The Shape of a Great Conversation (And What Destroys It) Part Two - 021

Most people leave great conversations to chance. Elite Business Connectors don't. In this episode, Bryan breaks down the four-phase arc that gives every conversation its shape — and the five patterns that destroy even the best setups. 

This is Part 2 of the Conversation Blueprint series and the complete framework for building conversations that don't just exchange information but create genuine connection.

The Four Phases of the Conversation Arc:

1. Opening — The first minute sets the tone for everything. Pre-read the room with the 5 before the 5, or use observational intelligence to acknowledge and ask. Never leave the opening to small talk chance.
2. Exploration — This is where you mine for the topic that clicks. Move intentionally from small talk to tailored talk to deep talk, and be willing to topic-switch for the health of the conversation.
3. Resolution — Stop commenting and start asking. Strategic questions guide the conversation to greater depth and keep both people genuinely involved.
4. Closing — Don't let the conversation fade out. Highlight what stood out, summarize what was covered, and land on a clear and specific next step.

The Five Conversation Killers:

1. Talking Too Much — The Conversational Narcissist dominates air time and never realizes it. If you're doing all the talking, you're not having a conversation — you're delivering a monologue.
2. Interrupting — Power-oriented interruptions gain the room and lose the relationship. Until you know the person, assume they want to finish their thought.
3. Half-Listening — Distracted listening is neurologically detectable. The person across from you knows when you're mentally composing your next line instead of hearing theirs.
4. One-Upping — You think you're relating. They know you're competing. Resist the urge and ask a question about their story instead.
5. Shallowness — Some people stay shallow by habit, some by choice. Use 2QM — ask a second question — to invite them deeper. 

Timestamps:

• 0:00 — Can Great Talks Be Engineered
• 2:02 — The Conversation Arc Blueprint
• 4:02 — Open Strong Without Small Talk
• 6:30 — Explore Topics Until Something Clicks
• 9:18 — Resolve The Topic With Questions
• 11:14 — Close With Highlights And Next Steps
• 13:35 — Free Resource On Better Questions
• 14:36 — Five Conversation Killers To Avoid
• 23:21 — Go Deeper For Real Connection

Resources to Use:

The System Elite Connectors Use to Remember Names

If you’re serious about improving your business communication skills, I created a step-by-step system you can download right now — absolutely free.

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30 Connection Questions for Stronger Business Conversations

This is a proven question set to improve every conversation in the 1st 5 minutes.

👉 Grab it here: 

