Body Wisdom Academy

You Are The Medicine: Catalyzing Your Awakening With Dr. Jesse Hanson

• Alyssa Stefanson

Share episode

Transformative healing unfolds through authentic experiences and profound self-discovery. This conversation with Dr. Jesse Hanson demonstrates the power within all of us to awaken our true selves. 

- Introduction to Dr. Jesse Hanson and his background in clinical psychology 
- The significance of somatic healing and its impact on personal trauma 
- Personal stories of awakening and the role of support systems 
- Exploration of plant sacraments and their unique place in healing 
- The balance between traditional therapy and modern practices 
- The immersive healing process encountered at Atman Awaken Retreats 
- The importance of preparation and integration in the healing journey 
- Overcoming common fears and misconceptions about plant medicine 

Remember to explore Dr. Hanson's incredible work and the experiences at Atman Awaken Retreats. 

email: jesse@atman.global

https://www.instagram.com/hansonhealing/

https://www.instagram.com/atmancostarica/



Alyssa's IG: @thealyssastefanson

Join The Body Wisdom Academy

Grab Alyssa's new course Freedom From Toxic Relationships for only $57

Book A Free 1:1 Consultation Call with Alyssa

Speaker 1:

I am so grateful and honored to have had the opportunity to interview Dr Jesse Hansen, clinical director of Otman Awaken Retreats. Jesse has a PhD in clinical psychology, specializing in neuropsychology, with a focus on somatic healing. He brings with him 25 years of bridging modern psychology with ancient wisdom, and I had the honor and privilege of attending one of these awakened experiences in beautiful Costa Rica last summer, an experience I had been searching for for several years, and anyone who knows me or who has been listening to this podcast for a while, you understand that somatic healing has been the thing that has given me my life back, after surviving a horrific four-year violent relationship and a 16-year battle with addiction, starting my life over with absolutely nothing and undergoing a very intense spiritual awakening that left me feeling very disconnected from the world around me. I thought I was broken beyond repair and I was deeply suffering. My healing didn't come from traditional talk therapy or pharmaceutical drugs. It was through working with somatic practitioners and engaging in these transformative experiences in community. It is the reason I am living out my purpose and have been able to step into the life I so desperately desired. I had been searching for an experience like Otman for quite some time and the closest experience I previously had was immersing myself in a four-day somatic breathwork training, which was incredible and one of the highlights of my life. However, it didn't compare to my experience at Otman, and while we do talk about plant sacraments, which were part of the ceremony, one of the best aspects of Otman is that we only engage in one day of plant ceremony. Unlike other traditional psychedelic retreats, the focus is not primarily on plant medicine and, as someone who has been in recovery from addiction for several years, this was important to me.

Speaker 1:

These awaken retreats integrate sophisticated somatic healing, relational healing in small, intimate groups, trauma reprocessing expertise, breathwork, embodiment practices, carefully guided ceremonial experiences, all within the stunning natural environment of Costa Rica. I had reservations about many retreats that offered back-to-back ceremonies without sufficient embodiment work, preparation and integration, and I've witnessed many people who returned from these experiences feeling very disembodied. So when I came across Otman, which actually synchronistically appeared in my life, I took a deep dive into Jesse Hansen's work and his expertise in somatic therapy, along with his clinical background and decades of experience. I felt a full body. Yes, it just felt so safe and it was exactly what I had been searching for. I truly wish more people understood the power of experiences like this when it comes to catalyzing their healing and awakening journeys. I take great pride in the work that I do and I would never suggest anything to anyone if I didn't feel that it was completely safe or worthwhile. Investment Atman exceeded my expectations and I want't feel that it was completely safe or worthwhile investment. Atman exceeded my expectations and I want to clarify that. I am not suggesting anyone partake in plant medicine ceremonies. This is not medical advice. I'm simply sharing my own experience and my own call to use them. So whether you are interested in deepening your healing journey, catalyzing your awakening or dipping your toes into the world of psychedelic therapy or maybe you've been using them for a while you're going to love this conversation with the incredible Dr Jesse Hansen.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back to another episode of the Body Wisdom Academy. I'm your host, alyssa Steffensen, and it is my intention with this podcast to deliver empowering resources, insights and tools to help you heal, awaken and return to your wild, sacred nature and the innate wisdom of your body. Join me as I interview some of the leading experts in the fields of holistic health, somatic healing and trauma recovery. In these episodes, we'll explore innovative and cutting-edge tools and techniques that challenge some of the conventional approaches, all while diving into some of the more controversial yet transformative practices that blend together modern science with ancient spiritual insights. And if you enjoy these episodes, it would mean the world to me if you could take a moment to leave a five-star review to help this podcast grow and reach more people. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Speaker 1:

Now let's get into the episode. Jesse Hansen, it is so great to finally be having this conversation with you. I was just saying to you how I feel like it's been a long time coming. I shared with my listeners in previous episodes a little bit about my Atman experience, but I told them that I would be diving more into it in a future episode, and now I'm finally going to be able to share that with them. But I do want to talk about and I talk about this often in this podcast is I share my experience with my own spiritual awakening process, and I would love for you to dive in a little bit about your own and what is awakening to you. What would be your definition of that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, first of all, thank you, alissa. So awesome to be here, so grateful that we finally get to have this conversation and just appreciate all the the work and the beauty that you're bringing into the world, and so keep doing it and and yeah, and it's, I think, through your both, of our collective awakening that we're even. This is what we're choosing to to do with our time and our energy and our life, and so for me, you know this word, atman is the Sanskrit word that really symbolizes the process of awakening. It's not something we just do or we get it done, we're choosing to be in it.

