80. Can People With Compatible Orientations Stay Just Friends?

Can men and women (or any two people with compatible orientations) really be just friends… or is there always something under the surface?

In this episode, we explore the truth about platonic friendships—how attraction, sexual tension, and subconscious desire can shape who we choose to connect with. We explore why we’re often drawn to friends we find at least somewhat physically attractive.

If you’ve ever wondered whether compatible-orientation friendships can truly stay platonic—or what to do when feelings shift—this one’s going to hit.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

This is the Cliteral Truth.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

The podcast where we sit around naked and talk about sex, dating, and relationships.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Can people of the opposite orientation be platonic friends? Can they have a relationship without wanting sex or just wanting more? Wanting wanting a boyfriend, wanting the relationship to to become romantic?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yeah, this was the when Harry met Sally Dilemma. That's what I always call this. Because that was a big portion of that, a big c conversation in that movie. And his perspective was no, her sp her perspective was yes. And he he doubled down on eventually you you want to sleep together. So that's the that's the big question.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

So we've been kicking this around in terms of I think like that's that's just one story, it's just one movie, it's just one perspective. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

It's like one everybody's familiar with a lot of people are familiar with.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I think that it does kind of bring to to question is that always how women think, and is that always how men think? And I think the answer is no, because I think people are diverse and exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

And that's what that movie sort of did. It sort of broke it into this is how men are, this is how women are. Yeah, and that's that's basically what the a big part of the premise of that whole movie was about. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

And I I don't know if I like that. I don't either.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

It's what I'm saying. It's kind of it's a it's a fun movie, I love it, but it is stereotyping.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Right. But it it's I don't know what the right answers are though either. So I'm like, oh, you know, is that true? I don't really like that for men.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

That seems really objectifying and shallow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

So But we've been kicking it around here a little bit before turning before pushing record. And and in our own lived experience, I think we found that a little bit different. Like well, we talked a little bit about this, like the the whole concept of the fuckability scale when you see somebody. And right.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

We we are different though, in the sense that I I think we're miles away from people in terms of sex positivity, in terms of low levels of shame and and high levels of not only normalcy but celebration.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And I think that we sex Sex itself doesn't ha care like have attached to it a ton of weight or meaning or or you know what I mean? It's I have to save my fucks because they're so special to me and this and that. Like we're not stingy with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Like you've only got so many, and you use them up on the wrong people, then you you've lost them.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Exactly. So it's like that's a weird concept. It's like there's a ton of fucks to go around. Um, we are not stingy with our fucks, so we're like we look at someone and we're like, yeah, I'll fuck them.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

And it doesn't mean anything, it's just it's just a fuck. We're we're meeting a quota because we have needs, right? And so I think that that all of that could sound very foreign to people.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

I think so. And this is where, you know, uh in our evolution together doing this podcast and everything, and and how I kind of came into it with this hate for the way people couple up sex and intimacy. You know, this is as we've explored that a little bit more, and we realize, well, we've uncoupled that. You know, it's not that it doesn't happen, those don't coincide, but they coincide a whole lot less frequently than most people want to admit.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah. And so so that's what we're you're talking about here. You know, I've only got this limited number of fucks, they better be special, and so I gotta keep them special. We don't feel that way. So that whole question about object uh what men objectifying women, I mean, somebody could project that same thing onto you and you're a woman, you know? Because it because as we talked that through, you were kind of doing the same thing because of our stance. Me and other men do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yeah, because of our our s our stance and our on on sex.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

And how we view that and how it's very different than probably the rest of society views views that, that that sex has to mean something.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Right, and we have a whole episode on that uncoupling sex and intimacy.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And it can, but it doesn't always. It has the potential to be meaningful, but sex in it in itself is is a it doesn't, you know, it's just a physical activity between two people. Can be meaningful, but doesn't have to mean anything.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah, I think that we want to analyze this and answer this question based on Bridge One, the bridge of attraction, because I was like, this you could go in circles all day long about about yes or no and come up and the episode could end and you're like, well, I don't know. You know, good luck out there.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

