The Ritual Nurse
Join our journey where nurses learn to heal themselves first, combining holistic rituals with practical strategies to thrive in their demanding careers. We mix that with stories and humor in first of its kind short form, perfect for nurses busy schedules. Each episode has our favorite coffee and crystals segment that everyone raves about. Curl up with your cat, or pop an earbud in during a ten minute break, and during the commute - this podcast is exactly what you need.
TLDR: This podcast offers short, impactful episodes filled with transformative tools, real-life stories, and a touch of magic to help nurses reclaim their well-being.
The Ritual Nurse
Culture Cure: HR does WHAT?
TXT us your feedback!! <3 your fayce!
Walking into HR can feel like stepping into the unknown. For many nurses, it is a place of fear, frustration, and unanswered questions. What does HR really do? How much power do they actually have? And how can nurses really get what they need in those conversations?
In this episode of The Ritual Nurse Podcast, Riva sits down with her friend Brynnen, an HR professional who shares what it looks like from the other side of the door. Together, they break down myths, explore when to bring issues forward, and talk about how to navigate the power dynamics that can leave nurses feeling powerless. This episode is the real life highlights of how the skills in our last episode are so vital to protecting your peace and protecting your space.
Brynnen is not only an experienced HR professional but also a BookTok and Bookstagram favorite, known for her thoughtful reviews and online presence at @librarybrynn. She is just beginning to bring her voice to TikTok, and this conversation shows exactly why her perspective resonates. She's real, honest, funny, and doesn't BS.
This conversation goes deeper than policy. Brynnen brings honesty, humanity, and insight into how HR works, what nurses should know before filing a complaint, and how to walk into meetings with confidence and clarity. To close, she leads our Coffee, Crystals, and Divination segment with a live card pull, blending professional truth with ritual wisdom.
If you have HR questions... go smash that fan mail link at the top of the show notes and send em in!!! It's totally anonymous, and you can include (or not bestie) whatever details you feel like. Brynnen will be back for a part two later in the season and would love to answer questions on our socials and in her next episode!
In this episode you will learn:
- What HR can and cannot do in response to complaints
- When it is appropriate to involve HR and what documentation to bring
- How to protect yourself in HR conversations with clarity and boundaries
- Why understanding HR’s pressures makes the process less intimidating
Resources and Links
- Blog post with full references: The Culture Cure
- Shop Ritual Nurse tools and downloads: TCTH.org
- Connect with Riva and The Code Team: hello@ritualnurse.com
- Connect with Brynnen: @librarybrynn (all the BookTok/Bookstagram goodness)
Hey! Make sure you subscribe to stay connected. Love a nurse? Who doesn't! Share with all the nurses you know. The more we reach, the more we help. We feel like no one deserves center stage focus more than nurses and our mission is to reach the millions of superstars out there. We'd love to hear your stories, your adventures, your wins, and especially your needs and questions! Email us at hello@ritualnurse (dot) com. Also, you can send us fan mail! Use the link at the beginning of the show notes. The Ritual Nurse Podcast is part of The Code Team educational platform.
Follow for resources, classes, blogs, and podcast info:
- Instagram & TikTok: @ritualnurse
- Shop: https://bit.ly/RitualNurse
- Website: tcth.org
Love your FAYCES!
Welcome back to the Ritual Nurse Podcast. I'm your host, reba, and this is our Behind the HR Door Part 1, episode. Last podcast we talked about the culture cure, using those two rise skills role clarity and peace that help us survive and push back in toxic workplace cultures. But what about when you've done all of that and you're still stuck, when the problem is bigger than one conversation and you have no choice but to step into HR's office? That's where today's episode comes in. I'm joined by my friend Brennan, an HR executive who has seen the good, the bad and the ugly from the other side of that door. Together we're going to break down myths, talk about when to involve HR and give you tools to navigate the system without losing yourself in it. Brennan, welcome to the Ritual Nurse. Can you start us off by introducing yourself and sharing a little about your HR experience?
Speaker 2:Hi, reva, hi. We've already warned that we are going to be a whistling tea kettle today, so that'll be-. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely think we're going to hit tea kettle status especially with our sassy tarot and oracle cards.
Speaker 2:I am Brennan. I'm a HR executive, as Revis stated. I actually started in healthcare HR in 2005. So 20 years ago I'm old.
Speaker 1:I literally was just thinking in my head she's not old enough.
Speaker 2:I am, 20 years ago, started in healthcare, hr and have worked the majority of my career in healthcare and have, like she said, seen the good, the bad and the super ugly from behind the door yeah, and sometimes not behind the door, yeah.
Speaker 1:You just took the thought right out of my head. I'm like, oh, I can think of a few times in conference rooms.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, uh-huh Always, brennan and I have had the epic experiences of working in more than one healthcare facility together, in different admin and executive roles and different types of environments. I would say that both the first place, I don't think we overlapped. We may have, but I don't think we knew it. The second and the third were both high stress, but in different. Very high stress, yes, but in different worlds. Yes, if you will, yep, and yeah, I, oh my yes.
Speaker 1:So what we're really kind of looking at on the heels of last podcast episode talking about the skill sets, is that nurses usually will walk into HR with a ton of fear and baggage, a lot of misconceptions, in fact, I think, primarily misconceptions. You know, we've heard the horror stories. Maybe we've lived the horror stories when it comes to nursing culture, and I don't mean with HR, I mean in terms of bullying, which is an epidemic in nursing culture and also very, very hard to address. People that feel silenced, they feel ignored, sometimes they feel punished even for speaking up. From your perspective, though, what do nurses think HR does, and what does HR actually do?
