Lift and Make Lighter

Building a Path to Wellness: The Gold Counseling Approach

• LÉVO Mind Care • Season 1 • Episode 12

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In this episode of the Lift and Make Lighter podcast, host Tom Telford interviews Debbie Gold of Gold Counseling in Utah. Debbie shares her journey from a challenging upbringing in Northern California to leading a significant mental health organization. She discusses her path to addiction recovery, her education, and her extensive career in health and human services, particularly in fostering mental health services for children and adults in Utah. The conversation touches on her family's involvement in mental health services, her husband and children's roles, and the importance of family dynamics in her practice. Debbie emphasizes the need for genuine connection, understanding, and joy in relationships and discusses the challenges couples face in maintaining these elements. They discuss themes such as financial disagreements, the importance of independence, and effective communication in relationships, while also addressing broader societal issues like the stigma around mental health. Debbie stresses the significance of staying grounded and finding joy through life's complexities.
For more information about Debee and Gold Counseling, visit https://goldwellness.com/

The Lift and Make Lighter podcast is presented by, LÉVO, a mind care company specializing in comprehensive mental health assessment, diagnosis, and treatment. Our approach includes personalized plans that may involve therapy, responsible medication management, and additional tools to help navigate a path to better mental health.

intro:

We believe that collaborative conversations will lead to better outcomes in the world of mental health. Welcome to the Lift and Make Lighter podcast.

Tom:

Welcome to the Lift and Make Lighter podcast. I'm Tom Telford here with Debbie Gold in Gold Counseling World Headquarters. Thanks for having us. Thank you. I was trying to think where in the

Debee:

world I want to be for a headquarter.

Tom:

This is it. This is it. This is the Mecca. Kaysville, Utah. That's where I want to be. About two blocks from Maverick where all good things start.

Debee:

All good things.

Tom:

Adventures first stop. Debbie, tell us about you. Your background, how we got to this point where you are running a very large mental health organization.

Debee:

How far back do you want to go?

Tom:

As far as you want to go. Whatever gives context to the listener.

Debee:

Okay. So if it's context to the listener and it's lift and lighter and that kind of stuff, I'm going to go back to birth. Just kidding.

Okay.

Debee:

No, I am going to go back to a little bit of my childhood. And that I grew up in, um, Northern California, the North Bay area. Uh, grandparents on mom's side. Uh, that grandfather was the superintendent of Mendocino County Schools. Grandparents on the other side were, um, super loving as poor as dirt. And somewhere in the middle was me, um, with teenage parents. Who decided to have me. This is in the 60s, by the way.

Wow.

Debee:

Yes. So, um, decided to have me probably at the time, uh, you know, in the 60s and those decisions. Maybe it wasn't the best decision, but I was around. So I had a lot of grandparents, aunts and uncles, that kind of stuff that, um, took me under their wings. Hmm. Um, and I learned right away that there's a village. And sometimes our village isn't traditional. And, um, so fast forward through those early years into my teenage years and addiction set in with me. Did you know that?

Tom:

No.

Debee:

Yeah.

Tom:

Say more.

Debee:

Yeah. So to

Tom:

use a Debbie ism, same war.

Debee:

Yeah. So, um, I just started using and alcohol was my drug of choice. Started when I was 12.

Wow.

Debee:

Yeah. Stopped when I was 19. Cold turkey. But in all of that, um, it was really terrible kind of stuff. And there were people that still loved me and that was pretty cool. So 19, uh, left the state of California. I went to Idaho to a school, school called Ricks College, which is now known.

This

Tom:

is so great.

Debee:

CYU Idaho. The context gets

Tom:

so deep right here.

Debee:

And boy was that culture shock. Yeah. Anyways, um. How?

Tom:

How did you end up there?

Debee:

Well, I joined the LDS church. Okay. When I was 19. Okay. So, um, anyways, that's what took me there. I don't know, is it LDS anymore or not, but.

Whatever you call it. Yeah, there you go. You joined it.

Debee:

Yeah. So, um, went there, uh, finished school there, came down to Utah, went to the U, met my husband. That was a story in and of itself. He walked in to Sunday school and. Literally, I said to my roommate, Oh my goodness, that's my husband. Like it was, it was one of those situations. So we've been married for 34 years, so it's working out. Okay.

Tom:

The foresight, seriously, incredible.

Debee:

Now in all of that, I've had all these life experiences and, um, started getting really interested in health and human services. So in 97, took a job with a division of child and family services. And started working in their foster care system at the time the state of Utah had been sued and there was oversight from the state of Alabama over the state of Utah to help with the assistance of placement of kids in foster care. And so they started the Utah Foster Care Foundation. And a peer parenting program. So I got to be helpful in all of that right there, implementing the peer parenting program and stuff like that in the state of Utah, decided to go get a degree so that, um, my voice had a degree behind it and went to Weber state, got a degree in social work and psychology, and, um, then a master's degree from the university of Utah and,

um,

Debee:

and in all of that time, um, When I was a student at Weber State, we had to do, like, a practicum, and I decided, well, if we have to do something, then I'm going to make it real, so I went and wrote a grant and got funded 750, 000 from, uh, JJS. And started in Ogden School District, a, an initiative to help junior high students make it to high school, um, at Central Middle School. And that school is no longer operating, but it was a great program and it ran for a few years. Went and then did my master's and started working for Davis Behavioral Health. I spent 20 years there, um, loved my career there, worked in kids, and then I went over to the adult side and worked with SPMI population, so that's the Severely and Persistently Mentally Ill, and had, um, a big part of bringing school based mental health services into Davis County, the state of Utah, as well as The community learning centers that are placed in, um, elementary schools and now they've expanded into high schools, um, for resources for kids to be successful. I'm a true believer that if kids can stay in school and get educated and their other stuff that they have going on in their life can be, um, mitigated as much as possible, then we're going to have really great citizens. Because I was that. And so I've been super committed to that. And when I decided to retire from Davis in 2018, I'd started my private practice and then I was working in it and thought, Oh, wait a minute. I'm super good at these other things too. Not just therapy. And so I was like, okay, let's grow.

