Spark Something New
What would it look like to be in love with your life? What would it take to live as you to show up as your full and authentic self? What would you need in order to find rest? It would take a spark of something new! Something to help you think differently, act differently, build relationships differently, and lead differently. You'll find that spark here, on the Spark Something New Podcast!
Spark Something New
Episode 98: You’re Not Stuck, You Just Can’t See the Possibilities Yet | Dr. Irina Cozma
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Ever find yourself thinking...
I’m stuck.
I don’t know what to do.
There’s no other option.
That person is NEVER going to change.
Yeah. Us too.
But what if the problem isn’t that there are no other possibilities? What if you just can’t see them yet?
In this episode, Dr. Katie sits down with organizational psychologist and executive coach Dr. Irina Cozma to talk about becoming a possibility thinker—someone who refuses to assume that the first answer, the familiar answer, or even the seemingly obvious answer is the only answer.
And this isn’t about toxic positivity or pretending every problem has an easy solution. It’s about getting curious enough to ask: What else could I try?
Irina shares three places to look when you can’t seem to find a way forward: within yourself, within your relationships, and within the process itself. Sometimes possibility means changing your own behavior. Sometimes it means having the conversation you’ve been avoiding. Sometimes it means questioning the way something has always been done.
And sometimes? It means putting a Post-it note on your computer that reminds you to slow the heck down.
From hard conversations and difficult coworkers to career decisions, perfectionism, fear of failure, and our obsession with what other people might think, this conversation is an invitation to loosen your grip on the way it has to be and experiment with what else might be possible.
Because maybe you’re not as stuck as you think. Maybe you just haven’t found your next possibility yet.
Key Learnings:
1. “Stuck” may be a signal that your thinking has narrowed.
When we say things like “There’s nothing I can do,” “They’ll never change,” or “This is just how it is,” we may be treating one interpretation or path as the only one available. A possibility thinker challenges that assumption and asks what else might be available.
2. Look for possibility in three places: inner, relational, and process.
Sometimes the opportunity is inner—changing how you think, regulate your emotions, or behave. Sometimes it’s relational—changing how you communicate, ask for help, set a boundary, delegate, or influence someone. And sometimes it’s process—changing the approach, structure, sequence, or way something gets done. Looking through all three lenses can reveal options we couldn't see before.
3. A different outcome usually requires trying something different.
Knowing another option exists isn't enough. Irina encourages experimentation—even with something as small as opening a meeting differently, asking a different question, or changing one behavior. Fear of failing, looking ridiculous, or worrying about what others will think can keep us from ever testing the possibilities available to us.
4. Possibility thinking is a practice, not a personality trait.
Behavior change takes repetition. In one example, Irina shares how a client preparing for emotionally charged conversations used a simple Post-it asking, “Is it worth it?” as a reminder to pause and choose his response. Small experiments, reflection, and repetition gradually create new ways of responding.
5. Give yourself a chance before deciding something isn't possible.
Irina's simplest starting point is to trust yourself a little more. You have experience, strengths, values, and evidence that you've done hard things before. And as she reminds listeners at the end of the conversation, if another human has found a way to do the thing you want to do, that's evidence that a path exists—even if yours ultimately looks different.
Try This: The Possibility Post-it
Think about one situation where you currently feel stuck. Instead of trying to solve the whole thing, write one question on a Post-it: “What else might be possible?”
Put it somewhere you'll see it. Then challenge yourself to identify possibilities across three areas:
- ME: What could I think, believe, or do differently?
- WE: What could change in how I engage with the other person?
- HOW: What could I change about the approach or process?
You don't need to pursue every possibility. The practice is simply reminding yourself that the first answer isn't necessarily the only answer.
Links & Resources:
- Connect with Irina on LinkedIn
- Explore Irina's Website: www.irinacozma.com
Guest Info:
Dr. Irina Cozma is an organizational psychologist and executive coach who helps accomplished professionals strengthen the human skills that make work—and leadership—better.
After ten years in management consulting and experience with organizations including Salesforce and Wells Fargo, Irina now works with high performers on areas such as emotional regulation, delegation and boundaries, strategic influence, perfectionism, and behavioral change.
At the heart of her work is helping people become possibility thinkers: people who can move beyond “I don't know” and “I'm stuck” to see more options, experiment with new approaches, and become more intentional about how they work, lead, and live.
Connect with Katie on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. You can also get free resources to help you on your purpose journey at www.katiesandoe.com.