Speaker 2:nurses think hr does and what does hr actually do? So I think, from my perspective my experience breaking through a few different health systems, culture-wise to try and help eliminate some of the stigma around hr or admin the big bad admin in facilities, I think that and this is actually true in non-healthcare as well they think that we are we as HR professionals are there to support the company, right Right, and not there for them, right? So I think that is probably a misconception or an assumption that healthcare staff may have.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think that, just like any other admin's leadership, you do have two sections.
Speaker 1:I think you have nursing leadership that are company men. You have, you know, hr people that are the same, and I think it is culturally driven. I think when you have facilities that allow HR professionals to be transparent and administrators that can be transparent, it's a totally different culture because you actually teach people. Because, let's face it, the structure, the policies, the protocols they can't go anywhere Right. If you don't have them, you literally can't operate Right. So the ways that we have to engage with the system, the kind of documentation that we have to have, the way we approach things is oftentimes guided by CMS, standards, policies, protocol, legal situations. We can't veer from those, but it's how we teach people how to engage with the system that either comes across as punitive or not. And I think a lot of that has to do with culture and empowering your administrators and HR professionals to teach people to have transparency, to document effectively, to be able to have a voice and speak up. Yep, we can't do anything if we don't know about it. We can't do anything if we have no documentation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with the perception of HR, I think there's confusion about when HR is looking for documentation or asking about documentation. You know, do you find that more nurses come in. I don't want to say unprepared, that's not the word I'm looking for. I almost kind of feel like I almost kind of feel like we come into HR, not sure how to start the conversation. Yeah, you know. Yeah, what do you think is the primary assumption that you see when the nurse walks in the door for the first time with an issue that they want to bring to you?
Speaker 2:So if somebody is coming in to see me for the first time, typically they don't know what the process is and it's very heightened emotions because they have gotten to a point where it's been so escalated that they feel like they have to come in Right. And so you know, for me, as an HR executive and if you have, if you have a good HR executive yes, the first step should be to listen, yes, right, yes. So listening, asking questions that help flesh out the story of whatever it is the nurse is trying to tell you Right, right, validate, yes, yeah, that sucks, I get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I totally see why you're upset about this. Yeah Right, it yeah. I totally see why you're upset about this. Yeah Right, and really work to listen to what it? Is that they're saying they need, and then that point asking okay, so I hear all these things that you're saying. This is what I'm getting out of what you're saying. Right, what do you want me to do with this?
Speaker 1:Right, and I've heard you ask people that before and it surprises them because, again, in talking about this role, misperception, when you've asked people that they don't know, because I think they don't know how to answer that Like well, I don't know, like your HR, like what can you do with it? Or what do you do with it.
Speaker 2:Right, and if they don't know, then we go through. Okay, so here's our options. Right, I can hear you. You're welcome to come in here anytime. We can always just talk like this, right, right, if you need to come vent. I mean, we've worked together for a long time, you know people just come in and plop on the couch in my office and just be like I just need a quiet space for a minute. Ignore me, and I'm like, okay, and I'll keep typing.
Speaker 1:Right, I keep done on my work.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so it can be that level. It can be listening and validating, and then you've just gotten it off your chest and we can go on about our day. Or it can go through investigatory steps and we can actually put it into a complaint process or a deeper conversation that may involve more people.
Speaker 1:Right, I think. I think that's what's so important is being able to separate the perception from the reality. When we don't know what HR's actual role is, we walk in unprepared and we leave more frustrated than we came in because we don't know what to engage with, because we don't know what to engage with, we don't know how to engage with it and it feels like an unfinished process.
Speaker 1:And that's not a fault of either party. I just think that there's been Engaging with HR. I think is a really empowering tool that, depending on the culture, the health care system that you're in, they're not transparent about it for a reason.
Speaker 1:Not HR not being transparent, I just mean the culture of the health care system itself, because engaging with HR is actually the surefire way to get policies and protocols implemented universally, to get the culture changed, to ferret out pockets of necrosis, if you will, and really clear the air, and for some systems that don't have a progressive culture, they don't want that. So HR, I think, is often portrayed as the big bad guy. I have the luxury of having worked with you, a, because you're a good HR executive who taught me a lot, but also being able to actually see you know, we've created policies together, we've created protocols together. We've looked at how it affects staff, how it affects the culture.
Speaker 1:What isn't working about this one that needs to fix the culture, or hey, are we noticing a pattern about this and why are people afraid to talk about it? What is going on in our situation? That they can't have an open conversation about it? Well, do we always have the answer that they want? No, but can we have an open conversation about it? And I think the first step of understanding what that role is is the most important. Do you think that? How would a nurse approach someone in HR and ask them effectively what their role is, like what you know what I'm saying Like how could nurses that don't work with somebody like you you know they have a separated HR system or just a typical larger healthcare HR system system or just a typical larger healthcare HR system how would nurses start going about engaging and finding out?
Speaker 2:you know what does HR do? How do we work with you? I wish that there were more me's yeah, I really do. I well, and where, where I think we may have intersected but didn't know that we did in that bigger health care system, but it's very different, huge, yeah. And so I think the best approach please, please, don't walk up to an HR person and go what do you do? That's probably not a good start. Why are you even here? Oh Lord, yeah, please don't do that, but you know I would.
