Episode 6: The Right Environment: How Technology Shapes Early Care and Inclusion

In this episode of the Digital Mythology Podcast, Declan Goodman speaks with Cheng Yeo, Vice President of the Cleft Palate & Lip Society of Victoria and Manager of Architecture & Strategy at Crown Resorts, about digital health, early intervention, and healthcare inclusion.

They explore how technology, telehealth, and online speech therapy can improve access for families affected by cleft lip and palate — especially those in regional and remote areas. Cheng shares her personal journey, the critical gap in care between surgery and school age, and how empowering parents with the right knowledge enables earlier and more effective intervention.

This episode offers a practical, human perspective on digital inclusion in healthcare, showing how technology doesn’t replace care — it helps families access it sooner.

The Digital Mythology Podcast is here to help you bridge the gap between complex tech and human understanding, transforming your digital efforts into a narrative that truly resonates. As you embark on your digital transformation journey, remember that success isn't just about the tools or technology—it's about how well you can tell your story. By leveraging the timeless power of mythology, storytelling, and emotional connection, you can engage stakeholders, win buy-in, and inspire action.  

Join host Declan Goodman as he guides you through this journey, one story at a time.

Transcript

0:02

Hello and welcome to the Digital Mythology podcast. I'm your host, Declan Goodman. Today I have a really exciting guest on It's Cheng Yeo from Melbourne, Australia. Cheng is going to talk to us about her professional journey and personal journey and experience with technology in particular for cleft affected peoples. Cheng, welcome to the podcast. It's a delight to have you. Thank you. It's good to be here. So Cheng just introduced you more formally your vice president of the Cleft Palate and Lip Society of Pretoria in Australia and you're also manager of enterprise architecture and strategy at Crown Resorts Australia. So you're pretty busy, would that be fair to say? Yes, that would be true. So thanks for joining us. so today we're going to be talking about three key, I mean digital mythology. What I do is I like to use mythology and ancient storytelling to help people better understand the human side of tech. And today we're going to be talking about three quite important aspects of those that are cleft affected. We're going to be using three myths. as always I like to use mythology from ancient storytelling. We're going to be talking about Menzies mother. We're going to be talking about thesis and the labyrinth and of course you the great. So maybe before we start Chieng, do you want to just share a little bit about your background and please, just to kick off with the guests and what your relationship with technology is in general and with cleft affected people. Okay, so let me start with tech perhaps. so I grew up in a quite a traditional Chinese family. I grew up in Malaysia and then you know as a teenager I moved to Australia and you know most, most, most Chinese families like you to take a very traditional career path, do accounting or medicine or law. And I didn't want to do any of that. instead I picked an IT business degree. my, my parents actually ran a business so it was related, but kind of not related. and that's how I ended up in technology. that degree gave me a wonderful opportunity, a head start in my career. I got a scholarship. and that meant that I had an opportunity to do industry based learning, before I even graduated. so then from then on it was, I knew I was going to finish university with a job offer in my hand. and I did. And that's how I ended up, the last, I don't know, 30 years in tech. Great. And you've been mainly based in Melbourne, is that right? For most of your, I have been mainly based in Melbourne. I worked a brief stint in, in Sydney and a little Briefstein in in Canberra, but mostly in Melbourne. Fantastic. And I do follow you on LinkedIn. You're very good at storytelling, I have to say. And that's why I reached out to you to join this podcast because it's all about storytelling for tech. but you told me a really interesting story as well about your personal situation with a cleft affected, son, was it? Is that right? So maybe, yeah, I'd like to maybe if you don't mind sharing with the audience a little bit more about that as well because it's quite interesting. So, my son Josh, who is now 14, was born with a cleft lip and palate. I don't really know if there's a family connection. you know, some of the reasons for a cleft is sometimes genetic, but it's very, you know, no one in living memory, has a cleft. So I don't really know why he has a cleft, but he does. So when I was first diagnosed, during the, you know, I had my, I went to my 20 week scan, she expecting everything to be normal. and then was, was told by the sonographer and my ob, that there is a cleft lip and palate, involved. and so it was quite a, anxious time, I think the remainder of the pregnancy. and I was very fortunate to meet someone from cleft pals, Victoria. The day I received my diagnosis and it was just by complete fluke. She was on the committee for Cleft Palace Victoria and she was, she had her son with her who had a cleft. and you know, when I met them in the, in Myobi's, you know, reception rooms, he was