Wine for the People: Cha McCoy on Culture, Connection & Breaking Wine Stereotypes

Summary

In this episode, certified sommelier and cultural tastemaker Cha McCoy uncorks a fresh perspective on the world of wine. As founder of The Communion dinner series and author of the newly released book Wine Pairing for the People: The Communion of Wine, Food, and Culture from Africa and Beyond (released yesterday), Cha challenges long-held wine stereotypes and invites us to reimagine how wine fits into our everyday lives. She shares how cultural connection, inclusivity, and curiosity can make wine more meaningful—one glass and one story at a time. 

Takeaways

 • Wine isn’t just about regions and ratings—it’s about people, culture, and connection.
• Cha McCoy is rewriting the rules of wine by making it inclusive, approachable, and rooted in community.
• Pairing wine with global cuisines opens new doors to flavor and understanding.
• Breaking stereotypes in the wine world means making space for every palate and perspective.
• Her new book Wine Pairing for the People (out November 4th) is both a celebration and a call to action for a more diverse wine culture. 

Check out Cha's book Wine Pairing for the People and consider expanding your wine pairing journey to include cuisines from Africa, Asia, Caribbean and more!

Transcript

Laurie Forster (00:29)
Welcome back to The Sipping Point. I'm excited to introduce you to Cha McCoy, author of a new book called Wine Pairing for the People. And these are not your typical pairings. She'll be up in a few minutes. But I wanted to announce that my bubbly pack is here. If you go to thewinecoachclub.com, you can see my bubbly pack, three of my favorite sparkling wines I've chosen that are going to take you through the holidays and beyond. All three wines for only $80.

and free shipping if you use the code FORESTERCOACH. That's F-O-R-S-T-E-R-C-O-A-C-H and you get that free shipping. those three Bubblies are also the three I'm gonna feature in my upcoming virtual tasting, Bubbly Bash 2025 on December 10th. And info about that, if you wanna join me live as I take you through these three great wines is at thewinecoach.com. Just click on events and you'll get

all the information. All right, today's guest is Cha McCoy. She's an entrepreneur, educator, and certified sommelier whose mission is to make wine approachable and deeply connected to culture. Named one of wine enthusiasts 40 under 40, Cha is the creator of the Communion Wine Dinner Series

and author of the brand new book, Wine Pairing for the People, the Communion of Wine, Food and Culture from Africa and Beyond. From Michelin star restaurants to mentoring at Syracuse University, Cha is redefining what it means to share wine with purpose.

Laurie Forster (02:00)
Cha, welcome to The Sipping Point.

Cha McCoy (02:02)
Thanks for having me, Laurie.

Laurie Forster (02:03)
So excited to have you here, just right at the launch of your new book. And we're going to talk all about that. But I love when I have these amazing women of wine in on the show. And I always love to talk about your origin story,

what was your journey to wine?

Cha McCoy (02:19)
I'd like taking this story in two different directions, the one that's gonna save us the most amount of time is when I moved to Italy. So I was doing my MBA in international finance in Rome, Italy, and I was super stoked about obviously being immersed in the culture, and that means everything from having pizza multiple times during the week to learning about cheese as well. I always joke that if it wasn't wine, would have become a sommelier

I have been a cheese monger because I was tasting all the cheese when I was there too.

the intricacies of even the names of the different types of pasta for the different shapes and different regions. So I would like to say I like deep, I was deep diving into the culture, especially from gastronomy and wine was part of that adventure while I was living there. that was, you know, it became like a hobby to kind of learn about these different more, whether you say traditional or technical parts of their culture. And you start recognizing how important region, regionality was.

To be in Italian or understanding Italian cuisine. So that's you know connecting history and a little bit of you know Travel side travel happening to is you know, I was hooked They had me hooked in from that moment and I came back to the US Still craving, you know, like oh we call it reverse culture shock. I was living out there for close to two years now I've returned back to the States. I'm from Harlem came back to the city. It was like, oh, how do I still keep

Laurie Forster (03:21)
Mm.

Cha McCoy (03:50)
that feeling that I had, that vigor for life that I missed while living there. And I was like, well, wine was fun and I enjoyed learning about it when I was there. Very informal, I wasn't at any wine schools while living in Rome, but I was like, okay, maybe this is a cool opportunity while I'm settling back in for me to actually work at the local wine shop. Because I was excited about like now that I know all this information about Italian wine.

let me go pick out wine, because now I have this knowledge. So I found which was at the time the best, this was 2012, the best wine shop in the area that had a great selection of Italian wines. And I was like, you know what, I'm having so much fun coming here to shop for wine. I actually applied for a job there. So that's kind of like my first paid job 2012 is when I got in the industry.