Speaker 2:If you really want to know and you really want to engage and you really want to help drive an effective relationship, set a meeting, go in with your hr business partner or your hr manager, your HR director. Don't go to an entry-level HR person, right, right and sit down and say I really want to have a resource Right, it's in the title. I really want to have a resource that I can go to if I need help, right, right. And I would like to get to know you better and have a better understanding of what your department goals are, what you're trying to achieve, so that we can work together to come up with solutions to whatever it is that's happening, and I think that there's a couple more misconceptions.
Speaker 2:One, that most places don't want to have a good workplace culture. They're just like the man and they just want to make money. Right, because healthcare is a money-making business. Most businesses are. Because healthcare is a money-making business. Most businesses are Right. But I think now more organizations understand the need for people focus yes, and they really have good intent. Yes, and very poor execution.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I think we're starting to see a lot more people in decision making roles that do have really good intent. Changing the health care system is kind of like chipping away at mount everest, for the pitchfork yeah so really it's a spork.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it's going to take a lot of us. A lot of the purpose behind the skill sets that I teach is to empower nurses to remain at the bedside so that we can effectively change the things about healthcare systems, especially in this country, that need to be changed. Yeah, we have to be there to do it and I'm not advocating that everyone stay at the bedside. If it's not right for you, then don't Right. If it is, and that's your passion, people should thrive there and in order to do that, we have to be empowered to have productive conversations and engagement. Otherwise we're screaming into the void. Because these systems have been there for decades.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'd say, within probably the past, maybe two to three years since covid kind of broke everything wide open that we've seen a push for changes in actual workplace culture. Yep, not just what's the word I'm looking for, not just the stereotypical Environment. I don't know, I don't know how to phrase what I'm saying Pizza party. Yeah, not just the stereotypical environment. I don't know, I don't know how to phrase what I'm saying Pizza party. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God no more pizza. Have a pizza party and a tote bag.
Speaker 1:No. However, doing arts and crafts for months on end is also not advised. I'm never doing that again. Let's kind of get into the nuts and bolts. Say I'm a nurse dealing with bullying on my unit. One of the number one things that is driving nurses out of nursing is bullying in our own culture. Or we have charges or admins that keep dumping responsibilities that you know aren't yours. It's really easy to see when it's unfair and unreasonable and singling people out. It's mean girl stuff. We know what happens. We know what it looks like. When is the right time to bring that to HR? What should I have in my back pocket before I even knock on the door?
Speaker 4:Oh boy, so it's well and it's unfortunately or fortunately, I guess, in my business, because I need people to misbehave to a certain extent is this happens everywhere.
Speaker 2:It's right. It's not healthcare specific. It is very prevalent in healthcare, but it's not healthcare specific. So my best recommendation of what to keep around in your back pocket is to have as many specifics as possible.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:Think about when you're documenting in a chart. Right, right the adage if it isn't documented, it didn't happen. Correct Applies to HR things as well. Absolutely Right, and so the more specifics, the better. Recency is also very important, right? So if you're coming into my office and saying for the last two years, oh gosh, right, then I'm like no, oh shit, you know Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do we? How do we suddenly curtail something?
Speaker 2:So then it's OK. Can we focus on the last two months? Something Right. So then it's okay. Can we focus on the last two months, right, right, like what? I understand that this has been happening for two years. We're feeling lots of feelings because this has been going on for so long. Really wish you had come to me sooner. Right, we're going to have that talk, right, but recency, timeliness, very, very important. Documentation, very, very important.
Speaker 2:At the point that you need to come in is when you have either talked to your supervisor, your nurse manager, and you feel like you're not getting resolution or you're getting brushed off there. So those should always be your first steps, unless it's them, right, if they're the ones bullying you, please, please, don't Right. Chain of command is very important. Try chain of command first. If you don't ones bullying you, please, please, don't Right. Chain of yeah, chain of command is very important. Try chain of command first. If you don't feel like you're getting that there, then you come to me. Or if it is so extreme of behavior like aggressive behavior harassment, discrimination, really hostile workplace violence types of situations.
Speaker 2:you come immediately Right.
Speaker 1:Okay, if it's just so-and-so, doesn't say hi to me in the morning, right, then maybe we need to facilitate, you know, some inter inter collaborative conversations or some kind of you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's some resilience that's required. Yes, we're not at work to be best friends with everyone. Correct, right.
Speaker 1:I think that's something that is lost in translation, because so much of our environment is trauma laden that we trauma bond.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Hugely, yes, which does not make for productive relationships at all, which is the subject of a different, a different conversation later in the season that I think you're also a part of. Yay me Right, which listeners? I'm not entirely sure that she knew of that. I had informed her of. I know now. Okay, just like old times.
Speaker 2:The good news is is I know how to roll with the punches with you.
Speaker 1:This is not the first time I have done this to her over all the years that we've known each other. Surprise, I'm sorry, what? Oh, okay, this is a positive one however we're going to get quick for a minute real quick. You need me where to do what, yeah although I do have to say brennan is exceptional at cardiac monitors and letting us know that line is that doing that thing that it's not supposed to do, that one particular point that it's not supposed to have it, has it there's no or there's no points, right?
Speaker 2:No, no, no points, no problem, no points, please run.
Speaker 1:Yes, excellent at doing that. So, in seriousness though, it's not just about emotion. Obviously, a lot of these things are very emotionally laden but, it's about evidence.
