Is Wine Art or Science? A Master Sommelier & Winemaker Debate Pinot Noir, Chardonnay & Wine Myths

Check out all the great events Laurie has on the calendar in 2026 on her website at TheWineCoach.com/events including her comedic wine tasting Something to Wine About at The Room at Cedar Grove in Lewes, DE on July 10th at 6PM.

Is great wine created through science, artistry… or a little bit of both? On this episode of The Sipping Point, Laurie Forster sits down with two experts from Hartford Family Winery — veteran winemaker Jeff Stewart and Master Sommelier Nick Hetzel — for a lively conversation about what really makes a wine memorable.

Jeff shares how a life-changing glass of Burgundy inspired his 40+ year winemaking career, while Nick reveals how working with top chefs and restaurants led him to pursue the prestigious Master Sommelier diploma. Together, they break down why Sonoma’s Russian River Valley is one of the world’s top regions for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay and explain how vineyard, climate, and winemaking choices shape what ends up in your glass.

Laurie and her guests taste two standout wines from Hartford Family Winery — the Fog Dance Vineyard Chardonnay and Jennifer’s Vineyard Pinot Noir — while diving into restaurant wine tips, food pairing myths, vineyard farming practices, and why Chardonnay is officially having its comeback era.

Whether you’re a casual wine drinker or serious enthusiast, this episode will help you order, pair, and enjoy wine with more confidence (and less intimidation).

Wines Tasted

Hartford Family Fog Dance Chardonnay

Hartford Family Jennifer's Vineyard Pinot Noir

Transcript

Laurie Forster (00:29)
This week on The Sipping Point, we're going to explore whether wine is an art or a science. We're heading to Sonoma to talk to a couple of folks from the Hartford family winery. But just a reminder, if you want to go to my wine comedy show on July 10th in Lewis, Delaware, go to thewinecoach.com slash events and you'll get all the information about this amazing evening. We're going to have some laughs, taste some wine.

and end with a pizza party. It's going to be an amazing evening at the Room at Cedar Grove in Lewis, Delaware. Just go to thewinecoach.com. All the details and ticket links are there. And I officially only have one room left in my Treasures of Tuscany wine tour, October 12th to the 17th. And if you think that room has your name on it, you can also go to my website and get the information or email me for the brochure

and we can chat about you coming with me to

Today on The Sipping Point, I'm joined by two powerhouse voices from Hartford Family Winery, Jeff Stewart, Director of Winemaking and General Manager, and Nick Hetzel, Master Sommelier and Director of Sales and Education. Jeff brings more than 40 years of winemaking experience with deep roots in Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, and old vine Zinfandel from Sonoma's Russian River Valley. His past started with science, agriculture, and a summer in France that changed everything.

Nick brings the hospitality side of the glass from working with James Beard award-winning chefs to leading award-winning wine programs in Las Vegas, Napa Valley, and even earning the prestigious Master Sommelier diploma. Together, they offer a rare look at wine from both sides, how it's made, how it's served, And how we can all enjoy it a lot more.

Laurie Forster (02:19)
Jeff and Nick, welcome to The Sipping Point.

Nick Hetzel MS (02:21)
Thank you, Lori. Excited.

Jeff Stewart (02:21)
Thanks for having us today. ⁓ here

Laurie Forster (02:24)
Hey, you know, usually I have one guest today. I have two. So this I know this is going to be a great show. And one of the things I love about having both of you here and I let everyone know about your amazing backgrounds is that Jeff, you came to wine through a focus in science and Nick, you came to wine through more of a focus of service and the restaurant business. And so I love that you have these two amazing perspectives. So I wanted to start

with your background and how you came to wine and maybe what that aha moment was for you that you said, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. And so Jeff, for you, what was it that really drew you to wine as a career?

Jeff Stewart (03:04)
Well, I have to say I was very, very lucky to stumble into it. I ended up enrolling at UC Davis after a chemistry teacher in high school sort of prompted me with the idea you could get a degree in making wine. I had no idea that was a thing. So stumbled into it, got enrolled in the program, started learning more about wine.

started getting more exposed to wine in school, worked a bit at wineries while I was still in school, and just sort of jumped off the deep end into it. I had no idea what I was getting into. If you asked me back then where I would be today, I would, there's no way I could imagine the things I've been able to do and see. And, you know, many, many wines over that, those early years that prompted

my continued interest. If there's one A-ha wine, don't want to be... I don't know, a lot of people will look at this and say, yeah, right, whatever. But there was one red Burgundy that just changed my direction. I worked in Napa initially, so making a lot of Cabernet Merlot, a little bit of Chardonnay, but I drank a bottle of 1978 DRC Romanee Conti Vineyard.

