Piece Of Mind Podcast
Welcome to Piece of Mind, where we piece together the parts of your mind to help you live a life that’s authentic, unapologetic, and absolutely fulfilling.
I’m your host Ashley Badman, a mindset coach and psychology student, here to guide you through the world of subconscious re-programming, relationships, belief systems, and patterns.
This isn’t your typical mindset podcast. We’re diving deep into the core of who you are, tackling everything from self-sabotage and people-pleasing to attachment styles and beyond. We’ll uncover the deeper shit that makes you who you are, so you can grow, evolve, and build a life you’re obsessed with.
Expect a mix of evidence-based insights, energetic shifts, and a touch of chaos as we explore how to heal, optimize, and re-program your life.
This podcast is for those who refuse to settle, who are committed to living life fully and getting the best for themselves.
Get ready for straight talk, practical strategies, and a few surprises along the way. If you’re ready to stop hiding from yourself and start living unapologetically, you’re in the right place. Tune in and let’s get into it.
Piece Of Mind Podcast
Ep 40: Cinder Abraham On Shadow Work, Healing Deeper, and Coming Back to Who You Really Are
We explore shadow work, subconscious patterns, and how our childhood experiences continue to drive our behaviours even when we think we've healed.
If you enjoyed this episode and want to learn more about shadow work, you can find Cinda on Instagram @cindabrandham.
She offers one-on-one sessions and has created a Shadow Bible tool to help interrupt common shadow patterns in real-time.
Welcome back to the Peace of Mind Podcast. This episode is a good one. If you have ever found yourself thinking, why do I keep doing the same things and how do I stop, you are gonna love this. I am joined by Lucinda or Cinda as we quickly clear that up and we go deep into shadow work, subconscious patterns and why your nervous system might be still running the show even when you think you've healed. We talk about the stuff that's not always spoken about, like why high achieving women can't slow down, how your childhood is still driving your reactions and why regulating your nervous system isn't the same as actually healing your nervous system. Cinder explains things in such an easy and simple way for us to be able to really walk away feeling like, okay, I really learned something there and I really know how to actually use this in my everyday life, and I love chats like that. So it gets honest, it gets rogue and I know that you're going to feel seen. Let's get into the episode.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to the Peace of Mind podcast. As I said in my intro, we have another incredible guest. I know that you guys are going to get so much out of this episode. I'm so excited that you're here. I was going to call you Lucinda, but on your Instagram it's Cinda, so let's clear that up immediately. What do you prefer?
Speaker 2:to be called Cinda, because it feels weird when people call me Lucinda, like I'm in trouble or something. It sounds very like posh.
Speaker 1:You feel like you're like I'm getting in trouble on the podcast. I mean, I kind of feel the same when people call me Ashley. Like my partner called me Ashley the other day and I was like I'm sorry, who is that bitch? Because she doesn't live here. I don't know, like I'm not sure who you're called that. So I think it's a very beautiful name, but we will stick with Cinda. Also, I'm not going to lie. When I first started following you and I saw your name was Cinda, I was like I wonder if her name's Cinderella and she just doesn't want to put it. I can't imagine. I really thought that was your name. Welcome to the podcast. Already, starting off with the rogueness that is the peace of mind podcast, but it's a vibe and I'm very excited to have you here. I really just wanted to kickstart us off with asking you what is a topic that you absolutely love to talk about and why does it actually matter so much to you?
Speaker 2:The topic that I love to talk about would definitely be like shadow work and then like the unconscious and our psyche, like literally what you talk about. Just it's kind of we literally do the same thing, we just talk about it slightly different, but the undercurrent is literally the same right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why I wanted to have you on, I guess, because I align so deeply with everything that you say. And sometimes you say things and it's like it's one of those moments where you do the work, you know all of the things about it, but when you hear someone say it in a different way or explain it differently to yourself, it lands differently. And sometimes I find some of the things that you say I'm like well, I can like resonate with that so much, or I feel like you're speaking to me and I get so much out of it in the way in which you say it, even though it may be something I already know. And that's why I love having these types of conversation on the podcast, because I think we can always learn something new from a new person who sees it through a different lens or explains it in a different way, and I just thought it'd be really cool to have you on the podcast to explain it in your words.
Speaker 1:A lot of people probably listening to this might not know what shadow work is. It's actually not something I talk about a lot. I don't think I even have an episode on this podcast at all about shadow work, actually using that word. So I think, to get us started, it'd be cool to hear if you could explain to us what shadow work actually is. What does it mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So shadow work is looking at our shadow self and what our shadow self is. It's basically the part of us that we have disowned, denied, deemed like less desirable. So you know ash will talk about, often like wounding in a child, wounding, like you know, situations that have happened to us in childhood, in, you know, adolescence, and then they've basically left an imprint, like wounding, trauma, whatever you want to call it. Like you know, same saying.
Speaker 2:And then what happens is, when we experience these situations in our lives, we also then learn that parts of us are wrong, and what we do is we push it down, like you know, event by event, piece by piece, and we, what we do is we cast it into the shadow, and that shadow is like our unconscious self, right, and so people often think, oh well, I've disowned that part of me, like my selfishness, my sexuality. I've disowned that part of me and so it no longer shows up in my life. I'm just not that anymore, but it does, and it just shows up in very unconscious ways, like self-sabotage, like you staying busy, like you doing little things to get at your partner, to get attention, to feel needed, to feel wanted, instead of just like being able to communicate right. And so this is where, if we don't integrate our shadows and those parts of us we've disowned, they will continue to own us and they'll own us in like really unhealthy and, you know, often like really toxic ways.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, a big part of my work and working with my clients is a lot of them come to me with goals and desires and they're doing the work as in like when I say doing work, I mean like taking action, but there's a part of them that like doesn't feel safe going after that thing or stepping into the identity of the human who needs to hold it Right. So, like, whether that's directness, leadership, like you know, even ambition, structure, feminine energy, like you know, and it's different for every person, obviously, because we all have a unique experience and a unique imprint but basically that's what I do. It's like I you know people say you're becoming something, but I don't believe you're actually becoming something. I believe you're unbecoming and what you're doing is you're just getting back to the person who you always were.