Laurie Forster (04:38)
Wow, and what was the

shop? I'm curious. Okay.

Cha McCoy (04:40)
the winery and it's located on

116th and 8th Avenue and it's still there.

Laurie Forster (04:45)
That's an amazing journey. What was it that took you from working at that wine store to now having your own thing, your own book? What really kind of sparked you to go out on your own?

Cha McCoy (04:57)
Yeah, when I was working at the shop, I was at the intersection of a multicultural, you know, world was happening right in front of me. So it's 2012 and

Little Senegal or Petite Senegal was 116th Street in the Thillis is named that affectionately because of the Senegalese culture that was basically finding respite on that street. It's a large mosque that was very important. Senegalese are Muslim, are Muslim and so they became very connected. This is the same mosque that Malcolm X

we were walking distance to Columbia University. And then someone like myself, who's third generation from Harlem, our culture was there. So it was like a melting pot of different cultures happening. And we were a wine store in the center of all of this, where there's university students and professors.

Senegalese culture growing and so therefore a lot of our Senegalese small restaurants even butcher etc is all like next to where the store was and then we have folks who are from Harlem that's been there for years which is my background and family and we that corner end up being very important because we're right in front of a train station and everyone as soon as they got off work or was on their way to church or to the mosque etc they would actually

stop at the the shop afterwards or on a way to like before they cooked and went home a lot of the restaurants that because Senegalese are many of them are from the Islam practice in Islam excuse me so a lot of them are not may not partake in alcohol but their restaurants allow for BYOB for everyone else to be able to join them so I used to have a lot of guests who were whether it was tourists or whomever who were going to those

restaurants, they will come into the shop, buy wines and actually take it with them to those restaurants. And that was probably the first time that I was thinking like, we're I'm eating this food and how come the wine is not being taught to me in this way? Like, how come wine is not in my sommelier classes, my WSET training, we're talking about pairings, and we're not ever mentioning like how I have to like learn on a go, you know, so I will walk in and say I'm going to this restaurant.

And I'm like, don't know, no one's teaching me how to pair the food. So I have to actually learn this and figure it out, you know, on my own here. So I started actually eating at the restaurants myself. That's how I'm not Senegalese. I don't have any connection beyond the fact that I lived in Harlem and they have a strong community there. And that's where I started getting interested in pairing wines from other cultures. Now, my own food that I have in the house,

I always paired wine with the food that I'm eating, meaning soul food, et cetera, that my mother taught me to cook and that I'll cook at home. If I'm having Italian lasagna that I made at home or if I'm having fried chicken, I always had wine and food pairings there. But talking about cultures that I don't, you know, I didn't grow up eating that I learned about, it truly was because I was in a store that worked at a shop that actually had all those connections. So that's where I guess it kind of started.

Laurie Forster (08:07)
you were learning something that really a lot of people weren't talking about was pairing wines with these different cultural foods that weren't necessarily, you know, in our WSET training. that is also the route that I took as well. And, and really probably generating knowledge that not many people in the world have. I understand you took it to the people.

Cha McCoy (08:29)
Yes.

Laurie Forster (08:30)
in the form to begin with, correct? Tell me a little bit about those.

Cha McCoy (08:34)
Yeah, so that kind of birthed the communion. So now I had access to me being able to like

learn about wine, I'm speaking with people, I feel confident. I was speaking with people about wine that I'm selling at the shop and all the access of being able to like, how do I spread this conversation a little bit more widely? So I did almost like wine dinner pop-ups in my apartment. Started with just friends and family, then it became like neighbors, my larger community, people that I don't really know personally in my apartment to come over for these wine dinners.

and then I got too big for my living room and so that's when I started doing dinner takeovers at restaurants and so that's where I birthed into and then eventually opened in my own wine shop later on but the communion in the book itself that's why I was a little node to the communion in the subtitle of the book you know it's this is a legacy that kind of continues from those wine dinner experiences that I was that I in my living room

Laurie Forster (09:36)
I was going to bring that up, you know, in wine pairing for the people. You really do give us a picture into so many of the world's cultures and foods that many people may not have a lot of touch points to and may not know a lot about. I know I am learning so much as I go through the book about different cuisines and places that I have never visited. And I also know your goal is to make wine more inclusive.

which I think we all need to keep doing and doing and doing. So was that the inspiration for the book or what would you say was the inspiration? Because writing a book is not for the faint of heart.

