Strategy Next by JHelmy&Co.
Welcome to Strategy Next, a podcast that explores the latest trends and strategies in business, technology, and leadership. Join our host as they interview industry experts, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders to gain insights and inspiration for your own strategic planning. From scaling startups to managing large enterprises, Strategy Next delves into the tactics and tools you need to stay ahead of the curve. Tune in each week for valuable insights and actionable advice to drive your business forward.
Strategy Next by JHelmy&Co.
Unpacking Sales Excellence: Leadership and Emotional Intelligence with Dean Karrel
Ever wondered whether great salespeople are born or made? Join us as we sit down with Dean Karrel, a career development advisor and sales trainer with over three decades of senior management experience, to unpack this fascinating debate. From his illustrious career in publishing with giants like John Wiley & Sons and Simon & Schuster to founding the Sky Ridge Group and becoming a LinkedIn Learning instructor, Dean shares the pivotal moments and lessons that have shaped his approach to leadership, mentorship, and career success. Get an exclusive sneak peek into his book, "Mastering the Basics," and discover the essential skills of emotional intelligence and confidence that are crucial for thriving in any business environment.
In our conversation, Dean reflects on the transformative shift to hybrid and remote work settings and how it has altered learning dynamics and mentorship opportunities. We explore the evolution of LinkedIn into a powerful networking platform, providing unprecedented connectivity and learning resources for professionals. Dean also challenges the conventional image of salespeople, advocating for a more nuanced view that prioritizes problem-solving and emotional intelligence. Whether you're just starting your career or are a seasoned professional, Dean’s insights on continuous learning and adaptability are invaluable. Tune in for practical advice and personal anecdotes that highlight the universal nature of sales skills and the importance of always staying curious and open to growth.
Welcome to Strategy Next by Jay Helme and Company, the premier podcast for business leaders and professionals. On Strategy Next. We delve into the latest tactics and strategies driving the future of business through interviews with top industry experts and thought leaders, from growing startups to leading large enterprises. This podcast is a must-listen for executives, managers and aspiring business leaders. Tune in to stay ahead of the game and elevate your strategic planning.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Strategy Next by Jay Helmy and Company. Today we have with us a very special guest. Dean Carroll is an esteemed career development advisor and sales trainer with over 30 years of senior management experience. Founder of the Sky Ridge Group, dean recently authored the book Mastering the Basics Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business. Dean is also a LinkedIn learning instructor and just recently his course Sales Closing Techniques achieved 325,000 learners, which is just amazing. Lots of people being helped there by Dean. Dean, welcome to the program. We're so pleased to have you with us today.
Speaker 3:John, thank you so much. It is an absolute pleasure to be here today.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. Well, it's our pleasure and Dean. Perhaps for those who are not as familiar with who you are and what you do, could you give us just a little bit of background.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Well. As you said, I spent more than 30 years in the publishing business, most recently as Senior Vice President of Sales with a business book and journals publisher named John Wiley Sons, based out of Hope Oaken, new Jersey. About 10 years ago, I left and started a new business of doing sales, training and coaching career coaching for people, as you mentioned. I have courses with LinkedIn Learning, with now 1,500,000 global learners have taken my courses, which is absolutely amazing, and I'm thrilled that I wrote a book called Mastering the Basics. I do presentations based off of that. So a little mixed portfolio of businesses that keep me out of trouble.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well, very impressive, and for those in the business world I'm sure they've heard of Wiley as well as Simon Schuster it seemed like you achieved the pinnacle of success in terms of the publishing world. You were in New York City, you're at these top publishing houses. What led you to kind of switch gears about 10 years ago and pursue the training aspect of your career?
Speaker 3:A lot of people have asked me that. You know I was very lucky. I used to say I had the best job in publishing. I worked with Wiley, which was, and is, a growing company, and it was a big era where they were doing a lot of acquisitions and growth, and I got to ride that wave In about 2008,.
