The one skill every woman needs to increase her income with Megan Smyth / 83

When you hear the word "sales," you might think of awkward pitches, pushy tactics, or convincing someone to buy something they don't want. But what if selling actually looked more like listening, building relationships, and creating opportunities for yourself?

In this episode, we talk to Megan Smyth, a sales coach and educator who helps female entrepreneurs sell without apology. We talk about why so many women struggle with sales, how our nervous systems shape the way we experience money conversations, and why learning to sell isn't just about earning more — it's about creating more freedom, stability, and confidence in your financial life.

✨ Episode Highlights ✨

• [00:00] How Megan went from copywriting to helping women sell in a way that feels authentic and empowering.
• [05:00] Why sales is one of the most valuable money skills you can build — especially if you work for yourself.
• [08:30] Why you don't need social media to build a successful business, plus alternative marketing strategies that actually work.
• [14:30] What's happening in your brain and body when you face a rejection, income dips, or scary money conversation.
• [19:30] Simple nervous system techniques that can help you feel calmer and more confident before high-pressure conversations.
• [22:00] Why leaving the traditional pre-med path changed Megan’s relationship with money, success, and identity.
• [25:30] How to stop tying your self-worth to your income and start setting financial goals from a place of freedom instead of fear.
• [30:00] Why great salespeople spend far more time listening than talking — and why empathy is your biggest advantage.
• [38:30] How learning to create your own income gives you more stability, confidence, and financial independence over the long term.

✨ Resources ✨

• Listen to Megan's podcast, Blaze
• Learn more about Megan's signature program, Sales Liberation 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Megan Smythe is a sales coach and educator teaching women entrepreneurs to sell without apology. A former pre-med student with a background in neuroscience, she helps coaches and consultants generate consistent sales without pushy tactics or social media. Megan's mission is simple: help women earn more so they can have the impact and independence they deserve.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Some of my favorite parts of this conversation were talking about why feeling calm and confident in sales actually starts with your body, not your brain, how to get out of the money equals identity trap, and why a more empathy-based sales approach doesn't just feel better, it actually works better. Whether you're a freelancer like us or a traditional employee, anyone who wants to feel more confident around earning more money will learn a ton from this episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

And also, we will be on Megan's podcast, Blaze, at the end of the month. So if you like what you hear today, jump over and listen to her podcast, and our episode will be out soon.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Welcome to the Finance Girlies, a podcast for millennial and Gen Z women who are curious about money but have never quite felt at home in traditional finance spaces.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

We are Emily Backdorf and Cassidy Horton, podcast hosts, longtime friends, and finance writers for brands like AOL and Yahoo Finance.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Rather than giving you prescriptive advice, we talk about money the way friends actually do. With stories, questions, and a lot of figuring it out in real time. Megan, thank you so much for joining us on the Finance Girlies podcast. We're so happy to have you. Happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, so you and I met a number of years ago in a copywriting program. And now you teach sales. What was behind that switch and what made you want to teach women how to sell?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yes. So gosh, it feels like another life, even though it wasn't that long ago. But yeah, I started out my business as a copywriter, and that's where you and I met. And so I was a sales copywriter. I was writing sales copies, so like launch campaigns and sales pages for my clients. And like many of us, when we started our business, I wasn't sure who I wanted to work with. And I was happy to take on literally any client that would have me. So I wrote copy for everyone from like B2B, B2C, product-based, service-based, coaches, larger companies, solopreneurs, like the whole gamut of potential clients. And I worked with men and women at the time to women-owned businesses specifically. And I started to notice this trend with my women clients, which was that, you know, as I was writing their copy in my intake questionnaire and on our kickoff call, I'd always ask them about like their voice. Like, you know, what do you want to sound like? What's really important to you? What are your brand values? Things like that. And over and over again, I heard the same things from women. You know, they're like, I want my copy that you're writing for me to sell my stuff, but I don't want to be salesy. I don't want to come off as pushy or, you know, manipulative or like sleazy car salesman vibe. I don't want to brag. That was a thing that got a lot because I would ask them for, you know, social proof and testimonials. And they're like, oh, but I don't want to share that. Like, I don't want to share. Or I'd be like, what makes you qualified to, you know, do this type of work? Like, what's your background and experience? And they would have, you know, like a PhD and 12 certifications. And I've helped my clients generate millions of dollars. And they're like, ooh, but I don't know if I want to like, oh, that's going to be so cringy and braggy to talk about. You know, there's just all this hesitation around sales specifically. And I noticed this trend because it never once came up with my male clients. Not once. In fact, they were usually firmly on the opposite end of the spectrum where they were like adding, you know, things to their sales pages. They're like, you know, rave reviews from clients that didn't exist yet. And I'm like, we can't do that, Steve. So it was a recurring theme that I was seeing this discrepancy. And I loved working these with these women and, you know, kind of like hyping them up around like, you know, it doesn't need to be salesy or pushy or aggressive for it to sell, for it to be effective for you. And I loved writing their copy. But what I loved even more was seeing that mind shift for them, which was, you know, I can sell this in a way that feels good to me and empowering and also good for the people on the other end and for their clients as well. And so I started slowly shifting. It evolved over time from copywriting to more like strategy and consulting work. And then I was doing the strategy and I realized those blocks were still coming up for people. And that was when I shifted into what I do now, which is I say coaching, but it really is still a blend of that strategy piece, the consulting side, and also coaching and you know, moving through some of these blocks in your mindset and your nervous system and like the whole holistic picture around what it takes to actually sell in a way that feels good.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