like, I think he was about one and a half years old and he was just eating a peanut butter sandwich. And that's when I knew it was going to be okay. You know, before that I was going, oh my goodness, what is going to happen? And when I saw him eating a sandwich, I was like, oh, he's eating just fine. That must have been great to see that. The beginning of my relationship with Clef Palace Victoria. I joined as a committee member, as soon as Josh was born. And I had done various roles on the committee. you know, I kind of managed their social media. I did grants for them because they had a connection to the work that I did. at the end of the day. a grant strategy is not too dissimilar to a tech strategy to anything else really. It's a, fundraising strategy to try and so that we can afford to do the things that we want to do to serve our community. And yes, so I became their grant officer and then at some point I became their president, because nobody else wanted to be a president. and I'm now in a vice president, capacity. mainly because I just wanted to focus on the strategy work and I left the operational parts of running a charity with, with other committee members. Fantastic. very interesting. I guess that would have got you into this space then as well. I mean there's nothing like family members, you know. A bit of a calling isn't it to, to figure out, you know, what can you do with your skill set. You know, because working in tech and strategy and leadership we do have a lot of useful skills, you know, when it comes to lobbying and grant applications and understanding systems and bureaucracy and all that. So. And sometimes you know that's. It's really nice to have something like that outside of your professional day to day work where you can apply similar type rule, skills I guess to get good outcomes. Look, we were going to talk about three things, right? So the three sections is really around you know, early intervention. So we'll just. For me what I like to do is you know, to explain how technology helps and to tell that story I like to use myths. I'm going to mention the tale of Menzies mother, which is a lovely tale about a woman who when she had a son she was concerned that she knew A real fact is that where your children hang out, where your environment is, shapes them. And so the tale is she moved from initially, he was very young and she was surrounded by a marketplace. And so she was concerned the son would become orientated to be a mercenary, to be a trader, etc. So then she moved, but that was next to a graveyard. And so she was a bit concerned that the son would be too involved with mourning and all of that kind of stuff. But then she moved intentionally to beside a college, a school where she knew that the son would get involved in scholars etc. And eventually the tale is that he went on to become a scholar himself. It's a lovely story to remind us that you know, the environment you're in can help is very important when it comes to shaping your, the outcome especially for your children. And that comes to tech. So the reason I use that metaphor, that tale is because, you know, you may not be able to access the right health care you need. And I think we'll, I think you spoke about that before, Chang. I might get you to elaborate a bit on that. But when you're young, when your babies are young and they're born and they're cleft affected and there's pretty, there's not a great amount of resources accessible to you. So the idea is instead of, you know, up and moving, you can use tech to help do that. Yeah. So, you know, the typical cleft journey is there's usually a few surgeries involved. if the, you know, if the child has a cleft lip which is affecting the front part of their face only, and it's usually visible. there's usually a surgery before they turn six months old. And then, the second surgery, if, there is a cleft palate as well, which is the roof of the mouth or the area of the face behind the roof of the mouth, there's usually another operation around 12 months old, you know, roughly before speech, you know, like is developed in a, in a child. Then, you don't really have anything surgical until much later on in life. So if all goes well and there's no jaw issues or anything, you probably don't have another operation until you have what's called a bone graft, which is around the ages of 11 to 13, 14, which is really, it's cosmetic. So where the cleft is, there is no bone there. So there is an adult incisor tooth that doesn't descend because there's no bone there. So there's a bone graft surgery around that age. And, and then, most cleft kids have a last surgery when they are adults. So around the 18 and 20 year old mark, and it's usually related to the nose, and that's to correct any kind of deviated symptoms or anything so that, you know, there's breathing is much better. Okay. So at a. That. So pretty much the early years are pretty important then, right? Between one to four, say age one up to three or four or even younger, you want to get it first of all diagnosed pretty reasonably fast at that. But then you want to, I guess, you know, the idea would be where technology today, you know, Internet access or access to information, except for parents or carers of cleft effective people can be a real enabler candidate, can be pretty, pretty powerful stuff when, yeah, to, you know, eight, three or four, decades ago. They wouldn't have had that type of support. So it's really, it's