Piece Of Mind Podcast

Ep 37: [So This Is 30] Leaving a Marriage, Self-Trust, and Moving to London W/ Jennifer Carlton

• Ashley Badman

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Welcome To So This Is 30, a  series where I sit down with real, everyday women to talk about what it’s actually like to leave your 20s and step into your 30s.

In this episode, Jen shares her journey from ending her marriage to completely transforming her life and finding a version of herself she actually loves in her 30s. 

We discuss the surprising freedom that comes when you let go of society's timeline and have the courage to make decisions based on your own happiness.

Enjoy 🎙️

Speaker 1:

Welcome to. So this Is 30, a little series where I sit down with real, everyday women to talk about what it's actually like to leave your 20s and step into your 30s. We're chatting about all things. No one really prepares you for relationship beginnings and breakups, career pivots, big questions around kids, identity shifts, friendships changing and figuring out who you actually are now, because this decade deserves to be talked about. It's messy, it's powerful and it's worth celebrating, and I can't think of a better way than having honest, unfiltered conversations with women who are right in it. Okay, today's guest is someone who knows way too much about me because we have been best friends since we were 12 years old.

Speaker 1:

Jen is smart and sharp and low-key, one of the funniest people I know. In this episode, she shares the wild ride of her 30s so far, from ending her marriage, moving overseas, completely flipping her life and finding a version of herself she actually loves. We talk about dating in your 30s, pulling the metaphorical thread that unravels everything in your whole life and why. Sometimes doing what's right for you means blowing up your entire timeline and what you thought your life should look like. It is raw, it's hilarious and it's one of my favorite chats that I've ever recorded. Let's get into it.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Peace of Mind podcast, back to our 30 series, which I'm so excited to be talking to another incredible, incredible person. As I said in the intro, I actually know this person very, very well because we have been best friends since we were 12, which is actually insane and I'm so excited that now everyone who listens to my podcast gets to hear her journey, her story, her wisdom, because I love her so much. Welcome, jen. Welcome to the podcast. I'm going to get straight into it with this podcast and get straight into it with the questions, because I know that we don't have long and I know that we're going to have some juicy shit to talk about. So the first thing that I really just want to ask you is what surprised you about being in your 30s so far, and can you quickly first tell us how old?

Speaker 2:

you actually are Okay. So I'm 32. And I think the thing that surprised me most about being in my 30s was how this imaginary checklist that we all have in our heads of what we need to achieve by a certain day is fucking bullshit like, and actually my fees has been so much more fun than what my 20s have been. That, I think, is I mean, I'm only very early into my 30s, but that, I think, has been the most surprising thing so far yeah, so we're both.

Speaker 1:

Well, where are we 32?

Speaker 2:

Are we 32? We are 32. We're 32. We've been friends for 20 years. We're 32.

Speaker 1:

32, I love it. I'm like we're 32. So on that then, what do you think in your mind where you're kind of like this checklist that I have to fill out, what do you think that was for you and where do you actually think that that pressure or expectation had come from?

Speaker 2:

I think there is definitely a societal expectation about relationships and career. I think, and even just like simple stuff, like home ownership, like you want to buy a house before you're 30, ideally meet someone before you're 30, get married before you're 30. People, I think, these days realize kids before 30 might not always be a thing, but you want to have like the relationship, the marriage, the house, the kids if possible. And then, when it comes to career, you want to be like fucking boss, bitch, corporate badass in your career as well. And then when you get to I mean I was getting to like 27, being like my God, I'm getting up there and I was 27, 28 when I got married and I remember thinking like oh, I'm like a late bloomer.

Speaker 2:

But then, like I come into my 30s and I'm just like everything changed like drastically, like I'm no longer married, I don't have a house, I don't even live in Australia anymore, like that's just a few of the things. So we go from like 28 to 32, which is not a long period of time. It's, like you know, four years and I was like stressing about having this checklist of stuff sorted and I was on the path to like live this like certain life and tick these things off until I realized I'm not actually happy. And then I had a bit of growth and things changed in a big way for me and then, like, literally four years later, I am a completely different person For the better, like I, definitely like I love my life. I'm so in love with my life now.

Speaker 2:

I was, you know, I had moments where I was happy at the time but, like, there was obviously like the underlying feeling of, you know, trying to achieve certain goals, to be I also have a bit of a high achiever complex as well, which you know. But to be good and to make sure I'm achieving and I'm doing the right thing in the eyes of like probably, I thought, probably, thought in the eyes of like friends, family, society, but really no one fucking cares. And but you don't realize that till you hit your thirties and you're like, actually, this is all, like this is all. Who made this list?

Speaker 1:

Like it's all made up, you get to your thirties and you start to actually question. It's more so like you question why you're making the decisions that you're making, whereas in your thirties, in your twenties it's like you're not questioning, you're just, you're just doing. There's like this expectation on yourself and I think sometimes we do think it's from outside of ourselves and I think for a lot of people there is an expectation outside of ourselves but a lot of the expectation, especially if you're a high achiever like yourself and I can hard relate to the high achiever complex and the perfectionist complex. And people think perfectionist is like you just want to do well in things, like you just want to do well in school, you don't want to do well in your job. But perfectionist tendencies can play out in every decision you make in your life. I've got to make the perfect decision at the perfect time and have the perfect timeline and all those different things and you can live your whole life based on that.

