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The Wellness Blueprint: With Dr. Caleb Davis
Welcome to The Wellness Blueprint with Dr. Caleb Davis, where we uncover the secrets to living a long, active, and pain-free life. Hosted by Dr. Caleb Davis, an orthopedic surgeon and fitness enthusiast, this podcast is your ultimate guide to musculoskeletal health, injury prevention, and wellness.
Dr. Davis combines his expertise as a shoulder and elbow specialist with a passion for empowering people to take charge of their health. From deep dives into cutting-edge restorative medicine to practical tips on avoiding surgery and optimizing recovery, The Wellness Blueprint offers valuable insights for anyone seeking to preserve their body and thrive at every stage of life.
Join us each week for professional guidance, fascinating medical discussions, and actionable strategies that help you move better, feel stronger, and stay functional for years to come. Whether you're an athlete, a weekend warrior, or someone looking to age gracefully, The Wellness Blueprint provides the tools to design a healthier you.
The Wellness Blueprint: With Dr. Caleb Davis
Episode 23: “Red Light Therapy: The Real Deal or Just Hype?”
Decoding the science of red light therapy reveals surprising benefits and exposes the truth behind this popular wellness trend. Join Dr. Caleb Davis and Nicole as they illuminate the fascinating cellular mechanisms that make photobiomodulation more than just a beauty fad.
The history of light therapy stretches back to 1903 when Nobel Prize winner Niels Ryberg Finsen pioneered using concentrated light rays for medical treatment. Today's red light therapy targets specific wavelengths (660-850 nanometers) that penetrate skin and tissues to interact with mitochondria. This interaction enhances ATP production, reduces oxidative stress, and modulates inflammation throughout the body.
What's particularly compelling are the clinical studies showing measurable benefits: skin appearance improving with increased collagen density, muscle recovery and reduced inflammation.
However, not all red light therapy devices are created equal – a fact that frustrates many consumers who purchase ineffective products. We break down exactly what specifications matter (wavelengths of 660-850nm and power output of 20-200 milliwatts per square centimeter) and explain why most inexpensive options simply waste your money. The biphasic dose response of red light therapy means both too little and too much exposure can be problematic, making proper equipment and timing crucial.
Whether you're a beauty enthusiast, an athlete looking for faster recovery, or someone managing chronic pain, understanding the science behind red light therapy helps separate legitimate applications from overblown claims. Follow us on Instagram @wellnessblueprintpodcast with questions about this fascinating therapeutic approach or to suggest topics for future episodes.
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Hey everybody and welcome back to the Wellness Blueprint. I'm your host, dr Caleb Davis, and, as usual, I'm joined by Nicole Davis.
Speaker 2:Yes, hello, everyone.
Speaker 1:Welcome back, Nicole. It's been a while. Has it, though it feels like it's been a long time. I know our listeners are probably dying for new episodes, so I'm hoping that we can get something out today.
Speaker 2:Alright, let's do what we can for our fans.
Speaker 1:I've had a couple people tell me that they listen to our podcast on their commutes to work and such, and I even had someone who works with me said she was upset that she didn't have an episode to listen to. Recently I felt very motivated to get this episode out.
Speaker 2:All right, well, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Well, on special request from our dear friend Sterling, who is not a regular listener of the show, Way to call her out. Yeah, I know Well, I love calling Sterling out. She wanted us to cover an interesting topic, and that is red light therapy, also known as photobiomodulation or low-level light therapy.
Speaker 2:No wonder they call it red light therapy yeah.
Speaker 1:That rolls off the tongue a little bit easier than photobiomodulation, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Do you know anything about red light therapy? Have you heard of this?
Speaker 2:Well, I've heard of red light heat in saunas, stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Infra in saunas, stuff like that. Infrared, infrared, saunas, infrared yes, that's a thing. How about just having a red light shine on you? Have you ever heard of this as a treatment of any kind?
Speaker 2:I've seen beauty supplies where it's like a mask. It looks really weird like it looks like you're in. What was that movie with? What's his face?
Speaker 1:the guy you always want to punch, leonardo dicaprio I do not want to punch Leonardo DiCaprio, just let's say, since we're on a recorded internet broadcast, let me just say I'm not threatening anyone with any kind of violence.
Speaker 2:But it's like some sort of mask that you put on and it's got these little dots.