really good. And I think that was part of your application, isn't it, your grant process. You mentioned about the digital access, is that right? Yes. So, you know, like any parent, you know, you watch for milestones for your child's development. And one of the things to watch for is development of speech. So when you have a structural issue with, you know, the, the shape of your mouth and the muscles in your mouth, speech development can be quite tricky because you learn, a child learns to speak in a certain way, but it's really about using the muscles, you know, and your mouth correctly. And when you have a structural defect, sometimes speech can develop, you know, incorrectly. Like they, you know, they start to talk with a lisp or they use an inappropriate or like the wrong part of their mouth. So that you missed, you know, from a speech point of view, you can't say certain sounds. So that early intervention is really, really important. And, you know, there is support, in the form of, you know, access to a cleft qualified speech pathologist in Australia as part of the cleft clinic. I mean, I have to say, you know, we're very lucky in Melbourne to have two world class, pediatric hospitals who have a cleft unit each. And the gold standards with cleft care is really to have a multidisciplinary team. There's usually a plastic surgeon that's involved with all the repairs. You might have an ENT specialist because the palate is connected to the ears, so there's sometimes hearing problems. there is a speech pathologist involved, and there's an oral and maxillofacial surgeon, and at some point also dentists and orthodontists. So it's a very, it's quite a big, you know, team, that medical team that cares for you. So in Melbourne, if you were a child that was, you know, that has a cleft lip and palate, you would be part of this network. And that care is coordinated through a clef care nurse, who basically connects all the specialists. so at critical points in a child's development, the two hospitals provide an assessment, but not therapy. I mean, you can imagine, you know, there's. Australia is a very big country. I mean, even Victoria alone, it's, it's, it's gigantic. And so often it's a, it's a tyranny of distance, you know, where the services you need may not always be in the town or the, wherever it is that you live. That's, you know, especially true of, regional families who often, you know, they might be traveling up to two to three hours to get to the two, you know, like primary pediatric hospitals for that, cleft appointment, you know, and then you kind of go bang, bang, bang. See different specialists at the same time. And then it's the in between time that we need to watch for. So when language develops, you know, the key thing is knowing when early, intervention is required. And that's really what the grant was about. you know, a couple of years ago, when I took on the president's role, we did a little survey with the, with the community to kind of understand what were some of the challenges that they faced. you know, so that as a, as a charity, we could be their voice to, you know, to health institutions and so forth about how, you know, how we can help them. Yeah, we as a committee, we did a call tree and we, we rang about 150 families and we just put a call out to say, hey, we want to talk to you wherever you live. Doesn't matter if you're not in Victoria. If you, you know, we would like to understand, you know, what concerns you have about your, your child's development. And overwhelmingly of the families that we contacted, it was concerns with access to speech therapy. I mean, there were families who, you know, were in rural Western Australia who said, well, we're a really long way away, you know, from Perth. Definitely. Yeah. And the services aren't here. And you know, it's very hard to access service. And that's where technology comes in. Yeah, you know, like the reality of this country means that often we need to consider telehealth as a, as a means of accessing the medical care that you need, just because it's not always in the town that you live in. And look, that reminds me of the myth about Theseus and the labyrinth. Right. I like that one where he uses, he went into Slayton, the Minotaur, and he uses Ariadne's thread, which is the secret. That's why he was the hero, because he had a thread to find his way back. And I think that that resonates for me when it comes to technology helping the parents and the carers of klept affected people. Because the thread was sort of this access to therapy or access to knowledge or shared care community. Because, often living out in the outback in Australia, it's so remote you hardly see your neighbors from one end of the Week to the next, let alone your local nurse or your, your, your healthcare facility. So yeah, that was a nice one as well. And I remember you were talking about you know, parents becoming type co therapists type thing. Right. So technology again can empower them to have access to information where the therapist, the expert does there a bit but then you know when they leave or as you say four or five hour drive back to where they live, they're not going to see a therapist maybe for another year or two years. It could be that long. It could be a fairly stretched out period. So puts more pressure on the parents and the carers to do that. And that again is where technology can keep that up to date, give them access. Telehealth is