Growth Drivers
Mike & Rachael Novak run the #1 real estate team in Everrett, WA. They mentor hundreds of agents & have sold 1,000+ homes in their career.
Join Mike & Rachael as they discuss how to drive GROWTH in business, relationships, fitness & more 📈
Growth Drivers
How to close more real estate deals in 2025
Most real estate agents are leaving deals—and thousands of dollars—on the table.
In this episode of Growth Drivers, Mike and Rachael Novak break down the real reason agents struggle to close more deals (and it’s not what you think).
If you want 2025 to be your biggest year yet, you have to master the real skills that drive closings:
→ Setting better appointments
→ Having real conversations (not reading scripts)
→ Handling brush-offs and objections without getting flustered
→ Building trust fast — even with cold leads
→ And confidently closing without sounding pushy
We’re sharing the exact frameworks we coach our team and clients on daily—the same ones responsible for hundreds of closed deals a year.
✅ How to build real phone skills (even if you hate cold calling)
✅ The 4-part conversation framework that actually converts
✅ Why rejection isn’t personal—and how to push through it
✅ How to set more appointments without feeling “salesy”
✅ What separates agents who scale to 6+ figures from those who don’t
If you’re serious about closing more real estate deals in 2025, this is the playbook.
Hit play and get ready to level up.
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Mike Novak:
[0:33] Today, we're talking about talking on the phone, how to have better conversations, Introduction to Phone Conversations
Mike Novak:
[0:39] how to set more appointments, and ultimately make more money through phone conversion. So a couple of things that I would kind of preface this with. I think we can agree that pretty much every agent hates making phone calls. Is that fair to say? I have yet to meet a single agent that says, Mike, I love making phone calls.
Rachael Novak:
[0:57] No, like even people who are like, oh, I don't mind it. No, you hate it. just admit like everybody hates it it's it's not fun it's not great but you learn to love the process because of the results as long as you're avoiding these dang mistakes that we're going to go.
Mike Novak:
[1:14] Through right yeah i mean i think the difference between agents that become great phone converters and that ultimately become high producers because phone conversion allows you to become a high producer and scale is they just still do it right you know what i mean and they get
good and so it sucks less. So is it still going to suck? Yes. Is it still going to feel like a grind? Absolutely. Is there going to be days you don't want to do it and still have to do it? Yes. All those things, right? You're never going to get away from that.
Rachael Novak:
[1:40] No, it is an essential part of the entire industry of real estate, right? Being able to articulate well over the phone. And we're not talking about selling people. We're not talking about talking somebody into doing something that they don't already want to do. But are you able to articulate points across? Are you able to challenge people's thinking in a good and productive way? And are you able to build a connection and rapport with somebody, even if you've worked with them before in the past, but it's been five to 10 years? Like, are you able to really rebuild that relationship with somebody?
Mike Novak:
[2:17] Yeah, you need phone skills, whether it fits your sphere or it's people you've never met in your life.
Rachael Novak:
[2:23] Right?
Mike Novak:
[2:23] Like online leads. I think that knowing we need to do this, just committing to getting really good at it is the mindset to shift into.
Rachael Novak:
[2:30] A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, why not get really good at it? Why not practice to get phenomenal at it? So it becomes second nature, right? It becomes just part of who you are.
Mike Novak:
[2:38] Why do you think it takes agents so freaking long to get good on the phone? Like it's, it's not like a month or three months or anything like that. Like it takes a long ass time.
Rachael Novak:
[2:47] I think with a lot of people it's because they don't see it as a necessary skill. Like a lot of people will say things like, oh, I'm better in person. Oh, I'm better face-to-face. Just get me face-to face and I'll close them. It's like, who are you closing? Like, what are you doing? Like, you're having a conversation with people. It's like, I don't practice having a great conversation with my aunt. I don't practice having a great conversation with my mom. Like, you just have a conversation with them. You stay curious. It's that people frame this as some sort of weird sales close thing when at the end of the day, this is just conversations with people.
Mike Novak:
[3:21] Yeah, and I mean, I would just laugh when agents give me that excuse. Like they're better in person because if you suck on the phone and having conversations on the phone, you're going to suck having conversations in person too.
Rachael Novak:
[3:31] Or you're not going to get them in person to have conversations.
Mike Novak:
[3:34] You'll never get them face to face. So that's just a line of bullshit. If that's the lie you want to tell yourself, you can turn off the podcast right now. But for the rest of you that are still here, the mindset that I've always taken to the phone is looking at it like an ATM machine, right? Because when you get really good at it, that's kind of what it turns into. And you can just keep hitting that thing every single day. And it really does produce consistent income if you are consistent on your effort.
Rachael Novak:
[3:58] 100%.
Why Agents Struggle with Phone Skills
Mike Novak:
[3:59] So super, super important to be incredibly consistent with it. But let's talk about why agents are bad on the phone. And we can give people some ideas on what they could do better. So the first reason that they're bad on the phone is because they don't practice.
Rachael Novak:
[4:13] Correct. And why don't they practice?
Mike Novak:
[4:16] Because everyone hates role plays, too.
Rachael Novak:
[4:18] Yes. It's embarrassing, right? Right. It's it's sometimes it's embarrassing to be in a conversation like you have to really humble yourself and have practice conversation with your teammates or with a colleague or whatever to practice a conversation. And sometimes it's awful. Sometimes I'm still like, oh, I don't even know my brain's out. Like, I don't even know what I'm saying right now. Right. But you have to practice just like anything. You have to practice in the gym to be a good weightlifter. You have to practice volleyball to be good at volleyball. You have to practice golf at the driving range to be good at golf. Like it's the exact same transfer of skill sets as any other thing that you'd want to do in your life. So if you are not taking the time to actually practice, then you're not going to get really good or it's going to take you a really long time to get good because you're practicing on all these clients and likely not. Completely diminishing your potential returns with those people.
Mike Novak:
[5:06] Right as you're practicing on these people you're just burning opportunities.
Rachael Novak:
[5:09] Unfortunately so what.
Mike Novak:
[5:11] Is your recommendation for agents for role plays like how do you coach people on.