Speaker 1:I love that so much. I love that you're unbecoming. I think that that is epic. Sometimes what I like to say to my clients because I agree with that like 100% where people say, like you're becoming somebody new, I like to say it's more like a homecoming, like you're actually just coming home to yourself. You're discovering parts of yourself that you have shamed or made wrong or suppressed or you know, and things that you might not even know, that you've done that with, and it's like coming back to yourself. So I really love that. You said that what got you into shadow work? Like, what was your introduction to shadow work? And I guess, for you, what has made you I don't even know if I want to use the word obsessed, but like we do get obsessed with our work what has made you obsessed with with shadow work? I?
Speaker 2:have a pretty crazy story with like the level of like work. I guess I started at Um and so originally I, you know, I had a lot of trauma that I hadn't faced and I didn't actually realize my level of trauma. I, you know, I had a lot of trauma that I hadn't faced and I didn't actually realize my level of trauma Even when I started doing the work. I didn't actually start because of that, but I did struggle to fall pregnant. I lost my mom and I knew that. Well, did I really know? Probably not. I knew that I at one point I realized I numbed a lot right, didn't realize at the time. And then what happened was I experienced a miscarriage and my like, literally body shut down and I don't have any, like you know, data on this because it's the human body, but I believe and I went and saw a homeopath and she was like I think your body shut down because of the level of trauma you hadn't processed and that was the start of my healing journey.
Speaker 2:But even then I still started quite lightly from the lens of it was very much like spirituality focused. I owned a crystal company back then, so it was very much crystals. It was very much like connecting to source and I did see like a lot of change because I didn't really believe in anything before that. So even just that like believing in a higher power, feeling connected, definitely helped. But then I was doing a lot of like you know that energy work.
Speaker 2:You know what people call healing the nervous system, but it's really like you're regulating the nervous system, not really healing anything. And then I realized like I've been doing this for what was probably like two years now. And, yes, I am taking action, yes, I'm doing inner work, as in energy work, but I'm like I'm still really triggered, I'm still numbing, I'm still very like, actually quite disconnected, and a lot of my like behavior hadn't changed, like I technically was still literally the same person, except I just did a few extra things. So then what I did was I started studying trauma and I've done that Eruka modality, you know, jess Ainsworth.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, she's on my. She came on my podcast. Yeah, I don't know what episode now.
Speaker 2:I studied through her um the certification, but then I also did my own healing through her too. You know, mine was very much like I could intellectualize a lot of things, but it was in my body, I was still storing and I very much had those beliefs of like I remember even being in a breathwork session and obviously I wasn't fully tapped into the consciousness because I was still storing and I very much had those beliefs of like I remember even being in a breathwork session and obviously I wasn't fully tapped into the consciousness because I was controlling it and like my body, I'm like clamming up because my body's wanting to release and my mind's going no, who are you? Without being the strong girl, it's not safe. And it was like we had to stop because it was like my I just couldn't let go. And that was like I don't know, probably four years ago now.
Speaker 2:And then I started learning about shadow work. I've done a few courses, not certified, and then just a lot of reading myself, but also a lot of learning from myself and my own clients. And then I've came up with my own processes. So I use Jess's modality for the healings like the hypnotherapy. It's not even I wouldn't even call it hypnotherapy. It's like hypnotherapy, inner child work, energy work formed into one. And then I do shadow work for like integration behaviors, you know, changing self-sabotage, building an identity that matches like the life that you want, and it's kind of just evolved from there, even like my own frameworks. I'm like refining them as like I learn more, see things in clients and they're like they're evolving too, and so that's kind of been like the journey of it is like, and unraveling.
Speaker 1:I love that so much, and I love that you were able to take it back to what had your own experiences for what kind of pushed you into wanting to work on yourself and heal yourself. Something you said, though, was very interesting, and I'd love you to chat on it a little bit more. You said something it was just in passing. You kind of made a joke of. That's not really healing your nervous system, it's regulating your nervous system, and I would love for you to explain to the listeners of what would be the difference between regulating your nervous system and doing the work to regulate your nervous system versus healing your nervous system and doing the work to heal your nervous system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's such a good question. I was actually talking to a client about this this morning. So I think when people are doing meditation like meditation is very powerful, like even coming into your body, you know, doing breaths like you know body scans and stuff like that. Even like slowing down and like not literally running around like a chicken with your head cut off right, just like going at a slower pace. It's regulating your nervous system from the lens of like you could be triggered and it is going to bring you back down, or maybe you're actually tired, so you're like upregulating but it doesn't heal triggers, as in like it's not changing anything in your subconscious.
Speaker 2:You're not actually healing your trauma, you're just learning essentially to manage. It's kind of like band-aid and both are, both are needed right. Like regulating your nervous system and doing those practices is good for managing stress, but again, it's not going to. It's not helping you integrate shadows, it's not healing your trauma because that's so imprinted in your body and you haven't looked at it right. And I think that's that part With the work that we do, not only the work we do with like love and light work, where people it's like bypassing, they're like, oh, I can just positive, think my way there, I can reframe my way there, but you literally have not addressed the chain of events that have happened before that, and so it's going to continue to affect you.
Speaker 1:I think also with what you're saying, it's almost where people stay, stuck in a loop of feeling like they're never actually creating change. I have worked with lots of people and I'm sure you have as well who they have committed to doing work on themselves. They have embarked on that journey and they feel like they're doing the work, but then they're like so why the fuck do I keep self-sabotaging, so why do I keep creating problems in my relationship? So why do I keep blocking myself every time I feel successful and all those different things. And that can feel very frustrating because you know within yourself, you've tried, you've tried to do the things, but it's almost like this loop of when you're regulating your nervous system and not looking at actually what is the root cause, what is causing you to be dysregulated, what behavior is actually playing out there, and you're not actually paying attention to it. That's where you go on that loop of like okay, but I know how to meditate my way out of this or positive think my way out of this or whatever the regulation tool is for you, but then when it happens again, you're kind of just like going through that loop. So it kind of sounds like what you're explaining is the healing part of the nervous system is doing that deeper work, is looking at the photo aspect, is looking at the things that maybe it doesn't feel as nice as breathing your way through it and like saying something positive. It feels like a lot of self-accountability and responsibility, and looking at things that maybe you haven't wanted to see within yourself, and I think that that is a really good point to have made of the difference.
