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How to Gain Clarity When the Business Conversation Begins with Chris Fenning -024

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0:00 | 43:39

What happens after the 1st 5 Minutes — after you finish the last minute in the framework? How do you handle the very first minute of that next conversation?

I found the answer in a great book that unpacks this exact issue. I reached out to the author, asked him to break it down, and he agreed to my master evil demands. Lucky you — because he's today's guest.

Chris Fenning helps professionals master communication at work — experts talking to non-experts, teams presenting to executives, or simply starting any message clearly. His methods are used at Google, JP Morgan, and NATO, and have been featured in the Harvard Business Review. He's the author of multiple award-winning books with over 125,000 copies sold.

0:59 - Meet Chris Fenning 

2:47 - First Five Minutes Meets First Minute 

6:20 - Framing With Topic Intent Point 

13:18 - Examples That Prevent Instant Confusion 

14:42 - Structured Summary Using Goal Problem Solution 

17:03 - Listening Styles And The Analyst Trap 

19:51 - A Cautionary Tale About Bad Framing 

22:00 - Time Check And The Minute Myth 

26:53 - Validation Checkpoint Ability / Availability 

31:41 - How To Stop Ramblers With Questions 

35:21 - Rapid Fire Questions / Final Takeaways 

38:01 - Where To Find Chris And His Books

Chris' Website here

Chris Fenning Books: 

The First Minute - How to Start Conversations That Get Results 

Effective Emails - The Secret to Straightforward Communication at Work 

Effective Meetings  - Great Results. Less Pain. Every Time.



Resources to Use:

The System Elite Connectors Use to Remember Names

If you’re serious about improving your business communication skills, I created a step-by-step system you can download right now — absolutely free.

👉 Grab it here: 


30 Connection Questions for Stronger Business Conversations

This is a proven question set to improve every conversation in the 1st 5 minutes.

👉 Grab it here: 


Buy the 1st 5 Minutes Book:


Follow Me on Social Media:

Cold Open And Setup

SPEAKER_01

What happens after the first five minutes, after you finish the last minute in our framework? How do you handle the very first minute of that next conversation? Well, I found the answer in a great book that unpacks this very issue. So I reached out to the author and asked him if he'd be willing to break this crucial minute down. And he actually agreed to my master evil demands. Are you interested in what he said? Well, lucky you, because he's today's conversation. You in? Let's do this. And it's good. Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast, where we believe how you interact with people will make or break your opportunity to develop a real and influential connection. Now, whether you're a rookie or a rock star with people, you're in the right place right now. Let's do it.

Meet Chris Fenning

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Buckley, husband of one, father of five, and on a mission to help you develop, deepen, and master your business communication skills. And my promise to you is if you listen and subscribe, I'm going to bring my best content and energy to help you get better every single week, communicating and connecting in a business environment. Today is an interview with a subject matter expert. So let's get to know our guest. Chris Fenning helps professionals master their communication at work, whether it's helping experts talk to non-experts, teams talking to executives, or simply being able to start a message clearly. Chris's practical methods are used in organizations like Google, JP Morgan, and NATO, and have appeared in the Harvard Business Review. He is also the author of multiple award-winning books on communication and training that has sold more than 125,000 copies. So let's join this conversation with Chris.

SPEAKER_00

Chris, how are you and where are you? Ah, I am very well. Thank you. I'm surrounded by boxes because I'm soon to be moving house, and I'm in the east coast of the USA in Norfolk, Virginia. Well, it's obvious by your Virginian accent. I mean, you really didn't even know to go there.

SPEAKER_01

I try to hide my deep Tennessee roots. Uh I'm glad that it seems like I'm a low girl. That's awesome. That's awesome. I used to work for an Australian-based company a long time ago, and my one-liner, Chris, was yeah, I work for an Australian-based company, as you can tell by my Chicago Australian accent, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I get that. I get comments like that when people say, Oh, I love your European accent. And my response is great. It's my French Norwegian that's really coming through here as though there's just one accent from Europe.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome. That's awesome.

First Five Minutes Meets First Minute

SPEAKER_01

So one of the synergies with it, I mean, I've read your book years ago. We talked about this before the pre-interview, and it's amazing how we revisit books, how I use the content. But then all of a sudden the first five minutes book came out. As you know, you're you were generous to be able to do a review for me ahead of time, which thank you for that. Yeah. And just the synergy. So let's just talk for a second on just the synergy between my content and your content and then kind of where we're headed. Just your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, I mean, we've got very close titles. So I saw your book and thought, oh, is this some someone who's doing exactly the same thing as me? And uh great. What can I what can I learn? What's different? And then reading your book, and I've read it more than once. It's on my stack of reread books. That's awesome. And the reason is there's your stuff is so simple, but requires repetition to apply it well. And it's so helpful. And so the synergy is I write about the first minute of transactional workplace functional communication, sort of inside the workplace, whether it's with clients or other employees. You cover the first few minutes of meeting somebody new, whether it's networking, whether it's beginning sales, whether you're at a conference and you're not sure how to interact with with others, or you've got a very specific person in mind that you're trying to get into the room with and make a deal. You cover that. And there are, while there's overlaps, they're also very, very different situations. And having a model for each one, it's fantastic. It's so helpful to have a simple framework so that we've got those two different situations covered.

