COACH'D
Join us on COACH’D, a podcast where the some of the world's top athletes, coaches, and performance experts come together to share their stories, insights and secrets to what has made them successful in their own right.
Think of it as a "locker room" chat — unfiltered, raw, and real. We dive deep into all things athletic performance, wellness, science and culture.
COACH'D
Dan Haesler - "Transforming Nathan Cleary's Mindset: Winning Cultures & Balancing Identity In Elite Sports"
Join us for a conversation with Dan Hasler, a leading expert in sports psychology, as we explore the transformative shift in how elite athletes prepare mentally for success.
Discover why top athletes like Nathan Cleary and Shaun Johnson are turning to mental skills training, not just for overcoming challenges but as a core component of their training regimen. We'll uncover how self-discovery and continuous improvement are becoming as crucial as physical preparation in the quest for excellence, and how athletes are now taking charge of their mental wellness to enhance their performance.
We'll also dive into the complex dynamics of identity and environment in an athlete's journey. Hear about the challenges of separating personal identity from professional achievements and the pressures that come from societal and familial expectations. Dan shares insights into how athletes can cultivate a balanced sense of self-worth and confidence, emphasising the role of a supportive network. The episode offers a candid look at how mental resilience is influenced by one's upbringing and environment, and how setting boundaries can foster healthier interactions, especially in the high-pressure world of competitive sports.
Finally, we take a closer look at what it takes to build and sustain a high-performance team culture. Through engaging discussions, learn how consistency in behavior and alignment with community values are key to a team's success. Dan provides valuable insights into managing conflicts of interest and fostering trust within sports organisations, while also touching on the importance of mental skills resources for coaches.
Whether you're an aspiring athlete, coach, or simply intrigued by sports psychology, this episode is packed with lessons and inspiration for your personal and professional growth.
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https://open.spotify.com/show/1YJMztpYSgnPusEXB3fWcc?si=FJsWITv7QdSCSgCt3lkElw
Join us on Coached, a podcast where some of the world's top athletes, coaches and performance experts come together to share their stories, insights and secrets to what has made them successful in their own right. Think of this as a locker room chat unfiltered, raw and real. We dive deep into all things athletic performance, wellness, science and sporting culture and sporting culture. Hear from those who have played, coached and built their way to the top with athletes from the field, coaches and medical in the performance setting, or owners, managers and brands in the front office, while also getting an insider's view on my own personal experiences in this high-performance world. If you're passionate about sports, curious about the minds of champion athletes or looking for information and inspiration on your own journey, coach is the place for you.
Jordi Taylor:Dan Hasler, yep, welcome to Coach. Thanks very much for having me, mate, very excited to speak to you today when you've got a pedigree of athletes that you are known to work with at a very high level. We're talking some of the best players in the competitions, the best players of their generations Sean Johnson's, nathan Cleary's. Why do those sort of athletes reach out to you?
Dan Haesler:I think there's different reasons for different athletes. So in Nathan's case, for example, I'm engaged by the Penrith Panthers, so he can't get away from me. Got in there, yeah, like he tries to walk away and I just chase after him. No, no. And to be honest as well with Shawnee, that was through an existing relationship I had with the Sharks and when things moved on, when he moved on, when I moved on from the Sharks, we just maintained that relationship and I think the bottom line is, you know, the, the people are at the top of their game, understand that it's. It's all about just continual self-discovery, about continual exploration of what's at the edge of their ability, what's at the edge of their understanding of their capacity. And certainly in my field, like the mental skills space, what I've, what I've learned, is that everyone knows how important it is, but very few people actually take a deliberate approach to it. In the panthers case and in nathan's case, we do.
Dan Haesler:In sean's case, um, and what we're starting to see, and I think it's because, if I'm being honest with things like this, where you know this space is now being more normalized. You know you, yeah, kobe Bryant always spoke about it. You know Jordan would talk about mindset stuff, but I think even when they were doing it, it was kind of like uh, yeah, but that's them, you know. But now, you know, I've got a 16 year old lad who's, uh, pursuing a career in sport and it's, it's as normal to him as nutrition is, you know. It's as normal to him as as doing your, your, your sprint training, um, so, yeah. So I think more and more athletes now are going oh, okay, yeah, maybe I will have a look at that. I reckon he maybe five, ten years ago it was almost sort of seen as, oh, you only need that if you're struggling, whereas now I think people are seeing it as a genuine performance enhancer.
Jordi Taylor:I think that's a really important point. The struggling side, right Like athletes, are definitely now far more proactive than reactive. So instead of waiting for their career start to fall to pieces or off-field dramas or whatever else where they, then you know they have to check into rehab. I mean, that's the extreme right.
Jordi Taylor:Versus you know what. Maybe I'm just not feeling 100% with something to do with my performance. I'm going to be on the front foot and reach out, try to get it early, just like I would with my speed training off-season, as you mentioned there. You know that might be an area of focus versus waiting for worst case scenario to happen. Is that something you would start to say? I truly believe athletes are way smarter now than what we give them credit for, especially in sort of like this sort of space when they're looking at what can I add to my toolkit? What can I add that the other players aren't doing around me?
Dan Haesler:Again I think yeah. So broadly speaking, I don't know, I'm not sure if smart's the right word, but what I would say, no and I'm not saying they're not smart.
Dan Haesler:Just to be clear, what I'm saying is I think they're just more informed. It's just more out there, you know. So you look at the netflix docos. You look at um, you know. So I'm just watching um starting five. You know, and you look at the amount of work that these athletes are at the top of the game, at the, in the top of the world, right. So NBA, the elite of the elite in terms of money and preparation and all that, and just the amount of work that they do on their own. They've got their own trainers, they've got their own nutritionists, their own chefs that I think you know.
Dan Haesler:Jimmy Butler's got his own barista right, you know that's taking things to the extreme right, but it's this essence of having ownership of your career, and I think you don't need to be a millionaire to have ownership of your career.
Dan Haesler:What ownership of your career means is understanding that, of course, one way of having an athletic career is just wait to be told and do everything you're told and do it as well as you can and then produce. That's one way to have a career. Another way to have a career is do everything you're told by your coaching staff, but also be driving it yourself. And that's where I think these athletes that really do set themselves apart. Sometimes they might be seen as a little bit out there, sometimes they might be seen as a little bit bullish, or some coaches certainly don't like it, right, but the best coaches understand that if you want an athlete to own the moment, they have to own their game, they have to own who they are, they have to own their performance, they have to own their edges, everything. And so yeah to your question. I just think that it's just becoming more of a commonplace narrative in not just elite sport but the emerging pathways as well.
