Travis Pastrana's Co-Driver OPENS UP about Rally Crashes, F1, Ken Block, X-Games and more! Rhianon Gelsomino

In this episode, Rhiannon Gelsomino, a professional rally co-driver for action sports icon Travis Pastrana, shares her journey through the exhilarating and dangerous world of rally racing. She discusses the intricacies of co-driving, the unique bond between a driver and co-driver, her experiences with injuries, and the dynamics of rally racing in America versus the world stage. Rhiannon also opens up about her personal milestones, including partnering with her husband Alex in rallying and their collaborative venture, Oz Rally Pro. The episode delves deep into the importance of hard work, the impact of Ken Block on the sport, and the intriguing crossover between various motorsports disciplines. Don’t miss her motivational insights and stories of resilience and passion in one of the most challenging sports there is.

00:00 Intro
02:00 Getting in a car with Travis Pastrana
14:26 Travis Pastrana's Work Ethic and Versatility
20:33 Hitting a tree at 180kph
25:51 School teacher to Rally Racing
28:00 Motivation in Rally Racing
36:07 WRC vs F1 vs Nascar
41:55 Brandon Semanuk
46:20 Cross over into Rally
49:07 The Decline of X Games
53:20 Prize money and sponsorships
56:44 Australian vs American Rally
01:07:45 Thoughts on Ken Block
01:15:56 Ken Block's Gymkhana
01:20:17 Goals in WRC
01:32:00 Future plans
01:36:25 Meaning of Success

Watch on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmiFpbEI7E

Follow Rhianon:
https://www.instagram.com/rhianongelsomino/

Follow me:
https://www.instagram.com/stefangarlicki/

Transcript

 I still live with a broken fibula that I move in my leg and it's a party. He'll be like, get your leg out, and I'm like, no. He thinks it's hilarious. What gave you the confidence or inspiration to get in a car with Travis Pastrana behind the wheel? I remember when the opportunity come up and my dad in Australia told me, be careful what I wish for

Rihanna Gels Simino is a professional rally co-driver for action sports icon Travis Pastrana, along with her husband Alex, she has driven all over the globe and established herself as one of the best co-drivers on the planet outside the car. The couple have also started Oz Rally Pro, an advanced rally co-driver course to nurture future stars.

Yes, I've had times where we've got to end of the stage in my legs like a. Shaking you because of the adrenaline and like the high speed and nearly hitting trees and Travis saying, re, we're gonna die. And I'm like, oh, great. Don't tell me about it, Bucky. One year one, four. X Games, gold medals, $200,000. Wow.

Who's like the best driver that you have been able to work with or have seen live. And he was just such an innovator in our sport. And yes, he was one of the best drivers in the world and he was one of the most creative people that you'll ever come across and meet. So it was a huge loss to our sport

Rhiannon, thanks for coming on. Um, I, the first thing I wanted to ask you is, um, what. Gave you the, the confidence or inspiration to, to get in a car with, uh, Travis Pastrana behind the wheel. It's actually a running joke that all of his friends are crazy, but n are crazy enough to get in a rally car with him except me.

So that always makes me a little bit worried. Uh, I remember when the opportunity come up and my dad in Australia told me, be careful what I wish for. Uh, it's definitely been an interesting journey with Travis. Uh, so we met, um, my husband Alex Re for Ken Block for 17 years. And, and we met a long time, um, ago in the American Rally Championship.

I was doing two drive championship with my brother and then some other people. Um, and with Ken being with Ford and Travis being with Subaru, there was always a bit of a conflict with my husband and I, whether we could work with either with two different manufacturers and things like that. Yeah. And then in 2020 and Covid hit and Ken left Ford, all of a sudden there was an opportunity for me to work with Travis because Ken no longer was linked to a manufacturer and you didn't have a husband wife in opposing manufacturing teams, I guess.

Uh, so yeah, the opportunity come up and, and we decided we'd do one rally together and see how it went. Um, because obviously I didn't, you know, I'd never been in a car with him. Um, I, I thought of him as this crazy guy who did all these stunts and things that were insane. Um, and, and how would I be in a rally car with him?

So the cool thing was that like, I've done double the amount of rallies of Travis and traveled all around the world with my racing. So I was a school teacher. So, you know, when I got in with him, he was very open to like. Hey, make me better, teach me things, you know? Mm-hmm. And I didn't expect that from him.

Like there was no ego, there was no, you know, I'm Travis Persa, who, who are you sort of thing. Um, so that was pretty amazing. So before we even did our first race together, we went out and did some reconnaissance practice to work on notes where I felt like he could be better with his notes and, and be working harder.

I taught him how to use video analysis to improve his performance and all these sort of things before we did our first race together, and we won our first race. So it was one of those things where we are driving to the, to the podium and he is like, so it was one race, but he happy to stay in the car with me and, and yeah, the rest is history.

We're, we're into what our fifth season now, uh, we've won an American championship together. Um, he took 2023 off, um, to focus on family and stuff. So I sat with Leah Block then and won the two drive championship with her. So even though he took a year off, I still had a great year with young Leah. So. Yeah, it's been awesome.

Yes, yes. Sometimes I have to pull him into line, but he's pretty good at listening to me. Thank goodness. That's I, oh geez. I can't even imagine like, what that must be like, like regardless if it's Travis or another driver, but to be sitting in the passenger seat and have all of your trust in the person behind the wheel, you know?

Um, what, what does that feel like? Well, like, you know, to be able to deal with that. 'cause I think for most people, they just think like, you know, even driving yourself at those speeds would be scary enough. But now you're sitting in a passenger seat and the cars going sideways between trees, you know? I honestly think that.

For me, all the work that I've put into it and I, the work I expect my driver to put into it. When I buckle myself into that race car and I do up my helmet and it's 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. I have such a belief and confidence in the work that we've done and in the safety gear and everything that's around me, that I never have a fear of what could happen.

Yes, I've been injured very badly. Uh, I nearly lost my life a few times, but I, I have such a belief in the work we're doing that I don't question what's about to happen in front of me. Yes. I've had times where we've got to end of the stage of my legs like a shaking because of the adrenaline and like the high speed and nearly hitting trees and Travis saying, re we're gonna die.

And I'm like, oh, great. Don't tell me about it. Did me die? So that is one thing I have worked on him with a lot was like, he would always give me a commentary of what's about to happen with a crash. And I'm like. I just don't wanna know, mate, like my head is down, I'm pulling you notes. Just if I'm gonna hit that tree and you think I'm, I'm gone, just let me go.

You know what I mean? And whereas like we'll be going by the time he says, Ree, we're gonna die, or whatever drama he creates, I've looked up from the notes, now I'm seeing us going towards the tree. And then it gives me that elevated heart rate, you know, the stress. You can hear my voice, the pitch change, and then all of a sudden we are fine.

And he is like, okay, we're right. You know, it's like, you know, so it's, it's, it's an interesting, you know, combination, the driver and co-driver in rally, that's for sure. And I, I honestly think that it's probably one of the most trusting sports in the world where not only I trusting my driver, that he drives according to what I call the notes and things.

He's trusting that my timing and precision. Will be exactly where it needs to be, so then he can drive a hundred percent. So I, I mean, I've thought about it many times and I don't know, you know, at the top level where we are, I don't know if there's another sport where, you know, you have the same trust that we have to have with two people in that car.

You know, believing in each other and, and knowing that you have each other's life in your hands, you know, it's, it's definitely a different type of sport, that's for sure. Geez, I, I can't even, yeah, it's, it's hard to contemplate actually. You know, I think people from the outside, you see it on TV or you, you know, you watching it, even if you watch it live, it's like, it's hard to really imagine what it must feel like for you guys in the car for, from both perspectives.

Because I mean, you've got him who's, who's trusting. Yeah. As you said, everything that you say, and it's like, okay, we are going like, I don't know, even though at breakneck speeds like a couple hundred miles an hour, and then you've, you've got a. Series of corners and rises and dips and, and there's trees and there's clips and, and he's like, it's all good.

She's gonna give me exactly the right coordinates and I know exactly what's coming. And, and from your perspective, you are, you've got your trust in him, um, that he's gonna do and execute exactly what you say, uh, on point, which is, geez, I, I can't even imagine what must be, how do you, how do you like mentally prepare for that?

Yeah, it actually makes me laugh when Travis or all post and onboard or I. Something like that to our social media and people will be like, oh, who's that ballast? Who would trust a girl in the car? And all these crazy comments and trying this lot of time. He, he doesn't generally get on and reply to people.

Mm-hmm. But a lot of time he'll be like, if I don't have re number one, I can't drive half as fast as I'm driving. And number two, you know, you can't do the sport. The sport is about, you know, driving flat out to these notes that we're writing and, and if you don't have them, if I'm the ballast that's just sitting there not doing anything, you know, we're gonna be really slow.

So the comments are quite funny. You can tell that people don't understand the sport and then they'll say like, oh, no way would I have Awo a woman in the car. She'll take you the wrong way. And all these sort of things. Whereas Travis is like, it's interesting 'cause he has two young daughters. Um, and so he doesn't care if you're male or female, he just wants the best person for the job.

Mm-hmm. I'm extremely organized, very good at multitasking. You know, I, every day I give him a minute by minute rundown of where he has to be, what time he has to be there. I send it to his wife as well, so she knows what we're up to. Like, and he always says, it's so great with how particular I am with every breakdown of everything that's going on, not only in the car, but what's happening, you know, around us as a team, you know, and I'm the only female in our whole team.

It's not like it's, it's very male dominated sport. Yeah. But we, everything about it that way. So, so some of the comments are quite funny, you know, and, and I really try and do a good job of being calm in the car. So sometimes people see me calling notes and they think it's like a Sunday drive, and it's like, if I put you in there, you'll be screaming your ass off.

Like, you know. Petrified of what's happening. Whereas like my job is to calm and is to keep him on the road. Whereas if he hears a change in my pitch straightaway, he is like, everything okay, re like, what can I do? You know what I mean? Like, 'cause he knows that I don't have a fear in that car. I, I'm there to do a job.