SPEAKER_01

You're exactly right. And I think they are literally yin and yang. And if they can nail the first five minutes, it's going to set them up for a level of comfort to be able to walk into the first minute. So, Chris, give us a 30,000-foot and then we're going to break down your framework. I'm a huge framework guy, so I absolutely love that about your book. So uh just that 30,000-foot view, and then we'll get down into the weeds.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So for anyone who's listening to this and has conversations or emails with other people at work, this is for you. When you start communicating for the first time, you're starting a new conversation, you're sending a new email, we need to get people's attention, get to the point, and get our message across. And we have to do it really quickly. And this book provides a couple of frameworks. They're three-part frameworks, they're very simple. We'll get into them in the discussion today. It provides a couple of frameworks that enable you to do that. And if that all sounds a little abstract, here's how we can make it really concrete. If you've ever been listening to someone talk to you and you've thought one of the following three questions, what are you talking about? Why are you telling me this? And what's your point? If you've thought any one or all three of those, the other person didn't get the first minute right. And the book I wrote solves that problem.

SPEAKER_01

Relist those three questions, because those are money questions that all of us struggle with as far as lots of times we're thinking.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Someone's been talking to you, and it can be it's actually as quick as 30 seconds in, but oh in the worst cases, you're two, three, five minutes into a conversation, and you think to yourself, what are you talking about? Yeah. Why are you telling me this? And what is your point?

SPEAKER_01

So let's break into the three actually you have framing, and that's the first part of that. So let's break into what those three components are. Like you just mentioned them, we've got three of those. So let's palm those out. I really want to get in the weeds on this.

Framing With Topic Intent Point

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So the framework is called framing. And this is how you set up the conversation. After you've been a human, after you've interacted and asked how the kids all weekend was, the moment that you go, Oh, uh Brian, I want to talk to you about, that's the moment this framework kicks in. And the framework has three parts. In the book, it's described as context, intent, and key message. And if anyone's seen my TEDx talk, I changed the language a little bit for topic, intent, and point because it makes a very nice acronym, TIP. Yes. They're the same. So if anyone's thinking, hang on, that's not what's in the book, it's just a slight terminology change. And so those three things, the topic, the intent, and the point, are three things that need to happen in the first 10 to 15 seconds of a conversation. And it's not just because I say that's important. There's real neuroscience and research behind this. And it's because we have those three questions. What are you talking about? What do I do with this? And what's your point? And if you state it almost in a bullet point format, topic, intent, and point, you answer those three questions at a high level. And the recipient's brain knows how to process your message and pays more attention.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. And I love the fact, Chris, that we're talking about literally coming out of the first five minutes and not having that awkward transition on there and framing the conversation of where it's headed to go, what the intent is of that. So let's go a little bit more into the context, intent, and key message. Let's go a little bit deeper onto that. Can you give some examples of that? Where do people struggle with that and kind of go from there?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. So when if I came up to you in the office or I picked up the phone and I called you, I know what I want to talk to you about. So I'm going to let's talk about context or the topic. I know what the conversation is going to be about. It's clear in my mind. You are thinking about literally anything else. You are not going to be thinking about my topic. And so the first thing your brain does is try and work out the what my words relate to. If I came up to you and said, hey, um, so I need to talk to you about the event next week. I might be thinking about the client lunch on Tuesday. You might be thinking about the team meeting on Thursday. It's obvious to me, hey, the event we're going to next week, of course it's the client lunch. But if I've not said that, you're then interpreting everything else I say against the Thursday team meeting, and it won't make sense. You'll be thinking, well, it it like things don't don't connect in your brain, and you end up with that question of what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01