Jordi Taylor:You talk about like basketball US that's my bread and butter, love it. You talk about like Michael Jordan mentality, the Kobe mentality Beyonce's another great example of this Like when they go and they perform, they put on almost a mask and who they are on the basketball court. Like Kobe turned into the Black Mamba, you know, beyonce turns into Sasha Fierce. An example Is that where they're using that, as this is where I walk onto the field, the court, the pitch, whatever it is the stage, I'm a different person. This is who I am times 100, like it amplifies everything. So like you were talking about going back to like example there before with Nathan when he crosses that white line. Talking about going back to like example there before with nathan when he crosses that white line, does he change into someone different or does he always still say nathan cleary, the one that you know off the field?
Dan Haesler:um, good question. I think you'd have to ask him to truly know that. But what I would say is um, athletes like nathan um and anyone you know, the ilk that you've just mentioned there, you know, beyonce is a performer. People might not see a performance artist the same as a sporting athlete, but absolutely the principles hold right. She has to walk out there and bring her best. There's no, you know, there is no room for anything less than that, and so what I would suggest is that people who put themselves in that arena have to bring with it a hype, their highest performance, their best performance mindset, their peak performance mindset, and if that includes a persona that they adopt which helps them go into that space.
Dan Haesler:I work with a Wallaby who? He's Alan Alatoa. He's a, he's captain the Wallabies and he talks about, he has to really bring out this darker side to him, because that's what's required. Off the field, he's the most loving, softly spoken father, husband, you know, but on the field he'll rip your head off, you know, and so being able to bring that, and I think that speaks to something a little deeper. Actually, I think it speaks to this idea of when I go on the field, that is not my identity, so it's funny. We were just talking about this with the Penrith players this morning, like, and I'll share it with you. It's just an idea I've been riffing with and I don't know. I don't know if you, I sometimes have ideas which I think are that good. It can't possibly be my idea.
Dan Haesler:I must have just absorbed this, so I'll just put it out there. Then maybe in the comments people can say no, mate, that's not your idea. I've seen it before, which, if it's true, cool, because then I can quote someone appropriately. But what we're saying is, you know, like this idea of athletes and high performers, people who are good at what they do can fall into a trap where they become what they do.
Jordi Taylor:I am, I am what I do, right. That's what you associate yourself, as I am a rugby league athlete Exactly.
Dan Haesler:Right, and so if, if, if footy's going well, I'm going well, but if it's not, then then who am I? And we were talking about how. If I am what I do, then every session becomes almost like a, an assessment on who I am as a person. So what we want to try and separate is I am and what I do. Right, so we take the sentence I am what I do, split it I am. So who are you? And what we're saying is footy isn't your identity.
Dan Haesler:Footy is where you get to express parts of your identity, parts of identity that you choose. So you think of someone you know, jerome Luai. Right, he expresses himself on the footy field, part of his identity on the footy field, maybe an amplified version of a part of his identity, because that is his peak performance state. There's no point him being the incredible family man he is with all his kids when he's got blokes who are 20 kilos heavier than him charging at him at full pace. He needs to bring that. So I actually think this idea of a persona yeah, it really speaks to the idea of I am not what I do, I am over this and I'll take whatever I need from this and pour it into there so I can bring my best in the moment. But also, if that doesn't go as well as I'd hoped, it doesn't mean I completely crumble as a person, right.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you've worked with enough athletes to know that the vast I'm going to say this, actually the vast majority of athletes I worked with early in their career can't separate those two things I think, even to take that a step further, I would say a lot of coaches can't separate those two things they only identify themselves as as coaches, um and same deal again, like when business is going really well, for example, or they're going really well, they're flying high. I know when athletes retire.
Dan Haesler:You know that's a big that's a big thing. That's why I think you know the work that you know I frame mental skills on the foundation of that, like the first thing I'll do with an athlete is who are you without a ball in your hands? And the amount of kids and I'll say kids, you know, 21, 22-year-olds who look back at me as if I'm speaking French Like what do you mean?
Jordi Taylor:You know who are you and can I interrupt, and sorry if I do Like? Do many of them actually know who they are at 21, 22?
Dan Haesler:I don't think many 21, 22-year-olds know who they are necessarily. So the question or the challenge is it's a hard question to answer for anyone, right? I think it's compounded when you're good at something. Yeah, right, I think it's compounded when you're good at something, because these kids are not 21, 22, right, ever.
Dan Haesler:For the vast majority of these kids, most conversations they've had in their life have revolved around what they do, and when I say most conversations, I mean most conversations with family friends or their uncle that they've not seen for six months. He comes around, he doesn't ask hey, dan, how are you, mate, how's life? First question hey, dan, how's the footy? And if footy's good and I'm speaking from experience here when I was 19, 20, if footy was going well for me, I was first down the stairs out my room, can't wait to see all the family friends, let's talk about it. It's not going my way. I'd be hesitant to come down those stairs Cause I knew what was coming.
Dan Haesler:I knew I was going to have to have a conversation, and so it's quite interesting that, um, you know, I sort of reflect back on the work I do now and kind of go geez, you know it's, I probably could have used this myself. It's just that if we go back to the smart versus informed you know I'm talking like late nineties, you know, like we didn't have. You know, I had a childhood. I was out on my bike. You know I wasn't scrolling Instagram getting inspiration from all these world-class athletes. So, yeah, so I think it's, yeah, so I think that's a long-winded way of answering the question of is it the same person? I don't think it is, because I don't think they can be, and I actually don't think it would serve people well to put all of themselves into this one thing. I think it's just too risky on a number of levels.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, I think that's a great summary and I think the informed versus smart is probably a good distinction.
Jordi Taylor:I was smart To circle right back to that. It's funny. I caught up with a mate last week for coffee or whatever and we got chatting and I didn't actually know he was actually a trained psychologist and so he actually gave some insights that I didn't think he had, which is again like I guess all these people have layers and that you don't know. I've known him for about two and a half years. I did not know he was a trained psychologist and he was explaining. One of the players this year probably had the best season of their career.
Jordi Taylor:Basically, he knew him as a child all the way through and this is very similar to like what you were saying Dare around his identity and being involved. I think this probably leads beautifully into this sort of question around like your environment and who's around you. He would say like you come up to him and say, mate, that was a great game, well done, and it doesn't matter. He'd look over into the crowd and if his mum had a smile on his face, he'd be stoked and it was all good. But if his mum did not have a smile on his face, that was it. It was literally like his world was ending. You know how important is it to have like a steady and stable environment around you as well, not just yourself, because it's really easy to try to get better yourself, but it's also really hard when everyone around you may not be on that same wavelength.