Speaker 2:

Another cool metaphor in other indigenous traditions is often called the red road, which is more of a native american indigenous language, but it's very similar. It just means like I'm walking the red road or I'm walking the path of ottoman is the same idea, is that I'm choosing to be more conscious and more awake? Is the current word that that I'm using? So it's a great question. What does it really mean to me? It means brain-heart coherence, it means living in a more embodied way and so much, especially of all ancient cultures and the different traditions that they pass down to us that give us some templates or some ideas of like how do we walk the red road? Because the road that most of us are walking and I'm guilty as charged as well, but very digitally addicted culture that we've created, obviously that's a more modern phenomenon. That, for example, that's a. It's a majority disembodying experience to kind of have our mind and body connected into a device, and yet it's still a way that we build connection and that's something else that the ancient way was showing.

Speaker 2:

So I feel like awakening, having brain, heart coherence, meaning walking as a multidimensional being, knowing that I am partly have a mind, but this mind is not all of who I am and I also have a body, because body's not all of who I am, and I also have consciousness, or my ability to, you know, be aware of things both within and beyond my body and my mind.

Speaker 2:

And I feel like that, to me, is what, when I started to feel, when I started to have my own path and work and all this, that's what I started to notice is the more I kept clearing out my old trauma and looking at all the different places. That here's another easy way to say it, alyssa is, you know, stepping into the process of awakening means that I want to become conscious of why I do what I do, down from the food and substances I choose to put into my body, to even like my breathing pattern, my relationship choices, food choices, all these little choices we make. A lot of us just do them, and I know what that's like too, and I still fall into that trap, even though I know all this stuff. But is that to me? That's the awakening is when it's like well, I have the ability to realize why I'm doing what I'm doing and ultimately, being able to influence. I prefer to show up this way and how good it feels in my body when I can hit that alignment.

Speaker 1:

And so do you think that awakening is a choice, or is there usually like a catalyst in our lives that lead us to this path?

Speaker 2:

Both. I mean, it's definitely even when there is a catalyst often a rock bottom or a tough situation and universal slap on the face of sorts it often is a catalyst for people to say well, I'm tired of this pattern, I'm tired of ending up feeling like this, and yet, even then, it's a choice. So I think you're right, that's the majority. And I think there are other scenarios where people, for whatever reason maybe they're inspired by a loved one or some person some person inspires them and, without a major crisis happening, they can choose to start doing the work. And yet I think that you know the the riches are richest when the switch is set to the shadow healing, and you know, in other words, like I think there's probably even more benefit in awakening out of lotuses. Grow out of the swamp, right.

Speaker 1:

And were there any significant teachers on your path? What kind of led you? Where did you look for guidance? How did you?

Speaker 2:

become so self-aware and so conscious, definitely going into the swamp, definitely, you know, having a lot like relating to the challenges of my life in a way that I I did end up in a in my early 20s in a period of substance abuse and just master escape artists in a very functional and pretty way. But it no lying, it was my own way of not knowing how to process my own emotions and, ironically, my first primary teacher and I would say the person that helped me begin my awakening, was a Native American teacher in places of all places, south Central Los Angeles, also known as Compton, which is where, first of all, I was a silly white guy driving in there with my Prius at the time. But, yeah, she took me through much more embodied and ancient wisdom. It wasn't Dr Jesse psychologist stuff, it was like sweat lodges and fasting and learning the power of meditation and prayer and mantra and all these elements, and I give thanks for her. She has recently transitioned.

Speaker 2:

Srinathadevi Mataji thanks for her. She has recently transitioned. Srinathadevi Mataji, chief White Eagle. She was known in many ways but she was like a spiritual mother to me and really opened me up at a pretty young age, like 23. And since then I've had many, many teachers and got more and more as, moving through that wave into the more clinical, becoming Jesse, became much more academic teachers and more traditional teachers. But I realized they were all singing the same song, all guiding me towards the same goal of embodiment and having more faith in my life.

Speaker 1:

They often say, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, and that's definitely been true in my own life, and I think there comes this like pivotal moment in our lives when we actually realize that we are on this path. We start to, you know, wake up more and be more conscious of our own, just our own patterns, our own traumas, like you were mentioning. And then it almost seems I know I experienced this in my own life. I'm not sure if you have as well, but that, just this guidance of like, through synchronicity, just feeling like you are being like, guided, um, through whatever you call it, universe, god, creator, source. Could you share a little bit about that, if that was your experience?

