No, Women Didn’t Ruin the Workplace with Alison Campbell

A 2025 New York Times piece asked whether women have "ruined the workplace," blaming flexibility and empathy for what's broken.

Alison Campbell, founder of unBurnt® and former Chief of Staff turned leadership researcher, joins me to set the record straight. We talk burnout, workplace design, working motherhood, and what her new research with Bentley University is uncovering about how people actually feel at work right now.

This is an honest conversation about who's really responsible for burnout, and it's not the people asking for flexibility.

Read When Burnout Looks Like Productivity: The New Risk to Innovation Capacity (https://www.getunburnt.com/research)

To connect with Alison:

• LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alison-campbell-3035b63/)
• Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/get_unburnt/)
• Website (https://www.getunburnt.com/)

Need a little more balance and a lot more badass in your life? Check out my 1:1 coaching sessions designed to help you tackle your biggest challenges, manage stress, and create a personalized plan for success. Your first 30-minute session is free! Visit tarakermiet.com to get started. 

Want to turn your dreams into reality? Check out my 7 Days to Crushing Your Goals mini-course! This course is packed with practical lessons and hands-on activities designed to help you define your “why,” leverage your strengths, and take decisive action. By the end, you'll have a clear plan and the tools you need to crush your goals. Visit tarakermiet.com/crushyourgoals to join the course and start making things happen! 

Transcript

Tara: [00:00:00] Alright friends, today I am sitting down with someone that I have been wanting to have on the show for a while and we've been kind of going back and forth with our crazy schedules, but, um, I'm excited to have Allison here with us. Allison's the founder of unburnt, which is a leadership and kind of wellbeing approach to this work, which.

Obviously that's why we're in alignment. Um, I would say that she's quite an expert as a former chief of staff who just knows firsthand what it's like to kind of rise through the ranks, um, while also running on empty and kind of giving everything you can to. At all. So she's really taken everything that she's learned the hard way and has turned it into research backed tools that help leaders protect their people, um, to build workplaces that don't burn everyone out, and to just create more, um, holistically well workplaces, so.

Definitely excited for this [00:01:00] conversation because she really does incredible work exploring how people are experiencing work and what needs to change in the workplace. Um, she's also studying the science of working motherhood, which as a non mother, I think is very interesting. Um, and it's honestly something that we don't talk about enough, I don't think so Allison, welcome to the Balanced Badass Podcast.

Alison Campbell: Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I have admired your work for a long time, and you're right. We've been trying to make this happen, so glad our schedule's finally aligned.

Tara: We made it happen. So let's get started. Um, and I'm gonna start with just a quick little icebreaker for you. And that question is, what is something that you're loving in your life right now?

Alison Campbell: I am loving the slowed down pace that I'm approaching holiday and end of year with this year. We just were mentioning before we hit record our holiday plans. This is the first year in 15 years other than 2020, so peak. Pandemic lockdown. [00:02:00] This was the first Thanksgiving we didn't travel, so

Tara: Wow.

Alison Campbell: All of our families are in a variety of other states it was really nice to slow down. Of course we miss our family, but just loving the approach that we don't have to be 24 7. We will see family for the holidays. Um, but Thanksgiving this year was just the four of us and it was really nice.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. That is nice. Yeah, I enjoyed not traveling as well, even though we hosted, and that's its own

Alison Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Tara: beast, but certainly not having to travel, especially like for us. 'cause with, and I imagine the same as with kids, but like with our dogs and stuff, it's just so much work to travel. So

Alison Campbell: It really is. And

Tara: it's, yeah.

Alison Campbell: flight prices and getting through the airport, all of it, you come back more

Tara: Yeah.

Alison Campbell: than when you started. So it was a really nice change of pace for us this year.

Tara: Awesome. Well, I'm glad to hear that and I hope the change of pace continues, um, throughout the rest of the season too. So, um, okay. So thinking about, I'm gonna jump right into it. So back in November, um, there [00:03:00] was a New York Times piece that the original title said something to the effect of. Are women ruining the workplace.