Hi y'all, I'm Katie Zando, and this is the Spark Something New Podcast. A place where we explore topics and conversations that can help you find different ways to live, to work, and to lead. I am so glad that you're here. So let's spark something new together. Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the Spark Something New Podcast. On this week's episode, we talk about what does it mean to be a possibility thinker? Now, before you're like, oh my gosh, that's me. I think about possibilities all the time. I challenge you to consider this. When was the last time that you've said something like, they're just not going to change? Or I cannot see a way out of this? Or I'm feeling stuck. Maybe it's in a relationship, maybe it's in a career or some other aspect of your life. Or maybe, you know what, I'm going to go have that conversation. I am going to go approach this person. I'm going to go give feedback to this employee. But you know what? I know it's not going to do anything. They're not going to accept what I have to say. All of those are examples of limited thinking. And my guest this week, Irina Cosma, is an organizational psychologist and executive coach who helps high performers overcome that thinking and move into what she calls possibility thinking. Irina has a background in consulting and also considerable expertise at some big hitters like Salesforce and Wills Fargo. And her work all centers around helping leaders strengthen their mindset and develop the soft skills that unlock truly better performance, stronger, deeper relationships, and more fulfilling life. And that includes, my friends, work and the workplace. So if you have ever found yourself in some limited thinking, aka every single one of you listening have probably done that. I do it all the time. Then this episode is for you. And I hope it sparked something new in the way that you look at what might be possible. So enjoy. Irina, welcome to the show, my friend. So good to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm not doing dancing with my hands, friends. It's ridiculous. Um, Irina, I'm really excited to talk to you about this concept called possibility thinking. Okay, friends, to set this up for you. I don't know about you, but there have been times in my life where I have felt stuck. Maybe it's stuck in a relationship. Not my husband. I love and adore my husband, but like stuck in a family relationship, stuck in a friendship, um, stuck from a career perspective, maybe just feeling like, oh. And Irena, I've been chatting with people more and more who feel like this pull towards something and they're not exactly sure what it is. Maybe they need a shift in their life, maybe they should need a shift in the rear. Um, not a shift in the rear. They need a shift in their career. I don't know. Maybe they need a shift in their rear. Friends, I think I should make a button out of that. Get a shift in the rear. Okay. Um, way too much coffee already this morning. And they use this language just like I feel stuck. So there is this illusion of stuckness that we have, where when we want to make a change, make a shift, leap, and we don't have clarity around it, we just like we just say I feel stuck. So when you hear that arena, when someone says, I feel stuck, what are they actually experiencing in your perspective?
SPEAKER_01And I like how you use the word illusion because that's all there is. It's a trick that the brain those darn brains of ours. Yeah. So there is never an I will qualify a little of this because uh especially now with everything that's happening in the world, like I don't want to come across as like, no, never in every situation, I'm well, almost in every situation, there is a way out. But I would say yes, if you are in a conflict zone, if bombs come on your head, like there is different type of options that you have. Like, but for the rest of us that we don't have to worry about any of that, really there is no excuse. No excuse for us to keep feeling sorry for ourselves and keep uh not being willing to do some effort. And uh my heart breaks for people who are stuck not for days, not for weeks, not for months, but for years. I know people who are stuck for years, and that's for me are the hardest one to crack. Like, how can I reach to reason with them to show them, to make them see what I can see from my vantage point being outside of their uh world? I can, you know, from outside you can see much easier. From inside, it feels like it's the end of the world and there is no way out. There is always a way, and there is a metaphor, you know, like if there is a wall, you have to find a way through the wall, behind the wall, above the wall, like make a smallest crack in the wall. Like you cannot accept that the wall is a thing. There is always something that you can do, and I think that's the advantage of uh having another person reflect back to you because another person is more emotionally detached, and they the their brain is not under attack. Like when you are there and you are in the middle of a story, like yes, it's the brain cannot even allow you to see because of that emotional intensity, and uh especially if it's for years, imagine like that brain is atrophied. It's like of course there is no way out of this. And somebody outside of you can have a more objective opinion and perspective on that.