Nick Hetzel MS (04:19)
Thank

Jeff Stewart (04:20)
in 1988 that made me move to Sonoma County and definitely changed my career path. Now, those who know great Burgundy know that's a pretty special wine and I've never tasted it again. I'm hoping Nick will buy me a bottle someday for my birthday,

Laurie Forster (04:35)
I know of that special wine, I myself have not tasted it either. So give me an invite if you do get together for one. I will meet you out there. All right, Nick, you came at it from a different perspective. Tell me what was your experience.

Nick Hetzel MS (04:49)
Yeah. So I mean, I was always going to be a banker and then started working in a restaurant in high school, really good restaurant. Anyway, it was a dishwasher, you know, just some punk kid. And one night like somebody called in sick, like, you're going to be a Garde Mange And so I go back and we just got clobbered. We killed it. Bartender comes to the kitchen with a tray full of like Irish carbons or something like this. I'm like, restaurant business is pretty cool. So I decided to

Jeff Stewart (05:11)
you

Nick Hetzel MS (05:14)
for a pursuit career path down that road, more in the back of the house, ended up at University of Nevada, Las Vegas, where I still reside. and there were a lot of cool opportunities there. And I sort of transitioned to the front of the house. and then kind of fell in love with wine. Like my, took a wine class in college taught by Steven Geddes, master sommelier. He was really dynamic. and there was a lot going on in this that's in the city back in kind of the late nineties.

Jeff Stewart (05:18)
Right.

Nick Hetzel MS (05:37)
And so there was a lot of cool wine opportunities. I got to taste a lot of great things. think the first thing I ever tasted where I was like, wow, that blew my mind was 1970 Dow Port, I want to say. Not quite as elite as 78 Romanee Conti. Thankfully over the years, as a sommelier working in Las Vegas and the Napa Valley, got to taste some things like that for sure. And now they're kind of untouchable.

Jeff Stewart (05:45)
Thank

you

Nick Hetzel MS (06:04)
That was sort of my path in the short version.

Jeff Stewart (06:06)
you

Laurie Forster (06:07)
Love

that. And at Hartford Family Winery, you're known for your Pinot Noirs and Chardonnays and the whole idea of cool climate, winemaking, and the Russian River Valley being a place that that's so special. I know you have many different origins, but specifically kind of focusing on that. If people don't understand why the Russian River Valley is so special, I'll start with you, Jeff. What is it that you think

is so special about making wines in that area.

Jeff Stewart (06:37)
Well, it's a very unique place. Sonoma County is extremely diverse when it comes to topography, to climates. If you don't like the weather where you are, drive 10 minutes and you'll be in another.

kind of place. So we're very lucky in Sonoma to be able to grow almost every grape variety that we can get our hands on. It's just depending on where you are. So in the Russian river, we are very much influenced by the Pacific Ocean. So like where I'm sitting today at the winery here, we're about 14 miles from the ocean. So that's fairly close, but most importantly,

We have some gaps in the coastal ridges, which those ridges go up to about 1,500, 2,000 feet. So they sort of block the fog in some sense that's coming off that ocean. And the ocean's cold out here, 55, 58 degrees. But there's some beautiful little gaps in that coastal range that allows cold air to come in. So the Russian River is one of the first places where that cold air rushes in. Every afternoon, evening, we see

cooler air, fog, and it completely changes the growing condition. If you go 15 miles north of us, you're in an area where you grow Cabernet and really wouldn't think about Pinot Noir. You can grow Chardonnay in the higher elevations there and in the lower elevations. But really when it comes to cool climate varieties, you really want to be here in the Russian River Valley because maritime influence. Very simple.

Laurie Forster (08:03)
And Nick, what are your thoughts?

Nick Hetzel MS (08:05)
I mean, for me, was one of my first places I ever fell in love with. coincidentally, my first winery I ever went to was Hartford court. I want to say it was like 2002. So I was a, you know, young broke some way. And there was a woman that worked in like our restaurant catering sales department. Her husband was a fledgling fresh professional golfer, like playing mini tours. So we got a job working for an airline to mitigate his flight costs.