Speaker 1:I also really do love that you said there, though, like both are necessary. Like you do get to feel good, you do get to regulate your nervous system, you do get to teach your nervous system like, oh shit, like I can be calm, I can, like I can bounce back from being triggered, Like I get my my whole life doesn't explode every single time and it's nice. And for me I'm someone who's experienced a lot of trauma in my life and my poor little nervous system I don't think it knew what regulated felt like or what regulated meant. So it was like it is nice to be able to show your nervous system of like this is what regulation can actually feel like, but without being willing to do that deeper work, you're going to constantly be kind of looping into needing to regulate yourself rather than actually understand what's causing the dysregulation. When you said subconscious mind, can you explain that from your perspective of like what is our subconscious on the most basic level to someone who has never heard that word before?
Speaker 2:So subconscious mind is basically storing beliefs and I mean you've got your nervous system to emotional reactions to everything we've experienced in our life, and I'm talking like good and bad, right, and people don't realize this, but 95% of our every single day. So our life is actually ran subconsciously, meaning we are not aware we're doing it. And sometimes this is things like driving the car because you guys know you would drive subconscious, like You're like, did I just fricking run a red light? But it's because you have done it so often, you do not need to think about it. But also what happens when you're showering.
Speaker 2:Driving, you have like a chain of consciousness. That's because you're not, you don't need to think, so creative ideas can come through. Or maybe you're the opposite, where you're like really overthinking and going into worst case scenario. But so our subconscious stores I call it like like a filing system. It's like a memory filing system, right, every event. And then you have like your emotions attached to it, your beliefs attached to it, and they are going to drive.
Speaker 2:Not only do you remember your past events and you're operating, like you know, unconsciously, but it dictates how you show up and how you handle situations in front of you, your behaviors, the way that you're responding, like, obviously, if you're triggered, and also like the way your patterns and then how you see the world and like interpret things, and this is why there can literally two people can experience the exact same thing, like they're actually at the same event, and their interpretation of it will be so different because of their subconscious and the way that they're like emotionally responding.
Speaker 2:You know. That really is why it is so important to actually address your subconscious and your shadows, because if you don't, you are responding to situations that are right in front of you but you're not responding to it as if it's in that moment. You're responding to it from being a little girl who was seven and no one cares about you and you're invisible, right, but really your partner maybe was just looking at their phone but was still actually listening. Do you know what I mean? But you're so because you're like no one cares about me. I'm so invisible and like obviously you're not saying that, or maybe maybe you even are, but it's all going on on autopilot and this is where it's like the.
Speaker 1:You know the little reactions that are actually like the little situations, but a big reactions like that is a key sign that it's like your shadow and like your subconscious beliefs are at play there yeah, I love that like that idea of people can experience the exact same thing, like two people can literally be part of the exact same, standing side by side, experiencing the same exact situation, and think about it completely different. It's like how people can watch a movie and you can be like, oh, what was, what did you think the movie was about? And they'll be like it was about this and you'll be like I thought it was about this because you were watching it through your own unique lens, through your own subconscious mind, and you're taking away what's being spoken to you, not what's actually being said, based off of the stories that you already tell yourself. And the example with the partner is so good as well, because it's like your partner could be literally sitting on his phone doing something important or whatever it is. But if you have that subconscious belief and those subconscious stories of like no one pays attention to me, no one cares enough about me, you're seeing that when really your partner is just like something important happened on my phone, so you're reacting based off your own story.
Speaker 1:I actually have a really cool example of that of a client of mine. She had this fear of people seeing her as lazy, so as a child she was called lazy. She was a little bit overweight as a child and that was very much pointed out to her and she needed to do more and exercise more. And she said one day she was just sitting on the lounge because she needed a bit of a break and been hectic times, whatever. And she had a thought in her mind of like shit, am I being lazy by having a rest? Should I be doing like? The same stories because of what is in her mind? And her partner came downstairs and just said hey, can you help me with something with the kids, because then we can like sit down and hang out together. He literally said that and that's what he meant In her mind. He might as well have come down those stairs and said you're so fucking lazy for laying there, because that's what she heard. So they ended up having an argument because she was reacting to what she thought he was saying, not what he was actually saying.
Speaker 1:Which is just interesting that that's how we can react, based off of what we perceive as being said or what we perceive as happening, not what actually happening. So I literally am obsessed with that whole thing. I'm like, yes, because it has changed my life as well, like my relationship with my current partner. Knowing this shit about myself has changed how I communicate with him, how I react in different situations and circumstances. It's changed everything. I would love to know for you, then. Obviously you've done shadow work for yourself, because you know so much about it as well with your clients. How has it actually changed your life?
Speaker 2:So the biggest thing for me, well, I mean, has it actually changed your life? So the biggest thing for me well, I mean there's two major big areas is the invisibility wound that like was. I mean that still shows up for me. I'm not even going to lie Like. It's actually so deep that even with my online presence I'm like I'm invisible. And Taylor's like I don't think we're looking at the same thing, like, and I'm still like no, no one cares. And I have to really ground myself because I'm like the evidence is actually in front of you that people do care, like, and like almost like it's that element of healing where you're at the other stage and you just have to allow, but we're like gripping so tight because, like, no, I need to have control.
Speaker 2:So definitely that and that would show up for me in relationship, it would show up for me online and it is massive still in friendships where, like I I say I have high standards for friendships, but I mean the friendship, the standards, like almost like no one will get through the craft and I am so aware of it and I even said to um, my friend the other day I'm like, but I don't want to let it go yet, um, and I think, and it's self-protection though definitely, and I can, and it's like, even though I have that awareness right and I'm so aware of what I'm doing. But I think it's like you know with I haven't even told you this it stems from my mom because she had early onset dementia and she forgot who I was. And so I very much have this like I'm invisible, like she literally forgot me and obviously it wasn't her, like she had no control. But that's how I felt. And then I also have it from my dad, but from the lens of like. He only sees me when I'm really good at things and when I'm winning, and then I have the high achiever in me. So that was the second element of the high achiever, but also like busy as a badge of honor and that also protect. Then I numbed a lot too. So I you know my capacity for what I could hold from the lens of like doing was pretty insane.