Speaker 1:And that does tie directly back to the role clarity skill in knowing what's yours and what isn't and being able to name it clearly. Role confusion research shows is that one of the number one reasons for lateral violence in nursing is because of the role confusion Having such a massive amount of responsibility life and death responsibility and not a very clearly in some cases defined level of autonomy to address it. So you are left sitting in the stress of having the responsibility at that level and again, depending on the level of secondary trauma responsibility at that level and again depending on the level of secondary trauma exposure at the same time and nowhere to really go with it. So it bleeds out laterally and role clarity really helps someone define those things for themselves mentally, structurally and then be able to have a conversation about it. Knowing clearly because I think that's where things get muddied is um, themselves mentally structurally and then be able to have a conversation about it.
Speaker 1:Knowing clearly, because I think that's where things get muddied, is who's responsible for what or am I supposed to be doing this or those kind of things are often, I think, brought to your doorstep. We do have policies and protocols those don't can't. You can't write policies and protocols that address those stress levels and what to do with them. Let's pull the curtain back a little bit more. Once a nurse files a complaint, what happens behind the scenes? Like if I send that email, I sit in your office and we have that conversation and this is a conversation of I need something done, like I'm not here to vent, I need actual, tangible help. Then what happens? Lots of stuff, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is another one of those misconceptions where people think they come in and they say things and then I just like spin in my chair, right, I'm just doing a slow spin and laughing and going. Can you believe? Reva just brought this in? Yeah, no, that's not what happens. So the the things that I'm going to make sure I get from you before you leave my office names of any other parties involved, all the dates and times of anything that may have occurred.
Speaker 2:Figuring out places, locations where there are cameras yes, right, even if there's not sound. That's really important because you can often tell if you're a good people reader, which you should be, if you're in HR in particular, you can often tell emotion through body language, right? Yes, that's 72% of your communication is through body language, right? Yes, that's 72% of your communication is your body language. Yes, and so cameras, witnesses, dates, times, places yes, all those fun things, right? So I'm going to make sure I have those before you leave my office, and this makes people uncomfortable. I'm also going to ask you to write it down.
Speaker 1:And I think that's I think people don't understand the investigative nature because this has to be legally supported Right and that aspect of it doesn't. I think those dots aren't usually connected.
Speaker 2:Right, and I try really hard to not make it uncomfortable, right, and I try really hard to not make it uncomfortable, right, but there is some pushiness that's involved in that process because I really need whatever it is that you've just told me that has happened written in your words. I need that pen to paper and I need your signature on it, not because I'm trying to make your life difficult or I want to make you relive the horrible thing that has just happened, or I'm going to go show it to people or any of that. Right, I need it in your words for legal purposes, correct, and that is all. And so what I have done, what I've implemented in the past, is actually typing up the document while the person is in my office talking to me about it and saying okay. So we have a couple of options here. You can either go write this in your own writing, bring it back to me, or we can go through this. You can sign it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Make sure that I did I capture what your intent was and what you told me and I'm going to have you sign this and then we're done and you don't have to rewrite it to try and help bridge that gap. So that'll happen. Follow-up interviews happen. So witnesses that are involved that you've mentioned when you've come in and given me the complaint or the brought the issue up if it's not a formal complaint, whatever it is that I'm investigating so witnesses and statements from those witnesses and then typically that leads to more people that I have to talk to, with more statements for more witnesses. And then and so there's a few layers of that that will happen Right At some point, depending on the severity of the situation. Situation the leader over that department has to be involved, right, and or possibly the ceo, right, depending on how severe it is. Then another misconception I don't actually get to make decisions and take action on stuff weird, I know, isn't that don't?
Speaker 1:they don't get it.
Speaker 2:So I have to then make a recommendation Correct and somebody else has to take the action.
Speaker 1:So and I can tell you from my experience as a nursing executive that's usually us, and whether your leadership has a good relationship with HR or doesn't deeply impacts whether or not HR has any teeth, just being blunt. And if your leadership doesn't or isn't good leadership, we've had that you're stuck. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I have big, sharp teeth, so I have. I myself have learned resilience, yes, and I think coming into my HR career in healthcare probably sharpened them very quickly. Yes, but you have to have a confident HR person that is very detailed, yes, and can go in and then make recommendations with facts Right, so that someone can't say no, I'm not going to do this because X, y, z, no, you are, and this is why, exactly, and this is how it's going to impact.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you don't Correct, and this is how it's going to impact us. If you don't and I think I know that the last facility not does not speak the same language maybe or maybe it's a different idea about what to do with the recommendations it has left you in the position of being the middleman. You have people that come into your office in a vulnerable state. Yep, you do what you do, which oftentimes isn't visible and it can't be. You cannot go back and tell people this is what I've done and this is what I've talked to you for legal. You do what you do, which oftentimes isn't visible and it can't be. You cannot go back and tell people this is what I've done and this is what I've talked to you for legal reasons, right?
Speaker 2:I mean there's certain there's some follow up that has to be done, like I have concluded this investigation. That part, yeah, you can't tell them.
Speaker 1:No, you know what they want to hear, right, so you have. You also can't answer the questions and then if the recommendations aren't followed through, I've seen you get the brunt of that. Yeah, I've seen you get the brunt of the nastiness, the xyz and and I think that hopefully nurses listening to this podcast get a better understanding of HR and how to actually have a productive conversation with HR. Yeah, because, truthfully, the bullying epidemic in nursing can't and won't change until we do Correct. Correct Because as nurses, personally, we can do the work that we need to. So that the whole nurses eat their young is bullshit. We don't, we can't, we do not want younger nurses coming in, and not younger is an age, newer, newer nurses, new grads, you know like, keep the population growing. We cannot do that without the HR system In any sense. Whether you are an outpatient, whether you are in a staff hospital, doesn't matter, because the HR system, human resources, how the humans are managed in the HR system, in the healthcare system, but nurses, again, these are all skill sets that nurses are not taught pretty much at any point. And, in fact, if I hadn't become a house supervisor and started growing and learning at that point, all of the things I didn't know, that I didn't know even as a nurse executive, in learning how to make the recommendations.