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• 1st 5 Minutes Book

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Transcript

Can Great Talks Be Engineered

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Have you ever thought about what makes a good conversation actually good? Does it just happen by chance or can it be engineered? My answer? Yes. It's both, but most people rely only on it happening by chance. But if you want to learn how to engineer it, well, how do you do that? Last episode, I gave the foundation, the four conditions that have to exist before a great conversation is even possible. And then the seven elements that drive the quality of everything inside of that conversation. But here's what I didn't tell you, at least yet. Knowing the elements is not enough, because a great conversation is not a checklist. It's not a set of moves you execute in sequence. It's actually a shape. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And research going back decades shows that when you honor that shape, the flow, conversations now go somewhere. But when you violate it, they don't, no matter how good your elements are. I also didn't tell you about the five things that will destroy a conversation, even when everything else is in place. Five patterns that are so common, so reflexive, that most people do them without even realizing it. And I didn't tell you what it looks like when a conversation reaches its full potential, when both people leave having changed, not just exchanged, changed. Feels like I've been out holding a ton out on you right now, huh? Well, that's what part two is about. And it all connects back to your first five minutes. You win? Let's get after it. Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast, where we believe how you interact with people will make or break your opportunity to develop a real and influential connection. Now, whether you're a rookie or a rock star with people, you're in the right place right now. Let's do this. Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Buckley, husband of one, father of five, and on a mission to help you develop, deepen, and master your business communication skills. And my promise to you is if you listen and subscribe, I'll bring my best content and energy every single week to help you get better at communicating and connecting in a business environment. So here's today's big idea. A great conversation has a very specific flow, an arc, if you will, that when you follow it and is not disrupted, sets you up for a great conversation. And if you haven't listened to episode 20 just yet, go back and start there. Today builds directly on the foundation and seven elements that we covered in part one. Everything in this episode assumes you have that architecture in place. Plus, I'm running a special, buy the last free episode. Get this episode for absolutely free. Free 99. I know I give and I give. But today we're covering the arc of a conversation, the five patterns that destroy even the best setups, and what it actually looks like when you both individually and corporately together leave changed. So let's unpack this content you can begin to use immediately. Part one in this episode is the arc of the conversation. Every effective conversation has a shape. It's not random. Research conversation analysts, going back to Shegloff and Sachs' foundational work, shows the conversation has identified a sequential architecture that both participants navigate together, consciously or not. And when you violate that arc, the other person registers it neurologically, behaviorally, even if they can't name it. And the arc has four phases, and every one of them maps out into your first five minutes. Think of the arc as the natural flow in a conversation. It's organic and found in most conversations, especially if you know how to look for it. Phase one. The opening. The opening is the most studied phase of conversation in linguistics. The neuroscience of openings is decisive about timing. Princeton psychologists Willis and Todoroff found that it takes one-tenth of a second to form an initial impression of someone. One tenth. And that impression is very sticky. It colors everything that follows, which makes the opening all the more important in a conversation. And every conversation has an opening. And often the word that best describes the opening is awkward. We're both trying to do two things in this opening. Soak each other in, your look, your energy, your vibe, and figure each other out. Is this conversation going to go somewhere? And if so, where? And all too often we leave the opening to chance. Low-hanging small talk fruit, the weather, local sports teams, nice office. This is the absolute last resort. Never again after this episode. So let's try another option to catch someone's attention quickly. I teach to pre-read the room and read the room. Pre-read the room by taking the five before the five to find the five, which means taking five minutes before the first five minutes to find five connection points. Now, I'm not getting into the weeds on this one right now, but circle back to episode 16 called How to Creatively Research Someone Before a Business Conversation for More Detail. The point is, you're coming into your opening, aka the first minute, with an LTP, lead talking point that says, look at you, not look at me. We can engineer this move if we know in advance who we'll be saying in the meeting. But you're asking, well, what if I can't do that? And if we can't pre-read the room, we leverage OQ, observational intelligence, so we can scan the room, the environment, and find something to comment on that is personal to that person, not something random. We want to acknowledge, then ask. Acknowledge what you observed that could be important to them, then ask a specific question about it to engage them immediately in the conversation. Nothing to