Speaker 2:Like I was a manager in the corporate world by 20. I ran teams that were way older than me. I literally would work 10 hour days, and that was not because I had to, it was just make literally to feel worthy of managing older people. I trained twice a day and like, honestly, if you gave me that level of doing right now I would be asleep on my table Like my literal life now and compared to that is like opposite so much overworking, so much overtraining. And then I also socialized a lot at night back then because, honestly, I would do anything and everything, so I didn't have to sit with myself. Like you know, making up things to do. It was insane, and so that has been a massive unbecoming of the doing and feeling really safe to have peace, to have space. And now I have quite a lot of white space in my calendar, like you know. I can walk down the beach and I cannot have headphones in very present, where before I could not be because I had to do.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for sharing that part of your story as well, and I'm so sorry to hear about your mom. I honestly actually can't even imagine what that would have felt like for you and I feel like it makes when you said that I was like it makes total sense of why you carry what you carry down, why you feel the way that you do, and then with your dad and feeling like you have to achieve and whilst I can't relate to that exact story, I can definitely relate to how you feel and mine is not the same, but one that has really stuck for me and when you said, this has been one that I have to be aware of but it's still present. Mine is just like I'm not likable, Like I'm just not a likable person or I'm not lovable, and I know where mine stems from. With my mom, my mom had me 10 to 12 years after she had my brother and sister. Her whole relationship, marriage was falling apart. There was a lot of domestic violence, alcohol, addiction, all the different things, and I was kind of born as almost like an inconvenience, Like I definitely wasn't planned. But then a lot was transitioning in her life of she'd been married since she was 18, her relationship was ending. She was very distracted and she did not have very good coping skills, mechanisms, emotional regulation. So I was kind of born into this like already not fully being wanted and always feeling a little bit like you're an inconvenience to have around. And my brother and sister left and all these different things, and then my dad left when I was 10. So so I've just always convinced myself and it's not this is a thing that's very important to mention here in Spolify for you as well.
Speaker 1:It's not like a conscious I've said to myself I'm not lovable because of X, Y, Z or I'm. It's something that you, it's in your subconscious. It becomes a way in which you lead yourself. It becomes a way in which you lead relationships and what you expect of the world and what you expect of yourself. And I've kind of always expected that friendships that eventually they're not going to like me or if they realize I'm too much or I'm this or I'm that they're not going to like me and relationships I'll be the one to be like I'm pushing you away before you can push me away again. Not conscious. You don't actually say I can't wait to push my partner away. Who's really loving you, you, just you do it. You act based on that subconscious.
Speaker 1:And then you can imagine throwing online business into the mix, where you've got to put yourself out there and you've got to put yourself online and you're putting yourself forward for, like, almost a judgment of people outside of yourself and you have this wound and this belief of I'm not likable and lovable.
Speaker 1:It's a lot and it has been like it's been a lot for me to work on, but again it's something where I'm like I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to say to you sitting here today, that's gone and that's not something that ever plays out for me anymore, but it's something that I'm very, very aware of and something where and I say this with love to myself I'm not being judgmental to myself, but I can see where that allows me to have cooked behavior that I play out, because I'm trying to confirm that narrative.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to confirm that I'm not likable or lovable. So I thought that was a really interesting share and a really nice share, because I think sometimes when you talk about this work and you talk about shadow work or subconscious mind, it can feel a little bit confusing. But when you can actually share real life examples or real life experiences that are just very human. It makes it easy for people to be like, oh shit, like I can kind of see where that may play out for me or where that's relevant to me. So thank you so much for sharing that.
Speaker 2:on that topic too is like you know there's, I believe there's also like layers of healing and like you guys know I mean you might not know why do I say that um, new, new level, new devil. And so it's like you probably will heal that in one area of your life and you're like I'm so good with that in one area of your life and you're like I'm so good at that and probably in your relationship because they're the closest with you. But then maybe it's like you get into a new environment, you move estates and you have to get new friends and you see it come up again, and so most people go, fuck, I'm back at square one again. But you're actually not. You're at a new level and the wound is resurfacing and your work is not under. It're actually not it's. You're at a new level and it's. The wound is resurfacing and your work is not under, it's actually not undone. In fact, you're actually taking it deeper and it's actually a sign of growth.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I'm just, like you know, with Ash and same with me in our relationship. I'm not going to say I'm 100% good, but that's probably the part I'm best at. But then it comes out in your business or then you get more success. You get more visibility, more eyes on you. You're talking about different topics that are you know, quote unquote controversial, and it's coming back up again, not because your work was not working, but because it's just a new layer and a deeper level and you just got to work on it again and normalize that new threshold Right.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you said that and you brought that up, because a lot of the time when I do work with people, that happens a lot where they're like, oh fuck, I'm doing that thing again. It didn't work, I'm not here, I'm not there and it's like no, no, you actually did do the work and you have grown and the reason that you're achieving new things or new experiences and it's showing up in the same similar thing, maybe in different ways or maybe in the same way, and it's those moments it's like that is where you have to practice the most compassion for yourself. And I agree it's like this whole that I'm not lovable thing for myself or likable. I've worked on that so much specifically, like you said as well, in my relationship. I feel so much better with it, so much better with it, so much better with my communication, so much better with not doing things like starting fights for no reason or pushing him away, all those different things that I used to do.
Speaker 1:But what's funny and funny about the timing of this conversation is I've just had like a fair few videos on TikTok and on Instagram go viral and I've had like so many people in my DMs and so many people in comments and it's interesting to see that then, like kind of like, coming up again, I'm getting a lot more hate comments and a lot more people being nasty to me and like how my nervous system is being like, let's get out. Like freeze I'm going I can feel myself going to a freeze response where I'm like I don't want to post on social media anymore. I haven't posted since my the viral video on Instagram, cause it's like. It's like an actual freeze response where it's like my I can't think of things. I can't even think of things to say, I can't even and that's a response because I still have, you know, still have those things playing out, but it is at a different level.