Jeff Stewart (08:10)
Bye

Nick Hetzel MS (08:29)
She's like, oh yeah, here, I have a guest pass or whatever. So I flew to San Francisco, I was like 23-ish, rented a car somehow and made it up to Russian River Valley. was pouring down rain and somehow I found Hartford Court. It's not something you just like accidentally drive by. It's not like driving up highway 29 in Napa and like, oh, there's that, there's that, there's that. It's like literally in a forest, but I found it when everybody was cool

Jeff Stewart (08:36)
you

Nick Hetzel MS (08:54)
And for me, was, I think where I really fell in love with the Russian River Valley, not just the wines, but a couple of years later, I got invited to go to what's called the Russian Valley Pinot Forum, which is like a three-day immersion.

which Hartford Court's involved with now, where it's like 60 different sommelays and whatnot from around the country. And the thing I really fell in love with was the community. I lived in Napa for a couple of years and that has its own community. I feel like with the Russian River Valley, it's very collegial, it's very chill. Again, like hippies in a forest, it just felt my vibe. And yeah, the wines are, beautiful, they're nuanced. And it's cool working for Hartford and making.

Laurie Forster (09:26)
Yeah.

Jeff Stewart (09:29)
you

Nick Hetzel MS (09:32)
48 different wines or whatever Jeff makes. And like there is terroir. There is differences between place and I think that's really interesting as well.

Jeff Stewart (09:40)
you

Laurie Forster (09:42)
Well, you did send me the fog dance vineyard Chardonnay that I have here Green Valley Russian River Valley and We're gonna taste that here in a second, but I have a question Nick just to follow up You know for a while Chardonnay was everything and then it's anything but Chardonnay ABC for a while. No, everyone's writing off Chardonnay Now you see people coming back to Chardonnay.

Nick Hetzel MS (09:46)
Yes.

Laurie Forster (10:08)
what do you think is causing that and why people are getting so excited about Chardonnay again?

Nick Hetzel MS (10:12)
that's the most amazing question. Thank you. So, I this is, know, I, I host a lot of, ⁓ consumer facing events and, my first question is always like, who hates Chardonnay? And you're always getting hands thrown up there. And then by the end of it, they're like, well, this is really good. You know, and I think I have kind of a global version of this. When I went to the Yarra Valley about 10 years ago and had my mind blown.

Jeff Stewart (10:24)
Thank

Nick Hetzel MS (10:35)
I'm like, wait a second. I was expecting golden, rich, flabby. No, everything was like, like drinking Rouleur all day. and so I think a lot of it is just like, partially the consumer is pushed back. You know, the consumer doesn't necessarily want that. What was fashionable in the eighties and nineties, early two thousands. they want a little bit more nuance and balance. And I think also on the flip side of that, what

Jeff Stewart (10:35)
you

Nick Hetzel MS (10:58)
the winemakers really across the globe, not just the Russian river valley have done to kind of reign in the style of bit, but also be able to express place. I think that's helped drive it a bit, you know, and you know, hopefully I'm not the only one screaming from the mountain tops at like, Hey, that fog dance has a lot of nuance and a lot of balance. you can achieve that still through classic,

Jeff Stewart (11:02)
you

Laurie Forster (11:14)
He he.

So Jeff, tell us a little bit about the Fog Dance Vineyard Chardonnay and what you did here to give us this. I mean, it's wonderful. I took a little preview sip there, you know, with lots of fruit, but also minerality there. And yes, it has a creaminess, but like Nick said, it's not that, you know, your mother's Chardonnay, if you will.

So tell us what you do and what is a style that you really go for on this wine.

Jeff Stewart (11:46)
So yeah, have number one you have a name Fog Dance. Why do we call it Fog Dance? Literally back when we were naming this wine there was an old satellite loop that was on the Green Valley wine growers website satellite view of the fog coming in and coming out coming in coming out every day and it literally danced around the little

ridges and mountain tops on the sides of the Green Valley proper. So that Fog Dance name describes the place in a way. But what this vineyard is all about, we planted this back in the mid late 90s and it's right in the heart of Green Valley, which is, if there were a poster child for a Green Valley vineyard, think Fog Dance would be exactly that. It's soil, which is

called Goldridge soil, it's old decomposed sandstone, which is old ocean bottom, when we were all underwater here under the ocean millions of years ago. Volcanic ash that fell in. All this was uplifted, so we have very low water holding capacity in these soils, meaning the vines aren't big and vigorous. You don't want to grow tomatoes here. You can't grow corn. But they kind of...

mitigate the growth of the vine into a balanced situation. The cold that comes in

just kind of sets everything down at night. We get warmth during the day that develops fruit. So in the end, end up with this beautiful, I think of this wine as like exotic fruits. It's almost like green mangoes and it's not just, you know, citrus and green apples and those things that we talk about with Chardonnay a lot. There's a lot of subtlety and nuance and the longer you swirl the glass, the longer you sit with this wine, the more it changes, the more that comes out, the more layers

Laurie Forster (13:15)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Stewart (13:32)
come out. I think for Fog Dance, the Chardonnay for me is something that just develops. Very aromatic, very textural, but very racy. It has high acid. When I say racy, don't mean lean and hard.

