COACH'D
Join us on COACH’D, a podcast where the some of the world's top athletes, coaches, and performance experts come together to share their stories, insights and secrets to what has made them successful in their own right.
Think of it as a "locker room" chat — unfiltered, raw, and real. We dive deep into all things athletic performance, wellness, science and culture.
COACH'D
Dr. Jo Brown - "Transformative Biomechanics: The Secret Behind Noah Lyles' Olympic Success"
What if addressing just one simple biomechanical issue could transform an athlete's performance from average to top 0.1%?
In this episode of COACH'D, we welcome the brilliant Dr. Jo Brown, one of the key pieces behind Noah Lyles' incredible success. Jo takes us through her fascinating journey in the high-stakes world of elite athletics, revealing the intricate preparation and teamwork that go into Olympic-level competition. As the vital connector of psychologists, chiropractors, and other experts, Jo's role is indispensable in ensuring Lyles' peak performance.
Jo dives into the integration of sports psychology, strength and conditioning, and biomechanics, sharing how initial hands-on techniques build trust and motivate athletes. The episode highlights Noah Lyles' transformational journey, where addressing simple biomechanical tweaks significantly enhanced his race starts, illustrating the impact of even minor adjustments. We also discuss the character traits that set legendary athletes apart, with insights from the Australian Open and the unique qualities of sports icons like Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal.
Finally, we explore the concept of tackling personal blind spots, a crucial component for high-level athletes, and how they proactively seek experts to enhance their performance. Jo sheds light on the psychological and physical challenges athletes face when transitioning between sporting cultures, such as moving from the intense U.S. environment to a more laid-back Australian setting.
Wrapping up with her experience in writing a high-performance book, Jo reflects on her 25 years in the field, promising a captivating read filled with unique insights from across the globe. Tune in for an engaging, insightful episode that promises to develop your understanding of elite sports performance.
You can follow Jo here:
Instagram: @performancestatedrjo
LinkedIn: Dr Jo Brown
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Thank-you to our sponsors Iron Edge and VALD Performance.
Iron Edge are Australia’s leading equipment supplier for all your coaching needs.
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https://open.spotify.com/show/1YJMztpYSgnPusEXB3fWcc?si=FJsWITv7QdSCSgCt3lkElw
Join us on Coached, a podcast where some of the world's top athletes, coaches and performance experts come together to share their stories, insights and secrets to what has made them successful in their own right. Think of this as a locker room chat unfiltered, raw and real. We dive deep into all things athletic performance, wellness, science and sporting culture and sporting culture. Hear from those who have played, coached and built their way to the top with athletes from the field, coaches and medical in the performance setting, or owners, managers and brands in the front office, while also getting an insider's view on my own personal experiences in this high-performance world. If you're passionate about sports, curious about the minds of champion athletes or looking for information and inspiration on your own journey, coach is the place for you. Dr Jo Brown, welcome to Coached.
Dr Jo Brown:Thanks for having me.
Jordi Taylor:Now I'm going to come out hard and fast, pun intended.
Dr Jo Brown:What is it like to train the fastest man in the world, noah Lyles? Look, there's so many words to describe the ride I've been on with Noah. Hard and fast is definitely one of them Intense, very intense. I didn't realize how intense the environment was until I stepped out of it and actually came back and did some work in Australia with beach volleyball and literally felt like I was lying on the beach, even though I was, you know, covering the whole team. So it's definitely a very intense environment and everything has to be at the very, very best and you're on your toes 100% of the time.
Jordi Taylor:With an athlete like Noah, who has so much media, so much attention, obviously at the Olympics rode the highs of the gold, then kind of was a little bit lower, with the COVID coming into the 200, where he managed to still take out bronze, which is phenomenal. What's it like being in that high-pressure situation? It's like a pressure cooker. The intensity builds, builds, builds, especially something like the Olympics, which is what, every four years, you've got to perform at your best. How does someone or an athlete like that prepare and how do you assist them to essentially perform on the one chance they have, which is maybe 100-meter final?
Dr Jo Brown:I think the biggest thing is preparing them for every eventuality right, so having a strategy for anything that could happen, positive or negative. So essentially, most of my work with NOLA was done well before the Olympics actually came around, so we started working. Noel was done well before the Olympics actually came around, so we started working together like three years before the Olympics, and so we had strategies in place, building what his body needed to be able to do. He knew how to modulate and modify his own body in real time once we got to the Olympics. So there was a lot of stress taken out of the way because he already had a plan for every eventuation and there's other people obviously in the team that play their roles as well. But mine was more preparing his body and, to a certain extent, his body and his mind. He has a psychologist, but there's a little bit of the blending of the mindset of what your body's going to do and teaching his body and his mind to work together to perform as best.
Jordi Taylor:I heard you say in an interview with Noah or a part of Noah's team, that you're like the glue. You bring everyone together. So, in your own words, what does the glue mean for an athlete like that? You know you said he has a psychologist. I'm sure he has his track coach as well. What does that mean to be the glue?
Dr Jo Brown:So as the glue how I see myself is I can kind of have that overall bird's eye view of performance. So I essentially connect the dots, like I'm the glue that connects the dots, and it's because I have skills in all those different areas. So I've done some sports psychology and some mindset coaching, some NLP, so I can help his psychologist deliver what she needs to be delivered. He also has a massage therapist and a chiropractor but I can also deliver some of those skills. He has obviously a sprints coach and he has other people influencing his biomechanics. But I work really closely with his coach in order to ensure those biomechanics are at utmost for him to perform at time and place. So, yeah, really just having a little bit of knowledge in all the areas allows me to be that glue.