Cha McCoy (10:12)
None of it is opening the business while writing the book is probably even crazier. But yet it

I guess I drew off the inspiration of this is like reminding myself this is what I do already. You know, this is the way that I talk about wine, whether it's my students at Syracuse University, whether it's trade related, if I'm being hired to, you know, talk about a consortium's wine, how are the different ways that we can explore, you know, this wine beyond the traditional way that we're taught. And the same way when I'm talking to people at my own store, you know, if I'm at my shop, I'm really trying to get people

to explore different wines and I love when people know that they feel connected with that even though I don't look like them you know whether someone with Indian background etc this is not like wine is for black people this is wine is for all people here's what I you know it's very clear and the idea that we've made sure all of the wine focus when it's related to food has been so Eurocentric is more or less that I didn't want to cut out anybody not just even you know

I could have wrote a whole book on people who look like me or people who are from where I'm from, but I wanted to also feel like everyone deserves wine at the table and we're not all.

eating beef bourguignon every day and having foie gras as our pairings. Even though I worked in the restaurants, that is the type of food that I'm used to pairing wines with and that I'm taught. I just wanted everyone to like just start at home, be able to, you know, that's why it was important to include recipes as well.

Laurie Forster (11:29)
you

Cha McCoy (11:46)
I think it was how do we bring even some of these cultures and dishes to our house? And I understand most people may think, Mexican food is just tacos, right? But it's like how do even a culture you may feel more connected to, maybe there's more to explore as well, you know? So all my travels is a big thread throughout the book. I think that most people...

I wanted to pay homage to the culture that I've been able to become more intimate with from whether it's traveling there for a short stint or even getting to be a little bit more immersed from doing three months to even over a year in certain countries. And that was very important to me. People always say, what brought you to wine? I think even when you asked me about my wine journey, it all started with me moving to Italy. So travel is at heart for me. was no one bottle that I was like,

Laurie Forster (12:31)
Yes.

Cha McCoy (12:34)
I tasted this 19 something, you know from wherever and then all of a sudden I fell in love with wine it was me being immersed in the Italian culture and Being able to learn more about it was a way to learn and be more connected to them While I was in Italy that wine was ended up being a threat and so therefore Whether it was like I said cheese or the language or etc I was able to build on top of wine in order to be more connected and I still treat the the folks that I know for

Laurie Forster (12:42)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (13:03)
my time living in Italy back from 2010, I still have them as part of my family right now because I took the step to move out there, learn about the different culture, and now have developed kind of like this second family with the folks that was living out there with me. And I feel the same way about all the places that I've traveled to that I recognize in the book.

Laurie Forster (13:22)
love that you start out the book with, you know, a little primer on tasting wine, because I know when people are just getting started, that's, know, like, am I doing it right? You know, how do I go through this process? And one of the things that you talk about after you go through, you know, the the see, the smell, you know, the taste, the ability to describe, and then of course, later pair.

is the flavor wheel, which I learned about in my wine training. Dr. Anne Noble came up with the flavor wheel, but you have a different take on it. So I'm curious as to how you kind of adapted the flavor wheel and how you think it's helpful for people who are maybe struggling for, know, what do I smell? What do I taste? And how that can help you when you're pairing.

Cha McCoy (13:55)
Yeah.

So, you know, I really thought it was important for, the flavor wheel exists, right? And for those who, you know, I do have the book. I wish I had the page flag so I could show. But for those who are not familiar with it, it's almost like a color wheel if you were in the arts and you were learning about how to build about, you know, what colors are the opposite or what colors are adjacent and will be good to wear together.

You know so you can learn how to build so for those who may have had that as an image as someone who studied architectural design and engineering I'm familiar with this kind of like wheel with all the colors already from my previous life in my studies But now to see it in a flavor form It was not new to me I guess so I I thought it was important for me to put in the book because it helped me now I don't know the word I should have been prepared for this though

when someone is is it called synesthesia when you're

Laurie Forster (15:06)
Synthesasia.

Cha McCoy (15:07)
Is that when you like colors is very sensitive to colors? So one of my staff members at the store, she's like, every time you think about a wine, like when I'm just talking openly about it, I always talk about color. And so I didn't realize that I was this sensitive to color as much. I thought everybody was. And so clearly the flavor wheel for me was very important. And even though, know, shout out to my illustrator, I didn't really think about the colors and how, you know,

Laurie Forster (15:09)
Yes.

Cha McCoy (15:35)
but also that it made sense. Like if we're talking about citrus notes, we should see them in yellows and greens, et cetera, versus like in purple. even like everyone understands it. And so this is very common for me when I'm pairing, but maybe not so common for everyone else when they're tasting. And that is common. I can eat a dish and think of a color and that informs what wine. Now that may not be for you, Laurie, may not be for a lot of other people.

