Spark Something New
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Spark Something New
Episode 91: Visibility Isn't a Confidence Issue | The Surprising Reason We Shrink Ourselves with Kapu Patel
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Episode Snapshot:
What if your hesitation to speak up, share your ideas, or take up space isn't actually a confidence problem?
In this episode, Dr. Katie sits down with mindset coach and former pharmaceutical executive Kapu Patel to explore why visibility is really a nervous system skill. Together, they unpack the subtle ways we "shrink" ourselves—from downplaying our accomplishments to putting everyone else's needs ahead of our own—and why reclaiming our voice begins by creating safety within ourselves. This conversation is a gentle invitation to stop waiting for permission and start trusting that you already belong.
Summary:
Most of us have been told that confidence is the key to becoming more visible. Speak up. Lean in. Be bold.
But what if confidence isn't the problem?
Drawing from her journey as a scientist, pharmaceutical executive, photographer, and mindset coach, Kapu Patel offers a refreshing perspective: visibility is less about confidence and more about safety. When our nervous system has learned that standing out could lead to rejection, criticism, or shame, shrinking becomes a form of self-protection rather than a lack of capability.
Katie and Kapu explore the subtle patterns of shrinking that many people (especially women) experience every day. Sometimes it looks obvious, like holding back an idea in a meeting or minimizing an accomplishment. Other times it shows up in quieter ways: declining opportunities, avoiding photographs, neglecting self-care, staying silent in group decisions, or believing our contributions aren't significant enough to matter.
Together they discuss how childhood experiences, cultural conditioning, and the stories we've attached to past experiences shape the beliefs we carry into adulthood. Those beliefs often operate beneath our awareness, quietly influencing how we show up in our work, relationships, and leadership.
The conversation also challenges the popular advice to "fake it till you make it," proposing instead a more authentic approach: play it until you become it. Rather than pretending to be someone we're not, growth comes from practicing the fullest expression of who we already are while building the nervous system capacity to feel safe doing so.
Throughout the episode, Kapu shares practical tools for recognizing shrinking patterns, regulating the nervous system, questioning limiting stories using Byron Katie's four questions, and paying attention to the wisdom our bodies offer when something feels misaligned.
Ultimately, this conversation reminds us that taking up space isn't about becoming louder or demanding more attention. It's about giving ourselves permission to stop editing who we are and trusting that we already belong.
Key Learnings:
1. Visibility is a safety issue before it's a confidence issue.
When our nervous system associates being seen with judgment, rejection, or shame, shrinking becomes a protective response—not a character flaw.
2. Shrinking shows up in more places than we realize.
It's not only speaking less in meetings. It can look like downplaying accomplishments, avoiding recognition, neglecting self-care, deferring to others, or believing your needs matter less than everyone else's.
3. Our conditioning shapes our stories.
The words we've repeatedly heard, the environments we've grown up in, and the meaning we've assigned to those experiences become subconscious beliefs that influence how we show up today.
4. Authentic visibility isn't about "faking it."
Rather than pretending to be confident, we can practice becoming more fully ourselves by expanding our capacity to feel safe while taking courageous action.
5. The stories we beieve deserve to be questioned.
Simple questions like Is it true? Is it absolutely true? Who would I be if it weren't true? can create powerful shifts in how we relate to ourselves and our potential.
Resources:
- Website: https://www.youshinemindsetcoaching.com/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kapu-kalpana-patel/
Guest Info:
Kapu Patel is a mindset coach who helps women overcome the invisible patterns that keep them playing small so they can become more visible, confident, and authentic in their work and lives.
Before launching her coaching practice, Kapu built a successful career as a pharmaceutical researcher and executive after earning her PhD in the sciences. She later transitioned into professional photography, where she discovered that many accomplished women struggled not with how they looked, but with allowing themselves to be seen.
Today, she combines neuroscience, mindset coaching, and her own lived experiences to help women move from permission-seeking to space-claiming. Her work focuses on building the internal safety that allows authentic confidence and visibility to emerge.
Connect with Katie on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. You can also get free resources to help you on your purpose journey at www.katiesandoe.com.