fantastic enabler. It's good for inclusion. Right. Just brings anybody together. So it's not just you know, those who have access to cities or, or, or the big towns. Yes, 100. So I was very lucky that you know, during my, my time as president and vice president of Clef House that I had I, I kind of connected with a bunch of people in the different sectors who are not just doctors. But I meant I connected with someone in the philanthropy sector, partly you know, because I was trying to figure out how to afford all these things that the charity wanted to do. and you know Ricky was quite, quite amazing with the knowledge and network that she had, you know, with people who had funds, you know, philanthropic funds that we could access with the you know, through a grant process to enable some of the grassroots community connection that we wanted to do. And then through Ricky, she introduced me to a social enterprise who was running telehealth, speech pathology services. I met with the founder of Ambo and you know Wei is an amazing guy and because he recognized the same problem that you know the problem was the, the speech pathologists were mostly in Melbourne and Sydney and there were a lot of people who didn't live in the cities. Yeah. You know, and that was really where you know I had many good conversations with way about you know, in those early years, of course you need access to the right cleft qualified speech pathologist. But it is also about practice. You know, when especially I think you know, Josh's surgeon, when Josh had his surgery, you know, gave me a very good piece of advice and he said if you know, if your son was to one day decide that he wanted to play a musical instrument, you Know, get him to play a brass or a woodwind instrument because all of them involve the mouth. And you know, by playing the instrument you're actually exercising those muscles in your mouth which is going to be excellent for him in the long run. So you know, and that, that's it really. And way it said exactly the same thing. It is about practice and repetition. So one of his you know, one of the things that he aims for is it's not, it's not so much about you know, doing telehealth or doing therapy with the child. Sometimes it is, but it's actually doing telehealth with the parents. So that it's a bit like train the trainer, you train the parents to watch out for the right things or ideas with the right games so that you can do play based therapy at the dinner table or you know, whenever the parent is with the child and has a couple of minutes to do that practice. so it is very much about that. And that's, that's you know, telehealth is a, is a, it's a great opportunity to do that. Yeah, look, I mean it's still, to some, to many people it's still kind of new though, right? We were talking about how, you know, there can be resistance from families sometimes to start, using technology for things like therapy sessions. And we know coming up in the future we have these now AI therapists coming out which are a little bit scary, but you know, we have all sorts of tech everywhere. And it brings us to the third point about you know, getting people's I guess, confidence, level up and thrust level up in tech, you know, the, because you know, there's a lot of bad press at the moment with AI and hallucinations and all these terrible things AI is doing and then there's privacy and all that. So. But when it comes to you know, therapeutic technology, as in for delivering therapy, it is vital. Right. For cleft affected people in remote areas because it's a very specialized service and it's a range of services. As you mentioned, it's speech therapists and it's surgeons and it's a lot of different specialists involved. And I guess that, that reminds me of the myth of Hugh the Great. So he, he you know, was studying the natural flow of water and instead of them trying to force water to do what they wanted to do, he found a way of letting water find its own way, which, which is a nice metaphor for if you want used technology to the best, you kind of have to go with, you know, the, the flow of where technology finds itself and there's a younger generation now where to them technology is embedded into their everyday life. So for young cleft effective people, kids being born, they nearly expect some sort of technology, enablement. And I guess, you know, a little bit of that was in your, in your grant applications, but it wasn't a nice way of where technology via, online therapy. There is a bit of a, you know, slight, shift there. Right. With mindsets to embracing it and seeing it as something that is trustworthy and you can have a positive impact with it. Yes. So the, the pathway to the grant and the idea behind the grant actually took a few turns. So the first attempt, you know, the idea was, well, if, if it's really hard for the families to, to get to therapy, what if we did a pilot program where we took the therapist to the patients, you know. So, I actually found an organization that in, Australia, there's a very well known, medical service called the Flying Doctors. You know, because of gigantic country, they fly doctors to the places, you know, where treatment is needed. And there was an equivalent allied health one, that you know, flew occupational therapists and, and you know, speech therapists to remote towns where they are needed. Right. So it's the equivalent of a Flying Doctor service, I guess, if you like. and the initial