Um, basically kind of blaming things like flexibility and empathy for the mess that we're in in the workplace. And there were, there was a lot of dialogue around that. And so I'm just curious from your lens and your research and just the information that you have, when you see arguments like that, what's your initial reaction?

Alison Campbell: Yeah, my initial outrage was, uh, sorry. My initial reaction was outrage, so.

Tara: Very, very good response.

Alison Campbell: to the chase. It was really honestly wanting to scream into a pillow. It was just total disgust, if I'm being honest. I know they revised the headline, I read the whole article. Um, it was very long and meandering, if I'm being honest.

And so

Tara: Yeah.[00:04:00] 

Alison Campbell: think the initial headline was very Click Beatty if you kinda read through the whole narrative and everything that it entailed. But I just thought it was another. Another example. Blaming women of having it feel like is something broken about the way we're working and that there's a cohort of people, women, namely, that are to blame. just, you know, for me it felt like it's totally missing the mark and missing the moment that we're in, in terms of all of the dysfunction that we see in workplaces today. So much of it out of our control. It is. Almost feeling like it's happening to us instead of us being in control. Right? But the dynamics and the layers of pressure of post pandemic hybrid workplaces, the AI proliferation of roles and skills changing seemingly day over day. Trying to grapple with, you [00:05:00] know, layoff after layoff, after layoff, and the headlines and rebuilding cultures and making sense of work and what the definition of work means while also trying to cultures, create. Spaces where there's flexibility, companies that are really great and that understand that having holistically well people drives really great business outcomes are the winners, and they will continue to be the winners, however. Naming women as the cohort, as a scapegoat for why the workplace is broken was just another example of, you know, the bias that still exists in our society. And quite frankly, the, for me, the gap in, in terms of how far we still have to go.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah, and it, you know, not only is it the, this bias and scapegoat piece, but it's also, once again, perpetuating that narrative that. [00:06:00] A lot of this is just an individual's problem that, and, you know, we're battling this all the time, that it's, it falls all on the individual to address the concerns and they're the reason why it's like this rather than, let's look at the system issue.

Now. I'm, I always say like, individuals definitely have a role to play in this, but it's. A holistic problem that we need to address. And that's where I, that that's what triggered me was like, oh, okay, cool. It's still each individual's problem because we're blaming one particular sector of the population.

Alison Campbell: I think from a, looking at the work, to your point, looking at the system, really trying to understand all of the tools, all of the automation, all of the incredible advancements, and yet the workplace still looks and feels the way it. Did in the 1950s and in a space where we didn't have women in the [00:07:00] workplace and is really a byproduct of the industrial revolution when productivity was measured by widgets on a factory line, and it was nine to five and it was very rigid and you needed to be in person, of course, because you were physically producing something with your hands. Like all of that has evolved and yet our ways of working and our concept of what work is. Has not kept up. And so to your point, this whole like, did women ruin the workplace? I'm paraphrasing, that's probably not what it was originally was totally to me, not only missing the mark, but was just so aggravating to women who are trying to lead the charge to anybody in a workplace that is struggling. We're not dealing with the root causes, we're not dealing with the dysfunction. That is our modern way of working. To your point, there's absolutely personal responsibility, but at the same time was like just this another, it was another hall pass, like, well, let's ignore nothing to see over here. Let's just [00:08:00] blame it on women who wanted to get equal rights.

Tara: Yeah, and it also made me think about how women just actually experience work today, right? Because we've got all this pressure to perform at some may say and unrealistically high level, um, while also just keeping everything else together, having, you know, to be the perfect. Person at work, the perfect person at home, the perfect daughter, the perfect whatever you want to insert role here and, and, uh, from your lens and even from your own story, what do you think we're really still getting wrong about what's driving burnout?

Especially when you think about how women are experiencing the workplace.