Laurie Forster (15:42)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (16:03)
but that may be my own personal kind of like superpower right but I recognize how do I build how can I still share that in a way with people who feel like they can connect to this idea of color and flavor and still let them choose their adventure.

Laurie Forster (16:07)
No, I-

Cha McCoy (16:22)
Back to our studies in wine, they're like, this is the lexicon. These are the words we use. And this is the vocabulary of what you should find in a proper or traditional Sauvignon Blanc. And from this region versus another one. In this case, thought about reviewing. I just started doing a backlog of all of my tracing journals and look at what words I use often. And I feel like, obviously, if you don't take actual notes, so this is now a professional

Laurie Forster (16:47)
Mmm.

Cha McCoy (16:50)
Cha

Cha connecting with everyone right now. Take your notes on your tastings. It is helpful. Because then you start building almost your own lexicon, right? And for me, that's what I work off of. And now this is because I'm the one with the book deal, I get to put it in a flavor wheel. Does not mean that this is the rule, though. This is kind of my own tasting journal.

Laurie Forster (17:00)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (17:13)
transformed into a flavor wheel, if that makes sense for you. So I think everyone should do this. I feel like it was a great exercise. Obviously it was fun because I obviously had an illustrator who can make it look beautiful. But I just started looking at what flavors in my brain that's coming up throughout the years, like going through an old diary of like when you was in high school or something. Like what traumas do I still have today? So you're looking at my tasting.

Laurie Forster (17:16)
Totally.

Right.

Cha McCoy (17:38)
notes from the past and pointed out like this came up often for Riesling or this came up often when I describe this style of wine I must clearly am sensitive to that or I get that and so you that kind of embarks confidence on everybody individually when they're tasting and I would you know employ everyone to do that no matter if you're trying to train to be a sommelier or if you're just trying to build your own palate don't let me because I'm the one who the book tell you that that is the flavor that's in it I think that once you get more

accustomed to your own palette, you recognize what you're more sensitive to. Like I love sour things. So for me, wouldn't you know, sour and tart is my jam. So I'm all I'm great. know, that that's something that I that comes easily for me to identify on my palate. But I but I enjoy that flavor. So it wouldn't be anything that I would be so like, like

Laurie Forster (18:14)
Me too.

Yeah.

Cha McCoy (18:28)
adverse to when I'm tasting it in the wine. With somebody else, like, oh, that's too tart, too much citrus. I'm like, really? Like, you know, I would enjoy that. And I think I even led in that same breath, too. People don't even know how to do that. Like, if you want to even go a further step, is think about what you drink that no one tells you what it tastes like. So many of my students always like, I don't know, the words. I'm like, well, here's a test. Do you like Pepsi or Coca-Cola? And they go Coca-Cola. Now, you didn't need a box.

Laurie Forster (18:29)
Right.

Personal

Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (18:56)
soda song to teach you that. Now tell me why you why you chose like no I love Coca-Cola but why like you know explain no because Pepsi tastes like this or it doesn't have that or do you like Seagram's or Canada Dry Ginger Ale and then you have the conversation and people always got a particular option that they would go for and you understand that no one had to train you

or your palate to tell you to identify why you like this ginger ale versus the other or this cola versus the other. And so these are exercises that I go through with my students on a very beginner level to first give them the courage and confidence to believe in their palate first. You obviously can do this without me. You just need to like lock in on what your palate's telling you. So that's kind of the whole experience.

Laurie Forster (19:37)
Yes. I love the tie

to color because one of the things I do, because you know, like if we're going through a tasting, you'll say, okay, so, you know, what do people smell? Crickets. Nobody wants to say a word because they're just so intimidated. And I get it when I'm at professional tastings, it's intimidating to be the first one to throw something out there. But what I do, and it's kind of similar to what you're saying, is I say, think of the colors of the rainbow.

Cha McCoy (19:52)
That's good.

Yes.

Laurie Forster (20:04)
And, and always ask people, do you remember the acronym to remember the colors of the rainbow? Because most everybody remembers Roy G Biv are the red, orange, yellow, green, green, blue, indigo and violet. And then just start there. And once you start with the color, then it feels almost easier to back into the fruits or the herbs or the minerality or the earth. It just takes the pressure off a little bit of the exact aroma. So I love that you put it into a wheel and into a wheel with the color that

It made sense to you. And so I found that fascinating. ⁓

Cha McCoy (20:32)
Yes.