Rachael Novak:
[5:14] That i mean the the most important thing with role plays well two two things number one do it every single day like do it before you start making phone calls especially if you're calling like outbound prospecting or if you're doing inbound prospecting leads that have like opted in for instance online get the the butterflies out, get the awkwardness, the nervousness, the excitement out with our teammates or with a colleague. When you and I first got back in real estate in 2016, 17, we were in the office role playing the two of us before we ever hopped on the phone. And it was always like, we would jump up and down and kind of try to change our state a little bit because it's you've got butterflies in your stomach for some weird reason, like as if I'm not, I've never been a shy person in my entire life. But there's something about picking up the phone and trying to have a conversation with a stranger and trying to like figure out details of their life and be curious about
what they're trying to do in real estate that changes the way you approach it. Whereas if I now am able to cut my teeth in the morning on a teammate, then now I've kind of got those wiggles out. I've kind of like messed up how I'm going to and I can bring like a better sense of confidence to that phone call. The other thing is when I when you are role playing, if you're if you're good, like you got to be a good role play partner, right? So if you and I are role playing and you're.
Rachael Novak:
[6:30] Practicing a script and you kind of say something that I'm like, oh, that did not land really well or that didn't come out right. Stop that person in the moment and say, hey, try it this way and then keep going. Don't let them falter through the entire conversation and then be like, oh, at this one point when you said this, try this instead. I always will stop my teammate right in the middle and say, hey, instead of this, that kind of landed wrong. Try saying it this way and then keep going with the conversation because learning in real time will help reframe your brain really quickly for those, those new conversation pathways.
Mike Novak:
[6:59] Yeah. By the end of the role play, you've forgotten what the feedback is.
Rachael Novak:
[7:01] Exactly.
Mike Novak:
[7:01] So I actually think role playing with three people is ideal because you have the lead, you've got the agent or ISA, and then you've got kind of the coach or the kind of observer. And so that observer is able to like really hone in and pay attention, be present to what they're doing well or what they could work on.
Rachael Novak:
[7:17] That's what we've been doing on the team recently, which is great. Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[7:20] Yeah. So I like, I like having a three pack of people for role plays. I think, you know, dedicating 10 to 30 minutes a day is a really good thing to do. First thing in the morning, like you said, thematical prospect, you know, maybe one of the best books when it comes to the mindset of being a great phone converter. You know, they, the Jeb Lout talks about eating the frog every morning. That's doing the hardest thing, right? And so role plays are often going to be that. Don't delay it. Just do it first thing to get in the office and then get right on the phone after role plays, right?
The Importance of Role Playing
Rachael Novak:
[7:45] 100%.
Mike Novak:
[7:45] Just tackle it, right? Get that out of the way. And even if you just do a half hour role play in 90
minutes of phone conversion, that's two hours of your day, you have the whole rest of the day. By 1030, you could go do anything else that you want.
Rachael Novak:
[7:57] Exactly. Like, when we really think about what it takes to build a business, people spend so much time procrastinating the actual revenue generating activities like phone calls, which then should proceed after role plays. Like you said, you can be done by 10, 30, 11 in the morning, and then if you don't want to do anything else that day, you've at least done something in your business. That's like a 10-hour-a-week job.
Mike Novak:
[8:21] Right. But that 10 hours a week could make you piles and piles of money.
Rachael Novak:
[8:26] Yeah, multiple six figures.
Mike Novak:
[8:28] Right. Yeah, and typically when you see agents that have that rollercoaster income where they have a great month and a bad month, it's because they stopped prospecting.
Rachael Novak:
[8:35] You know what I mean?
Mike Novak:
[8:36] They, they, they took their foot off the throttle or they started really paying attention to their pendings and not to new clients and things like that. So when it comes to like being a good role play partner, just to go deeper on what you said, I think it's really important to have in your mind who you're going to be for this person. Like, am I going to be a buyer that needs to sell? Am I going
to be just a home valuation lead? Am I going to be open house lead? And then we also role play different disc profiles as well.
Rachael Novak:
[9:00] Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[9:01] So I think that that's really important. Don't just default to playing who you are. That's not going to help out because what if they get another personality on the phone that's not you? You know what I mean? That's problematic for sure. And then also take role plays and expand them out beyond the phone, right? Like we role play buyer consultations, listing appointments, the closings for both of those things, commission objections. Like these are all things that you should be practicing. It's not just phone, right?
Rachael Novak:
[9:22] And multiple times of year, we'll spend a week role-playing social settings, right? When you go to a networking event or you go to weddings in the summertime, as a real estate agent, what is
the question that you get asked every single time somebody sees you who hasn't seen you in a while who knows you're in real estate?
Mike Novak:
[9:39] How's the market, Mike? How's the market? How do you respond?
Rachael Novak:
[9:42] Roleplay that. Know exactly what to say. Know what's going on in the market so you can answer that question. We roleplay that multiple times a year, 100%.
Mike Novak:
[9:49] So that's the practice part of it. The second thing, the reason that agents are bad on the phone, in my opinion, is because they don't have a system on how they're going to do it. They just come in and they're like, I don't know who I'm going to call today. Everyone's just kind of created equal in the database or they don't even have a database and they're just calling off their cell phone, like circle prospecting around their listing and things like that. So talk about process and systems for just a minute. Like how can they get a better idea of what to do?
Rachael Novak:
[10:13] Yeah. So there's multifacets to this, of course. If you're somebody who pays for leads, and so you're investing in Zillow or realtor.com or pay-per-click, or you're doing some sort of online lead generation, and do not have a CRM that you can bring those people into and organize them in a very succinct way, you are leaving money. Tons of opportunity on the table. And not just money that you can make, but serving a lot of people at a high level. So number one, like, get a freaking CRM. And that's probably a whole other podcast that we need to do. Secondly, if you if you don't have a CRM, and you also don't pay for leads, and you rely on your sphere, and you rely on circle prospecting or expired FSBOs, that's that kind of thing, have a specific framework for every single day that you go in. So like the night before. Know exactly, okay, I pulled this list from the title company. I have 150 names and numbers that are like the people around this listing that I just listed or a house that I just sold. Know that that's the list you're going to call. Practice the script that you're going to call and use on those people. And then similarly, if you're just calling Sphere, who are you calling? Like, is it the people from your gym tomorrow? Is it the people from your church the next day? Like, just have a plan going into it. When you wake up in the morning, you're kind of like, I don't know.
