick it up. I'm like for like it's for work. I'm not just like scrolling Instagram for fun. It's I have to reply to this until that happens. Yeah. But uh, but this again goes to those comments of like you're paid paid to care. Um, that can again be so frustrating. You just spoke on on how much we care and how much we kind of can bring home with us, right? Yeah, we are, and I think that's the message for today. We are human. Um, yeah, there's amazing things that happen and things that are a little bit more challenging. And this we could have a part two on this because there's still so much we could tackle. But is there any last thoughts that you want to kind of leave with our listeners about this?

SPEAKER_04

I I really just want everyone to know that your therapist is hopefully doing their best to show up for you every single time you have a session with them. They truly, if they are a human and have a heart, they do care about you. They truly do. And it's okay to decide that a therapeutic relationship isn't appropriate for the chapter of life that you're moving into. It's totally okay to outgrow a therapist for the chapter of life that you're in. 100%. We would love to have that information before you just don't ever book again, of course.

SPEAKER_00

But that's because we care.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Selfishly, please tell us you're leaving. And we will happily let you go. Yes. But it's just the not knowing, I think, is hard to sit with.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And we are we are human. I I think it reflects on the piece that we often say with um you know, adult children and maybe even like emotionally immature parents, where this obviously is not what we're talking about, but this concept of just bring me the thing, bring it to me. If I've made a mistake, if you if I have done you wrong in whatever way, come talk to me about it. And we can repair this in one way or another, we can repair this. Like we if if I don't have the ability to hold space for teaching you how uncomfortable conversations can look or happen and be uncomfortable but still be safe, then I shouldn't be doing this work. So no matter how hard the conversation is, I still want you to come to me so that I can hold space for you. If I've done something to upset you, if you are leaving, just come chat with me about it and let me show you one last time that human to human, like I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. No, that was perfectly sad. Um, yeah. So just remember therapist is human. People know where to find you. You are a regular now on the podcast, but I'll have all of your links in our show notes um in case people want to get a hold of Ashley. But thank you so much. Like I said, this could be a part two because there's just so much out there.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sure people have questions that they would like to ask therapists.

SPEAKER_00

Therapists, yeah. That's a great idea. I mean, we're closing up for season two, but that's a great idea for season three. If you have any questions that you wish you could ask your therapist and you can't, you can ask us and we will gladly answer those for you. Um, thanks again so much, Ashley, for being here.

SPEAKER_04

Congratulations on the end of season two.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. We have a couple more episodes to go, but it is very exciting. Um, and you'll be back in season three. Like I said, you're like, you're always coming back. Throw me in when you need it. We're good. We'll have a follow. All right, everyone, make sure to follow us on Outside the Therapy Room Pod and we will see you next week. Bye. Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room. This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only. If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes. If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.