And this is really cool because we've just been dissecting Bridge One again to get ready for our Seven Bridges webinar series. It's really fresh in our minds.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

And we, as we were going through that, we discovered some even more interesting nuances about it that we'll be teaching in the webinar series. But this is a to your point, this is a really good way to look at this, is based through the through the lens of the bridge number one.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

We're gonna try to answer this once and for all using the bridge of attraction. So here's the thing. If you take the first two steps, now we have to if you haven't listened to our seven bridges of a solid relationship episode, which is number three, or if you haven't listened to the subsequent episodes, we've done an episode on each bridge. So there is an attraction episode out there. It's fantastic. Go check it out. Uh ours are we've become even more resolved in and in our I guess uh our own material, right? If you will, again, as we've been putting on getting ready for a w a webinar series, uh we're we're even better versed in our own material now. But the episode still stands, yeah. Uh go check out the attraction episode. On the bridge of attraction, you take three steps. Well, you you need to take three steps to cross the bridge. So it's physical attraction, sexual attraction, and personal attraction. And so those are the three steps. So when I'm saying if you take the first two steps, physical, you're physically attracted to this person, you like looking at them, you like the way they move or the way they walk, you like their haircut. And step two, which is largely sexual chemistry, there's a vibe, there's a pull, there's there's some magnetism there, right? The answer is no.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

You're you're you can't be platonic friends without wanting something more, whether it's a fuck, a relationship, a kiss, a whatever.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Right? The the answer is no. So we can look at this objectively when we look at the bridge of attraction. If you take, if you're gonna take those first two steps, the answer's no. Now, as long as you don't take step two, you're good.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

You're good. But the chances of you taking step one, being physically attracted to this person, but there's no there's no sexual pull, there's no fire, there's no spark. Yeah, the chances of that are low. It is very likely that if you take step one, you're gonna take step two.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Not impossible for you not to, it's just less likely.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Right. I mean, and some of the things that would keep you from doing that is they're good to look at, and then they open their mouth and say something totally repellent that you're like, oh, yeah, well, no, I could never have sex with that person just based on their gets into personal attraction stuff. Sure. Or maybe it's something even as simple as they have this mousy, squeaky voice that's just gonna drive you crazy.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Well, but that's part of physical attraction. That's true. It is. That's true. The voice is part of it. You like hearing their voice.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

So anything physical like that, right? Or especially visual, but even physical, like pheromones and voice.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah, exactly. Is in there. Yeah, you might yeah, so it's not impossible. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

It's not impossible to take step one, and then that's as far as you're getting you're not taking that step two, but it's not likely.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Not likely.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Usually take that step two, and if you do, the answer to this question is no. Now, let's say, nah, okay, maybe you took step one, but you didn't take step two, or maybe you don't take step one or two, and you're just like, you know what? Yeah, I'm not physically attracted to this person, there's no poll for sex, but they're such a great person, they have so many wonderful qualities, they're funny, they're just someone I like hanging around. I mean, not fuckable to me, but I like you know, being around them or or whatever. And so I think that the answer in that case could be yes. The only now here's the question is I asked you and I analyzed it myself in in my own life, has that have I have I had that? Has that happened to me where there's been, you know, a guy that I didn't take the first two steps with, but I took step three with and we're just friends. We're we're platonic friends. Now, for me in my defense, we were in a religion where you didn't make friends of the opposite sex.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

And I I think it's even a touchy thing outside of religion. But definitely societally, yeah. Definitely in ours. I mean, we were even told don't don't you know offer someone a ride of the opposite sex.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

It was pretty well and to accompl to to clarify that that's basically because either you or they are married or both. That's the sort of thing. Right. The assumption is that that you're you're you're tied matrimonially or some other way.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

If you're not, they very much encourage you to get together and marry as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

It's assuming that yes, you're all older adults or you're you're all married. I mean, in in by the age of, I don't know, god, twenty-five. You you don't have friends of the opposite sex. Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