Mike Novak:
[11:33] Yeah, well, the reason I bring this up is because when agents don't know exactly what to do, they tend to not do anything, right? So having clarity about what is the action I'm going to take becomes very, very important, right? If you have to come in and think about who you should call, you've kind of already lost the day. You know what I mean? It needs to be really clear. Like, I know this list, this list, and this list. I'm going to do all these things today, right? So figuring out your system is really important. At our coaching company,
Building Effective Call Systems
Mike Novak:
[11:55] Warrior Coaching, we have a very specific framework on the call lists. We create the cadences, the follow-ups, all of those things so that when agents walk into the office, they know exactly what it takes to get their CRM caught up for the day.
Rachael Novak:
[12:08] That's exactly right, yeah. And then to piggyback on that, a lot of people are bad on the phone, not just because they don't have a system, but then they don't have a call framework going into those conversations. So talk about that.
Mike Novak:
[12:20] For a second. Well, so, I mean, before we talk about framework, we should talk about scripts because a lot of agents still are over the mindset that they need to memorize a script or they try to be very robotic because they're super nervous about being on the phone. And so when I coach people, I really like to coach them on starting with a script and using that as the kind of understanding what questions to ask and then throw the script in the garbage and just talk to the person like they're human. So, but it is helpful when you start and you're a brand new agent or converter to understand, Hey, these are the questions I should ask. And this is kind of an idea of what the sequencing of those questions could be for a successful phone call. That's really the limit of a script, right? Like we're not like one of those coaching companies that tells you like, Hey, you know, like you got to be like chanting this thing from the top of the rooftops and it's, everyone's the same. Like that, that, that's not what top converters do. That's what very mediocre converters do. That's what shitty real estate coaches tell you to do to be perfectly honest with you as well so um the better thing to do like have scripts and again we have proven scripts we share with people but then master the framework and the framework that i love is a four-part framework it starts with the motivation.
Mike Novak:
[13:27] And we'll talk more about, you know, kind of transactionalizing phone calls and the mistake here in a minute that agents make. But really getting into the person's motivation as fast as possible. Like I was just doing a coaching session with our own ISA, and we listened to one of his calls. And he didn't talk about their motivation until seven minutes into the phone call. Huge mistake, right? And so if you can get to motivation in the first 20 seconds, that really is going to shift the quality of that phone call. And it also takes you to the second part of the four-part framework after connection is connection, right? Or sorry, after motivation is connection. Yes. And so those two things really go hand in hand, right? Because when you understand motivation, then you can get the personal story and you now can connect with the person, right? So motivation, connection, they work together. The third part would be qualification, right? Is this person really qualified to transact and do something? If you do that too soon, like if you do that right out of the gates, you haven't really earned the trust of that person to ask them personal financial questions and you're going to get shut down every single time. So there's a reason that's the third thing, right? Well, you're going to get, like, you know, I'm not going to tell you that, right? I'm not going to tell you my credit scores or how much money I've got saved. And then the last part is just setting the appointment, right? So, again, motivation, connection, qualification, appointment. And if you can
have all that, you're good. So, no LP mama here. No chanting scripts from the top of your lungs or jumping up and down. Just commit to the framework.
Rachael Novak:
[14:46] Well, yeah, I mean, one of the, like, to kind of play off of that call framework, you know, the way that I have coached a lot of our agents in our coaching company as well is, you know, obviously there is, there's a basic amount of qualifying information that you need to have in order to set a quality appointment, right? You need to make sure that you've got finances, you got to make sure they have the motivation, they have the timeline, have all these things. And so really, you're almost kind of working off of like an internal checklist of items that you need to be able to qualify in order to set a quality appointment. So the goal of the role plays, right before getting on the calls, is to practice how to gather information that you need in essentially a checklist form without sounding like you're reading off of a checklist.
Mike Novak:
[15:30] Right.
Rachael Novak:
[15:31] Right. People can really like pick that up. A hundred percent. It's like, okay. And moving on to qualify, like, you know, you can easily sound like you're reading right now. Like, are you doing like an intake form?
Mike Novak:
[15:41] Right. Yeah. So, so that's really, really important. And if you get the framework correct, it's going to really shift the quality of your conversations for sure. And it's going to make you far less transactional also.
Rachael Novak:
[15:52] Exactly.
Mike Novak:
[15:53] The next one, they don't really prepare for brush-offs and objections. Can you just kind of define for people what the difference is between those two things?
Rachael Novak:
[16:00] Sure. So brush-offs would be things like getting spoused, right? We call that something like, oh, no, I'm just looking for fun.
Mike Novak:
[16:06] Yeah, just looking is the one everyone's going to see, right?
Rachael Novak:
[16:08] Yeah, just totally curious. Oh, no, like, oh, my husband is not ready. Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not serious, this and that. Like, people are going to start with that because that's a brush-off, right? They're just going to kind of brush off and see, like, I'm not ready to talk to this person. I don't really want to divulge information to this person. I don't trust this person, I know this person. So
brush off is going to be. Whereas objections typically are rooted in either some sort of fear or uncertainty or fact, right? An objection could be, I'm not actually retiring until 2027. So I'm having no plans to sell my house until I'm retired, or I'm in a lease and I absolutely can't get out of it until next February. So like those are legitimate objections that can obviously be worked around in regards to their timeline. brush offs are just you know quick just looking for fun i was just curious about the neighborhood whatever.
Mike Novak:
[16:56] So if you've got like a legit objection like you were saying like retirement or you know their lease is up what about like objections where the person is just testing you sure right like what i talk about that well where they're like you know they're saying well i'm gonna actually go interview like three or four agents and i'll call you you know if i want to meet with you something like that or how much do you charge for your commissions or you know i just really I want the cheapest listing agent. Like these are all objections, right? And so what about that part of objections too?
Rachael Novak:
[17:26] I mean, there's a lot to navigate on the phone. Like, you know, for me personally, when I get these kind of objections over the phone, it really has more to do with I have, if they're asking me these things or they're challenging me, I have obviously not provided enough value or built enough rapport with that person to get them to trust me, to believe that I'm the best person for the job. So I either need to continue to dig on the personal side of things and continue to build or poor, or I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to negotiate over the phone when I haven't even met them, right? There's no context for like a relationship over the phone. If they are incredibly transactional or if, you know, they're just looking for the cheapest person, I'm all, I'll kind of handle an objection the way of like, you know, looking for the cheapest thing you're going to get, what you're going to pay for. And sometimes it's not a fit. And I know that right away, depending on the objection that they give.