SPEAKER_00So I appreciate the fact that you honored that there is things going on the in the world, like if you are in a war zone or you're in a situation, you know, where the it is a traumatic environment, like that's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is really the first world privilege of you're not in that space, but you're feeling stuck. And I'm curious. So it's a it's in our mind and we're emotionally connected to whatever is happening. So, why in particular do high performers, highly driven people who are, you know, objectively successful and they can push through and they can find solutions when they're at work and with teams and they can problem solve. Why is it that when it comes to our own life, do we get in the stuck trap where we feel lost or we don't know? Or why, especially for those who are like, man, and I don't know why I can't figure this out. Why does it become so hard?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I have I know people and I have friends that are, I mean, from objective speaking, much more smarter, smarter than me. I mean, like, I know that those people are smarter than me. It's objective fact for me that for me it's so interesting to see them over uh many, many decades, how stuck they are. I mean, they literally stay in their own way. That's one thing that happens. So being too smart can sometimes can work in your disadvantage because when you are a little more uh judgmental of things, and you might you might see, oh, but I can see two, three ways away and uh ahead, and like, no, there is no way this is going to work. You know, you feel like you can play chess in your mind and you already uh lost the chess game, but you are not even playing the chess game. It's all move that you make imaginary, and you're like, yes, if and that and that. I know this is not going to work, but I'm like, give it a try. Like there's uh unforeseeable variables that can come along the way and that make your game different or different conclusions. So uh I see many smart people like they abandon and they don't even start something because they already worked through the like, yeah, that's hard. I cannot, it's not going to work. Uh so that's definitely, I'm not sure it's the only thing, but that's I I see it in uh people who are very close to me, um, that I have the privilege to actually see how they they think. But otherwise, I think many times we are just used with doing things in a certain way. And oh, life is not linear and life is not static, and things change. And this idea that we need to change with the things, like the famous thing, like what worked for you before it might not work for you in the future. So people get stubborn uh around that, but I was doing this and I was just fine. I now why it's not fine anymore. Why why why while my life became suddenly harder? But I'm just me, I'm still me, and life is harder. But you need to adjust, you need to change, you need to be aware. Self-awareness is a big uh component in all of this. Uh and I think this is another thing that smart people like they they miss sometimes on the self-awareness. Like they think they are like very, yeah, they're not, I think they're not willing to flex, they're not willing to be flexible, they're not willing to experiment, give it a try, make mistakes. It's another thing that stops many people. Like, oh, I'm going to fail. Oh, it's not going to work. I don't want people to see that I failed. So I better don't do anything. So, and I'm talking this even at trying behaviors, like go to a meeting and say a different sentence, open the meeting in a different way. Oh, but that doesn't feel natural to me. I'm not comfortable doing that. If people will make fun of me that I open like this, I mean, who cares? Go and do it, figure it out, see what happens. Do you want to do something different? Do you want to have a different outcome? If you want a different outcome, you need to do something different. And uh fear of failure and fear of being ridiculous, uh, it's another thing that I think holds back from people to even trying to do some things. So people are stuck, and again, I see it many times. They're stuck, and maybe they even know the solution, but they're not willing to walk the distance between the stuckness and the solution because they again they put these imaginary illusions in their way of uh failing or making errors or what people will say, oh, this is a big one, what people will say.
SPEAKER_00So it's almost, well, not almost, is what you're saying, is self-sabotage that without without sometimes recognizing it, sometimes not recognizing it, that when we use the term, well, I just I feel stuck. It's almost an excuse, like it's a like, well, if I say that I'm stuck, then then okay, then that's a state that I'm in, and and this is a thing. And what you're saying is, well, first it's awareness. The moment you the words come out of your mouth, I feel stuck. That's a recognition that you are thinking in a limited way. You're not thinking, as you call it, um, with possibility. You're not a possibility thinker, you're a limiting thinker. And I know people were like, well, that's not true. I've thought through all the different scenarios and and I just don't see a way forward. And if you're if you are already saying I don't see a way forward, you were that is the limiting mindset. So talk to us about what does it mean in your world to be a possibility thinker in real life? Like, not just a buzzword, not just be like, oh yeah, I want to be a possibility thinker. Like Arena, what is a possibility thinker?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's somebody who sees options instead of seeing constraints. Okay. Somebody who always sees multiple ways out of a situation and out of an uncertain situation of a complex situation. So somebody who is not going to agree that there is no way out, somebody who is not going to accept that it is what it is. Somebody who also, I think uh sometimes we do need a little knowledge. Like information is not everything, action is everything, as far as I'm concerned. But sometimes I think some information might be also useful to understand, to understand how this brain of ours is thinking. You know, I mentioned already the brain, but this brain, and I'm not a neuroscientist, I'm reading a lot about this, and I'm following neuroscientists, but you know, my very easy words, how I would explain to somebody the brain exists to help us survive. The brain is not here for us to have intellectual conversations, it's not here to help us think. No, the brain is here to help us keep us alive. Everything that happens is like the brain directs all of this. And it's a lot of work for this brain to keep all of this alive every millisecond of our life. A lot of energy consumption for this brain. So fundamentally, this is what happens when we have to do a hard thing or a different thing. The brain is like, hmm, I'm not sure about that. I have a lot of work to do. I don't want to do this other thing. We are just fine before you wanted to do this other thing. Like, can we not do it? Because, again, a lot of work to do to keep you alive, first of all. I don't have extra energy to give to something else. So that's kind of the simplest explanation I can give to somebody of why it's hard to even do, to even try, to even attempt to, because the brain is like try to conserve the energy and try to protect us. I'm like, and if you want to do something different, something new, something hard, the brain is like, oh, we never did that before, that might be dangerous. I'm not sure about that. Let's maybe postpone it. Let's we're just fine before. Like, so I'm fundamentally talking with I know the brain is us, but I'm talking about it as a little something outside of us, just for uh the uh uh explaination of this conversation, just to see, like, because you can reason with that brain. So the brain says, No, I'm not, I'm not sure. And you need to go and say, Come on, brain, let's do something here. And this is where uh probably many of our listeners know about they heard about this idea of small steps. That's the whole point of the small steps. How do we make something small enough for the brain not to go in overdrive and say, No, no, no, it's too hard, I'm not going to do that. So if we do something small, the brain is like, okay, maybe I'll give you a little energy for this thing. Uh it doesn't look like I'm going to suffer so much if I give you a little uh additional energy. Like uh I was not planning to give you that, but it looks small enough, so maybe we can try to do that. So that's when when people say, Oh, I'm going to they put amazing goals in front of them, and I'm a big believer in goals, but you need to break them down. You need to think, okay, what can I do today? What can I do tomorrow? Uh, you cannot just have the bigger goal in front of you because the brain is like, I have no idea what to do with that. That looks kind of hard. So we better just don't do anything.