Hi y'all, I'm Katie Zando, and this is the Spark Something New Podcast. A place where we explore topics and conversations that can help you find different ways to live, to work, and to lead. I am so glad that you're here. So let's spark something new together. Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the Spark Something New podcast. Question to start this episode. Have you ever caught yourself making yourself just a little bit smaller? Maybe you held back an idea in a meeting because you didn't want to sound foolish. Maybe you downplayed an accomplishment because you didn't want to come across as showy or arrogant or look at me. Maybe you've waited for permission to do something, or waited for the perfect timing, or waited for just a little bit of more confidence before taking that next step. Here's the thing: most of us think visibility is a confidence problem, right? Like we tell ourselves, I'm looking for more confidence. I'm trying to build my confidence. And once I am more confident, then I'll speak up, then I'll share my work, then I'll go after that opportunity. But what if confidence isn't the issue? What if the reason we shrink has less to do with our capability and more to do with what our nervous system has learned is safe? Maybe you already have the confidence, but there's something else going on within your body. My guest today, Capu Patel, has spent her career helping women understand exactly that. From earning a PhD and leading in the pharmaceutical industry to becoming a photographer and now a mindset coach, she's awesome. Capu has seen firsthand how brilliant, talented people often hide in plain sight. Not because they lack the ability, but because they've been conditioned to believe that taking up space is risky. So in this conversation, I chat with Capu about that and we explore the patterns of thinking around shrinking. How do you recognize them? Where do they come from? And most importantly, how do we begin to reclaim the space that has been ours all along? Because, my friends, the goal isn't to become someone louder, bolder, or more performative. Because for many of us, that's not true. That's not real, that's not authentic. The point, the goal is to become more fully yourself. So if you've ever felt like you've been waiting for permission to show up, to share your voice, or to step into the next chapter of your life, I think this conversation is exactly what you need. And I hope that it sparks something new in the way that you think about your confidence, your voice, your presence, your worthiness. So enjoy. Capu, welcome to the show, my friends.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for inviting me. And shall I afford to use KT?
SPEAKER_02Yes, please. You can call me all sorts of things. Don't call me Kathy and don't call me Kitty.
SPEAKER_01So I'm glad I picked the right one.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I've gotten both of those. No, I'm just kidding. Um, okay, the lady. So I am intrigued by the idea of shrinking as it relates to our nervous system. So for those of you listening, here's the setup. In the work that I do, particularly around championing women in life and leadership in the workplace, there is a lot of conversation and research around visibility that women intention intentionally shrink or stay small because they've been conditioned to do so. There's quite a bit of research around how culture does this to women. And Cabu, you have a really interesting perspective that part of this shrinking is a response to our nervous system, it becomes a safety situation, or I don't want to say problem or challenge, not necessarily a confidence thing. Because you know, when I've done workshops, I've engaged with women who are like, I don't have a confidence issue. And yet I really do struggle with oh shining my light and being visible. And so when you say that visibility is not a confidence problem, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01So can I define visibility first?
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01Um, and it's so interesting in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so, since we've had this little six-inch screen ruling our world, you know, people assume visibility is about showing up online or do you know doing whatever it is that you're doing, but visibility is also taking up space in a room full of people. And you often hear, you know, she's either not good at her work or she doesn't know her material or she's not confident, and that's something that we then channel and write in our own storytelling. But a lot of times it's also about safety, and even some people have used the terms in my work with me, shame. And safety is because if you have been in a situation um growing up where you've let's say you've always been compared, uh-huh. Mrs. Shah's son made it to med school and you're still here kind of situation, right? When you've been compared, then you always have that comparison as your baseline. And when the comparison is the baseline, then when you want to speak up, you have that thing at the back of your mind that tells you, well, what if I'm not good enough? And if I'm not good enough, then I'll bring shame, or I, you know, people will judge me, or what if they think I do not know myself? So they don't feel safe about putting what's out there in front of whoever it is in front of them. So uh that's how I say, and and confidence then comes once you feel safe, then you feel confident, right? Because you're safe in your own self like that. Okay, halo goes away.
SPEAKER_02I like the idea of safety being safe in yourself. Because I was thinking, is it emotional safety? Is it psychological safety? And maybe it's all of that. So, can you unpack for us a little bit what being safe in yourself means or looks like? Because I like that term that term. Like confidence can come when I feel safe in myself. So your safety isn't reliant upon other people, it's within yourself. Can you say more about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think that so it's very interesting, right? Like you also use the words about emotional safety. In some aspects, it's physical safety. And I don't mean to downplay, like, if you've had traumatic experiences, that in and of itself, you know, needs a lot of work. And that's not what I'm talking about here. What I'm talking about is when I feel safe, that I won't be judged, like judging is a huge issue, you know. When I don't have to worry about what others think of me, and maybe they're not even thinking of me, but I think they think of me to that's visually the situation. So when I feel safe that I can be who I am, maybe even show up in my pajamas and I'll still be accepted, right? That's a part of safety. And when you feel accepted, and if you are in a conference room where nobody looks like you, nobody has the same last name as you. And if you're the only female sitting and there's only males around you, like there are lots of those elements, then you feel like, well, am I an outsider? And if you don't feel like an outsider, then you feel safe. So there are lots of these elements that come together in terms of safety.
