86. The Ownership of Women Pt 2: Cringey Marriage Edition

In this episode, we dive headfirst into the surprisingly dark and deeply patriarchal origins of modern marriage traditions. From why the “best man” was originally armed, to the real purpose of bridesmaids, to the uncomfortable history behind asking a father for his daughter’s hand in marriage—we unpack the cringey, controlling roots hidden beneath customs many people still celebrate today. 

This episode challenges outdated ideas about love, ownership, gender roles, autonomy, and partnership while exploring what conscious, modern relationships can look like instead. If you’re into relationship psychology, feminism, marriage history, sex-positive conversations, and questioning social conditioning, this one’s for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

This is the literal truth.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We talk about sex, dating, and relationships. I came across a post on Instagram by a creator, The Ven The Venus Path. The Patriarchal Origins of Marriage Rituals. And this was really interesting because it kind of went right along an episode that we've done, episode 70, called The Ownership of Women. So this is a part two to that episode 70 that we did. And this included some more uh aspects of the ownership of women than we than we had in that part one in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

This one's a little more in your face, it felt like this post was anyway. I mean some of the concepts we're gonna talk about are pretty well they're just very uh very disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Very disturbing. Very disturbing. So um put your your big boy and big girl panties on for this one. But no, I think that uh this was more specified to marriage, I guess I'd say like wedding traditions.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, mostly wedding, but marriage slash wedding, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

We're going to recap episode 70, part one, really quick. We talked about four things in that episode, and two of those things overlapped with this post. Right. So there's kind of a Venn diagram happening here where we had a couple of things that we talked about, and then there's a couple that is that are included in this post as well. But it's a it's a good job by this uh creator. So let's review a little bit uh in episode 70, the ownership of women, the four things that we included, the two that are not also overlapping into this post. We talked, we spent quite a bit of time talking about this whole polishing gun thing, the father uh threatening daughters, prospects, boyfriends, dates, even or or even the joke, you know, that's not funny.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, it's it's that's the thing. I I mean rem I remember years ago before I really looked at this critically, thinking, oh funny stuff, you know, it's it's a joke. But it's it's not really a joke. It's a it's a not funny joke for one thing. And it's meant with some seriousness, I think, underlying. See that in memes and you see it in posts, and it's it's kind of joking, but it's kind of it's still it still reflects the ownership of women, and I just hate that.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah, that's what it represents because uh we're gonna read some of this historical how things were, and you can totally see where this comes from, and it's d quite disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So it's not funny, but we we spent quite a bit of time talking about that aspect of one of the traces of the ownership of women is father's threatening daughters' prospects. Yeah. Another thing that we talked about in that episode is when, you know, there's an engagement, asking the father's permission to marry his daughter.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

It's another trace of ownership because of I mean, it was property ownership back in the day. It was a you likened it to exchanging or uh, you know, the title of a car, yeah. And uh signing over.

unknown 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

And that's kind of what this is. Like why would he need his permission then if he didn't this wasn't his property and he didn't own her. And back in the day he did.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

And then it was a signing over, and we're gonna talk about, you know, get into more along those lines in terms of changing name and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And this reminds me, we didn't plan for this, but this reminds me, I started listening to the book Marriage of History, and it talks about how marriage through the ages has been less about love and more about a business deal. And so some of this comes from that too, though. That's not what's done anymore. You know, there's this sort of dowry thing that that was offered for the for the bride and all of that stuff, you know, and and and a lot of times it was it was the rich and influential and famous who were trying to bring families together, and so these were a lot of times arranged marriages anyway. Right, political alliances, yeah, political alliances, business deals, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

And so these are kind of remnants of that, but they have really no purpose other than any more than this perpetuation and reinforcement of the ownership of women.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I was gonna ask you, I don't remember what we talked about in when you got married. Did this did this happen in in your relationship? Was your hand asked for in marriage?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

I don't I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I don't know for sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Because I remember talking about how it was in my first marriage, because I've been married twice. My first marriage, that was the expectation that my fiance who became my wife, was that you'll go ask my dad. But I must I don't know where that was if it was like her tradition, if that was his expectation. I never asked it because back then, 35 years ago or whenever that was, it was I guess not as frowned upon or cringy or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I don't know, but I mean It was still a thing when I got married in the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