Um, and, and because I have no fear, if he hears fear in my voice, then he starts to question, am I driving, you know, out of where I should be, does rethink that, I'm overdr, things like that. So then he trusts in me if he does hear that. So it is quite interesting to read comments and know how we feel about things and, and how it is in the cast.

So that's always, uh, a cool thing to experience for me. That's for sure. Jeez. Yeah, I, I, I remember you talking about Overdr. Uh, you know, Travis has had some pretty, pretty big crashes over the years. I remember one specifically, it was, I don't know, it was years ago and, and he rolled the car, I don't know, 10 times, 15 times, I don't know.

And at the end is like, just shout. He's like, oh, you are alive. You alive. It's still circulating on social media, and I just think poor. How, how he is. Yeah. And look the big difference between where you start and like, so we've done, I think it's 25 races together now, and only crashed twice, touch wood, because now we'll probably crash in our next race.

I shouldn't have said that, but, um, one massive thing is in America, they were quite behind in the sport and I'd been like. Racing in the world championship with my brother and things like that. So I'd learnt where the sport is at the time, at this point in time sort of thing. And I come to America and they were still like using provided notes, which in America we called gemba notes.

So it's, you know, a computer system, they drive the stage, they spit out the notes, and that's how people driving. So Travis was very, and so was Ken. They were both very used to this old, you know, system of notes. Whereas my brother and I were always writing our own notes and, and, and teaching Travis the importance of writing what you see for what the road means versus how someone else sees it.

So I think that like bringing back his crash ratio, that sounds terrible, um, but has been a major thing in him writing his own notes because now. His eyes are up, his per peripheral vision's open. He's driving on reconnaissance, he's telling me what to write down. Here's the distance 100, uh, you know, this corner's a, a left three, oh wait, this corner opens, it tightens, whatever.

And he's using his vision. He's, you know, steering wheel, his peripheral vision on the sides, like to write these notes and write what he sees and, and, and then drive accordingly. Whereas back when he had that massive crash, it was like, here's the notes. Go drive the stages. And, and who knows, like how the note was written, how he attacked it mm-hmm.

To versus what he thought that was. So it's interesting how the sport progressed in a way that not only now are they doing proper notes here, you know, um, Alex and I brought a lot of, you know, how do we use video technology that we both learned from the world championship, which people weren't using here in America.

Mm-hmm. I think those things have really helped with, you know, Travis does a lot of homework now because he sees how you do it versus like, before just being like, why do people record reconnaissance? You know what I mean? Like, whereas now he sees it as a, he can visualize stages and things like that. So he sees it as a great advantage of what he can do.

So it makes a big difference, I think. Yeah. Insane. Um, I was actually wondering, I mean, from, you obviously spend so much time with him, um, and he's a bit unique in that he is been successful at a lot of sports, um, and done a lot of things that maybe, probably shouldn't have done. But, uh, I mean, what do you think, I mean, from your perspective, what do you think is his sort of biggest strength or, you know, the reason that he's been able to succeed at, at rally, at motocross, at freestyle, at, you know, so many different things that he's, that he's attempted.

In all honesty, he's a really hard worker. Like anything he does, like people don't see the behind the scenes of him working out in the gym. It's not like he's always posting like, you know, I'm at the gym working out and, and things like that. Like, the guy never stops. Like, we have these whoop things, these fitness things.

And so, you know, as a group we see how much he's always, you know, active and busy and doing whatever he is doing. Um, he's involved in so many things with sponsors as well. It's not only, you know, the sport that he's doing, which, you know, now it's rally, but like you said, it's so many other sports. Like he's just whole way, he looks about life like, like I'll be like struggling with like, oh, I wanna have soda and I wanna have, you know, sugar.

And Travis is like, you just don't have it. Like, he has such a strong head that he can just be like, well, just don't have it. Re like, he doesn't understand why you would let your mind be weak. Have that piece of chocolate, you know what I mean? Like, he's just got such a strong mind and strong, you know, in ev, everything he does, he just believes in himself.

He works hard. He doesn't let failure ever bring him down. Like he, he'll just work out a why it happen and make himself better. Um, and he is not one of those people that like, is ever negative about things. He always finds a positive in something, you know, even, um, you know, if something hasn't gone well, you know, these steps led to this, which worked well.

Now this is where we need to continue to focus to make things better. Um, in our notes, for example, we're losing time on like, so you have a lot longer corner. And it tightens and it might open and tighten and, and we were writing it too basic. So we kept focusing on how do we make that corner better? Oh, we need to write the length of the corner before it tightens so we're not breaking too early.

Where the ca corner goes from say a six to a three. So we're, if he's not knowing how long that six lasts before it gets to a three, he's gonna be on the breaks. And then you lose time. Like 0.1, 0.1, 0.1 to get to that tightens three oh, and now the corner opens again. But how long does it open before it tightens?

So like in his life, he's really good at breaking down. Yes, he can be crazy and a DHD and all sorts of things, but then he is also good at breaking down into little pieces. How do I become a better athlete? How do I become a better father? How do you know all of these things, you know? And, and realistically he was like one of the, he was the best in the world on a motorcycle at a very young age.

You know what I mean? Okay. And he had so many injuries that really led him to rally it like 18, 19 because he with age come a cage, but he wasn't even old. Um, yeah. But I think he'd worked so hard from such a young age. I mean, you're a mountain bike, you know how hard it is. You know, all the training you have to do, you know the mental side of it when you wake up at 6:00 AM and you don't feel like going and training, but what do you do?

You get out of bed, you get your ass outta bed and you go and train. And, and that's what athletes do. And Travis is an athlete in many different areas. And his strong head and his strong belief has been something that's really kept him, that he's 41 years old now and he, and he's still remarkable at what he does.

So I, you know, as athletes like you and I are, I think, you know, he's been someone that's, I think been a role model to so many people because we've looked at him and aspired to, how has he done so many different sports and been so successful in his career, his sponsors and all those things throughout the years?

Uh, insane. Yeah. It's actually, he was one of the people, I, I wouldn't say through my career that I've really had an idol. Um, I've, I've always respected people and there've been people that have been inspiring to me, but it was, as a youngster, I did motocross when I was younger, and that was always a, he was always someone that stood out to me, uh, just because of his sort of perseverance as well.

Not just with what he is accomplished, but also through all the injuries and, uh, yeah, I think that's. That's a lot harder than, than a lot of people care to realize. Um, you know, to come back from all of that and then change sports and then make it to the top again. Exactly. I think that that's one reason why like, he's like a brother to me, where we're very close and like he knew straight away, like in 2014, he was doing the race where my car caught fire and my hands and face were burnt.

And he was doing that race and he knew that this girl, that this happened to four weeks later, she was back in the race car racing again. And he'd heard about my broken legs way back in 2009. So like, I still live with a broken fibula that I move in my leg and it's a party. Be like, get your leg out. And I'm like, no.

He thinks it's hilarious. But I think that little things like that, like he knew that. And it's dismount may sound sexist, but I wasn't like a soft girl. I was a hardass at like, you know, if something happens and we are rolling and whatever, I'm as tough as he is. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So like it's been something that's been, you know, something that we laugh and joke about because I haven't had as many broken brains as him, but I've had a lot of broken bones and my dad raised me a tough country girl that like a little tomboy and I was all, we had an earth moving business and I was on the machines and trucks and changing tires and all sorts.

And so when Travis and I get a puncture, we both jump out of that car and we are changing a flat tire. And you know, we both work really hard together and he knows that re's strong, she can do any job she needs to do. And I think that you know, him knowing that a lot of things I've gone through in my life and being strong and got back to it and didn't give up has been a link that's really made us close, not only in the working environment, but like as a friendship as well.

Maybe that's a, you, you mentioned some pretty horrific, uh, injuries there, um, and crashes. Maybe you can walk us through Yeah. Some of, some of those and some of the worst ones and Yeah. What happened and, and yeah. How you, how you got back. Yeah. Like what, so eight, over eight, I think maybe 82 of my rallies have been with my younger brother, Brennan Reeves.

Um, we raced in the World Championship together and stuff. Um, and so we were doing, we, we started together in, I started rallying in 2005. He was too young, so I couldn't get him with him till 2006. So, um, you know, by 2009 we'd done quite a lot of rallying and we were competing in the Australian Rally Championship.

And we're leading our section of the race and with one stage to go, we had a really bad accident where we hit a tree at 180 kilometers per hour and my legs were broken in nine places, including both my feet. Oh my Lord. So, um, very lucky to be here. When you are in the middle of a forest and you have two broken femurs, like obviously you're internally bleeding and you don't have ambulances.

We're not on a racetrack, you know what I mean? We're in in rally, we're out in forest roads, and yes, there's gonna be an ambulance station somewhere, but where is it? Is it in the middle of the stage? Is the start of the stage, end of the stage, like, where is it to get to me? And at that point, we now have a, a really cool device that we carry in rally cars called Rally Safe.

And if there's GForce registered and cars are stopped and that it straightaway sends information to the cars that are coming to the Rally HQs organizers, they know something's happening and they can act immediately. Back then, it wasn't the case. So it was like the next car's getting to you, trying to get help, then trying to radio through.

So like, it was tough because like, you know, first of all, am I gonna make it? Are they gonna get me out in time? They had a helicopter there waiting. Luckily, uh, they took two and a half hours to get me out. So they did some pretty clever things in saving my life at that point. Um, and then, yeah, like surgeries, 11 surgeries.

Um, learning to walk again. Learning to walk again was probably the weirdest thing for me because in my mind, I. I remembered how to walk, so I didn't, like, I didn't even think about the fact I'd been in a hospital bed and a, and a, um, wheelchair and that now my muscles don't remember how to walk. You know, like I, I was only tiny.

I was like 60 kilos and I'd lost 10 kilos. So I'm down to 50 kilos. There's nothing off me. And now I, I thought that as soon as I was ready, I just stand up outta the wheelchair and walk. And so my mind was just like, okay, let's get back racing. Whereas I stood up and the, the, the physio people were telling me, no, you can't, like, you can't stand up.