So And your brain's gone, your brain's gone a different direction because you're trying to figure it out, and then I'm losing everything that you're saying because I'm trying to figure out what are you talking about? You're exactly right.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and that you've just described literally what happens inside our brains. We might think we're paying attention. On a subconscious level, our brain is saying, what do I do with this? How do how do I join this together? This doesn't make sense. I'm joining the dots. And then once it once it makes sense, once you realize, oh, oh, you're talking about Tuesday, you have to restart that conversation. Yep. And that is two, three, five wasted minutes for both of you, plus frustration for a conversation that could have been over and moved on, and everybody get gets what they need. So we waste time by missing just that one first statement, five to seven words. Hey, Brian, can I talk to you about next month's budget? Can I talk to you about Project Everest? Can I talk to you about the client meeting on Tuesday? Very simple statement pushes everything else out of your head and lets you know what the rest of our conversation is going to be about. It's a ridiculously short sentence that has an outsized impact on the success of that conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and it's critical too. I mean, like that patterns the first five minutes because we talk about the first minute thing personal and where are you heading in that direction? In this case, right here, we're talking about framing in the first 10 to 15 seconds. So anything more on intent or key message within that first 10 to 15 seconds?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So the intent is almost like an instruction for the recipient. If you've ever been in a conversation and you you think this that second question of, well, what do you want me to do with this? Why are you telling me this? And then at some point later they go, Oh, I've I've got a question for you. You then have to replay all the information that you've got first, and you may have to re rehash some of it. It may change your interpretation of uh of the event. We it's an instruction. Like, what do you intend for the other person to do with the message? And there's a very small number of things we want people to do. We we're asking them a question. So, hey, uh, I'm looking for an answer. I'm giving you an instruction. Um, heads up, you might need to know this, or hey, this is a funny story. We need to make it clear what the other person needs to do with the information so that their brains can actually process it in the right way. And the side effect of that is they pay more attention. So here's an example is hey, Brian, can I talk to you about the uh client meeting next Tuesday? I have a couple of questions for you.

SPEAKER_01

And that's you did the context right there, and then you moved into the attent of the couple questions you have for me, which means that that's why I know we're headed. And then you move into key message. So finish finish the three, the trio of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So it's it's a headline. So the headline is one sentence summary that tells the other person roughly what we're gonna talk about. So hey, can I talk to you about next Tuesday's client meeting? I've got a couple of questions. I'm not sure on who's coming in the venue. You now know roughly what we're gonna talk about. I can then expand into that topic and you're not waiting for that headline. And here's the real-world comparison. Imagine you picked up uh a newspaper or a magazine and you started reading on paragraph seven. If you read from that point onwards, how how long does it take you to work out what the article is about?

SPEAKER_01

That's a great example. Every once in a while, we'll put on an episode on TV and we're like on demand, and we're like, where I don't remember any of this. And we realized that we were like two episodes ahead. For whatever reason, we we got two episodes ahead and we hadn't been part of that those scenes. So who's that character? Why are they doing this?

SPEAKER_00

Where did this guy come from? It's a very similar thing. When we read an article like that, we assess the information based on our understanding of the general topic, on the general headline. So if we read a newspaper article and there's a clear headline, that sets that benchmark for everything else we're going to understand. We evaluate against that. When we don't know the headline, we make it up, or we're it changes as we go through the article, and it's a very different interpretation, a very different experience. And generally we we get it wrong. We make assumptions and have to adjust and have to adjust. So giving a headline helps the other person. It goes back to your point, waste of time.

SPEAKER_01

And everybody's time is valuable. So if we can give them clarity up front, that's the gift.

Examples That Prevent Instant Confusion

SPEAKER_01

So let's contextualize it just for a moment on let's say you're meeting me for the first time, but obviously you came to meet me, let's say you're a sales rep, and there's a reason why you're meeting with it. Obviously, there is, you know, whether you've discovered the problem, well, you actually have, because we talked about that in the first five minutes, you know, identifying the problem and then transitioning to the solution. So take the this right here, the framing, for the example of you're walking into me for the very first time to meet, because there's still an agenda we have just met. Can you contextualize that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. It's a just just to have a little more clarity in this. This is not the very first time we've interacted. There's a clear reason we're there's like a scheduled meeting. This isn't we've just bumped into each other, I've grabbed you. Correct. That's that is the first five-minute stuff and and more. Once we get into that meeting, we've we need to help the other person and ourselves settle into what is that session about? What is this conversation about? And I might say, hey Brian, thanks very much for meeting with me today. I we I know we said we agreed we were going to talk about X because we'd set up the meetings. This is what we're gonna talk about. Um really looking forward to getting your your input and ideas on something. And by the end, I'd like to leave with a better understanding of what's happening in your space. And that's context intent, key message.

SPEAKER_01

Perfect. So that's the first part. And then after Framey, we move into the structured summaries. So why is that next and what's the big picture there?