SPEAKER_02So what's happening in a woman's nervous system? You talk about the correlation, like safety. This isn't like a nervous system response that keeps women quiet or small in a space in a room. And quiet can be voice both in voice, quiet, not sharing my perspective, I'm not sharing my opinion, I'm not sharing my ideas. Quiet can also be metaphorical and not I am not taking up space in a room, I'm staying, I'm like quiet in my presence. Well, let me pause first and say, what does that mean to you taking up space in a room? Because I've used that term, I've heard that term. Like, what does it mean to take up space in a room?
SPEAKER_01It doesn't have to be loud, it doesn't have to be big. But when you have something of value to add and you know that it's going to make a difference in that room, then bringing it forth is taking up space. And it's not about raising my hand like this. I know we're on audio, but I'm gonna like I'm shrinking and raising my hand. And actually, you know, being now I'm gonna go come back to confidence because if you feel safe, then you can take up space and then you can feel confident to say what you want to say. Is it to answer your question?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I what I was thinking of is for my own self. I've used this term like when you walk, but when you walk into a room, do you take up space or do you shrink? And I I had this visual in my head of walking into a room and you stay to the edges and you maybe take a seat in a non, I don't want to say non-dominant space, but not at not at the head of the table or in the corner of the room, or or you don't engage. And then when you do have an idea, you showed it visibly, like sheepishly, you kind of stick up your hand versus like boldly, it doesn't have to be loud, but boldly raise your hand or stand up. So taking up space, like I belong in this space. I deserve, I deserve to be in this space, to take up this space. And I may or may not say something out loud. That's not the point of it. The point of it is I'm not going to edit myself or withhold anything. I'm also not gonna force anything either. Like, I recognize that I am I am deserved to be here, and so I don't need to prove myself as well. Oh my gosh. I have so many questions. And I'm like, which one do I? I want to go first to say, why did you feel called to do this work? Meaning, like, what was the first time that you saw, you know what? Disability isn't a confidence thing. We keep calling it a confidence thing. It's a safety thing, and that is showing up in our bodies from a physiological standpoint. Why, where did you notice this and why why do you feel called to like name it and talk about it?
SPEAKER_01You know, I a lot of things, and this may be true for a few women who are from my cultural and age-specific background, but we have lived experiences.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And when you're going through those experiences, you don't realize that uh you're learning something or it's important enough. But when you get to a certain stage and you reflect back on it, you know, that becomes like an impetus that says, you know what? If I were to do things differently, this is what would happen. So I kind of came here in a very evolutionary way. When I was in a boardroom with a whole bunch of male scientists, people would pass me by when they were asking for opinion for two reasons. Maybe it was just because I was female, but more importantly, they didn't know how to say my name. And so I started using my initials. And believe it or not, 40 years later, people still only know me by my initial in that part of my world. And like, and that to me, when I reflected on it, it's because I did not want to take up space. Like, you know, just call me whatever is comfortable for you because kalpana may be hard, and let's just leave it at that. And then when I became a photographer, because for 10, 15 years, I was doing confidence work through photography. And again, it was the same old situation. It wasn't about what you looked on the outside. If on the inside you feel that you do not matter or you cannot take up space, then it doesn't matter whether you are being photographed by any Leibwitz and you're like on you know, world, you're still going to be feeling about this small. And that work actually was a lot of the background work. And and then I kind of tied, put all the pieces together, and I was like, you know what? Maybe my next calling is to serve women to be visible, whether it is physically visible, it's taking up space, it's visible for being for ourselves too, right? Because a lot of times we make small ourselves small even for ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Oh, we unpack that. How do we make ourselves small for ourselves? I like that. I just want to know what that means.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, and uh I come from that generation which is like, you know, the sandwich generation. We take care of our parents, we take care of our kids, we don't necessarily take care of ourselves. And again, it's that self-care piece. But beyond that, like if somebody even handed me an opportunity with like here, and actually I'll be very vulnerable and honest with you. I have a massage certificate sitting on my desk for two years, right? But it makes if somebody handed me the gift of a massage certificate, I would like no, I don't need it, or I don't, you know, let me take care of it or gift it to my husband first, or you know, gift it to my sister first, or so you're not taking up space for yourself and say, Well, you know what? I deserve it. Like I even uttering those words, like, I deserve this.