I just don't know if that's something my ex would have done.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Right. I got married in the late 80s, 89. And so it was a you know, we're going on 40 years.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Probably still a thing. What I don't understand is girls that want that. I don't get that at all. And and I yeah, and I I don't why would you I don't think they understand it. I think they want their dad's approval. What about their mom, though, first of all? Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Like I think they want she's owned too, so yeah, she's property as well. She's also properly. So I'm like, I think You don't ask your lawn if you if it wants to get mowed.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

They want their parents' approval, and maybe that's their way of it's so semantic, it's stupid. Because uh, what if dad said no? Right. You just gave all your autonomy and authority, personal authority away to your fucking dad.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

For the girl in there, the woman in there, it's like, well, that backfired on me.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yeah, so it's like, why don't you just ask your parents? Yes, hey, do you approve of Bob? Or what like why do we go through this stupid ritual, this stupid tradition that has really cringy, disturbing origins?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Like I and the other thing in this Marriage of History book is it talks about a lot about marriage was what we talked about, but also the acquiring of in-laws. That was something of value. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Here's the funny thing about it, my ex was kind of estranged from his family.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Due to I I don't know if it was, you know, joining my religion or not, but but the point is I never had any in-laws.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Because he was estranged from his his parents, and I never met him. I never was around like zero in-laws. And honestly, yeah, that was it was great. It was over the century, yeah. And I think that a lot of people would be jealous of that situation.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Right now, that's the thing, you know. That that whole Trump has shifted to eye rolling when you talk about the in-laws for a lot of people, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Some people love them, but some people do not. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

And there's so many jokes about us, so many stand-up routines about the father-in-law or the mother-in-law. The whole movie franchise based on that. Right. But over the centuries, from what I'm learning in this book, is you wanted in-laws and you wanted quality in-laws, and so I can also see that this is like, well, I'm I'm solidifying this relationship with my father-in-law or whatever, you know. But anyway, either way.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

So that that's one of the traces that we talked about. Now, here's one that overlaps: giving away the bride. Okay, this is the property transfer. This is something that actually something that actually happens at the wedding, giving away the bride. I'm going to read the text from this post.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

This ritual comes from the time when daughters were considered property, first owned by their fathers and then transferred to their husbands. To give away the bride and rename her after the husband symbolized the financial and social transaction and transfer of property. Women had no legal autonomy and could not survive without a male keeper. The practice of male ownership of female bodies through ritual marriage was widespread throughout many cultures.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Okay. So yeah, yeah, we we do talk about how cringy that is. You you see it in every movie, you see it in most weddings, you know. And the cringiest thing is that women don't know where any of this comes from, and they these things have been romanticized. Romanticized, yes. For oh, I can't wait till my dad walks me down the aisle. They have no idea what that means, what they're talking about, where that came from. Right. And and that they're still playing into those traces today by carrying out those traditions.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's so interesting, too. Well, we'll talk about it. Made me think of something else, but that's coming up.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

So we're gonna move on to the best man.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah, let's read that one too. This one just made me like, oh my gosh. I had no idea. So talk about romanticizing this whole wedding transaction. That I had no idea about the best man. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

In ancient Rome and medieval Europe, marriage by capture was a common practice, where women were kidnapped and considered to be the property of the man who defiled her first. The best man was selected for his strength to ensure the bride didn't escape or was stolen by another man. The best man was chosen for his ability to fight off rival suitors or assist in bride kidnapping if necessary.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

That is so crazy.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

So crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

And and as you're reading that, there's a movie, and I don't know what it is, but there's a movie where this concept, it's like, I don't know if it was Robin Hood or something like that, but there's a movie from the back in the 90s or something. I remember this happening, and now it makes sense to me. You know.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Well, look at like a movie that's set.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Where they were trying to get this bride, actually, there was a marriage that was gonna quote unquote be happening for love, and then the villain comes in and goes to kidnap the the the bride to defile her first, so then it's like that now she's his, you know. I don't remember how it played out.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, but you can see this even you don't need to go as far back as medieval, you know, times or Rome. Right. Look at the Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. That movie is all about these men kidnapping these women for brides.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Oh, okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

So and that's probably supposed to be sent in the 1800s, like late 1800s or something.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

