101. Separating Sex and Nudity

Nudity isn’t inherently sexual, and treating it that way is a problem.

In this episode, we break down the difference between nudity and sexuality, why so many of us automatically sexualize naked bodies, and how culture, context, attraction, jealousy, and shame shape what we see.

Can you experience or observe nudity, read the context accurately, and let the people involved—not your automatic reaction—determine whether it’s sexual?

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:12

This is the Cliteral Truth.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

The podcast where we sit around naked and talk about sex, dating, and relationships. So this is probably gonna be an interesting episode to listen to for a lot of people. And I think that a lot of people might listen to this and be like, oh, I'm not sure that's something I want to change about myself, or I'm not sure that's something I need to change, or might listen to it and go, oh my god, that's me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Um Yeah, or it's something I never thought about before.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

You know.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

I I think it's important enough to have a podcast episode about it, and I think that it's something that really changed for me. This was a big part of my religious deconstruction, and it's been really healing. It has become an important part of my life that I didn't think was necessary or would per se. Uh and we're talking about nudity here, specifically, is what I'm talking about. Outside of the bedroom or outside of a sexual context, nudity has be has become sexualized. Well, for no, for me in my life after deconstructing enmeshment of nudity and sex, it's become a pleasant part of my life. And so I think that same here. This came about after d definitely after leaving religion, you know, getting outside of that bubble socially, making other friends, making friends at all, really, because I just really struggled to do that while in religion.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

And we should say, and I don't know if you already did, but we're talking about separating sex and nudity.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Experiencing nudity outside of sexual context and how human that can be. Right. How grounding it can be, how humanizing it can be rather than sexual.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

How how it can make you feel the innocence of humanity and the innocence of childhood, really. Because we learn this. We learn to conflate nudity with sex. Oh yeah. And it is just not necessary. I think there's these things where you have like Venn diagram, you have circles, and so many times in society we totally conflate things that have some overlap but do not need to be completely eclipsed and conflated. So and this is one of those, sex and nudity. And so, like I said, we have friends now that where we can experience nudity in certain settings, it's not sexual.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

And that's been really wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

You mentioned about deconstructing religion. For me, it's that deconstructing religion and also being a white man, deconstructing patriarchy. That's another portion of that for me. I think lay that adds another layer to the whole thing. Because the patriarchy, with patriarchy, comes possession of other people. Comes ownership of Yeah. And and I think men are gonna tend to struggle with that more than women do. So it's one of those things that it was like a blind spot to me. I didn't think I had that, and then I until I realized I did.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

And it had to be pointed out to me, my privilege and my my possessiveness and all of that stuff. And then it became extraordinarily distasteful. And I'm still I still find myself getting caught up in that sometimes and getting a little triggered from time to time. So I'm still working on it. It's a work in progress.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

And you're referring to when your partner is nude, not just in front of you, in front of other people or semi, semi-nude even, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I think I've largely deconstructed that, but I mean it's it's ingrained for 55 years.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

It could be something, and and this is something that it's something to be aware of. It's not necessarily like we're saying, hey, this needs to be perfect, or you're never going to be triggered again, or you're never gonna think about this again. You probably will.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

It's something to be aware of and to work through. But I think there's another side of patriarchy that I thought you were referring to, and that and we're gonna get to that, and that is I own everybody. Everyone I see, I have privilege to. I am I am privy to you because you are naked in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

That kind of almost predatory kind of Yeah, no, I hadn't thought of that, but that's a that's a key element.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

And and we're gonna get to that, like I said.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

So I want to talk about a few things here. When someone struggles separating nudity and sex, it's because they've consistently treated the naked body as an invitation, a sexual act or evidence of sexual intent, regardless of the context. Got a few bullets here I want to go through just on on this concept. Some signs that people can't separate sex from nudity. That's what I want to talk about a little bit here. Number one, they assume nudity means someone wants sexual attention.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Someone is wearing something comfortable because it's hot outside, or they're wearing something comfortable anyway, and it shows a lot of skin. Like I said, there's overlap. They could want something sexual to happen, but they could not.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

And it doesn't automatically mean anything sexual.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