Tom:

What are these other things that you reference?

Debee:

I like program development. I like looking at needed resources and like plugging in the puzzle of what's needed for people. So currently today we have about 40 employees and a gold counseling. You know, we serve a diverse population from kids to I mean like four to a hundred really not a hundred but close to it and all sorts of backgrounds and diagnoses and our clinicians are vetted And handpicked and maybe prayed about and

Tom:

Prayed on

Debee:

yes. Oh, I don't know about that one. But Anyways, so that's just Yeah, where we are.

Tom:

Yeah. Tell me about your family or share with our listeners the family dynamic because this is a family business for the Golds.

Debee:

It is. So, um, let's start with my husband, Kerry. So Kerry has a 30 year career in sales. And, um, had always been a supporter of me and the things I do, and on his end, he just made the money so that I could do what I do in the past. Yes. Well, when Kerry retired, um, after that 30 year career, he decided to go get another master's degree and this time got it in clinical mental health counseling. And so he is now the, Practicing therapy. Yeah. And really likes it. He has his own niche. He has his own clinical supervisors. He stays in his lane and that's the way we work really well. We're both, um, passionate people. And so we have scheduled business meetings when I have to be the CEO kind of stuff. And

Tom:

then I've been in these meetings. I know he's really running the show. Yeah.

Debee:

Yeah. Anyways. And then we have a daughter who is a clinician, a son in law who is a clinician. We have our son that, um, works in marketing is a degree in professional sales and works in marketing for us. And, um, you know, it's interesting when I think about our children, we have four children and five and a half grandchildren, so one is coming in, uh, January, but when I think about them and growing up and how much they did with me, whether it was, um, You know, on Thanksgiving day and serving homeless. Although I will tell you one time they put us in charge in Ogden at the rescue mission, Thanksgiving, they put us in charge of making coffee. It was the worst coffee. And they, those poor people kept telling me this coffee's terrible. I'm like, don't put me in charge.

Tom:

So run, run to Starbucks, right? Yes,

Debee:

exactly. We all need Starbs in our life. Anyways, um, so they grew up in that kind of lifestyle or doing those kinds of things when, um, all of our kids, when they were teenagers went to work as peer specialists and working side by side with, um, teens or young adults who needed assistance in the community to fit in, or they had, you know, mental illness and they just needed to learn some life skills kind of stuff. All of our kids did that. And so it's not surprising to me that it's kind of a family business going on now.

Tom:

It's incredible to watch actually. And you know, for what it's worth for our listeners who are listening in to be transparent. Debbie, her husband and I, my wife, we, we own real estate together. We're business partners in some real estate. Um, but what led us to being comfortable to do that with you and others that are involved is, um, an incredible sense of business. I mean, you're very savvy in what you do. And so is Carrie and so very experienced in terms of business, but your hearts are big and it's apparent, you know, I've seen it. Um, to be honest, I hear about it more than I see it because most of the work that is done in mental health is behind closed doors. But you have a reputation, you know, for what you're doing in the community and I, I respect it greatly. I mean, it's, it's really impressive to see. I've never said this on camera before in a podcast, but I'm going to say this. If I were. If my wife and I were in a situation where we would need counseling together, which we talk about at least two or three times a week. Should we go to therapy? But because Liza, my wife, is a therapist, you know, we have a lot of tools at our discretion probably biased by her, you know, but if we were going to, there's something about you in particular with Your background and your experience in the way that you sit with and communicate with people. I would try to come to see you

Debee:

Oh, well, thank you. I would really kind

Tom:

I would and I think it's because this is gonna you know may sound strange I did not know your childhood or your background But there's a richness to you personally that I've never known the background But it but there's a grit to you not in a negative way But a grit of this is a woman who has seen it She knows how to sit in it and she can throw strikes at you. She's going to tell you the truth. And I think that therapies are really interesting dynamic that there are a lot of therapists who are fine to sit with people where they are, but aren't really comfortable taking them anywhere from there. Right. And I don't even know if that makes sense. I don't even know if I'm using the right terminology, but I can see you thriving in the way that so many therapists would want to come to gold and be mentored because You hold people to a high standard and you want to move them somewhere. And I don't know what it is about the therapeutic process, but when I have been in therapy and I've gone to therapy from a therapist who was mentored by you, it took me somewhere and I wanted to go somewhere. I didn't want to stay where I was. I wanted to start there, but it took me somewhere. And. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense to you as a clinician, but can you speak to that a little bit about when you sit with someone or they come or you mentor other therapists, what is it about your all approach where the straight talk and truth is kind of the, it's the bedrock for taking people where they need to go instead of where they're at?

Debee:

That's a good question. I believe that. really like our, we were joking my altruism because it really, I really am an altruistic person. Um, but I believe that we are here to have joy. Do you allow swearing? Okay. Because when people meet me, I will say in my 30 second elevator speech, I love Jesus and I swear a lot and I'm super good with both because I am all of those things. And so I believe if somebody has made that hardest call to come in to therapy, then my space is to be with them so that one, they are comfortable with whatever is in their bag of life with the idea of getting them someplace better. And I believe that and as therapists, you know, whoever I've mentored, um, it's that same thing. The therapist has their life experiences as well as they, whether they feel this role of being a therapist is like their calling in life or why ever they're drawn to it or they have life experience at the end of the day, they're sitting with people in their most vulnerable space. And that's a, that's a. sacred space for us to be as well as helping somebody to move forward to find joy. There is a lot of joy in this life. And, uh, I think that we all should be freaking stingy and find it and take it and do it.

Tom:

Oh, we're going to double click on the take it because I feel strongly about the same thing, you know, and in getting to a point where you feel confidence in your life, where you can chase it versus life. taking you, you taking it. You mentioned Jesus and swearing or Jesus and cussing. How important is it for people to get comfortable in paradox? The fact that they can both pursue faith or Christianity, whatever that is. and also be real and human.