Alison Campbell: A great question. I think that the pressure and the layers of pressure are very real, and yet we still live [00:09:00] in a society that feels very curated, feels like there's a certain formula to success, right? We were all sold the bill of goods that we could have it all, do it all, be anything, achieve it all. And we don't have the right support systems in place to make that all happen. do we have ways of working that are really reflective of a variety of different work styles, different circumstances, different life stages. And so, you know, I just think that we've got a really long way to go. And at the same time, I'm very optimistic that there are lots and lots of people who. I'm having conversations with every day companies that I'm working with every week and every month that do.

See, we need to transition to something different, right? Like these outdated norms, these out outdated sort of work styles are not serving anybody, right? They're not serving people, and they're also not [00:10:00] driving the outcomes that company leaders, maybe, you know, 25, 30 years ago when they were reading about leadership styles in books and. In their MBA courses, what have you, they're just not serving us. And so I am very optimistic that we're starting to see a shift.

Tara: Well that's good. Now I know you're doing a lot of research too right now, and I'm excited 'cause last time we caught up, you really were sharing a lot about what you're doing with Bentley University, just to get some fresh data on how people feel at work right now. And so. I'm curious what you're learning from that, what you're hoping this study uncovers.

Just how you see this really informing not only your work, but the work that kind of collectively we're all trying to do here.

Alison Campbell: Yeah, it's been really illuminating. Um, really, really interesting work. So we're recording this in December, 2025, and so we're

Tara: Hmm.

Alison Campbell: deep in analysis, [00:11:00] but hopefully early 2026. We start to share more of the insights and and data, essentially we're looking at drivers of workplace stress today in the context of 2025.

So of course, burnout and workplace stress has been studied. We have lots and lots of research on what creates good conditions for psychological safety. Great work. What are some of the conditions of burnout, both hallmarks for individual burnout as well as you know, sort of team dysfunction, but in the context of 2025, I was really interested to look at fresh data, as you mentioned, really understand and enumerate the many different kind of differentiated drivers of stress.

So not necessarily take an approach to. Generalize competing priorities. Too much work, but really, really drill down into many, many different components of what potentially is driving stress today, including questions about AI [00:12:00] and the uncertainty, the fear of how roles are changing, how it's leading to, frankly, lots of chaos. Operationally because not only are roles changing and we feel like, okay, great, we can automate subsets of departments and we're seeing layoffs, but there's not a clear point of view. I'll be very honest in companies I'm working with and the data I'm looking at not a clear point of view in terms of what we're optimizing for when it comes to ai. a spectrum. I'm overgeneralizing. There are many, many companies who are doing it well, right? They're, they're implementing technology. They have a very rigorous ROI process. They're understanding clearly how to pilot, roll it out in a small way, measure, and then iterate. Many, many more companies though, are just pressing the foot on the gas pedal of ai, bringing new technologies in, not coordinating. There are gaps in terms of even leadership. Alignment in terms of what we're trying to do, what are we optimizing [00:13:00] for? And then employees are left to upscale and kind of figure it out and are not quite sure what parts of their role should be automated. And so it's leading to a lot of chaos is the point.

And I'm overgeneralizing, but. seeing it in the data and I'm experiencing it anecdotally with companies that I'm working with, so was really interested in how all of those dynamics, including AI, perceived wellbeing, perceived stress, burnout, but then more holistically, how it's impacting really critical components of. High performing cultures like resilience, like empathy, like psychological safety, and ultimately how that's all driving innovation and our ability to be competitive. Right. So that was a lot that I just threw at you. Um, data is still, we're still mining the data and looking at the insights. It's been really interesting though to see what's coming to the surface of, you know, essentially those top drivers, how [00:14:00] people feel then about. Themselves in terms of wellbeing and stress and then how that's impacting downstream things like resilience and innovation. It'll be really, really interesting. We're segmenting and cutting the data, but it'll be really interesting to tie that to past studies and talk to companies about the way some of these practices and some of, you know, some of the, the sort of cultural norms within companies are actually ironically impacting. The ability for them to problem solve, navigate the change in uncertainty, implement AI in a way that will be productive and additive versus actually, um, detracting from, from driving company value. So tons and tons of things that we're looking at right now. Um, but excited to publish the results, hopefully.

Fingers crossed, Q1 of 2026.