Speaker 1:

And I love for you that going into your thirties was like this almost light bulb epiphany moment of like wait, wait, wait. What list am I living by and why am I making those decisions and do I even want to make them anymore. Obviously, I know a lot about your life and very grateful for it, because being a part of your life is just the most fun ride ever and I enjoy keeping up to date with everything that you're doing as my, as my best friend. Listening to your telegrams that are like a mini podcast is the light of my morning when I get my coffee. Absolutely love it. But can you kind of let people who are listening know what did your life actually look like in your 20s? What decisions were you making? What did the trajectory I can never say that word and I always try, but anyways trajectory of your life look like in your 20s? We can go into. Well then, what was the point where it was like everything's changed and your whole life changed direction? Fill us in on that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's quite funny, cause I felt like I've always been like quite a happy, optimistic person and I've always like been living on the sunny side of life, right, and so I was very happy up until a point when I was like unhappy. So I felt like the trajectory was just I was just cruising along and then all of a sudden I was like I had a lot of growth because I did a lot of work with you. I had a lot of growth personally and also in my career, and all of a sudden I just kept getting this feeling about like this can't be it right, like this feels, like this doesn't feel like aligned right. But basically, my 20s I pretty much spent my whole 20s in a relationship. I got in a relationship when I was 21 and I did a little bit of travel. When I finished uni, I started working in a hotel and I started, like you know, as a hotel receptionist. I was in hospitality and I was like, yep, I want to travel the world and like I'll start working in a hotel because I'll get like discounts and so I can travel places. But then I was in in a relationship and then obviously, your goals change. We had like goals together what we wanted to do. Then you know we're like, hey, let's get married. And I suppose like, okay, let's try and buy a house, and I think like we're just sort of cruising along.

Speaker 2:

And then I pivoted to a role with work where things started to really change for my career, where I was like no, I actually feel like I've got a career focus, whereas before I was like work is just you know, I'm here to live my life. You know, work is just going to fund like travels and adventure. And then I got onto a path where I was like no, I found something that I really enjoyed doing and I just met a whole new group of people. It was a very international company, so I traveled a lot to Europe for work trips and around Australia a little bit, and I went to the US once as well, like I was just having the best time meeting all these people from different backgrounds and different walks of life. And I think like working in hospitality in like Sydney, where there's a lot of international people coming and going and you work with a lot of people that are on visas and then staying in that industry, but working in like I work in the tech space now and you meet people with different backgrounds. It honestly, for me, opened my perspective of like there's not actually one way to live your life.

Speaker 2:

And so I would say, like the place where I'm working now I've been at for three and a half years and like that, I think, is when things started to slowly. It started to like, okay, I'm on a bit more of an upward trajectory. And then I remember like, like everyone says, this COVID is a pivotal moment in everyone's lives. But I remember COVID was probably like the lowest point ever, cause I just felt like really fucking stuck. And then, after COVID got this job, I started getting on that upward trajectory, really progressing my career, opening up to opportunities.

Speaker 2:

And then I started like doing a lot of mindset work, because it's something I'd never done before and, yeah, through that I think it was just like really slowly, slowly, softly, softly, getting to know myself more, understanding a bit more about what I want in my life. And then I was really like looking at all these different areas of things I wanted to improve because I achieve. I'm like, okay, let's unpack this. All right, career, what can I do? Then, okay, personal life or health, like what can I do? And then the one box that I didn't want to open was the relationship box, because I was like we don't want to look in there.

Speaker 2:

Um, and eventually it came to the point where I'm like, well, I'm happy with everything else, but I still feel like you know, this can't be. It like why do I feel unsatisfied? And then, obviously, like I think the analogy I gave you was I know, I see it's a loose thread. I can see that loose thread at the corner of my eye and I know if I pick it it will unravel. And eventually I did pick it, it unraveled and the relationship ended. So I did get married in that time in my twenties, married for like three years and yeah, so ultimately that relationship ended. And then, since that relationship ended, it has been, I've been catapulted. So if I think of like a graph, it's like you know, cruising, cruising, cruising in early twenties, mid twenties, okay, starting to, yeah, and then all of a sudden it's like off the charts. The change in the past 12 months has been insane.

Speaker 1:

It's actually been quite mind blowing to witness from like outside and to like see the decisions that you've had to make. And I think it's important to note as well with what you've just said, of like in your 20s. That's a big chunk of your life. Like you were in your early 20s when you entered this relationship. You stayed in this relationship, you got married, you were together for three years in your marriage and ultimately, looking at a part of your life that you know, when you look at it, you're going to find things where you have to make big and hard and scary decisions.

Speaker 1:

For a lot of people like you're in your late 20s, in your mind it's like no, I'm meant to be staying in this marriage now and maybe thinking about buying a house and am I thinking about children? Do I want them? Do I not want them? You're kind of at that phase where maybe you think that you're meant to be having those questions and thinking about those things, but for you that's not the questions that you wanted to be asking yourself, or it didn't feel right to be asked those questions because you knew there was something else you had to be asking. And I think like it's so important to note your courage and bravery in that, because it's I do think it is it's an easier decision to turn a blind eye to something than to look at it and realize that you have to be the one to make a big, hard decision and remembering like, yeah, your life looks so fun and beautiful right now.

Speaker 1:

You're in your 30s, you're living in London, you're working an amazing job, you just went to, like Portugal I think it was for the weekend, all those different things right, but, like, what people I think don't see is that messy middle part of like actually there was a lot of pain and hurt that you had to go through with making big, big decisions and you had no idea how it was going to work out for you. You had to then face okay, well, I'm going to be single in my thirties and I haven't been single since my early twenties. And what is even dating? How does one even do that? Am I going to live overseas? Am I not? Will that work for me? Like there was a lot of unanswered questions and you had to make the decision without knowing the outcome.

Speaker 1:

So to say that your life changed from your twenties to your thirties is like the world's biggest understatement. Your whole life was flipped on its head and you were like here, what are you going to do with it? Can you speak with us through that moment of like after the decision of deciding to leave your marriage, and that kind of middle ground of like, what am I actually going to do now? Like, holy shit, my twenties are done, I'm now in my thirties, but my whole life is of. What I thought it was going to be is gone.

Speaker 2:

I think it was kind of insane because, like for me and I'm sure I'm not alone in this experience as the other people to relate because I think for me I always thought if a marriage or relationship was to break down after like when I say relationship I mean like long-term relationship I always thought there would be a catalyst for it, right, like there would be one event like someone's cheated, someone's like been abusive, or like there's been like an event that's caused it, whereas for me it was like there was not one event and it was like he's never going to cheat and that like and I'm never going to cheat.