Jordi Taylor:Do you ever get worried that he doesn't need you anymore because you kind of the one that wears all the hats? You know you may fit many roles. It's kind of like in footy, for example, like the utility bench player. They're so good they need to be in the team but they're too good to fit in any one position, so they sort of go everywhere, which works in favor but it can also work against them in some regard as well, and you don't seem like that. You know you mentioned chiropractor, psychologist. You don't seem like that phases you. A lot of coaches or physios, allied health, whatever, may get a little bit worried that there's other people involved. Where do you sort of sit on that?
Dr Jo Brown:I think those people that get worried, they're really insecure in themselves and I know I'm one of the best if not the best, I believe at what I do in the world. So I'm not insecure by what everyone else has to offer and Noah loves that, and that's why everyone on Noah's team are not insecure in what they do. They know their role and they know what they can deliver For me. I know that each phase with Nura is different and you know how much of an impact I'll play in the next four years.
Dr Jo Brown:I don't know at this point because, to be honest, I have taught him so well and you know he said to me not long before the Olympics he's like wow, it feels like you've been here forever, like his whole professional career. He said I've just learned so much about my body and who I am as an athlete and I understand now what needs to happen and why. So it enables him to change and modify things for himself along the way. So to a certain extent, I probably have like decreased what he needs me to do and potentially like, if he does go into run you know, the 400 or whatever that would probably be more when I would come in and look at how things might change. But interesting, interesting.
Jordi Taylor:Do you ever get and it's an interesting topic right, you do too good of a job that the athlete is essentially armed with all the tools that they need, obviously not to the same level, but probably to that point where they feel like it's lower, diminishing returns, like I've got enough to sort of hold on. How does that make you feel? Do you think that's a positive, that you've done such a good job, that you know they're off on their own and they mainly just touch base here and there? Or is it a negative for your professional career Because obviously there's financial associated to it, there's status associated to it? Like how does that sort of blend? It's like a bit of a 50-50.
Dr Jo Brown:To me it's all about onto the next right, like I'm always talk about going where I can make my biggest difference. So where's the next athlete that I can transform from not making the team to winning the Olympic gold? Like that's the kind of mission that I would go on. I'm not phased. I don't need to hang on to one athlete's success.
Dr Jo Brown:I'm about, you know, helping as many athletes as I can, and a lot of what I do now is I kind of come in as that problem solver, so that person, when someone's not improving or not making the team or they've had a major injury and just can't come back to that high performance level and I'm really passionate about this whole idea of people understand what return to play is right.
Dr Jo Brown:So they're like in basketball or football, whatever, there's return to play. But what is return to performance and what does that look like? And so I've been contacted by a number of athletes over the last few years as someone that can help them when they've got that return to play. So they're back playing in the NBA, but they're only getting 10 minutes a game because they're still not playing well, and then trying to figure out what is that performance gap, what is that thing that they need to change, and some of that might be more from a mindset point of view. It might be getting into their body a little bit more like moving with intent. It might be there's some strength deficits that haven't been picked up by their S&C and I kind of come in once again with that bird's eye view of performance and try and find their performance gap.
Jordi Taylor:Which is interesting because that sort of leads perfectly into my next sort of line of questioning is you're a performance physio that's what you describe yourself as, and I think you did a really good job of already indirectly answering what that involves. That may come across a little bit different to the traditional physio approach, or PT in the States, a physical therapist. On top of what you've already said, how would you define what you do in your role if, say, an NBA athlete reached out to you and said look, I'm interested in your services, what do you actually do?
Dr Jo Brown:I'm going to start with what I think of a performance physio is and the mindset around it, so the strategy behind it. So I start with best performance in mind, so I don't start looking at the injury or what's going wrong. I start with what is their best performance? What does that look like? What are they at their best? And then try and figure out what are the things that isn't there right now that we need to reestablish, like find that performance gap. And that isn't just what I do with my hands. So much of it is more than hands and bands people and that's using all my skills.
Jordi Taylor:That's a tagline You've got to have that.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, more than hands and bands. It's on my website, look it up, yeah, but it's using all my skills. So it's using the sports psychology. It's using, you know, my past and current efforts in strength and conditioning. It's using Chinese medicine and acupuncture. It's using biomechanics and understanding of how people move. It's movement analysis. It's all of those things. What I actually do hands-on with someone is only to supplement all those other components.
Jordi Taylor:Most of the time, and do you find that athletes respond really well to that because they're open to maybe a different way of doing things? Or are they so used to having that hands-on approach that you have to almost do more hands-on at the start but then wean them off it as you educate them? How does that usually work?
Dr Jo Brown:There's definitely a trust that's built with hands-on. So that is a big component of those first initial consults. But I'm really big on education. So if the athlete doesn't understand why something isn't happening or happening and what their limitational gap is, how can they then be motivated to then make that difference and commit and trust me? So sometimes it is proving what I can do with my hands and then showing them with an exercise and then getting them to perform and go. Oh wow, that feels so much better in a 5, 10, 15-minute period and it's like, okay, what's the next step? So definitely the hands-on component is still a large proportion of those initial consults.
Dr Jo Brown:But the plan often going forward, is more about understanding activation, intent with movement, the exercise prescription and planning and even just the order of what exercise people do. And I find so many athletes are doing exercise in the gym and they have no idea what it's for and how it corresponds to their performance. And as a performance physio use my little term again I feel that I've developed a really great capacity to transfer what someone does in the gym to their performance and I see, probably globally that's a thing that isn't happening well a lot of people can be strong, but it's not actually transferring to their performance and that's part of the education process saying like this transfers in x, y and z, can you see how this will feel work?
