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Elite Business Connector Podcast
What a Mascot Turned Executive Coach Knows That Most Leaders Don't (Interview with Keith Lewis) - 030
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What does being a mascot for a team on the longest losing streak in Division I college football history have to do with leadership, connection, and the first five minutes? Everything. In this episode, Bryan Buckley sits down with Keith Lewis — executive coach, keynote speaker, and former Northwestern Wildcat mascot — for one of the most unexpected and insightful conversations the podcast has produced. Keith draws a direct line from the sidelines of a 64–0 blowout to the boardrooms of Fortune 500 companies, and the principles he uncovered along the way are immediately applicable for anyone in sales, leadership, or hospitality. Here's what Bryan and Keith unpack:
- The Mascot Principle — You represent more than yourself in every room; how that realization changed how Keith shows up and why it should change how you do too
- Inside Out vs. Outside In — The single most common leadership failure Keith sees across every industry: letting external demands author your day instead of deciding how you show up from the inside
- Guiding Principles — Why having your values written as one word is not enough; the difference between a core value and a guiding principle, and why specificity changes everything
- Blind Spots — How mascots taught Keith about the cost of limited vision, and the practical ways to find the guides and jesters in your own life who will tell you the truth
- Three Levels of Listening — From listening for yourself, to listening from the other person's perspective, to full-body listening — and why the third level is where real connection and breakthrough questions live
- Ego as the Universal Failure Pattern — Across every industry and title, Keith sees the same issue show up over and over; the leader who got defensive at his 360 feedback, waited three weeks, then came back ready — and improved 30 percentile points in 18 months
Timestamps
0:00 — Introduction & How Bryan And Keith Met
1:50 — The Mascot Origin Story: Northwestern's 23-Game Losing Streak
4:15 — From Sideline To Boardroom: When The Connection First Hit
7:18 — Leading Inside Out vs. Outside In
10:47 — By Me Or To Me: Are You The Author Of Your Day?
13:39 — Reading The Room: Bryan And Keith Trade Frameworks
17:52 — Guiding Principles: The Four Groups And Why Most People Stop Short
23:14 — Core Values vs. Guiding Principles: What Changes Each Season
25:14 — Blind Spots: What Mascots Teach Us About Limited Vision
28:30 — Finding Your Guides And Jesters
29:03 — Asking Questions And The Three Levels Of Listening
36:06 — The Universal Communication Failure Pattern: Ego
39:55 — One Thing To Take From The Book
41:00 — Rapid Fire Round
49:51 — Where To Find Keith And His Book
50:59 — Sign-Off
Featured Guest
- Keith Lewis — Executive coach, keynote speaker, and founder of VeraSpark. Find his book Sparking Your Inner Leader on Amazon and connect with him at veraspark.com.
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Wordless Mascot Hook
SPEAKER_00He couldn't speak a word. Literally, not a single word. He was inside a mascot suit at Northwestern University, representing the team, the school, the brand, the energy of the entire stadium. And he had to do it without saying a single word. No verbal introduction, no sales pitch, no rehearsed opener. Just his presence, just instinct, just the ability to read the room, make people feel something in the first five seconds and connect with them using the one tool most of us lean on the most. Our voices. And here's what he figured out inside that suit that those same skills, they don't just make a great mascot. They make you a great leader. How's that for an interview teaser? So let's get into it. Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast, where we believe how you interact with people will make or break your opportunity to develop a real and influential connection. Now, whether you're a rookie or a rock star with people, you're in the right place right now. Let's do this. Welcome to the Elite Business Connector Podcast. I'm your host, Brian Buckley, husband of one, father of five. And I'm on a mission to help you develop deepen and master your business communication skills. And my promise to you, no matter the episode, if you listen and subscribe, I'm going to bring my best content and energy every single week to help you get better at communicating and connecting in a business environment. Now, if you're in sales, you're in leadership, customer service, hospitality, or if you're in any business where relationships matter, let's be honest, what business is that not the case? You're in the right place right now. And that one thing, that's the first five minutes of a business conversation. Today is an even-numbered episode, which means an interview with a subject matter expert. So let's meet our guest.
Meet Keith Lewis
SPEAKER_00Keith Lewis is the founder of Veraspark, a leadership development company, and he spent over two decades coaching executives across industries healthcare, energy, tech, construction, finance, higher education. He's a professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation, holds an MBA from the University of Texas at Austin, and has worked with leaders at every level from emerging managers all the way up to C-suite. But here's the part that makes Keith very different from any other leadership coach, at least that I've ever met. He started his career in a mascot suit from 1981 to 1985. He served as Willie the Wildcat, Northwestern University's mascot, during a stretch when Northwestern was setting the record for the most consecutive losses by a Division I football program. And inside that suit, unable to speak a word, he started learning things about presence, about connection, about reading a room that he would spend the next four decades teaching in boardrooms all around the world. And his new book is called Sparking Your Inner Leader: A Practical and Passionate Perspective from the Mascot who became an executive coach. And exactly as good as that title promises. So please welcome to the Elite Business Connector podcast. Well, I am live right now on the Elite Business Connector Podcast with the Keith Lewis. How are you and where are you? Love the background.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Bran. I'm happy to be here. I'm normally in Austin, Texas, but I am currently sitting in San Diego, California, where it's perfect. The weather is amazing.