Speaker 1:There's much more visibility and much more being seen, and the thing that I'm talking about is a much scarier, bigger topic for me, but it doesn't mean that I hadn't done the work on that thing. So that was such a that is such an important point and I'm so glad that you said that For people that are listening. What are some ways that? I know this is going to be a very vague question and I know that with shadow work it is very or with any work to do with this stuff. It's very individual to the person and getting to know the person. However, to the best that you can, what are ways in which that people listening would be able to see if they have like shadows playing out in their life?
Speaker 2:so the first question I'll get you to ask is we might go at it from like a girl's desires level, because most people do have that, even if it feels like a dream. So it's like, and you think it's not impossible I mean not possible, and I mean that's a shadow in itself right there. So there's your first one is okay, ask yourself what do you want? Like is it? Maybe it's like emotional, so it's like I just want inner peace. You're like I want freedom.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's like more materialistic, tangible, like I don't know, I want to be the manager at my, at my job. Maybe you want to start a business, right? Maybe you want 50k TikTok followers, so that's your desire. And now ask yourself, who do I need to become to get it? So it's like the person who wants 50k TikTok followers. Basically, there's a level of like leadership there, but there's also going to be a level of exactly what like Ash was talking about before, where it's like you just have to be okay with hate, like you actually will not be able to grow without that. Um and and if you are growing like that, I would say it's because you're actually being inauthentic, like you're actually trying to be so likable and relatable that you're actually not being you.
Speaker 1:so then I say, can I say something there?
Speaker 1:Because I actually think that's a brilliant point. And this is the like where some of the behavior for I'm just going to keep using myself as an example because I think it's easy, and the same example of not feeling likable what I did to kind of ensure that I never felt that like wound be hit on was like I people pleased I became whatever I wanted me to be. So on social media, it was like I don't want to post something that could be too controversial, or I don't want to say something that could possibly offend someone, or I'm going to list like 75,000 nuances to cover all my bases so that I don't piss anyone off, or you know, I'm not going to have boundaries, I'm going to say yes to everybody. I'm going to let people walk all over me. It was like because if I do all of that, then I'll never have to feel like I'm not likable, because of course I'm likable. I'm not pissing anybody off. So inauthentic, so suffocating and exhausting, and it's like you're, you're playing a role.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that that's a really great point too, and that's the overcompensation of the shadow right to mask the part, so you don't see it. And like I'm going to bring this back to something that's like a lot of people identify it's the high achiever who doesn't realize they're actually not good enough because you keep achieving, you keep succeeding, you keep getting validation, and so you're like I don't feel, like I'm not good enough, but that's why you do all those things. And then your reality you're like you get it all and you're like this doesn't feel good, but why? Why do I look successful on paper?
Speaker 1:and it's like because you built a life literally from a wound of not feeling good oh, and it's like the people that then you get it and you're like it's kind of anti-climatic like you're like when I have this thing, I'm gonna feel a mate, like when I graduate from uni, when I get this pay rise, when I get this level of followers, whatever it is, and then it happens and it is the most anti-climatic experience.
Speaker 1:And then you kind of know like okay, like I was building this off of a wound, not off of actually like the thing itself was going to actually create the feeling that I wanted to create. So I think that's really cool. I'm so sorry to interrupt you before. I was just like I literally I knew this was gonna happen, because I'm like I'm just so, I just I'm so obsessed with this conversation because it truly is and not not to be like I hate when people are like it's life changing, but it's fucking life changing, it truly is life changing. What you were saying before was basically using the example of you have a gold desire if you want 50,000 followers on TikTok, and then I kind of interrupted you. So please continue.
Speaker 2:And so the question next would be so you're like looking at the identity and you're kind of looking at what happens, so it's like that's kind of like you're stepping into a higher realm. You actually are expanding beyond you because you are looking at a reality that you don't have yet, right, so that's expanding you. But then ask yourself the question like, okay, well, what is the worst that could happen when I get in that situation? And that's the polarity in it. It's like we have this want, and you're like, why wouldn't I want it, though? And it's like, well, do you love to cop hate from 50 people every single day on TikTok because they disagree with your opinion? Like, would you be okay with that?
Speaker 2:And most people wouldn't, right, but that's where you need to build that identity and do the shadow work, all the work that and everything we've spoken about in here, like healing your wounds, expanding your capacity, like normalizing, almost like the hate being okay with it, and like letting yourself still do the thing as in, like posting, like putting out the content you know, still saying being authentic and saying your opinions and not shrinking, not people pleasing, like very much following your mission and your vision, because, at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:It's like people will love you or hate you, but that actually is what grows a big account, and that is what growth like that's what authenticity is in itself Like because when you're authentic, you trigger other people's shadows. That's the mirror and you guys might have heard about this before is like your growth will be a mirror to other people's insecurities and vice versa, like they are going to mirror other people who might be in a higher position. They will mirror things back to you like parts of yourself you haven't owned, things that you want in your life, that you don't feel safe to claim, things that you're telling yourself you actually can't have. I mean, so there's some more shadow work you guys can do too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's so many things and also it's like that, like sometimes I think as well it can be like okay, well, how did you discover that your thing was that you don't think people see you? And how did I discover that I feel not likable and not lovable? And for me personally, it was allowing myself to be curious about why I felt certain ways when things were happening, like, why was I scared to actually say my true opinion online? Why was I so scared of hate? Why did I say yes when I wanted to say no and when I got really honest with myself which is the hard thing you could be just like oh, I just am really nice person, or I just don't want to offend people because that's not who I am. But really, when I really really ask myself why, it's because, well, I don't feel that I'm a lie, I don't feel that I'm likable. I feel like if I do that, people won't like me, and you're like oh, that's actually, that's actually what going. It's not because you're just this incredibly nice person who's like just just wants to do everything for everybody else. It's actually you're protecting yourself from something that you feel about yourself and I think that that that's it's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of hard to be that honest with yourself. I think I was like, when I said it out loud, I was like, ew, what do you mean? What do I like? Do I actually feel that? Something else I thought would be interesting to chat about, because I think I I think it's quite common with women especially women who are ambitious and want to be successful A lot of shadow work. Things that can come up are around money and wealth and around sexuality and sensuality and being like really confident in your body. Have you noticed that with women at all, the slowing down part a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:But when you think of like slowing down, that's kind of like getting into your body, which is the sensuality and the sexuality anyway. Right, it's like and I mean we're going to go a bit off topic here but, like you know, there's a lot of people who are like I don't have orgasms. But I would say it's because you're too in your head, not in your body.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, and you're like so thinking, and you're so in your mind that you cannot be present in the moment, and that probably is because you have shadows around like what it means to surrender to someone, what it means to surrender in general, what it means to just be versus do so.