SPEAKER_02Hmm, what a fascinating and beautiful way to reframe or to look at why more women don't intuitively care for themselves. Like, I there is social conditioning, I don't know if it's biological, whatever, nature or nurture, but the reality is, I just had a conversation with a friend last night who is such a beautiful, giving, dynamite soul with wisdom and fire and humor and amazing. And the way that she pours into her clients, her family, her best friend. And when I asked, Well, what are you doing for yourself so that you can be the best version of yourself in those spaces? It's like, I don't know. I don't, and I hadn't thought about that as another way that women shrink or make themselves small is when they don't believe that they are worthy of taking up space in the self-care space. Like, oh my gosh, I hear all of the time. I was just at a women's conference yesterday where it's like, lean in, take a seat at the table, you know, share your voice. And I wonder how many women in that room are taking up space in the aspect of caring for themselves. Such a good nugget. So why does the advice of yeah, just speak up, be visible, lean in, take a seat at the table? Why does you know all of the things that look really good on a button, a button that we wear, like why does that fall flat?
SPEAKER_01So I firmly believe from my personal experience and what I've seen with my the work that I do with women, and as you know, I I work a lot with Southeast Asian women, women in science and STEM. It is a lot about conditioning, right? Like it is, and and conditioning is such a word that is thrown so often, and you know, it may or may not relate to everybody, but at the end of the day, it is about what we we hear spoken to us, what we hear spoken to us, and the context that we hear it in, and we make that story about that particular those particular words, it gets imprinted in our subconscious so deeply that it uh really truly prevents us from taking up that space. So, and this may or may not be related to self-care, but I was working with a woman who for years and years, she's bright, smart, like you said, like your friend, very intelligent, poured herself in. But each time she had an idea at work, she would not present it. And because she was, and as we dug deeper and deeper and deeper, like lots of conversations later, it was like she was afraid to be challenged, and she was afraid to be challenged because in her whole history, she was taught by her parents not to create conflict, be at peace, because in their experiences, whatever conflict they had created had not banned out well. And then every, and I don't even want to use the word altercation because that's a very negative term, but every debate, let's just use the word debate, right? Every debate, if that if a debate is viewed as an altercation or a conflict, then you're gonna step back and say, you know what, not worth it. And you're not consciously even aware of it.
SPEAKER_02You just do it. I had never heard someone describe or break down what conditioning is, and I and I love this breakdown because I feel like when we can break things down, name it, then that gives us agency over it. Then what do I want to do with this? How can I change it? So what I heard was that conditioning is the words that we have heard spoken to us, so the words spoken to us in a particular context, and the story that we've attributed to those words, and when we hear them over and over again, they become imprinted on our on our subconscious, and it is a an a subconscious, unconscious habit of thinking that we have to then actively bring to the conscious and change the words, well, change the story that are attached to the words in context. Yeah, like that.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. You really put it well. Well, you said it, I just smeared it back. And you know, it's also that awareness, right? Like to create creating that awareness is sometimes we're resistant to creating an awareness too. Like the culture that I come from is a very collective culture, everything happens in a collective, you know. Is your son dating somebody? That is also a collective question that is asked, you know. Hey, did you buy a house? How much did you pay for it? That's a collective question, too. So all aspects are collective, and when they're collective, you fail to see that it's very interesting because American culture is a very individualistic culture, and we tread both sides of the water. Like, I feel like I'm like always balancing, right? Like, where am I, where am I? And at the end of the day, when you are in that collective culture, then you you do not you're not even aware because you're just riding the wave with everybody else.
SPEAKER_02I I was trying to imagine it's amazing how culture really does shape your lived experience and and how much it does reside in your subconscious. Because I'm trying to think like, what does that even look like to ride the wave of the Collective conscious. I don't even, I don't even know that I can get there because if not, it's not my lived experience. So that was me trying to like just follow you. I was like, ooh, what does that, what does that look like? When it comes to visibility, or really the opposite. What you're what you're addressing is the ways women, in particular, women, shrink. What are some common patterns that you see? I mean, we talked about like share, you're sharing your opinion, your perspective, but what are other some other common shrinking patterns? Because now we say this is the first step is awareness. And so there might even be ways that, or there likely are ways that women are shrinking that they know about, but they also don't know about. So what are some common patterns that you see?