And so to follow up on that, you say that sales is like one of the most important or the most important skills that business owners need to get good at. And so why is that?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, well, sales, you know, at its most basic element is really just the skill of making money. Like that's what it is, right? And your business needs money to survive. And there's so many entrepreneurs who get into this work because they have a greater sense of mission and purpose. Like they want to help people or they're really passionate about what they do, whether that's, you know, like coaching, healing, writing, whatever it is that they're drawn to, and they just want to do that thing. But in order to do that thing and to keep helping people and living your dream as an entrepreneur, you need to make money, right? You need money to survive. The business needs money to survive and to grow, especially. You can't have one without the other. And I really view sales as like the foundation and it's like oxygen to a fire, right? Like it can't exist without it. It's that baseline. And it may not be your personal favorite thing. Like very few of us start our businesses because we have this passion for sales or marketing. But the moment you sign up to be an entrepreneur, you sign up to be in the business of sales and marketing. And yes, you can, you know, outsource it and get help and all the things, but that is really such an essential skill because if you can't sell your product or service, you can't expect someone else to or AI to these days, right? So that really is crucial because that cash flow that that generates is what gives you the fun money to spend on the things that you really want to do, like, you know, the shiny new website, the team members to support you, and also just to live life comfortably. So it really is, you know, the baseline skill that I see in business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Whenever you hear someone say, I hate selling, whether it's a client, a peer, a friend, how do you like what do you say to them and how do you help them reframe that narrative?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah. Well, first and foremost, I like to ask like what specifically they hate about it and to like dig a little deeper into that because I think this sort of resistance to sales can manifest in different ways for different people. And I hear two things there. The first is like there's some sort of fear. And people are saying, like, I hate it because it's easier to say that than I'm afraid to put myself out there. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm afraid of what people might think of me, right? If you're someone who you feel like sales is pushy or sleazy, underneath that, the deeper layer is I'm afraid of how people are going to interpret me, how I'm coming across. I don't want people to see me as salesy, right? Is what's underneath that. So first I like to dig a little deeper and to see like specifically what's coming up for them. And then also to let them know that, you know, in a lot of cases, people feel that way because they've had a bad sales experience as a buyer. They've experienced those sleazy sales tactics and they don't want that, right? And that's only natural. No one wants to be the pushy used car salesman. And so just giving them, you know, permission and showing them proof that it doesn't have to be that way, right? So the second thing I hear is that they haven't found a method or a strategy that works for them is really what I hear at the end of the day. Because once you find a strategy that works for you, that feels good and to your clients, you don't feel like that anymore. And so oftentimes people they say they hate sales in general, but what they really hate is the way that they've experienced sales in the past, the way they've maybe been taught by other people or pressured to show up in a certain way that is more pushy or aggressive, or that, for example, relies on social media. Like I never sold on social. That's what I teach now is like selling without social. It's totally 100% optional in an online business to be on social media. But a lot of people feel this pressure to show up in a certain way, like I should be doing this, or I have to be doing this, or this person on the internet or this coach told me I had to do it this way, and it doesn't feel good to them. And so that's what they hate is like that one specific method, but it's all being lumped in together.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Yeah. It's also such a good reminder that there are truly so many different ways to like build an online business, to sell in an online business. And if there are these very common strategies that you think of, whenever you think of, oh man, I need to start selling, like you don't have to necessarily prescribe to those if they don't feel true for you.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That was my experience like with sales in the beginning was I was taught that I had to be on social. And that never felt good to me. I hated social media marketing. And I would literally just feel dread at the thought of it. And it wasn't until I discovered, you know, other strategies and started experimenting. I was like, oh, it doesn't actually have to be this way. Sales doesn't have to feel terrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