Jordi Taylor:are you more internally driven, so internal cues, or trying to drive them through that, or is it? Hey, this is a feeling that we want you to do when you're in the gym. Can you take that feeling onto the court or the track or anything like that? Like what sort of the if you had to have like an overarching philosophy? Maybe that's more common than not.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, I think it's very much individual for me, so depending on the level of understanding of the athlete and the intelligence of the athlete as well. So I love working with really intelligent athletes because they can pick it up really fast and you know someone like Noah. I can explain this is what's going on, this is what I need you to feel in order to be more active in these muscle groups or whatever, and then he can like, literally apply that and I can reproduce that feeling the next day on the track, in a start, for instance, and he's able to do that, but not all athletes can do that, so it just depends really on the athlete, but I'm definitely education and feeling are two of the big components of it, and intent, obviously.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, Easy to get a higher level smarter athlete better or getting a lower level, less in-tuned athlete better. One has a smaller window of opportunity because they are so highly trained and so switched on. The other has such a large base, so much room for opportunity. What would you find would be the easier one?
Dr Jo Brown:I think it's easier to get with that lower level athlete, that big change straight away. It's like losing weight, right, you can get those first 10 kilos off in the last three take forever, and I think it's the same when we're trying to make these difference in athletes. But when I love that. You know, finding that 1% in the world is 1%, like that's the biggest challenge ever. And you know, someone like Noah is like well, he's such an amazing, talented athlete, but how can we find that 1%? And literally for the last three years we had that, you know, intent of. You know, no one remembers who won the gold at Worlds, but they remember who won the gold medal in the 100 at the Olympics and that was the mission and that came down to being able to break down a start. And obviously he's still not the world's best starter, but now he's competitive and that was always the goal.
Jordi Taylor:Well, it's not bad when you have a gold medal around your neck, is it?
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, exactly.
Jordi Taylor:If you don't mind diving into it, and obviously not too in-depth, but Noah's 1%. What was that? What was the thing? Even if it was a bit more general, what was the thing that was just so obvious or maybe took a little bit of time for you. That's like that's the thing. And once you unlock that, next thing happened.
Dr Jo Brown:It was actually really simple with Noah. The first part right. So and this was very much early days of me working with him and Noah hired me as his physio to stop him getting injured and deal with the stuff that happened on the road if he had an issue. And then he quickly realized I had other skills and I started you know, speaking up to your mind if I comment here, et cetera and we were in the gym and I was just looking at his left foot just going, oh my gosh, how can this guy be At this point? He was just won bronze at the Tokyo Olympics. I was like, how can this guy be At this point? He was just won bronze at the Tokyo Olympics.
Dr Jo Brown:I was like how can this guy run this fast when that foot is so weak? It's got no control. And in my head I was like, well, I'm sure if it's that weak, he's got no calf raise. I said, hey, do you mind if we have a look at this and we go over to a wall, because I knew we wouldn't be able to do it just in freestanding? And I said, oh, I can do a calf raise on the left. And he does. And he's like, you know, poor, poor, poor calf raise. He does it on the right. It's still pretty average and he's like, oh my gosh, like I only got half as high and I was like yeah.
Dr Jo Brown:And he's like, let me try it again, because that'll work.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, yeah, let me try it again. I Let me try again. I'll just like think about it more. And I was like, yeah, duh. And then I explained what that meant and what that might mean. And then I said, do you mind if we look at some footage? And then the next day at the track we looked at his dart and obviously his foot getting really compressed and I was like, yeah, I really think I can help you with that.
Dr Jo Brown:And then obviously, if you're getting compressed at the foot, there's power being lost out of the system. And I talk about four Ps. So there are four things that I can impact. So I can impact posture, the positions you can maintain, the power in, the power out.
Dr Jo Brown:So with Noah, it was about initially starting managing the power out, so where he was getting depressed and getting some strength so he can get more power in in that area, and then looking further up the kinetic chain. And once we were able to do that, we were able to establish that even though we could get his foot better, if we didn't change what was happening at the hip and the glutes, then it was still gonna have impact at the foot. So, um, that's been a big, huge part of what we've been working on over the last three years, and it started off as you know. We work on the position, the blocks and the first three steps, and then it's the first seven steps and where are you at 10 metres and then it becomes the first 30. And it was always about just keeping within touch on that first 10 to 30 metres and then one season high speed running.
Jordi Taylor:You know good luck, way to go. Yeah, fantastic. Two things out of that that really struck me. One you really knew the language to speak to the athlete because you understood, or understand, the sport. That probably ties back into what you were saying there at the start, like how important and how much emphasis do you place on understanding the athlete's sport to be able to have that common language. And then number two actually, no start with number one.
Dr Jo Brown:That's huge. Who actually? No start with number one? That's huge. And I intentfully, you know, really worked trying to understand the sport and track and field. I'd kind of been in and out of track and field for a long time and worked quite a lot with the Jamaican teams and Johan Blake, so I knew a lot about track and field and I think I'm a really I have a coach's eye naturally, so amazing.
Dr Jo Brown:But you know, as a physio, we're all about communication. So I think the skills that I have as a physio and being able to adapt and communicate with athletes effectively is something that you know I've been doing for 25 years, so that's just natural and picking up on the language you need to use is just part of it. And one of the greatest compliments I think I ever had was someone said to me you're the most normal person I know, with a PhD, so because I can articulate to athletes, coaches, you know other physios, but then, you know, obviously, go and speak at a conference and speak with more scientific lens. You're a bit of a chameleon, right?