It really just has this bracing acid that kind of washes your palate after you've experienced a little bit of richness, a little bit of sort of the textural piece that we get. And from a winemaking standpoint, honestly, our approach on everything is to get out of the way. We make 13 different Chardonnays.

All these different vineyard sites have a different personality. And if I were to come in with a heavy hand, heavy thumb and try and say, we're going to do this, this is our style as a winery. I could start hiding a lot of the nuance and a lot of the subtlety that comes out of all these vineyards. So our team here is very much focused on letting the vineyard show through. And I know everyone says that. We do it.

I mean, it's a very hands-off style of winemaking here. I think of us more as babysitters. mean, when I started in the business, it was more like, I'm a winemaker. I need to do things.

Laurie Forster (14:38)
You

Jeff Stewart (14:43)
Let me add some tannin. Let me find a better enzyme. Let me do this. Let me buy better barrels. Let me use more oak. Let me do this. I've got to put a fingerprint on it. I have to justify my existence to the owners that pay my salary. I'm doing something for you. And then you slowly realize, wait a minute. You don't need to do that. If you have a great vineyard, get out of the way. So we're babysitters. We're nurturing these wines along.

Laurie Forster (15:09)
Gotcha.

given the style of this, Nick, because you spent so many years as a sommelier in restaurants, what do you think is the best way for somebody to make sure when they're ordering a Chardonnay at a restaurant that they end up with something that's this style?

Because Chardonnay does have so many expressions. There's un-oaked Chardonnay, there's super-oaked Chardonnay, and then there's this style. So what is the best way, if somebody's at a restaurant with one of these ridiculously long wine lists, to have that sommelier really help them get to a style like this?

Nick Hetzel MS (15:46)
I think for me, always appreciated people speaking in textures, right? Because I always had guests, I want dry, I want sweet, I don't want sweet. And that's just the most confusing thing ever. Because the general consumer, in my opinion, I don't think really understands that, especially if they're in a certain age group. Because dry in the 80s meant high quality, right? With all the stuff that was being made from the Central Valley labeled Chablis, whatever.

Laurie Forster (16:07)
Mmm.

Nick Hetzel MS (16:11)
So for me, I love it when people describe things in textures. And, to me, you mentioned it earlier, creaminess, right? I want creaminess, but I want brightness, right? Creaminess with balance, I think is a great way. You know, when I do staff trainings, I was like, OK, let's try to break this down table side into as few words as possible to paint a picture. You know, we make a wine from a vineyard right by the coast that literally it's a it's a

Jeff Stewart (16:20)
you

you

Nick Hetzel MS (16:37)
Margarita, it smells like margarita when it's fermenting, right? Lemon, lime, sea salt. Okay, people can relate to that. Okay, cool. I kind of know what to expect versus like talking about specific fruits and all this sort of thing. My comments on this wine is maybe my favorite wine we make. And I love Jeff said green mango. Like this wine smells like Thai food to me. It's like green papaya, know, kaffir, you know, lime zest, all of these sorts of fun.

Jeff Stewart (16:39)
you

Nick Hetzel MS (17:04)
high toned aromatic things, but then also creamy with lift. Yeah, or brightness however you want to

Laurie Forster (17:08)
Mm-hmm.

am super passionate about food and wine pairing because to me, wine is part of the recipe of my meal. And it's sort of that last ingredient that really makes it special. But we talk a lot about fancy pairings and things like that. But, know, Jeff, if it's just a random Wednesday night for you, what might I find you sipping?

this Chardonnay with what's just a really fun, everyday kind of food that you think is great with this Chardonnay.

Jeff Stewart (17:37)
Well, I will drink this Chardonnay with just about anything, but I mean, it's funny because I think a lot of people really still stick by the, you know, white with fish or maybe, maybe pork and, you know, anything red, beef, lamb has to be, you know, paired with a big Cabernet or a dark red wine. I'll go any direction with this. mean,

This honestly would like a really simple tuna melt or a grilled cheese sandwich is amazing. But you can also, I mean, I'll drink this with a filet. I'll drink this with, certainly with pork, any pork preparation. You know, there's, we have something in my household when my kids were young that was called special meat. And basically that was either chicken,

Laurie Forster (18:07)
I love that.