SPEAKER_00So we start out reminding ourselves that the moment we think I'm stuck or I don't see a way out, that is my brain protecting me. There is always a way out. There is always a possibility. I'm thinking in a limited way because my brain is trying to protect me. So there are other possibilities. There are other ways out. And it's one of the things small steps is important because, from an evolutionary perspective, it's a way that our brain will accept change without it feeling big and overwhelming. So if you do have a big goal towards you, like, oh my God, maybe I do need to leave this relationship. Maybe I maybe I want to change a job, maybe I want to change the way that I'm living, that instead of thinking I'm gonna blow it all up tomorrow, because your brain will start going into flight or fight, trying to protect you of all the ways of the potential threats that could happen, what are small shifts that you can make that truly it makes it easier for the brain to absorb and process. Okay. So if we think you talk about that there are different types of possibilities. So when, like whatever this challenge is before me, when I think about there are more possibilities than I'm aware of, you categorize them as three types interrelational and process possibilities. Walk us through, well, walk us through first how you came to those three types of possibilities, and then what are they and how do they help us?
SPEAKER_01Yes, sure. And I will go broad, but if you want to click in in some of them, uh let's go deeper in some of this uh ideas. So, first of all, all of this framework came from my working, working with my clients. So I'm a coach and uh leadership coach, uh, and I'm also uh coaching people who want to make a radical career change, not just a job change. So there is a lot of potential for these people to be like, ooh, this is hard. So uh over time I just heard myself uh I started hearing some themes, you know, like there were all the themes that we're talking with most of the people, and I'm like, maybe this is there is something in this, there are some categories here. So fundamentally, and this is not uh something new, many frameworks start with this idea that there is something inside of you. Like before you go outside of you, go inside of you, you know, revolutionary idea. But uh people always always go outside, like, oh, what options do I have outside? What other jobs there are on the market? What other companies? I'm like, but do you know what you want? Did you ever sit with yourself a little deeper and ask yourself some questions? So this is the inner possibilities. Like if you know yourself a little more, you're going to see the world a little more clear. You're going to make decisions based on what's inside of you, not what random things the world throws your way. So on the inside side, even the thing that we are talking about, learning how the brain works, that's one thing on the inside. You know, it's like you learn a little about your brain, like the biology and the chemistry of the brain. I mean, again, I'm not saying become a neuroscientist, but you know, like it's like I'm not a car car mechanic. Like, I just know if I shift the gears, the car is going. I don't need to understand what's happening, you know. So I'm just asking everybody can you be at that level of like if you know how to drive a car, do you know how to drive your brain? Like without understanding really all the details that a neuroscientist will. So that's pretty fundamental information when you understand that it's just biology and chemistry. There's nothing else in there. And um, as Lisa Feldman-Barrett, which is like kind of the leading neuroscientist these days, uh, she has a talent of explaining things in a simple way. The way she talks about the brain, metaphorically, she says a brain is a piece of meat in a dark place. That's all there is, it's a piece of meat in a dark place.
SPEAKER_00Well then, that just humbled me. My brain that I put so much money in to educate it's basically a piece of meat in a cave. Got it. I freaking love that.