Really?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

You might have couples friends, but you don't have a friend of the opposite sex. And so for me, I have only been out of that like uh just shy of four years, so I haven't had really the opportunity, because I I then wasn't dating for a lot of that, and then and then I was, and so my opportunity for making just platonic male friends wasn't very good. I I don't feel like I've I've had that because I got out of that and you started and then I you know when I started dating.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

It's with just with that intention. It's with that intention of meeting people you're attracted to.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Exactly. Yeah, so the the intention is not to meet platonic friends, so I'm like, oh, how and where would that happen? And if it happens at the workplace, like I don't work with other people. I work, I'm I'm an independent contractor, so to say. Right. So I I I just don't feel like I even had the opportunity. I don't feel like I can answer this question for myself because I don't feel like I had really the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

The friend group that I do have was kind of handed to me through a Facebook group, and so I do have male friends, but they were kind of handed to me. I didn't didn't happen organically.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Right. So it wasn't like you see that person across the room, you have that potential physical attraction to them, so you're like, oh, I just want to go talk to that person. First of all, I don't know if it's going anywhere. But these friends, they were just in a group already. You get thrown into the group, they get thrown into you.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

It's a collective thing. So it's like even if I wouldn't have pursued some of these people in the group myself, we're all in the group, right? We're all friends, you know, kind of thing. It was built in.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

So in those scenarios it where it is comes kind of built in like that, I think that's a higher likelihood that you could be platonic friends with people because you go to you you make it to step three. Personal attraction. You you weren't looking at them from a physical or a sexual attraction level. And you might not have chosen them as a personal friend from across the room because of the concept you talked to to me about earlier that we're you know, we typically become friends with people we're somewhat attracted to physically.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Right. No matter your orientation, whether you're straight and you're girl, girl to girl, or straight guy to guy, or you you don't I don't know. I I think that there's some science behind you're less likely to be friends with someone that you are almost like turned off by physically.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Well, I mean there's lots of studies for other reasons, like you're more open to a person that you're you're physically attracted to. The people who are physically attractive get more jobs, they get more opportunities, you know. So I think just any other human is just more open because it's like, oh, this is inviting for some reason. You know, maybe it's a facial expression or maybe it's the way they look or whatever, but there's something physically attracted to them.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Okay, so as I said, I didn't have a lot of opportunity, in my mind, at least.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Maybe that's a cop out, I don't know. But you had more years of b between, I guess, what, like leaving religion and you had more years of dating, potentially like I did. And in one and and in those years you you got married even and had that. So you had more years before us, right, is what I'm referring to.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

And also you had work like network in in your work. Like I'm an I'm an independent contractor, I work alone, you don't, you've been on teams, you've been manager, managing people, you you've had some a lot of relationships form from coworker. So my question is, what's been your experience? Have you experienced wanting to be friends with someone just that step three? No interest, or you know, e even if it's available, you you wouldn't want more with someone.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yeah, and I think I do have female friends like that that are from those times in my life. I mean, I guess this is the other thing. How deep a friendship is that? Some are pretty good, and some of them are pretty you know, it's not like we do something every week or anything like that, but we're still we're still friends.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

It's like, well, here's the thing, like, we need to define like the difference between friends and acquaintances because it's like, yeah, I'm acquainted with them. We're friendly.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

That's not friends to me. Friends to me would be like we regularly talk, we know what's going on in each other's lives. If possible, we get together if we're local, uh, every so often. We send each other funny memes, we text back and forth. Like that would be a friend to me. Like, anyone is friendly. And so you have to decide what's an acquaintance, someone I know that I'm friendly with, yeah, and what who's really a friend.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

So I have a lot, I have about a full spectrum of of women in my life, honestly. And yeah, meeting them as you know, maybe they were work associates or church associates or wherever I met them. I think it is possible to take step three, get personally attracted to someone. Uh-huh. And but I think context matters too. In those situations, the context was always, well, we work together, kind of like your friend group. We're thrown into each into each other.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