What are some of the strategies that you recommend or like that you see work for your clients the most that aren't social media?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, we I think over-emphasize social media in this space. Like I said, like it is this like non-negotiable when in the reality there are thousands of ways you could market your business. There were thousands of ways you could market your business before social media ever came on the scene. And so in terms of what works for my clients, like they're out there using dozens of hundreds, if not hundreds, of different strategies. You know, in-person networking and event speaking, retreats, teaching, you know, like teaching guest masterclasses and other people's programs, podcasts interviews, but you know, starting their own long-form content channel like YouTube or podcasts. Substack is really popular right now. I have quite a few clients using that very effectively. Um, and then also just good old-fashioned like relationship building with people and outreach. Like I think people underestimate direct outreach as a strategy. Like it doesn't need to be this big, complicated, like entire sales funnel, right? Like you can just go and connect with people, whether they're people warm leads in your network, potential referral partners, or totally cold leads. Your entire marketing strategy could be as simple as you know, consistently reaching out to new people every week or every month. And that's that, right? And that is very effective. A process I do use specifically for my clients to do that. And a lot of them see really incredible results that way.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yeah. I know even as freelancers, like Emily and I have been freelancing full-time, earning what we feel like is good money for us for years and have never been on social media to try to attract freelance clients. It's for the most part been like cold pitching, warm pitching, or like referrals once you have a good enough client base where word of mouth can kind of spread about you. So that's such a good reminder.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, that was how I built my copywriting freelance business too, was mostly just through cold pitching and warm pitching, like you said, and later referral partnerships. I think there is obviously there's a technique to that, and that is a skill in and of itself of how to do that effectively. Uh, but it's a really great option for most people, I would say is the direct outreach route.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah. It's funny though, because neither of us used social media for our freelance writing businesses. But as soon as we like ever since we started this podcast, every, I don't know, a couple of months we have a conversation like, should we be on social media? And we're not really, but it's something we've we like keep coming back to.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Like, should we? Do we want to? So interesting because I went through this exact same thing. And for me, not being on social media was really like a values-driven decision that I just made. Like for me personally, I was like, I don't like the way this is impacts my life, my you know, quality of life, my mental health, all the things. Like, I wasn't getting any positives out of social media. It was only contributing negatives to my life. So I made the decision to step back from it. And it also wasn't helping my business. Like I said, it's not where my clients were coming from. So I stepped away from Instagram in 2024 in my copywriting business and just wasn't on it for for months and years. And when I started my podcast, I also felt like sort of this pressure come back of like, well, you know, I have guests on and I want to be promoting them and this and that, and kind of getting sucked back into the vortex. And, you know, I had a VA posting for me, so I didn't personally have to be on there. But at a certain point, you know, it just came back to like, what am I really doing? Like, what is the return on investment for my business? And again, is this aligned with my values? And I don't think, you know, it's not right or wrong if someone's listening to this and they love social media marketing. Amazing. Like you do you. Keep doing it, right? If it's it's working for you. But I think we have to be really mindful of that word should in our business and our sales and marketing strategy. That's something I hear all the time from people is I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And you really want to look closely at that because you know, anytime you say that, there's something underneath that again. Um, and that tells me that's not really what's most aligned for that person.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Um, it's kind of the same thing in personal finance. Like anytime you're saying, I should do this, you know, I I should save this much, I should, I shouldn't buy this thing. It's like, what's really behind that?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

It's very like and I also just like to ask the question, like, but do you want to? Like my clients are like, Oh, I should be posting on social media or I should have some presence there to just like quote unquote maintain signs of life, right? And I'm like, but do you want to? Like, and they've never asked themselves a question, like, oh, actually, no, nothing in me wants to do that. And there's this assumption that it's good for our business. And, you know, I understand the concern around that. So in that case, I'm like, well, great, like, show me the receipts then. Like, where's the data? Like, are your clients and leads actually coming from social media? Are you sending traffic back to, you know, your website and your email list or a platform you actually own? Because again, if it's working for you, that's a very different conversation than putting like pouring this time and energy into a platform that's not yielding results. Those are gonna be two different, you know, strategies moving forward. So I think you have to start with the data and also just do that check-in of like, do I even want to be doing this? Because the whole point of being an entrepreneur and having your own business is that you get to make those decisions for yourself. And there's nothing in business you truly like, we use these words have to, right? I have to do this, I have to do that. There's very few things in business you have to do, right? Like you have to pay your taxes. You don't have to be on TikTok. Like those are two different things. So I think it's important to just differentiate between them because you know, the way that I teach is really rooted in science, because that's my background. And from like a psychological point of view, if you hate doing something, or even if you just feel kind of like meh about it, you're never gonna do it consistently. You're never gonna do it effectively or really well. I mean, I was never great at social media marketing or Instagram because I didn't enjoy it. I was inconsistent, it was kind of like half-assed. It felt really forced and unnatural to me. And then it was like, oh, it's just shocking that this isn't generating massive results for my business when, you know, obviously we are much more effective and consistent with things that we truly enjoy. So I think that also needs to be at the heart of anyone's sales and marketing strategy of what do you actually enjoy doing? And let's build a strategy around that rather than trying to impose what someone else tells you you should be doing.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yes. So speaking of your background in neuroscience, what is happening in our brains when like these scary things happen? So like your income dips, you miss out on an opportunity, you like try to negotiate a raise and it doesn't happen, or like you pitch a new client and you get it rejected. Why do we panic? Um, even if we know, like on a logical level, we have money in the bank and we're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah. The short answer is it it, even though it's not logical, you know, the brain isn't logical. The human brain, we all like to think we're these, you know, evolved human beings and we're so logical and analytical. But the reality is the deeper parts of our brain that actually have more control over us, the really old part of our brain from an evolution perspective isn't logical. And the, you know, emotional or instinct-driven brain is much more powerful than the logic analytical driven brain. And so there's two sides to this. There's like what's happening in your brain and what's happening in your body. And they're very related, of course, because you know, the signal is being sent both ways. And the short story is, you know, money is tied to safety for most people. And so, you know, if you, for example, your income dips or a client says no, or you're rejected, and there's especially when it comes to like a sales scenario where money gets involved, you might know logically that, you know, you'll be okay, you have X amount of dollars in the bank, there'll be another client or another opportunity. But your brain, your body is interpreting that as a threat to your safety and to your survival. And so it's literally sending a signal of like, we are under threat, right? Like we need to do something here. And your heart starts racing, you know, your blood is pumping, you're maybe like flush in the face. Like, people have all kinds of different reactions to this. Um, the way that anxiety shows up for a lot of people or stress, it really varies from person to person. In a lot of cases, especially if you tend to be a more anxious or stress-driven person, there's a center in your brain called the amygdala. It's super, super tiny, about the size of an almond, and people call it the fear center of the brain. And so when you're in that scenario, your amygdala gets super activated. It's just sending all these signals to the rest of your body and creating that stress and anxious response. And so, again, you might know logically, and the logical part of your brain knows that, but that older emotion-driven part is what's going to take over in that scenario.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