And I was looking at them like they, and I just fell straight to the floor, like on this mat. And they were like, we were all laughing 'cause they're like, we told you can't walk. And I'm like, but I know how to walk. And they're like. Your muscles don't remember what to do anymore. Like, you know what I mean?

So that for me in all of it, like I, I was always positive. I was really lucky. I never went through any like, um, downtime. I was, I was meant to be fly. I was competing in Asia Pacific at the time. I was meant to be flying to Malaysia on the Friday. It happened on the Sunday. So I was meant to be flying to Malaysia to race with Emma Gilmore.

And, and I couldn't. And I, I come outta all these surgeries and I look at my dad and I'm like, how am I going to Malaysia on Friday? And he's like, you're not going to Malaysia on Friday. So it was just, I'm batshit crazy as all of you. Um, so I was just lucky that my mind stayed positive the whole time. And then once I was able to walk again and whatever, I, I missed five and a half months of rallying.

Mm-hmm. Um, got back to it. But it was just one of those things where I, it could have gone either way. Most people who have the injuries I sustained in that one crash, especially when. It was my hobby at the time. Yes, I had some pro ride, uh, drives where I was getting paid, but it's not like it was my full-time job at that point.

So most people just quit. Whereas I, I was a teacher and, and racing and teaching and it was weird because I went the opposite way. I got to the end of that year, quit teaching and went full-time racing. 'cause I'm like, okay, well I vibe for a reason. Let's, let's make this your full-time work. So mm-hmm. It was definitely a challenge and I think that.

For everyone out there who's going through injuries. It's just about, you know, like hard work. You know, do all the physio that you need to do, do all the exercises that they, you need to do to build yourself up, um, where your body needs to be. Because realistically, I live with a broken fibula, and I have for many years now, and, and so many people told me, you can't do this.

You can't do that and whatever, but listen to your body and see what your body tells you. Versus always being told by a doctor or something that, oh, well that's not possible, or You can't do this or that. Whereas I was just like, okay, let's get better. Let's get all these rods, pins, whatever outta my body so I can go back racing.

And if for some reason I have a serious accident, again, I don't have that metal work in my body that now gets bent and makes me mm-hmm. Limping all the time or something like that. So I think it's about, you know, positivity and those sort of things. So you were a school teacher that was raised in Bradley.

Uh, I can't imagine like that's not your average school teacher. I was a PE teacher. So sport. So at least sport. Um, I, I have had an interesting life. Let's just say I, I'm a full, I'm a fully qualified pe PE teacher, and I did that for six years high school students. Mm-hmm. And I loved it. I actually one teacher of the year for my state for Victoria.

So I, I was, I was a pretty good teacher, but then I, I, the racing was too exciting for me. And then I'm also a fully qualified hairdresser, so when I go home to Australia, I have all my family lined up to get their haircut Travis as well. Do you know how many rallies I've had to cut his bloody hair with little pink paper scissors that he found, supermarket and a brush.

Oh yeah. Did you at least get a comb? He's like, you're fine. Re and you're trying to cut his hair. And it's like, oh my goodness. Wow. And then, and then, yeah. Now, now I just, I mean that in all honesty, that's why I started my training company. I was rally pro because I. I, I love, I do love teaching. I, I really love it and I wanted to give back to the sport.

I'm married to a professional co-driver. So if two professional co-drivers can get together and, and build a sport, uh, company that trains other people, why not? So, you know, we just come back from training 20 people in Minnesota on the weekend, and for me it was a way that not only am I rallying, I'm still teaching.

So you definitely have a passion for it. No, that's really, that's really cool that you've managed to combine those and bring that into it. Um, I mean, I, I, yeah. I think you could also be a, a motivational speaker, speakers. Well, because it's amazing that you said through all the, through that, uh, you know, through those injuries and stuff that you managed to, you were staying positive, uh, all the time.

'cause I feel like that's, it's somewhat something that I've struggled with and a lot of people struggle with when things, you know, when things get hard. Um, I mean, what was, first of all, was there, was there ever a moment where you kind of were, were like, Hmm, I'm not sure if I want to keep going with this, or that was 0.1 and, and 0.2 is where did the motivation come from or where does the motivation come from to keep, you know, putting it on the vine?

Yeah, it's actually interesting you say I, last year I did three motivational one for Subaru, USA, um, and then some dealerships, and I've been booked for a few this year, so it wasn't something that I was planning on. Um, but Subaru had me talking at some things and then they're like, oh, we need you to do this, and then this and that.

So I've also got another job doing that as my side thing now, which is, is it's nice extra, uh, work to have too. But like, it's, it's an interesting question 'cause I'm the oldest of four children. I was raised on a farm in Australia, uh, very small country town. Um, and right from an early age, I did a lot of sports, um, and did well at a lot of sports.

I would win the swimming medal, I'd win the cross country medal, I'd win the tennis, the netball, basketball, whatever. Like anything I did, I could do really well without having to work hard. So, in some ways, when you have a natural talent, I think it's fantastic, but some ways it makes you lazy because you, if you can just go win the cross country without training perfect, you know, you're naturally fit, you go do that.

But then once you start getting to that next level, you know, you go to the state, oh, I win the state. Cool. You know, I can win the state cross country. But then you get to the Australian level, oh, I can't win at the Australian level without, mm-hmm working hard. So I feel like for me, like it was one of those things that I was really good at all these things and go win everything, but I would never work hard enough to get to that next level.

So then my dad was a rally driver and he, I saw what he did and everything. And then my brothers were my, I've got a brother who's two years younger and he'd started rallying. Um, and then my baby brother was coming through eight years younger and I wasn't, you know, I was doing normal tennis, netball, basketball, whatever, PE teaching at university.

Never even considered doing rally. Um, and then my dad was like, you'd make a great co-driver for your younger brother. And I think it was the best motivation for me ever because it was something that I couldn't just do because I was good at it. I had no idea what I'm doing. I, I had to learn from scratch and growing up I had to sit at the front of the bus 'cause I would get travel sick.

So like, no way. That's actually one thing, one thing I wanted to ask you. I was like, don't you get motion sickness? Because I would get a horribly car sick. Yeah. So I think that like challenge of like. The dad throws at me like, you know, you should learn to do this. Where it wasn't something I could just go do and be a smart ass and be like, oh, I won this, or I won that.

And my dad would be like, but my dad was really good at like, I'd come home and I won the cross country and I'm cocky and like I'm thinking I'm this and that. Then the next morning at 5:00 AM my dad would throw a cold cup of water on me and say, come on, come beat dad on five Ks. And I'd be like, of course I can beat dad on five Ks.

He'd doing his work boots, getting ready to go in the machines all day and he'd beat me. And so like, I think it was good like that. My family would always be like, you know, even, you know when you're easy to start losing motivation because things are becoming easy for you, my family would throw new challenges at me.

You know what I mean? And so the rally thing was a great challenge in itself and it gave me a new motivation and, and so my brother Nathan was really great. He let me get in the first race and it was on maps. It was in the night. I'm like, what did my dad just do to me? And so I was really sick. I'm vomiting in the car.

I'm like, I hate this. You terrible. I'm not gonna do this. But the best thing was I got to the end of that and I'm like, okay, I can't, I can't let my dad beat me. Like I need to prove to him that like, I can do this. This is one of the hardest challenges of my life. I'm 24 years old. I'm, I'm a teacher, I'm happy with my life.

But then dad's throwing me this new challenge. And luckily Nathan agreed to have me again in the car because he could have just a, a brother could have just been like, no freaking like, so next rally, I'm sick again, but it's on road book. So at least like I have a book and I'm just having to call and it would just have junctions.

So like, it would be like four kilometers turn right. And I'd be 6, 6, 6, 6, 6. And then zero. I got the turn right and then two kilometers hairpin left and zero. So I get sick again. And then the next one we do is pace mode. And once I got onto Pace notes where we'd actually driven the stages, we'd wrote our own notes and I was like, continually, like busy and focused.

I never was sick again. So it was interesting that like my body, like when I was just sitting there having to feel what's going on, I didn't like it at all. Mm-hmm. But once I was like having to, like, I was so important in the car, once Pace Notes started that if I couldn't do my job, I obviously, you know, was letting my brother down or whatever.

So mm-hmm. It, it, that motivation definitely come from my family and the challenges they threw at me. And I mean, growing up on a farm where you're on dirt bikes, you're getting in the rally car with dad, you, you know, we had our own test rally stage at our house. We had our own speedway track we had. So like, there was never that fear, so I.

Part of it for me, like, I, I don't, I don't ever, I've sat with something like 30 different drivers in my career and I don't ever remember being scared, if that makes sense. Like, I can remember being like, this driver's a terrible driver, and like pull them into line and be like, Hey, tidy up. And, and at the end of the race being, I'll never work with that person again.

But it's not like I was sitting there going, I'm scared. I don't wanna do this. It was more like, they're a terrible driver. I don't wanna sit with 'em again, and I won't. And so it's, it's been an interesting mindset of like, I've never felt, you know. Unmotivated because of the challenges that are thrown at me through my sport.

Whereas like, you know, the running and stuff like that, I never challenged myself enough to be like, okay, you wanna be Australia's best country, cross country runner. I would always be like, I can win these and win these. Oh crap, I get to there on, I can't win. And it wasn't enough motivation to say, we'll work harder so next time you can.

And I don't know why that is. I think that there's a lot of athletes that are naturally talented and they, and you look at their skills and you're like, oh, they'll one day be, you know, one of the best in our country. But because it was so natural to them, they never make it because it was just easy. Yeah.

And I think that the better athletes are usually the ones who have had to work hard and have been thrown challenges that they've had to, you know, get through with my burns and broken legs. They give you those new, you know, ways of like, what is my next goal? Where am I going next? How do I recover from this to be back doing what I love?

And I, and I truly believe that that's why I was able to achieve what I have in Rally versus all of those other sports. And I mean, you're a pro in what you do and I'm, I'm sure you've come across this so many times as well. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, um, I mean you obviously need, everyone needs a certain amount of talent, but I feel like definitely that people that have to work for it in general, um, get way further than people that, you know, have talent.