Speaker 2:It's like you actually have a shadow around like feminine energy, surrender like glow, go with the flow, like the slowness, and then, as a result, you like overcompensate by doing probably, you know, running around the house like a head and chicken, like even like mothers, and the to-do list like that becomes your high, your high achieving, but it's in a to-do list, like you might actually be on maternity leave or a stay-at-home mom and you're high achieving, but through a to-do list that you aren't present. And then your like identity is tied up in that. That it does affect things like your sex, like surrendering to your partner, letting your partner even lead, like him making decisions, because you're like so on his back and like criticizing every little move he makes, but you're like why can't he just lead? But it's like you actually don't want him. From an unconscious lens Obviously you're not conscious of it, that was literally me as well I's like you actually don't want him from an unconscious lens? Obviously you're not conscious of it.
Speaker 1:That was literally me as well. I'm like, yeah, no, that was me. I was definitely like I could not sit down and this is why I've started trying to like read and read things that are not personal development, not business, just purely for like joy, because I could not just sit down and just actually allow myself to chill out, like I just couldn't. I was like, but what do I need to do and what the kids need of me and what does my business need of me and what do my clients need of me? I couldn't even just go for like a walk and just enjoy going for a walk by myself, because I'd be thinking about what I should be doing or what I need to be doing or what I should be doing. That's more beneficial for my time. That was definitely me, and I find that one very, very interesting. Do you find that you work with a lot of women that struggle with surrender and slowing down?
Speaker 2:Yes, In fact, because I work with a lot of high achievers. I think I also work with a lot of like actually, all my private clients are entrepreneurs at the moment. But I think a big reason they do come to me is because I and I don't know if they even know this like I very much was the, as I spoke about before, like the productive one. You know, success meant you had to physically be moving, but now I've created a life that's quite the opposite. Like, I have a lot of space, I have a lot of presence for my kids, I only work three days per week and I also have systems in my business where I can still bring in money, and I think a lot of them want that. So they want someone to lead them who's done that before, but not just from the angle of I've done it before. Like you know, I can mentor you because I've done it Like, but also what comes out beneath that, like kind of what we just talked about, um, and I mean there's even the laziness.
Speaker 2:You spoke about the lazy shadow before. It's a perfect one that a lot of people struggle with and it's where, like you know, when we think of shadow work. Shadow work actually isn't about getting rid of parts, it's about integration. So it's not about like dissolving it, like some people will say. It's about integrating it and so lazy, perfect one. Like just don't even call it lazy to begin with and like rest, lazy and rest is the same thing. Like I say to my partner so many times they'll be like hey, have you left? You didn't put your partner's plate away and I'm like, because I literally say I'm feeling lazy, I'll do it later, like that's not a thing for me. It's like I didn't want to put it in, so I'll like it. Even to say that word would like I'm lazy, but it's like for me lazy is just rest and it's actually the most productive thing that you can do.
Speaker 2:No, I really love that perspective and just owning the word owning it, owning it being able to say it, acceptance, shadow work at the core of it is like acceptance. And then I was delivering like a self-love. She's called it a self-love workshop. I don't really use the word self-love because I believe when you love yourself, you just accept yourself. Like it's actually that. Like do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I accept that part of me that you know might be a bit chaotic. I accept that part of me that is lazy. I accept that part of me that does like the challenge. Like that's one of my biggest shadows is I love a challenge and it's about integrating it in a healthy way, right? So, like, if you love a challenge, well, make sure you're challenged in your work. Like, make sure you are putting yourself in spaces where you can grow so it doesn't come out in the most randomest ways, like I don't know. You need to do an assignment the night of, or you needed to launch that offer literally tomorrow, because you told your audience and now you're staying up not at night to do it, because that's giving you challenge, but it's almost like an unproductive challenge, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, if you don't own it and focus on how you can bring that into your life in healthy ways, it will come into life anyway, but in ways that feel quite destructive and limiting Me. I was the chaos one where I was like very, very chaotic, but it's almost like I was so ashamed that I was chaotic that I would then be like, no, I'm not chaotic. And then it would come out in those ways of doing things last minute, of leaving things to last minute. Mine would come out in like just being ridiculous with my money as well, like spending when I shouldn't be spending and not saving and not thinking of my future, like just creating unhealthy chaos.
Speaker 1:But when I accepted of like actually I'm quite a chaotic person, I change my mind a lot, I have big ideas, I change direction and when I can channel that into and accept that that is who I am and it's actually a huge strength of mine in business, in social media and being able to think on my feet and being able to work with different people and different clients and keep my mind moving, it's like actually being chaotic isn't the worst thing. So I think as well being able to own it in healthy ways. So it doesn't own you in unhealthy, unhealthy ways. I think it's really important when it comes to this work and even us just describing. For a brief moment there I was like, you know, I have this thing that I think has come from my mom and this experience, and you said the same thing with your mom and your dad. How much of your shadows do you think do come from childhood? I would say all of them.
Speaker 2:I'd say it starts in childhood and it just gets imprinted stronger in adolescence.
Speaker 2:We have this thing called confirmation bias, which means we are going to seek out evidence, aka situations in our life to confirm our own beliefs as truth. This is why, if you feel invisible, you will keep attracting relationships that are mirroring that right. You'll keep attracting like if you're emotionally unavailable. You're probably going to keep attracting partners that are emotionally unavailable or dating not even partners like the people you're dating and your friends are probably all emotionally unavailable. Or you might have that one person who's kind of going to say, like come in and they're mirroring back to what you haven't owned, and then you just make them wrong. You're like they are so emotional, like they're giving me the ick and it's like are they really giving you the ick or are they just mirroring back something to you? And so, yes, it it starts in, uh, childhood and it'll just get stronger and stronger and stronger, because what's happening essentially is you're stacking more evidence in your subconscious, like kind of like adding to the file. Adding to the file, adding to the file like a database.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how you're like ew, they're giving me the ick and you put like on a voice we have so much, but it is so true and this is the thing.