Speaker 1:Learning what do we need? Because I know how to document and chart to the t's, but learning from you. If this system you know, if this policy, this protocol, this, whatever you know, we need to advocate for this to change, well then then this is what needs to be presented with it. This is you need the tangible data. Yep, you need the tangibles in order for this to be real, for this to be engageable, for this to be engageable, for this to be actionable 100%. And I think that documentation. It is an uncomfortable process because it's kind of like long drawn, like a long drawn out conflict and people that aren't good with conflict even people that are good with conflict. It's very uncomfortable. But without learning how to engage with the HR system and your HR professionals, you can't do anything, and not because HR doesn't want to, but because they can't. Right, if we come to you and we don't have these things in our back pocket, we're not ready for this process.
Speaker 1:We don't hear. That's a lot of, and you can't see what I'm doing Cause we're not on camera, but I'm holding my hands open with nothing in them.
Speaker 2:Just handing me the problem.
Speaker 1:Have the problem there's. There's the problem, but nothing without anything to fix it. And I don't think that people understand that HR, just like every other human in the company, is a human and gets stuck in the middle. Hr is not unilaterally responsible for the decisions that happen. Sure, can you effectively you, you know, effectively handle XYZ or whatever? Yes, of course there are Things that you do, just like charge nurses and house supervisors Yep, I need to write that person up for being late or I need to, you know whatever it is. Yes, there are. But when it comes to handling some of these bigger issues or formal complaints, you know you pop hot on a drug test. There's a policy and a protocol for that and we follow it, and there's not really any decisions that slide left or right. It just does what it does.
Speaker 2:But for the things that require recommendations and big actions. I don't think people realize that that's not a unilateral HR thing Well there's a lot of behind the scenes work in regard to consistency as well.
Speaker 2:So I I as an hr executive, and if you have a good hr executive, they're going behind the scenes and they're looking at every policy, process and protocol as they're going through the investigatory flow right to make sure if we've had this come up before, how have we handled it and have we had this come up before and what precedent do we want to set in handling this and making sure that all of those I's are dotted and T's are crossed in the process as well? And that's where I think sometimes there's some misconception and holdup. Is well, they're just in it for the company. Well, we have these things all documented for a reason, right, and we have the way that we need to do things for a reason. Like you said, if you pop positive on a drug test, goodbye, yeah, this is what happens.
Speaker 2:If you come in and take drugs out of the Pyxis down the hall from my office, goodbye, that was a wild day. There are things that are very black and white and cut and dry. There are things like this, lateral violence or workplace violence or bullying that are not cut and dry. And so there's a lot of precedent setting. That has to happen, because it's just recently that people are coming forward more with these kinds of issues and challenges that they're having Right.
Speaker 1:Before it was really kind of championed as, like you have to you know, battle of the gladiators or some shit to you know, earn your stripes as a nurse or whatever.
Speaker 1:So no one ever talked about it. And after COVID, so many many people, we all lost our ever-loving minds and that was really kind of like ripping the band-aid off. Ripping the bandages off and all of the necrosis is like super highly evident. And now there's a lot more conversations about it and I think that with the insidious stuff, the fact so like with nursing communication, it's very chain of command, very much like the military, yeah, in terms of functionality, team steps, communication, trauma, communication, things like that.
Speaker 1:For a reason, and I think with the HR world, what people don't understand is how very legal it's structured. Yes, legal in terms of like actual legal processes, because the precedents that are set, the policies that are set, the protocols, all of those have to stand up in court and in legal scrutiny at a federal level, at a state level, at a county level, regardless of whether they're challenged or not. Because we get examined annually by federal agencies, by state agencies that pour through our policies, our protocols, our complaints, our firings, our hirings, like all these different things, to make sure that the container that we have all these humans in is functioning appropriately, that the container that we have all these humans in is functioning appropriately and the way that it's supposed to, and it happens like every year, sometimes more so. There's something wrong with the structure, yep, and most of the time I don't think staff realizes that, that we're asking these questions, and it feels like an investigation, because it actually is one, because we have to have one, and it's not punitive. We cannot do anything without the documentation, we cannot do anything without the evidence. On that note, one of the partner skill to roll clarity is peace, which is pausing, expressing the facts, asking questions, communicating your boundaries and exiting gracefully. So when dealing with conflict, when dealing with bullying situations, things like that, using a skill set like that, and the question I'm going to ask is going to sound weird, but it's not coming from the place that it's going to sound like it's coming from Like one of the hardest things for nurses is walking into these meetings without feeling like the deck is stacked against them.
Speaker 1:What should a nurse know about protecting themselves in an HR conversation? And this isn't, I'm not meaning protecting you from the HR person. If you have a bad HR person, then I guess so, but more so from the historical perspective of seeing people come in who need help, who are dealing with a bully, who are dealing with a conflict situation that you just wish that they hadn't responded the way that they had, or hadn't said what they said, hadn't shot themselves in the foot. Basically, yeah, what would your advice be in terms of someone who is in the situation, who's living it and is wanting to go to HR hopefully is less afraid to do so now that they've listened to what we've talked about so far? But also, you want them to be successful when they come in. What would your advice to them be in the moment so that, when they do come into HR and need help, they can get help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is actually. It's very hard. Right.