Speaker 3:The world changed that was the global economic crisis that a lot of things, a lot of businesses changed and we began a process at Wiley where, instead of growing and acquiring, we had to reevaluate the business. So, instead of coaching and training and motivating, unfortunately, I was in a position I've had to do a fair amount of reorganizing and restructuring and I left the company on good terms, but it just got to be a point where the company needed to go in a different direction, and I did too. I went back to school and I said I wanted to do something different. My house is paid for, my kids are out of college. This is not something I would have been able to do in my thirties and I went back to school, took courses in training and coaching and developed a whole new business for myself.
Speaker 2:And that you have, that you have a whole second life of your career. You might say.
Speaker 3:It really was and again, I was very fortunate. I started with a publisher named Prentice Hall, which was the number one textbook publisher in its day. That was later merged in with a company named Pearson. I worked with Simon Schuster, which was the big trade and big trade general interest publisher, so I got to ride the wave of some big bestsellers there and, as I mentioned, wiley was a great and is a great company to work with and I spent more than 20 years there.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow. And I'm certain over those 20 years you must have thought to yourself there's a book in my mind. Somewhere Did you say to yourself someday I'm going to be the author.
Speaker 3:I think we all say that. You know, we all say we're going to write a book and then but when you have to sit down and do it, it's a it's a major task, and I just started to take down some of the tidbits of things that I focus on, and you know, things I talk about are things like you don't need to have a Harvard MBA to be successful in business and thus mastering basic skills, and it's something that has helped me throughout my career is focusing on those things, and I knew I was not going to be CEO material or doing the strategic plan for a big Fortune 500 companies. I knew my strength was working with people, motivating people and coaching people, and these were some of the lessons that I picked up along the way and I thought why not try to take my time and write a book about it?
Speaker 2:Excellent, excellent. Well, to that end, can you maybe touch on a couple, three of the lessons that you have, the nuggets of information that you've shared that readers could take advantage of?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, the number one thing I talk about in business to be successful is a term called emotional intelligence, eq the importance of being aware and listening to people, showing care, showing understanding, showing empathy. Now, whether you're in sales, whether you're in marketing or no matter what position you might be in, or senior leadership, having emotional intelligence is important. So I talk about that throughout the book. I talk about the importance of having. Since we were little kids, our parents or relatives would always say you know, you have to believe in your abilities or have confidence in yourself. That's easier said than done. We've all had the highs and lows in life, but it is so true that we need to believe in ourselves and believe in our abilities. And the stories I tell there is that you know, I was a B student. There were students a lot smarter than me who got straight A's. I had to work, I had to work hard just to get a B, and there are a lot of us out there.
Speaker 3:So how do you become successful? Well, it's enhancing the skills that we were given at birth, building off of those and then believing in ourselves. The other lessons are just being ourselves. Sometimes we try to overthink things or try to be like that other person, who may make more money or have a loftier title or a fancier degree. At the end of the day, we can't change our personality. We can't change who we are. So just try to build on the skills that we were given at birth. So those would probably be three key lessons of the book, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. And I remember years ago a sales manager said to me every sales guy and gal knows what you're supposed to do in terms of blocking, tackling, making those calls, making the follow-ups. He said the difference between those who excel in sales and the rest of the pack is that the winners, the most successful. They take the basics and they actually execute with discipline. They actually do. Everybody can read about what you're supposed to do, but do you find that? I mean, maybe in your years of experience in business, do you find a lot of people maybe don't reach their full potential because they say that they're going to do X, y, and Z, but they really never execute.
Speaker 3:Bingo, You've just hit the nail on the head, John. It's so true. Basics such as show up on time, follow up, do what you say you're going to do. If you tell a buyer or a client or a customer that you're going to provide a certain product or service at X price by such and such a date, well you have to fulfill that obligation. And that's not rocket science and you don't need an MBA for that. That is saying what you're going to do and actually committing yourself to getting it done. And for me that has worked. And you would be surprised and shocked at how many salespeople, how many business people, no matter what job they have, miss those basic skills of getting things done. And again, that's what's helped me throughout my career, of just managing those basic skills and fulfilling my obligations to people.
Speaker 2:Yep, Yep. I think we can all relate as well. We've all heard Bill Gates, for example, or Warren Buffett. I don't have a magic box. How did I become number one, number two, most wealthy person in the world? Focus on the basics, Like Buffett loves to say. Find something you understand, invest in it and stick with it.