Debee:

So whether it is faith, Christianity, um, you know, for me, my grounding is in my relationship with the God and a Jesus, but that's not for everybody. Um, I do believe that it's important for everybody to be grounded. If that makes sense, it could be grounded in, you know, the energy of the earth. Like, sometimes you just got to get out and touch grass.

Tom:

I love that because my boys will say it to each other all the time. Like, dude, just go touch grass. You've been in front of a screen. I'm like, touch grass.

Debee:

Yeah. Right. What is it

Tom:

about that though? In particular, the grounding is just, Regardless of what it is, what is it needed?

Debee:

Why is it needed?

Tom:

Yeah.

Debee:

Um, I, so, I can speak from my perspective, oops, sorry, um, I can speak from my perspective with grounding. Grounding to me helps me, one, feel validated in my own skin with whatever, whatever I'm experiencing at that time. Whether it's emotions, um, mood, um, you know. Joy, feeling picked on, sad, grief, like whatever. As long as you can sit in it, you don't have to stay there, but that's the part where being grounded helps you to be in that space of, oh, let's sit in this, and then we're going to move forward. It's, it's an energy collector to me rather zapper.

Yeah. Interesting.

Debee:

Um, if it's touching grass, like you think about the energy of the earth, that feels good. Um, You know, we were also laughing earlier about camping. No, I'll never camp again in my entire life But to be outside you love

Tom:

the jw marriott campground I do It is my

Debee:

favorite

Tom:

really. Yes. I

Debee:

just got back from the one in scottsdale

Tom:

I love it. I love it Pampering is ground and I got to

Debee:

touch cactuses

Tom:

Yeah

Debee:

touching grass

Tom:

touching grass nature. What is it about? The therapeutic alliance, as they call it, when someone comes to therapy, do you believe they're looking for that? Someone who can help them get grounded or that they're, The therapeutic process is a grounding process.

Debee:

I believe that people want connection and when they're coming to therapy, that's what they're looking for. I do treat a lot of couples or people with relationship things going on. And if you layer it back to the need of connection, if you're being grounded to something that's about a connection. Touching grass is about a connection. Just sitting in a, you know, a Chabasana in yoga is about a connection to yourself in a relationship. It's about a connection. And oftentimes there's things that, you know, blur that connection, communication. Misunderstandings, um, attachment issues, not, not slowing down enough to understand the other person. Um, like there's just so many different things. And so for when somebody comes in to, um, work with us at gold or any therapist, I believe that that's the first, one of the first places to start is understanding the individual's connection. So for example, if I have a couple come in and they are really in this. cycle of, um, not being able to communicate that I want to understand where are they missing in their communication? Where are they missing with being heard? How do they, how are they missing? in feeling like they're safe or trusted, that kind of stuff. And so, um, when you said, you know, I'll just call the strikes or whatever. Um, really what I'm doing with people is I'll actually throw a bunch of things out there to see which one lands and what they're experiencing. So for example, if there's a lot of anger in the room, I am trying on like, what are we frustrated about? What are we fearful of? What are your feelings heard about? Are you embarrassed? Boy, I'm telling you there's nothing quicker with anger than embarrassment. You can see it in little kids, like, you know, little toddlers, that kind of stuff. If they get embarrassed, what do they do? They're acting out. They're, right? Tantrum. But what if you said, Oh, you know, come here. Let's talk about that. Was that embarrassing? Like you brought them close and just said, well, was that embarrassing? Tell me what was embarrassing for you in that. And you taught them the language then instead of the tantrum. I'm not saying that couples are toddlers, but

Tom:

I am. I am plenty. But sometimes. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I've been

Debee:

married for 34 years.

Tom:

Yes.

Debee:

Have I been a toddler? Yep. Sure have.

Tom:

What are you seeing, um, regularly, clinically, as someone who is employing lots of clinicians? Are there themes that you see on a regular basis where just, I mean, it's not often that we get someone who is Um, been in the industry this long leading this many clinicians who really knows and has a pulse on the mental health space in society, in Utah, in Davis County, and at other places, by the way, Gold Counseling is in St. George, Draper. Where else?

Debee:

Riverdale.

Tom:

Riverdale. Jaysville. Is there Syracuse?

Debee:

Uh, there will be. Did you hear? No. Oh, we're just in talks. I

Tom:

like it. Uh, and

Debee:

we are now licensed in Idaho, Nevada, and Arizona.

Tom:

Wow.

Debee:

We have been licensed in New York and Florida, but that's for traveling.

Tom:

So world headquarters is accurate. Yeah, there you go. It's going, it's going big. But I mean, your knowledge and wisdom, it is vast. I mean, I'm not just Blowing smoke. That's real. I mean, you have a lot of context for what's going on.

Debee:

It is 2024 and I've been in this since 97.

Tom:

Yeah.

Debee:

There's a lot of data up here.

Tom:

There is.

Debee:

Yeah.

Tom:

Which I think is so valuable, especially to new clinicians coming into the field and wanting to start a career. This is a great place to do it. What are the themes as a leader in the industry? Someone who just takes a step back and looks at it and goes, we are struggling as a society in X or Y or

Debee:

so. Um, I think a, a theme is there's a lot of babble in the world and a lot of disconnect and um, I would love for people to reconnect. Now um, the nice thing in the day that we live in is there is an opportunity for, you know, through technology to connect with people all around the world. I mean I just mentioned we're in Idaho, Nevada, and Arizona and those other places because there's technology. Which is awesome. Um, as well as there's technology which can be difficult for people and the disconnect.

Yeah.

Debee:

And so that to me is an underlying current that I will take a look at when clients are coming in. Or have my clinicians take a look at is how are they connecting with things that are closest and most important to them. And let's start there. And that includes for, you know, diagnoses of anxiety, depression, that kind of stuff.