Speaker 1:LED lights. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're red lights and it's supposed to make you youthful.
Speaker 1:So is it fair to say that you don't have a detailed, intimate knowledge of red light therapy, but you are familiar with the concept.
Speaker 2:I am familiar that it exists as a health and wellness and beauty supplement.
Speaker 1:yes, You're not as much of an expert on this as you are, say, creatine or caffeine.
Speaker 2:That's right. Okay, you've never tried it yourself. No, I guess I've been in a sauna that uses infrared. I guess I've been in a sauna that uses infrared.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's not the same thing.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, this is an actual visible light that you can see where infrared is using it to heat. This is like a non-heating light element. Oh, okay, we'll get into the science a little bit. Let's talk about the origins and discovery of light therapy in general.
Speaker 1:For a long time people have been touting the healing properties of the sun. People recognize that getting outside in the sun is good for you in a multiple number of ways. I think most people understand that vitamin D is synthesized because of sunlight and a lot of people understand that being outside in general helps with your health. But the first real documented work on light therapy in science was in 1903 by a scientist named Niels Ryberg Finsen, and he won the Nobel Prize in medicine for using concentrated light rays to treat lupus vulgaris. Lupus vulgaris is a condition where there's actually tuberculosis bacteria in your skin causing these nodules. It has nothing to do with the autoimmune disease lupus, and he was using concentrated light rays to help reduce the significance of these lesions and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1903. Now this all advanced pretty rapidly after that. So you think about 1903, that's not that long ago. In the grand scheme of medical history, this all rapidly expanded in the 1960s with the discovery and invention of the laser. Nicole, do you know what laser stands for?
Speaker 2:All I know is that those sharks have some freaking laser beams on their head. Do?
Speaker 1:you think they were doing it for wellness purposes?
Speaker 2:Yes, I guess I do.
Speaker 1:I was not allowed to watch that movie as a child, so I can't really talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a depraved childhood, so yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:But in the 1960s the laser era was born. Laser stands for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. It's an acronym.
Speaker 2:I think I what's the stupid phrase? I was this year's old when I learned that word was actually an acronym.
Speaker 1:Laser is actually an acronym. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I learned that a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1:I always forget what it stands for, though I had to look it up. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I always remember what laser stands for, going to sit here and pretend that I always remember what laser stands for. While testing low-powered ruby lasers on mice in the 60s, there was a scientist named Mester who discovered that it was actually enhancing hair regrowth and wound healing and improving wound healing on these mice. He was actually trying to induce cancer with these lasers, but they were showing increased hair growth and wound healing in mice and that's how the more applied red light therapy was born. Some people consider this the birth of photobiomodulation. Now there's lots of types of light. Right, we talk about white light, blue light, red light. So do you understand what makes the difference between different colors of light? What makes different light different colors? What makes it visible to the human eye and not?
Speaker 2:I really don't remember a lot of physics from high school, I'll be honest with you. So no, I just know that blue light. We try to block it at night with our blue light blocking glasses. That's right.
Speaker 1:So there's a visible spectrum of light and the wavelength of the light is what determines what color it is and whether it's visible to us or not. So when we talk about red light and infrared light and near infrared light, it's based on its wavelengths. So visible red light is anywhere between 620 and 750 nanometers of wavelength. Now this naturally can penetrate your skin of about one to two millimeters and can just get into your superficial tissues of your skin on your body. The near infrared light is a slightly higher wavelength, at 750 to 1200 nanometers, and this can actually penetrate your skin fairly deep at four to five centimeters and actually can get into your joints in certain cases. So these are the two spectrums of light we're talking about in photobiomodulation or red light therapy.
Speaker 1:So how does light affect your health? How does this in any way give you any kind of medical benefit? That was my big question when I was researching this Because, I'll be honest, I've never really used a lot of red light therapy or studied it extensively. I was certainly aware of it in biohacking and wellness circles, but I've not really looked a lot into it Personally. I never thought that I would use it much because it seemed like a big hassle to stand in front of a red light array and that's why I'd never really been that curious. But after struggling with it I requested. I said this would be a great topic for the podcast.
Speaker 2:Well, let me just put in a philosophical thought there. Philosophical slash spiritual, Because without light nothing can grow, there would be no life at all. So really I'm not super surprised that light has certain benefits just from that weirdo realm.