Speaker 2:Because you really have to take emotion out of it in the moment, and that's when you really want to be emotional is in the moment where you feel like you're being attacked. Yes absolutely emotional is in the moment where you feel like you're being attacked Right, absolutely and you have to be able to have enough resilience and have done some boundary setting for yourself, yes, so that you can really pull back and not emotionally react. Where I see people shoot themselves in the foot is they get on the defensive. Yes.
Speaker 2:And they are feeling attacked in the moment? Yes, and they react poorly? Yes, what behavior is typically the one that gets reprimanded? The reaction yes, right, and that bullies operate that way? Yes, they're trying to get the reaction. Don't give them what they want Exactly, and so coming in saving that emotion if you have an HR person like me that can absorb that you save it till you get into my office and then say I just need to blow for a minute, right, and you let it fucking go. Right, right Right.
Speaker 2:And then, once you've calmed down, we have a conversation. Right, right, but don't do it in the moment. That's the part.
Speaker 1:I think, practicing the skill set. I think, as we've seen with bullying behavior, it's kind of like extinction behavior. As soon as you set the line, that boundary, they either have to deescalate and back off or the behavior intensifies until it extinguishes. Exiting the conversation seems to be the hard part. Setting the boundary of I don't think this is productive, or I'm not really comfortable with how you're speaking to me right now. That is setting that boundary line. And then you have the point of either escalation or de-escalation.
Speaker 1:What would you say if you were going to give a nurse like hey, keep the sprays in your back pocket, and if you need to exit a conversation so that you can not explode in the moment or you can get yourself out of that space not explode in the moment, or you can get yourself out of that space what would you say is an effective way to professionally and non, you know, just professionally end the conversation at that point to give themselves space. That's a phrase that they can just have in their back pocket and then they can figure out either how to make an appointment with you or pull it off, or examine the situation or whatever. What would you say would be like a go-to thing that somebody could, after pausing and thinking about it, or maybe even just have it enough in their back pocket that, if they don't have time to pause their mouth words, this can come out instead and they can exit the airspace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is actually a leadership skill that I teach to supervisors, managers, directors, general managers, ceos yes, in a situation where you feel like it's getting heated and I've had to use this myself as an HR person too If you're In a situation where you feel like it's getting heated and I've had to use this myself as an HR person too If you're in a situation that you feel is getting heated and you can feel yourself and this is where it's really hard, because you have to be self-aware that, yes, yeah, you can feel yourself starting to ramp up. For me, I call it red cloud. Yes, like that's all I can see and you better go.
Speaker 2:And I'm a fire sign, y'all Same same. Gets spicy. No tea kettle, I'm going to cry. Or meetings Fix your face, yes, but then I have to fix mine too is to say hey, I don't, I don't you set the boundary and exit in the same sentence. Essentially, so I you say I feel like this conversation is not productive, right? Can we set a time later today, or next shift, or whatever, to come back and address this? Okay. And that is usually de-escalation for the bully. What are they going to say, right?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And if they do say no because they will that true then you just physically remove yourself, correct? Just walk away, correct, right, or wheel their chair out of your office. Oh gosh, we have so many stories so, but that is that is probably my best tip. Right is hey, I. This is not working well right now. Can we come back to it later, some some semblance of that sequence. Okay, will generally diffuse the situation and, like I said, if it doesn't, then you just physically remove yourself, right because the sentence itself, the phrase itself, is non-confrontational enough and boundary setting.
Speaker 1:You don't need further explanation. Nope this. This isn't really feeling productive right now. We need to return to this conversation at a later time, either next shift or before the end of the shift, and leave it at that.
Speaker 2:We don't have time to waste time, correct. I mean, nurses are in the, the, the probably most important role in any place that you could, possibly, you're keeping people alive, right, correct, right, right. Any place that you could, possibly, you're keeping people alive right, correct, right, right.
Speaker 1:So you don't have time to sit and deal with the nonsense, right, and so quick de-escalation is the best way to go yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely think that the quick de-escalation, or at least providing that break point, is the best way to keep yourself from shooting yourself in the foot. Yep, because you, you, you want to be able to address the situation and the problem and, as we've talked about, hr has to be able to go through the process in order to do so, and it is really limited by also having to get the other, the person, coming in in trouble for their reaction. It makes it, it really dilutes the water. Kind of. Circling back to talking about HR professionals being people too. We know that you're dealing with pressure from leadership, laws, budgets, literally, honestly, the same kind of stress that we face. It's just coming from a different angle. What is the one thing you wish you could tell nurses as an HR professional, like, hey, we're people too, side of things.
Speaker 2:I think coming into an HR professional's world, really just that understanding that we're doing our best, just like you are Right. Right, we have. Like you said, we have different constraints but similar level of constraints, yes. Yes. As someone in a floor role.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Or even a nurse executive role. Yes, nurse executive is even more similar, probably, than somebody on the floor, but and we are we are literally just trying to do our best, like you are right. Right, we are caretakers as well.
Speaker 1:I think people don't understand that. Yeah, Honestly, it wasn't until I worked in closer proximity to you as a colleague maybe because our offices shared a wall. I couldn't hear through it. They were far walls but our doors were right next to each other and seeing the amount of space that you had to hold for other people's emotions, yeah.
