Episode 5 Part 1: Exploring The Eight limbs of Yoga With Katja Patel

In this episode I'm joined again by my lovely Yoga teacher Katja Patel to begin exploring The Eight Limbs of Yoga. We thought we might be able to summarise each of the limbs within one episode but we definitely bit off more than we could chew here, and once we got going we found ourselves diving deeply into the many layers, meanings, practical applications and interpretations of each of the limbs. 

The Eight Limbs were recorded in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras as a systematised approach to a yoga practice and they describe each of the interrelating and enmeshed "brances" of Hatha Yoga. Each branch or limb is part of a holistic system so one should not be practiced without the others in some form.

If you missed my first conversation with the lovely Katja where I introduce her and all her incredible knowledge and share her contact details in the shownotes you can listen here: 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3j3PdKyA0fCLl7ssAPS8CW?si=X97QbT-sRiO55NcfYY3XoA

Ifyou also missed the episode on the Yamas & Niyamas the first two limbs, its worth taking a listen here: 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0OzBN9kWyvbpkLJMO1dwxZ?si=7HxV69iqRk-ykfezcbOSQg

If you have any comments, questions or anything you would like to hear about related to this podcast, I'd love to hear from you.

Please feel free to message me on Instagram or email me here: info@shraddhayayoga.co.uk

You can follow me on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/shraddhaya_yoga/

Or why not find out how we can work together with Yoga & meditation classes, courses and 1:1 coaching here: https://www.shraddhayayoga.co.uk/

With love and light,

Helen xxx

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Welcome to Be Still Unnoticed, a Yoga podcast. Join me, your host, Yoga and Meditation Instructor Helen Taylor, to dive deeply into the vast ocean of wisdom that is yoga. Explore with me how these ancient practices can help heal and elevate us physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually in an ultra-modern world. Together we'll deepen our practice, explore our connection to divinity and our own inner landscapes, with the help of special guests, guided meditations, how-to's, and all so much more. Yoga has the incredible power to change your life on every level. And it all begins with stillness. Now let's begin. Welcome to episode five, season two. Welcome back. Today I have the lovely Katya Patel with me, again, amazing yoga teacher, my yoga teacher trainer, and Ayurvedic lifestyle consultant. She has over 30 years of yogic experience, shall we say. And today we thought we'd have a go at giving an overview of what the eight limbs of yoga are, but we definitely bit off more than we could chew because as we started talking about them and really delving deeper, we realised how many different layers and levels there are to each and every one of them. I found it to be an amazing conversation as always, and I really hope that you do too. And we're gonna do this, this is part one of two, so Kachi will be coming back in the next couple of weeks. In this episode, we look at the Yamas and Niyamas, Asana, Pranayama, and Pratchahara. So make yourself a lovely cup of tea if you're on a long drive. This one is perfect for that, and I really hope you like this one. Now let's get to it. Here we are again. Hello Helen. Yes, here we are again.

SPEAKER_01: 3:04

How are you? How are you today? I'm good. Um uh yeah. Feeling refreshed and energized.

SPEAKER_02: 3:13

Are you? That's amazing on this very dark wintry autumnal afternoon. What's making you feel so energized and refreshed today?

SPEAKER_01: 3:28

I don't know. It's just the day, you know. I just get on with everything that I needed to do, and uh so far everything worked sort of okay. So uh so that's all. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:44

I love those days. Nothing specific. When everything goes to plan, right? Right, yeah. Well, full disclosure, we've just had a few tech issues. We had to reboot and jig around. Um that's right. But we're here, we made it. So welcome, welcome again. And I for anyone who um hasn't listened to the previous episode, I did a really lovely episode with Katya, um episode 14, season one. I'll link it in the show notes, um, where we had a really beautiful conversation and I properly introduced Katya who is my still is my yoga teacher. She taught me how to be a teacher. She's an incredible teacher who's been uh working in yoga, teaching, learning, growing, doing all the things for 30 plus years. Um and she's an Ayurvedic consultant as well. All around amazing yogi. So I thought I'd invite her back on, and today we're gonna be talking about the eight limbs of yoga. So the eight limbs of yoga, catchy in a nutshell, say where they're from and what they are, and it just in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01: 5:15

In a nutshell, they were introduced uh in the Patanjali Yoga Sutras um as a means to um, you know, get frazzled when we have these situations that we had earlier. So if we if we are going with the eight limbs, then we uh we are more balanced and um we are overcoming our um obstacles that we all naturally have um a little um easier. We are naturally uh more, I would say, more resilient. Uh that's probably what I think what they make us uh and uh sort of balance out the ups and downs of uh of our day-to-day life. Um yeah. So that's what I would say in a nutshell, that's what it are, sort of a like uh a roadmap.

SPEAKER_02: 6:19

Yeah, and I like that, and I think um lots of people don't actually really even know what they are, what they what they mean. They know one or two of the limbs or branches, and several yoga books they have a picture of a tree, don't they? They have this tree and the limbs, yeah, the limbs are like the branches of the tree that actually all put together um holistically create um a yoga practice. So, from my understanding, you really shouldn't separate any of them, it's about them all being combined for a true practice, which is yes, absolutely, all being combined and um they seem linear, and I think they also work in that uh in a sense of progression, sort of from one to the other.