Speaker 3:Great philosophy, right? I mean, that is his philosophy invest in things he knows and understands, and that's sure, as heck has worked for him. That's you know, that's for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:One thing I love about the book and I would encourage all of our listeners to pick it up on Amazon wherever available. But each chapter I would say your average chapter is two or three pages, so it's easy to pick up and learn something and especially on a busy day, I certainly appreciate that being able to dive into something, pick up some skill or just, quite frankly, learn something. You had a chapter titled Exhibiting Empathy and Compassion and I think that's another set of skills that perhaps and you've mentioned already EQ, but especially in business, there is still a sense on this part of some that boy, you got to be tough, you got to be. You know it's too bad if I'm a jerk, but that's what it takes. But you say no, empathy, soft skills are important.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, absolutely, and I think it's just trying to be a good person and it's part of my philosophy. You're good to people, people will be good back, and if they're not, then these are people you don't want to work with whether they're a customer or a coworker.
Speaker 3:If somebody's not nice, why do you want to work with them? I want to work with optimistic people, I want to work with positive people. I want people who work with people who are fun to be around. And it goes back to the philosophy of just being yourself and, I think, being good to people and showing empathy, showing care, being there when somebody has lost a job and trying to help them out. I think that's so important or whatever it might be be there for people in the good times and when the bad times may strike people, because we're all. We have all been there right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Absolutely. All of us can relate. Another chapter you have is leadership versus management and the difference between what makes a true leader. It's not just rarely is it the job title, quite frankly. Can you talk to about that a little bit?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. I think we've all worked with people who are managers, meaning they've, they're sticking to the book. You have to have to do X, y and Z by a certain time, a certain date. They're not caring, they're not understanding, they're not really coaching. They are so focused on the job, responsibilities and the tasks that they're not really showing you the way or modeling the way, which is what a good leader does, the way or modeling the way, which is what a good leader does.
Speaker 3:And again, I was so fortunate throughout my career to work with good leaders guys by the name of George Stanley, will Pesci, stephen Kipper and Gary Gutschel my first boss who were people who were leaders and they helped. They were like blockers in football. They opened up the path for me to be successful, they kept their egos in check and let me succeed. And that's what good leaders do they coach, they train, they motivate, they encourage, they show care, compassion and unfortunately, what I found is I've done my coaching work. Now A lot of people aren't as fortunate as I have been to have worked with good leaders. They work with a lot of managers and then become involved in toxic work environments.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And, of course, the M word, mentor, so important. In fact, I wrote a post on LinkedIn several years ago titled Everything I Know About Business Almost I Learned in United First and the gist was that I used to travel so much that I could score the uptrace with United Airlines and I had the benefit of traveling with my boss to various conferences and meetings and the time I spent with her, the tidbits, the advice, the perspective, as she was closer to the end of her career. I was just a young guy beginning my career. So important to have a mentor, to find someone and then, conversely, to pay it back If you've gotten to a point in your career where what do they say? Send the elevator back down once you've gotten there.
Speaker 3:John, that's great advice. Paying it back is so important and it not only helps that other person but it makes you feel good too that you've been able to assist somebody along the way. You know you make a good point about. You know those early days in business, for you were traveling and being with somebody. I think I mean I'm old school here, but with as we are all in hybrid work environments or fully work from home, we miss out on those times when you're with your manager in a non-business setting. When you're at the airport, you see how they handle a stressful situation, you see how they handle, you know who's running onto the plane first or who's getting the taxi first, or are they there or just basic conversations. And that's where you really learn a lot from people is in the non-business setting. So if you're in a hybrid situation now or fully work from home, you're missing out on that. You know I call it leadership by walking through the hallway and having those off-the-key, off-the-record conversations with somebody, ad hoc conversations where you can really learn from somebody.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That brings us to the topic of networking and let's reflect on LinkedIn, because you had so much success with LinkedIn the early days people said it was just Facebook for grownups and there used to be actually disagreements Keep this stuff off LinkedIn, it doesn't belong here. And then, in my opinion, through the pandemic, it became more of a community. Feel like, hey, we're all kind of stuck, how's everybody doing? And LinkedIn has evolved, I feel over the years and I just know by numbers and experience that if you're trying to build your business or network for different opportunities, there's really nothing else like it. What are your thoughts on LinkedIn and your success on the platform?