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, you can blend in Like, let's be honest, the Jamaican track and field team or the Jamaican bobsled team. They're going to have very different environments. To some of the NBA players, to Noah, to then, if you're back in Australia and working with athletes here like the volleyball team.
Dr Jo Brown:Like they're probably going to get shafted or just have no buy-in, and like I talk about high performance being a way of life, and to me high performance is so much about being adaptable and flexible. So I've really developed that capacity to adapt and evolve, depending on the environment.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, Number two is you were there with Noah and you said do you mind if I add a little bit more? Now, if you're a younger physio or, say, a younger coach or whatever involved and you're just starting to learn, you may not know your opportunity when to add at the right time. So you got the number one, the opportunity when to speak up. But then, two, you have to have the knowledge base to actually address what's going on. How do you find the timings right there? Is that intuition? Is that just you know, you've been there, you've done it enough, so it's essentially just the same thing. Rinse and repeat, Like how does that come up?
Dr Jo Brown:I think initially it was a little bit more of like oh my God, I think this is an opportunity, I'm going to take it, whereas now it's just intuition and you just build the trust with the athlete and it just naturally flows and it's not even a thing that you even look for or fight for or anything. It just happens. But that's why people hire me right. They come in expecting me to kind of poke holes in what they're doing and, you know, find their performance gap.
Jordi Taylor:Essentially yeah, you mentioned eastern medicine, you mentioned NLP, a lot of different, I guess, methods that you've sort of meshed together to create the title of Performance Physio when you were going through the ranks, as in, you know, like studying, and maybe as you started to come out. That's very different to what you do now. Do you feel that you are a one of many, or a one of few, that have adapted a wider, say, toolkit or whatever you want to call it, to their approach, because they realize that maybe what we were doing before simply isn't enough and we have to add more value? Where do you sort of land on that?
Dr Jo Brown:I think I'm definitely one of a few. Sometimes I feel like a little bit of an island and recently I had this crazy idea that I was going to try and fit back into a normal physio box and realize I just don't bend like that anymore. So, uh, yeah, it's definitely one I'm. I think I'm quite unique in my skill set and what I offer people and how I think about performance. And you know, some people said, oh, maybe just call yourself a high performance consultant and I'm doing some collaborations with some people in the US and that's what they'll sell me, as you know. So it just depends a little bit on the environment.
Dr Jo Brown:But I remember years ago I was working down at Australian Open and happened to be the first female ever hired to be on the men's side of the Australian Open. So tennis is very, you know, stick to the rules and woman for woman and man for man, and they needed another person to help out the men's, and so I ended up going and working on that side and I was working between the juniors and then got to spend some time in the actual men's room and there was Federer and Nadal. Obviously they were still playing at this point and you know they're the two of the best, like legends of their sport. And I remember watching them walk around and I've always questioned what is the difference between champions of a sport and then like the legends, like what is the difference, what's so special about them? And I had this, you know, raw opportunity just to kind of hang out and watch these guys how they like did life essentially. And both Federer and Nadal learnt my name.
Dr Jo Brown:Ah, jo, like you know, noticed I was female and I was different, and even my boss at the time was like Jo, how did Federer and Nadal know your name? I was like well, they made the effort to learn it and they opened the door for me and things like that. And no one else in the top 100 really made that same effort. And I looked around and they all had the same kind of physicality. So most of the guys in the top hundred are very good tennis players and they all have good shots and all those kinds of things. But the thing that was different about Federer and Adele was who they were and how they went about life, so it's not just in the physicality of what they do. And then I was like, oh wow, if I want to work in sport and I want to help people be the best, like I've got to get all over all this other stuff and that's where I really went down a path of, you know, really figuring out what are the components of performance and how I can make my impact.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, that's a great story. Do you think that you know? You mentioned NBA players, noah Lyles, jamaican guys, girls. Do they have those same qualities? Do you think that's part of the elite or is that even we're talking about the elite of the elite?
Dr Jo Brown:I think there's an elite of elite, like a different level, that, like I said, have that real intent for every moment and then, yeah, I think you can make it to the top, but you can't stay there. So the consistency to be a legend of the sport, a people person that we all know, you need to have that mindset and that way of doing life. But I think you can win an australian open once. You can probably plan an n NBA team for a couple of seasons, but you won't be the guy that we know about.
Jordi Taylor:What do you reckon separates those guys and girls? Because you've been a part of it now and again. Multiple sports. You've seen different athletes in their prime. Some of them may be on the way out, coming up. There's got to be some commonalities, some common trends that you can sort of pick up on. You know, even you. Just the one that comes to mind straight away is like a LeBron or Tom Brady. They're the top for so long. They're older but they're still performing probably better than their younger selves. There's that continual evolution. They may have changed their game a little bit as they've gotten older as well, to suit their body. Their body's their number one asset. They're always investing back into it. They understand the importance of that and probably, finally, they've got a team around them that they understand that I can't do this alone, like I need to have my nutritionist, my psychologist, my coach, whatever it may be, to actually help me stay there, because I've only got a finite amount of time. What have you noticed?