SPEAKER_01It's so empowerful. I mean empowering that like you know, you can do you can tell to this piece of meat what to do. The piece of me shouldn't tell you what to do, you know? So I loved it when she said when I heard it from her. Again, like uh I did not say it, a neuroscientist said it. So it's something so liberating to know that we have some agency on this uh piece of meat. So understanding that, and one more thing I'll say about what I learned from uh Lisa Feldman Barrett, and then we can go to other things on the inner side, uh, because this was very useful to me. So I'm sharing it, maybe it's useful for other people. So, what the brain has to work with, the brain has two things to work with: the past, assuming that you have a decent memory and you remember the past and you remember what happened. So that's the information that you have, and it has a present. What is happening right now? The sound, the light, the heat, the words. And based on this information, the past and the present, the brain needs to make decisions. What do we do next? Do I drink the water? Am I thirsty? Do I should start running? Do I sit down? Oh, my back is hurt, like the brain needs to make some decisions. And the whole uh like how Lisa says, we we have some power to interject in that decision making. So if the past says, Yeah, I know, whenever you are thirsty, drink water. Okay, I'll drink water now. But if the past says, you know what, whenever you meet this person, it's a hard conversation and it's difficult. And now here I am meeting this person, you have a decision to make. You can make another hard conversation, or you can decide to do something different. And if you try to do something different in that conversation, next past, next future, when the next future comes, the brain has all the past information and has one information that you know last time it was not so hard conversation, you did something different. So it's possible to be different. So you need to give different stories to your brain so it can it can act differently and differently, but you need to introduce a different thing. If you just let the brain to function on automation, you are going to just get the same things. So this is a the question is like, what can we introduce in the present that will bring a different type of data point than the data points we had before? So for us to see something else is different, possible, like it's just possible to have a different conversation, it's just possible to calm down and not emotionally engage with this person that usually drives us crazy. So, but again, that's a decision that each of us can make or not make. And that's uh again the coming back to the small thing. Okay, the ask is not to become a friend with this person who annoys you for so many years. The task is can you today, in this conversation, talking on the phone or face-to-face, can you just approach it from a different perspective? Can you try something different? Can you say different words? It's just one meeting one day. Can you start there? Versus saying, oof, no, forever, until the day I die, this person is going to be a difficult person. And there is no way I can handle this person. That's one option, uh and that's an easy option. The hard one is to try something different with the hope that the future will be different, and that relation can be a little easier in the future. So, all of the things about how the brain works, I find them very simple and useful to understand.
SPEAKER_00I've often heard, and I'm sure as a coach, you've used this too, where whenever, like, let's say this is this difficult person, or you know, this situation, uh, because it involves with this this person, it's gonna be difficult. Or I've tried this in the past and it hasn't worked. That a simple reframe to notice what's happening inside of your own mind is yeah, but what else might be true? What else am I missing? What else am I not seeing? What else could be happening that I'm not aware of? Like, what else could be? Be true. It turns your brain into a curiosity state where you start to notice and explore rather than making those determinative statements. You found that powerful? Like what else could be true?
SPEAKER_01Yes. And hard part of all of this, and yeah, here we are talking about theoretical, but the hard part is that in the heat of the moment, yeah, very hard. Like, oh, it's so easy to just go there, like, ah, annoying person. Yeah. Um, and that's where like a lot of practice, uh, pre-worth tense, like make sure what words, what can happen, what option, okay. If he says that, how are you going to de-escalate? Like thinking again, you need to put some work. And one of the things that I believe a lot in is uh some visual cues. So I have four visual cues here on my monitor about things that I'm working on, and I need to remember to become better at. So whenever one of my triggers happen, I look at my post-it, I'm like, okay, okay, like let's let's try something different. Let's not go there. We need all the help we can get because that moment of decision, do I go as I always did, or do I do something different? Sounds easy in theory. It's very hard in practice. In the in the when you again when you are in a moment, the the reasoning goes off the window, and it's it's the habits and the emotions take control.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So possibility thinking, inner possibilities is really about your mindset. What else could be true? What else am I not seeing? How am I limiting my own thinking? And so starting with an internal awareness of maybe blockers that you're putting up. And then you talk about relational possibilities. So, what are those?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let me just, I'm not going to go into detail, but just a list on the inner other couple of very simple things anybody can do. Uh one is uh clarify your strengths. Okay. So, what do you actually have at your disposal disposal that it's already there? Like you don't have to work for, it's it's already there. So a lot of things we can talk there, but I would encourage anybody, not just say, Yeah, I kind of know my strengths. No, no, actually think about it. And if I wake you up at 2 a.m. and I say, hey, what are your strengths? You need to be able to tell me your strengths at 2 a.m. Similar with the values. So, what are your values? What are your non-negotiables? What is your north star? Like, again, this type of thing sounds easy to do. I know from my own uh me doing them. It took it took me a second, and I kind of know what they are and how to work with them. So, again, think about your values and the same. Like make sure that they are the real values and they're not somebody else's values, they're not like values that just look good on paper. So they're really non-negotiable. And the last thing on the inner side, I would say the words. And we already kind of touched a little on that, but the words we are using, like, can we pay more attention to those words? Because there is a lot of emotional charge with the words that we choose, or we can use choose more neutral words or more empowering words. So just small tricks like that can go a long way. So lots of things on the inner side, and it's kind of useless to do anything else if you don't do this type of work first. Like that's a kind of the foundation. The relational one, it's what we do together with other people. So, how we uh connect, how we communicate, how we influence, how we negotiate, how we interact, how we uh have a network, build a network, nurture a network, anything we can do together with other people. So I would say on the networking side, on the building relationship, building connections. Let me start by saying that I think we can do a lot of things by ourselves. And I'm an introvert and I'm like, oof, just with by myself. I can, I can, I don't need anybody.