SPEAKER_00Imagine that. Imagine that. So, well, let's talk about how we met. So we came across from a mutual friend, Dan Hurd, and uh we met in this uh lousy place to visit with and for me from Chicago during the winter, Miami, Florida. So you remember that, remember that meeting, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That was another lovely place to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we have something we both have in common, which is our visiting SKOs. And we were presenting just at different times, and I got a chance to be able to sit into your session, which I was thrilled about, consumed your book afterwards, and obviously it led to uh having you come on the podcast here. So any any reflections on that time of us getting a chance to meet and and your session there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it was a great time to meet. Just, I mean, good to see Dan again. Great to meet you and and part of Dan's team and some of the other folks that were together. I know we we had some issues with people flying in that day because it was the NCAA championship weekend as well. They were getting set for that and some flights were late. But I think when we when we all got together, we had some really good discussions about kind of what is what is truly meaningful to us and why we're here and doing what we do in our lives and in our businesses.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I love the way you present, and I loved your content. And uh, so let's dive right in, Keith, and uh and go from there. I think
Mascot Lessons On Presence
SPEAKER_00one of the coolest parts most people have no idea about is the backstory of you being a mascot. So take me back to that first game as Willie the Wildcat and Northwestern University lost, what was it like 23 games in a row, and you're in this suit, and you can't say a single word, nobody knows who you are. What did you discover about connecting with other people in those first few minutes that obviously you could not have learned any other way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I mean, the what I remember about that first game, especially, I mean, no, remember, Northwestern is in the process of setting the most losses in a row for a Division I team. They hadn't won a game since 1979. This is now, you know, September, uh actually almost October of 1981. So when we walked into Dyke Stadium, and you know, I'm in the fursuit, and I can't say anything. I think at that time it was actually a bit of a football uniform with paws and with a furry head. The the atmosphere was one that there weren't a lot of fans there. I mean, we were not drawing a ton of people. And a lot of the fans that were there were fans of Iowa, who we played that day, and we got crushed. I think we got beat 64 to nothing in that game. You know, so super disheartening from that perspective. But for me, I mean, I was excited because it was my first time to be in the Wildcat suit and to try to pump up the the Northwestern fans that were there. And so I said, yeah, right, all three of them. But you know, there were some, there were definitely fans there and come people who were just diehards and came and root for the team. And and it was fun. It was fun interacting with them. There was the cheerleading squad was there. We had a dance line that's there. So it was just fun to interact with some of my fellow students, but also interacting with the with the rest of the fans that were there and just trying to get people, you know, how do you get people excited when your team's down at, you know, 42 to nothing? It's it's challenging. And sometimes it's just connecting with them one-on-one, giving high fives. I mean, you know, in one sense, the cheerleaders, the dance line, and myself, we become the entertainment because the entertainment there was on the field wasn't very entertaining.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So, but there did come to a moment, Keith, obviously, where a parallel started between you and what you're doing on the sideline as a mascot, and then all of a sudden, fast forward to where you are now in your career of helping leaders going from a field to a boardroom. When did that connection kind of start to first hit you? And what was that moment like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, I mean, I started into coaching in the late 90s. I was just getting some education, some certification. I knew it was something I wanted to do. Up until that time, I had been helping clients, but it was in workshops and seminars and off-sites and simulations, and it was large group uh type of processing. And I realized that my clients were learning a ton, but then they were going back into environments where, you know, they were, they were back on the road, back in the car on their way to the next sales call. And whatever they learned, you know, may have just kind of flown out of their head. And with coaching, I could be with people more long term. I could, you know, meet with them every couple of weeks, every week, every two weeks, every three weeks, whatever our schedules allowed. And it allowed me to help them stay with that learning and getting it into application and practice and maybe even a habit. So when I started coaching in the late 90s, it was probably about three years into that. I had some clients, and I just started having this, these revelations about, oh, you know, I was kind of like, ah, I learned that when I was a mascot. Like, you know, this person was talking about being the representative of the organization. I was like, yeah, you know, that's what I was when I was a mascot. When you're, you know, you know, Brian, when you're a salesperson, right? When you're out on the road selling, who do you represent besides? I mean, I know you represent Brian, but who else do you represent in that moment?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it's with the company that I'm repping, my own company, whoever I'm with, it's it's bigger. It's bigger than just me. And sometimes we make it just about us.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So, you know, I know I have my numbers I'm trying to hit. I know I have my, you know, I've got to hit these quarterly targets. I know I'm trying to, you know, do these things of trying to make 50 calls a quarter, whatever it might be, whatever those KPIs are. But in the end, we have to always remember that we represent those organizations that we're outselling, whether it's our own or we're representing a bigger company like Verizon or, you know, any other company that it may be. That's what I learned in the mascot suit, is it wasn't just me trying to be some goofy, you know, 19-year-old in a wildcat outfit. I was a representation of Northwestern University. And so my actions had implications. And some of those I learned the hard way, right? So I had to realize that there were certain things that I had to be aware of because I wasn't just, you know, some dude in a wildcat suit. I was, I was a representative of this larger organization.