Mike Novak:
[18:15] Would you still like, if someone said, hey, you know, I just want the least expensive option, you would still try to work through that objection, meet them in person, see if you can challenge your thinking, right? Because a lot of objections to me are misconceptions.
Understanding Objections and Brush-Offs
Rachael Novak:
[18:28] Right?
Mike Novak:
[18:29] Where the person's actually needing their mindset challenged and the assumptions they're making challenged, right? And so like another kind of example of like a legit objection could be the market, right? Waiting for the market to go down or go up or interest rates. Like those are also objections that you got to get really good at handling. So coming up with like a list of these objections and then role-playing them so that you're kind of actually excited when you get it, that's
the place you want to get to. You're like, hey, you've already got an agent. Sweet. Let's go down that rabbit hole, right? Like let's see if you really have an agent or if you're just kind of giving me that objection. Okay, you just want the cheapest commission. Let's handle that objection, right? You want to interview 17 agents. Okay, let's handle that objection, right? You want to wait for rates to go down. Let's handle that one, right? Like can you actually like rapid fire these? And I love rapid fire objection role plays where we're just like throwing objections at each other. Like, give me your worst curveball. You know what I mean? Another one that I've gotten a lot is I just want to talk to the listing agent, like a buyer, right? Like, again, it's a misconception. I think they're going to get a better deal, right? So how can you challenge that person's thinking and establish very quickly that's not in their best interest?
Rachael Novak:
[19:28] Yeah, I mean, the majority of the time, those misconceptions or objections have a lot more to do with needing simply more information or more education in that realm than it does them actually being a hard line believing what they're saying.
Mike Novak:
[19:40] Right. When agents hear objections, they get scared and they get really defensive. And that's actually not what you want to do, right? You actually want to get, like I said, get kind of excited and look at it as an opportunity to clarify something.
Rachael Novak:
[19:53] Right.
Mike Novak:
[19:53] And challenge thinking a little bit more and then actually tell them the truth.
Rachael Novak:
[19:56] Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it. That's one of the reasons, like you said, that agents are bad on the phone. If they're not practicing, if they don't see those as opportunities to educate or inform or build more rapport, then the mindset going into the conversation, like you're not having a good mindset.
Mike Novak:
[20:13] Right. Exactly. Okay. What about fear of rejection? I mean, that's definitely another reason that agents are bad on the phone. And oftentimes fear of rejection will show up in a couple of different ways that I've observed. One is people just won't do it. Like they won't get on the phone. Or two, when they get on the phone, they're very timid. Have you seen that?
Rachael Novak:
[20:28] Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody, just to be super clear, like everybody starts out with a fear of rejection. Nobody likes getting rejected. But if you look at like the mindset that I took when we got back into real estate, when we were hopping on the phone with all these people that we didn't know, all these leads that we were bringing in and that were inquiring about properties on our website. You know, when I'm calling these people, if I know the statistics for me, the data was really helpful having my brain. If I know those statistics that, you know, of these leads,
maybe one or two are going to convert in the first three months, and then maybe another one or two are going to convert in the next year and a half. So in my mind, if I make 100 phone calls, I maybe get two people that are interested in buying or selling real estate in the next 30 days to 90 days. So every single no that I'm getting, every time I'm getting rejection, I'm that much closer to the person that's going to say yes.
Rachael Novak:
[21:23] So having that mindset of walking in and being like, I'm expecting to be rejected. Like that's an expectation that I have and I'm okay with it. That has nothing to do with my skill set. That has nothing to do with how good I am at what I do. It has everything to do with the fact that that person is not ready, not qualified. It's not in their wheelhouse right now. It's not something they're prioritizing in their life. And that's totally okay. At the end of the day, what do we tell our clients, right? I don't care when you transact. I don't care when you buy or when you sell. All I care about is that you do it with me. so i'll wait so rejection really is being able to like delay the gratification of the yes of the appointment right and take it in the teeth they take it on the chin over and over and over, understanding that every no you're getting is one no closer to the yes right.
Mike Novak:
[22:09] I think when you those are great points by the way and i think that when you consider the concept of rejection it's really helpful to consider the worst case scenario that can.
Overcoming Fear of Rejection
Rachael Novak:
[22:18] Come out of a phone call right like what.
Mike Novak:
[22:19] Somebody could scream at you and tell you to go fuck off.
Rachael Novak:
[22:22] And like that.
Mike Novak:
[22:24] I mean, some people that just like destroys them.
Rachael Novak:
[22:27] Right.
Mike Novak:
[22:27] But let's put that in context. You don't know this person. This person likely doesn't know you either. Right. So they probably just caught them at a bad moment.
Rachael Novak:
[22:36] Totally.
Mike Novak:
[22:36] And ultimately, we're, Like I just told Isaiah or Isaiah 2, the hang up button works both ways. Like I can hang up on you just as fast as you can hang up on me. And if I don't like you, I'm hanging up on you, right?
Rachael Novak:
[22:46] But that mindset is rare. Like a lot of real estate agents don't have that mindset. They're like cling on to every lead as if like this lead is like the money that I'm waiting for when they don't realize that that's probably one of the 98 no's that I need to let go so that I can get closer to my yes.
Mike Novak:
[23:02] Right. So I just like think about the worst case scenario and then ask yourself, am I okay with this? If you're not okay with this you may honestly not be cut out for being a top producer like you're gonna you can go sell five or ten homes a year or sphere whatever but you're never gonna go get to like a hundred deals a year by by not being able to conquer that you know what i mean like it's a real limiting belief for a lot of people and there's a reason why in every single organization even fortune 500 companies and i always tell people it's the two people that make the most money is the ceo and it's the top sales people right and the reason it's the top sales people because top salespeople drive the revenue for the whole organization and organizations die without revenue. And because very few people can handle rejection. How do you become a top sales person? You get really fucking good at sales and you handle rejection.
Rachael Novak:
[23:48] Handle it like a pro. Exactly.
Mike Novak:
[23:50] So it's directly proportionate to your income.
Rachael Novak:
[23:53] It is a hundred percent. That's a great, great point.
Mike Novak:
[23:55] So the next one, and we talked a little bit about this, is they're transactional, right? And this kind of goes back to the call framework a little bit, right? You want to talk about this and how you see this show up.