That makes so much sense. And I can like, when you were talking about like what's happening in your body, like maybe you get flushed and your like heart starts beating. I can like literally remember like initial client discovery call from like, I don't know, probably my first year in business that just like went so poorly and my body was like, like it just that stuck with me.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah. Yeah. I've had those situations too, especially like in the early days. Oh my god, I felt like every sales call was like panic attack waiting to happen. It was like my whole sense of safety and identity just hinged on this client saying yes to me. And that's a really scary place to be. And so if you've ever, you know, experienced that, I think it's important to separate the physical reaction in your body and your nervous system from the, you know, the mindset of it. Cause I think sometimes people, you know, at this point, most of us are familiar with mindset work and you know, questioning limiting beliefs and questioning the fear. And like it's one thing to, you know, before you go into a sales call, just repeat like positive affirmations, like selling a service and like I'm just doing my best. And it doesn't mean anything if this person says no. But that's really difficult to override like the body's reaction, which again is much stronger than that logical part of you that knows better. And I hear that a lot from clients. They're like, I know that this doesn't matter as much as, you know, I'm making it matter, right? Like I know I'll be okay, but it still feels really scary in the body. And so it's important to address that first and kind of calm your body back down and get to that place of safety and you know, regulation in your nervous system before coming back in with like the logical part of you. Because actually, what's happening when your body's in that state, when you're in fight or flight mode, your sympathetic nervous system is activated. And part of that bodily response is that blood flow is literally going away from the logical part of your brain down into your extremities so that you can run away from a threat, the literal flight response. And so without that blood flow to that part of our brain, we can't access critical thinking, creativity, problem solving. That part of your brain literally goes offline. And so there's no chance of, you know, responding to that scenario effectively like a calm, mature adult, right? It's just gonna be this like fear response that comes out. So you have to calm your body down first so that you can, you know, respond in the way that you want to from that maybe more intelligent place.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, I can also think back to so many situations in my life where I'm like, my body is having a much bigger response than my logical brain is telling me that it should have, and yet I don't know how to calm my body down.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah, well, I mean, I'll tell you, there's lots of different ways. And I have some fun facts for this um from back in my pre-med days that we learned when we were studying the nervous system. It's so fascinating. It's like a cheat code to your own body once you learn this step. The simplest and most accessible way for most people is literally just deep breathing. And I know it sounds so cliche and basic, but it really does work. So, you know, inhaling for a count of four and then really slow elongated exhale for like an eight count. You can do that like literally just for two minutes, you start to bring your body back into the parasympathetic state, which is rest and digest and much calmer and get some of that blood flow back. So that is the simplest one, but there's all kinds of, you know, other fun alternatives that can also activate that slow down, more calm state. Um, my personal favorite is putting something cold on the back of your neck that actually simulates your vagus nerve, which runs down the back of your neck and controls that parasympathetic nervous system. So that's a really like quick and easy hack for people too. It's like cold face cloth or ice cube on the back of your neck can bring you right out of it.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Okay. Thank you for those. I will be putting those in my back pocket.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, a little bodily cheat code for you know, before your next sales call or in that stressful situation in general.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