Dr Jo Brown:so I've noticed that these people are all over what I call the four pillars of performance. So the first one is purpose and perceptions, so they're really clear on their why. The second is their planning and processes, so that's their how, and they're really stringent at seeking out whatever they need, whether that's resources, timing, you know, getting all the right things around them. Third is patterns and practice, so what they actually do and how they actually show up and execute, and they have strategies around that that are developed for every situation. And the fourth is their people and their power. So, like you said, getting the right team around them. And I think these people are really good at checking in all the time on all those four pillars so they don't leave any stone unturned. They're willing to shine a light on all aspects of their performance. And I don't know whether I'm allowed to talk about my book, but I'm just going to do a little plug.
Jordi Taylor:We're here now.
Dr Jo Brown:We're here now but literally I've just written a book called See your Elephant and the whole idea is that we all have elephants, we all have BS and blind spots that we push away and don't deal with. But these people, the top 1%, they deal with those blind spots. They hire people like me to hunt them down, hunt their elephant and deal with them in every moment. They just don't go. Oh yeah, those shots were shit or my footwork was bad in that game. They're like why, why, why. And they hire people like me to help them figure it out.
Jordi Taylor:Devil's advocate, because that's always fun. Do you think they hire people, as you said, to address those elephants, those issues, as a key focus? Or are they doubling down their strengths and just trying to minimise them, versus going head on at them? Because you've heard of athletes that may be going through, you know, rough patches and they bring people in to address the issue, but then that becomes almost their new identity and they they don't go back to the player that they were. What's your thoughts on that?
Dr Jo Brown:I I think some people definitely like it's like a clutch, right, it's just like something to hang on to and almost someone else to blame for them not performing. But then there's other athletes that are actually intentful for, like looking for the actual feedback and really want to figure out what's going on. So I think there's probably a mix of both and that comes down to a personality thing really. Yeah, and I think stage and career Like I really think those guys that, to be honest, we probably all know that they're on their way out and they're kind of just trying to find a way to hang in there and all those kind of things and not dealing with the fact that, you know, maybe this is their last one or two seasons, versus the younger guy that, just you know, really can't figure it out and has hit a bump in a road and wants to figure it out.
Jordi Taylor:You talk about elephants. What's your biggest athlete that you would love to work with? Get your hands on not well, I guess as well and work with this skill set that you've got, knowing that it could make such a big difference, just to put that out there into the universe.
Dr Jo Brown:I actually have so many. I must admit there's a few NBA. I don't want to name names, but a few NBA players I definitely kind of see and know their history and know a little bit about them and I'd love to get my hands on them. I just think we can really get some better performance results, but longevity in terms of career as well, and a lot of people getting repeatedly injured and I kind of question what's going on there.
Dr Jo Brown:But back in Australia I really would like to have the opportunity to work with some of our high-level pros here. So I think, sadly, a lot of our AFL and NRL players get injured and they get sent to the US or even Germany. I know quite a few go to Europe and we've got amazing people and therapists, coaches here that I think we can do a really great job. It's just setting up the environment for that to happen and people knowing who to go.
Dr Jo Brown:I know that I'm in a few little black books in the US for a few players and things and I don't know what goes on here because I haven't really been around. But I really would like to have the opportunity to have some of the Aussie athletes instead of them having to go overseas.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, it's an interesting conversation even in that on its own. What do you really? You said you're not here, so I understand that part, but is there a reason that you think that the Australian athletes, particularly in team sports, will go to dubai or um, us or uk for specific rehab, um versus being you know? Just go to gold coast, for example, or or sunshine coast or wherever?
Dr Jo Brown:you know, I mean, I like, I think there's, uh, that belief. You know, the grass is greener and it's amazing if you just water the grass at home and it actually grows way better. So I think that's an element of it. I think there's probably a belief that some of the, let's say, edge of sports medicine, therapies, injectables, all those kind of things that might be available or more readily available overseas and more condoned and it's easier just to go there and no one necessarily is looking at what's going on. Yeah, but it's still. We in Australia have definitely a lot of the best physios, snc, great coaches, even great sports psychologists, and these guys are all heading overseas.
Jordi Taylor:Oh, it's interesting because we get told we're the leaders in sports science in particular as well the US, uk or always all over.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, sorry, I didn't mention sports science, that's okay.
Jordi Taylor:The three of them out there are devastated.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, I know, I'm joking, adzi, I look after you.
Jordi Taylor:So I believe part of it as well is it's good to get the athlete completely out of the environment, so we'll send them to the US for a holiday.
Jordi Taylor:And that psychological component of the rehab journey is probably understated. So say, if you're a high-level rugby league player and I don't know really anywhere in Australia that you might be able to go and be fully undercover, versus you go overseas, no one's around you, no one knows who you are. You've got fantastic coaches there. Obviously you're pretty bought into the process. That the club's willing to invest, you know, or your sponsor's willing to invest a large amount of money for you to go over there and do your rehab journey, but you actually get to focus on the rehab journey because no one's around to bother you, kind of thing. That's one of the things that I think is probably understated and we've kind of often feels like just common sense, like if I'm a big rugby league player, no one knows me in america, really let me get out there, let me do my rehab, let me double down on it, come back and sort of see how we go.
Dr Jo Brown:That's just my little two yeah, yeah, and I was.
Dr Jo Brown:That was the other point I was going to say is, yeah, removing yourself from other members of the team and other people, being discretionary in terms of what's going on and like how you're going about it as well I think is important and I think what people don't realize is rehab is such a huge mental strain as well, and my experience working with a couple of NBA players and kind of trying to get them back really quickly for an injury, it has to start with the mindset. Literally the first thing we do is like, okay, what's our mantra around this? Like, what are we actually pushing for here? And it's not about the injury, it's about how they're thinking about the whole process.