Jeff Stewart (18:25)
or Ville Piccata with way more lemon than most people would ever want because my whole family loves citrus. So literally when my kids were tiny, was, my son was like, special meat, special meat. So like that, a high acid, which with this wine, you think, okay, you don't want to.

Laurie Forster (18:37)
Yeah.

Jeff Stewart (18:43)
There's the argument of pairing food and wine where you want like flavors, you want high acid with high acid, or you want richness with richness. I like contrasting flavors as well. I think you can play both. you know, you can do this, like, you know, just picture a simple little Tuesday dinner. Maybe you just get a little filet and, you know, maybe you happen to have a little crab leftover, a little Dungeness that you picked the night

Laurie Forster (18:55)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Hetzel MS (19:07)
If you live

Jeff Stewart (19:10)
got a little left in a pile so you do your little basic you know fillet throw a crab meat on top you know melt some butter you don't need you don't need to clarify just pour all the fat everything on there and just eat it with this I mean and chardonnay and red meat what what the hell why not

Laurie Forster (19:17)
I'm coming to dinner, Jeff. I'm coming to dinner.

I love that. Well, you know.

Nick, what kind of just fun everyday food would you I find you having with the fog dance?

Nick Hetzel MS (19:34)
Everyday food. I don't know. you know, I'm kind of with Jeff, like simplicity is great. I in preparation for this last evening, I just seen this episode of Gordon Ramsay where he did his gnocchi, ricotta gnocchi recipe. I'd never made a handmade gnocchi and I made it last night with asparagus. It was, and we drank this, not all of it. ⁓ I had to.

Laurie Forster (19:57)
Right.

Nick Hetzel MS (19:57)
So I'm like, why wait for the last couple of steps? Uh, but anyway, yeah, that worked great. mean, Jeff's on it and I'll just reiterate him with, with the meat thing and Chardonnay, you know, especially textured Chardonnay, like think of it like a condiment. What do you put on a steak? Often it's bernaise Your Chardonnay is your bernaise Think of that wine as your condiment, right? And you can do that with any type of cuisine as well. So yeah.

Laurie Forster (20:15)
Mm.

Well, we ⁓ have another wine here, Jennifer's Pinot Noir But tell me a little bit about Jeff. I know you've been making wine for, is it over 40 years now?

Jeff Stewart (20:33)
Yeah, rub it in, thanks. 40th harvest last year. Look at the gray. my god.

Laurie Forster (20:35)
No, I find that impressive. We like experience. like experience.

Nick Hetzel MS (20:35)
you

Laurie Forster (20:40)
Is there anything that, what is the biggest thing you've seen change over that time in making wine, making Pinot Noir specifically, you know, through that experience that's maybe different today than what you saw back in the beginning?

Jeff Stewart (20:56)
Well, I think probably more than winemaking, it's what we do in the vineyard. I think the vineyard side has opened up so many doors to make such better wines today than we did 40 years ago. To be really honest, you know, back when I started, you had the vineyard manager and they did what they did in the vineyard. And in many cases, they decided when you'd pick and bring you the grapes when you were

ready or not. You know, it's a bit of a stretch, but it was a very different world. We were farming in a very kind of classical old school California way. We have evolved a lot and today it's, we don't talk about winemaking and vineyards, we talk about wine growing. The vineyard, the main purpose of the vineyard other than to

look beautiful and maybe create a fire break here and there in Sonoma County. But honestly, the vineyards are there to make wine. And if we're not trying to maximize quality by doing all the right things in the vineyard, we're gonna miss out. And we know so much more today. When you look at the California industry, obviously we had an incredible number of acres planted, or maybe not obviously to a lot of people, but in the 1800s.

We had almost as much acreage planted as we do today, which is just amazing to think about. Then we cycled through all these different crops as Sonoma County and any agricultural area often does. So really it was the 60s, 70s when we saw the rebirth. And basically we were starting from scratch there in many ways. Burgundy's been making Pinot Noir a long time.

we've been doing it. you really look at it, you know, you can, you can say it's 60 years of real hard work. so the learning curve, you didn't have, you know, none of these early growers, most of them at least didn't have their grandfather's knowledge or their great grandfather's knowledge that was passed down. So we've gone from trying to figure it out to a very fast track, high speed.