Obviously if you've got someone who works hard and they have exceptional talent, then you've got, you know, you've got someone who's winning everything. But, you know, um, most of the time people have one or the other. Um. So it is, uh, it is interesting. Um, I don't know how much That's a good sort of segue as well, talking about other, you know, other sports and things.

I mean, how do you think, I mean obviously there's now different forms of race, then you've got Rally and you've got NASCAR and you've got Formula One and like different, different forms of, of car racing. What's your sort of opinion between, I mean, how do you view the other sports? Uh, which one do you think, I mean, obviously you're gonna be a little bit biased, but like, which drivers and, and yeah, which one do you think's more, more challenging?

Um, and do you think, for example, that I don't know, uh, Lewis Hamilton could, could come over and like, become a rally, rally racer, or, or vice also a NASCAR driver. Yeah. What, what's your sort of thoughts on that? 'cause I always think it's, you know, you've got these, all these different disciplines and everyone's like, no, we the best.

No, we the best. And sort of like, well. It's hard. I mean, in my opinion, I think, uh, rally is definitely, it's sort of like racing road versus off road, but it's at the same time you've got a co-driver, which you don't have in a lot of other disciplines. So, yeah. Uh, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

No, I think it's a really good question you ask because we have seen a few change, like, uh, formula One, uh, Kimmy Renan mm-hmm. Did the World Championship from Memory? It was like 2010 and 11. Ken and Alex doing it at the same time. I think Kimmy what was, he might've been in a Citron and they were in a Ford, but I remember them having good chats and fun out there and, and Kimmy obviously has been Formula One champion.

Um, he moved over to Rally and yeah, he did okay in the World Championship, but it's not like he was, I. Sebastian Loeb, who was like standout at that time. Um, and then in nascar it was interesting, I did a rally with Kurt Bush, who's NASCAR champion in Italy and in nascar, they don't ride, they don't race in the dark, they don't race in fog, they don't race in rain, they don't race in.

So we're in Italy and it starts pouring rain and it's dark. And he is like, oh, it's canceled re And I'm like, uh, what? And he was just blown away. He couldn't believe that. Like he just had to listen to me and trust what I'm saying and drive accordingly. But he can't see shit. Like, he's like, I can't see, I don't see the hairpin that you are talking with.

And so it is interesting to see the changeover and Travis has done nascar. Yeah. So he's like, obviously jumped in there. So I've spoke to him. My, my dad loves nascar. He come over, Travis, um, booked us all and we went to Daytona 500 to watch him and one of the most incredible experience in my life. But it's interesting to talk to him about.

The difference of driving a nascar, you know, the GForce, the, the speed they're doing around, you know, the Daytona track when they're going around it is just so different to being in a rally car. Even Kurt, we had we're at the Monza rally. Cir, uh, the Monza circuit we're on the street and it was like 500.

He gets into top gear and it's like going 200 kilometers per hour. And he says, re Is that all it's got? Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, but dude, we need to make a hairpin in like a hundred meters. Like, you know, so I think they're just such different sports. Like yes, in Formula One and nascar, they've got a spotter and they're listening to them and so they've still got like a voice that's talking to them, which sometimes they tell 'em to shut up or something like that.

I mean, if you did that in rally, you'd be in a lot of trouble. Um. But I think it, I, I think that changing disciplines or going between is always a difficult challenge. And, and we haven't really, other than, you know, Kimmy, that actually did it properly, like by going in a world rally car to the WRC and, and, uh, we haven't really seen the crossover happen very many times.

And yes, rally is my sport, which I love, but I'm also very appreciative of. What, what different, um, challenges you face as a NASCAR driver and a Formula One driver or whatever different motor sport you are performing in. Because even Louis Hamilton, the other day I was watching something that he was on a talk show, um, and he was talking about, I think it was like if he gains one kilo of weight, it was something like in that car, because of the different G-Force and everything, it was something like two seconds, a lap that he would lose in time or something.

And I was just blown away. So, you know, little things like, you know, one kilo of weight to a Formula One driver is such a big thing to them. And, and he was saying if you're bulky in the shoulders, like it's not good because when you're going around corners like. The car is going this way and, and trying to move the mm-hmm.

Body and everything over. And he was speaking about like how small, how important it's to be so small, like nearly like a jockey I guess for a formula driver. Mm-hmm. But then they need to be strong enough to drive that car. And so I was, I get, and I'm sure you're the same, like when we're interested in sport, like we are, I'm really interested to hear about the different training that they do in the different types of motor sport to train for what they're doing.

Even when you see the bands around their head and you know, they're putting the resistance on their neck to build up their strength and things like that in a Formula one car, that's really important. In a rally car it's important, but like. It's not as important because we're not facing the same G-Force as they are.

Mm-hmm. Um, yes. When we have jumps, if we have crashes and things like that, if our neck is strong, our core is strong, we're gonna recover better and have less chance the injury. But it's not really like we'd get to an end of a race and we can't walk because we're so sore because we weren't strong enough.

You know? Yeah. So I think that the, all the different disciplines of motor sport or even mountain bike riding like you, and like we have Brandon Seminar, who's our teammate, and I've Yeah, tested with Brandon for two days. His skills are phenomenal. Um, and the crossover that he's making from being.

Potentially the best mountain biker in the world, you know, red Bull Rampage, how many other times he's won that and all the other different things he does to being like an incredible rally driver and talking to him about like what he sees is similar and he said, you know, reading terrain like in a rally car, like you know, you've done reconnaissance, it was dry, now it's wet.

So now you're reading the train, it's slippery looking for different loose sections. It's the same on a mountain bike and you know that from all your racing like, so I think that it is interesting and, and I do think that the one crossover that I have found where it has been similar has been Brandon, where he has gone from mountain biking to rally.

How similar it is for him and even his pace notes. His pace notes are very, very good because he is great at breaking down the pieces of the road. And I think, you know, when you're mountain biking and you're racing through a forest on a mountain bike, you've got this narrow trail with trees and everything, you guys are having to, on the fly, like, you know, work out where that bike needs to be.

And it's the same in a rally car. And I, I think that that's why he's had a lot of success when he has moved over to our sport because of his background. And what in his mountain biking were you, were you, um, so you must have been around when, when was the first year that he started racing? Rally, remember?

Yeah. He, he has been racing rally for a long time, like 2010 or something, but he, he, oh wow, okay. He did a, uh, young driver shootout super in, I think it was. It was the start of 2018 from memory, and he was one of the five drivers that they asked to go to that, and it was all done secretly and people didn't know.

Um, I knew about it 'cause I, the year before I'd raced for Toyota with, um, Ryan Millon, um, and he was one of the five drivers that went to it. And Brandon was one of those drivers. They'd watched some of the stuff he'd done in the Canadian championship and, and he'd been showing some talent just in very, you know, grassroots cars a lot of the time.

Um, and he went to this test day with Subaru and he did really well. Um, and then nothing really come of it. And then 2020 they signed him up to be Travis's factory teammate, um, in the Subaru. And, and at the start, like. He, he, you know, we were always beating him there, you know, he was learning and Travis was his mentor and really coaching him.

And, um, his co-driver couldn't turn up to one day. So I did two days of testing with him and phenomenal driver, great guy. Um, just like Travis, really open to ideas, feedback, no ego. Him and Travis is like two of the biggest people in their sport in the world. And, and no ego is in either of them. They're both just genuine good people.

Mm-hmm. So when they had people get in the car that have more experience like I did with all my rallying, you know, they were both very open to feedback and Brandon was the same. And, and now Brandon, like Travis and I, I mean, we won the last three rallies of the season. Um, and, and we could beat Brandon in, in some stages and not, but like.

He really had our measure at, at most events now, and he developed the new car, which has really suited him the way he drives. He stole him and Travis drive very differently. Um, and so yeah, I mean, he really has come into the sport and, and he's a very hard worker. Like he will study on boards and know every single corner.

And, and it's a real credit to him how hard he works and how much he prepares for rallies. And I see why he's been so successful in mountain biking because of his work ethic and, and how hard he, you know, really puts in at becoming better at what he does. I think it's interesting to have, I mean we've got, you know, your Travis and Brandon that have both come from outside the sport and maybe not the traditional way.

Um, you know, that most people get to rally and yet both of them have seen so, so much success and I think. I do see a lot of similarities, definitely with mountain biking and rally, even though it's like completely different. But it's, there's also so many things that, you know, try that come across and translate, you know, um, reading the terrain and conditions and I think mountain biking being so you have to be so sensitive to whether things are wet or dry and what different dirt that you're on and where you, where there's like a root or a rock or whatever.

And I think also conversely also, uh, motocross as well has a lot of those similarities as well. So it's interesting that two, two guys came from outside the sport and I. Very different sports, but have both been successful. And so it's maybe, I don't know, maybe the rally teams need to start looking, looking at like motocross and Martin Marcus, I, it is true though, in all honesty, even I.

Travis come out here, uh, June or July, he told me if I, I had Cab Kubota sponsorship and he told me if I could get him some machines, he'd come build me a pit bike track. But a couple of downhill mountain bikers also come out, um, that do Red Bull Rampage and some do circus and things. And they were building a downhill jump that goes over my barbed wire fence and lots of other things.

We're out in the mountains and there's lots of fun places. But it was interesting to hear them talk about the dirt and how good the dirt is here. Mm-hmm. And all the different things that, like you are saying. And as rally people wear the same like, oh, we don't want a clay surface. 'cause if it gets wet, the clay is terrible to have to rally on and, you know, um, how loose is it and all that.

And so we were all laughing because we had the mountain bike guys here. We had Travis who has his Moto background and whatever. Uh, Tara Shields, who is a Moto person. So we had sort of this mixture and then we had the rally group. But we all spoke the same lingo and we all had the same way. So I think that your sport, um, Murdo, you know, rally, I honestly do think they, we have a lot of similarities and, and I do think that that's why these two guys have had such great success because of the back as young kids, they were out, you know, on their dirt bikes or on their mountain bike, whatever it is, always reading terrain, jumping, you know, then jumping and having to turn at the same time so you land in the right spot and mm-hmm.