Structured Summary Using Goal Problem Solution

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, the big picture here is when you have a conversation that's more than just, hey, do you want to go for lunch, which is a very short specific thing, or hey, have you sent me that that report yet? Those are very short conversations. When we're in other types of of conversation where we want to share an idea, propose something, make a request, describe an issue, give a status update, something that is a big topic, we need to be able to summarize it because the recipient is going to be wondering where is this going? What is the point? But they're going to want more detail, but they're also not ready to receive real depth in detail. And so the what comes in the first minute after framing is something called a structured summary, where you give a 20 to 45 second update or summary status of the what the rest of the conversation is. And the approach is called goal problem solution. And I'll I'll give an example to hopefully make this a little clearer. So if we were if we were talking and I'd met, and let's keep this inside the organization for now. You were my manager, I'd got a proposal. What I shouldn't do is start with all the detail of what I think we should do. What I need to do is set the scene and get you ready to hear the rest of my idea. And I do that by saying, hey, Brian, I know that our third quarter target is a 12% growth in this market area. The problem we're facing is another big competitor has just moved in and got one of the biggest contracts. So it's going to be tough for us. Here's what I think we can do. Now, what I did there was I said the goal. The goal is that 12% growth in that market. The problem is other competitor has come in, taken a big client we were after. We've got ground to make up. What I propose is XYZ. I've given you a very condensed version of what the rest of our conversation will be. And what the equivalent is, is I've zoomed out on the map. We're taking a road trip. Imagine you were taking a road trip somewhere and you wanted to see the directions. I could start by saying come out of your driveway, turn left, go to the end of the street, turn right, head towards. That's too much detail. What I need to do first is zoom out, give you that overview, and then we can zoom into the details that matter.

SPEAKER_01

So let's put a pause on this the summary.

Listening Styles And The Analyst Trap

SPEAKER_01

And something I want to circle back, Chris, on something we talked about before when we got on the call here, about the listening aspect of this and what you picked up from the book and how you're wired, and how does this fit into this first minute and how critical that is on the listening? So I want to that's off script here. This is bonus coverage here, sports fans. Unpack that if you would, Chris. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So the thing, what we were talking about earlier was the listening style and the observation style. And there are two great parts that I love about your book. One is the what are the eight different types of listener? Some people are the interrupters, some people are the fully engaged. That's that's the goal. I'm the analyst. My natural tendency when I'm listening is I've got to solve the problem. All right, what am I doing with this? Am I proposing solutions? And it leads to me interjecting. And the way that that ties into this goal problem solution summary is if someone comes to me and they're spending too much time, if they jump right into the solution thing, if they jump right into their idea, if they jump right into the detail, I'm analyzing and trying to work out what the problem is. And I'm gonna want it, I want detail. I d it's not making sense, so I will start asking for detail. And I'm gonna be leaping to the end of a line. Even though I try not to do that, I know it's my natural tendency. So then what happens as a result of doing that? It means that I've made assumptions. I've missed what their actual point is. I'm running in a different direction. I'm not picking up exactly the direction that they wanted. And it's because I don't want to blame the other person, but it's because they didn't set me up as the recipient. If they'd started with, hey Chris, we're trying to achieve this thing, I've got this problem, I want to share my idea with you. I then have enough to be a little more patient because I've got that that high level, but I've got the whole picture, I've got the story. And then I will let them fill in, or I'll be able to ask questions to go deeper into uh into whichever section is more relevant. But I'm not making assumptions. I'm not like trying to fill in those blanks because they've given me a good, clear summary. And we all need this. The key is to do it very, very briefly. Think bullet points rather than 30-word sentences.

SPEAKER_01

That's perfect, Chris. And this is a great example of the importance of the first minute of framing in the structured summary. Because all of a sudden the other person maybe starting to analyze and work on the solution, and it may not even be the problem. And you sent them not only confusion, but now they're trying to solve a problem that's really not even the problem on that. So I just I think it was a perfect time to bring this up because of the aspect of listening on this, and especially if you're not setting the other person up within that framing and the structure summaries, you could send them somewhere else. Agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, you can absolutely send people off on the wrong