do with the weather or the office or whatever. Acknowledge, then ask. Practical terms. You can nail the opening by leveraging your preparation and observation skills. And this will create a natural flow and set the tone to get you off to a good conversation. Phase one opening. Phase two, the exploration. Now, this exploration phase is where you seek common ground on what to talk about. If it's left a chance, it could go nowhere and nowhere fast. Not ideal. If you're like me, you've been through more than enough of these types of floundering explorations. In the last episode, we talked about intent. Where do you intend the conversation to go? Not an agenda per se, but a direction you want to explore and hopefully end up. Often I start there and let the other person know early on that I'd like to touch on a certain subject at some point in the conversation. Now, it may be the bridge right there to begin on that topic, or it may just feel too early in the conversation and make that leap, but at least it's on their radar and gives them hope we have something tangible to talk about. Now, other times, I know where I want the conversation to go, i.e., intent, and will lead the direction by my questions. In the book Talk, by author and associate professor at Harvard Business School, Alison Woodbrooks, she talks about the topic of topics. And in there, she proposes the topic pyramid. Topics at the base is small talk, topics any group can talk about. Then discuss in the middle of the pyramid, Taylor talk, topics many groups could discuss, but not all. Then at the top of the pyramid is deep talk, topics that only this group can discuss. Highly recommend the book. Now, good conversationalists will be fully aware of if and how the current topic is landing. Is it resonating with the other person or apparent that they really don't have any interest or experience in the topic and would like it to go somewhere else? She talks about mining for gold, which means finding a topic that clicks with the other person, and this happens in this exploration phase. Now, a good conversationalist will make a decision to keep exploring the current topic, but in a different way, or what Brooks calls topic switching. This is being willing to go in a different direction for the health of the conversation. And this is both a science and an art. If you find a good conversationalist doing this, it is so natural and so productive and so beneficial to the health of the conversation. So, in practical terms, be the person who is so locked into the conversation from the start that you're willing and able to explore different topics so you can move from small talk, the transition talk, with the ultimate goal of finding deep talk. Now, you're the topic engineer, and taking responsibility to explore during this phase of the conversation arc is critical. So phase one, the opening. Phase two, the exploration, finding the right topic. Phase three, well, that's the resolution. And this is where the arc moves from exploring to deciding on a topic that's resonating with all those that are involved. This is finding a topic that can go somewhere. And you know when that happens, people become engaged and locked into the conversation. And this is a critical phase because often we what I call comment ourselves through a conversation. And it could dominate airtime right now, which excludes the other person. You make a comment, maybe a long comment, and then they respond with a comment, and then you respond back with a comment, back and forth. Ever had that conversation? Well, hopefully from now on, you're aware of that, and it's not going to be you. Because this is where the skill of asking questions is key. You're involving the other person to engage in the conversation with a goal of taking them deeper to learn more about their perspective on this new specific topic that you can develop together. You're intentionally guiding the conversation to where not only you want the conversation to go, but to a possible and hopeful deeper level. My father had a quote, it fits perfectly here. He who asks the questions controls the conversation. Now, he didn't mean it in a manipulative, controlling way, but if your questions are strategic, you can move the conversation from up the pyramid of small talk to transition talk into deeper talk. And this, my friends, is a rare skill. But one you want to achieve, and that is those of a business elite connector. Practical terms. Be aware and into not only about the conversation, but if it's including everyone around there, and more importantly, what you would you like it to take to go just a little bit deeper? You can guide into different directions and depth by how? Your questions. Why? Because he who asks the questions controls the conversation. We move into the last phase, phase four, the closing. Sheglov and Sachs Research is one of the most cited papers in conversation analysis, and its core to finding is simple as this. Conversations just don't end. They are brought to a close through a structured cooperative sequence. A strong closing, a clear summary, agreed-upon next steps, and a genuine and complete goodbye anchors the memory of the conversation, whether it's in the first five minutes or whether it's a 30-minute conversation. An abrupt or incomplete close leaves the other person with a feeling of loose ends. And that feeling is what they carry into the next interaction, whether they realize it or not. It's left vague, generic, and nebulous with really no clear action steps. It sounds like, yeah, good to see you. We should follow up. Thanks for coming by. I'll circle back in a few weeks. Eh, okay. But now you. Your goal now is the following highlights. Highlight the highlights, as I like to say. Meaning, what did you enjoy? What stood out? Let them know what you learned from them. Huge kudos go from that direction when you let them know the value that