SPEAKER_01: 7:18

Um, but I think we all need to combine them all uh and uh into yeah, into everyday life uh in one way or the other. So in Ayurveda, for example, you need to uh um have the six tastes all in one meal and the best in every meal, so then you don't get cravings and uh uh anything in between, and you are well nourished. And the eight limbs, I think they are a little bit the same, so you need to include them all into your day and uh not just on the map mat, but also off the mat, um, so that uh yeah, so that you stay a little bit more rounded and um stress doesn't uh get to you so easily, or um the ups and downs like uh like we said earlier, they they they are a little less um drastic.

SPEAKER_02: 8:27

Yeah, totally. I think um they're they're so worth talking about because I think when you first for me when I first started learning about yoga, some of the some of this stuff can seem a bit dry and a bit dusty, you know, not not very servicey.

SPEAKER_01: 8:48

Not not very like hand plan, oh yeah, I want to learn this. It's not very glamorous, is it? No, no, no. They aren't. Uh I think until you you start um you start looking at them and see how they make so much sense. And um, and then I think it is also the language uh that that that comes from the the sutras haven't been translated in that they are uh like two and a half thousand years uh uh or something uh like that old. And uh so obviously they had a different language, it was a different time. Um they um they used minimal words to um to make them more potent, and um and we just need to bring them more into what is relevant for us now, and then I think then we see uh that they make uh very much sense, that they uh help us, and that we also can do quite a lot with them, you know, and that we can integrate them um quite a lot.

SPEAKER_02: 10:07

Yeah, absolutely. I think they're they're just an incredible kind of guide book for living, really, in in many ways, for your practice. Um that's right. So let's just get straight into it, shall we? So I've got them written down in front of me. Number one and number two are the yamas and the niamas. And I've actually done a separate episode on these because I absolutely love them. But let's start with the yamas for anyone that hasn't listened to that episode, and again I'll pop it in the show notes. So the yamas, how would you describe the yamas?

SPEAKER_01: 10:53

Well, the yamas are, I've I think then they are ways how we interact with ourselves and with others, and uh they help us, I think, to f first and foremost interact with ourselves better so that we um interact with others in the same way. So let's say, for example, the first one, which is uh probably the most known one, uh Ahimsa, um, which is often translated as not to harm anyone. Um and obviously, we most of us are quite peaceful people in terms of sort of what means harm, uh we think, or I'm not harming anyone, but uh we always start with ourselves, and uh I think we do ourselves quite a lot of harm uh when we go against what we want, putting ourselves down all the time, not thinking that we are enough, good enough, any of that, you know, that is harmful to us, and from this uh thinking of uh scarcity, um, we are also um projecting that onto others, or we are not um we are not um being as kind to others as we could, or we are kinder to others and uh still putting ourselves down. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? So in that way, I think um they just make us think about how we are structured, what is important to us, uh, what do we want and really need? Do we really need things? Are we valuing what we already have? Um, or are we looking at what the others have and we don't, and we get upset about that? Because at the end, you know, the uh the the eight limbs are uh like we said earlier, they are sort of like a roadmap towards um um being more content, being more or happier with ourselves and with the life that we live. And I think it is quite interesting that they start or that Patanjali starts with that, not with the yoga postures, um, but we sort of with a mental setup.

SPEAKER_02: 13:44

Definitely, and I think that says a huge amount about what let's use the word true yoga practice really is all about, and it's not asana is is number three, but then there's a whole nother four that are to do with the mind. So asana is a very small part, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 14:07

It is, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 14:09

Quite a lot of yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

An important part, absolutely, but uh yes, not the only part.

SPEAKER_02: 14:19

No, and perhaps not as important as here in the West we think it is, but we'll talk more around that, I think. So Yamas and Niyamas. Um, I've also in in the other episode I talked about them. They're sometimes described as the attitudes and behaviors towards ourselves and towards others and our environment, aren't they? And and actually they're a really beautiful kind of code to live by in all ages, like even now, they are so so relevant, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01: 14:55

Yeah, they are. I think they are universal, they are timeless because they address human behavior. Yeah, and uh human behavior is still the same as it was then, as it's now because it's the way we are structured, um, it's the way we are uh the mind thinks and uh the way we process that, and nothing has changed much on that. Yeah, absolutely. And they are they are quite timeless, and uh um and because they are five of uh of each, maybe um someone might think it's a bit too much, uh, and I can't, you know, I can't look at all of that. But I think just to maybe look at one or two and see how um how they can be integrated into the thinking, into the life, um, um more sort of as a curious way to address them, more um see how uh what happens with me here, um, rather than thinking oh, I need to fit them all in, and then only I can uh step on the mat. Um it is also when we are practicing asana, we can explore these very nicely when in our practice, you know, how we observe ourselves and um, but then also as teachers, you know, how we see others, how we uh interact with others, and um how we teach yoga.

SPEAKER_02: 16:53

It's it's all self-inquiry, isn't it? It's all part of the ongoing practice, yeah. And I I love that you said this isn't like a set of rules, is it? It's not rules to live by. You must be like this and you must do like it. It's literally it's guidance. It's why not try try this, bring this into your life.