Tom:

Where, where is technology working for connection and where is it not? Obviously, I mean, we could go, we could spend hours and hours on this topic of just

the

Tom:

lack of connection. teens, adults spending tons of time, have thousands of friends, if not millions of followers online. And yet there is a general lack of connection. So when, when does it work for people? And when is it a hindrance? I mean, it, it is a problem. There's a negative component to technology right now.

Debee:

I think everyone gets to decide that when it tips the curve in activities of your daily living, that'd be living that become negative or aren't helpful. So if you think of a person. You know, they're at the center. Now we can call it a wellness wheel. We could call it the S's. Yeah Kind of stuff but when there is a disconnect of the person in the center, let's say it's a wellness wheel like they're how they connect socially, their employment, their, um, sleep patterns, their connection to the environment, um, their health, their wellness, all those kinds of things. If technology is impacting that in a negative way, so the person is not feeling whole, and I say that whole because, I mean, I don't know necessarily who's whole, but we sure can take as much as we want to be whole. So, um, and I think every person gets to decide that for themselves, uh, where that is. I have worked with, um, like couples who have been disconnected due to technology. And so sometimes their homework is get on Reddit for 15 minutes at night. Um, and then you guys talk about what you read on Reddit to connect because they didn't want to put down their phones at nighttime. And they were both on Reddit. So I just made it work for them in a way that then they got to connect. Yeah. In their Reddit. It's

Tom:

fascinating. Um, one of the things, even hearing you say that, that, um, I hear therapists often speak about is just how much time you are keeping the people that matter to you most top of mind and how are you, you know, prioritizing, you know, to do that. Share a little bit about that. Just the other experiences of. keeping prioritization mindful in, in the key relationships.

Debee:

So if you think about what builds a relationship, you've got a relationship needs to have trust. It needs to be commitment, but what does commitment really mean? What does it look like? And, um, so if you're looking at an intentional relationship with those that you want to be in an intentional relationship with, hopefully it's your significant other children, you know, that kind of stuff, then What are you doing about the friendship? You know, what is that everyday life look like in connecting? How is humor used? Um, how is understanding what they're experiencing that day, if it's something difficult or not? Um, sometimes we don't need to rescue somebody from what they're experiencing, but to say, oh, but I could be side by side with you. And you know, talk with you as you were going through this experience. Um, is really important. And then, how are you managing communication? And healthy communication does look like arguing. And it does look like laughing. Like it looks like both things. It's

Tom:

a paradox, right? It is a paradox. And

Debee:

often times people say, I just don't want to argue anymore. I'm like, no. Well, you're, as long as you're terminally human, you're going to have arguments that's never going away. How you manage it could feel and look better and less, um, of a space that it feels like, you know, you've just been daggered.

Tom:

Yeah. Is there, is that a skill of learning to argue better, learning to argue more productively? And how key is that to maintaining a friendship? Because I'm now at the point of 25 years married this year, lots of friends. Thank you. It, it takes a lot, you know, to, to stay connected to use, you know, your word. And what we have realized as our marriage grows in years is that the friendship becomes more and more important. Otherwise, it's just, I don't know, logistics. It's managing the stuff. It's

Debee:

being roommates. Nobody wants it to be a roommate and managing the kids and household things.

Tom:

Yeah.

Debee:

I don't think that's why people. I

Tom:

don't think that that was, that's the original intention. I think that you fall in love with someone, but then as time goes on, I think it's natural to say, well, you're managing the list logistics of the family. And so I'm going to go be with my friends or vice versa. And you know, then you wake up one day and it's like, you don't necessarily have a closeness there.

Right.

Tom:

What do you, what are you seeing or what do you say to a couple who comes in and just says, we don't connect. We're not necessarily friends. We're not. We don't have a relationship other than on paper, or we don't have a relationship other than the duty of keeping a marriage covenant or commitment.

Debee:

You see that often in Utah.

Tom:

I'm poking the bear. Yes, you are. I want to hear this because I know there's so much wisdom about this in particular.

Debee:

Yeah, that's a tough one. I'm working within what the person, the couple's values are in that one right there. And, um, so if they have the value of staying together like that, then I actually am going to challenge them in what that looks like. Um, and I'll challenge them in their values of where that comes from. Uh, in a way that hopefully is healthy. Yeah, it doesn't make them want to, you know, run the other way uh kind of stuff but Um, I think that's you know, the thing that is Important in that is understanding why they got together in the first place And what things look like in the beginning, and there's going to be most likely a different level of interest in their couple connectedness with, you know, if they were to come in and they're 25 years married, that kind of stuff, you know, but at the end of the day, I want to know, where is it that they want to be? What is the goal that they want it to be? And then we'll start working backwards. What would that take? So you started here, you want this goal here, but you're stuck here. And I'll have them start answering the questions. And sometimes it's a question of, I want you to go home and think about it and then come back because sometimes they don't know right away or what they want that level of commitment to be, or, um, how much effort they want to put into it, or they want the other person to make the effort. And that's okay. If you want the other person to make the effort, however, there does have to be. Both making the effort eventually, but maybe somebody's wounded. They're hurt. They You know have so much resentment built up that they want to see effort by the other person. Okay, let's try it then and What's the measuring stick? We can't have the measuring stick keep moving. We need to stop here and say okay. That made me feel good, teaching them how to give compliments, admiration, um, how to give the, you know, attaboys, attagirls, that kind of stuff, but really how to give the compliment to the relationship. When they come in and work with me though, I am treating the relationship. I'm not treating them as two individual people in the office, if we're talking about couples work.

Tom:

Say more about that because I think that there oftentimes is a hesitation on one partner to say. Well, if I am going to go to therapy and it is a woman, then they're automatically going to take her side. And that's not a safe environment or that, do you know what I mean? I hear that often. Speak to that in terms of the relationship and how you try to maintain. I mean, I've had

Debee:

people say, I feel like you're not listening to me and I'll say, Oh, I'm listening, but I'm treating the relationship. And so let's take what you need to be heard to work in the relationship. However, you know, if you're coming in and keeping score about all the things your spouse did wrong, that's a lot of resentment and is that helping the relationship? We could take a look at it for a second, but it's not going to be the focal point of the, um, of the session.