evolution of getting better planting the right plant material in the right places, even the right variety we were missing in the 60s and 70s in many cases. And then just how we approach farming. mean, everybody talks about sustainability, organics, biodynamics, all these touchy feely kind of farming techniques. And it's important. Whichever

church you go to. If you're a biodynamic sky, great. If you're organic, great. If you're this, if you're that, as long as you're thinking. I think one of the greatest quotes I've ever heard is the best fertilizer is the farmer's footsteps in a vineyard. And it's being in touch with what you're doing and getting away from things like Roundup that 40, 60 years ago were just

used rampantly and other chemical things that just don't have a place in a vineyard, honestly. it's really what we do in the vineyard today. Certainly I can buy fancier tanks today. I think everything, you know, there's so much more technology. We know so much more about, you know, what's going on in the wine. Classic example of that. was in, I was in Sancerre last summer on this wonderful trip.

through many wine regions, but we're out in a vineyard with a vineyard owner there who, you know, farms about eight hectare of Sauvignon Blanc on a 30 degree slope in Sancerre. And he doesn't really speak English. My French is really bad. Thankfully, my buddy is there who speaks fluently. So we're going back and forth, you know, he doesn't own a tractor to farm that eight and a half hectare. We get back in the winery, we're tasting through all these wines.

Laurie Forster (24:34)
Wow.

Jeff Stewart (24:37)
And you know, we, the five, four winemakers that were like, so do you put these wines through Malolactic He's like, I don't know. I don't do analysis. And these are wines that are just sublime. You know, we had a night. What was it? It was a 1992 Sauvignon Blanc that he had made. A couple of months ago, that was just.

Insane. So technology isn't always the answer, but we have a lot of tools today.

Laurie Forster (25:04)
Love that.

We do, we do. Well, great. So I think, Nick, one of the frustrating parts for wine drinkers out there is that there's no easy way to look at a bottle and know, like Jeff said, that this is not using Roundup and this is using biodynamics and organic practices and cover crops and all these great things that people are, the great wineries like yours are doing now.

Jeff Stewart (25:21)
Thank you. ⁓

Laurie Forster (25:31)
How can a wine drinker, if they're going into a restaurant or a wine shop, what's your advice to sort of weed your way through it? Because looking for USDA organic is not really the answer because that doesn't really look at all the things that sustainability or organics really have to offer.

Nick Hetzel MS (25:52)
Another amazing question, thank you. Yeah, so I mean, even, gosh, 15 years ago, kind of as this.

started to become more evidence. People were being more conscientious about what they're putting in their bodies. You always get those questions and it's like, well, I don't really know. This is as a songlier, you know, I'm like, you know, we only work with good producers, things of that nature. There's a lot more material and information out there. You know, this is a recommendation I have for everyone is like,

Yes, it's very easy to go into these like big box stores and buy wine. Sure. Great. And you might get $3 off versus your neighborhood vendor. And especially, know, Laurie, where you live, there's a ton and even Jeff, where he lives, a ton of great artisanal retailers and certainly amazing restaurants as well.

spend a little more and get to know the people there, right? Like, because they will have this information in their hands. And obviously there's an entire like thing of natural wine bars, wine shops that focus just on those wines. And sometimes, you know, maybe our wines don't qualify, even though they kind of do. That's a whole nother, we could do a whole other podcast on that, but we won't. ⁓ But just get to know the people, right?

Jeff Stewart (26:52)
you

you

Laurie Forster (27:05)
We could.

Nick Hetzel MS (27:09)
Again, big box stores are great. I go to them to buy tequila and 1.75s of Beefeater or whatever it may be. I don't necessarily go there to buy my wine per se. You know what I mean? Like it's just a more kind of artisanal product and getting to know people, great retailers. You worked at a great one in Manhattan, getting to know those people and asking the right questions. Hey, you know what? I don't love

Jeff Stewart (27:10)
you

you

Laurie Forster (27:23)
Yes.

Jeff Stewart (27:28)
and

Nick Hetzel MS (27:36)
quote unquote natural wine, I want something that's made naturally. Okay, cool. Great. Here's some things, you know, and they'll get to know you. And I think that's, as, as, you know, our world in this country becomes more just transactional and do everything online, which is great. I think this, this model still does exist for wine, which is cool. And it's a lot of passionate people out there that are, you know,

Jeff Stewart (27:39)
you

Laurie Forster (27:39)
Perfect,

yeah.

Jeff Stewart (27:45)
you

you

you

Nick Hetzel MS (28:03)
trying to have a business and let them help you and you can help them too. So that would be my suggestion.

Jeff Stewart (28:03)
you

Laurie Forster (28:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Finding

a good independent wine retailer that really is thoughtful about what they bring in that knows every bottle that's on their shelf. ⁓ one of my local retailers has ⁓ a green tag with the description of the wine, if it's organic or bio or any of those.