SPEAKER_00That's well said. It's the name on the front of the jersey. So one of the things I love about your book, too, Keith, here, I'm gonna give it a good shout out here, was you really dive into kind of that inside out concept all throughout the book. You talk
Inside-Out Leadership Over Reactivity
SPEAKER_00about leaders who are the most successful, the ones who work from the inside out. But in your experience, coaching executives or really anybody, what are some of the common signs that someone is leading maybe from the outside in instead of the inside out? And why is it important that it starts from the inside?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the outside in is really us being managed by everything else around us. So I'll give you just a great example. You know, we all wake up in the morning, maybe we pop our phone on, or maybe we open our laptop, and then there's our emails, right? How many emails did you have unopened when you woke up this morning? Do you remember, Brian?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well, and for the record, I don't look at my first wake up because then they control me. So exactly. So when I did get to that, it was uh a scary number.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but that's exactly the point. If that's one of the first things you do, you are letting your emails dictate your day. You know, you're letting other things from the outside, all these people, even the junkie mail, right, that takes up this mind space or this energetic space just to hit the delete button, is now controlling what I'm doing with my time as opposed to me deciding how do I want to use my time and control my time. So outside in is allowing all these external factors to determine what I am doing today, when do I pivot? How do I turn around? So again, if I'm in a sales environment and I go visit a client and I have, you know, to-dos. Hopefully, I get some to-dos as a result of that sales call. When I am done with that, you know, did I give myself some time to do those to-dos? Or let's say my client gave me some things to do and I just started doing all of them, not not paying attention to the fact that, hey, I got another sales call in 30 minutes, and I've got to be down the road and prepped, you know, and kind of have my mind ready for that one. So am I letting what's happening dictate, you know, where I pivot next, or am I saying, look, I know that's important, but I tell my client, hey, these are some great things. We're gonna follow up. I'm not gonna say I'll have these to you within the hour. I'll say I'll have these to you tomorrow or next week. And I'll give myself the breathing room to know that I can get to it, but I'm not gonna get to it right away and it takes the pressure off of me. So now I'm directing more from the inside out as opposed to letting the outside guide me. And a good way to know that is if you're being reactive. If you find yourself constantly reacting to things that are happening to you. So it's a great one of my mentors gave me this great tool that was are you letting things happen to you or are you the author? Like, am I the author? Am I writing the script for myself? So is it by me or is it to me? Because if it's to me, then I'm probably being reactive. But if it's by me, like I'm the author, then I am really working more inside out.
SPEAKER_00Love that. And I love just even that little bit of a change of to me versus by me. And that's so important, especially too when we if we're with the guests and we're in customer service or hospitality and always trying to react and serve. If we're in sales and wanting to make sure we over-deliver on them, those are areas where we can get ourselves in a lot of trouble. So that's a really good word on that, Keith. Really, really good word. I want to go back to the mascot just for a second.
How To Read The Room
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because you're in front of 20,000 people. But the principle of the fact that you're well exactly, sometimes more, unless it's a home home northwestern game, right? You know, if you're at the University of Michigan or Ohio State, you're in front of a hundred thousand people. That's true. Absolutely true. Yeah. And what does that teach us about the role of listening and kind of that nonverbal presence? But in the context of a business conversation, especially in our situation, talking about the first five minutes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, certainly when you're in any type of role in front of an audience, I mean, you know, in some cases, you know this from speaking. I mean, we are the ones who are doing a lot of the talking. But if we're thinking about, you know, what is how am I being present to that moment in a stadium? The only way a mascot can communicate is with their nonverbals, right? So their body language communicates a ton, how they show up, you know, when you walk into a stadium, you know, you walk into the opponent's stadium, when you walk into Michigan's big house, you know, in a wildcat uniform, you're not the most popular person. Right. So if you're not the most popular person, do you walk in kind of, you know, big and tough? Do you walk in kind of funny and do some funny things? Do you walk in like you're, you know, like you own everything? Do you walk in meek and mild? You know, how do you present yourself? And that first impression is going to be whether I got even some of those fans, even though the opposing team, did I get them on my side? Right. So we had plenty of fans, even though they they rooted for Michigan State or Iowa or Minnesota, they were still fans of Northwestern, you know, because the Wildcat was like, you know, fun. The cheerleaders were kind people. They had they had fun with the with the audiences that were in front of them. And, you know, if we're in hospitality, right, paying attention to those nonverbal cues that we're getting from our customers when we're able to actually see them walk up to the front desk, you know, paying attention to their nonverbal cues and listening to the words they're using, the word choices that my clients are making sometimes really can tell us a lot or at least cause us to get curious as to why did, you know, why might they have used that word? And maybe this is indicative of something else. And we can do something, we can help them, we can solve the problem because we're paying more close attention to those things.
SPEAKER_00That's excellent. And it actually leads to something that we parallel in your content and mine in your book. I loved it, because you were talking about really the reading the room and adjusting your approach to whatever audience you're in front of there. So you're you're affirming that. Anything else you want to add to that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I was going to ask you, how do you do that? How do you what's what's one example of how you read the room? Let's say it's a one-on-one situation. What are the things you do? Especially, let's say you're going to your client's office.
SPEAKER_00Now, those that are listening at home right now or in your car, this is the sign of a great coach asking a great question on there. So well played and uh I love it. So we talk about often two different ways. One is most of the time we know who we're going in to see. So we call that pre-read the room. So, how do I take five minutes before the first five minutes to find five connection points, not data points, connection points?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I can lead going into the room into that. And that's the best case scenario because then I could acknowledge with that connection point and then I could ask. So I'm engaging them in that first minute to think personal. But to your other point, other point, it may be where I'm just reading the room and I have to go in cold. And really, it may be external. So, what are the things that I'm seeing that's there? Maybe it is the fact that they were a Northwestern grad or the Ohio State University, or a picture of their family, something that's personal to them, and then using that as a lead talking point to acknowledge and then ask, what was your experience at the Ohio State University? Or tell them about your family. How long you've been married? How old are your kids? Yeah. And just something to make that connection that's there. But then sometimes it's the internal, which you just referenced, which is once they ask or they're answering that question, how do they respond? Am I picking up on their body language? Do they want to tell more? Are they being guarded? Could I ask a second question that can maybe unlock a little bit more of their content and where, you know, where they are personally that? So good question.