Dan Haesler:So I've got so many thoughts on this. So one of the biggest myths or mistakes that people have made in the whole mindset, mental toughness, resilience, space is that they framed it as a you problem. You need to be more resilient, you need to turn up with the right mindset, right, and what they've completely underplayed is the role that the environment plays. They've completely underplayed how they were raised. They've completely underplayed place. They've completely underplayed how they were raised. They've completely underplayed the cultural norms that are present. And so what we try and do and when I say we, the people I work with, so I won't work with people if they're not going to buy into this idea so the idea is that we are all going to go on a journey of learning together. I'm going to be doing as much learning in our relationship, you know, with you, the athlete, as hopefully you are, and the reason for that is that I can't possibly know what you need to do to improve your mindset or resilience until I get to know you right, until I get to know your relationship with your parents, until I get to know you know, until I get to know your relationship with your parents, until I get to know you know what it was like for you in year nine when you took a risk and everyone laughed at you.
Dan Haesler:I was speaking at NRL rookie camp a couple of two years ago this was, and I asked the lads there I said when do you feel the most pressure? And the first two hands went up. So that in itself, right, there was a lot of pressure. No one wants to go first. And eventually we got some hands. First two hands. One was like oh, after I've made a mistake, okay, makes sense. Second one was if I have to take the game winning shot. The third one was when my dad watches. I feel the most pressure when my dad's watching and what was really interesting was that you know when you're in a room and everyone gets it.
Jordi Taylor:The air comes out of the room.
Dan Haesler:The air comes out and all the nods and everyone's sort of like giving each other knowing looks and so yeah. So this is a way to sort of dig into this idea how important is the other people around you? The question is, how are the important people around you? Right? So how are the important people in your life around you?
Dan Haesler:So if I'm, if my kid makes a mistake and I'm not just to be clear, I'm not winning any awards for this, but it's something I continually try and work on you know, if, if a kid makes a mistake on the footy field, right, and let's just say it's under eights, under nines the first thing that kid will often do is look to the sideline for some sort of support or something Same. If they score a try or a goal, they'll look to the sideline for approval. So when they make a mistake, they're looking to the sideline for support. If they see the eye roll the fire out, you know, then that moment undermines any any inspirational chat you might get. Just do your best, we love you, this, that and the other. I've worked with athletes who genuinely believe their parents love them more when they win. Now I can't believe that's true, but I can absolutely believe how they can think it's true.
Jordi Taylor:That's that whole. I might be thinking too global here, but perception is reality, right Like do they? Truly believe that.
Dan Haesler:Absolutely.
Jordi Taylor:The stories they tell themselves. Is that part of it as well? Have they ever and again? It might sound so simple, but have they ever actually asked their parents? Is that true?
Dan Haesler:Yeah, so a lot of them. Don't ask that, but because there's a lot of hierarchy and power dynamics and if you're talking to I don't know what age, people start feeling more comfortable. I mean, some are quite comfortable quite early, challenging their parents. But yeah, I think what we've got to understand about mindset and things is that often it's very subconscious. So when they say that, it's not like they've actually sat there and written it down and objectively analysed it. It's just a feeling and a belief that they have. It's not a rational thought that they've, you know. Oh well, this must now be true. It's just something that's there. It's a bias. Oh well, this must now be true. It's just something that's there. It's a bias, right? So it's interesting, right?
Dan Haesler:Because then, when we do the work around what we call our inner circle, we're saying, okay, well, who are the important people around you and what do you need from them? And you need to be able to put boundaries in place with those people, right? And so what we mean by that is and this is very huge generalized things. But there could be a period of time after a game where you don't want to talk about it, whether you've won, lost or not, and so what's important is that for those important people around you to know that? Yeah, because if you just come in and go, oh you know, offering all your worldly advice about how you could have played better, that's either going to lead to silence or lead to some form of resentment or lead to an argument, right, so? So how important is it that they know? Very important, it's important to know what they need from you. And if they can't subscribe to that, then again, this is, this is gets increasingly more doable. I think this gets increasingly more doable.
Dan Haesler:Doable, I think, as you get older, is being able to say okay, cool, I'll call you. So I know there's a bloke who's retired from the NRL now who literally put that boundary in place with his mum, like he would say don't call me after a game, wait for me to call you. And it was just a way of him being able to enter into a conversation when he was ready, because he knew that mum was always just going to be analyzing the game and talking about this, or why didn't you get enough game time, or whatever it might be. So, yeah, so long, long answer. All my answers are long but um, but it but, uh, you know it's. It is so nuanced and for the most part I think, parents just want what's best for their kids. It's just that they don't understand that sometimes their actions aren't what's best for their kids.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, and it's natural instinct, right? Well, I think it's natural instinct. Anyway, you make an error and you just happen to look over and you see your dad or mum or grandpa or whoever's there supporting you. They may not even know that they're doing it either. It's not like they consciously put their head down when you make a mistake or anything like that, Like it just happens and you know to take that as gospel. So I'll give you an insight actually.
Dan Haesler:So I had this insight only last year. So my son was playing and he made an error on the field and I can't remember what I did, but I said something or did something. And now, fortunately, we're not on the sidelines, we're watching Jackson, we're sort of back in a stand, so it's less easy for him to say. But my wife was next to it, next to me, and she turns and says what are you doing? You know you can't be like this and and you know why why are you acting? And I said, and what I realized was I wasn't disappointed at him, I was disappointed for him.
Dan Haesler:But to an outsider it would look exactly the same. You know what I mean. It would look like I was fuming at him. I wasn't, it was just, I was my. My behaviors were just oh mate, you know, like that's unlucky. You know that's unlucky, you know that's. But the way I was behaving could have to an outsider could have looked like Jesus. You know you can't react like that if a kid drops a ball. So it was quite. It was an interesting moment for me. So now I am trying to keep somewhat more stoic on the sideline.
Jordi Taylor:A lot more neutral.
Dan Haesler:A lot more neutral, which is I was really doing that a lot last year with the. You know just when I'm around the players or when I'm around the team environment. It's just trying to remain really quite neutral. So I don't with the. This is funny. So in last year's grand final when with about I don't know 90 seconds to go and we'd won, you know, and the boys if you look at the thing, the boys all run down to be on the sideline ready for the whistle. I'm not sure if it's there, but if it was panning back to the players area where I was sitting, I'm still there, sitting, just sitting, just waiting, not getting carried away. Get the nickname statue soon.
Jordi Taylor:You're just not doing anything.
Dan Haesler:But it was something I was really deliberate on. Just trying to maintain that I'm going to throw one at you, just to play devil's advocate In that environment.