And so I think some people jump, typically heterosexual men will jump to that. So this is where the patriarchy thing comes into play, too. I think they automatically, not everyone. Men are kind of prone to assigning some sexual meaning to nudity, and there's not that. So you have to look at the context, like what you're saying. If you're just walking down the street. That's not a sexual context. It's never a sexual context. Right. It just isn't.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Nobody's intending that imitation or consent or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Even the person wearing that walking down the street isn't saying, Hey, I want to have sex here on the sidewalk. Right. I I would be very surprised if anybody's thinking that.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Right. Or I decided to walk down the street in this outfit so that you would follow me back to my hotel and we could fuck. Uh when does that ever that's never going to happen?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah. There are easier ways to go about that, for one thing. So I mean, I guess maybe it's somebody's fantasy or kink, but whatever. Okay, next bullet. Um they become sexually possessive when a partner is seen naked even in non-sexual settings. So that goes back to that patriarchy thing, too, that the layer that I said. Right. So they become sexually possessive when a partner is seen naked, even in non-sexual settings. That was a thing for me to overcome when that when that first started happening in my life, even before you and I got together. We'd be in those situations, because I explored the kink community quite a bit. Yeah, it I was a really hard transition for me. It was very difficult. And it had to be pointed out to me by my partner at the time that this is patriarchy, this is possessiveness. Yeah. And I was already being exposed to patriarchal things that I was I hated and I didn't realize I was doing. Yeah to have that pointed out to me. It had to be pointed out to me.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

I didn't see that. I just thought that's how it what everybody thought.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

No. We have two whole episodes on the ownership of women. I I know that the first is episode 70. Traditional, this comes down throughout generations of patriarchy. Women are property. That's my property. You can't touch her, you can't look at her, you can't so I think that's where that comes from. Because you've secured a girlfriend, you think that she is yours now. Not to say you don't have certain commitments or boundaries or anything.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Right, but that's uh that goes to the seven bridges again that you both have those commitments and boundaries. Yeah. You get your secure base, but you build that together. It's not possession based, it's a secure base or an ownership base. Right. It's secure based between two people, both of you together. So the next sign that people can't separate sex from nudity, they sexualize things like breastfeeding, medical care, changing clothes in front of somebody else, a place like a sauna or a locker room, or even like non-sexual art, like a nude painting or something like that. They sexualize things like that. Yeah, or the statue of David. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Any kind of piece of art. The breastfeeding really has me.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah, but it's a it's a common one. That's probably the most yeah, when I think about this, this is probably the most common one. Well, it's not as big a deal anymore. I think even as short as ten years ago, people were having a big there is a lot of this stuff you'd see out in the media. Oh, yeah, about breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

People upset about people upset about breastfeeding in public because they were making it sexual.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah. They were seeing boobs, they weren't seeing a baby being being fed.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Right. They're seeing they're sexualizing female breasts.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Never mind the fact that we don't sexualize male breasts. Why? We because patriarchy doesn't have a fucking clue about women and what they're attracted to and doesn't care and doesn't they're so entirely hetero that they don't understand that your chest is just as attractive to a straight woman as mine is to a hetero guy. Yeah. We have that going around here. So it's kinda it's stupid because, in one sense, I'm like, the same standard should be applied to men and women about what we're allowed to uncover, what we have to cover up because patriarchy is saying my body up there is sexual, but but yours isn't.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

So you could just go uncovered and whatever. That's not even getting to the point of like, why do we cover anyway in the first place? Don't even get me started on that. But if you're going to be like, well, we need to cover what's sexual, then men would be wearing crop tops or bras or whatever as well.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Or always a shirt as well. So there's that double standard, and then it's kind of it's so annoying because I have to cover up, and in the same light, it's kind of like, well, thanks for being stupid as fuck, patriarchy, because then I get to see a bunch of male chests. So it's kind of like put it on the scales, which which you know, what would I rather? Not seeing a bunch of guys without their shirts on, or being able to do that myself. I just think that it should be the same between the sexes, yeah. Of of what this what the rules are.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

And it's 100% conditioning and training that makes female, the female chest sexualized.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

It's so stupid. And people ought to know too, that the only reason that males have nipples in the first place is that that Y chromosome doesn't come in for like six to eight weeks or something. And so there's development that happens before that, and until that comes in, and one of those is the male chest, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah, we all start as female.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