So it's kind of that sort of thing. And you get to know somebody more, and it's like, oh, yeah, I like them as a person. So I think you can take step three if you have that. And I think I've had that. But context can matter too in another way. The context can also matter with are you somebody who's single and looking to date people? Because if you're thrown into that same context of we're just co-workers, but your individual context is, yeah, I'm dating. So everybody's a possibility is available today.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

You're saying it changes when people are unavailable or not a possibility, but it doesn't change in your mind.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

True.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

In your mind, you still have to say, Am I physically attracted to that person? Yes or no.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Would I fuck that person or want more from them, or possibly want a relationship with them if they were available. Right. And and so you can't.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

So we do throw our constraints on ourselves because of those ethical issues.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

We're taking the context at we're saying we're saying without the barriers, what's the answer? I want to know without the barriers, what's the answer to get down to the psychology of it.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

So without the barriers, those are the question of the yeah, those coworkers, without the barriers, would you want more? Would you pursue more?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

That's yeah, I th I think for some that I I could see myself doing that if I, you know, if that if with the barriers were out of the way. But not always. So there's this whole scale of all those steps on the attraction bridge. The personal attraction, that might have a cyclical effect. It's like, ah, I I'm learning more about this person. I really like them as a person. But then you also come across people who are like, well, now that I'm getting more of a bigger dose of this person, maybe I'm not so personally attracted to them. And so that could affect Okay. That could affect in reverse how I'm like, yeah, I'm not physically or sexually attracted to them. But it could also work in reverse the other way. Maybe I could entertain well, I'm getting I'm confusing myself on this. It really comes down to honestly, do you find this person physically and sexually attractive?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

No, it it does because if you find them personally attractive, the the real test is that you don't find them physically or sexually attractive, you don't want to fuck them, you don't want more than friendship, just platonic friendship, and that like personal attraction or friendship that you want is strong enough that you pursue and initiate in this relationship. And I do think that that's rare.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

It is rare. It is rare, but I do have I do have examples of that where I can do that. Yeah. But it's yeah, I think it's rare. And again, I think it goes back to what we said earlier that the friends we choose, we probably have some sort of physical attraction. On some level, we have some sort of physical attraction. We have some sort of physical attraction, you almost have sexual attraction that either is there and you're fighting it, or it builds. And that sexual tension builds, and so then it it becomes that's why these steps are in that order on bridge one, too. You gotta start with physical, and then the sexual might be there, and and then it takes a while to get to personal attraction, because you gotta get to know them. I think if you've got enough that you've chosen this person as a friend, then you there's a good chance you're gonna have sexual attraction. Whether you actually do anything with it or not, it's game over as to whether you want to or not. Because if you have physical and sexual attraction, you would give If you could. If you could.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

But it's not impossible. It's not impossible to be platonic friends. Just rare.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Just rare. Okay. So then uh you get to know them, maybe they become friends. But there's always that physical attraction in the world. Well yeah, because even running in the back.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Even though my friend group was built in, as soon as it was formed, you still you still consider things like, is this person I mean, we were we were talking about how we it's just for fun, it's not, you know, it's just how our minds work, but we're we're looking at everyone out there, whether it was back in the church days and we're looking at the congregation and looking around, being like, huh, how fuckable is that person? Right. Or, you know, we're considering like or if they're married, we're like, I wonder what their sex is like. Or, you know, i is is I know that guy's like quiet, you know. I really I wonder how he is in the bedroom. Is he is he kinky or is he boring? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

And we're we're just wanders.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

It's just the way that my mind, I have a sexual sense of humor. I I have sex on the brain, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

No, I think it's part of being human, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Or or healthy human.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

And it's not like I'm sitting there sexualizing uh or or over sexualizing people and and only considering them as sexual creatures. I think that there's a difference between over-sexualization and sexualization, and I think sexualization is very normal. I think it can slide into a problematic area where you're just sexualizing someone, and that's that's the overboard place. But I think that just having these random human thoughts about people and their and their sexuality is is very normal. I do. I think it's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah. Yes, biological that come up, you know. Not that we're gonna necessarily act on any of that stuff. Right. But it just it's musing.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

We start becoming curious as kids, and then as adolescents for sure, a lot of most of that, you know, I think we keep inside.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

To your point, when the friend grouped e even though it didn't group organically and I and it wasn't for the purpose, you know, it wasn't on a dating app or you know, it wasn't for the purpose of dating, you still size everybody up and and decide, huh, do I w because I was single when I got into that friend group. Do I want to go for this person? Do I w what do I think of that person?