SPEAKER_00Can I do this by myself? I mean, I really want to do this by myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get it. Yeah, so I don't think it's just necessarily an introvert, extrovert thing. It's I mean the other personality traits, but I fundamentally I'm fine. Like I don't need people, I can function in my head, I can self-sufficient, I can figure things out. But even me, the introvert, I know that life can be easier if we have other people who can help, other people who can bounce ideas, other people that we can observe firsthand or secondhand. And I'm like, why you wouldn't want an easier life? Why you want the hard life? And this is again coming back to what we said earlier. Like, many smart people go in this trap, also, like, oh, I'm smart. I should be able to figure it out myself. Oof, again, you might, you could, but why would you if there is an easier path? So that's what I'm also encouraging, especially either the introverts or the stubborn people that think that they can do it by themselves. Okay, just try it, like just get some exposure. Uh okay, if you don't like it, you don't like it. But I promise you there is a higher probability that you are going to see some advantages of being in connection and in relation with other people. Um, and for the introverts, no excuse. Uh, one-on-one is networking. You can network one-on-one. You don't have to go to a conference. Right. Really coming back to there is no excuse. Like, if if you want something, there is no excuse for you not to find a way forward. Having other people, that's an easy way, easier way. Might not be easy, but might be easier.
SPEAKER_00So, what conversations or like conversation or conversations are people avoiding that might actually be a doorway to a possibility? Like, what is a conversation that you've seen people avoid when really having that conversation could lead them to a possibility?
SPEAKER_01Uh, the first one that popped in my mind is a work-related conversation. Uh, it's probably a classical conversation about a low performer. So many times managers avoid having that conversation with somebody who is not doing their job. Uh again, it's a personality trait. I would say not many managers, managers who are more there, it's a personality trait to be more avoidant and more pleasing.
SPEAKER_00I think there's a actually, I think there's a lot of leaders who avoid having that conversation, Arena. They they kick the can, kick the can, kick the can. And then it comes to where, you know, we can we can no longer ignore it. So I because I have conversations with leaders all the time who nope aren't having those.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I know that there is a personality trait actually of a variable when people uh are on different places on this. And I, for example, I'm very low on this. I don't need the um, I'm not an agreeable person. I don't need to be liked by other people. I can give it a message as it is. No, so I don't have this problem. I know I always I I had the opposite problem. I had to package a little more the message. But I had no problem delivering the message, but I know there are people on the other scale where like it's very hard for them to deliver the message out, packaging it even too much. Sometimes they even think that, oh, but I said it. No, you said it so packaged that nobody understood anything. So um, so on that, coming back to your answer, like that is a lose, lose, lose situation. First of all, the biggest loser is a person. They are not knowing, they have no chance. We are not giving them a chance to actually their behavior. Uh, they have no awareness, no opportunities, and they are going to be so surprised if and when one day somebody is going to tell them that. We are basically robbing them for years sometimes of opportunities for them to become better at who they are and what they do, because nobody gives them that message. Of course, now we can say self-awareness. What about you, you person being self-aware? Well, that's a bonus, but we saw it and we did not say anything. So we are at fault there more than the person is. So we are doing a big disservice. We are like, really, it's it's a it's sad that what we do to these people that we are not telling them sooner what we see. It's a big lose for the manager. Like, they're not a good manager, fundamentally. They don't know how to do a basic managerial skill. And they are not going to be successful as a manager if they continue like that. It's a lose for the organization. And now we have two incompetent people: the person with a problem and the manager who is incompetent. And like, how how this organization could have been much better if both of them would have been in a better place. So coming back to the potential here, the possibilities for all three of them to be winners in all of this. No, like if we say it sooner, the person has a chance to do something sooner, the manager shows that they have some courage. Sometimes it might take courage to open your mouth and say it. You grow as a manager, you become better, and the company also can benefit from both of these people doing their jobs a little better. So, again, we can transform a lose-lose-lose situation and win-win-win just by somebody opening the mouth and saying something when they see something.