But so we're talking kidnapping and rape. Right to establish to establish the a marriage.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yeah, it's if people knew these origins, yeah I I would really love to deeply talk to people, but that's the thing. It's all romanticized. We have no idea why we do these traditions. Most people don't until they actually study this shit. But I uh yeah, I think that what cat what catches me is the word defiled because I'm like, oh wow, like that's not how I think like think of sex. I'm not being defiled, you know, but but it's a it's a word in place of rape.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, it's a word in place of rape.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

It's it's a word that's put in there, um it's just a terrible word. Like it's so disturbing.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, well, so when you think about it, this these are kind of out of order from what we talked about it because the the giving giving away the bride, that's after, if it was a scenario like this, that's after the kidnapping and the defiling has happened.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

And now now, okay, well, I've got to maybe reluctantly give you the title to my daughter, you know. It's i uh and so you wonder in some of those scenarios, if it was this time, it's like maybe there was some other arrangement being made, and then somebody swoops in and you know, your mind goes everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

We're just talking about what the job of the best man was. Was to help what is the best man. So if you had a best man at your wedding, helping the kidnapping, helping the kidnapping man, or he's supposed to fight off other guys so you can defile her f rape her first. Right. It's awful.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

And I told you when we read this, back then, I mean, I would disguise as a boy.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I that like it is a liability walking out in 2026 as a woman. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Think of yourself walking, just being around, you could be kidnapped and raped at any moment, like and you can now too, but this was in order to get married, like that you know but how horrifying that this whole action takes place, and then it's like, oh, this is who I'm gonna now be spending my life with.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Right, you marry your abuser.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

It's wild. So I I can't imagine living in that time, I can barely fucking imagine living in our time. So I'm like, yeah, I would cut my hair, disguised as a boy, you know, and and keep myself safe. Like, no questions.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

The bridesmaids.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

But then if you did that, if you did that now to be trans, you'd be trans and then they wouldn't let you.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Then there are anti-trans laws, so what would I do about it? It's so confusing. Oh man. Okay. The bridesmaid. Bridesmaids dressed like the bride to confuse potential kidnappers.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

So there's your other option. You don't have to dress like a boy, you just gotta get girlfriends, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

A bunch of girlfriends to to clone like you are.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

In ancient Rome and medieval Europe, marriage by abduction was common. Bridesmaids served as decoys to protect the bride from being taken before the ceremony.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

I wonder if this were this is where like trends in style come from, where we're all gonna dress alike, we're all gonna adopt this so that we can be a decoy and and nobody knows who we are.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Well, I mean, that's probably why the bridesmaids' dresses are all the same.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

And now I'm like so cringed out. And then I think in, you know, in my best friend's wedding, that where Cameron Diaz tells Julia Roberts, like, oh no, your dress had to be different. I know that about you. You know, like when she's wearing a purple dress and all the other bridesmaids are in pink or something. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, if we were carrying Traditionally, bridesmaids' dresses are all exactly the same.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Right, but if you were really carrying this tradition of the decoy thing, they would all be wearing wedding dresses.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

That's true. So I I I don't know. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Or at least the bride would wear the same dress.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

I don't want to know all the details. This is sufficient for me, and I'm I just think we're blowing minds cringed and grossed out.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Exactly. It's it blew my mind when we were.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yeah. Smashing the cake.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I've always thought this was cringy.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, well, it gets worse.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

It gets worse, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

This tradition evolved from a Roman practice where the groom broke bread over the bride's head as a hazing ritual to assert dominance and symbolize her submission. In the Venus lineage, cakes were often made and offered to the goddess of love and fertility. As patriarchal marriage took hold in ancient Rome, the groom would crumble small cakes over the bride's head to symbolize her fertility as taken.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Like who I I just like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Well, and that now it's devolved into we're gonna shove cake in each other's faces. So even though the bride does it to the groom now. Right. But I just have always thought that's so dis disrespectful that it's just tacky. We didn't do it at my wedding. Is what it is. It is.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

I think it's it's tacky.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

But but I know what it signifies makes it even worse.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