Speaker 1:Tell me more about your weirdo realm. Is this the realm you're from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it certainly is man that's deep.
Speaker 1:It's deep stuff, nicole, that's deep, I like it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't want to get too religious, or whatever on the podcast. You just think about Genesis in the Bible. I know there's a lot of other beginning of life stories.
Speaker 1:The Lord said let there be red light and we'll all have beautiful skin. Everyone will be jacked and tan.
Speaker 2:That's the God of Tampa.
Speaker 1:Please, no sacrilegious is meant, just making a little fun there. So there's a cellular mechanism that actually explains why red light therapy might actually help our health. In certain scenarios, photons, which light is made up of, are absorbed by an enzyme called cytochrome C oxidase in mitochondria. Nicole, do you know what the mitochondria is?
Speaker 2:I used to yeah.
Speaker 1:You're supposed to say it's the powerhouse of the cell.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Nicole, everyone knows the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell Right, of course, isn't there a song about it. I'm sure there is yeah, I think there is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as everyone knows, the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And this helps enhance ATP production. We learned about ATP on our last episode with creat did.
Speaker 1:And ATP is essentially energy currency for your body. So this enzyme, cytochrome C oxidase, absorbs photons, enhances ATP production, reduces oxidative stress, releases nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator helping promote blood flow, and it helps modulate or downregulate inflammation in our bodies. So it's a number of ways that this can help us. Just to back up this point, there was a study called mitochondrial mechanisms of photobiomodulation in context of new data about multiple roles of ATP. Scientists love their names, their long article names. This was published in the photo medicine and laser surgery journal in 2010. And it found that light at 660 nanometers and up to 850 nanometers increased ATP synthesis by 20 to 30 percent and reduced oxidative stress markers by up to 40 percent in cell cultures. So big numbers in science. Whenever we see numbers that big, we know it's significant. However, I should note that this study looked particularly in a petri dish, so what we call an in vitro study, not an in vivo study, so it's not always directly applicable to real-world application.
Speaker 2:I think you're going to need to define in vitro an in vivo study, so it's not always directly applicable to real world application.
Speaker 1:I think you're going to need to define in vitro versus in vivo, because I've had you explain that to me like six times. Sure, so imagine in vitro just means outside of the human body we're doing these studies on cell cultures and seeing how they react and in vivo means in a human body, in a real living environment, so you can't always take an isolated experiment and apply it to a human being. So that's all that means. Cool, good, great question, though. There have been multiple studies looking at this particular effect and how it affects different organ systems in the human body. There have been studies showing that enhances wound healing, improves muscle recovery after exercise, reduces joint pain and stiffness, especially in patients with the diagnosis of arthritis, and there are some people who believe it can even support cognitive function in people who are undergoing neurodegenerative changes like Alzheimer's disease, and in general, it's been shown to improve mitochondrial function in aging cells. But again, like I said, a lot of those are in vitro studies.
Speaker 1:So the question I wanted to ask when I was reading all this data was how strong are the effects of red light therapy? Okay, we've proven that there is an effect, but is it really that useful? Are you going to notice a day-to-day change if you start doing red light therapy. What I came up with and this is going to be key because I'm, as we'll get into a little bit more there's just so many of these cheap products on the market that are going to say that they're red light therapy, that aren't going to do anything for you, so let's talk about some of the things that are actually important. The wavelength of the light has to be 600 to 1,100 nanometers, ideally.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you have to look up that parameter.
Speaker 1:Those parameters need to be advertised on any kind of product you're going to use. The dose and the duration are important. Too much light can actually have a negative effect, and too little is not going to do anything for you. This is called a biphasic dose response. Biphasic means exactly what I just said Too little, you get no effect. Too much, you get a negative effect. You can think of this just like being out in the sun. If you're out in the sun for two minutes, you're not going to feel a thing. If you're out in the sun for about 30 minutes, you might get a good dose of vitamin D and some other health effects. If you're out in the sun for three hours, you're going to be sunburned. So that would be a biphasic dose response, and the same thing holds true for red light therapy.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you can't just use red light willy-nilly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can't use it for too long either. And then this biphasic thing what is the recommended dosage of time? The dosage of time can vary between the irradiance, the power of your device. However, in general, most prescriptions are between 15 and 30 minutes, not to exceed 30 minutes, and I've seen as low as five to 10 minutes for the face or very sensitive areas, or a little bit longer for deeper tissues, up to 30 minutes. But in general, 15 to 20 minutes is probably going to be your best bet for most issues that you're looking for.