Instead of

just listing a bunch of words for everyone, I was like, if they connect maybe with color, then they'll understand maybe it's in this family. Like, oh, okay, maybe a line that has notes from this family would make sense. So that's what I try to do.

Laurie Forster (20:38)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

I'm

totally on board with you. I love this. So speaking of pairing, because that's obviously the, you know, the focus of the book is about pairing and pairing with non-traditional cuisines and foods. But if you, people are just a little intimidated by pairing just to begin with, what is the, you know, the one thing they should think about or maybe a gateway pairing that would kind of open up their eyes or just a great place to start in your mind.

Cha McCoy (21:18)
Yeah, I feel like this is a tricky question. Maybe not the answer you want, Laurie but it is kind of just start with the dish you love. Like you're confident about that dish already, right? to be honest, if you really love barbecue ribs, you know, and you know how to describe it, you know, when the ribs is not made well, like, you know, a dish that you either

love because you have it often or that you cook often yourself so you can understand that dish. I feel like that's a best place to start. I think that when it comes to how to you know pick a line and go with it if that dish is not written in my book is really trying to find something similar and then be able to go okay she didn't talk about this but yeah this is the same type of technique and sauce and etc use and

that would be a great way to connect. Sometimes people get so stuck on protein, on like, I'm having salmon. So what red wine you think goes with salmon? I don't know how you cook in the salmon, you know? So it is a lot of conversation going.

Laurie Forster (22:10)
Right.

Cha McCoy (22:11)
you know, about like, you know, fish deserves white wine, etc. Or, you know, but it could get, you know, have red. But I mean, it depends on what's the sides. What's the sauce? Is this all set at all? You know, and I feel like that's the important part that the question that like a lot of the proteins are the same in the book is about the different cultures are cooking in a different way, using a different season, using different sauce. And that's what makes that dish special. mean, fishes throughout the entire book. But it doesn't mean that you would have the same wine.

Laurie Forster (22:21)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (22:40)
with every fish dish you know so I feel like that's the best way to explore and then actually get it wrong I think that you is nothing like saying I just had these barbecue ribs with this Moscato and if you're like no that wasn't it wasn't it wasn't a match made in heaven you know or something seemed off then I could tell you that's the best way to learn so then you're like okay let me figure out what's this other like if there's another option and ask questions from your local wine shops like

Laurie Forster (22:43)
Right.

I

Cha McCoy (23:09)
was the owner of and obviously worked at and I think that's important too is kind of invite us part of your journey. think that's retailers, carves, we're very excited to be a part of you exploring and actually finding a new wine to go with that dish that you love.

Laurie Forster (23:25)
Yeah, and I think it is trial and error. And I love giving people permission to, know, you're gonna get it right sometimes, you're gonna get it wrong sometimes. And I used to think when I was first starting, and I think some people do that, there was like a big chart. And if we just memorize that this goes with this and that goes with that, then you just be done. But it's not that simple. And it's much more fun to, you know, try all these different pairings.

like you have in the book. And you know, it's also personal because what you might think is the best, you know, the next person maybe, you know what, this one's a little better for me. In the book, you organize by countries. So you have Africa, you have Latin America, you have the US even in there, Asia. How should people start using the book after we get through the intro of tasting and some of the background?

Cha McCoy (24:11)
now.

Laurie Forster (24:11)
wine. What's the best way to use this book? Because I know there's a few different ways.

Cha McCoy (24:16)
I mean, I truly think you should just dive in with whatever region's calling you, to be honest. think that if you, think culturally, some people are gonna flip exactly like, I'm from here or my family's from here and so I wanna see what she's talking about in the Caribbean. So that may be a way that people may dive in and kind of find their way exploring. I think that is, however you eat, to be honest, if you like, tonight, I'm having sushi, I'm flipping to, see what she's talking about with sushi.

the best way. wanted to be not a textbook that sit on the walls. I wanted to be something that people are engaging with throughout their, you know, I'm sure they'll be exploring food for the rest of their lives. So a book that can live on is not just for the moment. I think that was a big part of making a book that would stay in the test of time as you continue to explore. Having all those cultures identified in regions was very important for me to get people to also see

beyond the same way is almost a twofold. I want people to see that wines, even the most high end wines and styles of wines, whether it's Bordeaux or champagnes can go with food from all these different cultures. But at the same time, I also wanted people to recognize that you can drink wine beyond the varietals that you normally hear, you know, and I think like, so it's too, I also wanted to introduce folks to, so that was probably even a second challenge for me.