Jordi Taylor:Four-time premierships, four years in a row like I'm not saying it doesn't come with the challenges, like to be able to back it up year after year, like that's just. That's a different level of resilience which we probably don't have enough time to speak about. But would you say it's easier even to do and be like quote unquote neutral when you're winning in a team environment versus when you're losing, week after week after week? This you just can't get a right call, players are getting injured in you know unfortunate circumstances, that feels like the refs are against you, like nothing's going your way. Do you find that would be easy to be neutral when you're winning or easy to be neutral when you're losing?
Dan Haesler:I think it's definitely definitely easier to to pull back to what you might call this sort of like, your equanimity, like that middle spot, when it's easier to pull back, I think, from a place of euphoria, happiness, than it is if you're completely in the doldrums, right, but that in itself is a mental skill. So understanding that you know, understanding we can't allow confidence to be outsourced externally. So we can't allow an athlete can't allow it's their confidence to be based on whether they're winning or losing, whether they're getting good calls or bad calls. They have to base their confidence on the work done, on whether they're winning or losing, whether they're getting good calls or bad calls. They have to base their confidence on the work done, the processes they're adhering to, and understanding that sport is based on luck, it's based on people making mistakes. If it wasn't, if it was based purely on who does the work and who's the best, no one would watch it because it would be boring, right? Because we just know. So it's predicated on us not quite reaching that point that we need to get to, or a bad ref's call or whatever, right? So understanding that confidence comes from the work done. So if you're the team that's losing, constantly, right, and you can sort of draw your own correlations here to who you might be thinking of. But understanding, well, okay, if we were to zoom out of that, what does it look like? What? What's the culture, what's the which way we trending? You know, things in on the improve. Things never improve as quickly as we want in life, right, but if we can have the confidence going, okay, we're moving in the right direction and we know that we're going to add things to that, elements to that different ways of doing things, different talent, whatever processes you name it then our guess is that it's going to improve. That's what it's got to be about.
Dan Haesler:See, when I'm talking about performance, coaching or mental skills or whatever, one of my opening sort of pitches to the people I work with is I'm interested in results, but I'm not focused on them. I'm focused on the manner of the performance. So when you were talking about there, about resilience when you've won X amount of, about, you know, um, resilience, if, when, when, when you've won X amount of comps or not letting complacency set in or whatever, that's what we're looking for. We're looking for the manner of the performance. So if we're winning but we're getting away with it, that's a problem, you know. Now, in in lesser performing environments, it's not a problem. We're winning right If we're losing, but the behaviors are right. Okay, of course we wanted to win, but we're going to double down on those behaviors In a lesser performing environment. I don't actually understand the behaviors that we're doing. It's just all about results. And if we've got, then the, the pressure from board members or we look to pay too much attention to the media or whatever it might be, then we actually don't know what it is we should be doing.
Dan Haesler:So sean, for example, you know and he spoke about this when he came on my podcast, when we first connected to work one-to-one, he was having a tough time of it. Cooper Cronk had just said on Fox Sports that he's not fired a shot and he should probably retire. And you know this is going back a fair few years when he was at the Sharks. And so my first, one of my first questions to him was well, tell me what good looks like? What does good look like for you? And he said, honestly, I don't know.
Dan Haesler:Sean Johnson he'd won the golden boot a few years before couldn't tell me what good looked like anymore, because he'd had so much noise from from everywhere fans, the media the Sharks were sort of an up and down team. You know it was. It was an interesting time, so it's yeah, so I often look at that, you know, when you look at that. You know when you look at, I was talking to Kevvie at the Panthers this morning. Kev Kingston, he's the wellbeing guy. I said have you ever have you because he's been there ages. Have you ever heard any of the coaching staff here ever blow up and give a spray at a player and he's like nah, like maybe, maybe in sort of like you know, 18, 19 or when. Maybe, coincidentally, they were struggling a bit, because in my time there and I've spent a lot of time around that environment- never, like they'll give direct feedback, they'll give instructions, but there's never any, you know what the f this and come
Dan Haesler:on and come on, you know that's shit or it's quite remarkable, right? And my question? I guess my question is, and it's one of does that level of equanimity and that calmness, does that breed success, or do you only have that because of success? And my guess is, my guess is it's probably a bit of a symbiotic, it's probably two sides of the same coin. But it's understanding what success looks like. And, as you and for me, just to be clear, success looks like getting the behaviors right. If you get the behaviors right, the outcomes will largely take care of themselves. Sometimes they won't, because that's sport, but it's understanding what the behaviors look like. What does the culture feel like? And once you get clear on that because if you're not clear on that, you're leaving everything to chance and that's where you'll go on this sort of rollercoaster thing, yeah, I've got two thoughts to that.
Jordi Taylor:One, I think it's a if you were to take two coaches box, even grand final day yeah, you've got Ivan Cleary. Yeah, always looks just cool, calm and collected Maybe not on the inside, but on the outside. You know, that coaching box to me seems quite relaxed yeah, intense, but relaxed. Versus Bellamy's box yeah, craig Bellamy, you've probably got spit flying on the window. Yeah, like it always looked like you're on edge in that box. For me, if I was a part of that staff, I'd definitely prefer to be in the cool, calm environment, but I know that a lot of people thrive in that environment too, where things are on edge all the time.
Jordi Taylor:Both have very successful coaching careers, both have very successful programs, both have a lot of if you're looking from a culture standpoint phenomenal culture. Players either leave those programs to other clubs because of how good they are, and when they enter those other clubs they bring those standards with them. So then my question to you, off the back of that, is where does culture start? Does it start at the top, with the board, the coaching staff, and comes down, or does it start with the players and goes up?
Dan Haesler:Yeah, I think it depends, so I can speak so from the Panthers point of view. Ivan was very clear on his second time in charge there of addressing the culture and setting what he felt was to be the direction. But the culture isn't just one person or it's not just the direction. It requires people to buy in and I think what he did, which was very deliberate, very smart, was he understood the importance of community out at Penrith and so the culture, and again he's spoken about this quite openly.
Dan Haesler:But the culture and the vision is to be a source of community pride for the Penrith area and when you've got, as we know, the fabled Penrith system and all the juniors that come through there, it's a no-brainer. So you're setting the vision for the people and the culture, for the people who are going to form that culture. I think sometimes people get it wrong where they think it's, because I guess the answer to your question is it probably has to be both If you've got someone who's trying to set the culture and it's just not there, and again, think of any coach which has lost the dressing room, for example right, there's a version of that or it's where the players want to set the culture but it's just not Tangible, achievable, not too far out of reach, yeah or just not Realistic.
Jordi Taylor:Useful might be a better way of putting it.
Dan Haesler:You know what I mean. It's just not what's required in a high-performing environment. High-performing environments like sporting teams. They are so abnormal. Most people have no idea. Most people go.