Speaker 2:

But I know that we've grown apart, we've gone different like sort of directions, I guess, and actually the only way out of this is for me to make the hard decision. And so it was like this slow build-up over time to the point where you had to be having to make that decision and then, when that decision was made, it was just like I think I was very fortunate that I had such a good network of friends and family around me, but also having to back myself to be like this is the right decision, and I think honestly like I had lost touch of my intuition for a very long time, and when I started to notice it come back was during that time of when I felt uneasy and that like the relationship needed to end, and the whole time that I was going through it and it was messy and I probably could have done things differently and handled it better and whatever. But like the whole time I was like I just know in my gut that this is the right thing to do and it was honestly just like really having that self-belief, which is fucking hard. Like there would be people out there in relationships that they know they shouldn't be in but are scared to leave because they actually can't back themselves. They don't have that hope or compassion for themselves to realize when it's run its course.

Speaker 2:

And so, yeah, I think that was that was the biggest thing for me is just really having to be like back yourself in this. But I also was very fortunate to have like a really good network of people around me that when I said, hey, this is what's going on, people either said that they like weren't surprised or that like you know that they're there for whatever I need. So that obviously helped a lot as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think the self-trust and self-belief is a big one and, like I was obviously again fortunate enough to even though Jen is my best friend since we were 12, jen has been a part. She's come to my retreat, she's been a part of programs that I've run specifically. This all was kind of unfolding in one of my programs, which was the unapologetic woman, and there was like literally a comment in one of the threads where she's like there's, and it was exactly what you said before. You're like I know that there's a thread that I need to pull, but I'm scared if I pull it it will unravel. And it's like the really cool thing about you Jen is like you have done a lot of work on yourself, a lot of deeper reflection, realization, understanding your beliefs, understanding you know how your childhood has shaped it. You were like you left that comment and then I think it was within a week that everything had started to like. Everything had started to like happen, unravel decisions we're making because you trusted yourself, because you could listen to yourself and be like actually I am worth listening to.

Speaker 1:

And I think a lot of the time, if we don't have that self-trust and we can't listen to our own inner voice.

Speaker 1:

It's easy to blanket it right, it's easy to be like no, this makes no sense, you're being silly bubble and quiet and quiet and quiet and push down our own voice, and I think that you just got to a point where you're like, actually what if I listened to myself, even if it was scary and it was hard, and I think that that is really, really something that I hope that you're super, super proud of. So your 20s was married, living in. You were living in Western Sydney. At the time, I think that you were kind of on the path of saving to buy a house. End of 20s, marriage ends, you decide to leave your marriage, you move back in with your parents and now you are living in London. I really want to know, from just from your perspective of that version of you in her 20s, the beliefs that she had about herself. What would you say now, sitting there at 32 in a different country, living a different life?

Speaker 2:

What beliefs about yourself have shifted from 20 year old you, oh, my God, I honestly think almost my entire belief system about myself, I thought. I think I thought a lot of my worth came from being good and performing, and I remember feeling very empty by it when I would feel so overworked because I had this habit. And then this is ultimately what happened, played out in the relationship of abandoning myself. And so when I look back in areas in my 20s where I've had frustrations whether it's been in like relationships and not just romantic, but maybe with friendships and with work I've abandoned myself because I'm like, well, I've got to be the good friend, I've got to be the good partner, I've got to be the good employee, so, and maybe if I'm good enough, I'll be worthy. And I think like that is the biggest belief system that I have challenged and like fucking knocked on the head and because I never, ever want to be in a position where, especially in a relationship, where I've abandoned myself again. And but the other thing as well is when, I will say is when I was coming out of that relationship and I was starting to talk to people about it because I kept a lot of it myself being a. I didn't really tell anybody until I probably made the decision already in my head, which is really fucking bad. And I think I didn't tell anybody because I felt so guilty that I was feeling this way. I thought like I was the only person in the world that was going through this and I thought, thought like there, it made no sense for me to feel like this, because you know, they're not a bad person, it's just that we weren't good to get like. We got to a point where it just was no longer. We had hit the end of the road, basically, and it wasn't until like cause I had this belief system so deeply ingrained.

Speaker 2:

But then I started talking to people and I realized actually it's really fucking common. And one of my I had a friend who I worked with. She's based in the Netherlands and she literally was on the same timeline as me, just a year in advance, and we were talking, we're comparing about like our experiences, and we had the exact same, identical experiences on opposite sides of the world in different relationships, but like same duration, same timeline in terms of like getting married and all that sort of stuff and same age. And I was like this is actually not universal, but it's more common than you think.

Speaker 2:

And I think, like through those experiences of talking to more women about it, um, and also talking to older women and getting like their advice, like I have some beautiful older friends that like they went through something similar at a similar age and then I look at them and I'm like, but they're fucking thriving and they're living their best life and they're in in the most you know, and all parties are happier now because that event has happened. So I think it's a combination of like, yeah, challenging the belief systems, but also like talking about it, be open and vulnerable enough to share your story, because sometimes I think you being vulnerable about your story invites other people to tell their story and then, like, almost there was a community in that and through like that storytelling and that sharing of our experiences, that's also helped me challenge my belief systems that I held in my twenties. Yeah, oh, my God, I'm obsessed with that.

Speaker 1:

I'm literally obsessed. I'm like that is literally like the premise of my whole entire business, like I do love that, because it's like how often do women at any age have thoughts, feelings, beliefs, experiences that they keep to themselves because they have shame or guilt? I shouldn't feel like that, I shouldn't have this experience or whatever it is, or make themselves wrong for that. And it's like when you actually say out loud you're seen in your experience and obviously with people that you trust and all the different things. But and I see this all the time in many different areas of whether it is about relationships or it's about past trauma healing out loud is the term. Like healing out loud, actually being able to share your experience, remove the shame and guilt from whatever you're feeling and guarantee you, I guarantee you, the person that you're talking to will be like shit.