Rachael Novak:
[24:04] Yeah a lot of people and and we learned this from our coach eric hatch we i mean we learned so much from him so shout out eric hatch on this but people make it about the real estate and not about the person right and so when you are in a phone call and you're consistently asking more about the house they were interested in or the house that they want paint me a picture of what the house looks like you're looking for as opposed to being like, what kind of lifestyle do you want to live? Why is it important to your life? Why is it important to your spouse? Why like is having dogs? What is it about that house that is important to their life? Make it more about the human connection. Make it more about the lifestyle that they're looking for. Make it more about the quality of life that they're looking to have and less about the house. And you will go immediately from
transactional to relational, which is one of the key points of being a top producer and selling a lot of real estate. Or any sales in general, is what is the connection with what I can provide, the skill sets I can provide you to get to this goal? It's not that house. It's not the house on Cedar Street. It's the lifestyle that you're looking for with the payment that you're comfortable with.
Mike Novak:
[25:17] Right. And also, why the hell do you want to make a move? Yeah. I got to understand.
Rachael Novak:
[25:21] What's your motivation?
Mike Novak:
[25:22] Yeah, exactly. So that's the easiest way to get past transactionalizing it is just find out why. Yeah. Right? Like, what does every two-year-old say a bajillion times? Why mom? Become a two year-old, right? It's a great question. Why does that matter to you?
Rachael Novak:
[25:36] Tell me more.
Mike Novak:
[25:37] Why do you want to make a move, right? What do you want to change about your current living situation, right? Like just get really good at asking those super basic questions. And if you don't, like when people transactionalize phone calls, it's because they don't know what to say.
Rachael Novak:
[25:49] Correct.
Mike Novak:
[25:49] And if you actually just shift a little bit and you stop thinking about what you're going to say next and you just become very present with phone calls, you listen to what they're saying, they're actually going to tell you what to ask next. And that's like where this game really gets fun because
people say little things and your ability to pick up on those little things and then ask clarifying questions is how you get that massive deep connection.
Rachael Novak:
[26:11] Excellent point. Like this is exactly how we coach our team and our clients is you need to listen to hear what that person is saying, not listen to respond to what they're saying.
Mike Novak:
[26:25] Right.
Rachael Novak:
[26:26] Listen to hear it.
Mike Novak:
[26:27] Yep. Next one. they don't know how to hunt through a database, right? I mean, we see this
one all the time. Our team has 80,000 leads in our database. And I've seen new agents come into our team. They start calling random people, right? And so why is that a big mistake?
Rachael Novak:
[26:42] Well, with the kind of technology that our team invest in, and a lot of top teams across the nation invest in, you're actually able to filter within your database people who have been active on the website, right? So it's going to make sense. If we think, if we put ourselves in the shoes of the people on the other side of the website, I'm not calling people. It's not going to be productive for me to call people who haven't even looked at a house online in six months or six years. But if I'm able to filter and say, hey, these hundred people have all looked at a property or two in the last two weeks and they haven't been called, that's probably a pretty good list. Recently, they've been on a website looking at something. That's a great opportunity to open a conversation about curiosity, looking for fun, or thinking about making a move.
Mike Novak:
[27:33] Yeah. So we're talking about behavioral based calling and follow up.
Strategic Database Calling
Mike Novak:
[27:36] And this is a really big concept for people. And a lot of agents don't even think about this. They just jump in the database, guns a blazing. They don't slow down enough to really get strategic about who they're going to call. If you only have 90 minutes to call today, who are the most important people you're going to call during that period of time? I mean, that's probably 40 to 50 phone calls.
Rachael Novak:
[27:54] Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[27:54] If I put a gun to your head and say, you have to get two appointments to add a 40 to 50 phone calls. Can you tell me who you're going to call? Right?
Rachael Novak:
[27:59] It's extreme, but yes.
Mike Novak:
[28:00] Well, pressure's on Russian roulette, baby. But this is a real skill, right? And it's a real skill gap as well. And what you're talking about is, you know, not only the behavioral based fall, but it's kind of looking at the life cycle of the purchase decision to buy a home, right? People don't make an instant decision to buy a house in most cases, unless you're like using Zillow or something like that. And we don't even like that for, there's a whole bunch of different reasons and rabbit holes to go down. But typically people go on to websites and look at homes months, if not years before they're thinking about making a move. They're just curious, check out pricing, get a feel for things and look around.
Rachael Novak:
[28:39] Yeah, gather information.
Mike Novak:
[28:40] And so it's when they go from what I call the information collection phase to a purchasing decision phase, like, hey, I'm actually going to do this, that you want to catch them. And so you have to use technology that tips you off and tells you things like why Lopo does this better than anyone, right? Hey, this person is doing this behavior. You should go follow up with this person.
They put it on a list for you in your CRM, right? And then be reaching out to those people. Some of my favorite signals are the people that have been off the website for years and they come back. Like that's really interesting. I want to know why, right? The other one is someone who views the same property three, four, five times. They liked something about this house. I need to figure out why.
Rachael Novak:
[29:18] They're dreaming about it. They're putting furniture in it.
Mike Novak:
[29:20] Right. So I would like hone in on those two, right? And if that doesn't give you enough people to call, you can go to people that like save houses, that open emails. Like there's so many different things that you can track now on what people are doing to get insights and to really focus your attention to, you know?
Articulating Value to Clients
Rachael Novak:
[29:35] I love it.
Mike Novak:
[29:36] So the next one, I know this is a long list, but there's a lot of reasons agents are bad on the phone. I got two more for you. They don't know how to articulate value. What does that mean?
Rachael Novak:
[29:44] They are unable to convey what it is that we do and why we're important part of the process.
Mike Novak:
[29:52] Okay. Yeah, good. Right. And can you make the person feel confident about your competency?
Rachael Novak:
[29:58] Yes.
Mike Novak:
[29:58] Right.
Rachael Novak:
[29:59] Exactly.
Mike Novak:
[29:59] And real estate is like a big decision, right? Like, I mean, a lot of times this is the most amount of money someone's going to spend in their life. What do they want they want confidence they want assurance that who they're going to put their trust in is going to be able to get the job done for them they're not going to pressure them to make a bad decision they're going to guide and navigate them through the process as an industry we have a horrible reputation right terrible like slimy used car salesman like you hear this shit all the time do bare minimum so huge check how can you flip that on it that script on its head and bring massive, massive value to these phone calls, right? And knowing your market, knowing the process, knowing how to explain these complex things in very simple frameworks and language patterns becomes the way that you do that.