Speaker 2:I do wonder because, when it comes to using light to benefit things, just using an example as someone who has gotten her nails done at a salon, I've previously opted for gel nails I think they were gel. I don't go very often, but they dry your nails using the UV light. And I read some studies Don't know how good the studies are, though I'm going to put that out there that say that it increases your potential for skin cancer because of the concentrated UV light over your nails and that part of your skin on your fingers.
Speaker 1:Well, uv light can certainly cause DNA damage, so I can see that as a possibility.
Speaker 2:Right. So I just wonder, like with red light therapy, how many people are unwittingly exposing themselves to dangerous levels, thinking that they're actually doing something either convenient or healthy?
Speaker 1:for themselves, and I don't think that there is any ultraviolet light in most red light therapy applications, because that's a different wavelength of light. It has been shown that too long concentrated doses can cause damage anyway, though by different mechanisms, but there are some animal and human studies to show positive benefits from this. Atb production has been shown in a range of studies to increase by 30 to 200%. In some animal studies, reactive oxygen species have been shown to decrease significantly under therapeutic doses of red light therapy. Now, just because we're looking at these markers and cells animal studies Reactive oxygen species have been shown to decrease significantly under therapeutic doses of red light therapy. Now, just because we're looking at these markers and cells and seeing that they're improving, does that necessarily mean we're appreciating an outcome that we can actually observe as humans in our daily lives? That's the real question.
Speaker 2:You phrased that in a very smart manner. Can you dumb that down a bit?
Speaker 1:Okay, let's say I measure your blood pressure and I drop it by 20 points.
Speaker 2:It's because you're so handsome.
Speaker 1:Really, I thought I made your blood pressure go up. Do you actually notice a difference in your day-to-day life just because I dropped your blood pressure? We can measure certain things in science and in medicine, but we don't know if it actually makes what we call a clinical difference.
Speaker 2:I see.
Speaker 1:So that's my question Okay, we've raised your ATP production, we've decreased your reactive oxygen species, we've decreased inflammatory markers. Do you actually notice a day-to-day difference because of this? So clinical outcomes vary and there's lots of randomized, controlled trials that show modest benefit, where you actually do notice a difference, difference or some show no real benefit and that's why this red lights therapy remains controversial. However, the mechanism and what we're seeing happen in cells is real and is pretty well founded in science and I feel is fairly solidified in medicine. I do want to touch base a little bit on this biphasic dose response we talked about, because there have been multiple studies that have showed too much light, too long, too intense can actually increase these reactive oxygen species and cause mitochondrial stress and cellular inhibition if dosed too highly and too long. So one of my favorite things to do in these episodes is to look at real clinical studies and tell you about the outcomes. So that's what we're going to do at this part. We're going to look at medical and recovery applications of red light therapy.
Speaker 1:So, nicole, as you mentioned before, there is a lot of skin and beauty application in red light therapy and there's a lot of people who have suggested that red light therapy could increase collagen production in your skin and give you smoother, more supple skin because of this increased collagen. There was a study in 2014 that was a trial that looked at patient satisfaction, reduction of fine lines and wrinkles and skin roughness and intradermal collagen density with people who were getting red light therapy. This study found that there was significant improvement in skin appearance and intradermal collagen density for people who do regular red light therapy. So this is not a hoax. There are real benefits to red light therapy for skin quality. Now, a lot of people listening to this might not be that interested in this. I certainly am not really that interested in how my skin looks.
Speaker 2:I think that a lot of women, particularly in the 20 to anywhere above that cares, because a lot of women do stuff like Botox these days. This is why.
Speaker 1:I want you to weigh in. I think, you've already touched on this at the beginning of the episode. There's probably a whole lot of interest in this. It's just I'm just boring and want to think about other applications like arthritis.
Speaker 2:It's not that you're boring, it's just that you're not a woman, and you're also decently handsome, so you don't have to worry about it.
Speaker 1:Ladies and gentlemen, did you hear that I'm decently handsome?
Speaker 2:I knew if I just called you downright sexy, you'd be like excuse me, nicole, we're on the air.