We all have nipples. And so why are mine sexual and yours aren't? That nipples are nipples.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

It's convenient.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

You know, 100% can you would have been female and started down that road before that Y came in.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

And so you all have nipples. Let's be real, they're all sexual.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

They're all e-zones.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Every one of them. And so it's like, it doesn't make any sense, and it's stupid. And then to take it further and sexualize breastfeeding, where it's like, okay, we all have nipples, they're all sexual. We actually have function in our breasts, whereas men do not have any function there. Unfortunately, they can still get breast cancer. There's no function there, and this is how we keep babies alive, and you're gonna sexualize that. Yeah. Like that is really immature juvenile. It's kind of gross when you think of it. It's absolutely disgusting, is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Sexual interaction with a mom and a baby, you know, and I don't I don't think they think it's not even an interaction with the mom or the baby, but it's a sexual thing for that guy to enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Alright. Next sign that you can't separate sex from nudity is they cannot imagine being nude around someone without either becoming sexual or believing the other person will become sexual.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, and that's just sad to me after the experiences that I've had or we've had with close friends or whatnot. That's just sad at night. I would think that that would cause some problems as well. That you are linking your body to your sexual experience. What if your sexual experience is abusive? What if your sexual experience brings about a lot of shame or not confidence?

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

What if it brings about a lot of body dysmorphia? I just don't think it's healthy to connect your body fully to sex.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Or or your nudity to every time you have sex. There's so many other things that your body does. I mean, being a gym rat, I do, and being a sex enthusiast and a sex rat, I I do think of my body in a sexual context a lot of times, I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

But also physically, like being very active and sporty and gym rat, I also think of it in that context a lot. I also love fashion and think about dressing the body and accessorizing and how and shapes and yeah and uh skin tone and and things like that. And so there's a lot of different ways to think about the body, and I think it is sad if you are only thinking about the body in a sexual way.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Alright, the next point is they treat arousal as proof that the situation itself is sexual. So they see nudity, they become aroused, and this must be sexual. Therefore, it's sexual. Therefore, yeah. It's again not somebody else's intent, that's your personal arousal. And there's nothing wrong with arousal, but nothing, yeah. But if it's gonna cause this conflict between sex and nudity, probably work on that.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Your arousal has nothing to do with anybody else but you sometimes sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

I could be sitting in the DMV and rub against my chair the wrong way in tight jeans and get, you know, turned on or have a very low key orgasm. That has nothing to do with where I am, anybody around me, or whatever. And I understand that you think, oh, but someone is naked in front of me or semi-naked in front of me, they are provoking me. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

No, they're not their fault.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

And no, they're not. In a lot of cases. Yeah, in in a lot of cases, if it's a non-sexual encounter, they're not provoking you. You got aroused, and that is your issue to work, work out.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah. And that's something to think about when that happens. And I'm not judging it necessarily as bad unless you're gonna go act on it against somebody else's consent. I mean, you have those situations where you get aroused. And you might see somebody and you're aroused by that person, but nothing wrong with that. But consider where you're at right then, you know. Maybe it's like, well, I don't even know where I'm going with this. But I don't think it's I'm more conscious of that now than I think I used to be, to just say, oh, yeah, and and more intentional about, oh, that's just a that's just a phi physiological reaction I'm having, and it doesn't mean anything. I mean, I guess my point is I I can see those situations and and appreciate them for what they are now better than maybe I could have when I was a teenager or something like that, with all this religious and patriarchal programming. I can look in that and say, oh, that's that's kind of arousing, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna act on it, but what it does cause me to do, what I've found, is it causes me to look inside and it's like, huh, you know, it could be anything from what needs do I have, you know, right now, or what do I want to experience right now. I get more preoccupied with that thinking than I am even whatever aroused me or whoever aroused me, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

You're using it as data.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

I'm using it as data to learn more about myself.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

You know.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

And I think, I mean, we have an episode about what turns you on. There is nothing wrong with being turned on by I mean, there's kinks, there's all kinds of things. It doesn't really matter what turns you on, it's what you do with that and the responsibility that you carry yourself and the integrity.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