I know, I know. Yeah, those are such good things to know. I I remember especially in my first year of business, it's like if I had a discovery call that day, as soon as I was going to sleep dreading it, I was waking up dreading it, feeling so nervous before, and like an emotional just like wave of come down afterward. Like there's nothing else I can do today. My body was just fighters, yeah, for like this 15-minute phone call.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I know. It's so and again, like part of us is like, this is ridiculous. Why am I reacting this way? But it's like it's real. So you want to like, I think the worst thing you can do is kind of like, you know, just ignore it and hope that it goes away, right? Like, you want to actually address it and give your body the chance to like feel whatever it wants to feel and work through that and like move that sort of fight or flight energy through your body. And you know, when I teach sales calls particular, I teach like the the hype phase beforehand. So you go into it feeling really calm, really good, regulated, but also like excited and like that confidence feeling of you've got this. And then also the post-call phase is equally important and to just like check back in with yourself. Um, because I think a lot of people like, you know, we just go on about your day and they just jump on a sales call. And it's like it's really does take some effort to kind of switch states like that and get into that really like positive mindset and also feeling good in your body before and after.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, speaking of your neuroscience background, it is so evident that you are incredibly smart. And I'm enjoying hearing all of these tips and things. I do not have a science background, so I'm like, Megan is so intelligent. You were on a pre pet a pre. Pre-med path before you switched into entrepreneurship. So, how did leaving like a more quote unquote socially approved version of success affect like your beliefs on stability or money or like what having a real career is supposed to look like?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah. So, uh, like you said, I was studying pre-med and I was so certain I was gonna be a doctor. Like that was the path for me. I was so set on it. And by my third year, when my friends were writing the MCAT, like the admission test for med school, I had decided to not just not apply and not write the test, but I booked a one-way ticket to Southeast Asia for three months, went backpacking with my sister and announced to my family, like, I'm not gonna go to med school and I'm actually gonna start an online business writing, which as you can imagine, they were thrilled by. I did end up going back at, you know, I finished that degree and I loved what I studied. Like part of me still, you know, you can probably tell when I talk about it. I do love this stuff. Like I'm still fascinated by it and interested in it. I just decided it wasn't, I didn't want it to be my whole life in the way that it would have if I had gone down that path and I had other interests that I wanted to explore. And that's why I ended up starting my business. But I did have this, you know, pressure because I had, I was on this path to success. And it was very clearly laid out for me. And the program that I was in um was quite exclusive. And pretty much everyone who went through this undergrad program, they got into med school. It was like a fast-tracked program, like, you know, almost 100% acceptance rate from this undergrad to the top med schools in the country. I could have gone after like just three years and been a doctor by, you know, 23 or something ridiculous. And so I also I will specify that I have a late birthday and I started university at 17. So it it would have still been a decent amount of time. But the point was like I had this path laid out and I felt like I had to really justify leaving it because I was like, I was so lucky to even be, you know, given this opportunity to be like in this program in the first place. And so many people would have like killed to have been like where I was and have all these doors open to them. And I was basically just saying no thanks. And so I felt some guilt around that. I felt guilt around like, you know, being able to provide for my family if I had gone down this other path and you know, that stability and just all of it. And so I did put this pressure on myself. It was totally self-imposed. My family was not, you know, my family was very supportive. It was 100% self-imposed on me that, you know, I had planned to be a trauma surgeon and I knew how much a trauma surgeon makes. And I was like, well, I need to make that amount or more in my business and working like half the hours. Like that was the goal I set for myself, totally arbitrarily. But I did put so much pressure on myself, especially in like the early years of my business, of like, I have to be successful. There is no other alternative. I will accept no other alternative. I need to make this work and I need to sort of prove to people and to myself that I made the right call going down this alternative path. So yeah, that definitely impacted my own relationship with selling the first couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Wow. And how like a few years out, many years out, how how do you feel about the transition? Like, were you able to hit some of those arbitrary goals or have you changed your mindset around whether you need to hit the yes, I have.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

I I mean I've I've hit the goals, but at the same time, it's it's an interesting relationship in that when I first started, I felt like I needed to. There was this attachment to it. Like I need to make this amount of money or I won't be okay. And that's not really a healthy mindset to have. Like I it was so wrapped up in my identity, the amount of money that I was making or how good I was at sales. And so I've really learned to let that go and detach from the outcome. And so now when I set goals, it's from more of a relaxed point of view of like, well, this would be fun. Like that's something I want, but I don't need it. Like I'm okay without it. And I think that is the most powerful place to come from, especially in sales, is that sense of detachment because too often we get in this trap of I need this client, I need to hit this number. And I think just coming back to like, you know, your own sense of being okay with or without it, and knowing, you know, your identity is so much more than that, and having faith in yourself, it's a very different place to come from of like, yeah, I want this opportunity, like it would be really fun, it would be great to hit that goal, whatever, but I don't need it. Like, I'll be okay either way, regardless. Uh, so that has definitely shifted for me over the years.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

You are, I feel like you were speaking to my soul right now. That feels so relatable to me because I, the last time I had therapy, I was talking to my therapist about why do I find so much of my identity and like how much money I'm able to earn for myself when truly it doesn't matter. Like I have a cash cushion built up. Like I have invested plenty of money for my age to like get to traditional retirement age and be okay. Like I have all of these systems of like quote unquote protection in place, and yet I still feel like if I don't earn X amount of money, which tends to be an arbitrary number in my head, then like I have somehow failed like as a person.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah. I mean, first of all, I want to normalize that because I think a lot of people listening will relate to that. And I mean, it's not your fault, right? Or anyone's fault. It's that is the way society conditions us in a lot of ways. Right. But it's this never ending like or ever-moving goalposts, right? Like, I don't know about you, but all I wanted when I first started my business was to hit six figures. That was like the mythical milestone. Oh, if I could just make six figures, then I'd be successful, then it would feel okay, then it would feel like enough. And then what happens? You hit six figures and you're like, great, let's hit 250 or whatever the next milestone is. You don't even pause and it just keeps going and going. And so that was really actually around the time I hit six figures was when I started to really slow down and question that and be like, are you actually enjoying the journey? Are you setting these goals because you want to or because you feel like you you have to? Because if that's the case, like, you know, we're we're outsourcing our sense of safety, of enough, of being okay, of being confident and worthy and all this. We're outsourcing that and we're putting it on the money, on the goal, on our external circumstances, which is a very different place to be than insourcing it and that coming from within you of knowing, like, I'm okay, I'm good, I've I've got myself. Like, I don't need this external thing to feel okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah. I love the approach of just being like, does this feel fun? Does this feel exciting? And letting that kind of be your internal compass for what you say yes to and what you don't.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah, because there really is no amount of money. Like we all think, you know, oh, if I million dollars, like I'd feel so much better. But there are people out there with billions who aren't happy, who don't feel like it's enough, who are still stressed and worried. Like there's people making way more money than I am out there who are stressed about their income and they don't feel like it's enough, right? Like, so it's not the amount, it's not the number in the spreadsheet or or in the bank. Like that really does have to come from you.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Speaking of, I just want to tell a quick story. I don't know. A couple of weeks ago, Cassidy and I were talking about she had a really big workload for the month and was like, Why why do I do this to myself? Like, I took on too much work, but I'm making all this money. And so we were kind of talking about like, okay, how much is enough? Like, how much do you really need? And she like came up with this number, and I I think I was like, Okay, well then that's your number. Once you like hit that, then maybe you can say no to future assignments. And she was like, But actually let's add let's add like 2k to that. A little buffer room. So funny. Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Okay, so I'm really excited to ask you this question because I just feel like this is me. So you say people don't have to become a different person to sell well. And it's actually the opposite, but I don't know. Someone like me, I'm like, yeah, but I I can't do sales, I can't negotiate, I can't earn more. So like so, watch this, Emily.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Why do you feel like you tell me why do you feel like someone like you? What does that mean? Like what traits specifically are you thinking of? Like, I I've never really thought about this. Okay, let me think. Sorry, I've turned the tables now I'm interviewing.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