Speaker 1:

I felt like that, or I've experienced that, or I know someone who's experienced that. And it's just that one moment where you're like wait what? Like I'm not alone, someone else has felt this way, and you've like it's like that is so healing, like it's like a sentence and people think healing is like all the inner child work and all the ego work, and it is, but healing is also one sentence back of like, yeah, no, I felt that as well, and being able to have a conversation with someone, I think, is so cool. So it was brave of you to do that, though, to have those conversations, and it's funny because I know I remember you telling me this of why you're like. You know, I started telling some dude I was standing next to when I was overseas or whatever, and he was like, oh my God, that's happening in my relationship.

Speaker 2:

And people just start opening up to you. But, like, because I remember I was, I moved back in with my parents and then the next day I flew out to Prague for a work conference. So it was all happening Like, and one of the guys that I work with in the team, who's based in France, like he's like chatting, he's like how are you going? Like, and he asked something about like how's your husband? And no one to be honest, none of my work friends really asked that question. So at first I was a bit taken aback but I thought like I just was like, oh, fyi, this is what's happening.

Speaker 2:

And at first he I felt a bit judged by his reaction, but I think it was just him projecting onto me initially, because he was like well, don't everyone, doesn't everyone have problems in their relationship? And I was sort of sat there a bit like okay, I don't really know how to take that. And then, like I didn't really say anything for a second and then he was like, yeah, actually me and my girlfriend have been having um troubles as well, and what's interesting is that they now have split as well. Again, it's just one of those things where I think people's when you're just when you're willing to be open and vulnerable. You might get a bit of a blunt reaction at first, but then I think he was also willing to be vulnerable and share that with me as well. But yeah, sometimes I think it invites people to share their experiences and then yet you can actually bond and not feel so alone and not feel so crazy and stupid. Because I literally felt so crazy. I was like what is wrong with me? Like shove these feelings down, and I would do that until I got to a point where I'm like these feelings aren't going away, like something needs to change here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's one of those things it's like who you choose to spend the rest of your life with is the biggest decision you'll ever make in your life, and it will either help you grow or it will keep you limited. I think that relationships serve a purpose for the time that they're meant to serve a purpose, and for some people that's forever. Some people are meant to be with the same person forever and that relationship is beautiful and they grow together and they work on themselves together, and for some people it's a shorter period of time and that's okay. But I think the saddest thing is for a lot of people that are having the experience where maybe it is a shorter period of time, but they're so scared of what life looks like outside of the relationship.

Speaker 1:

And I experienced that and I was what? How old was I? I went 24, 25, so still quite young, although I felt so old at that time because I already had kids. I look back at that and I'm like you're a baby, but you were there. Jen actually came to my non-existent wedding, so alive we had so much fun.

Speaker 1:

We had so much fun. So Jen came to Rarotonga in the Cook Islands where I was supposed to be getting married islands, um, where I was supposed to be getting married, and also what a great best friend. Literally coming to the Cook Islands, which is not cheap, very expensive holiday, I had to ring her. I remember when I was so scared to ring you and I remember ringing you and just being like so about that wedding that's in two weeks of you know that you're booked, all of these expensive flights and accommodation for it's not happening and it's fucking scary.

Speaker 1:

Like in making that decision, and that was such a scary decision because you do have all of those thoughts of like well, what does life look like for me outside of this relationship? And those thoughts they do creep in of like am I going to be alone forever? Am I ever going to find anybody? Like, what does my life actually look like outside of that? And I think for a lot of women that thought, especially late 20s, like making that decision late 20s, I feel like that thought can sometimes be so overpowering that you then listen to it and you stay in a relationship that maybe you're not actually happy in. So I would love to know from you, jen how did you navigate that period of like, what next? And what were your thoughts on? Like, okay, am I going to date now? Like, am I like 30s and dating? How does this work? Like, fill me in.

Speaker 2:

Well, before I answer that question, just on the Rarotonga stuff, what was really interesting is like I remember, because you were so scared to tell me. I remember and like obviously I wasn't going to judge you because I was going to support you no matter what, but I remember when you were telling me this about like the wedding not going ahead, I was sat in the car about to go in look at a wedding venue for my wedding and this was because originally our wedding was going to be like a normal wedding. But obviously then when we got married it was around COVID and then you were stuck in Melbourne and then now I've joked that the reason the marriage didn't work is because you weren't at the wedding.

Speaker 1:

So the next one I was there, virtually, I zoomed. I literally got dressed up in my fucking lounge room in Melbourne and I sat on a zoom and I was in a zoom room with, like all of all of their family, which cracks me up, but like I didn't attend in person, so that's definitely why 100% like I think just next time we'll plan a bit better, we'll make um.

Speaker 1:

I'll check your availability before anybody else's as soon as you get engaged, you're like I've just got to ring Ash and see if she can attend the wedding Otherwise.

Speaker 2:

I'm not planning anything. When can I get married? I need to run it by you. When are we allowed?

Speaker 1:

Okay, that is actually the best. But no, I was scared to tell you. I was scared to tell you, I think, for so many reasons, for the same reasons as you just said, though, like you hold so much shame and guilt, and, like for me, I definitely had the thoughts of like, but you should just stay in this relationship, get married and then figure it out afterwards. Like everyone's coming to your wedding, everyone's paid for the tickets, and like he was like we should just do it and I was like you know what? Same as you, same exact thing of like it got to a point like a sand, like drawing a line in the sand, of just like, actually, I've been abandoning myself for like eight years. Eight years. I have not listened to myself, I've not made the decision that is best for myself.