Speaker 3:I think you described it perfectly. You know you go back 5, 10, 15 years ago LinkedIn. You put your resume out there, some basic information, and you clicked like on a couple of topics or whatever and you really didn't participate. And I think now it's a place where you're sharing ideas and sharing thoughts and you're meeting people. I'm amazed.
Speaker 3:I communicate with people from around the world now about sales, about careers, and I have a fair number of followers and that's not everyone that I speak with or not everybody I'm connected to, but it's sharing ideas and the easy thing to do is just click like or you put your photo up there and a basic description of your work. But this is where you can learn from people in different businesses by posting your thoughts, posting your ideas, and it's not that hard. You know people talk about networking. We all think about what we've all been to the conference, where we have that little name tag that says hi, I'm John or hi, I'm Dean, and it's called a networking break, and you're sitting around you know hemming and hawing in the coffee area outside of a conference room right.
Speaker 3:We've all been there. But networking with LinkedIn is really. It's participating with ideas and next thing you know you're connecting and meeting people from other states, other countries, other businesses, and it's opened my eyes. And so people say, Dean, you're such a great networker and I actually just think it's me just writing my ideas down and responding to other people and that's as simple as it can get, being yourself is the key Bingo. Bingo.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and for those who are interested, I believe it's LinkedIn slash in slash, dean Carroll. Just as simple as that.
Speaker 3:That's me and I reach out to people and they're always available to reach out to me if they have a question, that I can answer everything. But I try to. Again going back, how do we pay back? How do we help others advance their career or answer questions? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Let's pivot a little bit to sales training. I know that's near and dear to the heart of many of our listeners. Are great salespeople made or born? Born or made.
Speaker 3:Oh, there could be a big debate on that one. I think we all have sales skills and I think, no matter what job we have, whether we're in project management, whether we're in marketing, whether we're an accountant or lawyer or doctor, there's a sales aspect to everything, meaning we have to influence people and we have to help people make decisions or help guide them. I think we all can get better at sales and too often we are so fixated on the stereotype of what a salesperson is, and I often say that comes from the movies that we watch. It goes back to Alec Baldwin and Glenn Gary and Glenn Ross, where he goes always be closing. The leads aren't weak, you're weak. And then, of course, the Wolf of Wall Street, which is a fun movie, so to speak, because it's entertaining. But it makes me cringe every time I see it, because they've all since reformed because they had to pay for their sins.
Speaker 3:But a lot of these salespeople they were crooks, they were crooked and they paid for it. So a salesperson is a good listener, they're caring, they're understanding. It goes back to my basic theory of what you're trying to do is help somebody solve a problem with their product or service that can make their life better, whether through making them more money or make their job easier. That's what a salesperson does, and whether you're selling cars, insurance or whatever it might be, or a product or service, it is. You're trying to solve a problem and if you answer everybody's questions and if you're honest, lo and behold, you're going to make some sales. Business will follow.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And of course, you mentioned listening, which I think is, I would almost argue, your number one skill as a salesperson, because so many folks they're so, especially younger people, they're so eager to show their slides or the slick brochure the client you know, certainly they'll be impressed that you have this four color brochure. But you need to listen, you need to hear what they're saying, and if you listen well enough, if you have the skill of listening, people will tell you everything you need to know to meet their needs and then you offer up the proper solutions and it's a sale. It's how you can make a sale. I mean, do people need to listen more, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 3:John, you and I are preaching to the same choir here. We're on the same wavelength. I agree with you 100%. Listening skills are so important and you're absolutely right. We get into sales and we think you're so excited to talk about your product or service that somebody says hello and the next thing you know you're trying to close a sale.
Speaker 3:And it goes back to emotional intelligence. If you're aware and a good reader of eyes and good reader of body language and a good reader of what somebody is saying and responding to you, that's how you become a good salesperson knowing when to be quiet. You know too often we talk ourselves out of sales because we don't quiet. You know it's like just listen, listen and be aware of the body language and what somebody is telling you, whether it's in person or on a Zoom call, and so listening is the most important thing. And it took me a long time. I'm not saying I'm an expert. I love to talk, but you have to fight it and just say let the other person get a word in and ask them, have their objections or have their concerns, or, you know, providing more information. And so I'm agreeing with you 100%.