SPEAKER_01I think first it's denial of a lot of like, I do not deserve this, right? Like I don't deserve the promotion, or I'm not ready, or it's not perfect, so I won't present it. Like those are like the outward signs. The inward signs are also, believe it or not, sometimes like going along with the masses or the herd mentality. Even if you feel that, and I'm gonna give a perfect example. Like, if you want to go out for dinner as a group, it's everybody wants to eat Mexican, but you feel like pizza, like you're not gonna speak up that I want pizza. We're just gonna go with Mexican if that's what everybody wants. So that's one of the ways that it shows up. It shows up in terms of taking time for yourself, right? Self-care is one of the biggest ways it shows up. And always I've also seen women, and this comes from my time during my photography days when I used to say they'll come for family portraits, and I'm I would be like, okay, let me photograph you, you know, like your children are five, ten years old. What did their mother look like when they were five, ten years old? They'd want to know, right? Let me photograph you. Oh, no, no, no. This is about all about my kids. This is not about me. And when was the last time you asked yourself, what about me?
SPEAKER_02That's really is it fascinating? I think the word I want to use is fascinating. That women moms don't want to be photographed. I mean, oh, there's a whole thing about people's visibility, not wanting to be photographed, but in it from a capturing, not the like, oh, I don't like how I look, like that's not what I mean. The I want to capture this season of our family's life, my kids, their age, what they look like, the family photos, but and maybe even my partner or what have you, and maybe my partner together. But the moment the photographer is like, would you do what pictures of just you as though you're not worth capturing yourself in that moment? Not maybe it's not even for you to reflect on. Maybe it's so that down the line, your kids have pictures of their mom or their dad at different stages of both their youth but also their parents' life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, pictures, unsurprisingly, they capture the energy of that unit, whatever that unit is, right? So when you come, when you have photos taken with your children or of your children, because that's typically how they come and say, my son's 10 or my son's five, or I wanted photos of that. You as an individual also bring a certain energetic aspect to this whole collective, and yet your individual energy you don't want to capture, you just want to capture the amalgame, if anything, the amalgame, amalgamation of it all, right? So it's so important to take up space in that aspect too.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Okay, so any other like fascinating patterns that you see that are out of the norm? And I say that because, like, I mean, it's important. Sharing your ideas around the board table is important. Taking up space in the boardroom is important. And I also feel like that becomes this overused term that becomes this motivational, rah-rah, rah, women's moment when there are, and it's not that it's not important, but it's, I feel often overused and not addressing some of these core worthiness conversations that you're pointing out where you may think you deserve or should share your idea in the boardroom, but why not capture your energy with your family or invest in yourself the way you pour into and invest in others? So, are there any other patterns that you see?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, oh my God, so many daily patterns, right? And again, it all comes from lived experiences. A simple thing, like somebody once reminded me, and I take that to heart, is like when you wake up and if you, you know, as part of your routine day, whatever that you're doing, like put effort into yourself, dress up, you know, take care of it, show your issues. That's energy that you're putting in there. Like if you let yourself go, I know the days that I hang out in my pajamas, I'm not productive. Like, it's basic things like that also matter. Investing in good stuff that makes your life easy is another way of looking at things. Okay. I work with a lot of a lot with women who are in the science and the STEM field, and working on a collective project, writing a publishing an article, and you know, being, and it's important to be the first author, whether we like it or not, right? Like claiming space over there, it's not just about boardroom, right? When something is published, and if you've contributed to that, then you know, saying, I did contribute to this, or you know, this was an idea that, or even one-on-one conversations with somebody, you know, holding saying that this was an idea that I presented, let's move forward with it. Because a lot of times, sometimes men's plaining also happens. So, and then the then the the ownership shifts when that happens, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, when someone is explaining the idea at a connotative level, they become the person in authority because they're the one that's explaining. And so people uh even if the woman was the one with the idea, if someone else, woman or man, is takes that and starts explaining it, they become then the authority of that. And so, from a value standpoint, oh, that's interesting. What else? So it's move so identifying how then we can have the permission to take up space. So moving from like the ways that we shrink to then what are opportunities? I like that idea of publishing an article. And when there are multiple authors on an article, it does matter whose name is first, because that's you know, when you when you cite the source and when you search it, it says if you're looking for that first, it, you know, it seems small. And that's what I wonder. Oh, so this is I when I said, oh, this seems small, that how often do you see this? This is a question. How often do you see women justifying not taking up space because it seems silly or small?