Speaker 1:I am decently handsome. Put that down. I think that's what it said in my high school yearbook, Caleb Davis decently handsome.
Speaker 2:Most likely to maybe sort of succeed. A lot of women are worried about you. Think the whole beauty industry makes so much money. They're selling you products that are supposed to tighten your skin. They're supposed to help get rid of your double chin sagging skin. It's supposed to help with the fine line reduction. I can tell you I've got like six different products in my bathroom alone that are just kinds of moisturizers. There's like a vitamin C serum.
Speaker 1:And that's probably why there are all these cheap red light things you can buy off Amazon that probably won't do anything for you because they don't meet the correct specifications. Correct. So hopefully we'll get some answers for you so you know what to look for if you're interested in getting that shining, beautiful, thick collagen skin.
Speaker 2:That's right. So you can be more than decently handsome.
Speaker 1:I'll never get there. So, as a surgeon, I'm more interested in wound healing and skin regeneration. From that standpoint, there was a study published in 2019 this was also an in vitro treatment of human skin cells with red and infrared led lights and they assessed gene and protein expressions in these skin cultures and there was a significant increase in hyaluronic acid synthase and elastin gene expression and enhanced synthesis of hyaluronic acid, collagen and elastin proteins, which would lead us to believe that there would be enhanced wound healing properties. Again in vitro, not a real human study in this case. So, as we talked about, there are a number of in vitro studies talking about the effects of red light therapy, but there's some reasonable human and animal studies that we can talk about as well.
Speaker 1:One study now, nicole, I'm not going to list all of the names of these studies because they're like a paragraph long and they're just really super wordy and scientific, so I'm just going to talk about the quick hits on the effects here. Okay, you'll have to forgive me for not being super scientific about the quick hits on the effects here, okay, okay, you'll have to forgive me for not being super scientific. One study looked at muscle damage and muscle soreness in athletes who did intense exercise and then had red light therapy and it showed patients had less muscle breakdown and less muscle soreness and improved endurance scores after red light therapy. There's another study that looked at red light therapy and muscle recovery, finding that inflammatory markers were reduced in general by 30% versus those treated with a placebo. That's pretty significant. That's pretty significant. Essentially, you're undergoing less muscle damage and less muscle soreness when treating with red light therapy after exercise.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, like high profile athletes, could find this very beneficial.
Speaker 1:Yeah, potentially.
Speaker 2:Like CrossFitters who play in the CrossFit games or Olympic athletes. I don't know if this would be super beneficial for your everyday person who's just going to work out at the gym. What do you think?
Speaker 1:No, probably not. But back to the wound healing properties. This study found that wound closure accelerated by 35% and oncology increased by 50% in mice who had dermal abrasion. For arthritis, joint pain, knee pain there was a study that looked at knee arthritis and red light therapy showing that patients had a decrease of pain by 30%, functional improvement by 20% and a drop of inflammatory markers by 25%. Again, these are human studies and fairly significant changes.
Speaker 1:Looking at cognitive and neurologic health, there are studies that show that patients with traumatic brain injury had increased executive function and verbal memory. However, this study is a little bit limited because there was no control group and it's a very small sample size and they were self-reported outcomes which could be biased, so it was not a blinded study. Any of the studies that I looked at traumatic brain injury or neurodegenerative function were a little bit limited in the conclusions you could make because of study designs like that. For hair regrowth, there's a study that looked at hair count increased by 35% in androgenetic alopecia patients. So there was a systematic review of studies on low light level therapy for hair loss and it showed that it does increase hair density and growth in both genders, but its effectiveness is roughly comparable to traditional therapies like minoxidil or finasteride, which are medical prescription drugs to help with hair regrowth. However, if you're averse to taking these sorts of supplements, then you could consider red light therapies for hair regrowth if you're interested. Maybe I can finally grow that big, thick regrowth, if you're interested.
Speaker 2:Maybe I can finally grow that big, thick, luscious beard. Some people are really into beards.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to imagine you with a beard. The funny thing is, you see all these beauty masks with red lights in them. Does that mean all these ladies are growing beards? I don't think so. Again, on skin health, there was a study that showed that wrinkled depth reduced by 25% and collagen density increased by 20% in skin of the face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's huge for the beauty market.
Speaker 1:You're going to go out and get a red light mask now, aren't you?