Speaker 2:Great. What advice would you have, dean, for somebody who's listening and that maybe they're a few years into their career? Right, they've graduated college, they landed their first job, they're 25 and they're thinking I could do more. What's my next step? As compared to, say, someone who's 55 and has had a solid career but maybe doesn't feel fulfilled? Do you have any advice for people on both ends of that spectrum?
Speaker 3:I think for people early in their career, it's always knowing that you're always going to be learning. There's always something new. Were we talking about artificial intelligence two, three years ago? Maybe a little bit, but now it is the talk, it is part of our business, everything that we're doing, and there'll be something else in two or three more years. When I first got in business, technology was near what we have now the idea of having laptop computers and mobile phones where we could get our data, you know, in real time. So for somebody new, it's always realize your training never ends and you always should be learning.
Speaker 3:That's not a catchphrase always be learning. It's something you're going to need to be doing throughout your entire career. Same holds true with somebody who's 55. And you know, when I first started coaching, I was working with people my age and a lot of them who were in their 50s think well, I'm old, now I can't learn something new, and that's a bad habit to fall into. And we're so concerned about age bias, which is some cases. It is true, very true, but the fact is that you just got to show the skills that you can do to improve.
Speaker 3:I talk about myself. I went back to school I was with students half my age or more, so brilliant and learn new things. And you always can learn, no matter whether you're 25, 45 or 55 or 70, you can still do it. And it's going back to what I said before believing in your abilities. Not everybody's going to be there supporting you, but what you're looking for is that one person to support you. So it's like that one sale to make that one person who's going to be your mentor, that one person who can help you be better, whether you're 25 or 75. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Tell us a little bit about the Sky Ridge group. What exactly is that practice for, or what do you do?
Speaker 3:Well, what's interesting the Sky Ridge is? Actually, I was trying to figure out what do I call the business that I have and that's a street that I grew up on, sky Ridge Road back in Connecticut, and I said, well, I like that and it's just my work. And when I needed something to house my coaching business, my training business, and I called it the Sky Ridge Group and it sounds nice.
Speaker 1:I like the idea.
Speaker 3:I like the idea. You know it's funny that when you start a business, it's like I spent money on a website. I spent money on doing all these things. And going back to what you asked me about networking so much of business is through referrals and you've done a good job here and somebody opens up the door somewhere else. Going back to networking, john, I trust you. You introduced me to somebody else. I introduced you to some of my friends. You can have the fanciest website in the world or the fanciest name of a company, the Sky Ridge Group, whatever.
Speaker 3:People know me as, dean Carroll. Dean, you're going to help me do something and that's what it comes down. You peel away all of the stuff. What does Dean offer? I offer basics of business how to work better in corporations, how to learn better, be a better salesperson and again, it's peeling away a lot of the stuff to say what does Dean really offer? Career coaching, sales training and motivation and encouragement. Terrific, and it would probably be worth saying as well, dean, even if somebody's not ready to completely jump back into learning mode, you know, stop their career and completely switch gears, learning, you can do a little bit as you can.
Speaker 3:Business subjects I'm always reading, and not every book is going to give you a lot of valuable tidbits, but for $20, $15, or an e-version for $10, if you get two or three good ideas, that can be a game changer. There was a book for me, the Power of Simplicity, that I read 30 years ago and 25 years ago, and it was. You know. Break things down, make it simple, stop overthinking things. Don't have a to-do list of 40 items. Have a to-do list of three things. So that one book, the Power of Simplicity, really changed my thinking of how to do business and how to do my own work.