Tom:

How often do you find couples come in and they genuinely want to work on the relationship to make it work versus trying to find a side or a blame or a way to justify their stance or position in it?

Debee:

Um. I would say that when they leave here, it's really high percentage that they understand this is about the relationship and they both get to participate. When they come in, it's about the other person.

Tom:

Yeah.

Debee:

So, yeah.

Tom:

I hear that often. And even friends who know that Liza and I are in the field, I think that they're looking for therapy to justify the stance that they have in the marriage. And they're looking for reinforcement of where they are or how they've been hurt or whatever that, you know, the lens that they're seeing it through is, but they're oftentimes disappointed that therapists are so focused on that, the relationship working. And at times, I think they have the energy to be supported for their stance. They don't have the energy to take the

Debee:

responsibility and do the work. I, um, often times I'll treat, uh, couples that have had infidelity. And, um, that's hard. That's really hard. And, you know, there is a victim and a perpetrator in that. And so we take a look at what is needed to feel safe. Each other when there's a victim and perpetrator. And then we take it to what the relationship is and what the relationship needs. And I will often say the affair happened way before, and you're both, um, victims and perpetrators because to get to that space, there has been a disconnect that happened a way long time ago before an infidelity. And so a lot of work is done around that to bring them back to, okay, what are you both gonna put into the relationship in act two? marriage 2. 0, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Um, because you both get to show up now, you know, what happened last time,

Tom:

right?

Debee:

When things weren't intentional,

Tom:

when that is turned, when infidelity occurs and people come in and they truly commit to the work and they do it when they move forward together, realign born again, I don't know what you would call it, like a recommitment. Yeah.

Debee:

I just call it marriage 2.

Tom:

0. That's very politically correct. I like it. It's good. Keep it simple. Yeah, totally. What are the, what's the recipe for that working well? What do they have to commit to, embrace, work on?

Debee:

So first I'll take a look at the things that are truly fearful for them. Um, like intimacy might be fearful for one or both of them. Reconnecting that way. And I'll say, okay, we're shelving that then right now. Like, let's take the things that keep them from being successful and put it on the shelf for a minute while we're working on, um, reinstating that trust and commitment and friendship. Friends don't like to hurt friends. And so if we can redevelop that friendship, then hopefully they're not going to hurt each other again. And then we can get to the other stuff.

Yeah.

Debee:

You know, if it's intimacy, if it's. you know, in-laws, whatever.

Tom:

say more Well, I mean, that's always an issue too. Yeah, it is. Extended family.

Debee:

Uhhuh.

Tom:

What are, um, speaking of some of the, you know, causations or some of the challenges, you, you, you mentioned infidelity is a big one. What are others, what are other major, major contributors to marriage challenges, relationship challenges?

Debee:

Um, boy, in my head, it really is. If somebody doesn't feel seen or heard, that is huge. There is, um, a task responsibility of the home. You know, maybe somebody comes home from work and doesn't do much and the other person has been with kids all day long or, you know, those kinds of things, role expectations. Um, finances, oh my goodness, finances are huge. Maybe you got a spender, maybe you have a saver, they don't communicate. If you think of perpetual problems, so, um, I use the Gottman method, uh, for therapy when I work with couples or relationship kind of stuff and, um, in the research, so I'm going to put this in Debbie terms. Let's say you have a hundred problems. 69 of those problems are going to be perpetual gridlock problems, meaning they're always going to be there. 31 of those problems are super solvable. So we'll practice the solvables and we're going to understand and do some, um, skills work of trying to learn how to understand the reason why those perpetual problems become so big in a relationship. I mean, it can come down to somebody's clean and somebody's not. Somebody loads the dishwasher one way, then the other way. Like it can be a lot of different issues. Yeah, for sure.

Tom:

When I hear you say roughly 70%, 69 percent are perpetual. That's a fascinating thing to think through because. In my head, I go, why even, why even fight over the 70%, right? If they're perpetual. But they get in the way all the time. Liza and I fight about the same stuff all the time and have for 25 years. It's like the same three things, right? And what has changed over the years is not that those go away. We just don't die on our swords the same way. No. You learn how

Debee:

to manage it.

Tom:

We manage it differently.

Debee:

Yeah.

Tom:

Is that what it is about in relationships?

Debee:

100 percent is how do you manage it? How do you understand where the other person's coming from? And you may end up eventually agreeing with them and you may not. It doesn't mean you love them any less. It doesn't mean, you know, divide the line and you're on, you know, separate sides here. It just means that you don't agree. You were raised in one home. Liza was raised in one home. You both have your characteristics and features that you were, you know, nature and nurture and all of that. You come together and you make your own home culture, right? Your children will do the same kind of stuff and, you know, if they get married, that kind of stuff. It's all in how do you manage those perpetuals?

Tom:

Yeah. Yeah.

Debee:

That's it.

Tom:

If you were to go back to those first, you know, knowing what you know, contextually, clinically, if you were to go back now to those early years of your marriage. What would you advise your younger self? I mean, now I have this like pretty strong opinion, right? About the perpetuals and the non perpetuals and what, what would I have shed years ago? The sad thing is,

Debee:

is my poor children, they get these like Instagram things sent to me or books sent to me. You know, I just send them to them all the time. Like, read this, do this. Kind of stuff. I wish somebody did that to me. Is it mom stop

Tom:

therapizing me? Our kids now all use the word therapize. Like I don't even think that's in.

Debee:

I've started to lean in with, uh, are you okay if I jump into your life as this right now?

Tom:

That's such a great question. I love that. I try. Do they ever say no? No. Stay out?

Debee:

Yeah. Okay. I do. I mean, I have a child in here. Does that happen? It did happen today.

Tom:

But you ask him.

Debee:

I did ask him.