Jordi Taylor:Well, I think that's a really interesting area to maybe dive into. Say, I'm an NBA player. Obviously I'm far taller, far more athletic. Just picture that for a second.
Dr Jo Brown:I got you, I got you.
Jordi Taylor:Say I'm battling some sort of maybe patellar tendonitis or something like that. So something some sort of maybe um patellar tendonitis or something like that, so something not too serious, but it's enough to hinder my performance where I may not be as effective on the court. I'm maybe a bit of a role player, so I'm only getting 8, 12, 15 minutes at the best of time, so I need to be on for those minutes. Where do you sort of start with that? Like it's not a debilitating injury in regards to like I can still play, but it's enough that I'm not performing at the level I need to, and, to be honest, you could get axed at any point in time in a sport like in the NBA or NFL. So where do you sort of start with that?
Dr Jo Brown:So I start with a couple of things. So I start like definitely with like how they're thinking about it, how long it's been bothering them will change their mindset and how it's been impacting their performance, and trying to change the way they're thinking about it. And then I actually go from mine to looking at the move and look at how they're moving, trying to see if we can change how they move with just like basic little cues and activation process. So it might be, for instance, getting the glutes to turn on better. We're not going to do crazy, crazy, crazy heavy glute work, necessarily not necessarily a PAP scenario, just like some isometric activation, trying to get them a little bit more aware of how they're moving, working on quality movement. And sometimes it sounds stupid, but when they can just get quality movement and change how they're thinking about their knee, and as soon as you start getting someone to think about something else, so if they're thinking about activating their glutes and thinking about their knee, all of a sudden they're like, oh, actually that felt pretty good and then it's just building confidence around that and I think people really underestimate the impact of someone's confidence in terms of them going to play at that elite level.
Dr Jo Brown:And then, especially if you've been sidelined for a little bit or you're not getting many minutes. So then that whole like am I really good enough? Am I still valuable for the team, all those kind of things, and what I tend to have to coach them on, is that okay, you just need to be a little bit patient. We need to get you back to your best, not trying to rush. So I see a lot of people in that return to sport process or return to performance, trying to rush from just being able to jog to sprinting, so to speak, and so there's a lot of the quality get lost in the process. So I'm all about the quality and making sure you've got a foundation of quality movement quality, strength, quality activation process, good biomechanics and it's amazing, when you have good biomechanics, how we can alleviate pain.
Jordi Taylor:Essentially you're chunking each of those phases into just smaller steps so it makes it feel more achievable. Do you find that in that chunking process, say for a high-level athlete like an NBA, and then just for some people that may not be aware, you'd be very surprised how untrained some of these guys are, in the most respectful way possible, because they've maybe gone through high school, college and, being good, they can get away with maybe underperforming, especially in the physical side of things that may catch up to them. When the schedule is so condensed back-to-back travel, all that sort of stuff Do you find you have to do maybe some trivial or novel stuff they haven't done before to get that buy-in to feel like, hey, this is new, this is exciting, I so it's kind of like, do you go too far away from your principles to sort of get that little bit of entertainment at the start Like how do you manage that there?
Dr Jo Brown:Once again, it depends. It depends on the player, but definitely there's an element where they have to feel like they're getting value and trust right. So I need to do something in the first time I meet them that they feel less pain and feel like they can function better.
Jordi Taylor:So a quick win is really important.
Dr Jo Brown:Quick wins are really important. And then it's like, okay, now we're going to strip that back, and now I'm going to talk about balls to forehead and getting your pelvic floor working, and they look at me like I'm crazy. I'm like, okay, let's just do that and then try that jump again. They're like, oh wow, that was so much easier and lots of video footage, all those kind of things, so they can see biomechanically what's happening Whenever we can measure something, and they can see numbers on the board and the number's changing straight away. That's really important as well. But the feeling and the trust happens first. So I go feeling trust and then it's about measure, monitor, modify, maintain. Back to the start.
Jordi Taylor:Great, and you are a bit of a like gypsy physio oh, dagger in the heart. We don't really have a place right. You're always moving, you're always traveling. Okay, I see where you go with that gypsy. I get. I thought you made it like I was stealing from like no, no, you're moving, you're a nomad physio there you go, a little bit of a nomad, yes you're moving all the time yes um, that is really interesting because you don't have a hardcore clinic so you're not say set up and you've got all your say testing equipment, all your tools, all your fun stuff.
Jordi Taylor:You know at any point in time I can bring the athlete in, we can, we can do this, so we can do that. So you kind of makes you re-evaluate your processes because it's a bit more bare bones. Yeah, if you had to take a couple of things with you on the road to a young physio that may be just jumping out and sort of doing a bit of this sort of stuff with maybe a team or even an individual athlete, you've got a bag, it's seven kilos. You're flying virgin, virgin for the sponsor. What would you take on that plane or that car tribe, just so you know you've got enough stuff in there that you're going to be able to do really good quality, so something. Maybe we can get some measurements with you.
Dr Jo Brown:Know, I don't know you, you tell me look, I'd love to take force plates around the globe with me, but realistically it's not a thing. Um, I've been working quite a bit with output and their accelerometer data lately, and so that's being quite good, because it's like literally a tiny little sensor. Um, yeah, I, uh gosh, I would love to take a force frame. That's not a thing. Yeah, I'm probably more gonna go with video analysis now, so I've just started doing a bit of work with view motion, so they're you know view motion, yes.
Dr Jo Brown:So, um, I really love the work that they do and I think you know we can get that with five cones. I really love the work that they do and I think you know we can get there with five cones and an iPhone and a tripod. So that's probably where I'm heading and then using output in terms of getting some of the other data.