SPEAKER_01: 17:16

And that, yeah, there really are because they also have effects, you know, they make us calmer, they make us more content. Uh, because when we look at them, what they really mean um on the long term uh in our day-to-day life, uh, contentment, santosha, for example. Um, if we would always be content with what we have, uh, doesn't mean that we are complacent, it just means that we can still strive for something different, and we think, yeah, that would be nice to have, but still um see also and acknowledge what we have now is already quite a lot. And uh and that when we when we invite this contentment, that it naturally makes us, yeah. What is there more, you know, when you're content, uh there there is not much that rattles you so easily.

SPEAKER_02: 18:30

Yes, and then and then the gratitude comes through, doesn't it? Because when you f think, okay, what have I what do I have? And this is enough, and then I think without even thinking about it, gratitude comes in, which is we all know is just so beautiful and and so powerful in and of itself. So they do link through, don't they, to to these different mindsets that are just I think we we we can really get I think that Santosha that contentment is really important right now because we're so graspy in our current culture and climate in the West, aren't we? Like, oh what's that new shiny thing, you know? I need this, I need that, I need this, I need that thing.

SPEAKER_01: 19:22

That's right. I mean, we we always had this. That's I think that's part of human nature because then they had the same issues clearly. But I mean we have now just a multitude of what streams into our senses, you know, what we can what we can buy, what we have, what all of that, there's much more out there, sort of uh a life that we need to aspire to, uh, a material life that we need to aspire to, a house, how that needs to look like, you know, and and if we are if we don't have that, then we come back to, you know, we are not enough. Yeah, um, I'm not as worthy as uh someone else, because I'm not as wealthy as someone else. And and it's I think it is just really like uh they make us check in more. Is that really what we need? Is that really what we want as well? Um, because also means to present things to us, get more and more sophisticated in the way they talk to us uh and tell us what we need and what we don't need, because very clever people are formulating these things that know the mind really well, you know, and our behavior. So they they can be um seen as well as just check-ins, you know. Is that is that something that I need? Is that something that I need to do? Is that the way I need to talk? Um, and um can I formulate things differently? Um, what is the impact of what I'm doing here? Um, and uh impact on my family, on my friends, on my students, you know. I ask that, I think they are ever so valuable.

SPEAKER_02: 21:25

Yeah, very, very valuable, and totally translatable to, like you said, they're timeless, so totally translatable to any time. Um they're the yamas and the yamas. I think let's move on to number three, uh, which is asana. Asana, if you don't know it, it's the physical yoga poses and postures.

SPEAKER_01: 21:56

Yes. It's also the seat, you know, the way you sit. Asana is also this little little tiny carpet that you sit on when uh when you meditate. That's also called an asana. Yeah. Asanas. I think they are also important because they are that's how we can connect with everything else and the mind through the body, because the body is the most tangible part of the uh uh the the eight limbs. The breath is also tangible, what comes next, but uh the uh the asana is uh even more because we can feel our body, we we know you know what it can and can't do, we can uh we can strengthen it, we can uh lengthen it, and it makes us just feel good as well. That's why people love us and us and this this physical practice, yeah. And I think this physical practice is maybe now even more important because we tend to move less, you know. We tend to be more confined in a space where we work, then we sit, we commute, then we sit at home. Um, there's not much of uh well these different varieties of movements that uh that uh people had in the past, naturally, and um and also yeah, it is tangible enough for us to understand and to to yeah to feel it and to see the effect before and after.

SPEAKER_02: 24:11

Yeah, totally, and I think there's there's actually lots when you really think about there's lots of different angles of looking at Asana. I totally agree with everything that you've just said because it's totally relatable, everyone has a body, so everyone can you you can use that as as a vehicle, as a tool, um, really also for self-inquiry, can't you? So tuning into the sensations in your body and listening to your body and being really bringing you into the present moment through your movements, your sensations, that that level of self-awareness. That's what I find really powerful about asana. And then also it's it's tapas as well, it's part of uh of the niyama of tapas, which is keeping creating heat and cleansing the body and um keeping the body healthy and supple and yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 25:18

I mean, in the in the past, when you when you look at the Hatayoga Pratipika, um the body, the asanas, they are all the majority of them, they are uh they are used for um getting rid of any ailments that we have, and uh and most of them also aiding digestion. Um, because if we are not digesting uh properly uh what whatever we eat, then uh the body has to do something with it, and uh uh illnesses can come. So this this physical part is, I think it is really important um as uh to stay healthy, but like you said, also you know, to to look in, to connect to to different layers through the body, to raise the awareness, to to uh you know how we feel, how does the body feel? We mostly have good or bad, um, or aches and uh um aches and um and pain, but um not on that uh little deeper level, you know, that we feel the energy, that we feel a flow of the energy uh through the body. And um and it just helps us to be more aware of uh our the status of the body, not not in terms of the value, but you know, checking in, you know, what what what is what are we today, how does the body feel today, um, to also adapt to the practice that uh that we want to that we want to do, um that we acknowledge that maybe we feel tired and we need to tone it down a little bit and address that, or we feel uh some niggling, and we know we need to also be mindful of that uh in uh in our practice. Uh so for that, the awareness of the body and what happens within and how it feels, I think it's quite important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:44

In fact, um I was teaching the other day and just it came to mind that you know you start, you start with your body, and it's almost like starting at the ground, at ground level with the earth. It's tangible, you know, earth elements matter in the body. And then actually, the more you go up through the limbs or through the practices, you you come up and up and up more towards you know the cosmos and the the loftier. Yeah, yeah. Of the mind and consciousness. Um but you couldn't have one without the other, could you? You know, you couldn't um No.