And having to acknowledge that, well, if I go too fast here, then I jump and I land in the wrong spot. So I need to slow down and break to make no. All of that is relevant in your sport and mine. So I think that, you know, it's something that there could be a crossover. May maybe, like you say, they need to go to mountain bike training camps and try and steal the young kids.

Oh man. Um, and uh, I was wondering, I mean, what do you think of the, the, you mentioned the Nitra Circus and obviously rallies being also in X Games and they've also had the rally cross. Well, uh, the, I'm not sure they're still doing that. The rally cross, is that still happening or? No, unfortunately it stopped.

Uh, when did it stop? Halfway through last year. It was Travis's thing. He loved it. But yeah, money sponsors, lack of spectators, those things, unfortunately, let it go. Even Nitro circus, like it ran for many years. It's very popular in Australia and New Zealand. But, you know, the, the crowds haven't been as big, um, lately.

I think that, I think it's hard because you're always pushing the limits. Mm-hmm. And it's, someone have, people have already seen tricks. They're like, well, we saw the same tricks last year. Mm-hmm. But then how far do we push the limits? You know, we've got people that are doing things that we never thought possible.

But that becomes a point where, as a human, we can only do a certain amount of things before, you know, we, we lost someone last year doing something. So it, it's one of those things where, you know, you have all these different sports and, and, and trying to. Make them all run and make them all fun and keep the audience engaged is always a tough thing.

And like you said in the X Games, like up, Alex has, what has he got? One, two, I think he's got three X Games medals up here on the wall, um, which were from him and Ken doing, uh, X Games because they used to do rally as part of it. Colin McCray was there, uh, tan Affairs, Travis, whatever. Um. And then they got rid of rallying it.

But it was cool for Alex, 'cause Alex got to win some X Games medals. Yeah. And a screwdriver. Um, but even X Games, I mean, you know, it, it's tough because X Games was this huge thing and it just doesn't really have the same following as it used to anymore. I think it's always hard to try and think of new ideas and, and get people engaged and keep them coming to sports and you're having to change sports and make them better.

And I mean, as you know, kids these days live on their phone and social media, so a lot of time they get their fixtures sitting on their phone, like seeing someone do some cool thing. Whereas us growing up, we'd love to go watch Nitro and things like that and be blown away with what we just saw in front of us.

Whereas I think today it's really hard because technology and social media really puts things in front of kids so they don't have that same desire to say, Hey mom, nitros in town. Like in a month can we go? You know, that's, and Travis and I talk about this a lot 'cause like he has two young girls and it's like, you know, just that.

And they do cheer, which amazing. But like, you know, always keeping them engaged, keeping them off, you know, social media and keeping them busy and, and that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a real challenge I think, in general these days. Yeah. It's, it's, um, I've actually seen the same thing. Um, I, I mentioned that I had a podcast last week with, with, uh, R Willie and, uh, I said actually the same thing to him.

I, I felt like a few, in the last few years there's been a bit of a dip in the sort of, in certain sports, like in X Games, you know, and the whole thing. Uh, because maybe like back when Travis landed his double back flip and like back in those days, I mean, it was, it was such a huge thing and everyone watched, I think it was because it was so new and so like out there and yeah, as you said, it's sort of hard to keep.

Like keep pushing the limits and, and like at a certain point it's like, where do you go from here? And I feel like people have seen everything to a degree. I mean, obviously there's certain people that are still pushing, but, um, yeah, it is tough. I mean, and I remember it's such a shame that Rally Cross has gone because yeah, I went to watch, uh, they had one in Cape Town in South Africa in 20, I dunno, 20 19, 20 18.

Um, they had a couple, uh, couple years in a row. And man, it was so good. Uh, like I'd never obviously seen, 'cause it, it's kind of brought rally to the people. Yeah. But I think that's obviously the, the one downside, much like downhill mountain biking actually, is that it's, it's hard to be a spectator because you see the car come past, you know, and that's it, you know, and same with downhill.

You see the rider go past and then that's, you know, unless you're watching on screen. So, um, it was cool to have that brought to the people, but I feel like, yeah, I was just curious, um, you know, as to. Maybe why those things have gone away and, and also like they had it next games, as you said. And I remember seeing it there and, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's a pity, but I feel like maybe, I don't know, it's not just rally, I think it's just in general, the whole action sports sort of movement is, I mean, it's, I don't think it's ever gonna go away, but I think it's just maybe not got as much hype as it did maybe 10 years ago.

Yeah, no, I agree. And like back in the day when X Games was huge, it was $50,000 for a gold medal. Like I, I've co driven for Bucky las as well and we're really good friends and his skateboarder and won, I don't know how many medals at X Games. Bill a Bucky one year won four X games, gold medals, $200,000 and wow.

Tacoma or something like a car as well. And he was like, I'm got the car and you know, I, I got the money sort of thing. And then Travis obviously, and, and then, and it was interesting, Travis was telling me at one point he won a gold medal in the X Games and it was 50,000. And Lynn's his wife, 'cause she's a pro skateboarder as a female, won $2,000.

What Medal? That was the difference. Oh, way. Anyway, they, they, they got it to a, the same prize money and stuff. But then Travis said the problem was that, like there just wasn't the sponsors for that and the audience wasn't going to the female sports a lot of time. Yeah. So it wasn't bringing in the money.

So like he said, it's a tough one because. The female athletes are like, well, why do we only wi win this? But if they're not bringing the audience and bringing the money in and then they give them the prize money, the same as these other things, then you just don't have the money. Like, it's just not possible.

So it's interesting, like in sports, like, and, and you know, tennis, I love tennis. I'm a big tennis fan and, and the prize money at the US Open, Australian Open, whatever, it is the same now. But I was at the Australian Open this year watching and it's interesting. It's like, okay, well yes, if we both fill that crowd and we both bring in the same money, will I understand the prize money?

But all of a sudden if people are arguing about things like that and there's not the same coming in, well then it can destroy the sport in some ways. Because if you are now going from 50,000, 2000 to everyone at $50,000, how do you find that money and how do you find more sponsors and things? So I think sometimes we have to be careful that.

We can be our own worst enemy with like expecting things when you know, we have to really look at the data and we have to look at, you know, where are the fans coming, where's the money coming from? How do we keep these sponsors? Which sponsors want this? How do we retain these sponsors? Like, you know what I mean?

Like all these different things like, you know, like, I mean I have a lot of different sponsors that you're always overdelivering and trying to keep them happy so that then next year you have that same sponsorship continue. But I feel like a lot of times these days people don't understand that side of overdelivering and stuff and we are like, Hey, we should get paid the same as you and whatever.

And then it's the sport dies because the sport can isn't sustainable anymore because of that. So I think there's a lot of things that contribute to why we've had these things happen and social media and money and people expecting more I think is definitely being played a part in some of these things as well.

And how is, you know, you've obviously, you've mentioned you've been, you were on, um, the world rally scene for a while before you came to the US and, and what is it like, you know, comparatively between the World Rally and US rally? Uh, I mean in terms of sponsorship money, uh, and that type of thing. It's actually interesting, like, so growing up in Australia, which is like, I don't know, 27 million people, a country the same size as America, but.

Um, population a lot smaller. We obviously don't have as many businesses and things, so trying to find sponsors, um, as a brother. And we were lucky, my brother had won a scholarship, so we were with Pelli Star Driver. Pelli was paying our racing, um, which was a massive thing for us, but we still like started a supporters club, which had, uh, you know, $150,000 that raised us, which.

In the end, I think I had over a thousand people contribute to our racing that year because we had to think outside the box in Australia because there just wasn't, you know, you might be able to get $5,000 here and there, but there wasn't someone saying, oh, here's $50,000. You know what I mean? Like, the sponsors just aren't the same.

So it was interesting when I moved here to America, I moved here in 2012 and like having raced in Australia for many years and knowing how hard it was to find sponsors, even at the world level, um, if we didn't have Perelli sponsoring us, um, like they were, we wouldn't have been there. Um, so it was in, I moved to America and, and co-drivers.

At Alex at my level, like they don't generally have their own personal sponsors. Like it's usually, you know, you're racing with a team like Subaru, um, and Subaru's your sponsor and that's who you're racing with and that's what you do. Um, but it was amazing for Alex and I, I mean, yes, working with Ken and Travis are big names, so that definitely helps because, you know, Travis makes a post and he's got me in it, and then that has a far wider reach of just me, myself.

Um, so then all of a sudden sponsors see me doing something on his social media and then, you know, that, that definitely opens doors for me. So I ha we both Alex and I have been lucky in the fact that because we worked so hard and, and were with people like Ken and Travis, that opened doors for us with, you know, other opportunities because of social media following that both of those drivers had.

So like. You know, Kubota is our biggest personal sponsor, and Kubota is a, a massive company. Um, to think that two co-drivers have a sponsorship through Kubota USA is pretty much unheard of in our sport. Um, so I think that. America's a big country. There's lots of sponsors out there, so it definitely helps us.

If I move back to Australia, it definitely would be a lot harder for me. Um, even though I've built up who I am and people know who I am and things like that, actually trying to get those sponsors is definitely gonna be harder. And, and I'm sure it's the same for you. We have a lot of sponsors that there's no money but it's product and that pro, like we have a meat sponsor and it's amazing, like to have free meats.

I make a lasagna last night and it's elk, you know, minced elk and I'm beautiful lasagna and I didn't have to pay for the meat. Like some people will be like, oh, you don't get money off them. I'm like, you don't understand that. Sponsorship comes in so many ways. And I think that a lot with coaching a lot of young teams and, and with Aus Rally Pro, one big thing I talk to teams about is you have to think outside the box.

Sponsorship money is so hard to come by these days that if you just go to a sponsor and you expect something and you can't give them deliverables, you can't tell 'em what you're gonna do for them. They're never gonna say yes and like start off small, like product and, and, and you know, maybe they'll send you $2,000 in clothing product and then you wear that clothing product and you're posting about and you're tagging about it.