idea was what if we could get a couple of families who live in a similar geographic area to congregate in a town, a regional town, and then we could deliver small group therapy in person, and then in between have telehealth so that we could introduce the idea that telehealth would work, you know, just a good one. and, and, but that was incredibly difficult because it was needing, to find children that were the similar age that lived in the same remote geographical area. So it was quite challenging to set up. And then, and then earlier this year I, I went to India for a holiday and I, met, I met the surgeons at a cleft clinic. Just by chance, you know, I went, to visit a friend and her mom was a retired dentist who volunteers at a cliff clinic. And she said, oh, well, do you want to meet these people? And you know, I was on holidays, didn't really have definitive plans. So. Okay, let's go, let's go meet them. And by chance, the smallest world, one of the surgeons actually did his fellowship in Melbourne. So it was a very small world. and one of the questions that I had. That's right. So one of the questions I asked him was, you know, India is such a gigantic country and heavily populated, so how do you make these services, you know, available? Because there can't be that many cleft clinics around. And when I asked him, you know, where do your patients come from? Are they local? Are they. You know, so that. That particular cleft unit was actually, set up by international charity called the Smile Train. and their patients do come from a long way away. You know, I mean, this surgeon was telling me about, a patient that, she was a university student and she lives out in the Himalayas, you know, and for her to come down to actually get to her appointments was an ordeal because she didn't have a car. So she had to rely on her uncle, who sometimes went into town to take her to a town, and she'd have to find her own way to Bangalore, which is where the clinic was, which is really quite incredible. And he said, well, yes, for a lot of our patients, it is incredibly challenging. So, you know, and I, And I asked him about, what about young people? How do they connect? Because I'm trying to figure out how to connect the young people, the cleft affected young people, so that they have a little peer network. yeah. And, well, they connect on WhatsApp. That's it. That's right. And then I guess if there is a. Will people find a way. Yeah. And, so that when I came back to Melbourne, I, I had a connection, at University of Melbourne. she's a lecturer in, the speech pathology master's, degree there, and she's, a cleft specialist. So that's her passion. And, you know, that's where she ended up specializing. And I don't. I don't. I don't remember exactly how we met, but m. I met her and, you know, one of the. We. We had a few conversations about, you know, telehealth can be also about educating. It doesn't have to be one on one therapy. It comes in many forms. Yeah. The current iteration of the technology as a way to do telehealth, is now something that looks like this. So, the idea was that we, create, some podcasts or short videos from a qualified speech pathologist, who will talk about language and speech development. So that's really the critical years where a child develops speech. And, primarily the goal was to instill the message that language and speech development is about practice. And here's Some practical play based ideas that you could actually implement at home. And the second goal of these short videos is to also explain how language development and speech acquisition might be different for a cleft affected child and what to look for so that you know, if you start seeing certain patterns that's when you actually need the intervention and you go and seek out intervention. Okay, early intervention. Yeah, the survey. One of the things that families told us was that it is very expensive to pay for therapy every week. I mean it's roughly about you know, between the 200 to 220 mark the session of therapy. And that's a lot of money if you have to do therapy every week. So you know it's finding the happy. It's a good use of technology there, isn't it? It's like harnessing and reusing. You know, it's kind of like I mean I, I do I have this passion about storytelling for tech. So I have this small little master class I run and I run it only every two months, maybe, maybe every month and, but there's even parts of it that are pretty fundamental that I could just capture in short snippets and make, I, I make them available and they just educate people from the very early stage, you know about what I'm talking about which is storytelling to help sell technology better. But it can be applied to lots of different fields. I know I've, I've met a lot of parents who have and I have experienced myself around having anxiety and having kids that struggle, like most teenagers and getting access to anxiety therapist or a counselor can be hard. But you, there's a whole load of these YouTube short videos now you can watch and they're really educational and they can just get the foundation piece there right. Get the awareness out that they're not going through it alone. Look, this is a, it's a great journey you're on. I mean before we head towards the end I just wanted to talk about a few key takeaways I guess chang for our, for people listening. you know you've talked about families, clinicians and technology and, and cleft affected