SPEAKER_01: 28:31

If you if you no, you uh you do you do, you need the body, you know, you need uh we live in that, like you earlier said, this vehicle, and it is that vehicle that uh that helps us uh experiences, uh experience all the different um whatever we can experience as a human uh as human beings, but also um moving uh into the the subtler uh energies uh that uh through pranayam, through meditation, through concentration, you know what comes uh a little further down in the uh in the eight limbs.

SPEAKER_02: 29:18

Yeah, it's um it's it's super important, but I do still think, like we said earlier, that there is a bit too much emphasis placed on it in the West. Still starting to change, isn't it? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 29:33

Yeah, yeah, I I you know it's easy because uh this is what we can uh this is what we can see, we can work with. We is let's say you you uh work towards headstand, for example, you know, you make progress, you prepare all the different parts uh of the body, you create the strength and uh you create. The confidence, you overcome the fear, and uh all of a sudden there you are, you can do that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:07

Um, and um for that, um what was the question what with the body we can have the physical part and it's important. So I think so.

SPEAKER_01: 30:35

Sorry, got it back. So the physical part, it is important um because it helps us to go into uh more confidence, to overcome uh fear, um, and then these are all transferable um processes, you know. We can these we can straight take into our day-to-day life, into our job, into our relationships, and and maybe stand up for us more, or we we there is something that we always wanted and we have never dared to do that. But if you can all of a sudden stand on your head, you think, well, I can do that as well, at least and can try it. And for for that, it is super important that we uh that we work with the body. But then you're right, if that's the the ceiling, the body, then I think it goes more into look what I can do, rather than um, okay, it helps me, then it look, and then you can go, you can go into that same trap as you can go with everything else, where you think, oh no, I need to do this now to be good, you know. I need to, I need to balance, need to have this balance in my repertoire to be to be really good. And then I need to maybe let the world know this is all I can do. So if you feel if you if your self-worth depends on uh the asana practice, and that's the only thing that you draw from it, then um it is just as unhealthy as uh anything else that you do.

SPEAKER_03: 32:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 32:25

Yeah. So that's why we these uh subtler levels that come afterwards, um, and maybe seeing it as a means to, um, that is also needed very much.

SPEAKER_02: 32:44

Oh, definitely. And and it really is, like you say, transferable. It's best to look at it as a tool, you know. That's right. And as a tools, aren't they, that help us become, you know, more self-aware, like you said, more confident, more in your body, more in the moment. Um, and also just to be in your body. Like I know some people that are so unself-aware and kind of floating around in their heads, in their minds, and often they're very clumsy, um, and not grounded. And I'm sure you've got lots of Ayvedic reasons for these people. Um, yeah. And I feel like just kind of grabbing them and just gently saying, come into your body, like come into yourself because you're so floaty and out there.

unknown: 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:45

That's right, because the body or coming into the body, like you said, you know, that helps us also to step away from what the mind creates, because it creates it creates thoughts and stories and all things, you know, it creates urgency that we then blindly follow because we think, oh my god, this is this is what I need to do now. And they are they are getting and you get into that state where lots of people, when they come into yoga class at the beginning, that's where they are. They just rush there, you know. They are in the morning, maybe just put the kids, get them ready, got them to school, maybe there's traffic, then they come and they already rushed off their feet. But then when they go, that's what the yasana practice does. It then sort of takes them out of their head into the body, and then it allows them to see, well, actually, what was the big deal? Yeah. Right? And uh and from and to come from that place, then go back into your day-to-day life, then you will you you meet other people differently. Uh, you meet uh, you know, people that want something from you differently, you meet um situations that are maybe not as uh easy uh differently, and it it just brings you back into that sattvic space, into that balance space where you can then act and think, okay, this is how I'm going to do that, and not what do I need to do to please someone else or what I think others expect of me. And uh, and that's what the Yasana practice does, and why it is really important, I think nowadays, really important to take us all out of the head, into the body, step back and say, look, do that. And then we talk again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:55

It's like um, it's like a reset button, isn't it? It's so grounding, exactly. It just pulls you, like you said, it pulls you out of your mind, into the body, into the present. And and by the way, it can be as simple as anything, can't it? It doesn't need to be complicated in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_01: 36:17

It can be not it can be, you know, you lift arms with the in breath and you lower them with the out breath, and you do that five times, and uh then you already think differently. Yeah, yeah. You sit on your chair and you do a little twist both sides, and you think, wow, and uh it is really it is this creating that space for the pause, for the yeah, the pause of the mind, you know, to come out of this uh out of that whatever it runs into, um, to to say, stop for a moment and uh do something different, feel into the body, get me into that pose, keep me in that pose, get me out of it, breathe here, breathe there, because that's what it is, right? So that you need to have everything focused on the body to stand in triangle or to uh to do a revolving triangle and get your balance and get your rotation and get everything done, breathe, look here, look there, uh ground through that, anchor here, you know. That every there's not time to think of, oh god, I need to do shopping as well. And and oh, what did this person say to me? And so it all goes. Yeah. Right? That's why it is important, I think. Really, really important.

SPEAKER_02: 37:57

Um I love this because it's so it's so important, I think, to have these conversations and really look at it from all angles because it could be so easy just to go, oh asana, it's just about keeping your body fit and healthy. Ding dong in a little box. But really, there's so much to it, and it's a real, like you say, it's a real grounding point actually for the other limbs. The next one we're going into is pranayama. Pranayama.