But yes, there's no money, but guess what? Now you don't have to buy hoodies and t-shirts and pants. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I have to sometimes educate those sort of people. 'cause so many of our students are just like, how do we get money to race and how do we do this and that. They're just so focused on that versus thinking about they have to think about what they're gonna do for the sponsor first versus what the sponsor can do for them.

Was, was that like one of the main reasons that you moved, uh, the US Because I know for me, I moved, obviously I moved to to, to Europe and um. It was a game changer for me, uh, in terms of, you know, sponsorship and stuff. It was just coming from South Africa. I mean, little bit like Australia, I guess. You're kind of a little bit out of the way and just not in the thick of it.

And, and there's not a big for, certainly for mountain biking down Gravity, it's not anywhere near as big. So, um, and I'm sure obviously with Rally it's also not as big, so I would be, yeah. Was that sort of a, one of the main factors why you moved to the us? Uh, it's interesting because Rally is bigger in Australia than it is in America.

Um, really? Yes. And the competition. Wow, okay. I didn't know that The top 10 cars are like fighting for it. Like, and there's a lot better cars in Australia. Um, over here. Unfortunately, we virtually have the factory teams and then it's quite a big drop off, which is Subaru. Um, and then a drop off. So, um, what I actually have and was, Alex and I were both doing the world championship and we started dating.

I was living in Australia traveling. Sometimes I would stay in Europe between races. 'cause my brother and I, I know Finland and Germany were always close, so like there was no use flying back to Australia, but between Finland and Germany. 'cause you'd have that bad jet lag and stuff that it was just, you know, ridiculous.

So Alex and I were both doing the world championship and we started dating and then, and then it was like. Okay, so if this is gonna work where we don't only see each other events, well, we're busy anyway and we only see each other at the end of the event, a lot of this is gonna have to move. Um, and he was Ken's co-driver, but also Ken's general manager.

So he, he would like finish a race with Ken, say it was in Germany, and then they'd come back to Park City, Utah and Alex would be managing the shop and general manager of GaN Racing Division or Monster Rally team, whatever it was called at that point in time. So like he, he had the, that job outside of co-driving.

So it wasn't like, I could just say, well, we both have to travel anyway, you should move to Australia. Um, I'd never even been to America. So, um, I, I come over here, I I for a month to see what I thought. Ken and Lucy and their family were amazing because, like I knew that I had to a bit like you had to leave my entire family to make this happen.

Mm-hmm. Um, but everyone was great. And then my brother and I, our success we'd had in the junior world championship led to that 2013. So this is in end of 2012. I come over, I check it out. Well, 2013, I was lucky that Ford USA. Actually got my brother and I to compete in the American Championship in the two wheel drive championship with the goal of, Hey, you guys are gonna come do this and you have to win the two wheel drive championship.

And it was like, okay. So he'd never been to America either and all of a sudden, but for us it was in interesting. It was like a step back in time. American rally was still very old school. Uh, and we were just like, what is going on here? Like they were doing convoy reconnaissance, like one car after and they would do one pass.

And like my brother and I as a one to 10 system, you need two passes of notes. So we're trying to then do notes, like look at notes on video and we were just like, what do we get ourselves into? Like it was so wards. But that was that 2013 year Ken and Alex were racing outright and a Ford. We were in the um, two wheel drive and a Ford.

So we were like teammates. It was amazing. But it was a real eye-opener. But that was when Aus Rally Pro sort of come about my, my training business. 'cause I was like. American rally needs to grow and it needs to develop, and we need to make steps forward. And Alex and I have the knowledge that we can help rallying here, which had, it has grown.

Like the guy who, uh, Preston who runs the championship, he was one of our students. So like, it has grown tenfold now because of our, we've trained 700 people between here, Australia, and New Zealand now. Um, because now people are saying, no, we need two pass reconnaissance. We need this because they've done our training and they understand what's happening everywhere else in the world.

So it is interesting that you would think, uh, America would've been a bigger base in Australia for sure, for sponsors and everything. Yes. But for the actual sport, it was very behind compared to what Australia was and obviously the world championship. So it definitely was a, a, a step back in time to start with.

But now they're, they're doing a great job now, so that's good. Crazy. I, I would've never, never guessed that. I mean, normally everything, you know, the Americans is like, everything's bigger, better, like, um, and it's always the world championship. You're the best in the world, but it's only in America, you know?

Yes, yes. You just won the world championship in whatever it is. And it's like, wait, who did you compete against? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And what we get it, like, you get it and we get it, but when I question my friends here joking, they still look at you like. Yeah, it's the World Championship. And I'm like, but you're only competing against Americans.

Like, I I, I never get it. Like it would be like Australian Rules football saying they just won the world title. Yes. But Australian rules, football's only played in Australia. It's so ridiculous. I I don't understand it honestly. Uh, but it's like every sport, I mean, you know, they, they've got their kind of own thing for everything as well.

You know, it's like Formula One and then you've got indie car racing, you know, it's like, it's always, or you've got the American Motocross series and the, then you've got the World championship, but that excludes America. You know? It's like always very confusing. And even when I won the, the championship with Travis, so many people wrote World Champions, congratulations.

And I'm like. We are American champions, like we're not the world champions. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but, but because they're so used to, that's what they do here. And there's no way Travis and I are world champions. Like Travis is a great driver and everything, but like that next step, like yeah, he'd be top 10, but like he wouldn't need to be there years ago in his twenties, you know, like, and constantly in a rally car, like he'll be here doing something else and here doing something else and whatever, and jump in a rally car eight times a year with barely any training or stuff.

If you're in the world championship, you're in a rally car like 300 days of the year. You know what I mean? Like, it's just a different like way of, so it's, it is an interesting thing that you bring up. It's, um, I was wondering, you mentioned, you obviously chatted a bit about, uh, Ken Block, um, and you know, he's quite a legend in the sport, um, and.

In your opinion, who, who's like the best driver that you have either, you know, been able to work with or, or have seen live? Um, 'cause I know, like, obviously, um, Ken wasn't he necessarily the best driver in the world, but he was incredibly skilled. Um, and he, and he obviously had all those Jim Kana videos and things, which I think put him, also put him on the map and he did something completely different, which was pretty epic.

Um, I wish someone would, you can tell Travis he needs to, he needs to do some, some more of those. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. Who, I mean, what's, what are your thoughts on him? And then also, yeah, uh, sort of in terms of just purely talented drivers that you've, that you've seen. I think the amazing thing with Ken is that like he started DC shoes and that was his focus, that company.

Uh, and he did some motocross and stuff growing up. Uh. And he was really focused on his business and stuff and he went and did a rally school at Team Rally school and he thought, oh, this is a really cool sport. But he was like 35 years old, you know, like, right. Really? Yep. Yep. He did not start rallying until he was a lot older.

There's still time for me. Yeah, a hundred percent. But even Leah, when I cod drove for his daughter, she was 16 and like Ken had passed away at the start of the year and it was a really emotional year. And, and, and the, just before Ken had passed away, he is like, re I, I am putting you in this car for you and Leah to win the two drive championship.

Like you need to mentor and coach her. And, and here the kid is, you know, her dad's passed away. We've got all this pressure of trying to win this championship. And I'm saying to her, Leah, you've got plenty of time. Your dad was 20 years older than you when he started this like. Insane. So it's, it's an interesting question you asked because for me, Sebastian Loeb and Sebastian Oia are the two best that I've ever seen and competed against when I was doing the World Championship.

But as far as an all rounder, like to think that Ken come into this sport at 35 and like he did one race with Alex, and then after that, 'cause Alex was busy and they were still trying to get Alex in the car, he was already a pro. And they finally convinced him. And then Ken did his whole career with Alex and the things that they achieved considering Ken, you know, started in America where they're just handing you notes, you don't do reconnaissance.

There's, there's none of that. Because like I explained before, rallying here was quite backwards. Um, and so they go to the world championship, Ken and Alex in 2011 and 2012, and they have to learn to write notes and all these things. And, and Ken's a fair age at this point, you know what I mean? Like he's not Yeah.

Some 20-year-old learning this new sport and, and he's in a world rally car. Because the guy was so clever with his marketing, like you talked about Jim carna, that he starts DC shoes, which goes crazy, you know? And, and he with a friend and another investor, so there's three of them. They sell that to Quicksilver.

They make amazing money out of that. So now he's got money to go do whatever he wants. And he chooses Rally, which is amazing. He has a, Alex has, I don't know if it's in here, it mightn't be in our trade room or somewhere else. He has a plain white car and it just has like a sort of a gold DC on it. Their suits were playing with Gold DC They didn't have a sponsor, they had nothing.

And Ken built out, he was so clever with his marketing and everything that he built up. Then all of a sudden he is sponsored by Monster. Now he's sponsored by Ford. Like, it's just incredible. And he, he was sponsored by Subaru before that. Like to think that he come in and see there's still time for you.

He come into our sport at the age he did, and he achieved everything he did. So. When he passed away at 55 in, in a snowmobile accident, which, you know, we're all in complete shock. And he was Alex's best friend and driver and, and so good to me and you know, and, and his family and everything that like to think that the things he achieved in that 20 years of when he first did that, you know, training at Team O'Neil Rally School to how creative he was.

I think he was one of the best things that ever happened to our sport. And I know when he was doing the World championship was interesting 'cause his number was always 43. And the FYA and World Championship were adamant that you can't pick your number. Like you just, this is your number you're given. So there's a few photos around our house where Ken doesn't have 43 and I, I think it's interesting 'cause then people started being like, no, Ken Block is 43.

And, and the FYA and the World Championship had to take on these new ideas and become more open to the fact that you've just got this mega superstar. Come to the sport, like take advantage of it. You know what I mean? Like don't, don't, you know, push it away. Like look at Ken's what he's doing and learn from it and harness it and make our sport bigger.