And that's what I uh what I was trying to say is it has nothing to do with anybody else but you, not to say it's a problem at all. Go throughout the world, please be turned on, please be aroused, please be in your sexual energy and identity. Right. But don't necessarily that doesn't apply to anyone else until it does, and that better be consensual.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

So here's another one. This kind of leads us into the next the next point I want to make about um not being able to s separate sex from nudity. They'll say things like, Why would you get naked if you didn't want if you didn't want sex or yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

unknown 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

And again, that's that's assuming a lot.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

And we can tell you, I mean, let's talk about some of the benefits of uh for those who haven't really been naked outside of the context of sex or you know, doing something like showering or getting dressed. I mean, we're not talking about that, but just nudity outside of the context of sex. What are some of the benefits?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yeah, well, I mean Why do we do it?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Why do we like it?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah, I mean, it's very freeing for one thing, it's very livery. Yes. Um, it feels good.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

It feels very comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

I remember the first time I slept naked without something on, pajamas or something.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

That was again part of my religious deconstruction.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Because that was uh that's a no-no.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

It felt so good, it felt so relaxing, it felt so body in contact with the sheets or whatever, you know, just everywhere as opposed to all these layers we would put on. And when you think about it, you were putting all those layers on to prevent nudity. You know, it it was it was an anti-nude thing is to put all that stuff on. You got all these you go to bed fully clothed, basic basically, and then you put blankets on around you. What the fuck are the blankets for? You know?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

And things get twisted around, and I I don't even understand how people wear nightgowns, but yeah uh you know, older generations. But here's I mean, I'm gonna tell you right now, take it from me, there's nothing more comfortable than sleeping naked. No underwear, no t-shirt, no I don't care how soft that fabric is, I don't care. If you haven't, I I don't know anyone who has decided to sleep naked and have gone back to wearing anything.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Like there's just nothing more comfortable than that. And so I think comfort is a huge reason for nudity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

What are some other things that you you know you you mentioned? What are some things you think of?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

I like how you said it's liberating because we're so covered up, God, it feels good to not be it, it's it's natural. It feels very natural. It's kind of funny because in the world we grew up in, it feels it's so unnatural to be naked, right? We're like, oh my god, oh my god. Honestly, when you get past that societal ingrainment, it's so much more comfortable and it feels natural. Like, why haven't we been doing this?

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Well, you know, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

That's kind of what it feels like when you're in those safe spaces where you can, you know, express that way and and be naked.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Right. Well, and I think too, as you're talking about that, it made me think of, you know, there are probably people listening, and I'm one of them, that still struggle with some body dysmorphia issues, too. But I I noticed this yesterday. We were at an EDM event, and you unbuttoned my shirt, and I'm typically not comfortable doing that in public. Um so but it was liberating, you know, it's something it it's it's like getting over any other fear. You have to expose yourself. There's no other way.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

It's how I got over claustrophobia. You gotta get in tight spaces and and learn to breathe in there. Most people can do that, but it's like, yeah, I wasn't super comfortable doing that, but it's like by the time we got home, and I know we weren't in public, but uh it just felt so good to get my shirt off. Yeah. So I'm I'm making progress, but there will be people like me and others who are just like, you don't have the perfect body, and so you feel like nobody wants to see this.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Or, you know, not uh uh we shouldn't even say the there is no perfect body, but then you don't have the body you want for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, that's that's a better way to say of saying that.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

So I'm not there, um you know, and and and I th I know there's a a fair I I think it's a probably a better argument to say, well, you don't need to get there. Well, I'm not gonna say should, but it would be nice if we could all just feel comfortable wherever we are in our body to f and and a lot of people are there. There and I think that's beautiful. But I think that's a factor.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And that is true. And I will also say uh as someone who has built my body and has worked on crafting the body that I want since I was fifteen, there is also nothing wrong with that pursuit. Oh right. And it's usually a healthy it's usually a healthy pursuit.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

It is a healthy pursuit. But so yeah, I I think that's gonna stand in the way if we feel like we gotta get there before we can be comfortable with any any version of nudity. Right. Because practice that else that's probably less healthy psychologically than not having the pursuit.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Practice on your way in that pursuit. Yeah. Practice along the way of that pursuit.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