SPEAKER_00I'm curious your thoughts on someone who might be saying, okay, and I've had that conversation and it didn't go anywhere. Where where I'm interested you just speak into is that how there I believe there are times where we have the conversation because we know we should, but we've already, we're already expecting it to go sideways or it not to be received well. And I'm curious if that prophetic mindset limits the ability of truly what might be possible in the conversation and in the person. So we're so convinced that I'm gonna talk to Irina and it's not gonna get anywhere because I've done it in the past and and she never responds and or she just blows up and it's insulting, but I'm gonna do it because I know I should. That you've already like once again, you're you are coming at it from a limiting perspective instead of saying, like, what might be possible in this conversation, and I'm already limiting how this person could potentially respond because I'm going into it convinced that this is how this is how they're gonna be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, coming back to what we're saying earlier, if you just do the same thing, you're going to see the same result. So you do need to do something different. If you just expect what you expect, you're going to get what you expect. It's as simple as that. So, how can you see something different if you are not going to do anything different? How you want this person to behave different if you're not going to behave different? And what you are, uh, this example you are bringing is a very common example. I have it many times with my client. They say, I tried. I try many times. Okay, how many times? Four times. Okay. So let's try one more time differently. But I don't know how. I don't know. You know, I don't see anything. There is no other way. I'm like, come on, I promise you, there is one, there is other things. There's always another way. So are the only question is, are you willing to give it one more try? Are you willing to uh again and the courage and the discomfort and the effort and the time to try differently? Also, it's not like you try something once differently and the world is going to change. Right. You don't need, like, especially again, how you it was hard for you to say something different, to do something different, to change your behavior. Imagine for this person that you are going to give feedback, it's going to be hard for them to change and to do something different. So both of you now are engaging in a hopefully mutual agreed effort because you need to show up keeping maybe maybe more clear, maybe more structured. I don't know what you need to do to reason differently with that person, maybe more supportive, I don't know. Whatever you need to do different, more better. But also, this person needs some support to become to do something more better than self. So is it hard for you? It's going to be hard for them. So what you are the manager, again, you need to help both parties in this type of situation. So yeah, it's going to be amounts and months of work.
SPEAKER_00It's not going to be just one meeting. I love asking yourself the question uh I willing to give it one more try? And maybe another way to frame it is, is it important that I give it one more try? And by try, not just, well, check the box, I tried, but that I tried truly tried in a different way. I thought about what might be possible. I tried a different approach. I tried a different, whatever the thing is, whether it's a conversation with someone, whether it's an attempt at something, am I willing to give it one more try? Is it important that I give it one more try? And if the answer is yes, then let me truly think in a possibility way what might be possible. I love that. Um, Arena, what's the last one? Explain to us process possibilities. Yes. So we had inner possibilities, relational possibilities. What's process possibilities?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so those are more uh there are some uh ideas that have more structure built into them. So that's more like one to three. Uh, first you do this, then you do this, and you do this. So there are some steps. Uh maybe the one that I will mention for now is uh one that I call the time continuum. And that this idea that there are things that you can do before, during and after an event, before during and after a hard conversation, before during and after an outcome. So many times people, and and this is a cycle. This is not just before during after and stop. It's like it can rotate forever if you want it. Many times people go reach the after moment, like the after of a difficult conversation, or after after they had a failure, the after after something went wrong, and they're like, oops, end of the world, it's done, no, no return, you know, like uh the world is the way it is now. I cannot change anything anymore. And I'm like, oof, come on. When is the next opportunity for you to do something? Go to the before the next opportunity, prepare better for that before opportunity, go into the during next opportunity and try to do something better, and then reflect a little after what is different, and then go and do the circle many times. And this is something that works. I mean, uh, one uh client I had that uh I keep giving you an example because he was amazing working through all of this. He came to me in one of these after moments, you know. He uh let his emotions get the best of him, and he kind of blew up in some meetings. So he was now in this after, like, oof, how do I turn this around? Like everybody now thinks about me this. Like, yeah, I it's done, you know. And we had to do some self-reflection. What actually happened? Is it as bad as you think? Let me go and talk with the people, see what they think actually. Like, um, let's see what we can do in this after stage that can be useful to you. Uh, in this after stage, also, we went and we uh learned about his values and like what's important to you, like coming back to like why doing the work? Like asking yourself, am I willing to do this one more try? So, one of his values was freedom. And for him was, I want to be free of this emotional roller coaster that I feel inside of me. So that was his why, why he's willing to go and try again and again to get better and better at the cycle of always having meeting, blowing up, meeting, blowing up. Like, how can we do it differently? And he was like, Oh, I I want this to be over because I want to be a free person and in control of my behavior. So that was one big why for him. And then we went back, okay, let's not do before. When is the next time when you might have a big important conversation? Somebody that you think might think might escalate, let's prepare. What are you going to say? How are you going to say it? What techniques, what can you do? Like again, I mentioned my post-it. Like he had hit his post-it, and his post-it said he wrote a post-it for himself to have it for during the meeting. His post-it said, is it worth it? So then when he went to the meeting and he applied all the techniques, like either detach or either ask more questions, set of statements, or everything that we we learned for him to do. One of them was a post-like, does it worth it? Like, should I? Should I just go for it or should I just calm down and let it go? So, and again, you have the meeting and you go and reflect, and then you go back to the next meeting and you do this. Again, none of this are one and done type of things. Because the brain, again, the poor brain, it needs so much repetition to get the message. We cannot just expect the brain to hear it once and like, yeah, no, cut it. Again, the brain, things are hard for the brain. And the more we do it, the easier it will become. And again, small steps, small steps and a lot of repetition. That's how you make this brain to allow you to do something different.