SPEAKER_01Turn it on me. Yeah, I'm thinking the exact same thing, right? If we can get some pre-work done, I mean, there's so much information out there. We can go to LinkedIn or wherever and find a little bit of information about the person we're meeting with. Look for those talking points, those places that we can connect on a human level. And then if we can't do that, as you said, in the room looking for those things. And the two words that I would kind of put with what you're saying to deepen it a bit is curiosity, right? Let's just be curious about who is this person. This is another human being walking around the planet just like us, trying to accomplish whatever it is that they're trying to do. Get curious about what excites them or what lights them up or what they are passionate about. You know, if they have a football on the shelf, asking them about that signed football, if they have a picture of their family asking about what their family vacation is or what they're doing over Memorial Day weekend, those types of things are amazing. And then the second piece, though, that I think can be really the difference between what I would call a good salesperson and a great one, is if I could define that curiosity by authentic curiosity. Like I really care about you. I really want to know. I'm really interested in who you are, right? There's the whole, you know, showroom salesperson at the dealership that's looking at my shoes, you know, to know if I'm really going to be able to afford that vehicle or not. You know, there's that kind of pre-work. And there's no authenticity behind that. But the person who might pay attention to the fact that I've got a logo on my shirt and ask me about my company name or if I'm wearing a baseball cap, you know, hey, looks like you're an Astros fan, you know, tell me about the oh, and the Astros and Cubs are playing, Brian, right now. We're gonna have to talk about that. I don't even know what the score is, but we're gonna check before the end of this podcast. I'll tell you that. Come on now. Come on now. Well, the Cubs are probably winning, so. But anyway, right? It's those kinds of fun connections that you can make and being authentic and real. I mean, people see through inauthenticity a mile away. They can smell that out, and it does not serve you at all. So if you don't, if you can't be authentically curious, you may be in the wrong job. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well said, or a short-lived job. Correct. So one of the things you had in the book, and actually you talked about it at the SKO that uh I was in your session on, and it really hit home. I think
Guiding Principles You Can Practice
SPEAKER_00a lot of people aesthetically think this is a good idea. Where you got into talking about creating and using guiding principles. So, Keith, I mean, obviously, we could do a whole episode just on that. Yeah. So, what I'd like you to do, get the 30,000-foot view of that. And then I really want to encourage people to pick up the book and really work through them because I think there's some absolute goal, but I think it goes back to your principle of the inside out and what really are those guiding principles. So, if you can unpack that at that 30,000 foot level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, at the high level, I mean, the book has four steps in there, and we can dive into the details if we want. But like you said, people can grab the book and walk through that. The high level is this. I did a survey out on LinkedIn. This is a few years ago. I probably should redo it. I'd love to do that and see what the data says. But it basically I was asking people, do you have a set of core values? And what do they look like if you do? And I gave them a few choices. And so about 20% of people, their answer was, I really don't have a set of core values. I was like, that's totally fine. That that's not a judgment whether it's good or bad. But if you haven't given that some thought, you're probably just kind of wandering through your life, you know, just doing whatever it is that comes up next, right? And a door opens, you might walk through it. And there's nothing wrong with kind of wandering. Sometimes it's wonderful. There were another group of people, about, I think it was about 40%, or no, it was 50% of people who said, Yes, I do have core values, but they're not written down, you know, like specifically. They're more in my head. And what I have found when I talk to people and I say, Oh, you you do. Have core values there in your head. And they're like, yeah. And I go, what are they? It's not like they rattle them off immediately. They kind of go, well, you know, family, God, success, you know, faith, whatever it might be. They they kind of rattle off the normal ones, if I could say it that way. Again, not a bad thing. They're getting a little bit more clear, but at least they've given it some thought and they're kind of a little more clear on the direction they're headed, but they're still kind of headed in, you know, essentially I'm headed more or less west, let's say. The next group of 20% are people who say, I have core values, I have them written down. So I could tell you I have, you know, health, I have family, I have giving back, you know, they know the words, right? The phrase or the word that they've used. That's beautiful. Those people are much more clear about where they're headed. They're not, I'm just headed west, you know, I'm headed to San Diego, right? So they're a lot more clear on where they're headed. The last 10% is what I encourage my clients to do when I coach them, which is write out what that is in detail. So, for example, Brian, let me ask you, if I just said name, if in just a word or two words, what are your top couple of values that pop into your that are in your mind? I know you've thought about it because we worked on it in January. But what's one of those?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean if we were to give them one word, obviously relationships I've is where I kind of made that word beautiful. Tweaking it, going through the exercises and health as far as with my age and having younger kids as well and older kids closer to.
SPEAKER_01So if we just take relationships for example, and let's say that there are people listening to this podcast in their car, and we said to them, Do you have relationships as one of your top? And they're like, Yeah. And then I said, Okay, Brian, tell me specifically, what does relationships mean to you? And then I also ask Susan, who's in the car right now, who also has relationships, and I go, Susan, tell me exactly what relationships mean to you. Do you think y'all would have the same answer?
SPEAKER_00It's a good question. I think as the more we've been married, the answer is a lot closer to that. Well, if Susan's your wife, yeah. But let's say Susan's just my wife.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Well, I I I got lucky on that one. But let's say there's somebody out there, not your wife, Susan, but Susan. And sounds really funny that that happened, just so you know. That is funny. I'm I sometimes you get, you know, you have the vibe. Let's say this Susan Smith is driving down the road towards her next sales call, and she says relationships are important. That Susan and you, do you all have the same definition of relationships, do you think? One in a million, no. Probably not, right? And I probably don't. And the other five people that might be listening that have relationships probably don't either. And the reason, therefore, it's important to write out what do you mean by relationships, Brian, is when you write that out, it becomes super clear to you. So it's not just, you know, I want to have good relationships. It's like, you know, I value every person, I value every relationship that I build by being proactive and demonstrating I care about them in every conversation. So that's a guiding principle, right? That's much more detailed. And can real quick, Keith, real quick on that.