Tom:

Okay. Yeah,

Debee:

I did ask him, but I had to learn how to do that. Yeah. I had to learn how to do that because me, when I wouldn't do it and I'm like, Oh my goodness, I have all this stuff to give my child and I can help you here. And I just go in and they're like, get away. Don't do that. And I'm like, no, I'm butthurt. Like, so the way I learned to navigate, That's such a great way

Tom:

of navigating it though.

Debee:

Seriously. I was like, you know what? They're adults and maybe I'll just ask them.

Tom:

Brilliant.

Debee:

Brilliant.

Tom:

Okay, so go back though, if you could.

Debee:

So, I will tell you one of the things Carrie and I, oh my goodness, I will use this often in my group supervision with um, All the, like, 60 other clinicians that we do supervise, um, kind of stuff, and I will share them. So, one of the things in our early marriage, one of our perpetuals that would come up was, um, financial. And so, Carrie had a great job. I had a great job. I worked full time, Carrie worked full time. However, if you looked at what we brought in It was like this, mine was way down here. And, um, every single day we used to live up on highway 89 in East Layton and grounds for coffee is right there. Every day I would go and I would spend about five bucks. Uh, grounds for coffee. Ironically Ainsley Wall was my barista. That's how I first met her. She's now a therapist and owns a business because she came to work for me. She leaned out the window. Toby, I hear you do this. Would you consider hiring me? That's a side story. For

Tom:

those listening in, knowledge and network. That is the future of the world. Knowledge and network. What you know and who you know. Okay. Okay. So.

Debee:

So he, we would have arguments. Now our arguments were about for him, he managed the finances, you know, he managed making the budget to go on vacation. He managed like he just did that. Um, I liked my independence and I didn't want somebody telling me what to do with my grounds for coffee. Five days a week,$25 a week, and we would battle over it. Yeah. Until I said, listen, this isn't working, so let's take a look at this in different way. And so he looked at it. It was like, when he did that to me, he was challenging my independence of making a decision with that$5. It wasn't about the$5 really for me, it was about my independence. And I had a job and I had a lot of responsibilities at the job. I managed a lot of people and I felt, um, that it was, you know, we would just argue about that 5. And for him, it was about making sure that our home had financial safety, freedom, and the ability to do things. Our kids were very involved in sports and we did a lot of traveling, um, for their sports and stuff like that. And so once we both were able to step back and take a look at what that 5 a day, 25 a week meant at that, after we did that, we're like, Oh, okay. Ironically. Then I did Lent, and I got rid of it. I stopped going.

Tom:

Good for you. But that's another story. Yeah, I love that. There's such a great lesson there, though, about what it meant. It wasn't the five bucks. No, was what it meant, you know? No,

Debee:

it meant my independence. Which is enormous. And for him, it meant safety and security.

Tom:

Yeah. When I think back on, you know, those early years, even the last 25 years, there's been a couple things that have really been difference makers that I didn't necessarily think about before. at the time that we created them as habits, but they have been, and I'm interested to get your feedback on this. This is one of the questions I had for you. Liza and I have never missed a year getaway together where it's just us, no kids. And it was so hard in those early years to do that. So that was one of them. The second was, and I think that a lot of younger couples, maybe our generation does this more, but Um, I've always gone on trips with my buddies once a year. And what's interesting about that trip is golf, play pickleball, watch a lot of college football. It's usually in the fall. But what I, what I brought home from that trip once a year in hearing you just, you know, talk about this 5, you know, coffee stop, you know, just checking in is that I would come home from that trip with friends and I would hear how they fought in their marriages.

Mm hmm.

Tom:

And oftentimes, because You know, our background, culture, society, most of my friends, um, were young married and young fathers in a situation where they were the sole breadwinner. And so they were the provider in the relationship. And they would come back and tell me, and oftentimes to be frank, a lot of my friends were trying to control their spouse's spending money. And to be honest, just my relationship, who Liza is, who I am, I was kind of disgusted by it. And so I was the one in our early years of marriage managing the money, but early on, I don't know how young, but I was probably four or five years into the marriage. And I just said, how comfortable would you be just taking over finance? Cause I never wanted her to feel strapped or stuck. I wanted her to experience some sort of empowerment or, you know, just control, you know, in the marriage. So when you think about that, just And what's going on as, as couples get older and older, I can see how years and years of not having a feeling of independence can create an incredible amount of, I don't know all the words that you would describe there, but disdain, like resentment, you know, there's, there's a lot of stuff that, you know, couples face in their marriages as a result of those things. How key is roles? I mean, there's a part of being married that's just logistics. Someone has to do the stuff.

Debee:

When I have young marrieds come in or premarital counseling, stuff like that, I will ask them, like, what makes you as an individual excited about life? What's your hobbies? What's your passions? That kind of stuff. And then I will say to the other person. Can you like, what did you hear in that? Because it's really important. If we think about the idea of creating, um, shared meaning, it doesn't mean us together. I mean, it does mean that, but what if it also meant supporting us as individuals in the things that, um, we like to do that makes us passionate. So when you go on your Once a year, um, guy connection trip. Is Liza supportive? Is she saying, yeah, go like. Has she always been supportive? Like you don't have to answer those things, but those, but those, that's important to have somebody that says, yes, babe, go do that. I trust you. Have fun. Come back a better person. Like, right. It means all of those things. They'll lose

Tom:

a bunch of money on the golf course. You're buddies. No, the reason I bring it up is because I want to say it in an environment like this, where couples and people, younger people, you know, who are young marrieds or whatever, young parents can hear it. From a clinical person say what is good and healthy and not healthy. Liza was always very supportive because she did the same very early on in our marriage. We wanted a week away together and we wanted the ability to go spend time and reconnect with friends. We actually had parents and relatives say to us, that's so weird. You guys go away with your friends. Like. And I think that they were picturing like that we were partying or like wanting to not be married anymore. And in reality, what it has become is that it was literally group therapy. I mean, no joke. I heard things from my buddies on the pickleball court and watching college football that were confiding in each other. Marriage was never thrown under the bus on any of those trips. It actually was like this very supportive thing, you know? So say more about that. the freedom to go and do and have independence and have a strong sense of self away from just the marriage or the family or I don't know. Well, yeah, I

Debee:

just think, well, kudos to both of you for figuring that out. Even I don't know if that was an example to you or how you incorporated that. But kudos to you for, um, figuring out that that's important and intentional. And, um, I, in relationships that are, um, maybe in trouble, I think somewhere they forgot how to do that or what to do. Or there's this assumption that when people get married, that now they have to be each other's only thing. Um, and that's not healthy. Yeah. I mean, it's enmeshment and codependency and like, we could go down all that list too.