people. like what would be, I guess from a, from a tech perspective what would be in your view the key? I guess, you know, I guess the real value proposition tech brings to the likes of the society or vice president of or you know, in general climate theft affected people. I I guess my, my advice to families is to keep an open mind. Of course face to Face therapy is often the best, you know, especially if you're trying to get a young child to concentrate long enough, you know, to, to actually do the therapy. But the reality is it's a very big country and you know, I guess don't rule it out as a, as an option, as a treatment option. It may not be perfect, but it has a role, especially in a country this size. M. Yeah, and it also, you know, it's, there's a, there's an inclusion aspect there to it as well, isn't there? Like it's. I, mean, it's getting better, right? Tech in general, it's getting better. As in, all you need is a browser. You don't have to download sophisticated software or do much. You could even, even what you said, WhatsApp. societies use WhatsApp. Kids use WhatsApp as groups. Yes, yeah. But there is, there is this element of accessibility. and I think there's lots of different options now to people, right, who want to use technology to, to help them through this. Whether you're a cleft affected person or a carer or even a clinician, it's there. You don't have to download sophisticated software. You can use it, access a browser and it's. Or you could even use your mobile phone or later on an app, I'm sure. look, it's been great listening to your story around this whole thing. I know. Just before we wrap up, I know you're also, you know, obviously you're a leader in technology as well in Crown Resorts, and there's a lot of transformation going on, digital transformation in general, in the different services you provide. It must have been nice to be able to take some of that strategy and architecture and that sort of abstract problem solving skill sets and apply them to something that's so close to your heart and, see the outcome. Right. That must be quite, yes, it is quite nice. it's been nice to use some of the ideation techniques and facilitation techniques for the charity itself and you know, kind of produce an overall strategy about how we're going to raise funds, you know, and so I've actually been able to apply the strategizer frameworks to the charity as a, you know, as a little business, if you like. so, yes, it's been quite fulfilling to apply it in a context that's quite personal and quite, you know. Yeah, yeah. And you know, you think about, we have lots of frameworks like, you know, togaf and all these Architecture frameworks and we talk business strategy and we've operating models. We do a lot in tech that are, you know, meth a lot, you know, methods and frameworks that are proven and they work and they kind of make sense. But, but then to try to take that into something where how can technology, you know, enable. Better. Enable outcomes for cleft effective people? It's like, well, you can take the best bits and apply them and, the other bits, maybe you could. You, know, you don't need all of that skill set, but I do think a big part of it is your stakeholder management. Right. Is, is, is listening. I mean, really, it comes down to listening, doesn't it? It's, the. What is the need? And you're going for grants. Congratulations on getting the grant approval as well. I seen you sharing that on LinkedIn. Like, you know, it's not easy to get these grants, so, well deserved. you know, but even getting that is what you said earlier. It's a form of doing a strategy and a business case for a digital transformation program. It's no different. You're, you're bringing, you're using digital to transform how the, Cleft and Palate. Cleft Palate and Lip Society, operates for Victoria. Right. So you're bringing your technologies helping you do that. It's a great story. Absolutely. I mean, it is, it is, as you say, it is a business case from the funder's point of view. They want to see, you know, the outcomes, you know, for like, whatever it is, whatever the focus area is, whether it's better health outcomes for regional Australians or, you know, better health mental health outcomes for young families. Whatever it is, there's a particular, slant, you know, with what a funder will fund and what they won't fund. And it is about applying those skills to say, well, are we a strategic fit for this funder, or is this so much of an edge case that better off focusing somewhere else for funding? Yeah, yeah. Look, you know, when I was, talking to you before, but preparing for this podcast, I was thinking, you know, it's like, I really enjoy talking to leaders in tech and I particularly like women in tech because we haven't got enough women in technology. So it's fantastic to see you as a role model doing that. But also, just telling the story around how the technology can make that real difference. And, you know, it kind of brings me back to those three myths, really. Right around the storytelling. Right. It's like Menzies Mother she, she wanted to give the, her son the right environment so she moved house three times to find the right environment. And that's a physical move. Yes, but in, in modern day times people can't always move physically but they can move themselves into, into a more nurturing environment to help their, their children or those affected by cleft palate. Also there's Theseus