Speaker 1:

And, yes, is it scary to ring all of our family and friends and tell them that the wedding that they just put so much money into is not happening? Of course it is, but what's scarier to me is marrying somebody who I know is not right for me, and knowing that at the time and still going ahead with it would have just been a disaster. And also, do you remember how you handled it. Because you handled it absolutely like chef's kiss perfection. You said to me because I remember being like I don't know what I should do, like if I should just do it, and you were like Ash, you are not going back to him yeah, yeah, no.

Speaker 2:

I very much was like don't ever, yeah, be in a position because I think also, when you leave the relationship I know I was the same you start telling stories that you weren't comfortable telling your friends while you were in that relationship and then a lot of your friends are like what the fuck?

Speaker 1:

literally like that. Actually, the truth in that is because when you're in a relationship, I feel you, even though I think there are things that you aren't happy with in that relationship. You do love that person like you do the other person and you feel like it's your responsibility to protect their image. Right? So you're like you don't want to tell your friends and family things that you're actually struggling with in the relationship that involves the person, because you're like well, I want to protect it how they, I want my friends to love him or my family to. I don't want them to dislike him. So it's not. Until afterwards you start being like, yeah, this is actually what was like, what had happened, and your friends and family are like what the fuck?

Speaker 2:

and you'll just say it as like a casual off-the-cuff remark and be like oh yeah, I forgot, like I never told anybody also.

Speaker 1:

That's not like, although it's not okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was funny, though, when I the last day before I flew out to London to like live here, I was obviously spending time with family, and then I spent a long time with, like my sister, and before I left she gave me a lecture about like being safe and all this sort of stuff, and but then she was also like and don't ever not tell us those things again, like you need to tell us when you're not like, when things aren't going good, because I like to my family. It was a surprise, because obviously I hadn't like and maybe it's like a I'm a Capricorn and I'm a oldest child. I just I just feel like like I don't know if Letitia would hear this, but I fucking love her, but I just feel like she knows my birth chart right, like I did this reading with her like a couple of days ago and I feel like she would be like Jen, yeah, that is so you to keep it to yourself.

Speaker 1:

I love that Letitia's getting a cheeky plug. Everyone go get a reading with Letitia.

Speaker 2:

I fucking love her. Everyone needs to like let it.

Speaker 1:

I actually have a question for you, then, because that actually makes me also think about the version of you in your twenties versus now. How connected do you feel to yourself spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically in your thirties compared to how you did in your twenties?

Speaker 2:

So much more connected, like I think there was. Definitely I've had a bit more of a spiritual journey, I feel, which is which was surprising. I wasn't expecting it, and it also came from the apologetic woman unapologetic woman group, because that's when I first met Letitia and she did those birth chart readings for all of us and I remember thinking because I'd never had one. And then I've been, so I sort of dipped my toe in the water and I just was like actually, like I just feel I sort of just explored like my own belief systems and like I'm not really prescribed to religion or had was surrounded by that growing up. But then I was just like open to this world of like, actually, like whatever you want to call it, whether it's your belief in like the universe or humanity or whatever. It was just so nice actually to surrender to something that was outside of me, because I used to try and control everything and think everything is in my control and you know we have free will and all that sort of stuff. But like it was so nice to be like let it go, like what will be will be, and when I started to let go of the need to control and the need for things to play out a certain way.

Speaker 2:

That's when I had the most like insane trajectory, like I all of a sudden I'd get like a promotion, or the pay rise would come through or be an opportunity to like to travel overseas or to like move overseas in my case as well now, but like, yeah, so much, I forgot the regional question. But I'm just going to go on a tangent, but like I'm just on a roll because I'm just thinking, because I literally this reading that Letitia did for me the other day was so good. I've been thinking about it ever since, um, and I've just, yeah, I've been reflecting a lot on like the spiritual side of things and how far I've come with, yeah, just with that sort of thing. I've never really was in touch with that. I never really explored it because I just wasn't exposed to it, I guess.

Speaker 1:

I relate to that too, and I wonder if that is a 30s thing, because, like, are we more skeptical in our 20s? I feel like we might be. Like I was like very skeptical of things, like if things didn't make logical sense to me. Then I'm like like I don't know why. I just need and I think it's a control thing as well I like to be in control of things, I like to know things, I like to make sense of things and I think with things that are spiritual, it's kind of like the opposite of that. You kind of have to surrender and let go and trust and listen and it not always make sense. It not always make sense how you're feeling all the different things.

Speaker 1:

That was really really hard for me as well. And then, entering my thirties the last, I reckon, two years, 31, yeah, 30, 31, 32. I have, like I get a fortnightly card reading by Letitia. I'm like I need to hear your voice every single fortnight Tell me what's going on with my astrology. I never in my life thought I would be someone that wants to know my astrology every single fortnight and wants to have a card reading every single fortnight, but I'm like obsessed with it. I'm obsessed.

Speaker 2:

I think I was very skeptical as well, because I just didn't really have anything to like believe in outside of myself and I think it's not like there's a lot of misconceptions about it and I just think you know, take what feels good and leave what doesn't. But like it was just really nice, just to hear, I don't know, it just feels really wholesome. It's like, at the end of the day, you're not being, it's not I don't know how to explain it Like I'm not probably making very much sense, but yeah, it was, it's just like, and you can edit this shit out but like it's just been really nice, just to sort of I don't know, just be and just explore things and have no expectations about doing something good. And sometimes I get really into it and other times I'll go months without thinking about it. So it's just which I just think is nice.

Speaker 2:

I feel like, in a way, like I've had so many areas open up in my life where I feel more free just to, and free to be fucking messy as well Like to not have it work figured out, because for so long, for a major part of my twenties, I was like I have to have it figured out and the fear of failure, or the fear of, like, not being as good or good enough, like what does enough look like? Because it never felt like I was enough, whereas, like now, I'm just like, yeah, I'm into spirituality, and then other times I'm like, yeah, I could take it or leave it, and then you know, because it's just freedom to just make those decisions and just ebb and flow, I think, is what it feels like now Just ebb and flow, I think, is what it feels like now, which, for you, is like such huge growth, like to hear you be like, actually I just have like so much freedom and I don't need to know the answers to absolutely everything.