I'm not sure that my ex and I even ate, took a bite of the cake or it or did that whole thing. I was not unbeknownst to me, why not? I wasn't into the traditional wedding shit, honestly. And we got you know married so fast, like I I was not that girl that was dreaming of or planning my wedding at all. In fact, I used all of my sister's stuff that she, you know, the colors and the the table coverings and what whatever.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Um I used all of her stuff basically for my wedding because I did not fucking care, you know? Like being part of our religion, I knew I had to get married, but I wasn't that girl, you know, cutting photos out of magazines for my wedding. And so I don't think I threw a bouquet, I don't think I did a garter, I don't think we cut took bites of cake. I don't remember doing any of that shit.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Well, besides you're more of a protein than a carb girl, so it would have been a steak or a chicken leg would be better.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Uh, since when is cake carbs?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Cake is carbs, it's straight carbs.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Cake is straight up like fat candy, like well I know, but that candy is carbs. Carbs can be healthy, like you can have complex carbs.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

These are simple carbs.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

All right, well, when I think of carbs, I think of rice and potatoes and you know, being a lifter, but it yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

We the majority of carbs that people intake who aren't lifters. Pancakes. Carb cakes, pancakes. They're simple carbs. They're not complex carbs. Alright.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

The honeymoon.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Originally, the honeymoon was a period when the groom hid the bride from her family after abducting her. In medieval Europe, men would before the marriage. Oh, we don't know that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

In medieval Europe, men would steal women from neighboring villages and hide them until pregnancy solidified the union. Thank you. I would say thank God, but you know, I'm an atheist. Thank Bob or Karen or whoever, that like a pregnancy does not solidify shit these days, despite what you know our government is trying to just wow.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Well, and I mean it's got it's actually shifted the other way over the past 50 years or so or more, where it's like men, if there's a pregnancy, a lot of men run.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

We won't get into our positions on you know, women's rights, abortion, etc. whatever, but just wow. Okay. Yeah. The term honeymoon comes from the practice of drinking mead, which is honey wine, for moon cycle after marriage.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Hey. This is important this is this is deep shit.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yes, it is. Go back.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

The term honeymoon, okay, it's because you're like, yeah, honey and moon, what are we doing here? Comes from the practice of drinking mead, honey wine, for moon cycle after marriage to encourage impregnation.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

So that was all.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

I mean, fuck, they knew more about the menstrual cycle back then than we do now. Well, that's with like, oh yeah, the moon cycle, and and women are cyclical, like the moon, like like a lot of things on our own.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

But to think that the honey wine is gonna induce that, it's like that's a lot of superstition there. But yeah, but yeah, you're right. They did they did pay more attention to it than when we we look at it with shame now. But yeah. I was gonna ask if you ever had mead.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Have I had mead? No, I can't say that I have.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

There's a place here in Utah that makes mead.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

So honey wine, huh? So it's alcoholic?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

It's pretty good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

I'm down.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Alright. I went to the place and did a tasting.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

I'll bet it's good.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Sleep like up in near Audience.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Is it as sweet as honey though? Because that is pretty good. That'd be pretty pretty fucking sweet wine. It's pretty sweet, but it's it's good. It's different. But with the alcohol in there, I mean, maybe it's like Smirnoff, you know, it's hella sweet, but it's alcoholic, so you can't.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

But everything this this, I guess, winery or meat makery makes is based off of honey, which is rather than sugar or something, you know. So it's interesting. Well, try it out. You can get it at the liquor stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Okay, the last trace of the ownership of women that we're gonna talk about, and we did hit on this in our episode part one, is changing her name. Now we specifically talked about her changing her last name from her father's to her husband's, uh, which I did and will never do again. And went back to my maiden, which unfortunately is still a patriarchal name, but it was it's better than the alternative of changing your name to a husband's, unless you are going to just make up a last name of your own.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Which is uh an option. Okay, so we talked about actually changing the surname, but this post is also talking about the whole Miss, Ms. and Mrs.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah. This is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Which is also uh just like women changing everything around men who don't have to change anything.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Unlike Mr., which stays the same regardless of marriage, misses and Ms. indicate that a woman's identity is defined by her relationship to men and sex. Miss traditionally indicated purity and virginity and signaled that she was not yet claimed as property or sexually defiled. Wow. I would have definitely been going by Ms. back then. Like fuck that shit. Like I do not pride myself on purity culture. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Uh what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I am autonomous. That is what's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Oh, that's what I like. That's what I like so much about you.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Claimed women had their name removed completely and were addressed with a prefix to their husband's name, as in Mrs. John Smith.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah. So they don't even have to be a good one. So it gave them any any identity at all.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

It got even worse. Not only do they they go from Miss or Ms. to Mrs., and men never go from anything but Mr.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