Tara: That's awesome. I know that's, that's gonna be good information. 'cause I mean, to your point, a lot of the research that's out there is quite dated at this point on burnout. I mean, there's been updates [00:15:00] obviously, but, um, I think doing that. Now to see, and it's interesting you talk about ai, 'cause I'm not doing research, but anecdotally with my client interactions, the responses from like their leadership is always like, oh, well your stress will just.

Implement ai. AI will fix everything. Meanwhile, they're like AI's causing me more stress like,

Alison Campbell: It's.

Tara: we don't know what the purpose. You have to set the goal first before you just jump into AI will fix everything.

Alison Campbell: Right, and, and it's actually magnifying existing gaps in process or existing dysfunction across teams. And it's not even a negative. It's not, it's not malicious, it's not anyone saying like. Go faster. I think there is something to be said for the, the mass layoffs that are happening, and I do think there's gonna be a pretty big pendulum that swings back when we realize [00:16:00] we need humans.

The technology is still so new, like you can't automate and just let systems run unchecked. That's for maybe another podcast. However, I think that. So much of what we're seeing is not malicious, it's just baked into the system, but now it's getting accelerated and amplified because we're trying to make those systems that are already broken go faster.

And so it's leading to even more stress, even more uncertainty and fear and um, yeah, I'm seeing it. I'm seeing it as well.

Tara: Yeah. Well, and I see too where it, it's impacting the morale of folks because they're. Their value within the organization is different. Their, the lens that they see it now and the the contributions that they're making, at least in the conversations I'm having, it's kind of like, well, you know, if you think that a computer can do this, then what value do I have to offer this organization?

Which then, you know, [00:17:00] spirals into. This confidence piece and, and all that. But it's just, it's interesting and, and I'm, I'm with you. Like, I really do think too that we're gonna be balancing things out a little bit at some point to, to bring people back. And I just wonder what that's gonna look like. Like how, how much damage has been done already

Alison Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Tara: folks and to workplaces because of this response that we're seeing.

Alison Campbell: I think there's a tremendous amount of trust erosion that's happened. I think really over the last five years. The pandemic, the early years of 2020 or the early months of 2020, it was survival mode. I think of course, companies. Closed, there were layoffs. There were some companies at Surge because of the pandemic.

But really I would say since 2021, has just been shift after dynamic shift, nonstop unrelenting pressure, and lots of, I think, trust erosion [00:18:00] between that corporate contract, if you will, like the employer to

Tara: Hmm.

Alison Campbell: I think trust is broken. I will say, I just wanna make sure I'm going on record and saying I think there's tons of good about ai.

I mean, I think the

Tara: Oh yeah.

Alison Campbell: unearth and speed up. Breakthroughs and research and you know, automate yes, the mundane and free up the human capacity to think more creatively and be more mission aligned. And purpose-driven in the work is incredible. Like there's so many exciting things we probably can't even imagine sitting here today, however. We're also taking that capacity and we're just back filling with more, and we're doing so with uncertainty and chaos and without a really clear line of sight into, as we've said a few times, what are we optimizing for? So if there's a process that's broken and we're just speeding it up and we're not really clear, like what is the demonstrated ROI. Then we're laying off people 'cause we think we've got it. But there's this [00:19:00] broken trust between leadership and employees where no one's really about the risks or talking about what's not happening because they're fearful that they'll be next to go. So we've got tons of blind spots. We're automating things that aren't working.

You know, I'm, again, I'm overgeneralizing, but this is where I feel like the danger in not having strong psychological safety, trust. An environment where you can debate and you can say, wait, hold on. are we doing this? Or I'm overwhelmed. That is one of the silent burdens of getting to a place of burnout is because you don't feel like it's safe enough to name it. And

Tara: Yeah.

Alison Campbell: unfortunately, we're baking those things in as well right now in this age of AI proliferation and so. I do think we'll see a snapback, but that's one of the dangers. Even though there's an incredible amount of good and and positive advancement that's happening as well.