Speaker 1:

Like I kid you not, I've said I've known this girl since I was 12. The level of like perfectionism she's not joking, okay. So, our first ever interaction, one year, we're in grade seven. First ever interaction. First, yes, we're in grade seven, right, first ever interaction. First time starting high school, I get sat next to beautiful little Jennifer Carlton, just this innocent, cute, little, cute as a button little gal, and she's there with her, with her really like organized textures, like color coded, like you know, very organized, and I was like, excuse me, I'm like, excuse me, can I just borrow one of them? And she was like no. And I was like, oh, okay, I know she's like she had a thing with like sharing, like you really did not, and I'm almost certain that carried all through high school, like if she had a really delicious food or something. And you're like, oh, can I have a bite or can I have like a piece or something? She'd be like no yeah, I was.

Speaker 2:

You make me sound like I was kind of a bitch. I just liked my stuff a certain way. Wait a a minute.

Speaker 1:

Wait a minute. I just loved being really old she did. She wasn't a bitch, obviously not. We're still friends, like what. I don't know how many years that is later, but a bajillion years later. But so odd because we're like basically 21. Do?

Speaker 2:

you want to know a funny side story to that. I remember I was backpacking in Southeast Asia one time and like I was with like one of my um, like good friends that I had also met traveling, and then there was this other guy that was traveling with us as well and like I'd bought a book and I was talking about how interesting the book was and he asked to borrow it. But I had literally seen him in one of the bunks in the hostel like eating like my jar of Nutella that I had bought for myself, because I was like I miss, like I just want like a taste of home, and he was eating like from my jar of Nutella with his fingers and like like licking his fingers off. It was fucking gross. And so he had like grubby, like this guy. This guy, I think, was like 28 at the time I remember I was like 21 and he asked to borrow my book and so if he could read it, I was like no, I just think you'd get it dirty.

Speaker 1:

The thing about you, though like you're just really honest, like that is one thing you have always had across the board. You're very good at boundaries and you're very good at honesty. Like you just say, like what is on your mind, you just say it, and like that is actually. Women everywhere can learn from this, because something that you don't do and I and I mean you've probably done it across your, your lifespan, I'm sure but something that I've noticed about you and always actually admired in you is this you don't really have this need to have to explain yourself, like you will just say what you need to say and that be it, and I've always admired that, because sometimes I'll be like, if I say no about the book, I'll be like, no, like you can't read the book, just because, like what if I want to read it again? And then it might get lost, and then, like I would let you, maybe I could, maybe I'll buy you another one Like, and you're like instead of this book.

Speaker 2:

have like, take my bag instead, have this instead. And then you're like you're just standing there with no money, no backpack, you just have every other possession and all you have is, like this $10 book I'm scared to say no about the book, like literally, but like that has like been something I've really had to work on.

Speaker 1:

But it's something I genuinely have admired in you, where you can just say like no is a full answer for you and I'm like I actually genuinely love that about you because that that takes a level of self-trust and a level of confidence and I know that where I've got to work on you with your mindset for probably what? The last four years? I would say maybe three, four years.

Speaker 1:

And like seeing you build that deeper levels of self-trust, but in a way that includes like surrender and understanding yourself, has been amazing. But I would be lying if I would. I said you didn't have like the world's best foundation to work with someone on their mindset, because you were very open. You're very curious, you ask the questions, you say what you need to say, you say what you want to say and I think that that's always something you've naturally had and something you've always very naturally had is like a crazy amount of optimism.

Speaker 2:

yeah, like to the point where sometimes I used to think, like am I dumb? Like am I so happy that I'm actually really stupid? You know, like there's people, you see them, they're like not a thought in their head and they're like god, it must be so good to be really like dumb because you're happy I think you've ever said if anyone knew jen, she's like literally the least dumb person.

Speaker 1:

In our high school she was like quite literally the smartest girl in our whole entire grade. Like literally the smartest. You were so smart at uni, like literally not dumb at all, but I love that. You're like wait, am I happy? Because I'm actually stupid.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, you know what I picture when I'm feeling really optimistic and really grateful and I'm really happy and I'm like, am I? I'm like Amanda Seyfried in Mean Girls what's her name in the movie. She's so happy, she's such a beautiful soul and I'm like I feel like her. When I'm just being optimistic because I'm like, am I actually dumb?

Speaker 1:

like everyone who squeezes her boob when she thinks it's raining. It's like a 90% chance it's already raining. Well, literally not like her at all, which is fucking hilarious that you see yourself like that. Okay, before I don't want to wrap up without talking about something that I think is very important for women in 20s, going into 30s, and I want to know your view on it and and how kind of your any shifts that you've had specifically with your appearance and body image from 20s to 30s. Have you noticed any shifts? What is your kind of thoughts on seeing yourself aging? Have you noticed yourself aging? And, yeah, let me know how you feel about that kind of whole thing and your body image that has been very different.

Speaker 2:

So I've grown up always being like a slim person, like that's just my body type. So I've never had like any really like disordered eating or issues with eating. But over that, covid times when I was like getting quite I mean, I never was like diagnosed with depression, but I think everyone got a level of depressed and I did actually gain a bit of weight and I felt really uncomfortable in my body. And that's when I started working with you, because initially it was for nutrition and then, you know, I had this like a lot of women. Do we have this arbitrary number in our head of like okay, this is the goal weight. When this is, I'll feel x and I remember you challenging me, being like what do you think that's going to change by? Because I think I was two kilos off and you were like it was two kilos.

Speaker 1:

I remember clear as day was two kilos and I I remember saying that to you. I'm like what, what's actually going to change when that two kilos is gone?