Speaker 2:

yeah, that that's what I meant in the closing of the last comment when I said the word faith is like having faith that if I just be vulnerable, open, be, be courageous to look inside of myself. The faith is that, yeah, the universe, god, spirit, chuck E, cheese, whatever you want to call it is going to bring through that synchronistic moment, and in the quantum realm we would also call that the law of attraction and the way electromagnetic frequencies work. So it's, but also called out the law of attraction and the way electromagnetic frequencies work, so it's. That's what I love about being a 2025 and onwards human is that we finally have the science to keep up with the ancient wisdom. For so long it was like, oh, that stuff's just woo, woo and it's crazy. And it's like, actually, if you apply quantum physics and neuroscience to all this woo woo stuff, you actually realize, wow, it's actually the most advanced science that we know of right now, way beyond traditional third dimensional, more medical or simply physiological science. So it's you know, to me that's how the faith happened. It's like I opened my heart.

Speaker 2:

Be courageous. I often say universe favors courage, and courage is not the same as bravery. Courage is getting the lead with my heart, bravery is like fighting, pushing through a fear, you know, and there's some overlap, for sure, but I feel like when courage happens, then the next blessing just comes in. Even if it's a challenging one, even if it's something that my ego doesn't want to see, I can be like that is the next lesson I needed to learn. So to me that that's what you're describing. The synchronicity is faith, and it doesn't have to be tied to a religious deity. It can be no problem. And yet it's also something I think is even outside the construct of of religion absolutely, and so you also the opportunity to mentor under gaber mate.

Speaker 1:

What was that like?

Speaker 2:

first of all, he would like us to recognize gabor. Gabor yes, gabor, mate, oh man, what a soul. Um, I feel so honored. It's been a beautiful chance just to have him as a mentor and friend and my first therapeutic psychedelic experience was with him in the jungle and it just opened me up so much to, I think, a more conscientious way of being involved in the ceremonies and whether I'm receiving it or guiding it the ceremonies, and whether I'm receiving it or guiding it.

Speaker 2:

And ultimately, you know, it was Gabor who gave me the courage in 2019, when I had had so many clients coming into my private practice office that were telling me the same thing they had gone to do an ayahuasca retreat, either in Costa Rica or Peru usually, and in the moment it seemed amazing.

Speaker 2:

But as they've gotten back home, they're like whoa, what's happened? And I can't regulate and I don't know what to do with all this and I saw too much and all these things. And it was that phenomenon, mixed with my time, which was to, as a licensed professional, to start to speak up and speak out about the potency of ceremonial work, that it would be okay, because, of course, I've been programmed to feel like you can't do that. You shouldn't do that. No, you're over here and this is over there, and it's like no, actually they are all perfectly balanced and they marry each other quite well. And so, you know, I owe him, I owe him, that nod of respect and gratitude that you know he had already paved that path and made it easier for me to step, you know, step in his footsteps, and so I just yeah, I love him very much and grateful for the way that he's impacted my journey, and so was that your introduction to plant medicines working with catch at least five pseudo shamans serving ayahuasca, so it was everywhere.

Speaker 2:

And I did try it once in an overall solid container. Yet it wasn't deeply therapeutically held, it was overall safe and I got something from it, but not much. And then I started to experiment with mushrooms not long after that, but again in more recreational ways. I mean, it was a little more intentional but still not therapeutic. So I'd had a few dips and dices with that energy. But I, you know I even though this is now a huge part of my path, it wasn't something that I grew up doing all the time. It really started in my, you know, mid twenties and started kind of came to a crescendo almost 20 years later now.

Speaker 1:

And maybe you don't have one, but is there a plant medicine that is your favorite to personally work with?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would. I would have to say I think both for you know my own continued expansion and learning, as well as with serving with others, is definitely psilocybin. I just find it's like such a beautiful teacher and the right balance, especially as a psychologist and clinically trained and also indigenously trained and influenced service medicine server. You know, as that comes together, I feel like psilocybin is, you know, the greatest potential of like opening up these new spaces for people and yet also still being able to reach them, still being able to, to guide and connect. That being said, you know every, every person is different and every journey is different, and where some people go in psilocybin is where some people else go, on ayahuasca, and you know it's not not, it's not so locked in, but I I do find, if I had to choose one, you know, the psilocybin is is just really potent for therapeutic and intentional use only one I've actually, um, tried.

Speaker 1:

I've never tried ayahuasca yet, I haven't felt the calling to quite yet, maybe one day, but I'm quite comfortable working with psilocybin at the moment. So, yeah, and I had obviously an incredible experience myself at Oppmann last summer, and so now you are leading retreats at Oppmann. How did this all evolve from like your clinical background to all of a sudden running retreats? Was this your vision all along, or were you kind of pulled and guided there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks, that's cool Curiosity. I, you know, I I had a private practice in a big city and, making you know, overall great money as a, as a therapist, and a wait list and in many ways, like I think you know, could have easily just sort of coasted on that. And yet I knew from my own healing experiences, some of which I've already opened up, some of which were ceremonial, I did also start doing clinically grounded, psychotherapeutic deep dives, which could be like three to seven day intensives without any plant sacraments, but just more focused work. So between those deep dives and all my indigenous ceremony that again didn't actually for many years didn't involve any plants other than you know, like not non psychedelic plants. You know there'll be different sweet, sweet grass and sage, but those, those ceremonies were just as eyeopening as as anything else and it just made me realize that, wow, like the clinical hour is awesome and you can help people out at a weekly rhythm and it's there, it's got its purpose. But I humbly admitted to myself I was like Jess, you know it, like in your own journey, you wouldn't be where you're at if you hadn't have done these deep dives, if you hadn't have chosen to immerse yourself more deeply in this, as opposed to an hour here, an hour there.