Speaker 1:Daily, yeah, constantly Yep. Daily, yeah, constantly yep. I think was an aspect that it hadn't really occurred to me. I knew a lot more about the policies and protocols and all that other kind of stuff from being at an administrative level, like at a house supervisor level, but not so much the day-to-day aspect of it, both the good and positives and negatives, unfortunately. I think. Just like nursing patients aren't there because it's a good day, most people don't go to HR for fun.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:People don't see nurses for fun. So unfortunately, I think a lot of it was more negative than positive. And it's an everyday thing. I don't think people realize that yeah it, it really is.
Speaker 2:I. I try and encourage as much positive as possible. Yes. Right, please just come in and say hi, right, I just want you to come in and say hi, yeah, I will feed you candy. Yes. I will keep bubbly water in my fridge, in my office. Yes, and what I did was I created a sanctuary.
Speaker 1:Yes, Very much so.
Speaker 2:And and it was successful, and I've done that in more than one place. Yes, and, but you have to do that by meeting people where they're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a skillset that you are very good at. You know, some nurses are really good at some things and some nurses aren't. I think the same is true, obviously, of HR professionals, because they're humans. Then hopefully, hopefully, most of my listeners work in an environment where they have at least one HR person. I really hope so. That's, you know, that's good at that. I know nurses that aren't very people person right we usually work in the icu.
Speaker 1:I cracked you like a nut, though I know nobody's supposed to know that, but I think that it's. I think it's really important that that people learn to engage with the system in a productive manner so that we can actually effectively move the needle. We can actually change the culture of bullying in nursing, and we can't do that unless we actually work as a team. Yeah, the personal change is important because that's where it starts, but I don't think that until we really start working together as a team, we're going to be able to effectively change. It's not even just the perception, the way that things are structured, that allow for or that cause these kinds of situations to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I guarantee a lot of the listeners hearing this, there's a lot of things that haven't occurred to them in terms of the HR perspective, how to really engage effectively with it, and remembering that HR are people, not automatons, or I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. I'm trying to think back, like to when I was a new grad, because that system was very different and we didn't really I mean, I bet we probably did. I just wouldn't have had any idea at that level in my career or skill sets how to engage with HR. Yeah, you know how to have a relationship with HR as a resource.
Speaker 2:I wish that they taught that in school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would teach us how to advocate better. Yep, it would. It would teach us and not just with HR, but with physicians, with intercollaborative teams, with family members. If we learned how to develop these skills sets and also have those productive conversations, I think people that go through processes with HR learn a lot more about communicating effectively, yes, Than they did before they engage with HR.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Like you, should have HR professionals teaching a class in nursing school.
Speaker 2:I would gladly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, about communication. Well, when the curriculum comes out, brennan may be one of your teachers. All right, besties. It is dance break time. So if you are heading back to the floor, do so hydrated and make sure you take a few minutes to just ground and center. When we come back, we're going to keep the convo going with Brennan. So those of you sticking around, hydrate, dance it out and we'll be right back.
Speaker 4:When I am down it's like you have a spark that leaves me burning. You just have your ways to get me high. You make all my dreams come true. It feels right when I'm around you. We could break up and then make up. I always come back to you. You move me in a way never thought anyone could you get me high. You're my drug when I am feeling blue.
Speaker 1:We are back with my friend Brennan, an HR executive and incredible professional, who's been helping us understand what's real and what's legit helpful when you need to engage with HR and work as a team. So so far, this has been so good. This has been amazing. I want to pull this together for our listeners. Really, what I'm hearing is that nurses need to walk into HR prepared, clear about their role, grounded in facts, ready to communicate with peace instead of panic. And, brennan, you've shown us that HR isn't a magic wand and it's also not a black hole either. It is a system that we can navigate more productively when we understand how it works. So kind of thinking about integrating. You know what we've talked about together. Is there anything that you want to revisit, or anything that I've missed that you want to revisit, or anything that I missed that you feel we?
Speaker 2:need to talk about. Yeah, I don't think you've missed anything. You are a sound nurse executive, and so I think that you've pulled this together really, really well, but also helps that we have a, you know, a kind of okay, halfway decent relationship, sort of sort of kind of right. But I think I want to recap some of the points that we talked about From a communication style perspective.
Speaker 2:we talked about Absolutely From a communication style perspective. We talked about timeliness, yes, being really, really important. Yes, be direct, be factual, be objective. Typically, these things are things that you're personally experiencing. The emotions are going to come into play. That makes sense, but you still have to be able to have a coherent conversation, right, right, push through that emotion a little bit or get it out of the way and collect yourself and then move into a productive conversation, whether that be on the floor in the moment, right, or that whole. Don't shoot yourself in the foot portion of things Exactly.
Speaker 2:Right or if you're in HR's office or your nurse manager's office or your CEO's office or wherever that may be in your chain of command. Being able to pull through that emotion and be objective and productive in conversation is really, really important. Be solutions focused Right. It's not HR's job to solve your problem Right. They're there to help, give you resources so that you can solve your own problem right, and in some cases that may be not what you're ready for.
Speaker 2:that's very true, right very true and so I think you know approaching situations and framing your concerns with, I feel like, whatever it is, and this is why that's going to be really important in guiding that conversation towards productivity, with those kinds of things For someone who feels like they're stuck in a hostile work environment, if you feel like you're being bullied or you see your co-workers being bullied, or you just can't handle the eating of young or the negativity or yeah bad culture.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you feel like you've done what you need to do from a, an escalation standpoint involving your resources, using hr, hr, get the fuck out Right. You do not have to suffer. Right, right, yes, and it's okay. I think this is important for people to hear sometimes yes, it's okay, everybody's going to be fine, your patients will be okay. Yes, your coworkers will be okay. Yes, this is where the trauma bonding can get really negative sometimes is people hold yes, right, good, people hold on to each other and they stay in situations because they feel like they can't abandon Right or they feel like it is abandoned.