A Cautionary Tale About Bad Framing

SPEAKER_00

path. I I share an example of this in the book where a colleague of mine, we were directors in a project office, but a colleague was about to leave the building. She had to go so much, she had a 15-minute drive to spend the afternoon on a strategy session with a big client. One of her team came into her office just as she was packing up to leave and said, Oh, can I tell you about like the thing that happened this morning with the client? And because it was an important client and that was the topic for the afternoon, she said, sure. And he began to talk about a real disaster that had been uh that what had occurred. And he was saying, Oh, what this is what happened yesterday. We did a code release, the system failed, we did all this stuff. And of course, Emma was thinking, Oh my goodness. Okay, problem-solving mode, what happened? Is this going to change our strategy? Do I need to call out to the client? And then Dave was saying, Oh no, but you know, we caught it. Luckily, we caught it just before it went into production. So she was like, okay, so there's no problem. Because, but then what happened next was, and he went, took her on this roller coaster of problem solution, problem solution. And she was in problem-solving mode, trying to work out what it meant, watching the clock because she had to get out the door. And after about five minutes, because she blessed her, she's very patient, far more patient than I am in those situations. She said, David said, Is there something you need from me? And he said, Oh, oh no, no, we got it all sorted. I just thought you'd find it amusing because I mean, what a drama this client is. And the I can picture now just the combination of relief and frustration both happening at the same point. Because why didn't you start with, hey, can I tell you a funny story? And then summarize it. And then I think we're going to talk about this in a moment. Give me an opportunity to tell you whether I can have the conversation now or not.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great example. And just how many times somebody's going a complete different direction on there? And that's so critical of that framing and the context. So I love you've got two little spots that you kind of break in that are critical pieces within the framework. You've got the main pieces, but then you've got these little slices in that if they're missed, can really, really derail this specific first minute conversation.

Time Check And The Minute Myth

SPEAKER_01

What are those two and why are they important?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the two things are a time check and a validation checkpoint, which don't sound particularly exciting, but they can save your reputation at work. So the time check is making sure the other person has time to talk and the right amount of time at that moment. If I'd if I'd bumped into you, was one around, seeing you and thought, oh, I really want to talk to you about something, Brian. If I jump into my topic, even if I frame it, even if I summarize it, if I jump in, I'm just assuming you have time to talk to me right now. You could be on your way to the rest of the restaurant. Because you've got the time, doesn't mean I have the time. Yeah, exactly. You might be on your way to the restroom. There could be urgent things you need to do. Got to pick up your kids. Whatever. I I shouldn't assume that you have the time to talk right now. So after the framing, and if your summary is short and you can do the whole thing in less than 30 seconds, you do the framing. So you say, here's what I want to talk about, here's why it's important to you, here's the headline. Then you ask a question and say, Hey, do you have time to talk about this now? I think it'll take about seven or eight minutes.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, right there. We gotta stop right there. That is critical. Because in your book, you talk about, hey, do you have a minute? But it's not really a minute. Maybe it's the minute of the interruption for the moment. It is never a minute. And it ends up being five or ten minutes, because most people are gonna say yes to I've got a minute within that. So that is I absolutely love that, Chris. And nobody does that because all of a sudden it is, oh, you're catching them from point A to point B, and obviously they're heading somewhere on this. And it could really mess up what you're intended to do on there. So if somebody says, obviously, if they say yes, you continue, well, how do you handle it if they say I don't or or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. If not, it's okay, can I can I send you a message about this? Can we schedule time in the future? Just uh at the very least, go, oh fine, I'll follow up later. Because if the person's in a if someone's rushing to a meeting, don't make them more late. Exactly. You can take the action to follow up later. Or if you think there's enough time to say, hey, can I talk to you uh later on, just give them an an exit. And I love that you brought up the do you have a minute? It's it's one of my real bugbears. It's the thing that frustrates me so much. If people say, Can I have a minute? Most people can't get their point across in a minute, let alone have the conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Even if you prove that by writing a book on the subject of the first minute. So obviously you can't solve the problem in a minute because you've got things to do in the first minute with your framework.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Yeah. So don't ask for a minute. Ask for the amount of time that you need. If say, hey, do you have five minutes? It maybe it'll take ten. And here's why that is so important. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Ooh, I like that. If you if you don't do this, you're breaking your own self-imposed deadline and you're showing to the other person you don't care about their time, you don't understand how much time it takes to do things, you're not very organized. And while they might not immediately sort of think this strongly, it's a tiny micro interaction that, repeated over time, affects your reputation. If you always came to me, Brian, and said, Hey Chris, do you have a minute? And I know it's gonna take 10, I'm going to inwardly sigh every time I see you coming towards me. And I'm gonna think, do I have time for Brian?

SPEAKER_01

Man, that's so good because I know that guy. And that's the guy when I see him coming ahead of time on there, I'm not going, hey man, I got to head to this meeting, I'm running late, or what I'm gonna jump on a car. Whatever, can you circle back later? I mean, like I've just learned to preempt that guy with that. And you are so right on the reputation.

SPEAKER_00

It's he could be coming to you to tell you that your car's on fire and and you the history of interaction with that person, you're already trying to avoid them. This is the kind of reputation damage that we can have when we don't get those first even 10 seconds right in our work conversations.

SPEAKER_01

And Chris, I like how you did it where I believe it's gonna take five minutes, but possibly ten. That's again honoring to somebody else's time. My dad used to say all the time, early is on time, on time is late, and late is disrespectful of other people's time.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's one of his quotes. Um, but also something like this where you're you're leading me to believe it's only gonna take one, two, five minutes. And then all of a sudden I'm looking at my my watch and I'm like, we're nowhere near even the start of this conversation, let alone that this is going to end on this. I need you to land the plane. Dude, you're lost in the air, man. Like you are so far from where we need to be on that. So that's huge on the validation as far as on the um I'm sorry, on the time check with where we need to be in that conversation.