you found in the conversation with them. Try it, find out, you'll see them light up. Then summarize. Well, we discussed X and Y and need to circle back on Z. And then a clear action step. I'll be emailing you the meaning note or proposal or following up on the action item we just decided upon. So practical terms. The first five minutes has a micro close, the end of minute five. The alignment check signals that the setup is complete and the real meaning is now beginning, at least in their eyes. The last moment of those five minutes is what the other person carries into everything that follows. So if you can nail your first five minutes, create that ability for a good conversation, you have the opportunity to circle back later in the conversation and take the conversation deeper. So we just learn the phases of the arc in a conversation: the opening, the explanation, the resolution, the closing. But we also need to know what kills a conversation so we can avoid them to develop a good conversation. And we'll explore those after this short break. We've been talking about the anatomy of an effective conversation, the conditions, the elements, the off. But here's the thing: all that architecture needs fuel. And the fuel is found in great questions. Not filler questions, not Uber asking questions, genuine curiosity-driven questions. It opens people up and move the conversation from service level. I put together a free resource, specifically for the connection questions. These are field testing questions. Designed to work in the first five minutes of any business publication. It's to create connection, surface real information, and set you apart from every other professional in the room. And more importantly, you're gonna have it. Grab it in the show notes right now. These questions alone will change the quality of your next conversation. Don't wait until the end of this episode. Grab it right now. I'll be right here waiting for you for your return. This second part is really important if you're wanting to learn how to develop good conversation because you need to know what could derail a conversation at any point. So part two is we're gonna break down what makes a great conversation have killers that you need to avoid. Understanding what breaks conversations is just as instructive as understanding what builds them. And there are five patterns that consistently destroy the quality and outcome of a business conversation. And I want to name them directly because most people aren't doing at least one of these without realizing it. Conversation killer number one, talking too much. The quickest way to kill off a conversation is not letting the other person talk enough. You become what I call the conversational narcissist, where everything about the conversation is, well, about you. So many times, I just want to be blunt and tell the other person to breathe, shut up. I mean, uh, of course, I mean to be quiet, and let me or someone else have a turn talking. The sad reality is most people are either ignorant, meaning they're unaware they're talking too much, or arrogant and simply don't care if they're talking too much because they feel what they have to say is simply more important. Not a fan of that guy. Ironically, the person talking too much thinks this is a good conversation, but isn't even considering what the other person thinks. And it's usually simple and obvious. I'd like to talk to the first five minutes, focus. If you get this wrong here, it rarely gets back on tracks. If you're ignorant or arrogant in the first five, it's a guarantee you'll do it in the next 25 or 55 minutes. Congratulations. You've killed any potential for a good conversation. Conversation on killer number two. Interrupting. You know this guy. He can't even wait for you to finish your sentence to talk and doesn't have the self-control or the patience to wait. He just runs right over whatever you're saying. And I like to say there, come on, man. In my research, I learned that not all interruptions are equal. And this fascinated me. Research distinguishes between cooperative interruptions, which build on what someone is saying, and power-oriented interruptions, which seize the floor or redirect. Power-oriented interruptions are the ones that damage. They take control and say, I'm more important than you. Research by Sally Fowley at the University of Baltimore found this exact trade-off. The person who interrupts may gain the appearance of authority and simultaneously lose any likability. You get the room and lose the relationship. Is that worth the cost? Stanford linguist Catherine Hilton found that people identify as either low-intensity speakers or that they're the ones who experience any simultaneous talk as rude, or high-intensity speakers who read it as engagement. The point, until you know which kind you're talking to, assume low intensity. And the key is how your interrupting is being interpreted by the other person. A words of the wise, if you just met the person in the first few minutes, assume they don't want to be interrupted and haven't earned that right at least yet. First five minutes, focus. Your goal is to leverage OQ, observational intelligence, to determine how any potential interruption on your part is being received. Are you even doing it? This is critical, but also subjective. So my recommendation: if you interrupt someone and you do it more than you realize, especially if you pay attention, acknowledge it and just simply say, I'm sorry I interrupted you. Then ask if you can continue or offer to wait until their part is done. This shows emotional intelligence and curiosity. Conversation killer number three: half-listening. This is distracted listening and not nearly polite at all. It's actually rude and very neurologically detectable. Speakers can sense the quality of attention they're receiving, and it directly alters what they're willing to