SPEAKER_01: 38:31

That's right. Pranayama, breathing, and even more important, obviously, than because breathing is something that we need to do. You know, we we can stop eating for a while, we but we can't stop breathing for for just a few minutes, and um and it also connects you know the mind and the body, it's the breath that moves from one to the other and brings them together. Um the breath is also much more powerful, I feel, breathing, than um the physical practice, but also more subtle and not so easy to be felt. Um because you need to have a awareness of your body to feel how the breath expands the body and releases and where. And um, yeah. So hence that's what I think is it on uh one level up, you know, you need to prepare your body at least a little bit to work with a breath. And I think we need to distinguish between breathing exercises or or breathing like the three-part breath, um, which is really a good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:10

I was just gonna say actually, I I think I think we should also pause and just explain because not everybody might know what pranayama actually is. So, so Katya, in a in a little nutshell, what would you describe? Because there is a difference, isn't there, between breath work, which is very popular now, and pranayama.

SPEAKER_01: 40:31

Yes. I think pranayama is directing the energy, the prana. The that's the pranayama is the the the uh pranid and prana energy, which is the energy of our life. So it is the life force uh um that moves into our body and out of it constantly. And uh as it moves into the body, we can, or the body can do different things with it. Uh so it can move into different uh into different areas, it can move up and down, it can move all around, uh, it can stay in the digestive area, uh uh more so. So it can have a downward energy, it can have an upward energy. So there's uh and pranayam for me is directing or learning how to direct that energy uh into the body throughout the body, and um and with that really working on um stilling the mind even more. Because the breath obviously is um um what is what is now um also scientifically proven is we breathe deep, the nervous system switches. Yeah, it's so powerful. And uh exactly so powerful and so fast powerful. So um and so the the the breath works directly with the nervous system and the breathing, the pranayam, different pranayam techniques, they can uh make the nervous system also more resilient, can calm it down, but can maybe agitate it a little bit to make it resilient, and to keep it level, to keep it balanced or to slow it down. And um and the uh Yoga Sutras to say, you know, the pranayama is what lifts the veil, sort of what lifts this the fog that is in uh you know in our in our mind to see clearly. So that's the power of uh of the breath. It's so powerful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 43:09

It's it's really kind of very it's kind of a miracle, actually. And and I know I've spoken this about about this before in in other episodes about the nervous system and about the power of the breath, but I find I find it incredible that it's something that we have control over. Yes, we have our autonomic systems in the body that you know we can breathe without thinking. Luckily, you know, we can breathe without relaxing, you know, the breath. We don't have to consciously think about it, do we? But the amazingness of the human body in mind is that we can choose to change it, we can choose to manipulate and take control of it, therefore influencing how our body, the state of our body and the state of our mind. And I just that literally blows my mind when I think about it.

SPEAKER_01: 44:12

Yes, it is. I think it is, it it goes already a little bit beyond uh what we can grasp the breath and what we can what we can do with it, and we can put ourselves into different states uh actively, consciously, with uh with a breath. And so this is something that my teacher always uh was very much um adamant about is to see that bigger picture, to um that we need because the further we go into the practice, the more we uh deal with the mind and how we feel, and and this can go into all let's say it like this the uh the breath brings energy, and so does the the uh the the asanas, they bring both energy, and the energy just goes into what is there, the energy is not just going into all our good or the good side of us, you know, it goes into all of that, and that's why the yamas and the niyamas are also really important that we're becoming more and more aware of um ourselves, our behavior, and what that energy does with us. So if we want to take it for our progress for us to make us maybe a better person, or uh to for us to help us along on our spiritual journey, then um the body needs to be prepared, the nervous system needs to be prepared, and also our ego needs to be prepared so that uh the more we generate through those practices that they go into the direction where we want to have them. Um if you practice um maybe too much or too fast, it can agitate the nervous system as well. And uh, the practice that was supposed to sort of help you and uh calm you and um develop you makes you just really agitated and cranky, and uh and you can uh feel it in your body, and uh you can feel really uncomfortable um with that excess energy that is there, but it is not in the right places. Yes, and I think from that, because yeah, so when you when um especially I think in the Hata Yoga Pratypika as well, so lots of practices are not really spoken about. Uh, there was always that notion that they are secret, and I think they are not secret because um because they are powerful, and um but they are in order to work for us, um everything needs to move along at the same time, so we can't just um develop the body and leave the mind at the at alone, you know, uh so we don't look at this uh mental um side of us, what the yama and the niyama address. Yeah. Yeah, so in order to grow and to make that all um helpful for us um and supportive, um yeah, all of that needs to come in, continue to see it uh on that energetic level, you know, a little more uh take it more serious, I think, and also have respect for uh for these practices.

SPEAKER_02: 48:27

Yes, and I I think that's so important because people can be very kind of gun-ho, can't they, and throw themselves 100% into some really quite strong energetic stuff. Um some of some of the kundalini practices are are very strong, and and if you haven't got the guidance of the proper teacher, you can you can get yourself in a spot of bother. Um yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So and while you were talking, sorry, just briefly, while you were talking, I realized uh quite an important point with the with the asana. And we can really, as we're talking about it, we can really see, can't you, how they're all interrelated. And you know, there's that that you could separate them off, but you actually once you get into it, they are so combined as part of the whole yes practice, aren't they? Um just a little point with the asana. Um many teachers say that you know asana was developed so that um people could sit in meditation to keep the body strong for the next step.