Speaker 2:

So that was the intelligence side of me that ultimately, combined with the fact that I kept having so many clients come back saying they were like dysregulated from the way that these ceremonies are being held and, fyi, I don't think it has anything to do with the plants or ayahuasca particularly. It has to do with, just, you know, people not fully understanding how trauma gets reactivated in these things and not having the proper integration. And so that's what it was, alyssa. It was just like I'm gonna give all. I'm crazy.

Speaker 2:

I by left brain standards, I'm crazy because like I'm doing well and I could just cruise. But I was like, no, I'm gonna give all this up and take the leap of faith to come and live in Costa Rica. And I didn't even know when I moved here that what exactly it was going to look like, but I just knew I wanted to create a sacred space where people could come and do the deeper work and really go way beyond what we can ever achieve in one hour, even one-on-one sessions. One-on-one sessions Even when there's a great therapist and a very willing, open, ready client.

Speaker 1:

There's something about the immersion, there's something about the larger small group that brings up you know the next levels of the work Absolutely, and I love that you addressed that. The plant medicine is not the problem, it's, you know, the set, the set and setting the container. And also we're a very disembodied culture and I even experienced it for myself, not with any type of psychedelic, but breath work. My first time doing breath work, I felt really called to do some type of this work, just because I was really struggling at my own at home, isolating myself, recovering from, you know, addiction and a very like domestic violence situation. And so I decided to go to this breathwork ceremony and I had a really intense experience where I felt like I lost control of my body and afterwards, for about two weeks after, I started having like really intense flashbacks and I also started just losing a lot of weight, experiencing severe insomnia. So I did start working with a somatic practitioner. It was really helpful. She really supported me in working through that.

Speaker 1:

So it's so important to even mention these things, like it's not the modality that's the problem, it's not the medicine that is the problem, it's just we're not.

Speaker 1:

We're not preparing ourselves and not educating ourselves enough, and that was my issue. It was like I did not educate myself self going into it and making sure that I had the proper support around me, and now obviously, I approach it very, very differently. So having that experience obviously in OPMEN was just unbelievable, because it is such a such a safe container. Like I felt so safe to do the work, so safe to be vulnerable. I know that's a fear for many people is expressing vulnerability in a group of people like that, but when you're there and you just feel so connected to that the people in your, in your group, that you're with because, like, you're working closely with them for that whole week, like you're always together, and you just have this such as this strong bond, and those fears just go away. They did for me, like the fears that I went in with initially were gone by a few days in. So, yeah, I just you have an incredible team and I just want to mention that and yeah, I'm just so grateful for that experience.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, alyssa. Yeah, such an honor to hold space for you and even us healers. We need to do the work. We need to take the time and space for ourselves too. So respect for that. I also respect your intelligence. This quick story you shared there just the highlight of, regardless of the body symptoms, your body was talking to you and saying something, and a lot of times people are just programmed to say, oh well, I better get to the doctor and I better take more supplements and I better get a new pill or whatever it is. And so I respect the insight and wisdom in you that said like, yeah, maybe I can check all that out to just see what my options are, but really, like, I need to look at my emotions, I need to look at how I'm holding on to certain things from my past. And so thank you for doing that, thanks for being brave and yeah, that's that's really the, the core of you know, everything that I am sharing now with the world through through this project called Atman and through the process of Atman, in myself and in others, the awakening is all things that I have tried, true, tested on myself as the own best guinea pig, and you know, in other words, I'm just simply sharing back what I've learned over the last 25 years on this path and hoping that it helps people as much as it helped me and so far it seems to do that part, because I think there is a lot of helped me and so far it seems to do that part, because I think there is a lot of wisdom in what I was taught and shown and there's also a grace that I'm getting better at, little by little, of how that information is shared and transferred. And this is a perfect chance to highlight, you know, as we go deeper into this, atman Awaken is the name of the retreat that you came to.

Speaker 2:

It's called Awaken, appropriately entitled, and is that? You know, if you look at sort of the global market right now, what's my option out there? I'm a random human X, y and Z that I want to awaken, but I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. I'm going to Google it. Okay, there's, you know this. I'm not going to say any other names, but you can. There's some of the biggest competitors out there in terms of psychedelic services and overall that they are doing they're well intended and they're doing great work. However, the to me.

Speaker 2:

The big critique I have is that there is not enough focus on preparation and integration and or what is there is still very cognitive and and mostly around sort of group sharing, much like a sharing circle, which is great. I'm not against it. I'm just saying that's maybe only half of the equation and the other half is all the stuff we were just talking about the brain, heart, coherence, the embodiment, learning how to reactivate the neural networks that get reprogrammed during ceremony, for example. And just at a very sort of bird's eye view and looking in at a program, what does a program include? Often it's very standardized now in the industry is three to four, sometimes even five decently the option to have pretty heavy doses, if not encouraged to have heavy doses night after night or every other night. And my critique is that here we are.