Speaker 2:I was just thinking I've seen them on Costco. Maybe I should have you look at the stats We'll have to look at the stats.
Speaker 1:And then a topic we haven't touched on yet up to this point is acne of the face as well. A combination of red and blue light therapy for acne showed that there was a reduction of acne lesions by 60% and a reduction of redness by 40%. I think there's a lot that can be fleshed out still in these studies, because a lot of them are limited by their study design or by patient sample size or by blinded controls, and so in that way we can't make perfect conclusions. But I definitely do not think red light therapy in general is a complete bogus idea. I think the biggest problem I have with red light therapy is that there's just so many bogus products on the market there to waste your money.
Speaker 2:Sure, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That's in everything, except for you, baby. You're too good to be true.
Speaker 1:I'm too good to be true. Tell me more.
Speaker 2:Not on the air. I'll whisper sweet nothings to you later.
Speaker 1:Interestingly enough, there is a move for laser therapy for patients with orthopedic pain, like joint pain with arthritis. There's actually a company called OrthoLaser, who I have no affiliation with, who uses essentially lasers to help reduce patients' joint pain who are trying to avoid surgical intervention, like a knee replacement, for example.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah, because you did mention that some of the red light therapy, certain versions of it, can get into the joint level.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've talked about some joint pain problems, some wound healing. Mostly, we've talked about skin. That's probably the most highly studied area. Skin and hair loss Increase your skin suppleness and reduce lines. Maybe a chance that you're increasing mitochondrial function and ATP production. So let's take this to a real-world application now. So what are the things you need to consider if you want to go out and buy a device for red light therapy?
Speaker 1:Most of the red light therapy comes in boxes where it's a square with an array of LED lights and you basically just sit it close to your skin and just let it sit there. They make full length ones, some that are six feet tall, so you can just stand in front of it and hit your entire body. They even make a tanning bed type of thing where you lay in it, so you're getting the front and the back of your entire body at the same time. But I think those may run in the six figures in terms of cost. Those are very expensive.
Speaker 1:So most of the ones you're going to see online are like a small rectangle or square that covers a portion of your body and you'll have to shift it to other areas if you want to get full coverage. So the optimal range is going to be anywhere from 660 to 850 nanometers, and so you're going to want to look for that. If it's outside of that range, it's probably not going to be best for you. They have some devices that use only red light, which is 660 for skin, and they also have the near infrared, which is around that 850 for deeper tissues, but there are some devices that use both.
Speaker 2:So for the best bang, for your buck, you're going to want to have ones that have both spectrums.
Speaker 1:You also have to look at the irradiance rating and that's the power output. Remember we talked about underpowered products that are just selling you cheap things that don't have enough power output. The range you're going to want to look for is anywhere from 20 to 200 milliwatts per square centimeter Milliwatts.
Speaker 2:Milliwatts.
Speaker 1:I had multiple people comment on your millimole thing from our last episode.
Speaker 2:I still love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, millimole, millimole.
Speaker 2:So I thought maybe milliwatts would get you Well, it just made me think I was actually thinking in the shower earlier today that I really want to read Back to the Future 1.21 gigawatts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so milliwatts just reminds me of that. So the power output you're looking for again is 20 to 200 milliwatts per square centimeter at the treatment surface. The higher radiance may allow you to be able to have a shorter treatment time with the same effect, not having to stay in front of that area as long as we talked about earlier. Your coverage area is something you would want to consider. You have small spot devices or you can have whole large panels you stand in front of, but obviously those are going to be much more expensive. Then you also have to think about EMF electromagnetic frequency, and also a flicker of the lights. Higher end brands are going to have lower EMF and have less flicker, and some people have noticed that flicker can irritate their senses and give them migraine headaches or cause Headaches and nausea. So you want to have a lower flicker level on your led lights.
Speaker 2:Getting the sense that if this device is not expensive then it's probably bs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you pretty much nailed it, and that's one of the reasons I really haven't done it, because I've looked into it before and I just found that the large, high quality panels are quite the investment, and that's ultimately why I have not done it, because I didn't think it would really be worth the money. To be quite honest with you, however, I think that there's good evidence to show that it does have some benefit, and it's just going to be dependent on your personal preferences. So red light therapy does have promise. Some of the claims around red light therapy are quite overblown, though. Research suggests that there's no strong evidence to support that there's any sort of weight loss or hormone optimization with red light therapy.