SPEAKER_01: 49:48

That's right. Yes, to keep the body strong to sit.

SPEAKER_02: 49:56

Which I think a lot of people are just not aware of, are they? And then and then when you bring in the prana pranayam, working with those energies as you were saying.

SPEAKER_01: 50:11

No, it is, you know, it it it moves, as well as you can earlier. You can it can be progressive. Yeah. No, you you start with the with the asana, and then uh you prepare the body, and then you uh you start with the uh more structured breathing practices. But uh that's why I say, you know, you have the three-part breath. That's why I think that we will start it. The three-part breath um is for me the base of all the breathing techniques. So three-part breath is breathing into your belly, into your ribs, into your upper chest. So you use these three areas, you can fill them in one go, open those, prepare those is already such a big step towards, um, towards pranayam, because it's not easy, and not everyone can do uh can do that so quickly, um, depending on how the body is as well, you know, and uh depending on our awareness. So uh establishing this three-part breath is already so unbelievably beneficial, um, that all of that calming the mind, that will do, you know, and then coming into different even Nadi Shodan, what we see here uh in the West as sort of deep breathing technique, which it is, but for the Hata Yoga Pratika, it's still sort of a preparatory uh breathing technique, you know, it's still cleansing of the nadis, the the finer channels. So uh even that is where we are, you know, and um, and this is what we need to develop um and to go further.

SPEAKER_02: 52:12

Um you know, everything needs to be prepared, the body, the breath needs to be prepared as well, um, and uh in order to go further to the next step, which is which is before we go on to the next one, can I circle back and because we did say uh I'd like to ask you what the the qu what the difference is between breath work and pranayam? What would you say the difference is?

SPEAKER_01: 52:48

Because there is a bit of confusion and people tend to there's a bit of a confusion, and I I mean I have never practiced breath work, so I really don't know exactly. I know it is a faster way to work through plots, but pranayam is as you can see from the steps that we have already looked at, you know, it is uh probably a slower version of that, more developed, the body goes through certain things, the everything grows by the time you are able to do pranayam, um your body has already uh is able to is stronger, you know, is uh is able to maybe sit longer, sit better in terms of being more upright, being more relaxed in that. So that the energy can flow around the body. And uh the mind is more patient and uh can also deal with that sitting there uh better because it is the the awareness is more there, the patience with that awareness is there. It's not like we're sitting here, what are we doing? This is so boring, you know. Oh my arm hurts, how when is that finishing? And uh you do five minutes and you think, well, that must have been half an hour because that's how it fell. Um so that's why I think it is it is slower, a slower process um with um with pranayam. It lifts the veil, so it means um, you know, whatever obstacles and blocks are there for you, they will be lifted and addressed with that as well, either with a work on the physical body or with a work on the energetical body.

SPEAKER_02: 54:58

I think I think it's um it's a it's going back to what you were saying because you know, a lot of these kind of transformational breath work classes are around at the moment, and actually I did one on a on the retreat I just did, and it was a bit like this holeotropic breath. And again, I don't know a huge amount about it, and that was my first experience of it, and it's you know very powerful, it's deep breathing, it's a lot of holding the breath for a really long period of time, and you have these kind of emotional releases, but I don't know how safe it is because I know some people that have had quite negative experiences, and probably because the mind and the body, like you said, aren't ready that they're not there's no preparation. You kind of go in, you do this really strong, and I'm by the way, I'm not in any way um saying don't do these practices, it's just a different approach, isn't it? Because I think it's like it's a different approach. Pranayama is slowly structured, that's right.

SPEAKER_01: 56:08

Sort of pranayama also works with the bandas. You know, if you hold pranayama, should or the breath should always feel free, and your mind should be at ease as well with the breath. Hence you have this slow build-up. So when you do holding, you set also the bandas, uh means you set uh chalandhara bandha with the chin towards the chest to avoid pressure building up in the in the head uh for long holds, either with full or with empty lungs. And um and you want the the uh the energy, the prana flow through the channels in uh in a proper way. Um and that is all guided through pranayama. So if there is some, if there are long holds, and we all know, I know how uncomfortable I feel if I have a breathing rhythm that is not in sync with what my body can do. So if I hold with empty lungs, that's quite uh that's quite difficult. But then in uh in pranayama, you do have breathing, uh irregular breathing rhythms that uh agitate the nervous system as well in order to make it more resilient. So you hold longer you breathe in, uh hold all at the all different times. Uh so there's not this uh flow there, but there is this up and down and uh uh and a lot of thinking and counting uh involved. What maybe also agitates you, but to make you more resilient, and it is based on slow progress, you know. When you leave when you read building up, yes, when you read uh uh Ayenga's uh Light on Pranayam, so everything gets really uh progressed in a in a very slow way. In terms of increasing the holds and uh the counts.

SPEAKER_02: 58:38

And really that's um just so much safer, isn't it, as well, to have that structure and that framework there and build build up. It's like um or to go back to kind of a handstand scenario, trying to throw yourself up with no preparation, you're probably gonna really hurt cause yourself an injury.