Rachael Novak:
[30:42] And we could probably go really deep in regards to the actual language patterns, or you can go to the warrioragent.com slash warrior bundle and go grab our entire masterclass on this entire thing.
Mike Novak:
[30:53] Yeah, we break this all down.
Rachael Novak:
[30:54] Yeah, but going back to why role plays are so important, to be able to convey and articulate value means you have to be confident in what you're saying. And even saying things like, well, you know, even the little transitional words.
Mike Novak:
[31:11] People pick up on that stuff.
Rachael Novak:
[31:11] Yes, they hear that and they go, uncertain, unsure, not confident. Those tiny little unspoken, well, I guess they're spoken, but those unspoken little phrases that sound like nothing, that feel like fillers of space in a conversation, do not articulate value. They do not convey confidence. So role playing and being able to be very articulate, being able to be very concise, not use filler words like, like, okay, make a huge difference in that articulation of value.
Mike Novak:
[31:39] Right. And so like, how do you know if you're articulating value? Well, well, obviously setting appointments is a really good indicator of that. But the second thing is, do people show up for your appointments, right? I always tell people, if you can make the person want the appointment more than you want it, like they almost feel like it would be a financial disaster to not meet with you, that's a good fucking place to be.
Rachael Novak:
[31:58] A hundred percent, exactly. Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[32:00] So that one takes some time, like new agents, new ISAs, they struggle with this for like six to nine months. And then all of a sudden, typically it's like, Hey, now they understand the process, understand how to explain it. They've kind of seen a lot of these different scenarios. They know how to really articulate it and they're good to go. And people feel that, right? That feeling is what we're talking about.
Mastering the Closing Process
Mike Novak:
[32:20] Really important. And then the last one is they don't know how to close somebody.
Rachael Novak:
[32:24] Right?
Mike Novak:
[32:24] So what are, what does that mean? Exactly. Like, again, we're not like trying to be like pushy used car salesman here, but there are some frameworks that will help you close more leads into appointments.
Rachael Novak:
[32:34] Right? Absolutely. I mean, so the way that I would break it down in my mind is it's as simple as acting like a professional and saying, okay, great. So the next step in the process is we meet up for 20, 30 minutes. We go over the process together. We articulate what value, like what must haves you have in the property or walk through your property, whatever that looks like. This is the next step in the process, right? That's you articulating as a professional and that's closing somebody that's saying, Hey, the next step is an appointment. Like this makes sense. Now it's a logical next step. Whereas a lot of real estate agents would be like, okay, well, do you want to like get together? Like what, what day is good for you?
Mike Novak:
[33:08] Or the worst thing they do is they say, I'll set up a search for you. Like you just had this person in your fingertips, like eating out of your hand. And basically asking you for an appointment and you didn't just tell them what the next step is. The next step part is the part I want to emphasize what you just said. Like Sharon says, everyone just wants to know what's the next step, right? Just tell me so I know what to do. I haven't done this before, or maybe I've done this two or three times in my life, but you do this every freaking day. Tell me with confidence what I need to do and why I need to do it. Right. And that's what we're talking about with the clothes, right? Exactly. And it's not like some pushy clothes, but can you articulate why you should meet with me? Exactly.
Rachael Novak:
[33:47] Okay. I'm going to liken this to another profession like a doctor or a dentist, okay? If I'm calling in and I wanted some information, how much does this cost? How much does this cost? What does this cost? They don't then say, okay, well, we'll shoot you a WebMD link so you can get some more information on that. They go, okay, great. When would you like to set your
appointment? I've got this time and this time available with this doctor. Why are real estate agents not seeing that as the exact same thing? Like we're also a professional. It's the exact same clothes. Don't pressure, but this is the logical next step.
Mike Novak:
[34:21] So in our Buyer and Seller Masterclasses, we do give people our exact closes for both buyers and sellers that you can go check out on the Warrior Agent. So they're in there and they work really freaking well. Like tested thousands of times.
Rachael Novak:
[34:35] Literally thousands of times. So yeah, so I think we've articulated pretty well
Improving Phone Call Introductions
Rachael Novak:
[34:38] why agents are bad on the phone.
Mike Novak:
[34:39] Yeah, so maybe like think through these and think maybe some of these you don't do, but some of them I'm sure that you do do and really think about what you could do to improve and shore up your game. But again it can take a while to address all these things so let's give you something more positive on how you could fix some of these things and give you a little bit more detail on the call framework i think that could be really helpful for people the first mistake that's easy to fix is the introduction that people have you know when you're calling a lead and they don't know you you've got about 10 seconds in that phone call for that lead to decide if they're going to listen to what you're saying or if they're going to hang up on you right because they don't know who you are you're catching them probably at a weird time and why should i stay on the phone with you, right? So can you tell me really, really quickly why you're calling?
Rachael Novak:
[35:24] Exactly. And just pro tip for real estate agents, when you're calling somebody and they don't know you and you don't really know them and you're looking to potentially make open a conversation for a potential sale, the worst thing that you can do, the fastest way to create that sales wall defense from that lead is to call and say oh hey mike it's rachel from the novak team how are you.
Mike Novak:
[35:50] Yeah boom you're a salesperson and i think there's some from what i've heard from our friends in the south like it's rude if you don't do this and so like maybe it's location specific yeah but but in the northwest up here like we ain't got no time no people will be like click yeah you don't give a shit how i feel why do you even ask me because this is really disingenuous but for our south friends like our good buddy buddy blake you know yeah he's he's always told me like you gotta ask people how they're doing mike you know what i mean they're like okay yeah or yeah a wendy you know as well so all right i think that i think some of that is geographically based but another like big intro mistake i see is agents will call and they'll just say like hey rachel it's mike know that you know
i saw that you were interested in one two three main street do you have any questions on that house right why is that kind of a dead end and and just kind of a non-starter.
Rachael Novak:
[36:40] Because it's way too broad. You have absolutely no frame of reference whatsoever, why they were curious about it, what they're interested in it, like you're, it's too much for them to process who this person is, why they're calling, what they're calling from, and then to try to answer a completely broad, open answered question when they don't trust you. I wouldn't tell you. Like, why would I tell you what I'm interested in? No, I don't have any questions. I have a thousand questions, but I don't even know how to start asking the first one.