SPEAKER_00That step is a huge gap difference than one would think. Because we're sitting in the SKO and we're working on that. And I had, I was in that top percent, not the 10% of the top percent, but that next group up that I had them clearly defined. I mean, yeah, I had them clearly listed in my head. Right. What that meant specifically in that sentence, that was a game changer, Keith. I mean, to really, really put that in. And I think you also had a disclaimer, which I really appreciated. You said this isn't for all time. This isn't like you're putting it in stone. No, because in your case, your kids, what you had 10 years ago, are different with your kids now out of the house and grown in their own relationships. So that relationship looks different with there. It's looking at right now, this current season of life. So I just want to add that to you because it was incredibly valuable. And I underplayed that. Is maybe, you know, Susan Smith, who's listening to this right now, may be thinking, I am close to that, but not really writing it out specifically for right now. What does that look like present day? Right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, my I agree with you completely. And I think the difference between a core value and a guiding principle is a core value may stay fairly similar much of your life or through many seasons, but a guiding principle might change and morph. So I know that, you know, being a caring and loving human being is really important. But, you know, when I was younger and I talked about my family, my family guiding principle was initially about raising children and being a good husband. My kids are grown. I'm still trying to be a great dad, but it's a totally different kind of dad than, you know, a kid who's 12 or 5 or whatever needs. And so I can change my guiding principle now around my family to be more of, you know, I'm a loving, you know, presence for when I'm needed or something along those lines, which may be very different than what I was 10 or 15 years ago.
Blind Spots And Honest Feedback
SPEAKER_00So I want to segue too, because I think the underlining theme on that is blind spots. Sometimes we just don't realize we have them. And you have a great chapter on this, Keith, that really, really spoke to me on blind spots, trying to find out the chapter number, chapter number four on there. So let's untack that for a little bit on that. None of us like to admit that we have blind spots. How do we find those blind spots? And then what do we do once we do uncover them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And again, this came out of the mascot. You know, I thought about this as a mascot. I was like, mascots absolutely have blind spots as soon as they put the head on, right? Yeah. My vision becomes limited. If you're the Syracuse Orange, you're looking out of the baseball cap on top of the orange's head, and you're only seeing about, you know, this much of your vision. If our Wildcat outfit at the newest one we had when I was a senior, we really only had two big eyes that we could look out of. And everything else was, you know, you didn't have peripheral vision. And so what did a mascot need in order to not have difficulty? You have people that are called guides, or they're different groups call them different things, but a guide or somebody who's there just to help you. If you go to a professional stadium, I mean, I know the Cubs, do the Cubs still have a mascot? I only think they do right now. But I'll go to a Cubs. We'll go to a Cubs game. We'll double check this. We'll do some field research. My daughter's there right now, just for the So the Some of these professional mascots, I know the Astros have one. There's always two or three people that are kind of nearby the mascot that are helping them out. They're doing things like they're walking in front of them where they might be headed, or they're kind of following them, and they're fielding some of the questions from the audience, but they're really there to keep the mascots safe and aware of their environment, right? So they're this guide. A good friend of mine, Dave Ribnas, wrote a book called The Corporate Jester. He talked about the role of the jester in the king's court was to make jokes and make everyone laugh, but he did it oftentimes at the expense of the king. And if a smart king was really smart, they would actually pay attention to the jester's jokes because they knew that there was truth in that jest, right? So the question, the answer to your question is how do I get a guide? How do I get a jester? How do I get people who will tell me the truth about, hey, you're about to trip over that, or you just did trip over that. So there's a couple of ways to do that. Certainly you can create that internally, and that's what I recommend a lot to my clients. I mean, my clients hire me as an external gester, right? An external guide to help them see their blind spots. And there are many tools to do that, 360 assessments, other tools to help people kind of see what they can't see. So I would definitely encourage, and we list a bunch in the book too, those types of tools. You can get an external coach, but you can create internally a group of people that are your guides internally. And I encourage my clients, once we have kind of a development plan, here's what I'm working on. Like just as simple as I found out I interrupt people a lot. That was one of my blind spots. So now I might go to a meeting and turn to my, you know, my fellow salesperson who's with me because we're working together on these two days. I'll say, hey, I'm working on interrupting. So if I interrupt during this one, can you either just give me a sign, you know, do the thing on the nose, or just take notes of it so that afterwards we can talk about it. But I want to know if I'm doing that. So you can create your own guides out there once you start understanding what those blind spots are. So that's a couple of examples. We could talk about more if you'd like.
SPEAKER_00But I want to drill down on that because I think we have to be willing to admit that we've got blind spots. Then we got to take it another step further to be willing to let another person know. And especially like you had mentioned, hey, I'm working on this. Can you make me aware of that? Which is feedback. And it's feedback that hopefully we're proactive on from the inside out, if you will, that we want to improve in that area. So I think there's so much there. You know, whether we are working at a hotel and how are we acting in front of a guest, whether we're in a sales meeting, like you had just referenced, whether we're leadership and uh trying to go to that next level. I think all those are truly important. But it does lead to another question to kind of dovetails into this.