No, it's good, it's good. I don't think I'm a particularly assertive person in my mind, like selling is like like what we were talking about at the beginning. It's like an assertive thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

So would you say how would you describe yourself then? Do you feel like you're more like introverted? Are you better at listening? Like what what comes up? How would you describe your style?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah, more introverted. Yeah, I think of myself as like a really good listener and like not, I don't know. I'm I'm like not happy about saying this, but like I'm I'm not someone who's like, this is what I need, this is what I want, you know, in a way that I think a lot of women probably can relate to, but like and I don't think is healthy, but I think I relate to that too.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah. So less assertive, more kind of open or accommodating to to other people. Yeah. Sounds like mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, good at putting other people's needs first, empathetic, uh, good lister. Okay, we're gonna have lots of good stuff here. So what if I told you that sales is actually 90% listing? That's the most essential skill you could have to be effective in sales is listening. Because at the end of the day, what anyone, any human being wants, regardless of who you're selling to, what the market is, what the situation is, all people really want at the end of the day is to feel seen and heard. And if you can master the skill of effective listing, which it sounds like you already have, you are 90% of the way there. And as far as being, you know, assertive or aggressive, let me just ask you this. Do you love when salespeople are really aggressive and assertive with you? Is that effective for you?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

No, I hate it. So what does that tell you? It's it's not a good strategy. It's probably for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if you think about like a positive sales experience you've had in the past, I don't know, like a business mentor or coach or like a retreat or something fun you invested in, if someone was kind of quote unquote selling you on that. I'm curious, like if you felt like they were really aggressive and assertive, or if you felt more like they were really seeing and hearing you and you just vibed with them because they listened.

unknown 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

The like it was a two-way conversation, right? Like that openness, that accommodation, the valuing of relationships and actually, you know, speaking to and hearing the person in front of you instead of trying to impose your opinion. Because I'll tell you this as well, you know, like I said, everyone wants to feel seen and heard. No one likes to be told what to do. Even people who are generally people pleasers and polite, that doesn't feel good. That activates like a sort of a defensiveness in our brains. And so if you come out of the gate telling people what they should do and why they should invest with you and why your offer is so amazing, that naturally makes people lean back, as opposed to, you know, getting on a call with someone, for instance, and being like, tell me about what's going on with you. Like, you know, why'd you book this call? What problems, frustrations are you dealing with? Like, how's that showing up for you? How's that going? What are you hoping to achieve? Asking great questions, being a good listener. 90, 95% of sales. Does that change anything for you? Yeah, I mean, that sounds way better.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