Speaker 1:So I think, like the overarching thing as well is you do you do need to have a lot of curiosity and be able to drop your ego, like to be able to actually discover these things about yourself. You have to be able to drop your ego for long enough to be like wait, even just that example, is that person giving me the ick or is there shit that I haven't looked at within myself and am I willing to look at it? So, for people who are kind of new to shadow work and listening to this and we're kind of giving those examples of like how you can actually be like oh wait, is that actually true, factual, that that person makes me feel like that, or is there something that I need to work on in myself? What would be a piece of advice you would give people to start to actually get curious about, maybe their own behavior, so that they can understand what might be going on in their subconscious mind?
Speaker 2:yeah. So we'll go to the example I spoke earlier, where it's like assessing that situation in front of you for what it is, and I'm going to say, especially when you start doing this, often you're not going to be doing it in the moment like because you are clouded, you are reactive, you are defensive, you are. It is like you are defensive, you are. It is like something actually is taking over you because technically it kind of is right. It's like the shadow, the ego. They're all taking over you, trying to protect you because of your stored subconscious. So you might be doing this process afterwards, but it's like just be okay with that, like that is what it is. While you're technically learning a new skill, it's like when you start riding a bike, you're not acing it the first time and it's like I think people don't have a lot of definitely not enough compassion for themselves, but they don't have enough patience in the fact that they are actually changing years, like literally lifetimes, or responding a different way. So the first person said the first step would be to catch the pattern and remember. It's okay to reflect afterwards, and then I would actually just ask myself okay, was my reaction? Was I responding to what they actually did or was I responding to from wounding right? And so let's just use an example of so.
Speaker 2:Something I used to do was whenever my partner said something and it could be like he said he was going to pack the dishwasher and then he didn't pack it I would be like so escalated that I would, literally, unconsciously, I'm like I don't trust him and it's because I think everyone like betrays me and I'm invisible. And so it's literally like I literally like I used to micromanage people's words and if they said one thing and didn't follow through, like it could be like him going to the gym, like it has actually nothing to do with me, like do you know what I mean? Uh-uh, don't trust him, don't trust him. What's he going to do? See, that's clearly. Am I responding to that situation? No, I'm like off, I'm way down a chain of like do you know what I mean? So it's like that and I asked myself is what I'm responding to warranted?
Speaker 2:However, let's just say it's the similar situation and he I don't know, he was like I'm going to call you at one and then like, oh no, I'm going to come home at one, and then like, oh no, I'm gonna come home at one and then comes home like a day later, like obviously that would be like so not okay, right? So it's like questioning, like we obviously don't want to, and I think this is what people get wrong with too like is it my work or is it their work? It's not about like letting everyone get away with everything, because sometimes it's like it's actually not okay, but by curious you get to figure that out. Like am I responding to the past? Am I responding to this situation right in front of me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's an absolutely incredible point as well, because sometimes I think when people start doing this work, they can sometimes go too far in the way in which they place everything on themselves. It's like curiosity isn't about overanalyzing every single thing that you do and every single thing. Curiosity is a tool to help you just be a little bit more self-aware and be able to actually ask yourself the question in the moment, but it's not letting people treat you like shit. I love it. Sometimes I talk about it as well because I do think it's so funny. Sometimes people will be like someone cut me off in traffic and then they gave me the finger and I, like I was really offended. I'm trying to figure out why I was triggered and I'm like because they were a dick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes people are just dicks, right, and you know. Another example of this is like. You know, I ended a friendship last year and she said to me she was like why you? She said something to me and she was like why are you so triggered by this? And I was like I'm not triggered by what you said, I'm triggered by who said it, because if a stranger said it to me, I wouldn't give 10 bucks. It's the fact that you're supposed to be a friend and you said that to me. So it's like that isn't like. That was just not okay. Right for her to talk to me like that. So that's a prime example of like is it actually okay? Is it challenging your standards, or is it actually you reacting from your wounding and you know your past trauma?
Speaker 1:I'd be curious to know from you a lot of people that do this work that I work with not all of them, but a lot are like in relationships and they're trying to do this work on themselves and understand where they're triggered versus where their partner actually needs to maybe work on himself and all those different things. Something that I do see that I personally am like I don't think that's the right thing to do is to bring kind of everything that you're learning and kind of weaponize that against your partner and like, well, you triggered me, like in using words that you've learned and things like that. I think that maybe that's not like the most beneficial way. I once had a client to be like.
Speaker 1:Ash said that that would be like and I was like no, no, let's not use it against your partner. Like, let's actually like I do see how that can. It can easily happen. When you start to learn these things and you want your partners to be on board, what would you say to the woman who's trying to work on themselves, understand themselves maybe their partner is part of the reason that they're triggered, or all those different things. How would you, I guess, integrate that into a relationship or allow yourself to work on it, like what advice would you give there?
Speaker 2:so this, this is something that I do experience a lot too and, like I've been in my relationship for 10 years. So even when I met my partner, both of us were emotionally unavailable. So we've been through a journey where we're now quite emotionally available and communicate really well. But even I would say my partner, like only the past year and a half, has become quite emotionally available from the point of like he'll come home and ask him how he is and if his day was shit or there was something that fucked up where he would actually talk about his stress, where before he was like I'm good, like you know, I've got it together. And that wasn't an unconscious I mean, that was an unconscious thing, right, he like genuinely didn't realize he was stressed because he was like you know, I've got just got it all together.
Speaker 2:So I think there is that element of what I say to my clients is and this is very much from the angle of you know, cause a lot of people kind of get on an ego trip where they're like well, I'm doing the work and he's not, and I'm going to outgrow him, but I'm like you shouldn't have to say anything like, and we definitely don't want to force people to go do work when they're not ready. Right Is be his permission slip like show him, and it always happens when they see you changing which is not going to be in the first two weeks of your container. And let's just say you were a people pleaser, right, and now you are holding boundaries, now you're communicating your needs to him, when previously you were quiet, you were explosive because you shut down in one area but then it comes out in another, right, but then there's no articulation around what you're actually mad about. He will see, and you're more grounded and you're communicating. He will see, see it and he, most of the time, will go do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, and that's kind of my experience in my relationship with my partner. Like he got the difference in us and how we communicate with each other is so wild, since us, you know, wanting to actually work on ourselves and all the different things. But I had initially started that journey of wanting to work on myself and understand myself and he like it wasn't even on his radar. You know what I mean. For most men, for most people, it's not really like a thing. We kind of like fall into it.