Laurie Forster (25:33)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (25:39)
was I've really was like I know shout out to Layla my co-author she probably drove her crazy I was like we said this grape too often we need to redo them so we challenged ourselves to even like not repeat

a varietal or region too often so that we can come up with another pairing. Like there's so many grapes out there and some of them get no love. So underrepresented regions, underrepresented varietals was very important for me to highlight. I lived in Portugal.

Laurie Forster (26:01)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (26:10)
and worked alongside a lot of winemakers who were fighting to keep their indigenous grapes alive because of the propaganda that no one is going to care about a nigra mole, which is a rare small grape from the Algarve region when you can just replant, I guess, Pinot Noir there and make more money for it, right? So if these, the extinction of grapes is like, we see that happening in the wine industry. And so I also

like it was important for me to highlight like different regions maybe you've never even thought of giving like even if you are going to get a Sauvignon Blanc but maybe you've never had one from you know from Chile from Casablanca you know so I feel like how do we have a lot more

conversation about some of the other regions as well. So that was a big part for me too. And I hope that people resonate with that as well. It's like, OK, I've had charbet, but not from here. Or I've had Pinot, but this one says from New Zealand. Let me get one from New Zealand. And so that's a conversation also for wine and the longevity of wine, especially when they keep telling us wine sales are down. I'm like,

Laurie Forster (27:04)
Yeah.

Cha McCoy (27:20)
Well, let's talk about new, what's new about Juana is not being talked about, right? And I feel like with the growing amount of different food cultures, especially turn into fast casual dining, whether it's a fast casual Indian food, a lot of these, I don't know where you have, have like Cavas and so Mediterranean, inspired from, know, Turkey and Greece, et cetera, becoming more of like an everyday diner.

Laurie Forster (27:25)
Yes.

Cha McCoy (27:48)
type of food. Even the increase of West African dining on a dining scene is also happening. I feel like it's almost like perfect timing that the book like I didn't know that was gonna happen but in New York City that's how like I said I already was in 2012 was already pairing with people who were bringing you know the wine to Senegalese BYOB so for me that was already part of my culture being a New Yorker to kind of dine in this way and kind of go to a different neighborhood and

Laurie Forster (27:58)
Good thinking!

Cha McCoy (28:16)
to out and eat thanks to my dad just kind of showing me around the different neighborhoods and eating in a very multicultural palate I guess you would say, when I was young. And now I can see we're finally at a time where diners are also.

interested beyond just kind of like hamburgers, wings and know, like, you know, Thai food had its moment. So I talked about Thai pairings because I recognize there was a like, equally was interested. Why did Thai food become a thing? It was a new hip, know, international cuisine that everybody felt like was accessible and everybody had their drunken noodles. Like it had a moment for me when I was in my 20s, I realized, and everybody was drinking

Laurie Forster (28:39)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (29:00)
Eating drunken drunken noodles and things like that I'm like but that happened because of something like there must have been an increase in immigrants around that time there was you know how We need to recognize there is a shift in the way that we're eating especially in big cities And that has a lot to do with the cultural connections of you know America like what there is a change something

Laurie Forster (29:20)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (29:21)
immigrants laws something changed and that's why we never wanted to talk about what's going on right now in America but that's why those increased dining scenes happened at those times so I'll put a pin there but that is kind of like the underbelly of where I'm trying to tap into as well.

Laurie Forster (29:28)
you

Yes.

I appreciate how you incorporated so many different varietals in there with the pairings. And, you know, really, I think that this book could be a guide to explore not only the other cultures and the food, but also you're exploring so many different kinds of wines. Now, in the Caribbean section, you suggested a Syrtico, which I actually happen to have here. It's a Greek white.

Cha McCoy (30:01)
Yes.

Laurie Forster (30:02)
originates in Santorini. This one's from the northern part of Greece from wine art. It's called Plano, but it's delicious. And you had paired it with a San Cocho. I think I'm saying that right. Tell me a little bit about that dish. I would never have dreamt up that pairing, I don't think, because I haven't ever tried the food. And so now I'm so excited to give it a try. So tell me a little bit about that dish and

Cha McCoy (30:14)
Yes.

Laurie Forster (30:28)
you know, how you really tackled, you know, have you spent a lot of time in the Caribbean and that's just a dish you've always known or.