Validation Checkpoint Ability And Availability

SPEAKER_01

Tell us about the validation checkpoint.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So the validation checkpoint is where you after doing framing and the summary, you give the other person the opportunity to say, hey, that's not me, or that's not something that we can do. You and you pause the conversation. And so the way to do it is to say, I I've done my intro, I've said, I want to talk to you about this. Here's the high-level summary. Um is it okay to like are you the right person to talk about this with? Great question. And your response might be, no, actually, you need to talk to Dave in marketing or Emma from accounting or whomever. I'm using Dave and Emma a lot in my examples today. Exactly. They they are. Common names with uh I had a client this week with those names. I think that's partly why it's uh top of mind. Exactly, nice. And none of the stories today have been about those two those two people this week. So the checkpoint is where is where it gives you an opportunity to actually validate if the other person is the right person to talk about, if this is the right format, and it gives them another way to get out of the conversation. You're not trapping them in a conversation at that moment. So between the time check and the validation checkpoint, you're changing a monologue into a dialogue.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. And I in the book you list it as ability. So whether they're that's this person who has the ability of having this conversation, solving the problem, whatever the next step is. And I think it's it's also honoring, too, Chris. I I like the verbiage of just making sure, are you the right person or is it somebody else of that? And then you realize, well, that's a completely different thing. Now I can help them in the moment because now this is Jeff's problem. I mean, Jeff's conversation. Because you're like going, hey, it's not me. You know what I'm saying? So if I'm not that guy, and then I don't I don't feel trapped anymore. And I think that was another really, really key word. So you but another word you use in that was availability. So ability and then availability on the time. So once we've locked into, okay, I am the person you need to have that conversation with to solve the problem, then you're again you're affirming the availability of the amount of time that it's going to go with that. So unpack how that's different than um earlier on the time check.

SPEAKER_00

So the ability and availability means I'm ready to do it now. So the time check is I have conversation. You could ask me, hey, do you have do you have five minutes? I'm like, yeah, I've got five minutes. And then you drop a topic on me that actually I want to prep for. And so while I have five minutes, I don't have the availability for that right now because perhaps my head's in something else I need to do. If you were asking a lightweight thing, then I can deal with that and then I can go into my my client discussion, the chat with the MD, whomever. But if you're asking about something that's deep or that's going to take me off track, I actually don't have the availability for that right now. I and I should say, as a decent human being and recipient, say, hey, I want to give this the attention it deserves. So thank you for for saying, um, am I available now? Can we set up some some time later on today? I'm free at two. So as a recipient, I can make it, I can respond to that validation checkpoint and propose a better time. So availability and ability to help are both really, really important.

SPEAKER_01

And I like the the availability because for those that are thinkers, for those that are not necessarily quick on their feet, if you will, or to your point, need to prepare, and that's their reputation, that's just kind of their MO, that's critical. Because that really allows them to be able to say, oh, okay, well, again, I may be available as far as time or ability-wise, like I'm the guy, but I'm not ready to do that right now. So I just love how the ability within this allows for people, again, just out. And I really, really like that it's honoring of them and their time. And I think those are two massively missed opportunities that can really, really make sure this conversation goes forward. And I love that about your book, because that is we're really trying to honor people, their time. Are they the right person? Do they need to prep with that? That's critical on that. So I want to do that. Any closing thoughts on the on the actual framework itself?

SPEAKER_00

I I actually want to close with something that you've mentioned that I don't cover very much, but you've really brought it up nicely, which is it honors the other people. So the the book is a very anyone reading it, it's to help you as an individual do better. If you're looking for a little motivation, motivation number one is your reputation will be negatively impacted if you don't do this stuff. Not loads, but enough that when it comes to promotion time, someone else may be, maybe looked at more favorably. So that's the self-motivation. The other motivation is honor the people around you, be conscious of what's important to them. And I love that that's the takeaway that you've repeatedly come back to from these methods.