And that's kind of what we were doing yesterday. You unmet my shirt, I left it that way the whole evening. Was I ready to take it completely off? No, I wasn't ready to do that. But again, it's exposure therapy. And I knew that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Yeah. But I said, you know, you're I I help you through it. You're fine. This looks good.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It looked uncomfortable buttoned like it was, so I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah, so you you it's good to have a partner who can help you through some of these things. Kind of reinforce that.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

But I do think that we hit on the best three reasons. Comfort, it feels natural because it is, yeah. And there is a liberation aspect of it. Yeah. Where you can feel more free, less inhibited, more confident, more accepting of yourself. Like I said, there are some healing aspects of nudity that I don't think people are experiencing.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

This last one I want to point out, they have difficulty people who can't separate sex from nudity, they have difficulty respecting boundaries once nudity is present. As though consent to be seen is consent to sexual interaction.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, I think that's a big one.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

It kind of goes back to the previous one a little bit. Why would you get naked if you didn't know?

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, it's that you asked for it. Bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Of no, I didn't. I didn't ask until I verbally asked for something, I didn't ask for anything. There should be autonomy in the decisions about what we other otherwise we live in an oppressive society where I have to wear this, I have to wear that, I have to cover up, I have to do this, I have to do that. Do we live in a free country or don't we? Because I don't think we do. Right. And I think that if you are like, I can wear whatever I want or not wear whatever I want, I I think that we would, I guess, be a lot more free.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

You make a good point, because we had that whole episode on when you went into 7-Eleven with wearing a shirt, but you had a thong bikini bottom. That's probably even as that's as good an example as as the nipple thing for between men and women, because everybody has an ass. Everybody does, you know? I mean, we all have nipples too. But I mean there's not that much difference in in those things, but it but for some reason in that context, and I mean you can go out and and question this, you can you can chat GPT it or whatever, and you'll you're the response you're gonna get is well, the context matters and all of that stuff. Uh but but why should it necessarily? Well, the context is just nudity is frowned upon, you know. In some places more than others. But you were wearing that, you were on your way to the pool in that thong bikini bottom, and nobody gives you a problem at the pool because the context is the pool.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

As soon as I walk into the pool gates, I'm good. Yeah. But I can't walk into the 7-Eleven and buy a drink on the way.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Both public places, and I guess they can set different rules for different places, and that's that's why that is, but it it still makes you scratch your head and say, why? What's the difference? Yeah. And it has to do, I think, with all the people around and how they're going to accept or not accept it. At a pool, you accept it. At a grocery store or a convenience store or a library, you don't.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

It's a bunch of societal rules that have been set forth as appropriate. And patriarchy is is making the rules that don't make sense.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

I this is a huge point getting back to once someone is nude, someone thinks if they're, you know, attaching sex to nudity, they think there's the there's the consent, there's the invitation. Right. There's the because it it just became sexual for them.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah, because there's nudity. So there's nudity. So you see how nice.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

You see how dangerous conflating those two things is. The second that someone is naked, boom. It just became sexual, and that is hella dangerous. We don't even need to go that far to face the problems that we have in the world right now.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

So this takes us to why can't some people separate sex from nudity? And some points here. First one is growing up where nudity was hidden, shameful, or only discussed in relation to sex. So if you grew up in a situation like that, as opposed to like a culture that talks about it openly.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

And I think or experiences it openly.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

I think that you look at parts of Africa versus the United States, for example, it's like, oh, we're fucked.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Like we that's I'm sorry, but that's everybody I know what you just read. Like we all grew up that way. If you're in the probably the Western uh societies.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Right, right. And it's I mean you look at that and you look at if if there was a culture where everybody pretty much went around nude all the time, uh not all the time, but just you know, I mean, but I mean take it to that extreme. Somebody you're in some culture, some far remote culture, and people just don't wear clothes, or they wear the minimum just to s just for safety. But in those cultures, I would assume nothing sexual until it's sexual.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah, until it's sexual.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

So you could it looks the same. The nudity looks the same, but if you're not actually both consenting to have sex, it's not sexual.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

It's like people wearing baseball caps, they're not playing a baseball game.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