I'm curious, like, I think I sales is like a part of like business ownership that I kind of have been like, you know, shied away from. And so it's not something I've like studied, learned about like I have with other topics. Is that primarily how sales is taught? Or like, why does it have such a bad reputation? Bad reputation.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah. Do you know why? I I will say it's becoming more popular to talk about this. There's a lot of women in this space who are doing really great work and teaching sales from that empathy-driven perspective, like I talked about. But I would say it's still a minority. Like, I do still see, unfortunately, a lot of the really pushy or sleazy tactics out there. And I have clients come to me and they'll say, like, I don't like selling. I'm like, tell me why. Like, tell me about your process and what you're doing now and how it's working for you. And they're like, Well, my last coach told me like when I'm on a sales call with someone, I have to get their credit card information like while I'm on a call. And I'm like, Well, I would hate that too. That feels super gross. Like, so they're they just still float around out there. It's coming more into balance with um with this approach, but it's still in a minority, I would say, which is why I'm so passionate about teaching it and about sharing like my systems and processes and frameworks with people, because I can see like the shift and like the light in their eyes when I'm like, oh no, you don't have to do that. Like, you can do it this other way. You can actually just lead with like generosity, connection, building relationships, talking to people. You don't have to manipulate anyone into buying from you. And I think unfortunately, that is the way it's it's still taught. And we're getting there. I think it's shifting over time because the other like important thing I think worth mentioning is like not only are those tactics, you know, unethical and manipulative and they don't feel good, but they're also not effective. And we're seeing that especially as the market changes and shifts these days, that people are really tired of being sold to in that way. And so not only is leading with this like empathy and and listening approach and really like human-centered sales, like not only does that feel better to you and it's more ethical for your clients, but it is also going to be more effective.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah. Yeah. This reminds me last year, last April, I purchased a vehicle and I was dreading going to the car dealership because you you picture every salesperson being super pushy and all of this stuff. And I was meeting with a man, and you know, so I like had all of these assumptions going about how he's gonna view me, what he's gonna say, all of this stuff. And he was like the most nonchalant salesperson I've ever had. Like I told him from the get-go, I was like, I just want to test drive this car, like I'm not looking to buy anything today. And he was like, he was like, Don't you even worry. Like, here are the keys. I'm not even gonna hop in the car with you while you test drive it. Like, just go test drive it. You don't have to do anything else. Like, just come give me the keys and you can leave. It's totally fine. And then I test drove it, I came back in and he was like, I know that you're not interested in in buying this car today, but like you told me that you were also interested in this other vehicle too. So I just like printed off some information to give to you. Like you can just take it with you as you like go and continue comparing vehicles. And he was like, But if you are interested in like maybe just seeing like what a monthly payment would be for this car, like depending on how much you want to put down, like I could give you those numbers so you also have them as you go out and compare things. He was like, Truly zero pressure, like whatever you want to do. And I ended up buying a car that day.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

I was just and did that make you more or less likely to trust him and buy from him, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Well, yeah, it did, it felt so low pressure the entire time that I kept being like, Well, uh, yeah, like I'll keep going. And at the end of the process, I was like, this could truly just be his sales tactic, and he knows that this is effective and this is what works, and maybe he's not actually chill and nonchalant inside, but I was like, whatever. It was a pleasant experience for me. And I have zero regrets. I did I laugh at that experience. I don't know, was good. I'm like, it was effective on me, like you not being pushy and aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So yeah, which I keep thinking of like an alternative example when the opposite happened. This one time I thought I was getting on a just like a coffee chat with somebody who I connected with on LinkedIn. Quickly, like realized she was trying to sell me like a $12,000 sales program. And I was like, I just could not get off that call soon enough. And afterward, I just felt so like just like like I don't know, inside and taken advantage of it. And like it was hilarious that she was selling a sales program because it was like, who does that work on? You know, that that like hyper, like like I didn't even know it was a sales call, you know?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

It's just yeah, yeah. I've had that happen to me too. Do you ever get off a call? So and you're like, I feel like I need to like shower. I just feel like dirty. Like it's weird. I I don't like that. But it's funny. I love both of those examples because one of the very first exercises I take people through in my program sales liberation, the first you know, module is really that foundational like identity and mindset shift around sales and how to do this in a way that feels good. And one of the exercises to take people through is I have them map out examples of good buying experiences and bad buying experiences. And then just notice like what was different and like what did that person do or not do that either made you comfortable and really like excited to buy from them or the opposite, right? And so just taking note of like what specifically were they doing, um, and you know, like what values came through in either experience, like what was it that made you buy from someone and feel good about it versus a buying experience that really did not feel good, whether you said yes or no, right? Like you're in that sales experience. And so I think that's worth noting is like if you've ever had one of those really terrible experiences, I'm like, great, now you have a roadmap of what not to do. Like you have all of these specific examples of like, I'm never doing that. That feels gross.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Okay. The very last question we want to ask you before you wrap up, you connect sales, or we've heard you connect sales to financial independence and rewriting what power looks like. And so, what kind of power do women gain when they stop waiting to be discovered, approved, referred, or picked and learn how to create income directly?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

So I view sales, like I said, as a skill of making money and taking control of your own income in business. And that's why it's so essential because of course you can be in business and you know, you can have word of mouth and referrals and things like that come in. But if you're reliant on that, that is ultimately outside of your control, right? Like you can ask people for referrals, you can hope they send people your way, but aside from sending a couple of polite emails, there's not a whole lot of control there. And your income is really like at the mercy of something you can't control, which is other people. It's another reason why I'm not big on social media, because that is largely outside of your control too. So for me, you know, learning like the skill set of selling is really what I like to, you know, equip my clients with, as opposed to, you know, like what's trending on social media or like, you know, the latest webinar funnel or whatever it is. Like I have all the templates and strategies and resources for them, but it's about that deeper underlying skill of knowing how to communicate your value, handle objections, run your sales calls with confidence, like just knowing how to sell and market your services effectively is a skill that will continue to serve you no matter how, you know, the market shifts, the economy changes over time. But if you have that skill, you know how to make money, how to create an income for yourself. And that really is like true power to be able to, you know, there's nothing more powerful than a woman who makes her own money and is in charge of that. That's what gives you the power to provide for yourself and your family, to, you know, leave that toxic job or relationship, to move cities, to travel, to just do the things that you want to do. Like that is real freedom and power. And learning how to sell is what essentially, you know, opens that door to you of being in control of your own income. You know, I always think of the analogy of you guys have heard this before, like, you know, if you teach or you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, but you teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. I like to think of it as you give one sale to a woman and she's fed for a day, but you teach her a salad, she can feed herself and her family for a lifetime. And so for me, that is really what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