Tara: I mean, just with anything, right? You have, you gotta take some bad with the [00:20:00] good and

Alison Campbell: Yeah.

Tara: a matter of balancing that out and, and recognizing it. And I, you know, I think it's. Oh, what were you saying too? Just made me think about how much we need strategic restraint right now, because the excitement, the possibilities, and what it could be is driving some of those decisions that aren't necessarily intentional, well thought through, or even if they are, we're just speeding the process because we're also in this.

Fast, responsive, reactive kind of nature within the corporate structure and our world. So then that also feeds into some of that too. So I think the, the companies and the organizations that I see that are embracing the technology and embracing the opportunity, but with some constructive skepticism and some restraint, I'll be interested to see if those are the companies that kind [00:21:00] of advance even further.

In the future just because of that more intentional, slow paced approach too.

Alison Campbell: and, and the measurement, right? Is it

Tara: Mm-hmm.

Alison Campbell: What's working? Okay, what do we do next? It's really interesting that so much of budgets, just budgets to invest in the business have shifted to technology, AI specifically, and that have dried up in other areas where it's again, impacting. The skill development, right?

So you're imp implementing these really expensive new technologies. We may not even fully understand the data, the rules of engagement, right? Like what am I allowed to do from a proprietary standpoint? And yet we're then freezing budgets. To do that very thing to train people, to utilize the technology that we're investing in, in a way that is additive to the business.

So it's a really interesting, it's an interesting hamster wheel we find ourselves in where we're so excited. To your point, we're, we're racing to do it. We're certainly looking to our left, looking to our right, trying to keep up. [00:22:00] Um, and yet it's like we're getting, we're getting over our skis a bit and it's all happening so quickly.

Tara: Yeah, we could talk about this probably the entire, um, episode. But, um, I, I do also wanna hit and touch on some of your work too, with. Understanding what working motherhood looks like and what you think maybe the future of work and family should and needs to look like. If we do want to see some of these burnout rates drop.

'cause we're seeing them just every time a new report comes out it's like increase in, increase in increase. Um, what do we need? What do mothers need specifically? And I know obviously generalizations 'cause everybody's needs are different, but. Just from your, what you've learned, your own experience, um, anything that you'd like to share in that realm.

Alison Campbell: Yeah, I think. So again, really, really big question. Really important question. There's so much data even this year, 2025, about women who continue to [00:23:00] leave the workforce or getting pushed out of the workforce. We don't have the right systemic. sort of, um, safety nets in place. There's just so much about the life stage of being a working mother as you're increasingly getting more responsibility at work.

And then increasingly your children are getting older and they have activities. It. Kind of feels like you need to clone yourself and you need to constantly make really hard decisions or be, you know, in two places at once. think, as I mentioned earlier, like the world of work, the structure, the paradigm of nine to five has not evolved to keep up with the way we live, the way we could be working. Um, and the way that women, particularly in that caregiving position, need to be able to work to be able to contribute meaningfully. And we've got a lot to offer and a lot to add. And so it's a shame that we're losing and we're, we're, the gap is widening in terms of women in this life stage [00:24:00] who are probably holding a lot of institutional knowledge at work. Are being forced to leave or having to make that really hard choice to, to take that step back. And so, gosh, there's a lot. I think that first and foremost, it's about identifying ways to support different types of work styles, right? We have this paradigm of full-time. Yes, we have consultants. yes, fractional is a, is a term typically for much smaller companies, startups. I know so many women. I have friends, women now that I've met through this journey who have had to negotiate on their own, their own part-time situation. And by the way. They're negotiating part-time. They're taking a pay cut as a result, and they're working pretty much full-time. And

Tara: Okay.

Alison Campbell: you know, it's like, why?

Why don't we have different options available? Why don't we have different types of work styles available [00:25:00] for a woman who's proven herself? She's come back, she wants to stay engaged, but she wants to do so with less hours. Why is that such a foreign concept? I mean, that's just one example of like the amount of women I've seen have to or be told, no, this is a full-time job and there's 10 more women behind you who want it crazy, crazy, crazy.