Listening Levels And Breakthrough Questions
SPEAKER_00We both hammer Keith a lot on asking questions and listening on that. I'd love to hear your two takes on that. When you mentioned the book, you're kind of heightening your listening capabilities. You mentioned paying more attention to the other person. Breakthrough questions. That was another one that I really, really liked on there. So can we dive into that just a little bit on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I think there's there's a couple of pieces there on the listening side. There was a great book. I'm trying to think of the name of it. I have it in my home office, so I'll have to see if I can get it. But the author talked about kind of three levels of listening, at a minimum, three levels of listening. The first level was if Brian's talking to me and I'm listening and he mentions Wrigley Field, I start thinking about Wrigley Field and the last time I was there, and my all of a sudden I'm ready to tell Brian a story about when I was at Wrigley Field. So I've totally just listened for my own benefit, right? Just to be able to tell my own story, try to make some connection, et cetera. The second level is listening to the story from Brian's perspective. So you tell me the story about Wrigley Field, and rather than tell you my story of Wrigley, I start asking you a little bit about that. It was interesting, Brian. It really seems like that, you know, your relationship with your dad who took you to your first ballgame is super important. So now I'm digging into a little bit more to learn more about you or your needs or your passions or whatever it might be. So that's second level listening. And then third level listening, and this one's a little, I think all of your listeners have experienced this, but it's a little woo-woo. It's listening with your entire body. So what I mean by that is you're now listening with your ears, but you're listening with your eyes. You're paying attention to just any kind of emotional transfer that might be happening, any kind of energetic transfer that might be happening. You're paying attention to, wow, Brian really just got passionate about this. Brian just answered in one word and he seems like he doesn't want to talk about this at all. Or I can tell Brian's under stress. So it's to start paying attention more at a fully somatic level, like your entire body just trying to feel into every clue you're getting. And then again, to be able to use that to create connection, to understand needs, to understand what's going on. And, you know, again, if you're at the front of a hotel desk or if you're a server in a restaurant, which I did many years ago, just thinking about wow, really paying attention with your whole body. It's just an interesting thing to go out there and experiment with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that one we think of very often. So I'm really glad you brought that up. One of the terms that I've learned being ADD attention distraction disorder is I've got to lock in. I mean, that I like the word empathy and I'm listening, um, active listening. For me, I it just starts with, I gotta lock in because I can just be so distracted. I think if I can lock in key, then going to those three different levels and really trying to give that's the first one, which most people are there, and then they hijack the conversation. You know, I call it the me too, and then boom, it becomes my story, not your story on that, but then getting to understand a little bit more about that story with the other person in their context and then the full body of that. So I think there's so much, so much gold in that line of thinking with listening.
SPEAKER_01If I can, just to pick up on when you're selling. So now we're in the selling conversation and I'm listening at that deep level. You talked about this idea of a breakthrough question. So I might be asking you questions or asking the client questions, but if you're listening deeply, if you're really paying attention deeply, if you're really locked in, like you said, you're gonna notice something and you might to the point where you might go, wait, wait, wait, time out. I saw you get really tense there at that one moment. I can see there's some stress that you're feeling behind this. Is it okay if I ask? Tell me more about that, right? It's that I like that.
SPEAKER_00Is it okay if I ask?
SPEAKER_01I like that. Yeah. Is it okay? It's it's that willingness to kind of break through the normality of every sales conversation and really recognize that something else might be going on for that person. And instead of, you know, we typically get we get uncomfortable if we see someone else, you know, now we're talking price, right? And I start to see, oh, you know, we we don't have a lot of budget, oh, you know, whatever. And I, and but paying attention to that, tell me more about that. So let me understand. And then when they start to talk about it, to say, hang on a second, I noticed something happen here. My friend Brady Wilson, who runs a company called Juice, talks about this breakthrough, especially when it's a really difficult conversation you might be having. And somebody, you see someone get change their emotion, typically in in towards a negative emotion. And Brady says, I will oftentimes say, Hey, I I want to stop us for a second. I noticed I might have said something that upset you or hurt you, and that is not my intent. Do, you know, can I ask about it, or do we need to take a time out and maybe take a five-minute break, whatever it is, but to be aware of the needs of that person and to try to understand it better or address it in that moment, people typically appreciate it rather than it making it even more, you know, difficult. People appreciate that you're noticing that they're being seen by you.
SPEAKER_00And for the leaders that are out there, I think uh hopefully they can rewind this and re-listen to this with this concept of being a leader talking to somebody that's on their team and being really listening to that third level, as you mentioned, Keith, and uh really trying to unlock that other person and understanding them a lot more. So that's real that's gold. That's gold for the person walking to the sales, it's monoe mono peer-to-peer, but it's also gold for the leader who's talking to a subordinate, and uh being willing to go that deeper level on there. So,
Ego And Receiving 360 Feedback
SPEAKER_00coach, obviously executives all the time, and there are different industries, Keith. I mean, it's from healthcare, energy, tech. Is there a universal communication potential, let's call it a failure, pattern that you potentially see across from them that shows up no matter what the industry, no matter what the title is?