Tom:

Yes, we could.

Debee:

It's anxious attachment. Like, what are all those things? And if we want to be healthy, then let's take a look at, okay, what makes me, me, what makes you, you, what is our, you, me? Things that cross over that we do well together like let's talk about like home Responsibility. Um, I know in our home like we could talk about yard work Carrie and I will never plant a tree together never because he'll do it one way I want to do it a different way and we're just gonna argue Therefore, we're not doing it. How cool is that to figure out we are never going to plant a tree together.

Tom:

Yeah,

Debee:

right It's just off

Tom:

the table.

Debee:

It's just off the table. Yeah, why

Tom:

fight?

Debee:

Why? Exactly, like why borrow that kind of worry? Yeah,

Tom:

there's something so powerful as silly as that may sound but just don't plant the tree Don't

Debee:

know like

Tom:

why do we hear it

Debee:

out or he could go do it and it'll live and I could go do it and it Will live but doing it together. We're not gonna live.

Tom:

Yeah,

Debee:

just kidding

Tom:

It's probable. How do you negotiate those things? how do you get into an environment where a couple has the ability and safety to know and That they can engage in that hard work of negotiating what's important and priorities. I

Debee:

think that they first have to start with the permission of if they are overwhelmed in a situation feeling flooded You know, their, um, heart rate is raising over a hundred, which typically means that, you know, the temperature is raising that it's okay to step away and, um, step away in a healthy way that says, Hey, I just have to cool off and come back to this conversation. Not step away and collect all your ammunition to come back to the conversation and, you know, fire off all your ammunition of why the other person sucks. Like, that's not okay. But just, just step away and be like, I just need to self soothe right now. Come back to this conversation in a way that says, what do I want in the relationship? Um, what is it that I would like the relationship and my person to understand where I'm coming from? And how am I going to show up in that? There is this thing called subjective reality. So we're sitting here right now. My reality is I'm looking at you. You're on a cream colored couch and the blinds are drawn behind you. My also reality is we're in my office together. Okay. What's your reality? Is your reality that I'm sitting on a cream colored couch and there's blinds behind me? It's not. You've got your own reality of what's happening in this office right now. And so working with people to understand that we have these subjective realities, that they're, there might be some commonality, however, it's also different.

Tom:

The trips, by the way, to circle back to what you're talking about was recognizing and getting into moments of high stress where it was, we each need a, a

time,

Tom:

you know, to get away from this. For Liza, when it was, when our kids were young, you know, she would just get. Tired and exhausted and fried and I was traveling and gone all the time and I would come in town and We would negotiate that and really what she wanted to do is go to st George with no one the time scrapbooking was a rage. I don't even think I don't even know if that's a thing Yeah, it was scrapbooking for years and then all of a sudden to her point like we're no more we're not planting trees anymore

No,

Tom:

like there's no more scrapbooking like that's out but That time away was so valuable in those years. where she would come back a different person and I would do, you know, that similarly. So time away, I think is.

Debee:

And time away, if you were traveling, doesn't mean that traveling is time away. Sometimes it is, you know, if you're at a hotel in the evening, but you're still not at home.

Totally.

Debee:

So it just still needs to look different and intentional. Traveling for work is. Now, could it be held as a resentment in a relationship? Sure. You get to be in a hotel. You don't get to have to put the kids to bed and clean up cereal and like whatever the case is like, it may look like that, but it's also not that.

Tom:

Yeah. We had to navigate that because there was a perception of you're gone in your in

Debee:

whatever

Tom:

the Caribbean on a business trip. And it was like, yeah, but I wasn't alone.

Debee:

Yeah.

Tom:

You know, and it's not

Debee:

the Caribbean with my spouse where we're snorkeling and having, you know,

right.

Tom:

A good time.

Debee:

Yeah. Yeah.

Different.

Tom:

Yeah. Very different. What else would you say to couples, you know, based on your experience, what you're seeing clinically that come in today? Other great tools.

Debee:

Um, you know, I think that oftentimes you hear a lot of things about boundaries, the word boundaries, or I don't feel safe. Um, I think that it's important to one, to take a look and listen to what that is about. Because we really do need to assess if there is true boundary violations or safety issues happening. But, um, if we just looked at, like, what are a few of the non negotiables? And then what's of our, what are our areas of flexibility? Um, I, I believe that the idea of boundaries for couples, individuals, and relationships really needs to take, you know, be taken a look at as And here's the non negotiable and here's my flexibility in a way that just doesn't say here's my line and don't cross it. Now are there some things in safety that need to be here's my line and don't cross it? Absolutely. But you hear a lot of that. In the world these days. Yeah, and um, I just don't know if it's all of that as well as um anxiety You got stress. You have overwhelm you have anxiety you have panic and um, each of them require some skill to manage and uh in the idea of grit and understanding those skills, you know, um overwhelmed stress anxiety You know, sometimes we need to just take a step back. Sometimes we need sleep. Sometimes we need to eat healthy or exercise or You know, there's just ways to take a look at all of those things. Um, So that a person can feel like life is doable. I really like that term doable I really like the idea of finding joy But if you look at you know, some people do are genetically loaded with anxiety depression bipolar You know severe mental illness that kind of stuff But it doesn't mean that they can't have joy in their life. It just means that they get to figure out how to navigate those kind of diagnoses with interventions that they can do and practice every single day so that they can have joy in their life.

Tom:

So good. There's so much there, you know, to, to think through and unpack. Is there still a stigma about mental health and therapy? Oh, yes.