in the labyrinth. So that's one of my favorites. But it's just using technology as the thread to stay connected and to you know, especially when you live very far away from these people in, who can help you in person. And then the third one was really about you the great. So that's really about just trusting the technology going with the movement which is all about accessibility and trusting the therapy side. It can be a bit difficult in the beginning but yes, I think the pros outweigh it greatly and I think it's the way tech is going anyway. People are beginning to realize, you know, the security is there and the privilege services there. So you can get onto telehealth and have a safe and positive session. Yes, but yeah, but that was, you know that was the three things for me that stood out. It's about you know, your journey is very inspirational as well and what you've done and what you continue to do as vice president. it's a good journey ahead of you guys and of course in the meantime you're architecting and strategizing inside Crown resorts. So you got, you got lots of exciting things going on. Thank you. It's been, you know, the reality is society and the digital world. Well that, that's always going to be part of our lives and our children's lives and you know there's a place for connection in the digital world too and it's just about finding what the happy balances. Yeah, I like that. It's very well said. It's about not just connecting at you know, you know, the interaction level which is hey, let's get on a call and, and share this therapy session. It's more just having that you know, like that you can find out about what other societies are doing on the other side of the world now and you can have these, you know, sharing experiences that technology enables. I think it's fantastic. And it just breaks. That brings in different cultural aspects as well. You know, like what does clef now what does, how do clef affected people get, you know, what is their experience in say Europe versus America versus Australia versus some of the Middle, East or African countries. It very likely varies, but technology can be that kind of leveler, that kind of common enabler I guess to, to help people, you know, share and, and you know, I guess find their way 100%. And there, there are, you know, a surprising number of charities and not for profit organizations around the world that are connected with clefs either because they, you know, doing missions, you know, to, to help a certain community, you know, where you know, a whole medical team gets, gets on a plane and you know, arrives at a, at a location and you know, does multiple surgeries. Amazing. And to other charities that just continue to promote well being and you know, mental health, for essentially one is a lifelong condition. You know, you're always going to look a little different for quite some time and you m. Might sound a little different, you know, depending on the severity of the cleft. Quite some time. And at the end of the day we all want a sense of belonging and there's lots of people out there wanting to do something about creating a sense of belonging. Yeah, and that's the, it's like the mythical village, isn't it really? It's about M as you know, giving I guess for leaders like yourself, you know, giving back a little bit where you can of you know, your learnings and skills, but also, you know, to celebrate this world we live in today, which is very diverse and we have a lot of awareness about, you know, there's, there's always a way to reach other people who might be experiencing the same thing, things you're experiencing and just embrace and use tech to do that and it has much better outcomes for everybody. Well look, Chang, thank you so much for your time for talking so openly about your experience and your exciting journey with the Cleft Palate and Lip Society of Victoria. May I ask, if any of our audience wants to get in touch or to support you guys, how can they go about doing that? Yep. So we have a website, if you Google Cliff Palace Victoria, it's the first link that Google will return. there's some information, we also are on Instagram so you can find us at Quest Palace Victoria. and we're on Facebook. I'm trying to get the committee to figure out how we get on TikTok. Yeah, you have to be on all the platforms these days. It's like. Well it's funny though, age group that we cover. Yeah, we need to be on all of them. Yeah, it's funny you say that because today I, I ended up connecting with someone, he's an author on LinkedIn, but I found them through Tick Tock, like, and, and, and then, and then before I jumped to LinkedIn, actually a real. And Tick Tock took me to a YouTube short that was a TED talk that then took me to him on LinkedIn. And I, I read the YouTube comments and many of them said Tick Tock brought me here. Which is what's the chances of Tick Tock bringing people to. you know, he was a leadership guy who talks about Eastern type philosophies. But yeah, again, I'm sure the algorithm knows what's going on, but it was quite interesting. But yeah, look, that's when fantastic. And people can get in touch with you that way. and look, I'll put a link at the bottom, of the information I share here, on the podcast as well, so people can help you out. So, Cheng, thank you so much for all you've done and keep leading the way. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to share a little bit of our story as a charity.