Cha McCoy (30:35)
So Sancocho is definitely well it is a Let's start with saying a stew brothy like soup

it is a beef stew I've had versions of it and I actually do mention in the book that I do not eat beef so I traditionally cannot have this pairing but there is times where I am in places where they have substituted out the beef for either just all vegetables and or chicken is there as well so like shredded chicken in it but

⁓

But it's traditionally with beef and so I don't get to have it as often unless I'm in the house and someone made it for me. But all the spices and the herbs that is there is what I was trying to play up to. It's really about how do we transform this dish that may be very humble dish and you can find fish versions of it as well. But like I said, beef is very traditional and it made me think about where can I find some wine that's going to be

hardy enough to balance out the weight of this stew basically and so that's what I was playing off of you know there is a lot of

Laurie Forster (31:37)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (31:38)
Grandma's recipes. No one really wants to tell you all the things but that's in it. There's taro, cassava, yuca, potatoes, plantains. Green plantains. It's very starchy so you do want a wine that is going to be able to handle that but not dissipate. I could go light red as well but a more heartier white.

Laurie Forster (31:41)
Right?

Cha McCoy (32:05)
that can hold up to the seasoning of it as well as all of the starchy items on top of the protein is why that makes for a perfect pairing for me.

Laurie Forster (32:14)
And it's a little unexpected because I think people still have that old myth in their head like, there's beef, it has to be red. You you can do this and this, you know, cleanses the palate because of that great acidity in the Assyrtiko If you haven't had a Assyrtiko, think stylistically like Sauvignon Blanc-ish, but different. But if you like that style of a crisp wine, you're definitely going to like this. And mine's from wine art. It's called Plaino and

Cha McCoy (32:27)
Yeah.

Laurie Forster (32:40)
around $30 bottle delicious, highly recommend that pairing. Now you mentioned having a pairing that doesn't work. So you have any specific pairing disasters in your mind that you think, you know, that just didn't work?

Cha McCoy (32:54)
think that

some people just over, like our palates are just like, when you're not used to having, I'm gonna say beverages, and I'm gonna say just wine, that may not always be sweet, you kinda like, oh, this is too bitter. Like everything just goes in this large bucket. If it's not sweet, it's bitter. And so there is sometimes a...

language barrier between how do we describe sweet and fruit, know, ripe fruit presence. And so there's so many people that I've seen, you know, really fall in love with a wine.

Laurie Forster (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (33:31)
and it was no residual sugar in it. So I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, I love sweet wine. And therefore, unfortunately, a pair lot of sweet wine with food and like that are safe, that savory and the it's not, I'm like, okay, enjoy. But I don't know if I would put that two together, you know? And but I can understand someone is thinking a guest in your restaurant, imagine is thinking, I love this wine, you have it. And even though I'm ordering a steak, I'm still going to order this sweet rosé.

Laurie Forster (33:49)
I'm

Cha McCoy (34:01)
I'm like, will never be the pairing. That will never be the pairing for me. But I can see how they brain is saying yes and yes to both. I love steak and I love this wine. It's sweet. And I feel like as sommeliers instead of like us judging them, we're not doing the right. We're not doing them any service by, you know, maybe they're going to enjoy it. So let's let them have how, what they want. But explaining why a pairing would work is because they're enjoying the wine separately, like kind of like out of context. They're like, I love

steak, eating the steak, but where they're not actually enjoying it with the wine. So it's very hard for us to kind of get our guests sometimes to see the difference that both can be the same. You can enjoy that steak and also order that very, that sweet rosé that you ordered, but that's because you technically are not having experience together. You are chewing and eating and just have enjoying your steak. And then when you're finished or after you have a few bites or in your palate clean, you're taking a sip of this sweet wine.

Laurie Forster (34:35)
Mm-hmm.

Cha McCoy (34:58)
you're having two separate experiences not as you and I know having it together meaning I'm chewing the steak and I'm also drinking the wine and actually they're both interacting in my mouth at the same time which would make for a pairing right so so I feel like that's this is probably slowest I've ever like explained that because I don't want to feel like I'm judging someone if they ordered a sweet wine to go with their steak I think it's a matter that they're enjoying it simply because they're actually not

Laurie Forster (35:12)
Wha, right?

Exactly.

Cha McCoy (35:28)
having them on top of each other. And so that is separating them having a like paired experience. So that would not be clearly the pairing for me. I don't think in no way maybe there's a you know, there are some really good rosés out there from Provence that I do feel like can go with a more rare medium, you know, rare steak, but it would have to be one of these like fuller like

Laurie Forster (35:30)
Right?

Nah.

Cha McCoy (35:51)
let's say darker red, fuller reds that I'm thinking of that can kind of work like from Tavel or something, you know, that would be amazing. But this is not what I was referring to just now. I'm talking about kind of the sweeter ones, the Moteis of Portuguese, Rosés, if anybody knows.

Laurie Forster (36:00)
Yeah.

Yes, I know.