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Or you know, and so it's a possibility. You were in dating mode at that time, even so. And so everybody's a possibility when you're single like that. You know

SPEAKER_01 22:00

uh you know the single or non-monogamous the people who are right the people who are monogamous are kind of off the table but right but there's always a possibility that they break up there's always the a a possibility or maybe their marriage is open or maybe you you never know what is gonna happen and so you're sizing people up anyway but I just think like it'd be really interesting if we had a couple of guests that were different than us. Yeah we're less we're more stingy with their fucks right for whatever reason or maybe assigned more meaning to fucks.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Uh even with strangers even with people who you know you and I I mean there's a lot of meaning behind our sex now because we've crossed the bridge of intimacy. Right. And not to say that our sex is always intimate. That's not what I meant.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

But we're we're best fri we we're BFFs and I I'm not I mean but you've got people out there that assign a lot of meaning to sex no matter who it is. It could be a stranger or you know and usually those are the people who are less likely to have sex with a stranger. But you get my my point.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Well and so this makes me think too of of something else with regard to if you cross or you take steps one and two on the bridge of attraction with somebody who you're friends with and then somebody who does that and then and then they try and tell me or maybe they're legitimately saying Yeah I don't I still don't want to have sex with them. I'm sexually attracted. Well my question is why do you not want to have sex with them if you're physically and sexually attracted I didn't you know this isn't something we kind of prepared for before the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

No the number one reason though is that they don't want to ruin the friendship. Taylor Yeah there you go exactly hey oh my god such a good song Taylor Swift ruin the friendship they that that's going to be the number one answer so that's the number one reason why they don't yeah but want to is a whole different story in my mind. Oh yeah I I think like I said I don't think it's very likely that the answer is going to be yes but if the answer to this question is going to be yes it's that somehow someone didn't take step one or two and values just humans enough because I think it is human nature to have a harder time valuing the other whatever that is uh by sex, gender, race, what have you right? We get into a real identity like snobbiness or whatever you can call it when we're like, oh I'm really comfortable around everything that's just like me. Right? Like we can see this in the world. It's not hard to see that this is human nature. We have to defy human nature and get into a place of call it empathy where we can even though we are not experiencing that other thing we can feel for it we understand it we can step into the shoes and therefore we can value it. So if it's someone of the opposite sex or the opposite orientation or gender you can see value in that and not be such a shallow ass and just to just be like oh I see how useful that is I see how useful that gender is I see how useful that person of the opposite orientation is I see how useful that person of the opposite sex is that that that's a a low bar. That's a real low bar. And so I would I hope that there's more yeses out there of we can develop real friendships and real relationships that are dynamic, special, etc with the opposite orientation and and take that step three even if we're not taking step one or two. I'd like to see more of that. Yeah in this podcast we often use the terms women and men when discussing relationships and sexual dynamics. However we want to acknowledge that not all women have vulvas and not all vulva owners identify as women. Similarly not all men have penises and not all penis owners identify as men. Our podcast welcomes individuals and couples of all orientations and identities. We aim for inclusivity but fully acknowledge that our attempts will never be perfect. We are learning and adopting new language as humankind and our world evolves.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Hey just a heads up we're not therapists or doctors but we do coach people on sex, dating and relationships based on our own experiences, research and the wild stories we've heard and lived along the way what we share is for your inspiration and education but it's not a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice. If you're facing a serious issue please seek out the right kind of support. In the meantime keep listening stay curious and let's keep the conversations going