Jordi Taylor:And you marry that up with your obviously treatment process. Your hands are with you for free.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, and then your functional movement assessment, all those kind of things. So I love a good functional movement assessment, all those kind of things. So I love a good functional movement assessment. I'm really big on the foot and pelvic connection, so do quite a thorough foot and pelvic assessment Look at my slings, all those kind of things. So I probably have that merging of, to be honest, the functional movement data, movement analysis and then my clinical approach and then I can get that force plate data normally from someone else. So, like all the Inverguys, all those kind of people have all that, if someone is using Catapult regularly and there's like some long-term data, I'm always interested in like seeing what their tendencies are. But the tendencies I can, like I said, I can normally get data from somewhere else, but you would be surprised some of those bigger teams don't have any data on anything.
Jordi Taylor:Then there's a variety of reasons. Yeah, okay, so you've got your objective data coming from, whether that be some of your testing equipment, such as the output device, force plates, if you've got access to them, gps or accelerometers, if you've got access to them. Gps or accelerometers, if you've got access to those as well for indoor. Then you've got, obviously, your subjective, so your functional movement screen, all that sort of stuff that you see when you're talking to teams in particular, because I think this is where practitioners may feel like they have to over-emphasize and overstate their position to feel like they are valued and valuable. What sort of rough ratio do you find is like, really accepted? Because a lot of people will just say, oh well, that's your own opinion. So then you've got to sort of back it up a little bit with some sort of data, like how do you usually go about that process?
Dr Jo Brown:I think it's a bit of 50-50. So I've kind of I guess I've got runs on the board and I've got proven track record of like getting results. So if I can get a subjective result instantly and then get objective data to back it up, that's kind of generally the process and how it works.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, nice, okay, you mentioned it before. You don't fit in a box anymore. You don't feel like the normal physio clinic is really your, your go-to. You're not a gypsy, you're a nomad physio. You're a nomad physio, so you're always on the move. How have you found adjusting back into now you're in Australia a little bit more less travel, adjusting back into that normal clinic-style approach? Has it been like you've got people at the door knocking you down because you've been working with all these fantastic athletes? How has that process been?
Dr Jo Brown:It's actually been a really confronting process. So it's a little bit of how do you go from working with the fastest man on the planet to working with the everyday athlete that has no runs on the board and has no real big goals or anything like that, and to be honest, it's that pressure cooker, that intensity that I swim back. Working with Noah is what I love and you know, some of my favourite moments in sport have been when I've been challenged and there's been a TV camera in my face and I've got to make, you know, a really big decision in the moment. So coming back to home base in Australia has been really tricky and trying to figure out where I fit now and how do I use my skills, you know, to the best of my ability that fills my cup up and then makes a difference for other people. So it's a little bit of a process at the moment.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, definitely don't fit in that clinic. You know seven to seven, you know, coming in for a calf strain. I'm more that person, that problem-solver person If you can't figure out what's going on, give me a call, type of thing and really working in that space of return to pay, to return to performance when people are getting stuck in that process, a lot of track and field athletes definitely reaching out and saying, hey, can you make me run fast like no one else? And obviously no one can run fast like no one else apart from no one else. Yeah, but yeah, just trying to figure out where my skill set best fits and yeah, we'll see what happens over the next six 12 months.
Jordi Taylor:Do you reckon it's a cultural difference US primarily, where you spend a lot of time versus Australia? Is that a key thing that there is just so much more intensity around the sporting culture as well, because it's so much more money, there's endorsements, there's more media, there's everything going on there, versus Australia is obviously far more laid back. Obviously there's levels to it. We're a bit behind in regards to that, but there's still plenty of media attention, still plenty going on. Just the intensity just isn't the same.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, I think the intensity and we just don't have the numbers of athletes right. I don't know. In my head the other day I was going I wonder how many professional athletes there are in the US compared to Australia, and it's got to be 1, thousand times more in the US at least, than here in Australia.
Dr Jo Brown:At least so, yeah, maybe 10,000 times, I don't know, but it's such a different environment, like the numbers aren't on the board here. So then it's just figuring out who are the people that value my services. And you know everyone says, oh, what's the point of value? Right?
Jordi Taylor:And it's like literally figuring out the people that have value for my services, the people that want to be the best, and they might not be the best yet, but they have a trajectory and a plan to be that do you find that might be something to do with your messaging in regards to when you're talking to athletes here parents, coaches that you have to be a little bit different with that messaging to make it land so it's a bit more familiar to what they're used to at the start than you can do your magic as you go along?
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, I think people just aren't used to the intensity and things being done a certain way. It's very much so In the US. They're very open to me utilising all my skills and whatever I can do to help a person to make a difference. They don't really care, whereas here it's like, oh, you're a physio and you're going to rub my calf. I was like, well, no, actually you need to strengthen your foot first and your glutes are switched off, so we need to turn them on. They look at me like I'm crazy, can't you just rub my calf? So it's just, yeah, an evolution in education and probably, like you're saying, me determining what my process and my education to my clients is.
Jordi Taylor:I find it's interesting. You would imagine right that if people know who you are, they know you're practising, you're working with these phenomenal athletes, that there's a correlation between that and everyday work would be just be be flat biggie. But it's really interesting that there may be. But there also may not be. Like so, what would you say to the younger physio that goes I really want to work with the next Noah Lyles because it's going to accelerate my career. I'm going to blow up, going to be famous, going to be traveling the world. I'm going to be all over the place. Where does that actually? What's the reality of that? Because I think you've done it firsthand. You've lived out of a suitcase. For some reason, you wrote a book at the same time. I don't know why.