To his whole name and her name's just wiped out.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Like She's just part of the assets.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And you see this on on well, I mean, we're we're older, so you saw this, see this in mail. You know, if you get like a fancy wedding invitation from someone, uh again, weddings, just a breeding ground for horrific traces of the ownership of women. But you get an envelope in the mail that would say yeah, would say Mr. and Mrs. Dale Smith or whatever would like to announce the marriage of their daughter, you know, whatever. And she's just lumped in with him.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Their daughter, and it gives her name, but hey, you better catch that right really quickly because she's gonna lose her identity.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

That's right. So yeah, this included more even more disturbing traces of the ownership of women, so we wanted to have a part two episode. But a lot of these are based around weddings, and I don't think you'll go to another wedding, again, not thinking about these cringy and disturbing origins.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Weddings will never look the same to you after the last episode. Yeah, I hope not.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

I hope not.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And I hope for any of you who are considering getting married, and you know, I'd like to five why that.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

We'd like to coach you. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Um, but if you are, uh yeah, how many of these traditions will you maintain after hearing all of this?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Well, you can't escape some of them. True. I mean, uh you just you it can let's go down the list, can we? Let's see. Okay, your father didn't necessarily have to threaten your uh prospects if you're a a daughter.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Uh and but if you're the guy, did her father ever act, you know, threatening toward you or make a funny joke about that. Uh you yeah, you don't have to ask father's permission and you can dispense with that.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Giving away the bride, yep, you don't have to do that. Uh you don't have to have a best man, you don't have to have bridesmaids. You do not need to smash the cake.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

In my first marriage, we didn't have any of that.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Most people do want to go on a honeymoon because it's it's a little different than just uh marital rape these days. Uh usually. No guarantees, because I don't know who you're marrying. I can't speak for that.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

But that's so go back and listen to the Seven Bridges episodes and make sure you're not rushing.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I understand if you would like to go on a traditional honeymoon.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Uh changing your name. You do not need to do that anymore. Um, unfortunately, you probably you know, do you ever have to use misses? I don't think that one's I mean, yeah, technically you can't escape that one, but it's like, when have I ever wrote misses before my, you know, I'm not a teacher, never. So yeah, you can escape all of these things and create some kind of different, if you, you know, do believe in the, you know, signing a legal document uh to the government and wedlocking yourself into marriage, um you d you don't have to participate in all the disturbing traditions. But I mean personally have vowed never to marry again just on principle, because even not participating in the like you know, and there and then there's even bribes that don't wear white dresses. There's there's a lot of things you can do and stuff to go against the grain.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

But I I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

But the root of my thing is is just marriage is a patriarchal establishment and it was created it was, you know, it came about for the purpose of uh, you know, property owned women were for the purpose of exchanging uh of property.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

I'm for the autonomy of all people, and it tends to undermine that autonomy, at least of women. To some extent, it undermines everybody's autonomy if you are so glued together that you don't have you know any sort of independence or autonomy.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Codependency is what you're talking about. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah. We're gonna But it's it's particularly hard on on women.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Well, and then we're not going to get into the 40 to 50 percent divorce rate, and then that everybody gets fucked when divorce happens, really.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And that was and we've talked about this before. That's my main, my main objection, or has been. I have a lot more objections to marriage now. Right. But that was my main objection was nobody wins in that.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Nobody wins in that, like 40 to 50 percent. So your odds aren't great, right? And then what are you out if you just don't get married and and have a uh you know a life a partner?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah, all that.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

I don't know what it where where's the pros and cons? What what's the benefit here?

unknown 29:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

In this podcast, we often use the terms women and men when discussing relationships and sexual dynamics. However, we want to acknowledge that not all women have vulvas, and not all vulva owners identify as women. Similarly, not all men have penises, and not all penis owners identify as men. Our podcast welcomes individuals and couples of all orientations and identities. We aim for inclusivity, but fully acknowledge that our attempts will never be perfect. We are learning and adopting new language as humankind and our world people.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Hey, just a heads up. We're not therapists or doctors, but we do coach people on sex, dating, and relationships based on our own experiences, research, and the wild stories we've heard and lived along the way. Well, we cares for your inspiration and education, but it's not a substitute for professional medical and mental health advice. If you're facing a serious issue, please take out the right kind of support. In the meantime, keep listening, stay curious, and let's keep the conversations going.