Dan Haesler:It must be great to work in sport. It must be, and it is. Of course, it's amazing, but it's really unusual. It's really unusual to walk into a room of people whose sole interest is how do we get better today? You go to any workplace anywhere else. That is not the norm. The norm is how do we get through today? The norm is how do I keep my head down? How do I not take anything more on today? Right, and again, that massive generalization.
Dan Haesler:But you know when and when you get into that abnormal scenario. If, if, if you, if your coach and your board abnormal scenario. If your coach and your board, your playing group, aren't aligned, it can't work. So if you're comparing your Bellamy to that system, that works for that place. Because if I go to Melbourne as a player, I know exactly what I'm walking into because I've been watching him for 20 years on TV, right? So, since you know what I'm saying like so if I'm going to Melbourne, I know what I'm going to get.
Dan Haesler:I've met, I've spent a day in Melbourne, you know, sort of going around the facility, so I don't know the culture, but I kind of know the culture. It's that strong People who don't know the culture. You know what's expected, whereas other again I won't name any names, but I'm pretty sure if you went through the just the, just take the nrl table is it just went through I bet you'd have a hard time understanding what was expected in other environments, because it's just not that strong people come and go, coaches come and go. There's not enough time to actually even set the culture. You know what I mean. Because people come and go, so they's not enough time to actually even set the culture. You know what I mean. Definitely Because people come and go so they bring in new people, and new people mean new culture, right? So it's.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, the revolving wheel continues in some of those environments Exactly. Do you think as well, like we talk about the Bellamy's and the Cleary's, as in Ivan Cleary, they also withhold the standard themselves. They're not one to say this is the standard and then they go dip off and go to their own thing. I know for a fact that they, more often than not, are the first ones in the facility, more often than not the last ones to leave. They're there training, so when the boys turn up they see the coach doing work.
Jordi Taylor:Even if we take that and take a step back to just business, how important is it that, once that culture is set by quote, unquote, the top or the people that probably have more say than others, that it's actually withheld from their perspective and their standards, so that people can see that? Because the moment you see that it's like well, that's how it is, that's how it is. It's pretty hard to argue with. When you're seeing it, you're tangibly seeing it. It's pretty hard to argue. Anyone can say words, but seeing it, it's pretty hard to argue.
Dan Haesler:Anyone can say words, yeah, but seeing it in real time is two different things yeah, and not seeing it is the worst thing, right, you know it's it because it just breeds. You know people think they're hypocrites. It breeds, you know, like there's no trust. It's like where's the integrity? You're asking me to do that? You know how many times do people say you know, um? I'll often say you know, what do you think of the best leader you've ever had for argument's sake, right? Or think of the best coach you've ever had, or, and say what did you like about it? And they'll say things like, um, oh, they believed in me, they saw my potential, but a few late lines down, when you start, it's like they'd never ask you to do something they wouldn't do themselves. You know something along those lines, right and right. And it's amazing, this idea of role modeling. That's what we're talking about. Role modeling. It's such. I think role modeling is one of the. I think I reckon behavioral psychologists are pretty clear on this.
Dan Haesler:You know, only I think this you know, role modeling is the strong, or one of the most strongest forms of education, of coaching, of leadership. Let me show you what I mean here. This is what I mean when I say be professional. This is what I mean when I say be prepared, whatever right, this is what I mean because if I'm preaching, you know, little things aren't little, you know high performance habits and I rock up five minutes late, you know. Or I rock up and I'm fluffing around with my notes on the presentation slides out of whack. It's only a little thing, but I've just spent the past half a season telling you little things aren't little, you know. Don't miss that line by a meter, you know. So, whatever it looks like, if, if, whatever your philosophies are yeah, of course it looks. If I'm presenting, you know, if I'm, if my little things are different to you're an athlete, but the principle holds. So whether it's the head coach, snc, physio, whatever if I'm, if I'm extolling the virtue of something, I have to live that and.
Jordi Taylor:But you can easily see, like the, the a players will always be a players. It's like the b and c players players is just a general term. You're not actually athletes. They look at a place when they're in those environments because that's just and they meet the standard and they become A players very quickly. Or they ultimately just fall off to the side and get sort of weeded out pretty quickly. You find that tends to be the case as well.
Dan Haesler:Yeah, definitely, Because it's those A players, if we're calling them that, that really are the. They set the tone or they actually know. So let's say your head coach sets the tone. They're gonna they're gonna dial up the volume on that time makes it.
Jordi Taylor:I don't want to hammer that metaphor. Yeah, you know so.
Dan Haesler:So they're the ones who, they're the ones who are, you know, like um ivan, you know just talked about, is, you know over and over again, as he just is the standard, you know, like he is just the consummate. You know, in fitness, in preparation, and you name it and I've heard other coaches talk about it, you know, like the influence of those players, that if they're doing the little things, that's worth, that's 10 times more important or more powerful than the coach saying, hey, do the little things. And, as you said, so, then the players who are ready for that environment, they just gravitate to those people and they start. You know, you become the sum of the people around you, or five people around you. You know you start taking on those things and whereas others might go, geez, this isn't for me. As you say, they either get weeded out or they choose to leave. Maybe this isn't the right spot.
Jordi Taylor:And we talk about that. First thing that comes to my mind is consistency. They consistently do those things over and over again. It's not like it's for two weeks or two months and it dips. It's always this ever-growing process of being consistent, like going back again to performers. There was, I think, one of Drake's security guards the other day. They said, like what's the number one thing you learned from Drake over the last eight years? And he's like consistency. He goes every night. He turned up, no matter whether he was tired, sick, had done 50 shows before. He goes.
Jordi Taylor:Almost every single show you could freeze, frame it and press play and it was the exact same show. It's just the ultimate consistency across the board. And you think about that with the players that they don't have those peaks and troughs in their games or game, if you want to look at it like a macro or zoom out a little bit more In a year. They don't have these peaks and troughs. They stay relatively consistent. Consistency isn't sexy, it's it's probably the least sexy thing in the world. How do you drill home that sort of message there around, like just doing those little things over and over and over again, is it? What's your philosophy around that?
Dan Haesler:Yeah, so that's comes philosophy around that? Yeah, so that comes back to that idea of the little. Things aren't little, and I actually riff on this a little bit when I'm giving presentations to people. So in the 2023 grand final, when Nathan did his thing and just had 20 minutes from heaven, there was some commentary from Andrew Johns where he said something like Nathan Cleary stands up in the big moments and that sounds beautiful, it's great rhetoric, it's brilliant, except it's just not true. I mean, it's true he stands up in big moments, but it's great rhetoric, you know, it's brilliant, except it's just not true, right? I mean, it's true he stands up in big moments, but it's not the full story. He stands up every day. He stands up when no one's looking. He stands up in the littlest of little moments. You know he leads by example in team meetings, he?