SPEAKER_01: 59:03

Yes, or you have to deal with the aftermath, and can you, you know, are you? So if it leaves you agitated for days, or if you have an uh an experience that is uh uh not a positive one for you, and uh sort of you you need to digest that, you need to um get your balance back because it threw you out of balance. Uh, and I think then the uh pranayam all works on that being more balanced and um staying there and uh and um yeah, taking your time to digest every state so that you are prepared for the next one.

SPEAKER_02: 59:55

Yes, and now when we're moving further up through the body. Into um higher realms. The next one is Pratyahara. Pratyahara, have I pronounced that correctly? Pratyahara. I think so. When you read it's translated as sense withdrawal, withdrawal of the senses. So we're looking at the mind now, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:24

Yeah, I mean we're looking at what feeds the mind, right? Because it's the senses that feed the mind. And uh all of the Bhagavad Gita is all around, you know, controlling the senses in order to uh experience yoga, sort of that more balanced state, because the senses bring impressions in through the eyes or the ears, then they resonate with experiences that we have made before, they resonate maybe with our desires that we have and uh and bring everything into motion. And uh if when we want to reach that state of uh balance and uh yeah, how shall I say that? Um where we feel content uh on a just different level and happy, then um the senses they do play a role now in that. And um the more we are, and now even more so our senses are exposed to loads. Oh, yeah. And absolutely, so we can uh sort of overuse our senses, also in in in terms of Ayurveda, you know, we can overuse the senses, what we probably do right now, and uh we can underuse them. Um and to to sort of bring that down a little bit more, this activity of the mind, um, working with the senses and sort of restricting is always uh a word that has a negative connotation, right? So we want to filter maybe more what comes through the senses, not uh not thinking so much of restricting and closing your eyes and keep them there and closing your ears and not hearing anything anymore, but choosing um with uh with discernment to see, you know, is that valuable for me? Does that movie that I watch right now, does that make me feel good or not? You know, is that is that conversation that I have, is that uplifting me or is that dragging me down? Now, is that uh you know, to to see it like that, to um to be aware of the the uh effect that the senses have on us, which is huge. You know, without the senses, I mean, what would we be? And um, and to to just think of the effect that they have, to become aware of that it can like everything, can go both ways. You know, it can uplift us and it can uh draw us down. And if we want to go into that more uplifted state, then we need to slowly filter out what is not really construcive to that whole progress. And I think that's what it is with uh pratyahara is that we are becoming more aware of the senses and maybe also challenge them a little bit. So when we when we meditate, we close the eyes. But sometimes closing the eyes is just quite a lot, right? If you had a really busy day and uh you you you're just too it, everything is just too uh busy inside. So you can't close your eyes, sit there and meditate. It's not possible. So you need to let everything simmer down naturally. And the yoga practice does that, you know, it guides the senses, the eyes, for example, with Drishti. So you look at the particular point, you look down, you look to your thumb, you look to your the tip of your nose, and uh to to um train the eyes, you know, to to calm down and to look at one thing and not oh, there's some movement there, immediately eyes go there and look.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:02

So that so that's my next question for you, really, is is for someone who is brand new to all of these concepts and ideas, what's what's the practical, because we've we've gone through, you know, um the main things that people generally know about. They might not know about the yamas and the niyamas, but they know about asana and they might have known and practiced some pranayam. But now we're we're kind of we're moving more into the medic meditation and the realms of consciousness, aren't we? It's like the first steps to coming into the mind. So what is the what is a uh you just talked about Drishti. What's a what's another um practical application of pratihara, do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:49

During the practice or uh at home uh in your day-to-day life? Either. Whatever springs to mind. Either. I mean, I think in the in the in the practice it's probably easier because there you can set those. You know, you look at you the because the eyes and the ears. The ears obviously you can't close. The eyes you can close, or the eyes you can fix on something. You can look at the candle, for example. That's very um, that is very calming, and uh it keeps uh it keeps the eyes. But I always find it's good to start with bringing awareness into those senses or into everything that we want to do, and it's new for us to really become aware, you know, where do the eyes go, what do they leave. So the other day, my daughter won't like that, but I'm not naming anything in particular, so she that that's fine. She had a nightmare in the morning. She said, Oh, she had such a bad nightmare. She saw uh the nun from Conjuring. I said, Wow, I didn't know that there's a nun in that. I have no clue about the movie. I said, Did you watch the movie? No, I just saw a picture. So, you know, this one picture that has been seen leaves such an impression in the in the brain, in the mind, that it then conjures, you know, and a story around that, or even a nightmare, or even when you uh sort of be uh in the dark or you're on your own, uh you know, the fear gets heightened.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:42

So bringing more awareness into how these senses work or what how we feel that, how we experience that uh later on, you know, I think that is quite uh that is quite educational for ourselves, you know, to see, wow, this all goes through the eyes. I look here, I look there, and everything needs to be digested. And if I look at things that I don't like, then these images they do come back and they take me out of balance and they upset me, or uh whatever they do, um, again and again and again. And the same with, you know, with what we're listening to, because there's we can listen to some classical music, or um, for example, I really have an issue with uh I need to listen to voices, how people speak. I can't listen to any uh I don't want to any movies where there is a lot of swearing because I think I don't want to listen to that. I don't know why, I can't see it's so bad. It just annoys me, you know. I don't want to listen to it, I don't want to hear it. It is the the energy that comes with that. I think that's what we what maybe what uh what you then experience is that residue, what it leaves in you, that energy that it leaves. And it puts a little seed into that as well.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:22