So I think there's this piece around work style. I think there's a piece around, frankly, how roles are shifting and how a lot of work can happen increasingly asynchronously

Tara: Yeah.

Alison Campbell: I know you and I both are deep in this work in terms of work streams and what's productive and meetings and asynchronous sharing versus like, do we all, do we need 30 people in a room to make a decision?

Right? So I'm giving, I'm throwing out very generalized examples, but the way work gets done is not reflective in the paradigm of. Work culture. [00:26:00] Yes, we still need PE people to collaborate. Yes, we need some rules of engagement. Otherwise, you know, you might not ever have an hour overlap where everyone can kind of get on a call together, but it's just not evolved fast enough to reflect the society we live in today.

You know, with schools starting at nine o'clock and yet meetings sometimes getting called for 7:30 AM you know, we, we have to kind of recognize. The 24 7 culture that we live in, but then create space for different types of work styles, as I mentioned. So maybe part-time options, but then different different modes of operation within the workday itself.

Tara: I have a, I have a friend who. She works for an international company and before she had kids, she kind of was on the US based team, so like she worked the typical nine to five and then after she had kids, she asked to be transitioned to the European whatever time [00:27:00] zone. So that way it, it kind of wrecked her sleep, we'll be honest, but like that way she had.

Work when the kids were either home and her partner was home or you know, whatever. So she had time to be able to pick up the kids, to take the kids to daycare or when they were younger, like she was able to stay at home with the kids. Um, but like the sheer fact that she had to completely change teams and her working style, and once again, it fell on her

Alison Campbell: Yes.

Tara: that.

Alison Campbell: To negotiate

Tara: that's where,

Alison Campbell: yes.

Tara: that's where I see that like and you were saying like negotiating the, the part-time. Sure. Like I'm a firm believer, like we need to negotiate for what we need and those kind of things and have that conversation. But there are some structural things that can certainly be in place that make it easier for us to advocate for our needs.

Alison Campbell: think, yeah, it should be an option on the menu versus the [00:28:00] bespoke, oh, she's an exception. We, we carve this out for her. And yes, you should advocate for what you need and what you want. And at the same time, it shouldn't feel like then you're an outlier. You're not getting put on the good projects. I think there's tons of stuff that can be happening, and that could be just more, uh, built into the rhythms of the business.

Like asking, what do you need? Not having the meetings bookend, the starting and ending parts of the day. I used to, when I was in a corporate role, I was a chief of staff. I would be down to the minute until I had to be getting in my car, driving to pick up or driving to an activity. Oftentimes putting my AirPods in, walking outta the building, continuing the call in the car, literally down to the minute like, okay, I'm in the parking lot now to go. that meeting probably didn't need to happen at 5:00 PM But. Oftentimes women in leadership positions who again, are at [00:29:00] that life stage where they're reaching executive ranks. Now they have children, their lives are fuller, are sometimes, you know, there's, there's less representation in the room. And so have to kind of, not only name it for yourself, but you do feel like you're the other, and everyone else can stay until six o'clock. So I'm just gonna take this call until the very last minute where I need to be walking in to pick up. That's not okay. Like we need to recognize that there needs to be flexibility, but in a way where again, it's not all the personal responsibility of the one lone woman in that meeting or the few that. On the senior executive team, if you're a manager, recognizing that you've got a hefty load, you're managing a team, you're responsible for delivering work, you're managing up, right? And then you're in this pivotal life stage where you've got little kids, you're coming back to work, you're trying to figure out what's my identity. When I can't work 24 [00:30:00] 7, right? And I've got this life at home that I wanna be home for, but I also need to be home for, it shouldn't be bespoke for every single woman to have to figure it out on their own. It should be kind of woven in, as I mentioned. And so, lots of intricacies, right? There's context in terms of the business, um, the, the global footprint versus a very small regional business, but. just needs to be more normalized that have massive contributions to give to the workplace, and yet the way of working the paradigm is not working.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah, and the way I see it is you make accommodations. In the way we work and, and how it's structured. And that doesn't just benefit mothers that's going to benefit every single individual because, you know, I, like I said, I'm not a mother, but this is a terrible comparison. But there are times where I need to take my dogs to the vet.