Speaker 1:Safety is generally good for red light therapy, but there are risks, can include potential eye damage if you don't use goggles and don't use a lot of caution, and so that's something you definitely have to consider.
Speaker 1:So, at the end of the day, my take home is red light therapy can definitely show improvement in hair regrowth, wound healing, skin quality, potentially reduce your pain if you have an arthritic joint. However, you have to be very careful because there's a lot of products out there that are going to just waste your money and waste your time and aren't going to help you, and I think the average person probably isn't going to spend a lot of time and money and researching to make sure they get the proper pieces of equipment, although this might be very beneficial for you. If you have some sort of skin condition or if you have severe arthritis and you're trying to avoid surgery, it may be something you want to consider and you're trying to avoid surgery, it may be something you want to consider. And if you're a high-performance athlete, like you said, perhaps this might be just that extra edge to help you recover after the gym or after whatever sport that you're competing in, just a little bit better than you would before, without having to resort to some sort of illegal drug use.
Speaker 2:Or beauty professionals, or somebody who's interested in spending a lot of money on their personal facial care which that happens.
Speaker 1:Someone who is decently handsome like myself. Maybe I could benefit from it.
Speaker 2:But long and short of it, I'm probably not going to get any red light therapy devices. I wanted Sterling to chime in and let us know which device that she had purchased. I probably should have asked her before we started recording this episode, but anyway, I wanted to look at it with you and see what you could tell on whatever link to the product. Oh, this is potentially within the range. Chances are it's just on Amazon and it's probably like $40.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it's $40, it's probably not going to be. It's probably useless yeah.
Speaker 2:And, potentially, at worst, damaging.
Speaker 1:Just to summarize remember look at your wavelengths, look at your irradiance, your power. Make sure you don't neglect your eye protection. Don't use it for too long. Remember biphasic dose response. Sometimes more is not always better. And don't assume all red light is equal. Let the buyer beware and make sure you're buying the correct product. You're going to want to look for a wavelength between 660 to 850 nanometers.
Speaker 2:Look for irradiance or power output between 20 and 200 milliwatts per centimeter square. And then this biphasic thing what is the recommended dosage of time?
Speaker 1:The dosage of time can vary between the irradiance and power of your device. However, in general, most prescriptions are between 50 and 30 minutes, not to exceed 30 minutes, and I've seen as low as 5 to 10 minutes for the face or very sensitive areas, or a little bit longer for deeper tissues, up to 30 minutes, but in general, 15 to 20 minutes is probably going to be your best bet for most issues that you're looking for.
Speaker 2:And if you're doing the face, just to restate your recommendation of wear eye protection.
Speaker 1:I learned a lot from that study. Hopefully people found it interesting as well. I think probably the biggest takeaway would be to remember the stats on what's important for a product, not to buy something cheap and useless and not to overuse it and protect your eyes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have to say. If I had to choose between creatine and red light therapy, I guess I'd choose creatine.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a no-brainer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm all about the creatine and I've had multiple people come and say, hey, we're going to take creatine now after listening to your episode. Yeah, I'm not sure I sold anyone on the red light therapy for this one. Pretty interesting stuff though, lots of promise. If it's something that hits home for you, then I'd recommend you go ahead and try it. If you've had any experiences with red light therapy, have had good experiences or bad experiences, we'd love to hear about it. You can follow us at wellness blueprint podcast on Instagram. We also have our Facebook page and you can also find us at dr Caleb Daviscom. If anyone else has any other ideas of topics they'd like covered, please feel free to send us a message on drcalebdaviscom. It's also easy to send us a message on Instagram at wellnessblueprintpodcast. I think we're going to talk about saunas next time.
Speaker 2:Really, but I still need a sauna hat.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that in the next episode. Okay, we'll see you in a couple weeks to break down saunas and their health benefits and hot yoga.
Speaker 2:That is natural territory to talk about Hot yoga. Don't give me that face.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to tell you this, nicole, but I'm planning a yoga episode, an entirely yoga episode.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, Be still my heart.
Speaker 1:As always, be humble, be happy, be healthy. We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks, nicole, you're welcome, decently handsome Dr Big Guy. Maybe we won't see you in two weeks.