And make the sport grow because someone like Ken Block has just come into the sport and we can really help what we're doing here. He can help with your marketing. He can be really clever with ideas. And now, now the World Rally Championship, all of them picked their number and that was because Ken, all those years ago, and you know, it's, I learned so much from him about, I mean, my social media's not, you know, very big or anything.

Like Ken was 8 million on Instagram, whatever. But little things he'd be like, he'd text me like, re why did you post that at this time? You'll get no likes or anything. Like, no one's awake right now. And like, it was good because like I, that's funny. Well, I posted it now because I had it ready to post and I just posted it, you know what I mean?

Like, whereas he would be like, you're, that's just so dumb. Like, you know, he was great. Like, and, and teaching Alex things like that, like Alex Post on Tuesday morning at this time, because people have caught up on their emails from Monday at work. They're now looking at, you know, social media. 'cause it's Tuesday and they got more time and post it this time because this, this, this, this, you know, all these things, which is why he was so big at what he did and just all and creative the, the different deliveries and suits.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, he was just such an innovator in our sport. And yet, yes, his skills weren't the, the world rally champion of OSHA and Loeb. But yes, he was one of the best drivers in the world, and he was one of the most creative people mm-hmm. That you'll ever come across and meet. So it was a huge loss to our sport when we lost Ken, because, you know, Travis is a great like person as far as, he has a huge amount of fans and people love him, but he doesn't have that same like X factor.

Like they both have X factors, but different, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I, I think that he, he soly missed every day. Alex and I miss him, and, and we wish that, sometimes we laugh that we wish we had just had a whole day to sit down and pick his brain before we lost him. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Because every day he would teach us something that. About social media or just life in general or business things, you know, because he was so good at everything he did that you just, like, if only I had one more day to like, learn from him, you know? And, and he was honestly one of the coolest, most intelligent, clever, you know, um, people I've ever met in my life.

And I'm so lucky to have, you know, called him a friend and got to spend the time with him and, and then work with his daughter. And I think I'll probably work with Leah again. She's off doing Formula One Academy, but she's a really talented young kid. She's only 18 and I think she'll come back to rally at some point again.

Um, you know, circuit is something she's trying out, she's doing really good. But you know, she's a lot like Ken and I think that, you know, her dad taught her a lot of things and I'd be really privileged if I got to work with her again, that's for sure. I think it's, it's definitely, uh, it's very impressive what, what he's done.

And, and for a lot of people, you always get in every sport. I feel like you get. People that change the game to a degree. Um, you know, obviously in every sport you've got your core fans, whether you're a football fan or you're a Formula One fan or rally fan, whatever. Um, but then you get these certain individuals like Ken that do something so out there that you pull in this whole new audience from outside the sport.

Like, to be honest, I mean, growing up I was never a huge rally in South Africa. Like it wasn't something that was, you know, that broadly televised and things. So, um, it wasn't as easily accessible. But then with YouTube, as soon as YouTube came up and then you know, the Jim Carni news and stuff, and then suddenly everyone knew who came block was, even if you weren't a rally fan.

Um, but you were just like, even if you weren't a rat fan, you had to be a fan of what he was doing just because it was like showing you what is possible or what you didn't think was possible in a car. And I think, um, yeah, it's amazing when you get an in individual like that and there have been certain ones in, in various sports over the years, but, um, that was, yeah, pretty impressive to see and to think that he was that much of a genius that when his deal with Ford finished, everyone in the car industry was always under the impression that we could only be aligned with one, one manufacturer.

Like, okay, well you are with Subaru or you are with Ford, or whoever it is, Toyota, whoever it is. Ken was that clever that his contract finishes with Ford and all of a sudden, oh, he's gotta deal with Audi. Oh, he's gotta deal with Hyundai. Oh, he's got, we were just like. How is this possible? But he was so clever with how he did his contracts that, oh, well my Audi deal is this electric car that we've built for this Jim Carner, and you know, oh, but my Hyundai deal is rally and And this deal is something else.

Yeah. Crazy. Travis was saying to me even like. How is this possible? Ree like we're racing against him in 2021. Him and Alex were in the same Subaru as us, and so we were directly racing an interesting concept when you're directly racing your husband. Exactly the same car. That was a really interesting year, that one.

Um, and so Travis is just like, this is mind blowing here he is in a Subaru racing with Subaru over there. He is racing the gym, carna, Audi Electric, whatever. Oh, here he is, got a truck deal for him to tow his trailers with. That's like with Ram or whatever. Like, like to think he's working with five or six manufacturers.

That's unheard of. But he was like the, the, the genius of the motoring industry, you know what I mean? And so like everyone wanted to be involved with Ken Block and so he was just so clever to be able to do that. Like that was unheard of. How do you, you know, be wearing Subaru one day and the next day you are WW you know, in Audi and the next day, like, it's just hard to even comprehend.

But he was that clever that he could make deals that people couldn't say no to, and they all wanted to be on the chem block bandwagon, you know what I mean? And, and hats off to him for everything he was able to do and achieve. And I think he's a great inspiration to many, you know, people out there of what, what's possible if you, if you work hard and you know, you know so many people like, oh, it's okay, he was rich.

That guy started DC shoes from a garage. You know what I mean? He had no family backing or anything. He wasn't rich. He made his money. Like, so, like, it's just, for me, it's an, a complete inspiration of like what is possible, like if you're, if you put your mind to it and have different like ideas and, and dreams and goals and, and he really chased everything.

And we lost him at 55. But boy, he lived a pretty amazing life. Well, he won't be soon forgotten. That's for sure. With all the, all the stuff that's online that, you know, these videos and things are gonna be watched for, for many, many years to come and still, you know, have people telling their grandkids like, oh, there was this amazing guy.

Like crazy stuff. Exactly. And the kids like, go back on YouTube. Whoa. 50 million views. That was a lot. Amazing. And um, you know, talking about like goals and dreams and stuff. What was, so far through your, through your career, what was the, the highlights? If there was one particular thing that's, that stood out or that stands out?

I mean, growing up when I started, I always wanted to be Australian champion. Um mm-hmm. And my brother and I lost. By a couple of points in 2014, I think it was. So I was like, I thought that it was never gonna happen. I was now living in America and things like that. So win, winning a national championship was always a huge motivator for me.

Mm-hmm. Um, so to win the American Championship with Travis in 2021 is definitely, um, the biggest achievement in my career and something that, you know, I'm really proud to have achieved. But I, I'm sure you're the same as me. I, I'm 44 years old, but. My heart and mind still tells me that there's time to be a world champion.

You know what I mean? And, and it's, it's hard in my sport because I can't just work harder and make it happen. Like I need an opportunity to come up with a driver. They need to be English speaking. And most of the world rally drivers right now are not English speaking and I only speak Aussie. So, um, I, I think that, and you, you would be the same once you reach particular goals, you're setting new goals and you have new dreams and ambitions.

And, and so I'm, I'm loving working with Travis. Travis decided this year that where he wanted to take a step back from the top level, so the team's actually building us a production based car. So we won't be, um, in the same car as Brandon this year. We'll be in a more production based car and, and in a different class.

So Travis spoke to me about it. Um, I love working with him so much that we're still sticking together. Um, but like. In my mind and my drop goals and dreams, like little Leah block, I'm still like, maybe she'll come back to rally and we'll chase her world rally goal or dream together. I'm sure that Ken would've loved that rally, was it what he loved the most.

He, he'd be proud of her doing that. But, um, yeah, I think I, I definitely achieved that goal of the national championship, but now I still have goals of being back in the world championship and, and maybe being the first ever female world rally champion could be a pretty cool thing. I don't know if it'll, it, those opportunities will arise, but I'll never give up, that's for sure.

Well, I think you've certainly, I mean, you've got a good base to work from and I mean, you never know. Um, like, I mean the, the one thing about Rally, I guess is, is you can do it, you know, like some sports due to not having a cage around you. You, uh. You maybe can't do it as long, but if all goes well, then you know, you, you should have still quite a lot of time to, to uh, achieve that.

Yeah, I think there's no age limit for a co-driver, so I'm quite lucky. Uh, I think a lot of people say that co-drivers start hitting their best when they're in their forties, so I'm like, yes, Alex is 51. So I'm like, you're aging out like fifties. Some of the best co drivers are in their fifties, so it's interesting.

As long as I keep fit, don't get too many injuries and things like that, I think that. Like the cool thing I, it's hard for mountain biking. Like you say, you get to a certain age and injuries things and, and now your goals and and aspirations have to change at some point. And you're doing this cool podcast now and you start setting yourself different goals and things like that.

Whereas for me, I'm very lucky that at 44, I'm not having to think about. What do I do next? Because I could still be doing this at 60. So I think that that's where the co-driver part of it is lucky. It's just a matter of if your mind and motivation is still there. Mm-hmm. At the moment for me it is, um, you know, maybe I wake up in 12 months time and or maybe I start getting scared in the car.

I've heard a lot of older co-drivers tell me that they never had a problem, and then they started feeling fear. And I think when you start fearing that it's time to hang up the boots, you know what I mean? Because you, you're definitely gonna let that come into your racing, which isn't a good thing. So yes, there's always gonna be some type of fear, but I mean, what if, if you're not doing a good job at it anymore?

So, yeah, I, I'm a bit lucky compared to you and your sport that if I had have been a driver, I think that, that I would've been coming across a few more limits as I got older. But being a co-driver, as long as they, they, you can't be a fat co-driver. So as long as I don't eat too, getting cookies and cakes and, and, uh, and stop training, I'll, I'll, I'll still be fine, but if I can't fit in the seat, I might have been a bit of trouble.

Holy moly. I mean, you're talking about like fear there. I've, I've, I've actually had one personal experience of being a code writer. Not, not a real code driver, but just being a passenger. And I, it, it was, um, in South Africa, uh, so a few years ago I was sponsored by BMW in South Africa and they organized to bring in a DTM car from, from the European championship and they flew it in and they, they had this thing outfitted with a second seat.

They had the, one of the drivers, Tom Bloomquist, I think his name was. Yep. Um, and, uh, yeah, he came and they were doing laps with like, some of the staff and, and sponsored athletes and things. And that was the craziest experience I've ever like, and it was just one lap. And literally I thought I was going to die like in every corner, like you're going like 300 Ks an hour, and then it's like a hip coming up.