You got professional baseball players wearing a baseball cap every game. You have Joe Schmo's on the street walking around with a baseball cap all the time, and we don't go, hey, hey, why aren't you on the field? You're not playing the baseball game. What the hell? You know, you're not a pro.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Why are you wearing that cup's hat? You're playing in the game later, you know? What yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Like, no, he's not your way to the cups game just to play. Didn't want to do his hair, or is wearing that hat as a fashion or or is trying to keep the sun out of uh out of his face. There's a there's a there's different reasons for being nude. Right. And sex is not the only one.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Exactly. So the next point why some people can't separate them, seeing naked bodies almost exclusively through pornography or sexualized media. There's a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

That's another problem in our country. You know, that that might be the that's why I gotta cover my nipples and you don't have to cover yours.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Right. That might be one of the leading problems with pornography and sexualized media, is just the the even if it doesn't make you make you some sort of quote unquote deviant, yeah. It's just sets you up for not being able to separate from the phone.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Let's be honest, in American media, we don't see a lot of TV shows or movies where someone is nude without a sexual context. I'm sure we can come up with examples. One comes to mind, then again, people are probably sexualizing it, but it's not meant to be sexual. In the morning show, Alex Levy had COVID and was curled up in a ball naked in the fetal position in the shower, naked.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Nothing sexual about that. She's sicker than a dog, probably gonna live. Like she lives, you know, like she's not dying, but if anyone, I didn't have COVID, but for those who did, I heard about it and you wanted to die. Right. You wanted to die. And we've all been there, we've all been so sick, whether it's the stomach flu or flu, a fever, whatever, where we are just curled up in the fetal position, where as vulnerable as we could be, we realize our humanness real fast on the shower floor because we just do not even have the strength to properly shower, and like we've all been there desperately throwing up or and crying about it and feeling so sorry for ourselves and wishing we would just kind of die.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

And that was that scene. There's nothing sexual about it. People probably made that sexual just because she's naked, it isn't sexual, and so there are examples whether people don't sexualize those examples or not is enough is something else to discuss, right? But it wasn't meant to be sexual.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

No. And if you're sexualizing that, you're missing the point of her being sick. You're objectifying her as a sexual object as opposed to having any sort of care or compassion for the situation. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

It's like, well, why would you You were supposed to get the sense that, oh my god, she's at the lowest of the low right now. All of her dignity, like we've all been that sick. Where we're just like, I am nothing. I am the dust of the earth.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

I mean, can you imagine give being taken to the hospital after a car wreck and they have to cut your clothes off to treat you and like oh, this is we can't do that. We can't get to the wound because there are clothes there, and we better, you know, we better respect this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

You better not think of that. There are non-sexual contexts. If you find yourself completely sexualizing any context of nudity, then there's work to be done for sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Yeah. The next one here is religious or cultural teachings that frame bodies as inherently tempting.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

We have 100% relatability score here with where we have come from in Mormon.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

100% we can vouch for this. Yeah, you hear people say all the time if you wear something revealing, you become walking pornography, which is just toxic and disgusting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yeah, we definitely came from this culture, and as it turns out, the religion we came from has a now documented history of protecting pedophiles, rapists, SA, predators, etc. And no surprise after the way that we were taught to victim blame. Victim blame, victim responsibility was absolutely disgusting, and now we know why.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Next one here is limited exposure to ordinary non-sexual nudity. Well, we've kind of talked about that, but I I think if you want to be able to separate these two, you need to start to expose yourself to non-sexual nudity.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Well, we need to do this as a society and a culture too, but I would say, hey, it doesn't happen that often in American media. I get that, but make a point to notice when it does. So when you do see Jennifer Aniston curled up in a ball in the shower, be aware of what of what you're doing and what you're thinking about. Right. And so I think, hey, it it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. There's an example right there where you could say, okay, this isn't meant to be sexual. There's a scene with, I don't know, 20 naked men and in the opening of Much Ado About Nothing, and 90s Shakespearean, you know, film with tons of great people, Kiana Reeves, Kenneth Branagh, Emma Thompson, it's a kind of a classic. They're all bathing together in this huge kind of outdoor pool kind of thing. You're gonna see a lot of men. There's nothing sexual about it, right? That scene. Again, trying to t to show you what it was like back then, what the culture was, what you did, what the traditions were in that time period.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah. Like we said earlier, nudity isn't sexual until you make it sexual, until it becomes sexual.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

And the question is, are you making nudity sexual when it's not?