Well, I think it's because a lot of us didn't grow up drinking wine at the dinner table. So in a way, you know, I always joke with people that, you know, when you grow up that way, you kind of see wine, gin and tonic, beer, you know, they're drinks. They're not, you know, necessarily linked to the meal. They're not linked to the food. But when you go and you lived in Italy, obviously you right away see like this is these two are part of the recipe, you know.

Cha McCoy (36:14)
Correct.

correct.

Laurie Forster (36:36)
The wine

is the last ingredient here and you really focus on how the wine tastes better with the food and how the food tastes better with the wine. And if you've done it right, that's, you know, I think such an amazing experience. And I bet in your events, and I know it is for me too, when you see that light bulb go on with people, when they really try it together and they taste it first and go, I don't think I like this wine, but no, no, no, have the food, go back to the wine. And then they're like, my gosh, you know,

Cha McCoy (36:39)
correct.

Laurie Forster (37:04)
It really is an amazing experience. So I love that you put this book together to not only get people to stretch maybe cuisines that they haven't tried or that they already love. If there's somebody that knows every dish in this book, I mean, they are amazing because there's so much in here and it just grows your palate, not only with the wine, but the food too.

And the recipes that you had, the chefs and mixologists, how did you choose who you would feature the recipes? Are you a big cook yourself or?

Cha McCoy (37:35)
This is...

Yeah, every time you ask me question, I like sigh, because I'm having flashbacks of every moment of like, what did I take on? To be honest, it was so much of a project that I thought when the book came out, I like, this is too small. Something must be missing, because it felt like it was so much that we had to do, that we did to create this book. I like, I fared, actually. I thought the book was going to be huge, because it was so much. So there recipes in the book.

a mixture, like a handful of cocktail recipes. Thank you for making sure our cocktail friends that's listening also notice some love for them there. And the rest that are the food recipes. And I think that it was a big part of really who maybe traditionally already done the work, like whether it's someone who.

has lived in really their mission is to highlight that particular region. But a lot of people, a lot of the people are actually in my personal community and they already are chefs that are well known for those type of cuisines. So that was very easy when it came to I would say the food part. And they are coming from out of.

I think very few of them are like new recipes that's never been published. Most of them are published recipes that comes from other books. that you, hopefully everything I do, I do love to be able to, how do I bring somebody with me along in my projects too. So this is just another way of being able to kind of tighten that community even more and reinforce each other and lift other people up. And so being able to shout out there are different books that were coming out or has come out was a pleasure to have them involved.

and ask for their permission obviously to incorporate in the book.

Laurie Forster (39:10)
That's

awesome. speaking of the book, Wine Pairing for the People, Give me the date again of the release

Cha McCoy (39:16)
Tuesday, November 4th.

Laurie Forster (39:18)
Tuesday, November 4th. And what's the best way for people to get the book or are there ways they can get it signed by you as well?

Cha McCoy (39:24)
Yes, so they can go to my website, chaamcoe, C-H-A-M-C-C-O-Y dot com. There is a tab for books there. And you can see the listed locations that I'm physically going to and actually signing copies as well for all the independent stores, particularly looking to support black owned, brown owned.

queer owned and women owned bookshops in different cities and so you can always order from them and they will have a selection of books that are signed by me there as well as going to bookshop or clearly Barnes and O'brens and Amazon as well so anywhere books are sold for the larger if you're listening and you're in a different country etc a lot of the different Amazons in other countries are also carrying the book too.

Laurie Forster (40:15)
Well, I know I have done a lot of pairing and probably eating and dining experience with European food and wines, but I love that this is going to give me a little stretch beyond maybe some of the things I normally eat. And I know my listeners are going to be really excited about checking it out. So Cha, thank you so much for coming on The Sipping Point.

Cha McCoy (40:36)
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Laurie Forster (40:37)
I hope you liked learning a little bit more about Chah McCoy's journey to wine and her new book, Wine Pairings for the People. I will post links on my show webpage, but you can find it anywhere you buy your books. It's really a great way to just keep dinners interesting, new pairings, new cuisines. I highly recommend you pick that up. All right, a few reminders. Don't forget to go to thewinecoachclub.com.

check out my bubbly pack and make sure to use that code FORESTERCOACH to get your free shipping. And if you want to join me for the virtual tasting that walks you through the three bubblies I'm featuring in the club this month, then you want to go to thewinecoach.com, click on events and all the information is there, including information on my Tuscany wine tour next October, 2026. I do have some spaces still available and I would love

for you to tour Tuscany with me by glass and more. All right, guys, until next week, cheers.