Debee:

Now the good news is, well, not the good news. Okay. So let's talk about the pandemic for a second. That was super terrible, but there's, um, two things that came out of it. That's good. Tell your sister a few more minutes, a few things that came out of it. One, our grocery carts are cleaner. That's really good. Yes.

Tom:

That's

Debee:

two.

Tom:

That's so key.

Debee:

Two, um, mental health accessibility with telehealth and stuff like that is way better now. Um, in the world, you know, earlier in this, we talked about technology. The nice thing that social media has done is it's, it's tried to, you know, there's people out there that have talked about mental health and I believe that the needle is moving Around mental health. However, what I would like to see is the needle move to We don't have to be victims of this. It might be a rock in our backpack of life, which is serious, but we can do the things to feel like we are alive, to behave like we are alive, to take the things that, and I say that in a kind way of take, but take the things that help us find joy. Um, in my previous career working with adults with, um, SPMI, severe bipolar, schizophrenia, stuff like that. One of the. I can't even explain how lucky I was to get to be a part of this, but bringing the clubhouse model into Davis County Journey House Clubhouse, it helped individuals find purpose. They worked on it. They came into that clubhouse and learned how to be receptionists, learned how to manage a thrift store, learned how to manage a little snack shop, learned how to cook and get food downloader's permits, and then we helped them get jobs out in the community. In doing those things went on social activities together, bowling, um, up to like peach city and Brigham, like different kinds of things where they got to be connected. They weren't their diagnoses. And, um, and I believe that that is like that for any of us, whether it's stress, anxiety, depression or a severe mental illness. Like we don't have to be that. We may have that in our backpack of life, but it doesn't have to define us. We get to choose how we want to be defined. I got to choose by these examples of me growing up and people that cared for me in my village of what it is and who I wanted to become and am still becoming.

Tom:

There's so much power and strength what you describe, just to describe to people. I think that at times in the physical health world, we're okay with getting injured, you get it fixed and you move on. You know, you don't necessarily walk around life going, well, I'm a knee injury survivor,

right?

Tom:

You know, and this is my diagnosis. It doesn't have to define you or label you that way, but in mental health, it tends to be that way

Debee:

often.

Tom:

And so I think people are scared to get diagnosed.

Debee:

Right. You can't, you can't see it or yeah, there is a fear of getting diagnosed. What if it was like, okay, let's just take a look at like what it is I have. So I know then my roadmap to help it out. Like what if that was how we thought about mental health? All right.

Tom:

Well, I think that's the goal, right? So many people are fearful of that label or stigma, but yeah, there's, that's so great to just hear the labeling idea that it, I'm not defined by it, even though I, I am it.

Debee:

Yeah. I, you know, I'm diagnosed, I have an anxiety diagnosis. I actually love anxiety a little bit. I shouldn't say I love it a whole bunch, but it also like anxiety, like gets shit done. Yeah,

totally. Yeah.

Debee:

And there's that part of it. What I don't like is if I haven't had enough sleep, if I haven't eaten well, if I haven't exercised, then the anxiety super impacts me negatively. And I have to take a look at my S's. Or my, you know, wellness wheel and get back on track.

Tom:

There is an upside to all of it. If learn to manage, and I, that's my takeaway from you today is just, you know, the ability to have the tools to manage it differently and to cope with it differently. I think that's so powerful. Any parting thoughts? Freestyle on any topic.

Debee:

Um, I think that my parting thought would be for individuals, people, to just, like, if you are that person that's thinking, I don't know if I can do it. Oh, that's all talk. Or that's just what I've heard. Like, just take the first step. That's it. The first step. Take that first step and then the next step will happen. Thank you. You know, if it's, um, you don't want to, you know, you're depressed and you don't, your hygiene is not good. Take a shower today. It'll, and just sit there then after you take a shower and think about, okay, how's this feel? What's my intrinsic reward to taking that shower? I don't know. I, if I had parting words, I would want people to believe in that they too get to have joy. You got yin and yang.

Yeah.

Debee:

You got good and bad. I mean, it's all going to be there. The babble of the world's going to be there. The sorrow is going to be there. Like those that you're, as long as you are human, you're going to be terminally human.

Tell you're not.

Debee:

Tell you're not. So then let's figure out the other side of it.

Tom:

I love that about you. I love that idea of just own it and, and get the tools and move on. I think that there's so much power in that. You're awesome. Your leadership in the industry and how you are doing what you're doing is huge. It's making a significant difference. I hope you feel that Man,

Debee:

I, yes, I want, I want, okay, so a little side note. I have loved this career and I want clinicians to want to stay and love this career and find that balance. Yeah.

Tom:

I do too. I think that there's. so much demand on therapy, which means there's a lot of demand on the professionals providing it,

right?

Tom:

I hope that it continues to be an industry, whether that's legislatively or other support, insurance, reimbursement, all this stuff. I hope that there continues to be a groundswell of support because without the professionals doing it, there's, there's a recipe for big trouble, you know, in the country, having spent 20 years building, selling, building, selling companies. I strongly feel this way now being on this side in the mental health space that if businesses and companies and individuals would figure out this stuff, the tools that are in therapy, we call it therapy. But in reality, most major corporations, highly successful executives, they have coaches.

And

Tom:

by the way, they're therapists.

If you look at their background

Tom:

in training, the tools are so applicable. I wish there wasn't a stigma, but it is the human. performance cycle. Therapy is just that. How do I get better at finding joy, being successful, facing the trials? So

Debee:

yeah, I wish that the therapy side wasn't so stigmatized. And if there's individuals doing the coaching side, I hope they have a good one and they still figure it out at the end of the day. However you figure out that joy in a healthy way is what's most important to me.

Definitely. Thanks again. Yeah. Great to be with you. Thanks

Debee:

for inviting me.

outro:

The Lift and Make Lighter podcast is brought to you by Levo, a mind care company specializing in assessment, diagnosis, responsible medication management. For more information, visit levomind. com. It's L E V O MIND. com.