SPEAKER_01Like this stuff seems so inconsequential or small, or you know, yeah, and that is that pattern is well known, right? Like what whatever we think is inconsequential. So I'll give you an example. At last year's New Jersey conference for women, there were about 600 women, and I I had what was called a brag tree, and I brought a tree, and then uh I had these little hanging things that said brag on one side, and you know, what would you like to work on the other side? And I would hand these little cards to women and say, Okay, brag about yourself. And majority of the women, they're like, I don't know what I want to like, what have I done? I haven't done anything, nothing of consequence. Like, what should I write about? And there was one man who showed up at my table, and do you believe it? He didn't, it didn't even take him a second. He just like rot, rot, rot, rot, and hung up on the tree. And and that was just very telling because for us, when if somebody said, What uh, you know, what have you done, or you know, anything that we are asked to talk about or accomplishments, we always seem to downplay it. We don't think that it's important enough, you know, because oh, this is just something that comes natural to me, you know. Like really, men would make a big deal about boiling eggs, you know, that it's boil eggs.
SPEAKER_02Is it uh because I've seen that too, and I mean, maybe, and there's never just one thing, there's always multiple things at work and that are intersecting with one another. Part of me also wonders if that is a response, the downplaying, like, oh, I don't know, it's not that big of a deal. The downplay because the traditional view of leadership, of power, of taking up space, is dominance and ego and confidence and winning. And that feels so unpalatable to many, particularly women, that that we don't want to come across as egotistical, overly confident. And so what we perceive to be humility is in fact coming across as shrinking and maybe even some self-deprecation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you know, shrinking, I don't do not want to discount like because there are times when you really don't want to be out there in your face kind of situation, right? But at the same time, you you're not shrinking. So I think women are quite wise in terms of they know where to take up space, right? They know where they have important things to contribute, but there are times when they downplay their the importance of what they have to contribute, and that's more along the lines of thinking. There's also that piece about, you know, if you're too loud, too in your face. Oh, yeah. I see a shift happening now. Women are owning that and they're not uncomfortable, but also I see other women saying, you know, like she's too loud, too in her face. So collectively as a society, we haven't reached that acceptance level to say this is the norm.
SPEAKER_02No, well, no, yes, no, let me give you all of my answers. Agreed that collectively, a woman who has a fierce presence, and that fierceness doesn't have to be loud, it can be that fierceness can all also be intelligence and a quiet strength. And often though, it does. We tend to critique it when it is loud and opinionated and bossy and these things, and I still hear it. And to your point, one of my messages, one of my keynotes to women is around I'm laughing because every time I say it, it cracks me up and I want to do it. I do know home. I take no crap, I own my power. And owning my power is I'm owning the fullness of who I am. And where I got that from is I read this amazing, for those of you listening, if you've not read it, is this phenomenal book called Cassandra Speaks, When Women Are the Storytellers, the Human Story Changes by Elizabeth Lesser. And she introduces, I forget which chapter, it might be chapter seven or nine. She introduces the Tiaton Buddha in Hong Kong, China. Um, it is this, you can Google it, it is this massive, massive bronze statue of a Buddha sitting cross-legged in the lotus flower, holding two mudras, two symbolic hand gestures. And I can never say them correctly. One's Varita, and one is, oh, I forget. But one in in the Buddhist tradition means I invite conversation, I invite your perspective, I invite connection. And the other one, uh, so that one is the hand, the palm upward, deceiving, sending forward. And the other one looks more like stop, and it's, but it's I I hold, I stand firm or I sit firm in my convictions, I know who I am. And I've adapted that to I do no harm. So, you know, I invite connection with you and I and and I want to hear your perspective and I want to understand you, but also I'm not gonna take any crap. Like I'm just not gonna take your crap. And you can have your opinion of me, but I am not too loud, I am not too bold, I am not too silly, I'm not too smart, I am who I am, and so my power is I'm sitting in the confidence of that. So I was laughing when you said that because I had my my visual of my of my of the Buddha sitting here, I do no harm, I take no crap, I owe my power. Yeah, that's actually a great line, you know?
SPEAKER_00Isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I am curious for you. The advice, I mean, I don't know that it's advice, but we there's this mantra that floats around, which is fake it till you make it. And some people, some people critique it as if you're inauthentic, it makes visibility harder or worse because it's not you. And then there's this other line of thought, it makes me think of the alter ego effect. Have you read that book? Who's it bought? Um, I forget his name, Tom something or other. The alter ego effect, where many high-performance athletes, musicians, performers don a persona that is an extension of themselves, and by doing so allows them to take up space. And so the fake it till you make it isn't you come up with something completely foreign, but rather an extension of yourself. So, where do you fall in the spectrum of fake it till you make it?