I do know I think that's so important, and and definitely as I've got older and I have really tuned in to what what feeds me and nourishes me, as in let's talk about TV, and and to my part to my partner's behest, because I I like watching TV, I love watching films, but now I have to be really careful about what I watch because it really affects me. And um I don't massively. I don't I hate scary movies, just no. Um and just a certain things that I can feel my nervous system going, and I'm like, I don't, I don't need this, I don't want this, it's not nourishing me, it's not feeding me. In fact, it's the opposite. Um, and I'm I'm often quite sensitive person, and I think just being in that sense of awareness, it's all part of the practice, isn't it? Um sort of blindly consuming, you know, everything that comes your way, and wondering why you're yeah, so stressed out, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It it really is that, and that's why I think we only becoming aware of that, observing, maybe t checking in, you know, choose eating your meal in quiet, true taste. Uh this is gives you so much information. And if you uh if you continue doing that, you know, you don't want to have your your meal here and scrolling there, uh, like uh like a robot. And the same is like with whatever you do, I wouldn't say not even restrict what you do, just whatever you do naturally in your day-to-day life, uh, every day or every week. Week is, I think, even more effective. Choose one thing, one century input that you want to explore a little more, where you think, okay, let's see how whatever comes through my eyes, how it affects me when you look at advertising, uh, banners, when you look at uh whatever reading, if it's work-related, or uh yeah, colours, everything because it uh it affects us. And just to become aware of how it affects us, because then we can choose, you know, how do we want to feel? Do we want to feel uh not happy or do we want to feel happy? So everyone will choose happy, and then we need to that's the power that we have, you know, that we can make a decision, then an informed decision, because we have made the experience. We can say this is I don't really want to do this anymore because and I think that's where Pratyahara comes in, just becoming aware of the power of the senses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:47

And I think there's there's actually way more to this than I thought there would be. And um I'm I'm really aware of time. It's gone, isn't it? So I think if it just flies with you, it just absolutely flies. So thank you so much. But if you'd be happy, I think it would be really good to do the the last four, come back to this Pratyahara and and come back to the last three limbs in another episode because there's so much here, isn't there, to talk about.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:23

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Everything has just so much more depth than we they look very unassuming. These one-liners there or when you explore them, or uh yeah. Like you said, I think that's the thing is not to consume, but to slow down and explore a little more and notice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:52

Yeah, definitely. And that can be to realise that we can curate our living experience. I think now a lot of people feel quite powerless and sucked in because of the uh the old dopamine, you know, social media and everything. And and when just to to finish, we're not we're not saying you shouldn't be interacting in the world or you know, you could just blindly burying your head in the sand, definitely not. But there is there is um there is there is a way to listen to your senses, to be aware of what's coming in, what's affecting your body, your learning situations, your nervous system.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:40

Um because I think this is the power of yoga, is really that it makes us aware. And awareness is always you have that byproduct of making a decision if that's something that you want or not. Whatever you're everyone has a different aim in life, everyone has a different goal in life. Um, and uh it is not to put it into a particular, it's not for that, but it is for you, how you want to use it, and uh it brings the awareness, and the awareness is just that what we need in order to say, oh, this is what is important to me right now, and this is helpful, this is not helpful, this is not helpful, but I can't really avoid it. We also have that, you know, we have things that are really not helpful and we just can't avoid them. But then yoga also helps us to be more, you know, the ups and downs, these spikes, they get smaller and smaller. So even if there are situations or there there are circumstances that we just can't avoid, we will deal better with them from a more balanced starting point. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:11

So that they don't affect us as strongly anymore as they did maybe previously. So powerful.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:22

Amazing. Well, let's uh let's pick it up from here, next episode, if you're really happy to come on again.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:31

Absolutely, yes, because I think it is really it's important. Um the yoga philosophy is important um because it has so much to offer, and all the books that you can read, they are all offering solutions and tips on what you can do. They are maybe not so easy to read, but they are manuals rather than um sort of mental constructs, you know. They are not abstract, they are very much uh practical.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:09

Yeah, that's that's the beauty of it, really. If you look at it like a system, a very practical system, and and there are no rules, it's it's just there for you to to use them and integrate them into your life and uh and feel the benefit. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:27

That's right. And they are aware that we are all at different uh stages, you know, because they always give options. If you can't do that, try that. If you can't do that, try they always tone it down from sort of the in quotation marks, ideal scenario, to um if you can't just do whatever you can do. Yeah. And um, and I think that's really that's really so refreshing, and that's why I really like the uh yoga philosophy because it is made for people because from people, because you know we haven't evolved much in those thousands of years, we still have the same issues, we still have the uh the same problems, and uh and they had then and let's just just do something, it's good, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:26

And that's enough. Well, listen, uh let's call it a day there, Katya. Thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:33

Speak very soon. Okay, take care. Bye. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:44

Thank you so much for listening to the Be Still and Notice podcast. I really hope you enjoyed this episode and perhaps it even added something to your life. If you know someone that might benefit, please share this episode with them, and of course, a review would be so much appreciated. Please find all the information relating to this episode, including relevant links, in the show notes, and until next time, sending you so much love and light on your path to yoga.