share. A meta-analysis of nearly 30,000 participants confirmed. Quality of listening predicts levels of trust and disclosure. The more common form of distracted listening in a first five minutes business meeting is mental pitch preparation. This means you're composing your next statement while the other person is still talking. You receive a partial message because you're partially there and respond to a partial version of what was actually said. Time and attention are very important to me personally, especially if I'm seeking to make a connection and create an environment around me and an arc for good conversation, everything we've learned. So I'll call it out. Not rudely, but clearly. I'll say something like, But it seems like something else has your attention. Is there a better time to revisit this conversation? Or do you want me to just pause and let you finish what you're doing? Love me some awkward moments on their part, which I just created. Actually, they did. They'll often deny or justify it, but just watch. They'll be locked in and justify no longer, and they're going to be active, listening participants and not distracted again. This can work for your advantage if you handle it properly. First five minutes, focus. Don't be the distracted half-listener. You be fully present. Be engaged, be the model who sets the tone, the entire conversation, but specifically in the first five minutes. Make them want to pay attention to you because you're paying attention to them. Conversation killer number four, one-upping. One-upping is one of the most reliably relationship-damaging conversational behaviors and one of the least consciously performed. Its psychological root is Fessinger's social comparison theory, which says this we determine self-worth by comparing ourselves to others. And when someone's story threatens our relative standing, we move to restore it through conversational dominance. When does that happen? With one-upping. One-upping starts out small, but it can easily escalate, especially with guys. And you know that guy. He can't wait for you to finish your story so he can tell a better one. The sad part is he's thinking he's relating and connecting when he's actually just competing and not connecting with you or anybody else. It's amazing when you start looking for this conversational killer. You'll find it first in the other person, but if you're truly perceptive, you'll begin catching yourself doing it. If you do, self-correct and put the focus back on the other person. How? Right back to asking a question about their story or point that you can easily one up, and this time you choose not to. First five minutes, focus. One-upping is most tempting kind of in minute two. When you're establishing credibility and moving into those middle three minutes, resist it. Demonstrating their experience is more interesting to you than you own is what actually builds the credibility that you're seeking. Last conversational killer, killer number five shallowness. The reality is many people keep the conversation at a very basic shallow level, the bottom of the pyramid. It may be unintentionally just testing the waters out, or it may be on purpose and they're just choosing to be guarded. It's their choice, but I'm going to make them work a little bit to stay in the shallow part of the conversational pool with their floaties. How? I were to find a topic. Remember topic switching by the author Allison Brooks in her book Talk? This person, they want to talk about and they can join into the conversation if it's something that is a value to them and they could have input. The key here is to QM. Asking a second question, two question minimum, to have them wade just a little deeper into the pool. Make them think about their answer. If you ask them a genuine curiosity question, chances are most will begin to open up. Not everybody, but most, especially with your efforts. Your interest in your persistence creates a safe environment for them to take a step into the sh out of the shallow waters. Help them by encouraging them to share more. But on the other hand, be okay if the person just wants to remain shallow. Accept it in the conversation, lower your expectations, and make the best of whatever the conversation can still offer. First five minutes, focus. You'll know, usually in the first two minutes or so, if someone prefers the shallow waters. Now, again, they may be testing you to find out if you're safe, if you're really interested in them. So keep trying within the first five minutes to move them just a little deeper in the conversation. So let's get practical. We understand the arc or the flow of the conversation, moving from the opening into the exploration of topics, then into the resolution, the decision of what topic to talk about, and then into the closing of the conversation. But we also discuss conversational killers that fight us from going deeper in a conversation, which is talking too much, interrupting, half-listening, one-upping, and shallowness. My challenge is for you to create a desire to be a good conversationalist who understands all these moving parts in a conversation so you can find depth with the other person. And why make this effort? To make a genuine connection. And isn't that the whole point in the end to connect with another person? The three focus areas of an elite business connector are found in my book titled by that same name. Communication, which is all about me and what I say, conversation, which is all about you or me, then connection, which is all about us. And these last two episodes, we've drilled down on the focus area of conversation, but I wanted to tie it back to the ultimate goal of connecting with the other person. Good conversations often take work. Effort is required. Effort is finding the right topic, keeping people engaged, creating a safe environment that encourages going deeper in the conversation. And