SPEAKER_01I think the terminology doesn't sit well with me, fake it till you make it. Okay, right? Because this the word fake is that means there is no authenticity to you. But if you're totally authentic about whatever it is that you bring to the table and your self-talk is holding you back, then exactly those personas that these athletes and musicians develop is the persona that is going to help you get that. And and you know, maybe practice it in front of the mirror, right? Like I thought this I am that kapo and I can do it, or I am that Katie and I can't do it, kind of situation. But the word fake it doesn't sit right, like that term, the term doesn't sit right with me, but you're not faking it till you're making it, you know it. You you're authentically able to provide whatever it is that you want to offer to the world, you know.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, so then Kabu, can I push back? Not push back. Well, yeah, I'm gonna let okay, because I don't know where I I don't know that I'm convinced in this, but it this popped into my head. So going back to the opening part of our conversation, that part of your belief around visibility isn't just a confidence issue or a confidence issue, maybe at all, rather a safety issue. And so if I don't feel safe, whether physically safe or psychologically safe or emotionally safe or self-safe safe in myself, it's it there is a physiological response happening in my body. And yeah, and I can learn the practices to work through it. And so what I'm thinking is fake it till you make it. In that moment, maybe I don't feel confident or sure of myself. And so it doesn't feel authentic, but I also know the only way I'm gonna get through it and over that is to embody it and practice it and then feel so is there an element again, maybe fake it isn't make it crack play it till you make it? I don't know what the phrase is.
SPEAKER_01No, and this is excellent. I love that word, play it till you make it. Because when I hear fake it till you make it, it seems like you are not qualified, but you just continue. That's just my interpretation of the word. It's isn't it interesting how we take words also and how we make meaning out of it? Oh, I play it until you make it. I like that. Yes, absolutely. I'm 100% with you. You may not feel safe in that moment, and you have to push past that. And also, I think it's important, like if you continue to feel unsafe, right? Like once or twice is fine, you overcome it. But if you continue to feel unsafe, then you need to dig deeper into what is the root cause of it. Because let's just like you know, uproot that and throw that out so that you're not continuing to feel that. Because that's not good for your nervous system, it's not good for your energy that you're, you know, if you're speaking in front of other people or whatever, it is, it may be you're you're delivering something important to the client, or even even in your home situation, if this is a continuous, that's what creates stress, right? It stops being joyful at that point in time.
SPEAKER_02So, in the work that you do in helping women become more visible, not that they're becoming more visible, but that they're that you're supporting them in doing the internal work to be more visible? What have you found? I mean, besides the fact that people can hire you, they could do coaching with you and and connect with you and training with you. What are some helpful practices, frameworks, tools? Like, what are some things that you can suggest where women know that they might need to lean into the fullness of who they are and are still unsure how to do it? Like, do you have any tips, tricks, steps, things, frameworks that you could share?
SPEAKER_01So I think I am a personal believer that every little thing we feel in our body, right? So when when you are in that state where it doesn't feel right, you feel it in your body. So stay tuned to your body. And then I love Iron Katie's work about those four questions, you know. Is it more? Is it true? Okay, right? Is it I I I'm paraphrasing it, is it absolutely true? I think that's what she asks. And then how do you feel when you know that it is true? So is it true? Is it absolutely true? How do you maybe she says, how do you react when you when you believe that it is true? And if it wasn't true, what on who would you be?
SPEAKER_02What is the last question again? If it wasn't true, who would you be? Yeah, how do you use that question?
SPEAKER_01So my boss doesn't like me.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so is it true? I don't know. It feels like it's true. Well, is it absolutely true? Absolutely true, you know. I don't know. And then and then what is the question?
SPEAKER_01How do you feel? How do you react when you believe it to be true, right? Like, you know, where does it like I feel like is is it in your body? Does it make you emotional? Do you do you get upset? And if it wasn't true, you know, who would you be? Like, what would you and that kind of helps you give guidance to your next step? And I'm not, you know, I may be paraphrasing a lot of the words that she uses, but it's with most work that I do and for myself too, sometimes I'm like, is it really true? Like, am I making this up? Is this a story I'm telling myself?