Speaker 1:I think it was someone I followed, I don't even know, but it kind of just fell into it and I think what helped me in him wanting to also then be a bit more open-minded and curious and work on himself wasn't me kind of being like, well, that's a trigger and this is that or any of those different things.
Speaker 1:It was more just vulnerably sharing with him and being like I've actually learned this about myself and being honest to him about, maybe, where I need to take accountability and responsibility for how I've treated him or how I've reacted to things, or even not even to do with us, just letting him in on like wow, I didn't even realize this, but this happened in my childhood and it's caused me to believe this about myself. And just having him in on those conversations from the perspective of, I've learned this it opened conversations where he was like, well, when I was growing up, my dad X, y, z and things that I didn't know and I was like blown away by him sharing with me and it kind of that's how it kind of happened, very naturally through sharing and that's the.
Speaker 2:that's it you becoming a permission slip also because you're showing vulnerability. It's like indirectly saying it's safe for me to be vulnerable. Yeah, right, and I think, in particular, if you have two people who are quite emotionally unavailable, it is very hard for person a to go first, and so often they don't and then they're like they're just not vulnerable, but it's like you have to push yourself and that's the integration of the shadow in real time. That's not you doing inner work separate to your actual life. That's you going. Okay, I've realized I'm actually like disowned my vulnerability and I need to be more vulnerable in my relationship if I want my partner to be more vulnerable and for us to communicate deeper.
Speaker 2:And that's what I would say too is like, always, if you're bringing up something is talking about it from your own feelings, because a lot of people are not speaking from feeling. They're speaking from attack, like blame, like it's your fault, like when you did this, it's X, y, z and it's very much like no part in, like you're not taking any responsibility at all. So it's like you actually saying you know, this made me feel like X, and it's sometimes even explaining because, like what you said, like in childhood this used to happen with my dad, or this used to happen here and you didn't. And, like the truth of it, right, I didn't even know that was happening until this moment and awareness that I've just had, literally yesterday.
Speaker 1:And it. But it makes sense. Even when you say it like that, like if you come at anybody if I had come at you or anybody and been like you said this and it made me feel that way your instant reaction not even meaning to like, I think it's a very natural reaction when someone comes, like at a conversation like that, you'll defend. You feel like you have to defend yourself. Even if you weren't going to defend yourself, you're like well, and then the conversation is like well, this isn't productive. Now, now I'm defending myself, you're trying to prove your point and we're not getting anywhere. So I think that that's a really key point as well, like how you approach the conversation. I think is really important.
Speaker 1:My last little question for you is I know you work with a lot of like women in particular and high achieving women. I would love to just finish up on. If there is high achieving women listening to this and they're feeling all of the things that you felt. Maybe they struggle, or you have said maybe they struggle to rest or whatever it is, what would you say to them in regards to starting their own journey of doing shadow work and how it would actually benefit their life?
Speaker 2:I would say, are we talking steps or just like some level of like guidance? I mean wisdom, wisdom, let's go. Wisdom, well, well, I would say it'll catch up to you at some point. So it's like, if you don't own the shadow, like you don't outrun it, it's like even like grief, right? People say time heals and I'm like I don't even believe that's true. Like you heal, you deal with the grief and then you can like actually hold it. It doesn't again, grief doesn't really go, but you, just you can like actually hold it. It doesn't again grief doesn't really go, but you, just you get learned how to hold it Right, and it's like the shadow, it's like it will catch up to you. And do you want to build a life from ego and how others perceive you, or do you want to build a life from meaning and fulfillment and joy and fun and success and peace and the fact that you can have it all right, because right now you're going, I can only have one. But what if you get to have it all?
Speaker 1:I'm glad I said wisdom, cause that was really good. I'm like no slay, I actually really love that and I think that that was a really good. Final point Can you let everyone know where they would find you and if they were to be like, okay, cool, you know what, I'm ready for this. I'm ready for this.
Speaker 2:I'm ready to do a little bit of shadow work and figure it out. Where can they find you and what would you recommend? They start with um. You can find me just on instagram at uh, cinda c-i-n-d-a. And then brand ham like brand, and then ham like physical deli.
Speaker 1:It's really confusing, I'll pop the link for her instagram powerful.
Speaker 2:So there's two things.
Speaker 2:If you just want to dive in and you feel like you need healing, you need, like, shadow work, you need identity expansion, then one-to-one and you want to work on like a variety of things.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, if you feel like you're someone who has quite a high level of self-awareness, as in like, you know your patterns, you know exactly what you're doing, potentially, you even know the route right and you're more so looking for clearing the sabotage and interrupting them patterns, I have this tool which is called. It's called like a real-time shadow integration tool and it goes through 32 of the most common shadow cycles I've worked with my clients on and it teaches you how to interrupt it in real time. So that also would be a really good start. Otherwise, I do one often blocking sessions, which is kind of more so for the healing, and it could be focusing on like one key thing like visibility, feeling enough, like so, your self-worth, you know, feeling safe and secure in who you are speaking up, owning your authenticity, your expression, and, yeah, those are the three kinds of areas that I focus on. Perfect.
Speaker 1:And just to do a little bit of a shout out for you the shadow Bible, I think, is like $27, isn't it? Yeah, I mean God, it's like a no brainer, it's $27.
Speaker 2:I was like why isn't she saying I'm going to say it for her? I think, almost like 200 people through now I mean not through because it's a tool, so you're not doing any masterclass, but like you've put so, almost 200 people have this guide. So I call it your digital pocket bestie when your shadows try and come out Brilliant.
Speaker 1:I love this. I love this so much and thank you so much for spending an hour with us. I really, really appreciate it. I feel like people who listen to this will get absolutely so much out of it. I highly encourage everyone to go follow you.
Speaker 2:I think they'll get so much out of following you, and I just appreciate you joining me on the potty today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was an amazing chat. I loved it.