the deepest, most productive conversations are the ones where both people leave knowing something they didn't know about the topic, about each other, maybe about themselves. That's the real mark of one that worked. Not just a productive exchange, a conversation that was actually transformative. And research on what organizational scholars call transformative dialogue identifies what makes this possible. The principles of the first five minutes. Genuine curiosity, shared understanding of purpose, ongoing checking of whether both people are truly engaged, and the willingness to let the conversation go somewhere, neither person planned. This is what happens when all seven elements are present, when the arc is honored, when the five killers are absent. And I love the moment when the conversation ends, and I'm left wanting more of that conversation. Can't believe how fast the time flew, the commonalities we had, the thoughts that they presented to me. And I don't want it to stop, and I'm already looking forward to that next conversation. It's possible if we're willing to explore depth in a conversation, and that can start as early as the first five minutes. The conditions you build in that window determine the ceiling of what's possible in the conversation that follows every single time. So let me leave you with three action steps. First one, think through the arc and the flow of your conversation and where you potentially get stuck. Most people often, it's in that exploration of finding topics or willing to topic switch and go in a different direction. Second, determine what conversational killer you have a bad habit of using and kill it. It may be interrupting, it may be half listening. Figure out which one's yours and kill it. And then decide to go deeper in a conversation with the goal of a deeper connection. You're willing to mind through to go that extra step with the goal of a deeper connection. Closing thoughts. Let's be real on two fronts. One is not every conversation will be a good conversation, especially in the first five minutes. But you're setting the tone for a good conversation right now for the rest of the conversation, meaning it's worth the investment. And secondly, some conversations have the potential to go deeper, but not at this moment, possibly due to a shortage of time, or maybe the environment isn't settling for a good conversation, or maybe there's a person in the conversation who is shallow, and then you and somebody else want to go deeper, well, then you know that you can with that other person. Here's what I want you to carry out of these two episodes together. Great conversations, they're not accidents. It's not just chemistry. They're not just luck. They're built condition by condition, element by element, phase by phase, by business professionals who understand the architecture and show up ready to use it. You now have the complete blueprint, the four conditions that have to exist before a great conversation is possible, the seven elements that drive the quality of what happens inside that conversation, the arc that gives it shape and direction so you know where you are in the conversation, but also the five killers to watch out for and eliminate. In a target, the conversation where both people leave connected and a deeper level. This is what elite business connectors do. And that's the premise of this podcast. They don't leave the first five minutes to chance, they build them deliberately. And the conversation that follows is different because of it. Now you have everything you need to do the same. Episode 21, right here, is officially in the books, in and out as usual, and nobody got hurt. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcast so you never miss an episode. If you subscribe, also click on downloads for the past episodes. If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment. Let us know what resonates with you. I read every one and respond. All these episodes' main points and links are found in the show notes. Oh, and don't forget to grab that free resource, 30 Connection Questions for Stronger Business Conversation. The link is in the show notes. And these questions were built for exactly the kind of conversations we're talking about across both episodes. And I'd love to hear from you in general. What was your biggest takeaway from this two-part series? What are you going to change? What challenged you? Let me know. Send me an email at Brian B R Y A N at Brian BuckleySpeaks.com with any questions, comments, ideas. And again, I read and respond to each one. Some of my best episodes and best thoughts come from you as a listener or viewer. Sneak peek, coming up on episode 22. All too often, we underestimate the power of our words. What pops into our minds immediately pops out of our mouths. But words can be used to build up or tear down at any given moment. And most business professionals rarely think through how best to use words, especially in a business conversation, and if they truly want to connect. Personally, I've now want to become someone who uses his words wisely and strategically to create connections quickly because the words I'm intentionally using. In this next episode, we're going to break down two different levels of words and how to use them in every conversation, but especially in the first five minutes to pull people in, develop trust quicker, and build connection. But this episode is officially in the books, In and Out, and Nobody Got Hurt. And as my Chicago Bears chant, good, better, best, never let it rest till your good gets better in the what? Your better gets best. And as my father used to say, thanks for coming. But most of all, thanks for leaving. I'm out. You got this now. Now is your time to do something with this episode. And don't always remember to leverage your first five minutes to build connection, trust, and influence. You got this now.