Dan Haesler:So we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the level of our habits. So if we want to be a world-class performer, if we want to win a comp, then you have to be winning it every day. You don't just win it on grand final day, right? And that's how I try and frame it. Because he said consistency is boring. High performance actually is quite boring. You don't go out, you eat the same food. You know what I mean. So we have to try and we have to jazz it up a little bit. So it's like you want to win the grand final.
Dan Haesler:Sweet, let's start winning now, shall we? And I'm not talking about going out there and dominating the day and all this alpha male nonsense. What I'm talking about is just taking ownership of your career, setting yourself goals that you can achieve on the daily, which are 100% in your control, and do it. And then do it again tomorrow, and do it again tomorrow. And when the motivation starts to drop, do it again. And if you need people around you, that's sweet, because there's a whole organisation here who are invested in helping you be your best. So lean on them, go and talk to them, let's sort it out. And your mate next year? Next year, he's doing the same thing. So when he's down a little bit, lift him up. We, we hold each other accountable. It's a collective effort. And this is the same even if you're an individual athlete. Right, you know you have your team around you. But the point is it's like did I show up today?
Dan Haesler:yeah, cool no, okay, turns out, you're human, sweet. Let's double down tomorrow, shall we? And let's make some gains that we didn't quite make today. And that that doesn't have to be running harder, necessarily, it doesn't have to be lifting more weights, it could be sleep, you know. You know better than I do in that space, like you know, the recovery element of it. So the consistency piece. You know consistency beats intensity every day, right? So, and this applies for everything you know, so let me share, I'll share with you this because I thought this was really cool.
Dan Haesler:So, in a couple of weeks leading into the final series, jess Fox and Naomi Fox came into the Panthers and we had a chat and they presented to the boys about what it takes to bring your best in that gold medal event where you know it's every four years, it's now or never, blah, blah. And um, jess had this incredible phrase which I've never heard before, which is surprising because I think I've heard a lot of things which I you know, but she goes when she was in ready to go. She has this line which says I deserve to do my best, right, which I really cool. I think is really cool because a lot of the times people will say I'll just do my best, or I deserve this, I deserve to win, or I deserve to be here, right, but to be able to sit there at the stop before she drops into this ridiculous event, you know, she can say to herself I deserve to do my best. And so that for me is like ultimate confidence. Why? Because confidence comes from the work done. You can only say that and believe it if you go in. Yeah, I've done the work. So what I've started doing is saying, okay, whatever your pinnacle event is.
Dan Haesler:So for a kid it could be HSC or VCE, for a, for a, a an adult, it could be a job interview, it could be a big pitch. For an athlete it could be a big event or a trial or whatever. What's it going to take for you to be, just before you step into that arena, say I deserve to do my best. What's it going to take, starting now? What do we need to do every day in order for you to be able to say that when we walk in? And that's when you can start charting these behaviors? Right? Because for me it's.
Dan Haesler:You know that mantra, you know and a lot of people think you know mindset, mental skills, mantras. Mantras are only useful if they're built on the work. If you try and bullshit yourself, go ha-ha, I've got this and you know you haven't because you haven't done the work. You took a shortcut, you missed the reps, you didn't do your rehab. Self-talk is self-defeating because you can't bullshit you. So you might be able to bullshit other people, but you know, in that moment I've not done it and that's when that fight flight freeze will kick in. So, yeah, I think it's consistency. Everyone knows that it's important, but, yeah, being able to actually hold yourself accountable to it. It's consistency. Everyone knows its importance, but being able to actually hold yourself accountable to it. This is how I'm going to show up today. Consistency in mindset as much as anything, not just doing the work and then being able to reflect on it on the day, the day after, at the end of the day, rather, and being able to propel yourself into the next day, super powerful.
Jordi Taylor:I think that's where a lot of people get mental skills confused is it's not just about sitting there and wishing and hoping no Right, do you think? That's probably where a lot of people like they just look at that Like that's obviously great. That's not even scratching the surface. It's about evaluating everything that's going on, mapping it out, trying out whatever you want to do. But, like, confidence comes from, competence is what I've heard before.
Jordi Taylor:A lot of times, you're essentially saying the same thing. It's not like we wish or we hope that when we get into this position, we're ready for it. It's like, well, no, I'm just more aware of what's going on around me If I've done the work, whatever that looks like. When it of self-talk, or I may need a strategy to sort of get me in the zone where that's to do with pressure, anxiety, whatever it may be. It's about like just taking a step back and coming into that moment, like mantras is obviously a great way of doing that. I know when, like, athletes make mistakes, it's like that flush it mentality is pretty common. I heard you say on a podcast where, like, dan Carter would smack his leg yeah, like that's like his way of going. Okay, I'm mucked up, moving on to the next play, kind of thing, like talking about it. So maybe dealing, like addressing the global thing around, like what do you believe mental skills is? Because I think that's probably important as well. We haven't really touched on that, ironically.
Dan Haesler:This is while we're only just starting to interview them.
Jordi Taylor:And then like, maybe just like if there is a young athlete listening to this, or even probably coaches is probably the more audience like, if they've just got young athletes that they're dealing with and they may be going through something, what are some strategies they can take into?
Dan Haesler:it okay, global stuff, yeah, yeah, okay, cool. Let's just go back, then, to what you think about mental skills. So have you ever, I'll ask you, have you ever found yourself looking back on something like a situation that you didn't handle particularly well and you go far?
Jordi Taylor:out. Why did I do that I?
Dan Haesler:should have done this, that all those 100, 100 right. So that doesn't tell me that. So that tells me it's not that you don't know what to do, right, it's that you just weren't able to do it when the pressure was on right. And so the idea of pressure is that, you know some people will see it as a negative. I'm of the opinion that we can only find out what we're truly capable of with it, right. So we need to create a better relationship with pressure, and that's what mental skills allow us to do.
Dan Haesler:Mental skills is the ability, or it's the skill set required to be able to pay attention. Pay attention in the moment, stay present, because when you are present, when you are in the moment, actually pressure tends to evaporate. Pressure only really manifests when you are worried about what might happen like the clock's running out, we're not going to score, we're not going to or when you're thinking about what has happened. I've made all these mistakes, you know, we've conceded, but when we're actually in the moment, you know and this is where we bore people to tears, with focus on the process. But if you genuinely can do that, pressure tends to evaporate. It doesn't mean that anything's any less important. It just means that I'm not paralyzing myself with this fear of what I have done or this fear of what might happen.