Like, [00:31:00] or, you know, we've, we have aging parents and we're care caregivers in a different way. Like those kind of things, like we need to think about. How does the work, the work should su support the life? And how, how are we structuring it in, in a way that allows people to be successful at work and not take away from their lives at home either?

And that's, I think the, that's where you we're talking about like the mentality that we're still like work is everything and you don't bring a part of your human. Peace to work. Like you're just the robot that shows up to work and you do the work and you put in what it takes to do it, and that's just not how it needs to be, nor how it should be, but not how it needs to be.

Alison Campbell: It doesn't need to be that way. And I think we've, we've talked about this before, the business case of people being well and people feeling like they can bring their whole humanness to work. [00:32:00] You know, be holistically, well have capacity for. Personal wellbeing, family wellbeing creates better employees.

Like there's data, there's tons of research. There's um, a recent body of research from Oxford that ties out wellbeing and they had an index of wellbeing scores and then firm performance indexed against the SAC market indexed against profitability. And the firms that had better wellbeing scores were performing better.

So it's black and white data. It's good for people, we should be doing it anyway, but it's good for company performance and

Tara: Right.

Alison Campbell: it just, I don't, you know, I think we just, it takes inertia to unwind sometimes systems and structures that are in place, but to me it does feel like there's a wave of change. I do think the next generation coming up, so the whole, there are 10 women behind you. Not anymore. Like, yes, we're in a moment right now where the job market is very difficult, [00:33:00] but I, there's just a ton of Gen Z folks, data supporting it. Anecdotally, I'm hearing it, that are not interested in working the way we've worked. generations have worked historically where there's, there's hustle and gli, gr grime mentality of I've gotta pay my dues. Don't, don't admit that it's too much. Don't show weakness. Don't show failure. it out until you get to that executive rank. Meanwhile, we get there and we're like, is this it? 'cause I'm totally exhausted and this is not what I thought it was gonna be. But the next

Tara: I want my money back.

Alison Campbell: know exactly, I, I have the receipt. Um, but the next generation is looking and saying like, I don't think that's what I want my life to be. So we're facing a reckoning across so many different fronts. Like, there's lots of things coming together where I do feel very optimistic this is gonna evolve and we will start to see the shape in a, in a better, healthier direction. Um, but it's just interesting that it's not automatically a no [00:34:00] brainer for so many

Tara: Yeah.

Alison Campbell: today.

Tara: Yeah. And even like companies that are now, there's certainly right, really standout companies that.

Alison Campbell: Yes.

Tara: Are doing the work. They may not get it right a hundred percent. Nobody's going to, but like they're really doing the work. But it's interesting to see sometimes like these companies that, um, are led by women or, um, that are maybe more, for lack of a better term, like progressive in their thoughts about like the workplace culture and how sometimes they're missing the mark.

Like it's just, it's fascinating to me that. Even when you think it should be automatic, like, I mean, I worked for a company that was one of those best place, best places to work. Like, and I assumed that that actually meant something and then I lived it and it did not. So, um, you just learn that it takes [00:35:00] more research and digging to figure out what's going on underneath the surface.

But there are certainly good ones out there. Like I get this all the time on. Like social media comments and stuff, I'll get, people will be like, it's all terrible and there's nothing good out there. And I'm like, no, no. Um, that's not the case. Um, but you know, if I posted on social media about all the good companies all the time, that also wouldn't work.

Like,

Alison Campbell: Yeah.

Tara: we all can't work there. So we have to learn how to deal and work with where we are. But I, I too, I think there's gonna be a really good. Change in the culture. I think there already has been, and I think we're just, we're on that like beginning of the momentum, like we will see a lot of good change in our lifetime, and then obviously in the future too.

Alison Campbell: Yeah, I hope so. And I,

Tara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I know we are getting at time, so I have one more question [00:36:00] for you, and this is something that I ask everybody. So, as you know, this podcast is all about balanced living with badass results. So I always like to ask every guest, how do you define being a balanced badass in your own life?