Speaker 2:

Western culture, more is better, just got to do more, got to get higher, got to get more expanded. And I actually did a research project two or three years ago with a team at Queen's University in Canada, private research that we looked at the ancient wisdom around ceremonial containers and structure and there was nothing we could find that suggested that the ancient wisdom suggested to do so much ayahuasca so quickly in order. I'm not saying they didn't do it, I'm not saying that it maybe happened somewhere, but more what we uncovered and what matched with my own understanding was that these cultures were more embodied already. They're out hunting, gathering and touching the earth and being in their bodies. So maybe doing ayahuasca once a year, it's like they were already in a place to relate to all of that in a much different way than coming out of the North American mindset. The rat race, the left, hyper left, brain activity, money, all these pieces. So we want to escape that. We want to get blasted off and say, oh goodness, that was great.

Speaker 2:

But my critique is that it's often too much for people too fast and even if they have an amazing experience and they say wow at the end, it's often a week, two weeks, a month, two months later when they get home that they're realizing whoa, what either? Wow, that was just crazy and cool and it was over there, and that's like a separate reality, almost like I can't. I don't know how to bring that home to my daily life. It seems like unless I'm going to do ayahuasca every night, I don't know how to get there or, even worse, and what I kept experiencing back in 2019 was people really struggling, really feeling like dysregulated, having body symptoms come up, which, again, is perfect. This is what gets opened up in ceremony, comes up to be healed. But if it's not educated that way and there's no integration, especially somatic integration, then what we've done is sort of ruffled the pot and shaken everything up and brought certain things to the surface and, yes, maybe some of those got cleared or expressed in ceremony, but others didn't, and that's what the person's wrestling with. So last quick point on this is is just to say that's what I've witnessed. Not saying with any judgment, I'm saying it.

Speaker 2:

It with I question the efficacy as a clinician of like okay, what are we doing in opening people so much without really empowering them? And I can tell you as, having run retreats and knowing the business model, it's a lot easier to just move people through group experiences over and over again, whether it's online, virtual, in-person. You pay one to two facilitators to actually take the time and focus it takes to do the proper somatic integration with each guest. It's it's a time and money consuming process and yet my argument is it's worth it. It's we have to find a way to restructure. All the energy goes into so many uh, high heightened ceremonies meaning with lots of ayahuasca or whatever it is versus what we're sharing now at Atman, and what you got to go through was there was one peak experience that had to do with the sacraments and the highly altered states of consciousness, but we did so much work with each person individually, in small groups, and really helping each person understand.

Speaker 2:

To me it's quite simple. People talk about a bad trip. A bad trip just means well, I'm uncovering things that I wasn't ready to see. But if I actually am given proper preparation, tools, techniques, approaches, then I'm going in being like all right, I already know I have a good sense, at least, of what's in here and, like I'm ready to face it, I have some ideas of how to work with that energy, those parts of me when they come up, and that's what we spend a lot of time on, that, and that's what I think is really the single differentiating factor, besides the awesomeness of my team. Thank you so much. But it's really about shifting the priorities and still honoring the ancient wisdom and honoring the ancient ceremonies and yet also honoring modern neuroscience and trauma reprocessing and the understanding that our brain body are fully connected and just by sharing and saying words we're not really going to get the full benefit of what these ceremonies can give us, you know. So yeah, I've said a lot, I'm going to take a breath.

Speaker 1:

You know, we often lose our ability to be adaptable and to experience the full range of human emotions, and what I really loved about the experience was like all the different modalities and the different therapeutic approaches that you use, whether it was adventure therapy, embodiment classes or doing some of the deeper emotional work. It really helped us develop that range. Even going before going into ceremony and you look at children and it's like they go from like crying, screaming to all of a sudden laughing and playing, and we've lost that ability to do that just because it's not culturally acceptable. And so I really felt that I was able to really tap into that and just being able to give myself that permission to express myself sober in front of a group of people, prior to doing any type of plant medicine or psychedelic therapy right Like doing that first, and then you felt more free, I felt really empowering, I feel confident when I'm able to express those parts of myself.

Speaker 1:

You know we can have these insecurities going into it and thinking that we're not going to be able to feel comfortable to express, but you really do, because the container is so safe and everyone's everyone's there with you and so just being able to really dive in and experience the range of like all emotions prior to going into it really set me up. I felt for success and also just being feeling grounded in my body, so it wasn't like this disconnected, dissociated, you know. Going into all these different ranges of like expression and emotion, like it was very grounded and it felt really embodied and so it was really supportive. So well done for sure.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, thanks for highlighting all that and yeah, you said it beautifully. It's like, well, I've already kind of opened up and done some weird or crazy things, sober, so what's the big deal if I do it in a few days on mushrooms, and so I love that and that's, yeah, that's deep preparation and sense of like. All right, I have a sense of already what might come up. And, ironically, what I see is when myself or others take the time to do focus prep work ahead of time, then I don't have to go as far into the shadow or deal with as much hard teachings from the ceremonial elements as when I, you know, and then I can just spend more of the adventure learning and getting that clearing, you know. So it's almost like doing that work ahead of time helps to shift how the ceremony actually happens. And you reminded me of another key differentiating factor I would say one is just the way it looks on paper.