Speaker 2:

and I literally like was like oh yeah, actually nothing and that's like obviously some mindset stuff I think helped. So I would say early twenties didn't really have too much of a worry about body image, but then towards like mid to late twenties I think I was just getting a bit like not feeling comfortable with myself and wanting just to feel like it definitely came from a good place, of wanting it to be health. But then that obviously was like that superficial side to it which is like probably that societal pressure side to look a certain way. And that's when I think, like you helped me challenge that.

Speaker 2:

What was interesting is when I entered my 30s and obviously like my relationship broke down went last year when I was 31 and I right after I felt haggard. I was like I remember saying to you I was like I just feel like I'm actually really ugly and I like in and it was just I just felt so out of my body, like I just I think it was a comment of what was happening at the time with this relationship breaking down and not really knowing like who I was and my identity and all that sort of stuff. But I remember I would say like the last 12 months has been a really big shift where I've just been really fucking content and I think it's helped that I went back to live with my parents for a little bit as well. I was just in that safe space where I was just kind of heal and just be with, like I have a great relationship with my parents and it's actually was really nice to be in my thirties and live with my parents again, like it's such. It's an experience that not many people have because you know you move out in your 20s and maybe you're in a relationship and you're living on your own, but it was so nice just to be around them again and through that I felt like I just developed better eating habits, naturally, like I just I felt I wasn't thinking about like I used to think about my macros.

Speaker 2:

I used to stress about how much protein I was eating every day. I mean, I still want to make sure I'm eating enough to like fuel me and all that sort of stuff, because I like being active. But I just remember that time when I, right after I split with my ex and being with my parents, I was just like I just feel good, I'm just I'm not thinking about my body when it comes to aging that's. I have noticed signs of aging. I'm 32. And it is interesting because some days I feel okay about it and other days I'm just like I don't know what's happening. I feel like I'm too young for this. My life is a mess I can't be looking like, do you know?

Speaker 1:

what I mean. I love the dramatic contrast of like some days I'm like slay, like you look amazing, and other days I'm like I'm too young for this.

Speaker 2:

No, honestly, like sometimes, I think, because I felt so old when my relationship ended, I felt like, oh my god, like I'm halfway to death. You know, I just felt so old and I was just like, yeah, and then. But then I've sort of realized that actually, like 30, 31, even 32 now, like it's your whole life is ahead of you, like if I was, if I could talk to my 22 year old self, I could say you can fuck up every year for the next 10 years and still be young enough to start again, like that's the, that's the long and short of it, right. And then, when it comes to the aging and an appearance, it's like some days I'm, I think it's a privilege to age, absolutely is, and then other days where I'm just like I need to up the skincare and get a bit more hydrated, so, and get a bit more hydrated, so I would say that's like still, like it's nothing's perfect.

Speaker 2:

My life's not perfect, right, and that's probably something that I'm still coming to terms with. But I'm trying to proceed with a bit of grace and compassion and like trying to be grateful, like centering that feeling in all of it as well. But when it comes to the body image side of things. I feel so good in that, I feel so comfortable. So at home my body's so in tune with my body. But then the aging side of things.

Speaker 1:

I'm like, okay, that's, that's probably what I need to come to grips with next like I feel so good body image wise, which you know my history with body image and eating and things like that so that has been a huge shift in my 30s of just like oh wait, I actually I love my, but I actually feel more that I can feel sexy, I feel all these things in my body that I haven't felt before. The aging thing has been harder than I expected because it's like I didn't even expect it to be coming. I don't know what I thought. I think it was in my heart and in my soul and in my being. I literally feel like I'm 25. Like I feel more energized now and more of a zest for life and more driven and ambitious and excited about my life more now than I did in my 20s. So it's like I feel really, really young. But then I look in the mirror and I'm like that's interesting, like it's just interesting to see yourself look different.

Speaker 1:

And I think and I was saying this to Dave the other day, cause he was setting up something called my computer for me, trying to fix these bloody microphones, and it required him to stare at the camera looking at himself while he was doing it because it was a podcast thing and he's like he said to me he's like wow, is one of my eyebrows really that much lower than the other?

Speaker 1:

And I was like see what happens when you stare at yourself for too long on a camera? And I'm like and that has been my life since I was 25, so started creating content at 25, looking at the camera all of the time, editing my content. So I'm looking at myself doing podcasts, so I'm looking like, constantly looking at myself. So seeing myself, age has actually been a little bit more obvious for me because I've been so hyper-focused on what I look like, I guess because I'm staring at myself so often. And it has been a little bit more challenging and I talked about this on a podcast I just did yesterday because I was like well, I'm only getting older, so it's not like things are going to change more. I'm going to notice more wrinkles, more skin aging and things like that. So I think it is a journey that I'm about to go on, which is funny, because I felt like my twenties was all about healing my relationship with food and I'm like I love my body now, and now I'm like fuck you face.

Speaker 2:

It's so funny because I feel more confident and comfortable in my body now than what I have ever done in my twenties, and I don't look like how I looked in my 20s, but I just feel so and I'm growing in confidence as well, like I am trying to challenge myself. Like you know, I've just started like dance classes just because I don't have a dancing background, by the way, like I literally look like Bambi at the moment, like, but it's just because I'm doing it, because it's fucking fun. I'm also doing it because, like being the high achiever, I'm also challenging that part of me that wants to be good instantly at something, and so, but I feel good in my body and then, yeah, when it comes to the aging stuff, it's, it's such a challenge because I look at, like, look at Kris Jenner and her new face, and she's like and that, like, can women not catch a break? Cause I look at women that are like older than me, and I look up to women that are older than me, that are so at home in themselves and so comfortable in themselves and they've lived life, like you know, and and they give no fucks, and I'm like that. I want to be that when I'm older, you know.

Speaker 2:

I literally was talking to um a colleague today who was saying she's got a friend who's like 60 and, um, she spends all summer like with her girlfriends, having living her best life, and then winter she just has a winter boyfriend and I'm like that's a fucking vibe like and she just sounds like the most fun person ever. And, yeah, like she's not worrying about, like you're not worrying about how you look and how you age. And I wonder when that point comes where I think, like 30s and probably to mid 40s, I feel like you're still looking at yourself being like I need to fit, like a younger mold. And then what's the point where you're like I didn't give a fuck?