SPEAKER_00So, if someone was listening to this, what is one thing that they could do today to become a possibility thinker?
SPEAKER_01Trust yourself a little more. Just trust yourself. And when you hear that thing, like, no, not possible, there is nothing, I don't know. Give yourself a chance. So, this is again, because that's the hardest moment. If you don't give yourself a chance, you cannot see anything. So that separation moment between this is how always been, and can it be different? Like, can you trust in your yourself a little more? And this is like if you do some of the inner, if you know your strengths, if you know your values, you already have a little solid ground, like you're not like a leaf in the wind. You are somebody and you know some things, and you did hard things in the past. So if you give yourself a chance uh not to give up without even trying, things will happen. And if nothing else, make a post-it. Just make a post-it, and that can be your first step. And just in the spirit of self-disclosure, I want to show you my post-it. And if anybody listening wants to send me a picture of their post-its, happy. But this is one of my post-its. Slow down. Something I'm working on, and I have this post-it here for five years. I'm not ready to let it go. I still need it. So, this is how hard the work is. Again, realistic expectations for everybody, but if you want it, you need to start from somewhere. And when start with the post-it.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate the encouragement to give yourself a chance, meaning like trust the fact that you you know, trust the fact that you have more options inside of you than you think, and you're not giving yourself probably enough credit, grace, space, whatever it is, to explore what might be there. The reality is you have to know yourself, and that's hard, and that's the hard work. And it's something that I hear over and over and over again from the people, folks that come on the show is you've got to build a practice around it. You can't expect this way of thinking if you want to be a possibility thinker, and whether you want it for yourself or your team or in your home or like we're human thinking and behavior is so, oh, it's so messy and it's so hard, and we don't change overnight. And if you don't practice it, you won't become it. And so I really appreciate the encouragement to give yourself credit. You have more answers inside of you than you think. And you have to build a practice around this. And even something like, you know, I have my sticky notes, I have my reminders, I have the things I have in my Microsoft OneNote, my daily mantras of the things that are important to me, what I'm focusing on, what do I need to release? Like these are things, there are some, to your point, that I hold on to that I've had for years, and there are some that are new given in this season of life. So I'm really grateful for all of that wisdom. And so, last question if someone were to remember one thing from this conversation, what would it be? What would you want them to take away?
SPEAKER_01I will go back to what they can do by themselves on self-empowerment. So maybe this is part of your post-it. If other people did it, you can do it too. If there is a human in this universe who did the thing that you want to do, come on, you can do it too. There is a way. It means that there is a path, there is a way. Not only that, but again, many people want what you want. Not like you, oh, you're the first one in the universe who wants that. No, many people want it. And they found maybe different ways. So I promise you, I promise you, there are more than one way. If another human did it, you can do it too. Oh, everybody does it, I cannot. No, no, no. If some there is proof, there is proof that what you want is possible in this universe, you just matter of time and effort for it to figure out.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love that. If there's a human on this planet who has done it, it means you are able to do it too. Your path to it might look differently, the end result may look different. But if it's been if there's someone that's done it, you absolutely can do it too. And I I so love that piece of encouragement. Irina, thank you for being on the show, my friend.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for the energy and for a great question, great conversation.
SPEAKER_00Y'all, thanks for spending some of your day with me. I'm really grateful for you. And I hope this episode sparked something new for you in the way that you think about your life, your work, your leadership, and your relationships. If it did, I'd love if you would give us a review on whatever platform that you listen to the podcast. And share this episode with anyone that you think might be interested in listening to that. Finally, are there any other topics that you want to see covered in future episodes? You can connect with me on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Instagram, all under the handle TV Sandwich. Keep shining, beautiful lights. And I'll see you next time.