Speaker 2:

Again, we're coming from this northern mindset More is better. If I'm going to spend $5,000, I got to get as much out as I can. This one has three, oh wait, that one does four. Oh God, that one does five. I'm going there. More is not better in this instance, and very rarely, it but is that you know, even though on paper you see one larger ceremony, other little mini, different styles of ceremonies, I would argue like you're getting so much more value out of it because you're actually getting focused time and what that took to create what we went through together was as, as a facilitator, as a director of the program, I had had to say wait a second. More is not better. I want people to actually get long lasting change from this. So we're going to, as facilitation team, work harder Again. It's a lot easier to just do psychoeducation and sharing groups in a large group. It takes a lot more presence and facilitation to really work with each person individually in that formatting to allow that each person to get opened up deeper right, and then, like you said, it makes the connection feel even stronger.

Speaker 2:

Before we even put any sacraments in us and oftentimes there's within 24 to 48 hours of arriving people are already deep in the journey space, which, again, I'm not I'm not saying it's wrong, melissa, and I do think that for some people out there that are really well processed, self-regulated, very experienced with this, just going and do three ayahuasca ceremonies or mushroom ceremonies back to back to back can have a lot of value because I know how to work with it. But I think that and what we're working on with Atman is building a place that is for everyone, not just for the high spiritual seekers or the people that have done this a thousand times. It's like the ability to meet people where they're at, and I think that's the other key programming is that you're not going to go to the Ayahuasca center if you're not going to drink Ayahuasca. We actually have people that come through our program that I always encourage everyone. You're never going to be forced to do anything. You're going to get intelligence and education on what dosage would probably be a great way to challenge you, but ultimately you get to choose.

Speaker 2:

If you even take anything, and usually every retreat there's at least one person that either goes very low dose or doesn't even take anything, and they still have an amazing day because they're being guided, they're doing the work you know, and then just spending a five to six hour window of like self-reflection and guidance on how to move what's stuck inside of us out is powerful, whether we put the plants in us or not, and so that's another key differentiator and I think you're doing a great job of extracting what some of the fears are that some of our listeners might be going through, and some of the fears that, especially for the majority of part of our planet right now, which is not the hippies or the barefooted ones running through the land having these ceremonies all the time, I think there's a lot of people out there that are very curious about this, and yet they're scared that it's going to be too much. It's going to I don't want to see what actually happened to my childhood. I don't want to, and the programming where we've built and continue to polish allows for that. Like we'll meet you right where you're at. We're going to give you opportunities and say, hey, if you want to go to the next level of awareness of awake, you can. But it's also okay and you'll be respected to stay where you're at, and that that's okay too. We'll work with, like, how do you move forwards from, from within? That you know.

Speaker 2:

And a retreat like this that offers psychedelic experiences and yet it's not mandated, and yet you would still have an amazing time even if you didn't take anything, because the whole retreat is not just about I'm not just sitting there for three or four nights watching everyone else around me purge and go through their stuff. I'm still very much a part of all the same processes as them. So I admit, as someone that has been trained clinically and also knows the ancient wisdom, to me this is the compromise. This is that place where how do you make it feel welcoming to people that are curious but scared understandably, because, it's true, if you don't have the prep work and you just go and do this stuff, it can be very scary and it can be re-traumatizing, you know.

Speaker 1:

Well, that was my first time ever doing psilocybin in ceremony with other people First time ever and I had been microdosing before and I had done a larger doses. I would never suggest for people to do that on their own. I was terrified to do it in ceremony, like prior two years ago, and so I was like slowly building myself up to that by going to breathwork ceremonies and, yeah, I felt like there was definitely some hesitation, some fear going into it, but completely gone. Now, after that experience, I'm so grateful and can you share with us a little bit about the other kind of modalities that you incorporate? Is there family constellations work, ifs work, like what else do you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's kind of our own amalgamation of many, but yes, internal family systems work is definitely influencing it. In IFS, as it's known as part of a larger body of psychological framework called parts work or structural dissociation, and there are many different models outside of IFS that they're all roads lead to Rome. It's basically the intelligence that, per neuroscience, per ancient wisdom, per modern psychology, we have this one body and yet we have very many parts of self that live inside this body much like to Dick Schwartz's compliments in his book, is amazing. It is like having a little family inside of ourself and so that's a huge piece and that works so well with psychedelics and ceremony and altered states of consciousness, because that's a simplified way of saying what happens is often it's a parts party and all these different parts are just coming up to be seen and to be remembered and to be acknowledged for the first time in some cases. So parts work is a heavy influence Constellation therapy, which in a nutshell, is basically using human relational field, the way we are in space with each other and we mirror on each other and we reflect things back to each other, using that within the group to help extract and sort of see the deeper themes in people's stories. Their constellation is like my mom was like this and my dad was like this and okay, we're going to set this up and set that up and see it all from a higher perspective, that's huge.

Speaker 2:

Sensory motor psychotherapy, the principles of sequencing trapped energy, releasing I call it trauma residue. For every trauma I harbor, there's contraction patterns in my neuromuscular system that create tension on organs and create biochemical cocktails, and so helping people understand sensory motor work and how to sequence the energy is a big piece of what we do and integrate into that, obviously, things like breath work and play nature adventures. We're continually right now we're in between transitioning how we're gonna build our space, but cold plunges and saunas, those kinds of elements are just great tools to help open all of that. And ultimately, yeah, I think that the key of the key thread throughout the week you know this is we're talking about the week long experience but is is embodiment. You know there's just that's. If the core clinical theme is embodiment, then we have all these different sort of tools and approaches that we use to help keep encouraging that.