SPEAKER_01There's probably a ton, but the the one that pops into my head is something you mentioned a bit ago, and we kind of glossed over it. And I'll just mention I see this across industries, and it is that ego piece. So, how often does ego get in the way of our communications? Right? How often I know I'm right, so I just I don't listen, I don't pay attention. My ego may keep me from getting feedback, my ego may keep me from really learning more about myself or my team. My ego may keep me from closer relationships. I had a client that, you know, wanted to go through some coaching. We did a 360 assessment where we had their self-assessment compared to how the, I don't know, dozen or so people rated them. And they had rated themselves much more favorably than everybody else. And they got Yeah. When they got the feedback, I mean, that doesn't happen every time, but it happens. And there are people that react to that feedback differently, but this particular person was like started questioning the data, started questioning the methodology. Defensive, got defensive. And I said, Look, you know, we I can answer these questions about data and methodology. I can send you white papers. It sounds like you're not in a place that you're ready to receive this or you're receiving it, but you're getting defensive about it. And that's totally normal, totally fine. But let's put a pin in it for a while. Let's just pause. And when you really want to take a look at this information for you, let's let's give me a call back. And three weeks later, he called me and he said, I'm ready. And I said, What are you ready for? He said, I'm really ready to look at this data. And I said, Okay, then let's do it. And I'll tell you what, he jumped in with both feet within 18 months, he'd increase his leadership effectiveness scores by over 30th per 30 percentile points. And it's that type of thing that when we get our ego out of our way so that we can really see our blind spots, see our opportunities, see how we're landing and impacting the people that we are selling to, that we manage, that we are guests in our facilities, whatever it may be, that when we really take a look at that, that's when we can see the truth, or at least the truth as others experience it, and start to decide if we want to do something about it or not.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And I love how you position it with the person that noticing full body that they were being defensive, that they're not ready to receive that, and obviously pushing that is not gonna help. But also the humility of this person to be willing to come back and to unpack that. And obviously, it allowed for him to go exponentially quicker because he was in a position to be able to see that. So, and I hope for those that are listening, we've got a number of young listeners as well here that are trying to grow there and oftentimes they care a little too much about the name on the back of the jersey of that and being willing that on the ego side, like they got something to prove on the arrogance but yet insecure, which is a lot of my story coming in the past there. So let's wrap up on their book, Keith. Parking your inner leader. I just love the title of that. What would be one theme that you would want somebody to catch going through that book? Maybe they're hearing this interview and they're like, I really need to pick that book up. What's that one thing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, if you're a young leader, I was talking to a coach yesterday who just picked up my book and she said, Man, if you're really starting out, this book is so helpful. It's got some of the basics in there. So definitely if you're 25 to 40, you know, you're in those first few layers, I think this book can be a big help. I still use it with executives because they haven't done some of the work that's in the book. And so the one thing, if you didn't do anything from the book except for one thing, and I'd love for you to, the book has places where you can practice and gives you some questions at the end of each chapter. But the one thing I would love that if people walked away with was to create and begin to practice using their own set of guiding principles. I think if we had a world where people were really clear about how they wanted to show up in this world, who they wanted to be, and how they wanted to show up with, you know, real authenticity and they really understood that and they could go practice it, I think our world would be an amazing place.
SPEAKER_00Showing up intentionally. Yeah. We all show up, but how much have we really put thought into that for the seasonal life that we're in right now? So that's great. Let's shift gears here.
Rapid Fire And Personal Habits
SPEAKER_00It's part of the show I call Quick Ten Rapid Fire. These are gonna be short questions, quick answers, no overthinking. Right. So this is we're gonna find a little bit more about you, Keith Lewis, here. So you ready to go? Uh, okay. All right. Talker or listener, be honest.
SPEAKER_01Definitely a talker. Early in my career, for sure, talker, talker, talker. Working on being a better listener, but probably I love storytelling. I love story listening too, but I like to tell stories too.
SPEAKER_00Well, I will affirm your growth. And the proof of that is when we were out for dinner and we had the privilege of sitting next to each other, just the amount of questions that you ask and you're listening and going back and forth there. That's what struck a chord to me uh within this. I just want to affirm that that growth in your area of that. So names naturally good or bad at remembering them? Oh, terrible. Steve, I'm terrible at it. Nice, nice. And I can edit that out, but I'm not going to.
SPEAKER_01Descripted or spontaneous? Spontaneous, spontaneous. I don't know if you've ever done this. You're there in Chicago. I took classes at Second City for a year to learn how to do improvisation. When I was at Leo Burnett advertising, they paid for me to go learn that. And what a great skill as salespeople and as service people to understand improvisation. I would highly recommend you take improv classes because it teaches you how to be in the moment, present, and then to be spontaneous and be how you want to show up in that moment.
SPEAKER_00That's great. Questions come naturally, or you have to be intentional to ask them.
SPEAKER_01That's a little situational. I think in a lot of cases, they become their natural, especially in any social situation, walking into a party, et cetera. I always just give my curiosity up. But in some situations, I've had to be a bit more intentional, right? So if it's going out with that couple where my wife is really good friends with the wife, but I don't know the guy at all. And I'm like, uh, okay, let me work on this. There are a couple of times like that, but it's not frequent. It's not frequent.
SPEAKER_00And you still did as a coach too. So I can I can see that being one-sided. Uh eye contact, natural or something you have to think about?
SPEAKER_01I think I do a pretty good job with eye contact. It's interesting when I when I learned about presentation skills and I was facilitating for groups of 20 to 2,000 these ideas about eye contact and your energy, how it flows through your body when you're having these interactions. I think when you realize how much information you get in direct eye contact and how much also you give in terms of your passion, I really work hard to try to look in the eyes, but you might tell me differently. I'll watch this video and we'll see.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Nice. Nice. Biggest communication pet peeve. Basically, what drives you crazy in business communication?
SPEAKER_01Business communication, interrupting, in a lot of communication. Interrupting is just, I've had clients that tell me, well, I interrupt because I already know where they're going and, you know, I don't want to waste time. Okay. I get that. At what cost? Yeah, at what cost? And also, do you really know where they're going? I would say maybe you do. Maybe if you're the smartest person in the room, you might. But interrupting to me just it communicates so many other things about respect and how much you value the other person and all of that. That I think it's okay to say if someone's going on a long time and you're trying to control a little bit of the room, you might say, Brian, can I stop you for one second? This is good information, but I'm really trying to hone in on X. So I think there are gentle reciprocity to redirect, correct?
SPEAKER_00Well said. Three words that describe a great conversation. Authentic, reciprocal, maybe, that there's some back and forth.
SPEAKER_01You bought two, get one free. Yeah. I mean, I was uh I think the word that's coming up is passion. Just like when two people get to talk about things that they love to talk about. I, you know, I used to, I did some work for United Airlines. I was never, I was like, I I mean, I fly United. I'm happy to get on a plane, but those people were so passionate about what they did. And it wasn't about I mean, for sure, it was about making sure the wheels were, you know, the nuts were tightened on the wheels, but it was also about we know that when the nuts are tightened on the wheels, that that's gonna help Jimmy get to see his grandma over in Virginia. Like they they understood the why really well.