Jeff Stewart (28:21)
.

Laurie Forster (28:27)
And some people... Yeah.

Jeff Stewart (28:27)
I was going to chime in really quickly on that where.

When you look, it's a slippery slope. It's really hard to, for a Somme, for someone on the floor of a wine shop, to know everything about every wine, even with all the knowledge that's available. You know, if you look at our wines, there's never anywhere on there that says organically grown grapes or anything, you know, other than there's a little sustainability stamp that's pretty innocuous on the back label.

Because there's so many differences. Organic grape growing has a totally different set of rules than organic wine making. And we farm essentially everything organically, but we don't certify every vineyard. Because a vineyard like Seascape out on the coast, we may, in one vintage, not be able to actually get a crop unless we use something that's not registered as organic, but it's a very soft, friendly material.

So the label won't even always tell you this and it's, it's not that we're trying to hide anything or, you know, not, not tell the full story, but it's, it's a really difficult line when people don't understand the differences and it's so complicated. It's really, really difficult. So.

Laurie Forster (29:37)
it is.

Jeff Stewart (29:40)
Yeah, you do have to trust in some cases, but do a little homework, go to some websites, read about the wineries, you know, you'll find out some interesting things.

Laurie Forster (29:49)
Perfect. And speaking of the wineries and the vineyards, the Jennifer Vineyard, what would you say, Jeff, is the distinctive characteristics of this vineyard that make it so perfect? This Pinot is so delicious and bright and full of fruit, so balanced. What is it about Jennifer's Vineyard? A nod, of course, to one of your founders there that makes this wine so special.

Jeff Stewart (30:15)
So earlier I described little gaps in the coastal ridges where cold air comes in. This vineyard sits directly in one of those gaps where the cold air rushes in every afternoon. So this is the coldest spot in my mind in the Russian River Valley. It's the most southern tip of the Russian River south of a little town called Sebastopol. And because of that kind of extreme weather there, you end up making a wine that's

Some would say extreme. I love this one. This was a vineyard we planted back in 02, began development down there. In most cases, vineyards three to four years into their life will see a crop coming off that's producing.

grapes you can make wine from that's pretty good and maybe not at the level of 20 years but certainly you know you have viable fruit. This vineyard year seven, year eight, year nine, we were just starting to see that three-year equivalent in the site because it's just so cold, so windy, so stressed. This is vineyard that kind of is a hallmark of one of our

One of our calling cards here is high risk, reward. So we have vineyards where we literally take the risk of not being able to make a wine from that vineyard in a vintage because it's too cold, it's too windy, it's too this, it's too that. This fits a little bit into that. The extremes there create incredibly flavorful wines. You mentioned the fruit intensity. It's this beautiful, for me, beautiful

bright red fruits. ⁓ There's no baked plums or any of that over the top fruit here, but it's savory as well. There's dried herbs and a savory, earthy kind of side to this wine that's super complex, great acid in the mouth. I love this one. It's one of my favorite pinos we make.

Laurie Forster (31:47)
Mm-hmm

Jeff Stewart (32:07)
And again, we make 17 different pinots. So there's a lot of options out there. But if you put this wine next to, the Fog Dance Pinot Noir, which we produce from the Fog Dance Vineyard, they're worlds apart. And they're only about 7 and 1/2 miles apart from each other. So that kind of shows what you can get in the Russian River Valley, depending on which ridge, which little pocket, which little neighborhood you're in.

Laurie Forster (32:32)
Mmm.

Jeff Stewart (32:32)
incredibly

balanced, complex wine.

Laurie Forster (32:35)
Absolutely. Nick, what would be your, since you're such a chef over there and love to cook, I love that you could just whip up some homemade gnocchi on a Monday night. But what would you want to put with this wine? Ideally, you know, maybe it's a comfort food, maybe it's something that you love, your favorite dish. What would it be for you?

Nick Hetzel MS (32:55)
So I mean, for the Chardonnay, we could have said roast chicken, but for me, I love Pinot with roast chicken. Literally just throw chicken in the oven. It's kind of like gnocchi. It's three or four ingredients, you know. I think we get scared by it, but we shouldn't be. Yeah, roast chicken, saute some mushrooms. You know, in the pan drippings. Call it a day. Yeah, that to me is.

Laurie Forster (33:13)
Yum.