Speaker 2:

And I've said it before in other talks I've given, like you know, psychedelics, these plant sacraments we put in us. They are the master somatic teachers, they are the mastic somatic therapists, and that that's what happens when we take them and we choose to let go and breathe and surrender to it. Basically, in a nutshell, people start to sequence, they start to let go of the trapped energy because the controller, judge, socially programmed, appropriate part is no longer running the show right and so it's a whole hodgep. So it's a whole hodgepodge. It's a whole hodgepodge of stuff, but it's and it's continually evolving. But yeah, those are some of the clinical frameworks.

Speaker 2:

And then the last quick thing I'll say in all this is that, yeah, the indigenous frameworks which was my earliest healer, healing moments for me was I went through that path first and then became a clinician. Oftentimes people go through clinical and realize, okay, this is great and I'm really smart and I've got a lot of heady techniques, but I don't really know what to do with all this stuff and they end up going into either somatics or shamanic elements. I feel so blessed that I got that first and young, and so I just also honor that. All of those elements of creating ceremony doesn't have to be all these strange things. Ceremony just means like creating sacredness right. It means like doing something with intention and sacredness, and that is also brought into everything we do. In the Awaken experience. It was that sort of indigenous wisdom.

Speaker 1:

We choose to make it sacred or not, you know well, and so, after having this experience, if someone were to come to the retreat like, what can they expect afterwards? What type of support will they have afterwards? What will be available to them? Um, what can they expect to come like up for them, like in their lives? I know many people are scared um from conversations that I've had of is this going to change my entire life when I get back from an experience like this?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so great. I mean, integration really is the hard work. The ceremonies can be tough. They can also be really fun. The deep dives that the week long, it's often like pretty amazing You're getting. You know, so many needs met and taken care of.

Speaker 2:

In a way, it's when that all ends and the bubble pops and here we are back in life and you know, I, I'm I often say that this is the achilles heel of the industry. Is that? No one, not even myself. I was running small private boutique retreats for two and a half years before starting this project and I just I couldn't keep up with every client and seeing them weekly and doing these integration sessions. Of course I onboard more people to help, but even that that it's a difficult challenge we all face society as well as the providers of these retreats and so I first want to just own the shadow before we talk about the light. The shadow is like it's not there right now. Hardly anyone, if anyone, is really doing that, and even partly because it's a big challenge and also, like I named earlier, providing focused, individualized, one-on-one care is a much more time consuming, pricey endeavor than gathering groups and moving them through in group processes. So there's that variable that has to do with it. But what I'm working on right now is first of all, like in the, the sort of the bundled compensation for coming to the experience. It includes four group integration sessions afterwards and then something else that I realize is only going to last as we sort of launch later this year into the first year of operations. But right now I have my whole clinical team that helps me run the retreats. They're all available for one-on-one counseling, coaching, therapeutic work afterwards, and so that's a unique offering that oftentimes, if organizations do have this, that work is done by someone different than the people that were actually there with them in the moment moving through everything, and inevitably that will only be scalable to so far. So I'm also working with a couple of different partners right now to create a more advanced digital platform that not only makes it easier to access those services that are aligned.

Speaker 2:

The other main challenge I hear so much is like well, great, I went and did this, but I went back to my talk therapist and they want to do CBT on the aliens or whatever it is, and it just it doesn't quite fit anymore, and so that's the other challenge. It's not just about finding a therapist. It's about finding someone that is trained somatically and trained in ceremony to really be able to properly integrate someone. So that's what I'm working on is making that, that group, that tribe if you will, and and also just amplifying the ability of community, of other like-minded folks that have gone through it even if they weren't in my retreat but they went through the same experience to then start to be able to host and have more. You know, I guess it would be like the wider student body of participants that can connect and support each other. So that's what I'm working on.

Speaker 2:

It's not fully manifested yet at this exact moment and for what's coming up in April, I have the opportunity to connect people directly with the facilitators themselves and continue that work, and it's yeah, it's a never-ending process. The work's never done, but there are upgrades and if we don't claim our upgrades and work to embody them, then we're just looping or sliding backwards. And that's the main thing is people feel like, oh, I put all this money and time into this seven-day thing and like I should be fixed, I should be done. No, like you just came and got all the upgrades, you came and got all the rewiring. Now you've got to keep it alive.

Speaker 2:

And the number one variable or challenge I see is not about meditation or staying eating healthy or disciplining, journaling or something. It's that people have deep awarenesses around relationships in their current day life that are out of balance, and to really heal or to move forward with what they are shown in an, a retreat or in a ceremony is very tough conversations and people go back and they don't want to have those conversations, and so it's that lack of bringing my authentic truth into my current life that actually sets people back. It's not because they didn't do enough meditating and, yeah, meditation, all those other obvious sort of integration tools those help. But the number one pitfall I see and I admit it too for myself, it's not easy. It's not easy to go back and speak truth to your mom or whoever it is about what you just learned. But it's that truth speaking that, I argue, is what makes the biggest difference of where I see people who come and do this experience and they just keep rising and they just keep gaining from what they've seen.