Speaker 3:I go way back to a book called what they Don't Teach you at the Harvard Business School the lessons of you know. They have all of the fancy things about, you know strategic plans and so forth at this and advanced thinking at Harvard Business School, but what they don't teach you at Harvard Business School are the basics of business. And that book also changed my thinking about how I get things done and my whole philosophy is how do you break things down into small pieces, make things that you can accomplish, set achievable goals, and so if you're learning and growing in your career but you don't want to go back to school or you don't have the time to take all of these classes part-time. Find a book, invest in that, or go to your local library and check out a business book. Going back to LinkedIn follow certain people that you get great lessons from Guys like Chris Croft, david Crenshaw, todd Dewitt, sarah Kennedy there's a whole list of people that I follow that I learned something from. It's like wow, what a great idea and that's free Free from joining.
Speaker 2:LinkedIn? Absolutely, and I noted too you have some chapters on time management. A lot of people will say I just don't have the time, dean, but you always have time for what you put first right.
Speaker 3:Well, that goes back to the fact of how do you keep things simple, and as you add things, you have to take things away. You can't do everything and there are only seven days in a week and you also need to have time just to relax and have food and be with your family and be with your friends. So what do you give up? What are you doing now? That's not productive and for me, for time manager, for me is I again, instead of having that laundry list of 15 things to get done, what are the three things that I want to get accomplished this week and what are the three things I mean?
Speaker 3:For example, today I wanted to do some things. I knew I was going to be with you today, so I said I'm making sure my afternoon is free, this block of time is free, so that I'm clear that I'm ready and available to be here for you so we can have this discussion today. I'm not doing 15 other things right now, so I'm focused on you, john, and so it's being realistic about what we can accomplish and what we can get done, and that's how you do effective time management. No, there's never enough time to do everything. So what are the things that can make a difference and that you want to accomplish today, that are going to make you feel good today too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and all of us at Jay Helmy appreciate you making the time. It's very gracious of you to spend some of your time as we get toward the end of our discussion. Dean, are there one or two main lessons? If somebody was to remember just one or two things from our discussion today, aside from your LinkedIn address, hopefully they will visit you there. They'll pick up the book Mastering the Basics. Are there one or two lessons life lessons perhaps that appear to you to be most important over the years of working with thousands of people?
Speaker 3:A few there. I mean one is to be coachable, always be open to listening to new ideas. You're always going to be able to learn more. The other one I always talk about all the time is focus on what really matters, focus on the priorities. I always say to everybody and they've heard this throughout my career is family comes first, our families, our personal lives. You know the business will always be there. There's always going to be a sale or an opportunity. There's always going to be somebody have a customer service issue or something. So focus on your family and focus on your health and focus on things that really matter, knowing your priorities. The other one is be good to people. It's paid off for me. I spend my time, I try to be nice. I mean, do you need an MBA for that? No, so I met you, john.
Speaker 2:I finished first.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I try. I'm not perfect. None of us are. You're not either, john and Joe, none of us are. But what we try to do if you could try to help somebody, it pays back in dividends try to do if you could try to help somebody, it pays back in dividends. And again, you don't need a Stanford MBA, a Kelly School MBA or Harvard MBA to do that, and that's what I talk about in my book. That's actually lesson number one is be good to people, smile, say hello, help people out and, again, knowing your priorities, focus on what really matters, and I think that pays off in dividends.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. Dean, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and I'm so appreciative that you take the time to visit with our audience Again. Dean's new book is Mastering the Basics with Dean Carroll Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business. Dean's available on LinkedIn. And any last words for our audience, dean, before we let you go.
Speaker 3:Well, again, I appreciate the opportunity you and Joe reached out to me and I really look forward to opportunities like this to speak with people and if you're an audience, please do follow me on LinkedIn. Connect with me. I'm happy to chat and I post two to three times a week on LinkedIn, whether it's a video or some topic of interest to me, and I'm more than happy to reach out and talk to people.
Speaker 2:Wonderful Dean. Thank you so much. This has been John Lobb for Strategy Next brought to you by Jay Helmy and Company, and we'll look forward to seeing you on the very next episode. Thank you.
Speaker 1:That's it for this episode of Strategy Next. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and felt informed and enlightened about the topic discussed. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode. You can find us on all major podcast platforms and if you have any comments or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us at strategynext at jhelmyco Week, with another expert guest ready to share their insights and expertise with you. Until next time, thank you for listening to Strategy Next by J Helmy Company. Strategy Reinvented.