Mike Novak:
[37:07] Right. And it's kind of a yes or no question, you know? Like, you know, I guess I have questions. I don't know if I have questions.
Rachael Novak:
[37:14] But they don't want to.
Mike Novak:
[37:14] People don't want to admit that.
Rachael Novak:
[37:15] Yeah, I don't know you.
Mike Novak:
[37:15] So I don't want to tell you I have questions.
Rachael Novak:
[37:17] People don't want to say, oh yeah, I have a ton of questions, right? It's a rarity when somebody's like.
Mike Novak:
[37:20] Oh, I have a ton of questions.
Rachael Novak:
[37:22] Actually.
Mike Novak:
[37:22] Right. So again, if we go back to the framework of the call, the ideal framework, it really bypasses the connection and motivation opportunity that.
Rachael Novak:
[37:31] You have on a phone.
Mike Novak:
[37:32] Call. So definitely not the best way to go. But I see like 95% of agents make that mistake. And it's going to set you up for a lot of struggle on the phone.
Focusing on Motivation and Connection
Mike Novak:
[37:41] So get a better intro than that. Tell people who you are, why they're calling, and try to get to the motivation as fast as possible. Okay. So when it comes to motivation, you know, figuring out why they want to make a move is obviously the single most important thing. The soonest you can ask that question, the better off you're going to be. If you ask that quick enough in the phone call, you may actually not even talk about the house again, right? Like your bet, your best phone calls are when you don't actually know anything about the location they want to buy in or what they want in a home. But you know, everything about this person, like Chuck on our team, it comes to mind, right? Like By the time he gets off the phone and sets an appointment, he knows their grandkids name. He knows their dog had for dinner last night. He just went into high school. Yeah, exactly. He knows like all of their friends, you know, and like, that's what you want, right? Like that is hitting connection, like just totally on the head.
Rachael Novak:
[38:28] Well, and this is really important. And we honed this in big time in 2020 and 2021, because when people were calling signs, right, when we were getting sign calls in, 99% of the time that house was already under contract or it had 18 offers waiting to be reviewed on it. And so the house was irrelevant at that point. So what we found really, really quickly was if we ask what questions they have about the house, well, that house isn't available. So now we've just completely missed an opportunity to open a great conversation with somebody. Whereas if we open up with, you know, oh, hey, are you thinking about making a move? Or is this the neighborhood that you've been looking at? Like make it about them, what their motivation is, and not about the house itself. Because that house is irrelevant, especially if it's under contract already.
Mike Novak:
[39:10] Yeah, this totally works for sign calls as well. It's a great point. The next part of motivation is really understanding what they want to change from their current house. Like this could be something like, I just want to own and not rent. It could be that I want more space or less space or different location, but that's going to really help you understand motivations, but you can dig into what they want to change and what the current pain point is with where they're living now, right? Like you got to go deep on that one. That's motivation. What about connection? Like, what about that?
Rachael Novak:
[39:38] Yeah, I mean, the connection really comes down to once you understand, you know, if they're wanting to make that move, you know, why they're wanting to make that move, what pain point is driving them or timeline is driving them to make this move, you know, now we can really start connecting with them on a personal level. So a lot of times moves are prompted by things like a divorce or a death or a retirement. Life events, right? are typically entering into a new season, a new chapter. And that's how we've always looked at our role in real estate is we get to be a character in a chapter of this person's life, right? And that's not lost on us how important that is and how big of a deal that is. And so if I know that I'm going to play an important integral part, I'm going
to play an important character in this person's story of their entire life, and they're going to look back on this chapter, and I'm going to be a part of it, then it's really important that I understand everything about what it is that they're doing, wanting, looking for, why that's important to them,
who else is involved, who else I need to be able to be involved with in regards to that. And so that, I mean, knowing the why, the when, the who are all very, very important, way more so than what color of house they want or what layout of floor plan they want, right? It's about the person.
Mike Novak:
[40:52] Yeah, the life event is probably the most important.
Rachael Novak:
[40:54] Part of connection. Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[40:55] And then qualification. And I bring up qualification. This is part of the framework for a lot of reasons. Like we want to make sure we don't waste time on leads that can't actually do anything. But we equally don't want to not set appointments until someone gets approved. Like that's a huge mistake that agents make. They're like, well, I don't want to waste my time. You're not pre appreciated. So I'm going to meet with you, right? That's not good enough, actually. You need to get really good at asking questions to decide if this person could get approved or not.
Rachael Novak:
[41:19] Right?
Mike Novak:
[41:19] So what are some of those questions? And like, how would you kind of unpack this?
Rachael Novak:
[41:23] Yeah. Yeah, well, it's obviously going to depend on whether they own a home or not. So if they own a home, obviously, it's really important that you understand how long they've owned it, what therefore what kind of potential equity you can kind of project they have in it. And then of course, are they working? What is their current income that you can't ask that always right away, but you can ask questions like, what do you do for work? How long have you been there? What do you do there? Like to kind of understand, are they in a managerial position? Did they just start? Are they going to actually be able to qualify for a loan if they need it? So if they own a home, those are good questions to ask. If they're first-time homebuyers and they're renting, asking questions like, what is it that you pay per month? Is that a comfortable rate? Is there flexibility for more? Have you, by chance, saved up any money for any closing costs or down payment? Asking these general questions to kind of get an understanding of the financial scope of where they're sitting is incredibly important for the initial qualifying over the phone. And then, of course, if things sound like they're decent, like you're not going to ask somebody like, have you ever filed for bankruptcy before? Don't ask that. But you can ask after a couple of leading questions, do you happen to have any idea what your credit score could be? And asking a simple question like that, people will tell you if they're proud of it. If they're not proud of it, they'll be like, oh, it's really bad.
Mike Novak:
[42:34] If you ask at the right time, right? Like there's a reason that we've already got motivation connection tackled before we get here because this is all about timing. At this point, you should know a lot about them, about why they were thinking about making a move buying or selling they should feel like they can trust you and so now they're they're feeling comfortable that you're not some like online scammer or some you know random person that they don't know and they're gonna actually answer these questions exactly like the trust is much much.