How To Stop Ramblers With Questions

SPEAKER_01

Well, and it's sometimes we learn by things that are not done or not done well. And you and I, Chris, are you specialists in communication, conversation, connection, which are the three focus areas of Elite Business Connector. And so I think we have a heightened awareness of that and we see it often not done. Any suggestions when people are doing that, besides avoiding them, a way to maybe kind of coach them into saying, hey, maybe next time boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. In this case, you may be five or six things, depending on that guy, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yes, there are. This is the question that I I often have when I run training sessions on this, it's one of the first questions people have, even if they don't say it, which is how do I stop other people rambling? Or how do I help that person get to the point? And I always answer it at the end. And the reason I answer it at the end is you use these methods. So think of them as a recipient. If you know the framing and the some structured summary methods, you now know the pieces of information you need to be able to effectively listen, understand, focus, and process that information. So treat it like a fill-in-the-blanks exercise. If you'd come up to me, Brian, and you were talking and 30 seconds in, I had those three questions. What are you talking about? Why are you telling me this? What's your point? I then interrupt politely and interject and say, can I just can I just check? Are we talking about this topic? Great. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I'm seeking the.

SPEAKER_01

Because obviously they weren't clear, which requires that question.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. But I haven't said, hey, what are you talking about? You haven't made it clear. I've used the the Stephen Covey approach of seek first to understand, just to ask a question. It's either they're going to say yes, great, now you're both on the same page, or they're going to say no. That's even better because you catch early that the that you're thinking about different topics and you quickly get back on the same page. So the secret to stopping other people rambling is ask them questions to fill in the blanks. And not only do you both get more clarity, you also change a monologue into a dialogue. Love that.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. Any closing thoughts right now, Chris, and anything specific that you want for those that are following along at home or in a car or wherever we are, listening to this, hey man, I need to make sure I I catch this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Start with the framing, topic, intent, and point. If you get that wrong, then it doesn't matter if your structured summary is great, because they're still going to be thinking about those three missing questions. So that's the first thing. Do framing first. Practice, practice, practice. And the second point is even though this sounds like a simple method, and it is, it takes time and repetition to practice. It's not five hours a day of effort every day. It's not like learning a new language. But a little and often over months is what it takes to make this a natural habit. So give yourself a break. Allow yourself not to do it all the time, but do make effort to consciously apply this method.

SPEAKER_01

That's excellent. And both of our frameworks, as we mentioned earlier, are simple, but it doesn't necessarily mean easy, just because it's simple and it's going to take some reps. The other thing I love about both of our frameworks, Chris, is that they're guardrails and they're not handcuffs. So they're things that we can be thinking through of this. Oh, I'm I need to stay into this lane here as opposed to so rigid, I don't have any control of where it's going to go in there. We're not overthinking on what's going on in the process. So I love the simplicity of yours as well, and to be able to use that.

Rapid Fire Plus Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01

So I always end with quick, rapid fire questions. Ready for these? I will try and give quick, rapid fire answers. There you go. I just framed that just so you know using your vernacular and this. And it will only take a it'll only take a minute, Chris, just so you know.

SPEAKER_00

I'm timing.

SPEAKER_01

Or you can throw it in, hey, five minutes of my part. You can throw that back to me on that one. So quick rapid question number one. Naturally good or bad at remembering names? Bad, but getting better. Excellent. Good response. Talker or listener, which were you naturally? Talker. But you are a very good listener. I will I will I'll give you kudos on that. So you're one of the rare that's uh that you're ambidextrious when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. It takes effort. So my natural is talker, but I I apply a lot of effort to be a listener. So I really appreciate that feedback. Perfect. Very good. More scripted or spontaneous? I love scripted. I'm better at spontaneous.

SPEAKER_01

Good. What is your pet peeve that just drives you crazy about people? People asking for a minute because it's blatantly not going to be a minute. Literally not that. So that's awesome. Biggest communication turnoff in business. Starting with the detail. Don't. Just way too quick, way too soon. And you unpack that so I can completely see why.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And actually, you should write a book. I'll give a very, very short answer. Yeah. Don't start with the detail. Give me the summary, tell me where we're going, and then we can get into the detail. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And for people that like details, they don't really care to get the summary first because they're going to get to the details of that. So it's especially for those of you that are going, what is he talking about? So that's great. A strength, aka your superpower, you bring into a conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Being able to simplify something that someone else has said that's messy, simplify, clarify, and help the conversation move on.

SPEAKER_01

That's excellent. Again, back to the frameworks. Very usable. How do you know when you're starting to connect with another person in a conversation? The body language relaxes into it. Great response. And succinct too. Well done. Two more. What's one connection skill you wish everyone would work on?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell The one thing we I'd love people to work on is stop waiting for your turn to speak and actually be interested in the other person.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. I call it locked-in listening, and that's a huge valuable gift and give to the other person. Last one. If you can master one connection skill overnight, what would it be and why?