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

And I think that most people have to say yes, and I think that I would have had to say to answer yes after I deconstructed this.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Once you see it, yeah, you kind of can unsee it. Next point is jealousy or attachment, insecurity. So nudity feels like sexual access that should belong exclusively to a partner.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

This gets back to that patriarchal possession and ownership of women.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yes. And I think men have a harder problem. Heterosexual men have a harder problem with it.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

It could be either, you know, it could be anyone.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Could go both. Difficulty distinguishing attraction, arousal, intention, and consent. I think that's where you're looking at somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

No, lumping those all into the same thing and making big assumptions based on nudity.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Not lumping them in. That's a good one. And this last one, personal boundaries sometimes I can't separate them actually means I don't want nudity outside sexual context in my relationship. You've got these personal boundaries that keep you.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

It basically it's saying you're too lazy to do the work. You're too lazy to do the work of separating sex and nudity, so let's just keep it this way. Yeah. And let's just make, you know, I I uh we're really buttoned up about the nudity in my relationship because I'm too lazy to do the work to separate that, to then be comfortable with my significant other being naked anywhere else but in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

From my experience, I would blow that out of proportion a lot more than I ever should have. You know, that was where I was in that whole patriarchal religious thing. It's like, well, you can't let somebody see you naked. What are they gonna think? What are they gonna do? What are they gonna how are they gonna be aroused? That's not your responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, it doesn't help that you grew up in a religion that completely over-sexualized women.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

And then at the same time totally killed any sexuality within them. Also, that victim blaming, ownership, yeah, it just all the bad things. All the bad things rolled up into one is where we came from. I understand somebody that is in this place. There's a lot of work that has to be done. There's a lot of work, yeah. And they might be like, I don't know what's going on. You're working on it and you think you got it, and then you And they also in religion framed this as sacred. Well, it's sacred. Something should just be sacred. Right. The word sacred is a bunch of bullshit, is what it is. And it's an excuse for other things happening that are gross and disgusting, like ownership. Then we're we'll just call that sacred, and then people have to believe that it is because we said so because we're spokespeople for for God.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

They can just slap a sacred sticker on on anything to control the situation.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

How do we wrap this up? What how do we summarize the this whole thing? Like the the difficulty of separating sex and nudity. What do we want people to know here?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

I mean, in my wildest dreams, I would want our culture to to make shifts so we could change. I'm one person.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Yeah, so what can one person do?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Well, one person could put out a podcast that hundreds of people listen to, or thousands of people listen to, or whatever, and and I mean, I think one person can make a difference. But even if it makes a difference for one person out there listening, and they're like, you know, I want to experience what you're talking about. I d I don't want to be like this or that or whatever. I think it's it's worthwhile to even change one person and allow them to deconstruct any part of patriarchy I'm a fan of. You know? Experience the the humanity, the liberation, the freedom, the confidence that being nude outside of a sexual context could provide. And then it's some this episode is for people to think, like, hey, is this you? Because this is kind of a problem. And if you can't separate sex from nudity, maybe start working on that and start practicing that.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yeah, and I think if you are at a point where you can separate sex and nudity and talking about what one person can do, I think you can also, if you're a fan of this, separating sex and nudity, you can call it out when you see somebody sexualizing nudity.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

True. Yeah, absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

That's one thing everybody can do. You know? Right. You see that happening, question it. So we're kind of question the person who's doing it.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Here's our message: spread the word. You never know what can happen. In this podcast, we often use the terms women and men when discussing relationships and sexual dynamics. However, we want to acknowledge that not all women have vulvas and not all vulva owners identify as women. Similarly, not all men have penises, and not all penis owners identify as men. Our podcast welcomes individuals and couples of all orientations and identities. We aim for inclusivity, but fully acknowledge that our attempts will never be perfect. We are learning and adopting new language as humankind and our world evolves.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Hey, just a heads up.