Nick Hetzel MS (33:19)
You know, simplicity, I think goes a long way with especially with wines like this, where you can really let the nuance come out. But you could, you could do like, whatever St. Louis ribs, as long as you don't have like super sweet barbecue sauce. Totally great. Many, many, many, many things. If you live by a coast, you know, maybe some beautiful in season, ⁓ wild salmon would be great.

Jeff Stewart (33:40)
Thank

Nick Hetzel MS (33:43)
You know, again,

like Jeff noted with this wine, this shows the savory side of the Russian River Valley. There are more opulent sides of the Russian River Valley. This shows the savory, high-tone version, which just opens up a world of possibilities. know, duck, obviously, but who's cooking duck at home? Not many people.

Jeff Stewart (33:55)
Thank

Thank

Laurie Forster (34:00)
Right.

I have a question for you. I'd love to ask this and I'll start with you, Jeff. What is one wine myth that's out there that you would like to dispel? Because there's so much misinformation, I feel like, out there when I do wine classes or wine dinners, that people believe certain things that just really aren't true, maybe about California wine or just wine in general. Jeff, anything you want to set the record straight here?

Jeff Stewart (34:17)
Hmm.

Well, I touched on one. You can drink white wine with red meat. That's the most obvious one in the world to me. One of the greatest things in the world is champagne and a beautiful piece of marbled beef of some sort. But I think, I don't know, guess it's really...

Price doesn't always drive quality. So I think there's a lot of very overpriced wines for what you get. And there are a lot of amazing bargains out there. And again, those are hard to find. I mean, we're very lucky living here in the middle of things. I have in my back pocket a number of friends that make great wines that are just stupidly.

affordable for what they are. And that's such a treat. That's hard for someone who lives in, you know, Iowa or wherever and doesn't have that exposure. Yeah, you, Nick. ⁓ So I think it comes back again to that idea of trusting your local wine guy to kind of maybe find some bargains for you. And I'm not saying expensive wines aren't worth it, because in many cases, you I'm

Nick Hetzel MS (35:21)
Yeah, cycle of liquors baby.

Laurie Forster (35:21)
Yeah

Jeff Stewart (35:35)
I am the first guy to go spend money my wife probably didn't want me to spend on a bottle of wine when it's worth it. But think about finding cool new things and don't be afraid of new varieties as well. I we make Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Old Vine Zin as the core, but we also make a little bit of Chenin Blanc. We make a little bit of Grenache. We make Syrah.

So things that people don't think about every day can often be really interesting and don't be afraid of trying something new, I guess.

Laurie Forster (36:05)
Great advice, I love that. What about you, Nick? Any myths that you saw at all the tables that you waited on that you want to dispel?

Nick Hetzel MS (36:15)
I'll dovetail a little bit into what Jeff said, but on the opposite side. value doesn't equal price. So for example, Jeff and I were in New Orleans about a year ago, and there's a very famous restaurant there that hadn't really marked up their prices like pre, like after the pandemic.

Jeff Stewart (36:24)
There you go.

Nick Hetzel MS (36:35)
And so something might be expensive, but it might also be like the greatest deal in the world. And don't be afraid, like, cause you'll never get that opportunity again, especially if you love the great wines of the world. You know what I mean? Like the classics, right? and yeah, absolutely. Like unknown producers and other regions from Europe or even America, like other places you can find amazing things, but.

Jeff Stewart (36:46)
you

Laurie Forster (36:48)
Mm-hmm.

Nick Hetzel MS (36:58)
something to be of good value and still be really expensive. And that goes for everything in life, right? we could talk about not all California Chardonnay is butter and milk. I think that's very appropriate for this conversation as well. They aren't. And actually most aren't, yeah.

Jeff Stewart (37:03)
you

you

Laurie Forster (37:12)
Right.

Perfect. Guys, Jeff and Nick, this has been so much fun. I thank you so much for coming on the show. Both of these wines are delicious. I'll post a link to your website so people can check out all the different single vineyard wines that you create. And I just appreciate your time today. And I just want to say thank you and cheers.

Nick Hetzel MS (37:33)
Cheers. Thank you, Laurie. Thank you, Jeff.

Jeff Stewart (37:34)
Cheers. Thank

you,

Laurie Forster (37:35)
Is wine an art? Is wine a science? I don't think we settled that debate, but I will put a link to the Hartford Family Winery website so you can check out their wines and their amazing estate in the Russian River Valley. Again, check out my events at thewinecoach.com and just click on event. All of my upcoming tastings, tours, and events are listed there. You can also sign up for my email list so you get notified first of anything that I have going on.

Of course, if you enjoy this podcast, would love for you to share it with another wine lover. As always, I'm thankful for you tuning in and until next week, cheers.