Speaker 2:

Last quick thought on this, alyssa, is that one of my teachers helped me realize is like looking back at ourselves, former selves, whatever age it was, and we see something we did that was like, oh, why did I do that? Like man, didn't I see that guy was a jerk. It's like wait a second, at that moment I didn't have the upgrades, I didn't see what I see now. So, yes, see it and recognize how it was out of alignment. But don't shame, don't put so much harshness on like ah. And yet we can definitely get mad at ourself and or hold accountable. Now that we've got this upgrade, I need to put it to use. Now that I've shown what I've shown through the relational therapy, through the ceremony, through the nature adventure we did, I see it now.

Speaker 2:

If I go back home and I just keep my mouth shut, then I ought to be mad at myself or call myself out, be like wait. But now you do see it and you know if you I'm talking to myself. You know if I don't speak this, this is going to just repeat. I'm just going to start drinking again. I'm just going to start vegging out porn. Whatever our poison is, we'll start to seep back in. Not because it didn't work and not because we're not amazing. It's because we're still learning that courage to speak our truth and and let our life unfold Right, as opposed to thinking that I can control the outcome. If I don't say this, everything will be good, it'll be fine, it'll be like back to normal, right, it's BS, right, yes?

Speaker 1:

Well, insights are quick. Transformation takes time and I I find the journey after attending like ceremony like this very similar to my journey starting the 12 steps, cause I had a spiritual awakening when I got sober. It's actually how I got sober, had a white light experience, but having an experience like that, it just it shines a light on all your shadows. But having an experience like that, it just it shines a light on all your shadows. So you feel called like you have to get this stuff off your chest, but also realizing that, just because you had this heightened awareness and the spiritual experience, not other people are at that level and are going to be able to receive it. So it's always safe to give yourself some space just to integrate that experience first, sit with it and, of course, you want to do something with it.

Speaker 1:

But it doesn't have to be done right away. And I think often we come back from these experiences, think that we need to make all these changes right away. But I mean even in recovery. You know it's often suggested like don't make any big changes in recovery because you are going to see everything that's wrong in your life initially. So take some time to adjust to that and then decide what you need to change and what needs to be said.

Speaker 2:

Well said. Couldn't agree more, you know, and yeah, that's it. It's just letting ourselves get used to that and feeling that new sense of self, and then it's a much more grounded way to have those conversations.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, thank you. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you think that we should touch on?

Speaker 2:

You know I I am going to repeat this message until I get tired of repeating it. We are the medicine. You know, within the context of everything we've talked about, there's so much giving unconscious, giving our power away, as we talk about psychedelic medicines, plant medicines. They are sacraments they're offering themselves so that we can awaken. We are the medicine. Everything they're showing us, everything they're unlocking, is already there, whether it's beautiful and heavenly or scary and hellish. It's already within us, and so that's my invitation for any listeners that are willing to try it on as they continue to explore this.

Speaker 2:

I know I'm an anomaly and an outlier, and all the materials and marketing and propaganda right now of this industry all talk about plant medicines, plant medicines, and it's just to say, okay, but how different is that from saying this pill is going to fix me? And I've been seeing this. I've been seeing a few other voices on Instagram lately and people saying like, actually, here's what ayahuasca did not do for me, or mushrooms, it doesn't matter. But it's like sort of admitting like it didn't just magically heal me. It didn't just. It's not the medicine. It is a friend, an ally, a teacher, a guide, a sacrifice, a sacrament, but it's really not, it's only a medicine.

Speaker 2:

As much as we want to stay in the same construct that's gotten us to this point of society, which is thinking that something outside of me is going to fix me, it's not Now. Can things from outside of us help us, guide us, support us? Heck, yeah. And can that be humans and plants and animals? Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2:

But this idea that you know, yeah, idea that you know, yeah, I just I want to encourage more people to, and it doesn't. It's not a versus, it's not like if I take back my power and say I am the medicine doesn't mean that I don't love, respect or honor the plants. For me, it lets me honor them even more, because I'm now not looking at them as like a crutch or a fix me. Or maybe you're going to save me if I could just sneak away and do this, so I have the insight. It's like no, this insight's already in me and if I choose to engage with you, please help me find it. So I think that's the only thing that I would want to say today and otherwise, yeah, you know, great to share all this with you today and happy to keep just letting this, this journey, unfold, alyssa.

Speaker 1:

I so appreciate this conversation. I think this is going to be so helpful for anyone who is on the fence or feels pulled in different directions because they hear some people say that ayahuasca destroyed, or psilocybin destroyed, their nervous system, or thinking about going to other retreat centers where you know they're doing back-to-back ceremonies. So I think this is going to be a really great episode for people to listen to, just to help them, you know, unravel some of these fears that they might have going into it. So thank you so much my pleasure.

Speaker 2:

Thanks again for all the great work you're doing and as they say down here in Costa Pura Vida. May we have a pure life.

Speaker 1:

Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode and gained a ton of value and insights from it. I'm sure you did. Dr Jesse Hansen is absolutely incredible and if you'd like to learn more about Jesse, the work that he does and these awakened experiences, please visit the show notes. You'll find all of his links there where you can learn more about him and dive into that. And until next time, remember soften your jaw, straighten your spine, open your heart and deepen your breath.