Dan Haesler:And mental skills is, is, is the skillset. So, whether that's um, things like, uh, training, confidence training, calm, um, emotional regulation, uh, visualization, you know imagery, um, I know you had a guy recently talking all about breath work. You know being able to understand the link between physiology and psychology and you know there's so many layers to this. And so when you ask me you know an athlete or a coach that's struggling with something, I don't think there's a one size fits all. Rather, I think there's some guidelines or parameters which can help people kind of navigate this. So also depending on where they are. So if I've got an athlete who's struggling with something and competition is a fair way off, then I'm going to start with who are you without a ball?
Jordi Taylor:in your hands.
Dan Haesler:Let's start there. That, for me, is foundational right, and so we'll start there, and then we'll start building. Okay, tell me what you know. What are your goals? Are they extrinsic, intrinsic, you know, they process outcome-based? Then we start going okay, talk to me about what good looks like, like. Then we'll talk about managing mistakes and blah, blah, blah. Right, it's already interrupted.
Jordi Taylor:How long would that take, you know, for on average for an athlete? Is that something that happens in one session, or is that multiple sessions?
Dan Haesler:it's multiple, it's multiple, um. That said, you know, I have created a play for this platform which is self-guarded. Right, so you can. So you can rattle through it quite quick. But, like any skill, right so we frame it right. It's a skill. You can train this. In fact, you should train this, you know.
Dan Haesler:So if I'm working as I say, this is all sort of dependent on how far away competition is. If, on the other hand, I've got an athlete who is playing tomorrow, I'm not asking them who are you without a footy in your hands? Because in 24 hours they're going to have a footy in their hands and I'm, you know, I need to help them in that moment, right? So in that moment, it's more about I'll get them to tell me about the work they've done up until this point. I actually get, you know, and a lot of athletes, oh, oh, they overprivileged the week. You know like they go oh, I've not had a good week. Good week, mate, you've been playing for 20 years, you've got. You know what I mean. You've been playing for 20 years Like you don't. I appreciate you've not had a great week, but come on, you know, and that actually has the same reaction they have a bit of a laugh about it, which is good, right, because?
Jordi Taylor:they need to zoom out a little bit more great, yeah, because they've just been hammering themselves.
Dan Haesler:You know they, they've been the, the inner critics just been killing them. So we just start going back and and that's when I'll start getting them to talk about just describe how it feels when you're at your best right. Tell me, um, you know, the, the sensations. What you're thinking about all that, that kind of stuff, and the script I'm trying to flip is that sometimes they'll think they can only feel those things if they're playing good. What I will always advocate, particularly if you've got a lot of experience, is that no, no, you can play good by feeling these things.
Dan Haesler:So let's really go back, go and watch some highlights, watch something that evokes those feelings, and then you know usually and again, this is a little bit, um, over-generalized, but then I'll usually say right, if I'm watching you tomorrow, what three things am I going to see? And I'm not talking about how many tries you're going to score or assists. What am I going to see from you? Are you to see I'm, I'm talking. You're going to see that my body language is good. You're going to see that I've got intent in my defense. Sweet, all those, those three things, all in your control. I gotta do it right, and so that's if I was, you know, 24 hours before game day, and then if it's anywhere in between, it's who knows? Because you know what I mean. Like it's a bit of a horses for courses type thing, of course.
Jordi Taylor:Have you ever had any experiences with whether it be organisations or probably organisations or teams that when you're working with an athlete they're kind of like, no, no, we don't want you coming as an outsider perspective, or have you always been welcomed into one? I know the Panthers are a bit different because you're employed by them, but, say, an individual athlete reaches out to you and let's say the club catches on, or whatever happens.
Jordi Taylor:Maybe media picks up on it and then all of a sudden, you know, I know, for example, it's been used in the States before like someone's secret weapon.
Dan Haesler:And then all of a sudden everyone wants to use them, but then all the clubs say no, you, you know we can't use that person because they know what this particular player thinks and like that's kind of like sharing that confident confidential information across multiple areas. Have you ever had that? So I haven't yet. Um, not, I've had. Um, I've had it. Where people just don't understand what I'm doing. Yeah, and people are you look, you're thinking you really should understand this, like you're in your position and you don't understand what we're doing here. You know They've got the. Why can't they just turn it? Leave that at the door? We're paying them good money to perform. Why would they need If I'd had all of them every time?
Jordi Taylor:I heard that.
Dan Haesler:Why would they need this? And, honestly, that's that's as I mentioned sort of a bit earlier. It's like, well, I can't, I can't work in this environment. If you're not understanding of this and I'm not, I'm not going to try and convince you either because, well, one, I don't have the time, but I don't have the inclination to try and convince people either. I work with people who are interested in it, um, and, as I said, because, you know, because of the trend, it's, I'm not short on people who want to do the work. You know what I mean. Like, maybe, if it was 20 years ago and I'm trying to build a business based on this new thing, I'd be working with a lot of people and trying to convince them, but, um, but interest.
Dan Haesler:So, if we go to your point about, um, conflicts of interest that's what we're calling it Really, if you've, if you've got working with all these different people, it is something that, um, you know, we managed with the panthers, for example, um, you know. So, uh, in 2023 season, we ended up playing the warriors in the in the first finals game, you know, and so, as it happened, sean didn't actually play in that game he had an injury, but, um, it was something that we managed, you know, with I spoke to Ivan, spoke to the players, you know. So I just took myself out of meetings and but the point is I didn't have to. But what you said before, perception is reality, right? So I just wanted to get rid of any um inkling that yeah, any inkling at all of any um inkling, yeah, any inkling at all.
Dan Haesler:Um, but anyone who works with me knows we don't talk about other people, right, it's about you. Mental skills is about you, you know, and it's about you being your best. It's not about how you're going to get one over on such and such and we go. Well, I know, if you say this then he's gonna like that isn't who I am, and I get you know. Ivan and I have got a very good relationship. I always run it by. So right now, you know, I've got assistant coaches at nrl clubs that'll do work with me.
Dan Haesler:Um, and you know everyone I work with. I just run it past, I've been just out of respect, but he's, he's always, you know. He's like, yeah, of course, no worries, because he knows how I work with them. You know I'm not in there going, oh, this bloke, this bloke, this bloke, you know. So, um, yeah, it's, it's. You know my whole, I guess my whole business and brand is built on that trust and confidentiality which I remember cooper cronk getting um criticized for it because I think he was doing some stuff melbourne and roosters at the same time and and some of the media were going how can you do that. Well, you can, I can go and work with you and talk about you and how you can perform, and then I can go and work here and talk about you. You know you don't have to.