Alison Campbell: That's a good question. I think that it really is about awareness first and foremost. It's about really identifying what you need then having the grace to recognize that those needs are gonna change over time. That it's this constant practice of evolving and checking in with yourself and okay that some weeks might be sprinty, right?

So for me personally, I'm doing this work. I used to joke, I'm building a burnout prevention company. I better not burn out. It's okay that some weeks are heavier and that I'm super passionate. I just need to know that I have to have recovery baked in. So for me now, it's about. The awareness, [00:37:00] the triggers, having a more holistic view.

It's not about this one day was too much and so I ruin the whole week. It's okay. Tomorrow I reset. I take a little bit more time in the afternoon, but it is really about that awareness piece. Like what do I need to stay well, and over the course of a week and a month, am I making sure I'm doing those things?

Tara: I love that and, and I'm really glad you mentioned too, like the seasonality of it too, because I talk about this and this is why, to me, everybody gets hung up on the word balance. But balance is just about how you're kind of changing your. Wait to accommodate whatever's going on and the instability that you might have.

And yeah, different seasons look differently. Like, I mean, I had surgery a couple months ago, well now, like six months ago. And like, that season was a very slow season for [00:38:00] me, and it took me some time, more time than I have would've liked to like, revamp and get back up,

Alison Campbell: Mm-hmm.

Tara: physically and mentally. But, um, you know, so.

There's, we need to know and prepare for those as much as we can as well. And I think for anyone who's experienced burnout and has done the work to explore that burnout and to dig into it, that's the greatest work that you can do because then you identify your triggers. You kind of know what your kind of personal habits and patterns are, that you can catch those ahead of time and.

Kind of put your coping mechanisms into play whenever you need to as well, because like, I'm, I'm very much like you, like I need to, there are days where it's like I've got back to back client meetings and that was something like originally I had told myself I was never gonna do, 'cause I didn't wanna have meetings all the [00:39:00] time.

But it's a different kind of draining too for me. Like I really enjoy it. It's just a. It's different than if I were sitting in like meaningless meetings like I used to be, you know, all that.

Alison Campbell: Yeah,

Tara: So

Alison Campbell: I

Tara: I appreciate that. Well, Allison, thank you so much for this conversation. I really do just appreciate, and I'm so grateful for you being here, for your honesty and just the insight and also the work that you're doing, the research that you're doing, I'm, I'm really excited to see.

What comes of it and what we learn more from what you're learning. So before we do close out though, I do want you to share how folks can connect with you, how they can learn more about your work, um, and follow that research so that way they can kind of keep abreast of that information too.

Alison Campbell: Yeah. Thank you. And this was so wonderful. We could have absolutely. Gone on and on. So I just, I appreciate you [00:40:00] inviting me and I just

Tara: Yeah.

Alison Campbell: It's been so great to

Tara: Thank you.

Alison Campbell: you over the past several months. So, um, yeah, this has been a great conversation. if any of this resonated and you wanna reach out to find more, you can find me.

My, my website is get unburnt.com. So, as we mentioned at the top of the hour, I focus on leadership resilience. Work within companies. But in 2026, I'll also be launching a product that, is exclusively designed for women. So stay tuned. You can find the details, um, at gut get unburnt.com. find me on Instagram at get underscore unburnt or on LinkedIn.

You can find me Alison Campbell. That's where I hang out and spend a lot of time on, uh, social media these days. So thank you again. This was really, such a pleasure.

Tara: Absolutely, and we'll have to do it again sometime too.

Alison Campbell: Sounds great.

Tara: but I'll, I'll also be sure Allison, to link everything in the show notes so folks can easily connect. And, um, you know, just [00:41:00] to our friend listening, I just wanted the. Everyone for being here. You know, if today's episode resonated, um, I would love it and I'm sure Alison would love it if you would share it with your friends, with your colleagues, and also just make sure that you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming next, and I'll be sure to catch you in the next one.

Thanks again.