And it's like, in your mind, you can't comprehend what is actually happening. It's like you, you, because we think about like our cars that we drive on the road and stuff, and you, and you, you know, you're going that fast and then you just see there's a corner and you're like, there's no way that we are gonna make this corner.

We are going straight into the wall somehow. Like you make it like it's just a. So I can just, that's the closest thing that I could imagine to being in your position. And like, obviously it's different when you and you guys are dealing with trees and mountain passes and like, honestly, I, I can't imagine, I, I.

I was shaking when I got out of the car, so hey and you and, but I bet you weren't moving. I think you do feel safe in the fact that the belts are so good. The seats are so good that a lot of people get out and they're like, I was absolutely shitting myself, but I couldn't believe that I wasn't moving.

Like the seat was doing everything. Yeah. All my insides are moving and everything's like, what is going on? But you are so like, well belted in and that, see, like, I think that that's one of the things that shocks people, people get out of a rally car and they're like, I was petrified. Absolutely petrified.

Like you are talking about like, I couldn't believe that I actually, yeah. Was really safe in there. You are like, yes, things can happen, but like, because they're like you, like they're coming down Trees Cliff. Oh, we're going that way. Oh, you know, but, but you're not moving. So I, I think that it's, it's a weird experience with someone, like you say, when you're first, I can't imagine it anymore 'cause I've been doing it for, so Yeah.

But when we put someone in the car with Travis, we think it's hilarious because they like, they'll get to the end and they don't even, like they, they, they've lost their color. Mm-hmm. They don't even know what to do. And then they'll just be like, re good luck to you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is nuts.

So I, I understand 'cause I've seen so many people get out of the car and, but in all honesty, if you put me on your mountain bike and like I had to sit there and watch some virtual thing, I'd be like, ah. And you'd be like, really? That's fine. So I think it's all about what you're used to, because I'm sure trying to do what you do, I'd be shitting myself 'cause I don't have a cage around me.

So, yeah, it's, it's interesting because it's like this different perception for me, like going down a World Cup, Donald Track is like, I mean, I wouldn't, it's not something, I don't know, it's like you, it's like you're not scared. I mean, obviously, you know, something can happen if you're not paying attention.

Um, but it's, you're so used to it. It's just like, I mean it's, it's kind of like going through the motions and, um, for you guys, I guess it's the same. But then, I mean, I was surprised 'cause I, I mean I'm, I feel like being an somewhat of an extreme sports athlete, I thought it would. Be easier maybe. But, uh, being in that, when I was in that car, I was just like, this is insane.

Like, I don't know, uh, to, it's so different. The, the feeling. And also what was crazy as well is like, I mean, um, you guys must get this as well when the weather, when it's raining and then you hit like water and you feel the car like aqua plane. Yep. And then it's just, it gave me a whole new respect as well to how good like drivers need to be and how good they are at feeling the car.

Um, because it's like, for me, that day he was probably just playing around. Like he wasn't, he wasn't like pushing the limits because I mean, he doesn't wanna risk having an accident with a person in the car. But for me it was just like, this is, this is just next level. So. I, I don't actually know if I'd want to be in a rally club at any point.

Yeah. Like I say, I think that when, when you've worked really hard and you've done all the homework and you've put all the hours into the notes and everything, that you just have such a belief in it. And I'm sure it's the same with your mountain biking. If you've done all the work, you, you've trained hard, you have a belief in what you're doing.

So I think that once you have that belief, whatever sport, and we both do extreme sports, whatever extreme sport it is, well yes, there will be a fear factor that plays into it because that's part of what we're doing and that's half the reason we do it because of the adrenaline it gives us. Um, but at the same time, I couldn't do your sport.

And, and I would have a fear and, and, and you, you maybe couldn't do my sport. So I think that's why we always have a great appreciation for different extreme sports and athletes because, you know, knowing the risks they take and knowing that for you and I, the sport we do, we may not come home from it. You know what I mean?

Like, there may, it may end up in the worst possible fashion, but I think that that also pays a part in, you know, the adrenaline and the high that we get from what we do. Um, you know, other sports, they go and do it and there's never a risk. They, there's never a consequence that could happen. And, and a lot of people don't understand how you do what you do and I do what I do, but I think there's something that's maybe not switched on and no, there's something up here that's different why differently that allows us to do the sports we do, um, at the highest level and come back and do it even after a crash and come back and do it after injury.

Because of the passion and, and the, you know, feeling that it gives us inside that maybe something else can't give us that feeling. So I, I think that we're definitely wired differently and, and all extreme sports people, I think are, are definitely, you know, you, you can either do it or you can't and, and, you know, there's only a certain amount of people in the world that can do it, that's for sure.

What, uh, I mean obviously you're still in the thick of it now, so maybe it's hard to, to imagine, but, um, like your, in terms of what you're gonna do after, after your racing career is the, you know, your training and training program, is that, is that gonna be like your full-time thing then, or is there anything else that's, that's, uh, come up as well that, that might be on the cards?

I mean, I enjoy the motivational speaking stuff as well. So that's been something, and I'm, I'm booked into do a few of those, um, soon, so that's gonna be good. Um, the training, uh, I'm, I'm still a teacher, so I could go back teaching if one, I'm a hairdresser, I don't think I wanna go back. Hairdressing, it doesn't really give, it doesn't really give the thrill I need, um, cutting someone's hair.

But yeah, I think that I'll, I'll just do the sport as long as I can and as long as I'm passionate about it and wanting to work hard enough and put all my time and effort into it, um, giving back to the sport is such a passion and mindset. That's where I love training people. And I think, you know, at 44 I just see my future is co-driving.

And then, you know, even Travis's young daughter who's 11, she keeps the Addie, she's like, Re's gonna be my co-driver. I'm like, Addie, and I've got all these young block and pasta kids that are like. You know, even Alex, they're fighting over Alex and I because that's who their dad's had. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. So I think it's cool because I think that, you know, that keeps me motivated as well. Like even if Travis is not racing, or maybe I've got these young daughters that, that these guys have coming up. So right now I don't really look past what I'm doing. I'm one of those people who sets goals for what I'm currently doing, and then what's after it?

I think that because I'm such a driven person and such a motivated person that I'll, I'll definitely make lots of things happen, um, and make sure I'm always doing something I love for me, like I, I think of, I, yes, I'm working, but I don't think of it as a job because my job is my passion. So when this sport finishes that I love, I'm just gonna continue to make sure whatever job I do, it's my passion and, and I don't feel like I'm going to work every day.

I am actually getting to do what I love every day. And yeah, that's, uh, one of the fortunate things about what. We, I guess, we have been able to do, uh, and to be able to turn your sport and your career. Um, although I don't think it's always as, uh, easy as people maybe think it is, uh, from the outside, you know, they just see sunshine and roses and rainbows and so you're on the podium and obviously it's, yeah.

Uh, it's always hard when you have that conversation because it's like people, if, if you, if you complain about something that's tough or that you struggled with, then people are like, oh yeah, but you know, you guys live the dream. Why are you complaining? You know, it's not a complaint. It's just like, obviously, um, as with any job, even though it's, it's your passionate, it is, at some point it's also a job.

Mm-hmm. I guess it's never perfect. Um, there are things that maybe like for example, when you hit a tree at a hundred k, 180 ks now Yeah. And I think you would've found it too. One of the things that annoys me the most is when people say, you're so lucky. And, uh, yeah. And I see it and we hear, I hear that a lot.

Yeah. And it's, it happens with pro athletes all the time, and we are not lucky. We worked really hard. We've, we've had highs, we've had lows, we've been through a lot, you know, to get where we are. And so it frustrates me that I get that all the time of how lucky I am to be mm-hmm. Travis Pastrana as co-driver, you know what I mean?

And it's like. Well, no, there's no luck in this. It's hard work. You know, it's, it's many hours of, you know, no sleep at races and things to then do the job that I do to be where I am. So there, there's, in any sport, I think that people always say to people how lucky they are, and I don't think luck really pays a part in it.

It's just hard work and just like you had to do in your mountain biking. If, if either of us didn't work hard, we'd never be where we are today. You know, luck. Luck didn't play any part in it. It was all about hard work, motivation and, and getting to where we got. I think when, when they tell you that you got that you're so lucky to be Travis's, uh, code rather than you said, no, no, no, no.

He's lucky to be my driver like that. He's my one time. I said he was my chauffer. Yeah, I mean, the wealthy people, they, they pay people to drive them. So, I mean, like I have, I have a chauffer, um, re there's a question I ask all the guests to end off, um, and, uh, that is, what does the success mean to you? Oh, that's a really good question.

I mean, success is so different for every person. Some pe people, it can be, you know, getting to the end of the day and they've achieved their goals for today. But, um, when I'm as motivated and driven as I can be, success is setting my goals and reaching them. And, and my goals are like, you know, I'm talking about big goals.

I'm not talking about, you know, just day-to-day goals that you set yourself of chores that you need to get done or whatever. So, um, do I feel like I've been successful? Yes. Do I feel like I can have more success? Yes. Um. But you know, success, success is, you know, different for so many people. A person's a billionaire and they're successful because they worked hard in that way.

So that is actually, Delino is a professional rally co-driver for action sports Icon Travis both been success along with her husband Alex. She's driven all over the globe and established herself as one of the best co-driver on the planet. Been working on goal outside the car. The couple have also started Oz Rally Pro.

That success that you have an advanced rally co-driver course to nurture future stars, all of a sudden you've set a new goal. Yeah, you've reached it, you've achieved the success that you were, were hoping for, but then it's quickly forgotten about. And the next goal, and next, you know, where you see success for yourself is now on the horizon.

So. Um, I don't know if I gave you a very good answer for that, but, um, I, I'd like to think that I've been successful, but I definitely want to get a lot more success in my life, that's for sure. Re that will do it. Thank you so much for coming on. This has been, uh, an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on, and I'll look forward to listening to your podcast.

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