Speaker 1:

I think we have that too. I wanted that too, and I also think we have to remember as well. It's like when you hit your 30s and we're only 32, I think that's when you do start to notice these aging things. I feel like in your 20s to your late twenties it's like nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. 30. And then you're like hmm, I don't remember those wrinkles being there, or even just like so I've noticed myself like my eyebrows sit different because my skin obviously like lose, just things look a little bit different. And I think we're only new into that, right, we're at the beginning of our thirties, so I think we're in the beginning of seeing that. Wait, we age and our face is going to look a bit different. Or, you know, things are going to change and I think maybe throughout the rest of our 30s we're going to continue to see that. But I fuck me, I'm hoping when we get to our 40s we're like okay, we're.

Speaker 2:

We're like come to terms with this now, and we're like so okay with it, but you know what I it reminds me of like. So it's funny because we're battling with this aging thing, um, and we know it's going to happen and we want to embrace it. Don't get me wrong if somebody compliments me. Like when I first moved to London, I was staying in a shared Airbnb where you rent a room and I was staying there for a few weeks and there was different guests coming in and out. I was talking to one of these guests that was coming to stay and she was a model and she was like travelling over for work. So she was just staying in Airbnb for the week and they were chatting and like having a nice time. And then she's like so like how old are you? Are you also in your mid twenties? And I was like I'm like, I'm slay. A model thinks I'm like in my mid twenties, like I will take the fucking compliment. Like don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1:

I literally said do you remember when we were in Sydney and we went to buy the drinks like we went to go buy some wines because we're having a girls couple of days and the person who was serving us was like, do either of you have ID? Neither of us had. I don't think we could buy it. But we were like we don't even care, we'll go to a different bottle.

Speaker 2:

Oh, we're so happy, like she was like I'm sorry but I have. I can't serve you if you look like you're under 25 and you don't have ID and we're like, oh my god, slay we didn't even have makeup on just that's what we kept. Oh my god. No makeup and no ID slay.

Speaker 1:

You think we're skin must look so, so funny. It cracks me up so much. But like, clearly, I think there is, like it is this weird patch and I like I do hope that people listen to this that are in their 30s, can I don't know feel, because I start to feel like I'm like what? I'm so young, should I even be worrying about this shit? Like why do I even care? But I would be lying if I didn't say, and it's not like it's every day, all the time I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so some water. Because when you raised your eyebrows the line stayed. We really need to be drinking some more water.

Speaker 1:

But I think it's a cool conversation to have and kind of normalize, especially now. Like I love that we get to have this conversation because AI so people are kind of like putting up images that make them look younger on social media and we're kind of consuming that. And then there's people that are quite literally getting these insane surgeries now that make them look like they're in their 20s, like Kris Jenner, and Lindsay Lohan is another one where she had this. Like her, she looks so young and I try like what I try to do for myself, especially now that I know this is kind of becoming a conversation in my own mind. To get on top of it, I'll follow people like Cameron Diaz or women who are aging and in their mid to late 30s and 40s and 50s, and they are owning their aging.

Speaker 1:

And it's not to make it wrong. If you want to change, I get. I've gotten Botox heaps of times. I think the last time I got Botox was in February February. So I'm definitely not against like, do what you need to do and and do what makes you happy, but also, at the same time, it's like we're only getting older. So I think now is a really great time to prep and prime your mind, to start to, I guess, surround your environment with people that are discussing that, but in a way that feels really empowering and uplifting. Yeah, I think that that's a cool thing to do. I'm so glad that we get to have the conversation. It's kind of like it's funny when you have it and you realize, like I'm like, like, why do I have so much skin on my forehead?

Speaker 2:

for fuck's sake. But you know, and I think like, I kind of like also, but I'm also very much embracing the messiness, right, because I was, I think, the perfectionist in me and the need for control reigned for too long in my 20s and now my 30s, I'm just like life is life and life's just going to life its way at me. So I kind of like that. I don't know how I'm feeling about aging and we'll figure it out as we go and I think like there's a cohort of women in our age group, in just in 30s, that you know, you have your good days, you have your good weeks, you have your bad days, you have your bad weeks, and I'm kind of excited just to see where this journey goes as well. I feel like this is like the next thing to be working on mindset wise.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree, mindset wise. Yeah, I agree, I'm excited and I think even just being excited about the journey of like I wonder where this goes. And also, I think, for myself and anyone else who has had like like a poor relationship with their body and navigated that in their twenties, it's using that and using that journey to help you with this journey as well, but in a way that's, you know, offer yourself more compassion, have better conversations with yourself, like surround yourself with people that uplift you in this type of conversation, rather than make you feel like you're not enough or you don't look enough or you don't look young enough. And I think it is like just not comparing yourself, not comparing yourself. Everyone ages so differently and at different rates and at different paces, for different reasons, and it's just being able to accept that, like this is your journey and your journey alone, and it can be a beautiful one if you let it be, but also that's okay. Some days are not very beautiful and you look in the mirror and you're like, for fuck's sake, like that's actually okay as well.

Speaker 1:

Well, jen, I have absolutely loved, loved, loved having you on the podcast. This is Jen's first ever podcast to get to interview my best friend. It feels just so wholesome and so amazing and to her experience, I think it's just a really cool one to be leaving a relationship, leaving a marriage, in your late 20s to early 30s and going on and experiencing life and moving to a different country and embracing your body and doing heels classes and starting to date and do all those different things in your 30s. I just think it's such a really cool conversation to have and I'm so grateful that you came onto the podcast and had that conversation with me. So thank you so, so, so much for being here.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for podcast and have that conversation with me. So thank you so, so, so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I really love doing this.