SPEAKER_02Yes. Oh, I love that. Like, is it true? And then yes, it's true. No, is it really true? Is it absolutely true? Absolutely true. And how do you feel when it is true? If it is true, how do you feel, or how do you react? And then the last one, who would you be, or how would you be if it wasn't true? I like that one. And who was the Byron Katie? Byron Katie. Okay, I'll have to look that up. I love that. Okay, so then you mentioned you know, like this connection to your body. Like you listen to your body, you notice how it shows up in your body, and how do how do we Distinguish, how do we differentiate when I should when I should listen to my body and I shouldn't listen to my body? So I was thinking like, you know, when if you don't feel safe, or you know, and different iterations of that, like you feel it in your body, you feel you're you're triggered, you you feel a heightened sense of awareness and emotion. And when is something, an alarm bell that you should listen to? Well, when I say listen, maybe you should always listen to it. When is it an alarm bell that is telling you this is not safe and it's not okay? And when is it a warning bell that's well, this is my response to it, but this isn't true?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that is a very tough one, right? Because sometimes you really, really need to establish that safety. Because we are very good at it in your gut if you know that this is not right, like go with your intuition, don't even take a chance. But so, in in those kinds of safety situations, absolutely just run with it. But I'm talking about like everyday situations, right? Like it's not an abusive relationship or it's unsafety in the park or something like that. But in an everyday situation when you're feeling unsafe because you know, somebody said, do this, I don't really want to do it. And it could be simple, I'm telling you, it's as simple as like going for Mexican versus eating pizza. And you you you will feel it in your body, like you'll feel it, you'll either clench your fist or you know, your your shoulders ride up. And I like for me, it's personally feels at the back of my neck on this side, right? And when you feel that, like take a moment and just do some basic things like box breathing, you know? There are like so many somatic exercises to help regulate your nervous system because when you're in that heightened state, I don't know, my mouth runs like a million miles per hour, and you don't want to say things. Either you shut down or you're in the complete opposite end, or you know, so it helps you calm down and then ask the question like, you know, how important is it in the grand scheme of things, you know? It's like when you're raising teenagers, right? You ask the question, like, is this the fight worth fighting?
SPEAKER_02I um I worked with an attorney. Uh I he had such a great well, he has. I talk about him like he's no longer living, though. He's very much alive. I just don't work with him anymore. Worked with an attorney who has a really wonderful sense of humor, and he'd be like, Kenny is that the hill you want to die on? I know you feel very passionate about that, but is this the hill we want to die on? I'm like, yes, yes. Is it? Are you sure? No, it's not. It's right, you know, it's fine. Yeah. Closing question for you. What if if you could give women permission or you would encourage them to give themselves permission? What is one thing you would want women to give permission to themselves for to do to be? What would what permission slip would you give them?
SPEAKER_01Oh wow. That's a tough one.
SPEAKER_02This is existential. Maybe I should change the name of this podcast to existential questions with Katie or questions with existential kating or something like that.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. If we're talking about with respect to visibility, yeah, yeah, I think um I would say forget about what others think of you or may think of you, or do you think they think of you and really truly focus on yourself because they're only focused on themselves.
SPEAKER_02So, folks, for for you for you listening to give yourself permission to stop thinking about what other people think. Yeah. That in in the moment when it matters the most, you have full permission to release, to give yourself permission to release what other people think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And more than what other people think. Sometimes it's like what we think they think.
SPEAKER_02They may not be thinking that. I'm gonna I'm gonna write that permission set for myself. I give myself permission to stop thinking about what other people think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because they may not be thinking it, because they're too preoccupied with thinking about themselves.
SPEAKER_02No, that well, and isn't that the case? Like in in thinking about what other people think of me, I am in essence thinking of me. And so, how many of us aren't actually thinking about other people? We're thinking about ourselves because we're thinking about what other people think about us, and they're not even thinking about us.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, this is that super well, I can't even say that, you know, from Brianka.
SPEAKER_02The super mind, like mess with you. Like, oh my God, because I'm so worried about what other people think, I think I'm thinking about what they think, but in essence, I'm just thinking about myself because I'm thinking about what they think that they think about me. Well, really, this is just thinking about me. Yeah. Thank you for being a good, playful partner in and conversationalist, um, and sharing your passion and your wisdom and your encouragement with us. I'm really grateful for you, my friend.
SPEAKER_01And I'm so grateful that you gave me the time and the space to have this conversation because it has kicked off this gray rainy day for me. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Y'all, thanks for spending some of your day with me. I'm really grateful for you. And I hope this episode sparked something new for you in the way that you think about your life, your work, your leadership, and your relationships. If it did, I'd love if you would give us a review on whatever platform that you listen to your podcast. And share this episode with anyone who you think might be interested in listening to it. And finally, let me know if there are any other topics that you want to see covered in future episodes. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram, all under the handle PBS. My friends, take good care of yourselves. Keep shining beautiful lights. And I'll see you next time.