Dr Jo Brown:So what's that reality? Like All that other time, I had fear. Yeah, I think the reality is you need a long-term game plan. So I basically said yes to Noah, kept on saying yes, we're on this amazing, crazy ride, you know. And he just kept on ticking boxes, you know.
Dr Jo Brown:I remember we were in Boston start of 23 and it was negative 30 something outside and he was running a 60 and Noah's never been any good at a 60. He's always had a poor start and he basically had a little bit of a groin niggle and I said it's fine, you know, just go and run. And he whispered something in my ear around you know, I better do all right, otherwise your job's on the line. Just jokingly, you know. And he went off and ran a PB and he comes running back and he's like, yeah, effing got the job. You know, the job's yours, keep the job, kind of thing.
Dr Jo Brown:And no one ever saw Noah as someone that would ever be competitive in the 60 or the 100, you know. And all of a sudden he's second at worlds this year in the 60 and then 100 at the Olympics. And I know he's credited me in numerous interviews like, oh, what happened? How come all of a sudden you're competitive and he says that you know, I hired this physio to stop me being injured and she told me I had to work on my weaknesses. And now I'm, you know, the second fastest man in the world, over 60. And you know, that's the journey that I go on with people, but I never had a. Okay, I can't do that forever. He's not going to need me forever. What's the next step? I hadn't thought about it until post-Olympics, sitting at home on the centre and going ooh lucky, I've got my book.
Jordi Taylor:It's interesting I'm a shocker for it being caught up in the moment and maybe the week ahead, not the next step. What's coming, what's going on? My partner's phenomenal at that. That's where she'll call me out very quickly on that sort of stuff which you need that balance right, because I think it's really important to me in the moment because that means you get to, um, enjoy it, you get to ride those highs and lows, you really are invested. But when that that door sort of shuts or closes behind you, you're like, oh shit, I got, I got nothing that I'm really on the front foot for.
Dr Jo Brown:I have to build now back into it, versus I'm going from here to here, I'm flying, and I think like to, I could not have been in the environment giving at the intensity I was. If I had another plan, though, if that makes sense Like if I was already thinking about the back door and how I was going to get out the back door, I wouldn't have been 100% intentful in the moment. So I think there's, yes, like I can hear what you're saying as well, but for me, I don't think I could have given 100. Like the plan was always like let's just go and get this 100 gold medal, you know? So yeah, and now just I'll build it up.
Jordi Taylor:Well it kind of makes my next question redundant. But what is next Like? What do you see is the evolution for you? You've got the book coming out. Do you have a rough date when?
Dr Jo Brown:that's gonna. So the book is out 20 I think it's 28th of january in stores, but there'll be pre-orders and stuff online.
Jordi Taylor:Very exciting. What? What do you think like the, the old elevator pitch? If someone wants to pick up the book, what? What's the thing they're going to take away from it? One or two things the.
Dr Jo Brown:I think think the biggest thing I'm going to take away from it is your own BS, is what's standing between you and your best performance, and when you can deal with your own BS, in the end it's just you and learning yeah nice, and you would say that's not just for athletes, right?
Dr Jo Brown:No, that's for everyone and you know my book publishers love it because it's a book for everyone. But all the metaphors of high-performance sports and where did the elephant come from? So, literally I did a speaking course, I was doing all this stuff with Noah on YouTube and everything. So I was like, oh, I need to get the whole speaking thing down, pat, when I did a speaking course, you needed to come up with like a different idea to be able to then pitch and do a speech on the last day. And I always talk about finding your performance gap and I was talking about connecting the dots and everything and it all of a sudden just came to me as a dot to dot, as an elephant, and when you connect the dots you can see the elephant. And then I was like see the elephant, find your performance gap. And then that was what I rolled with Nice.
Dr Jo Brown:And then the publishers changed that, and the publishers just you know, developed it into what is obviously a saleable book.
Jordi Taylor:But yeah, Just quickly on that, the process of writing a book. You're very knowledgeable up top. How hard is it to get up top to a laptop or pen and paper Like? What was that process like?
Dr Jo Brown:Definitely so when I was in those high-performance environments. So when I was with Noah or with an NBA player or whatever, like super easy, you're in the environment, you're living it day in, day out and just I could write like chapter after chapter when I wasn't in that environment and like came back to Sunshine Coast or whatever, it was a whole lot harder to write because all of a sudden you're removed from that high-performance environment. But yeah, it essentially got. Got to summarize a lot of things that I've learned over 25 years and 19 sports at international level for seven different countries. Got to put that all kind of out on paper and a lot of cultural differences and you know different sports and different energies and different intensities. So, um, I don't want to give too much away about the book but, um, people can read it.
Jordi Taylor:That's a smart tactic.
Dr Jo Brown:Yes, very smart tactic.
Jordi Taylor:Thank you very much for jumping on. I hope that for those that aren't familiar with what you've done, that this is just the tip of the iceberg, because there is plenty of content out there that you've done in the past some phenomenal talks, which I'm sure, as the book probably gets closer to launch, you'll probably be out there a little bit more and you'll be front-facing and doing a bit of promotional work. So really looking forward to that. Obviously, the book is going to be amazing. It will be amazing, and can't wait to see that and get my hands on that as well. So thank you very much.
Dr Jo Brown:I think you'll get a signed copy.
Jordi Taylor:Oh, wow, from the gypsy herself.
Dr Jo Brown:Yeah, yeah, if I'm the same catcher.