Rachael Novak:
[43:00] Higher yeah so really it's like the payment the ownership the job situation like you can deduce a lot from that information that you don't have to get super personal right up front.
Mike Novak:
[43:10] With them right so payment relevancy is really important if the person's renting, like is what they're paying in rent gonna translate into buying a house in our market? Like in our market, rents are quite a bit lower than a mortgage payment. And so oftentimes there's a big gap there and understanding if they can go up higher or not becomes very, very important.
Rachael Novak:
[43:26] Mm-hmm, exactly.
Mike Novak:
[43:27] The other thing I'd mention on qualification is like, you need to listen for cues and you need to know when to move on. Like I've heard people like really kind of like almost go down this checklist of questions we give them, but they just told you they work at Amazon and they've been there for eight years in their product management. Like what goes on in your head when I tell you that person probably makes really good money, right? So I'm done qualifying you right then and there, right? I know I'm good. Or we were just talking to a doctor like the other day, right?
Rachael Novak:
[43:54] Yeah.
Mike Novak:
[43:54] Like, okay, like let's use some common sense here and know like the average doctor here makes $600,000 a year. I've checked that box.
Rachael Novak:
[44:02] Right? If somebody has been a doctor and they're Swedish and they've been there for six years, you don't have to be like, do you happen to know what your credit score could be? Like there's going to be, yeah.
Mike Novak:
[44:10] Well, if you don't pick up on those cues, you get out of report really.
Rachael Novak:
[44:13] Really quick. That's a really good point.
Mike Novak:
[44:15] So that brings us to the appointment. You know, let's talk about the A or the B close. Like this is something that we coach people on. The A or the B close is really giving people two different times that you could meet with them, right? So know those two appointment times that you got available before you're on the phone to say, how's today at four or Saturday at 11. Don't ask them like, how does that sound? You kind of mentioned that earlier. Or would you find value in that? Like these are really passive closes, right? Just have a confident, assertive close and don't ask them if they want to meet with you. Just say this time or this time.
Rachael Novak:
[44:46] Yeah, because this is the logical next step, guys. Like we talked about, I'm a professional. When I meet with people, I am there to do work. I am there to work for them. I am there to help them through an entire process that involves a lot of money, a lot of coordination and a lot of time. And so I don't want to waste mine and I don't want to waste theirs. So if I'm going to say, hey, you know, it sounds like the logical next step is definitely this. It sounds like you're prepared. So I've got Monday at 5 p.m. Or I've got Friday at 10 a.m. Which one of those work for you?
Mike Novak:
[45:13] Right. And then really articulating what you're doing. Like I said earlier, for the buyer consultation, you know, what I really like to say is like, okay, like you said, the next step, that's really part of the language pattern. So the next step would be to meet for, you know, 30 or 40 minutes in my office where I can walk you through the home buying process, get you up to speed on the market, and identify exactly what we're looking for in your next home. How's today at 4, tomorrow at 6, right? There's the area to be closed and the articulation of what we're going to do.
Rachael Novak:
[45:38] Yeah. So don't call it a buyer consultation. And I don't even love to call it an uproar.
Mike Novak:
[45:44] Strategy session is gross too. Like it feels like a gym membership.
Rachael Novak:
[45:47] We're literally getting together to discuss the process.
Mike Novak:
[45:50] Right. On the seller side, I like to, again, very much articulate what we're going to do. So reviewing your upgrades, looking at comps, walking you through the listing process, and then really pinpointing your equity position. And notice I didn't say pinpoint your sales price.
Rachael Novak:
[46:04] Yes.
Mike Novak:
[46:04] Very, very big difference. We don't have time to go into that today, but pinpointing equity is going to be a lot more successful for you. Just trust me on that. Anything else that we should talk about?
Rachael Novak:
[46:13] I mean, in regards to the appointment.
Mike Novak:
[46:15] Just anything on phone conversion, we just, we just gave people a whole coaching call right.
Rachael Novak:
[46:20] Here on this podcast, right?
Mike Novak:
[46:22] The curiosity part would be kind of the last thing that I would add, you know, just like being curious about every single thing, curious converters just do better again, not to keep bringing up Chuck, but Chuck is super curious about everything. And he wants to know why people are doing X or Y. And that leads to really good conversations.
Rachael Novak:
[46:37] Yeah. I mean, I think like what this all really comes down to, to be a really good converter and be able to be very curious in conversation and also have rapport on all these things is to continue to build and work on and hone your emotional intelligence, right? Your EQ, your ability to pick things up that are unspoken, your ability to hear tone of voice, your ability to articulate and change tone of voice and tonality and volume and speed and pace and mirroring and matching. Like all of these things are so important in language anyways, is the better that you can become in regards to your language patterns, the more emotionally intelligent you can become on the phone. It's not going to feel personal anymore when you're asking personal questions. And I think that's one big hurdle that a lot of people, the same people that have the fear of rejection, have the fear of asking personal questions. They don't want to ask something that feels like a, like too personal. Guys, when you go to the doctor and your doctor asks you about your bowel movements, does it feel really personal?
Mike Novak:
[47:33] Why?
Rachael Novak:
[47:34] Yes. However, they're your doctor. So they need to know. So don't ask people about that. But when you ask people about what do they do for work? Do you happen to have any idea what you brought home last year? Like that would be an important question depending on, of course, the job that they provided. So being curious, asking those kind of questions, those are important parts of the process to understand if you can help that person or not. So get over the fact that it's a personal question because this is a personal process. Stay, I mean, your point is exactly right. Stay curious and be curious multiple levels. So So they tell you, you ask something, they tell you that that's going to open up an opportunity to gather more information on that particular subject with this person. So it's, tell me more about that. Why is that? Right?
Mike Novak:
[48:16] Why does that matter to you?
Conclusion and Coaching Opportunities
Rachael Novak:
[48:17] Exactly.
Mike Novak:
[48:17] Awesome. So there's a lot of nuances to all of this. As you can see, like there's a lot of stuff we just shared with you. If you need help implementing this stuff, we teach all this stuff in our coaching programs, thewarrioragent.com. We will help you implement and learn all these things and drastically increase the amount of time or speed the time up. it's going to take to actually put these into your business. Instead of three years, you can do it in three months.
Rachael Novak:
[48:38] We want you to work less and sell more.
Mike Novak:
[48:41] See you next week.