Dan Haesler:Just because you can't you know what I mean like, just because you can't do it, just because you talk about people behind their backs or try and get one up, it doesn't mean everyone does. You know? Um, so I don't know. It's, uh, it's a funny one, um, but yeah, it's. I think you know I do, I do limit I'm, I, I use a lot of judgment. You know I um. A few of the warriors boys reached out and I was like, nah, I can't, I can't, I can't work with heaps of people in in. Uh, you know they were one of the rivals in 2023. So, um, but yeah, it's, it's one of them. Things which, um, it's, it's. I'm very grateful to have people reach out and being in different sports as well sort of is good. You know you can take a lot of learning from different environments, different sports, different ways of doing things.
Jordi Taylor:So yeah, I was going to ask this earlier, but I want to wrap up on this sort of idea here because people are probably listening and I'm sure there's some amazing takeaways in there. We've mentioned Sean Johnson, Nathan Cleary, all these amazing teams and organizations. Obviously, you didn't start in that position. So how do you build up to that? Because I think a lot of the success that people leave the clues are actually in how they got there, trusting the process. Again, it's not like you just woke up and all of a sudden you're at the Panthers and you're working with these guys. That's certainly not how it happened. You mentioned like Sean there and then a few other wanted to reach out. Obviously, that's from doing a good job, but how did you get your first break? I always find it really interesting to hear people's quote unquote, like first big break.
Dan Haesler:Yeah, yeah, so I used to be a teacher and when I was teaching in, so I worked in Manchester in some really tough schools. Then I moved to Sydney and worked in a really nice school so both ends of the continuum, the continuum and I was exploring ideas around mindset, positive psychology, motivation in a school setting. And based on that work, I was given a scholarship off the government and the scholarship allowed me. This is 2010,. The scholarship allowed me to travel and meet the world's leading experts in mindset, motivation, positive psychology. I had to come back and share those findings, so I started writing a blog, I started presenting at conferences and I was doing that for a couple of years and then I forget the exact time, but at one particular point in time I was talking about fixed and growth mindsets and it was a big education conference and I put up pictures of two Australian tennis players who perhaps sort of self-sabotaged a little bit with the way that they went about their craft. And I wasn't making commentary on those two specifically, but I was just saying why is it that high performers sometimes self-sabotage? And there's a myriad of reasons, but one of them was going back to this idea we're talking about. I am what I do, and so what happens if I'm not going? Well, it's better to protect myself by acting in a certain way. Anyway.
Dan Haesler:About three days later I get a phone call from Tennis Australia and I'm thinking, shit, I'm in trouble here. I shouldn't I, shouldn't? You know? I went out on one there, shouldn't I? And they said no, no, we're actually quite interested in you coming in and having a chat, because one of it was an education conference.
Dan Haesler:But someone high up at Tennis Australia is married to a teacher who happened to be at the conference, and that was when I first learned about word of mouth, geordie. So word of mouth got you know what it's like in sport. We ended up doing a two-year engagement with Tennis Australia, working with all their coaching staff, working with parents, all the stuff we've spoken about today. And then the AIS heard what I was doing, and then the NRL. So the NRL actually paid for me to essentially present to any club that was interested, and at the time there was only 16 teams in the comp. I think I spoke to 11 of the 16, panthers were one of them struck a good relationship with Kevi Kingston there. In the meantime, the Sharks engaged me to spend some time with them.
Dan Haesler:Spent some time with the Tigers as well, so interesting to see both sides, or both ends of the table so to speak and then, when the thing with Tigers went the way it did, when Madge got asked to leave, yeah, I basically spoke with Ivan and he was like come along, Do you want to head out west? I was like let's go.
Dan Haesler:So yeah, and so it was. And, as I say yeah, and then you know little things on Insta or whatever, and then another athlete reaches out and this and that, so yeah, so I work now, working now with the Swifts and Netball, I work with members of the Wallabies, members of Socceroos, but I also and I'm really I think it's because of my education route I also do a lot of work with emerging athletes as well. So kids in Pathways, pathways programs can. That's why I put play fearless together to kind of really get it into the hands of anyone who's interested in it. So, um, yeah, it's, it's cool, mate, like I. It doesn't matter what sport you play, I'm interested, if, if you're, if you're interested, I'm interested, you know and do you find like um, I love working with youth athletes?
Jordi Taylor:I always have, but I feel now, as I'm getting a bit older, older, Older.
Dan Haesler:How old are you? Just turned 30. Oh, you are old. I know, that's it. You've crossed the threshold.
Jordi Taylor:I still feel like now they're facing different challenges to when I was a youth athlete.
Dan Haesler:For sure.
Jordi Taylor:Right and so on and so forth. So I feel like when you're at that bottom end of the emerging athlete, You're also getting information that you wouldn't get otherwise, which is why, again, I love working with them so much, because they're things they're saying that they're doing. I'm like I wouldn't dream of doing that when I was playing.
Dan Haesler:I'm just looking at the. So my son's playing Harold Matthews Rugby League and there's Instagram pages based on who's playing this weekend and players to watch. Mate, it's under 17s, ease up. What do you mean? Players to watch? I'll give you a tip there's no players to watch. Just let them play. You know what I mean? Just leave them be, but they, but they get, can get sucked into that, you know. And it's, yeah, it's, and that's just stuff with younger kids that, like you say, like mate, I'm 47, you know, so I I sometimes feel pretty removed, actually, from some of the things that they're talking about, but yeah, it's. I think the fact, if we go back to that idea of them being informed, being interested and understanding that sport you know, whether you make it or not, you sports just an incredible vehicle for self-development. You know, like all the life skills that you um, that can help you be successful wherever you end up in life, you can learn and craft in sports. So, yeah, emerging athletes, I think a really cool space to work with.
Jordi Taylor:Yeah, yeah, couldn't agree more. Um, you mentioned a few times, like the resources you have available. Uh, I know you have your own podcast. You've got two which I also found out, which I didn't know about, people to follow you learn more, and coaches in particular. Where would you direct coaches towards if they need a resource in particular? So playfearlesscom.
Dan Haesler:That actually has my mental skills platform which individuals can engage with. But what we're lots of clubs and schools with, you know, high profile sports programs are licensing it and basically put them through and what that does is they go, they get to work through self-paced, but then I actually jump on calls with them as well and dig into things to really contextualize it. So playfellascom, isa, good spot, and then just on insta like dan hasler um, you'll get me one way or another through there either that or you reach out to des hasler and absolutely, yeah, he gets a lot of emails from me, just passing it on mate.
Jordi Taylor:No, thank you very much for your time. It was knowledge everywhere, left, right and center. Um obviously crazy time of year as well. So I appreciate you taking the time to chat and we're looking forward to seeing how, how everyone responds to this. I'm sure it'd be great and, honestly, I can sit here and just keep talking for part two and three.
Dan Haesler:So we should do that. We can definitely do part two and three yeah.
Jordi Taylor:Sweet Awesome.