I love it, and I feel like that is the crux of it all. It's the thing that I have personally come back to again and again since being self-employed. Like how to get that control over your income because yeah, it can feel great like one month or you know, one year when things are just happening, and it's not like you're doing good work, but it's not like because you're in control of everything. It's just how it is, and then the next year things change. And it really is all about like what you said, getting control over your income and your ability to make money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

So I think well, there's this this myth that working for yourself needs to be like inherently unstable and and totally unpredictable, and like you're at the mercy of all these factors and things can change so quickly. And absolutely, like, you know, you're never gonna make like when people say like consistent 10k months or consistent 20k months, whatever. It's like you're never gonna make the same amount of money month to month, exactly, like to the dollar, even if that's generally your baseline. Like it's never gonna be consistent in that way. But it's not true that we need to be like stuck in this feast or famine cycle. There are systems you can put in place, sales systems, lead generation systems, and then also having that skill so that if you do lose a client or things slow down, whatever happens, you know exactly what you need to do to go out and get another one.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

You have the confidence and the skill set to go do it. Yeah, there have been several times, I think in both of our businesses, but I'll just speak to mine where things have shifted for whatever reason, and I feel like I've lost the bulk of all of my clients. I can think of two times in particular. One was the beginning of 2023 and a lot of like layoffs and stuff were happening in the US. And then another time was just like over the past maybe six months to a year, like as more people started experimenting with AI and less people were wanting to hire actual copywriters. And in both of those instances, there was like a few-month period where I was like, well, this is just the state of how things are at the moment. Like maybe things will flip around. And then both times I reached a point where I was like, no, actually, you have the skills to go out and find new clients. Like you should just set aside, should, but like maybe it's time to set aside some time to go find new clients instead of just hoping that they'll find you. Yeah, hoping is always a dangerous strategy, right? Yeah, I know, I know. And both times, like the the amount of effort I had to put in to like get new clients and build my business back up. I'm just like shocked at how the like the work is out there. Sometimes you just want to feel like it's always out there, no matter what the state of the of your industry is at the moment or the state of the environment, like these opportunities. Yeah, yeah. And I'm always reminding myself that like you I truly only need like five to ten clients max to like make the income that I want to be earning. And I can find five to ten clients to give me that work and pay me the rates that I need to be paid. And so, like the work is out there no matter what. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

I I've been there too, and that was actually you know what sparked the shift for me into teaching sales later on. Was I went there too, and I you mentioned the early stages of 2023, which I think is exactly when it was for me. I actually lost all of my copywriting clients, every single one within one week. So I was, you know, I was in Portugal at the time, I was traveling, and I remember just like laying on the floor of my Airbnb and being like, this is it. Like, it's all over. Like it was nice while it lasted. This was a fun ride, but like this is the end of the line for me. Yeah. And that was back when I was still trying to like show up on Instagram and everything. And the thought of like posting on Instagram being like, does anyone want to hire me? Felt so terrible that I started, you know, looking into alternatives. And like I said, for me, part of that was direct outreach and but just learning that skill of selling. Because up until then, I had been reactive mode. I had been totally at the mercy of referrals and word of mouth. And I had never actually gotten proactive and built a proper sales system. And that is what had kept me in feast or famine. And that's why that's now what I teach women to do is to build that repeatable system so that you always know, like I said, you have your own back. Like there are elites coming in, there are clients coming in consistently. That doesn't happen by accident. That comes from you building it and taking ownership of that. You know, one of my clients used this analogy that she used to feel like she was sitting in a house just waiting for people to come and ring the doorbell and ask to work with her. And she started working with me. And she was like, I realized, you know, at any point, I could just go up to the front door and walk outside. And all these people were waiting to hire me. I had no idea. And you know, I was just sitting in my house waiting for them to come to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

That's such a good visual. And it's relatable too. I think our listeners are going to be. Is there anything like me and Cassidy after hearing this conversation, they're gonna be like, I want to learn everything about sales. Teach me to sell. So where can people learn more about sales and connect with you online?

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Yes. So the best place to learn from me or just come hang out with me online is my podcast where I just interviewed Emily and Cassidy and we had an awesome conversation. The podcast is called Blaze, and I'm sure we can link that conversation in the show notes. That is my sort of primary platform where I hang out because, like I said, I'm just not on social. Um, although you can always send me an email or, you know, if you're interested in working with me, I work with a very small number of one-on-one clients, but the best place to learn uh in higher proximity would be my group program. So that's sales liberation, as I mentioned. And you get access to not only, you know, the course content, which is how to build your repeatable sales system step by step in the entire resource vault of like literally every sales process framework system you could ever need for life for your entire business. Um and marketing and lead gen too, right? It's all related. Uh, but you also get access to me with live coaching, real-time feedback, personalized copy audits, and a really awesome community of other women who are also working on building this skill all together.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

So yeah, amazing. Sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Thank you, Megan. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

That's a wrap on another episode of the Finance Girlies podcast. Nothing in this episode is meant to be taken as financial advice.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Please do your own research and talk to a professional if you need advice. If you like this episode, consider leaving a review. Better yet, send the show to a friend who might enjoy it too. Love ya. Bye. I nailed it.