SPEAKER_00

Actually nailing the first couple of minutes of a new person interaction at an event. So I as I said, I reread your book uh often because I would love to be able to do that without needing to spend three months practicing it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Excellent. Excellent on

Where To Find Chris And His Books

SPEAKER_01

that, Chris. This is promo time here. How can people find you online? Let's unpack that just a little bit more about what you do. Obviously, an author. So let's reference a couple of those books, which I'm a big fan of, and kind of unpack that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want to know more about me and what I do, go to chrisfening.com. It's just my name. LinkedIn is my social hangout. Come and say hi. Ask me questions. I respond to everything. And yeah, I'm a I'm an author and a trainer. So I've written six books on multiple different topics. There are more books coming, and I turn those into one-on-one training. There are online courses. I work with large and small organizations to help teams overcome everyday communication frustration.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. And two of the books that I think we need to revisit, you're gonna you're gonna be a uh come back a lot often, guy. Just so you know, Chris, you bought this one. I think I'm gonna get the other two free out of you. The book on emails is so good. And then also two on the book on meetings. So those are another two that are very, very practical on there for a salesperson, for really anybody in our my world that comes and listens to this, hospitality, customer service, any that it's working with people on a consistent basis. So they're going out and talking to people. So there's takeaways there, but then there's also their own communication internally, and especially on the emails one. I think that's important because especially if we're talking about follow-ups. So let's say we have the first five minutes, that goes well because we made a connection. Then we move into the first minute, frame that conversation, summary, work through the checkpoints, you know, the time, all those little pieces of that. And then there is the follow-up with that next person. So I'd really like to revisit that, especially if somebody you've just met with the first time. What does that email, what does that correspondence look like in the future? I think it'd be uh add a lot of value.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, we can definitely dive into that. And here's here's the value for those things. So people are wondering, why would I buy a book on emails or meetings? Well, the the clients that I work with, I did an audit with a company last week, and they were frustrated they weren't getting replies to their messages. We made two very simple changes that took the team less than 30 seconds to make those changes in their emails, and their response rates went up by over 25%. Now, these aren't outbound sales messages, these are the transactional stuff. So I don't claim to be good at at sales. But people were reading and replying and replying more completely. And then for the meetings, 30% less time in meetings, and those remaining meetings produced what they needed. Small changes can yield significant results. And that, when I hear those kind of numbers, those sorts of changes, that is music to my ears because practical books that really drive valuable solutions, that that's why we write this stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Exactly. And for those of the listener that like the first five minutes, they're gonna like just as much the first-minute book, emails, meetings, and um obviously in the other books that you have, trainings that stick. I mean, just there's so much that's there. It's a similar feel. You've got the framework that's there, so you're gonna be used to that. It's the very practical, the examples that are there. There's shorter reads on that, which it's kind of and it's hard. I mean, Chris, you know this man. Sometimes it's harder. I mean, it's my fifth book. And you know, obviously you're six, you're one ahead of me, you're a one-upper. But it's it's just sometimes it it's harder to write those books because you're taking complex and you're making them simple. And it's one of those things.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, indeed. Yeah. I love that we're in the short book club because one, nobody recommends a book they haven't finished. And two, the shortest distance between the reader and the solution they need, that's there's no need for fluff. It's get them the answers, make it practical. Everybody wins.

SPEAKER_01

Speaking of that, time to wrap up. So, Chris, man, you've been a pleasure to have on this podcast of this. Man, I feel like we're yin and yang and um excited about interviewing you again. I'll make sure in our show notes we've got all the listings as far as the books, specifically each one. I'm gonna make sure we list also two how to find you on LinkedIn and then also your website on there. Because I want people to follow you. I want people to find the balance between the first five minutes and the first minute, because if they can nail those two together, holy shnikes, they're gonna be very, very dangerous, especially if they're meeting somebody the first time, or just internal communication. Everybody has to work with somebody. I think that's the other part of the gold here, and we're both on the communication side. So, Chris, any last comments?

SPEAKER_00

Just want to say thank you. It's been a great discussion, both before this and live. Really looking forward to people getting some value from this. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for

Closing Message And Subscribe Reminder

SPEAKER_00

your time, Chris.

SPEAKER_01

Well, episode 24 is officially in the books, in and out, and either Chris more or myself got hurt. And I'd like to thank Chris Fenning for his time and investing into us. Hope you walk away challenged, thinking new thoughts and ideas, and better as a result of this interview. Remember that all the episodes and links of Chris's books, LinkedIn, website, YouTube, et cetera, are available in the show notes. And don't forget to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode. And if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment below. Let us know what resonated with you from this interview. Well, and you know it, as my Chicago Bears chant, good, better, best, never let it rest till your good gets better and your better gets best. As my father used to say, thanks for coming, but most of all, you guessed it. Thanks for leaving. I'm out. You got this now. Now is your time to do something with this episode. And don't we remember to leverage your first five minutes to build connection, trust, and influence. You got this now.

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Bryan Buckley

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