SPEAKER_00It was great. That's cool. Chicago United Company. All right, United Chicago Company. Flip that one on there. What's your superpower in a conversation?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, my superpower in a conversation. I think that piece about curiosity and just wanting to know other people's stories and hear what makes them who they are. I think that's something that I do really well. When I'm focused in, when I want to do it, I really love doing that.
SPEAKER_00I'd agree. 100% agree. Uh, two more. How do you know when you genuinely connect with somebody?
SPEAKER_01A lot of that I feel like certainly at the end of the conversation, when you shake that person's hand or you hang up the Zoom or the teens call, when you shake that person's hand, whether it's at a hotel or it's at a restaurant or it's at a sales meeting, and they look you in the eye and they say thank you, you know, or thanks for your time, or thank you for coming, I think there's a lot communicated there versus the person that just is gets up, picks up their papers, they're like, Yep, thanks a lot, appreciate it, and just kind of don't look at you and just walk out the door. So I think it's that at the end, even if you don't get the handshake, I think you'll know whether you made that connection or not.
SPEAKER_00And maybe it leads into the very last question. If you could leave every person you meet with one feeling, what is it?
SPEAKER_01What I'm practicing right now, Brian, is, and this is entering into my guiding principles. And it's a weird word to say because I was never comfortable with it. You could ask my wife, but I want them to feel loved. I really do. I want them to feel like they were seen and that that they were loved.
SPEAKER_00That's good. For the ADD guy here, attention distraction disorder, my guiding push point now is presence. Yeah. Truly being present in that moment, which unlocks a bunch of things and no and could end up in love. That's a good one there. Before
Where To Find The Book
SPEAKER_00I let you go here, Keith, where can people find you? Find the book. If they're interested in your coaching with VeraSpark, help help us understand that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, lots of places. I mean, the book, woo-hoo. Available right there too. Yeah. Available on Amazon, Sparking Your Inner Leader, available at you know, many bookstores. And if they don't have it, they'll be happy to order it for you. So it's available there. I think there's a digital version. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So there's that version is available as well. And then in terms of finding me, I mean, there's lots of ways. LinkedIn, you can find me Keith Lewis, or I think if you put in LinkedIn, Keith D. Lewis is kind of the way my name is, and VeraSpark V-E-R-A-S-P-A-R-K. If you put those into LinkedIn, I should pop up immediately. My website is veraspark.com. So lots of information there about coaching. You can get my contact information there. You can reach out to me there. You can see the speaking that I do. You can see the workshops and simulations that I still do. So lots of good information there, lots about coaching there and the tools that I use. So feel free to go there as well. And hopefully one day you'll see this uh podcast on my website as well. I'll take the link that Brian shares with me.
SPEAKER_00There you go. There you go. And I'll make sure for those are I'll put the links in the show notes, website, LinkedIn, and uh also for the book for ease of purpose of being able to find you there. So Keith, thanks for your time. Thanks for your friendship. Thanks for mentoring and uh encouraging me to be better in my own life. And I'm very grateful for that. So until we meet again, my friend, thanks for the time. Love your angle, love your energy, and uh so much there for both seller or those in service, but specifically the leader as well. So I really hope that that uh lands well for everybody.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me, Brian. And good luck to you and good luck to all those people out in your podcast land. I'm sure they're gonna do great work. And if I could be of help, tell them to reach out to me. And certainly I know I'll run into you again soon. In a city near you. That's right. Thanks, Keith.
SPEAKER_00See ya.
Next Episode Preview And CTAs
SPEAKER_00I'd like to thank Keith Lewis for this conversation that was for leadership, sales, service people on the front lines. And although episode 30 is officially in the books, In N Out and Nobody Got Hurt, let's give a quick sneak peek of episode 31, where we're gonna do something a little bit different. Every so often a book lands on my desk that, well, this kind of stops me cold. Not because it's necessarily new information, but because it puts language to something that we've been teaching here with Elite Road Rover and Elite Business Connector for years. When that happens, I want to bring it to you because the best thing I can do as your host is to find the books that parallel what you're already learning and show you exactly how they connect together, where they confirm and where they add to your game. And that's where episode 31 is heading. It's a full book breakdown. The author's five biggest ideas laid out side by side with the first five minutes framework, so you can not only see what they're saying, but also how it pays off for you in your next conversation. In terms of best-selling author, he's a keynote speaker, 17 years of television experience interviewing the most powerful people in the world. He sat down, did some research, documented these habits, and wrote a book called Every Conversation Counts. So if you ever wondered whether the work you're putting in into the first five minutes of a conversation actually matters, episode 31 is going to answer that question loud and clear. Now, don't forget to follow and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. And if you're watching on YouTube, thanks for that. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a comment. Let us know what resonates with you. Lastly, download the free cheat sheet resource from my interview with Keith Lewis. This is exactly how to apply what you learned today, an action item that elite business professionals will do and go that extra mile to begin to implement into their business lives. And I encourage you, download episodes. And the reason why. Many of you guys have to travel into work into the office, maybe it's just for a couple of times a day. Maybe you're driving to a sales call. Whatever it is, these are your times to work on you. And listening to the podcast can be a great reason to be able to do that. And also having those downloads really, really matters. Quick access and you're off to the races. Well, until next time, keep improving your communication, conversation, and connection skills every day. And it's my Chicago Bears chance, good, better, best. Never let it rest till your good gets better and your better gets best. As my dad always used to say, thanks for coming. But most of all, thanks for leaving. I'm out. You got this now. Now is your time to do something with this episode. And always remember to leverage your first five minutes to build connection, trust, and influence. You got this now.