Speaker 2:Don't just go Right. Just go, I can guarantee you, somewhere else needs you, yes, somewhere else needs you, yes, and you will be more successful if you're not in a place that you dread waking up and going to every day.
Speaker 1:That is so real, that is so, so real and so many. I think it kind of. It's something that I think gets lost in the conversation, because when we talk about learning skill sets and being productive and engaging productively, a lot of that can be misconstrued as it's squarely on your shoulders to fix the thing and everything around it. Yep, you can only control what you control. So, yes, do those things control. So, yes, do those things you know. Be empowered by being self-aware, by growing in these skill sets, because you need them no matter where you go.
Speaker 1:But if you are in an environment where the needle's not moving, you know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a change. Yep, and nurses, that trauma bonding is so real. You feel like I know how bad it is. I can't jump ship, I can't cut and run. I can't. You absolutely can, because it is going to take a physical and mental toll on you to continue being in an environment that is harmful to you well, and we've done that I don't want to say together, but we've done that kind of together yes, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1:You have to recognize when something is not healthy for you and there isn't anything left for you to do the last, the last job that we worked together I actually semi-retired from because I couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that was an extreme trauma bond.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and yeah, it's done and done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's also really important. This is something that I struggle with too. Yeah, and this is that caregiver mentality. We have to be the strong ones. Yes, right, and so you have to have a place where you can be vulnerable. Yes, and that's really I mean, in my opinion, as an hr executive is the appropriate correct correct right and, in my opinion, as an hr executive, I want to be that place for people, right.
Speaker 2:Right, I I want to be that place where people can come in and be vulnerable and have their moment and feel their feelings and do what they need to do, either with me or not with me. Like you can just come be in my space, right, but it's a safe space, right To be able to come, do that Right, and we can just coexist. Or we can do it together, right, and I have cried with people and I have screamed into pillows with people. Right, I have cried with people and I have screamed with into pillows with people and I you know, like you have to know who that person is and what place that is. As an HR person, it's harder to have one, and so I think, understanding that we, we as HR professionals who do all this preaching and and culture building and Right Resourcing yes, we, generally speaking, are without resource.
Speaker 1:Yes, you are the resource Right and, due to the very sensitive nature of your job, it's either another HR professional or not at work at all a lot of us are in therapy correct, correct. And I think that's funny because I think, in thinking about it, people don't realize that hr doesn't engage on social level, not because they don't want to Right, but technically because they can't really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean generally it's because you don't want us to Well that part of it. If they're doing dumb things, yes, but generally HR is not invited to the party to begin with, but we literally can't have those kinds of relationships, Right?
Speaker 1:And that trauma bonding level of things in those work environments. And I'm not saying that all relationships are trauma bonding. Some of my closest friends I've worked with and nursed with but there's a lot of unhealthy relationship building and it's just kind of due to the very nature of the surroundings that we work in. And I think that is another part of what drives the misconceptions is the notable absence of our HR colleagues in a lot of those settings, because they have to be but you will find HR people that will tell you when monitors look funky. Yes.
Speaker 2:Or teach chest tubes at your skills fair. Yes, bubbles are bad, yeah, yes, bubbles are bad, yeah, and we'll respond to a code and chuck supplies into the room. Yes, Absolutely. And we'll just grab a laptop and sit at the nurse's station with you just to be in your presence, yes, and make it easier for you to talk to them.
Speaker 1:I do wish that more HR professionals were like that.
Speaker 2:Or go sit with a patient yes or move a guy that's needing to get on the pot five minutes ago onto the pot yes.
Speaker 1:You know she ambulates patients very well, thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm also a PIC wine assistant assistant.
Speaker 1:Case made one of those two.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're exceptional with PBE, I have to say, and she has really long arms.
Speaker 2:Very multifaceted octopus of HR.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think I think that's that's just super important, knowing where that healthy space is. And a huge part of what I teach in the Ritual Nurse is teaching people how to carve out, to make a ritual of carving out that time for self-care, whether it is reading, whether it is exercising, whether it's having a coffee date with a friend journaling, sitting in peace and quiet, listening to loud music, whether it's having a coffee date with a friend journaling, sitting in peace and quiet, listening to loud music. Whatever it is is teaching people how to carve that out for themselves so that they have a healthy balance. Yeah, for HR, that is really hard for you guys. You're sitting in your office. Whose office are you going to go sit in? You know, and the more you know as an HR director, as an executive, you're, there's no, you're, you have, you are the office like. What other office are you gonna go?
Speaker 2:in. I mean really, at that point you have the ceo right, and if you don't have a good relationship with the ceo, then there's no, there's nowhere, there's no.
Speaker 1:No, we needed a door in in between our offices. Yes, so that we could run back and forth. Yes, because anytime we exited our office we would get like way later diverted, even though there was like the wall was six inches, yeah, six inches thick making it around. That six inch corner was sometimes impossible, but yeah, we just needed a, a hidey hole tunnel that we could like zip in and out across the offices just to be able to to to breathe some days.
Speaker 2:It's probably good the windows didn't open.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's why we hung all the succulents and all the crystals and all the you know stuff in the way I do have to say for my listeners, her office, what was it called? Sweater weather? Yeah, is that what it's called? Yeah, this, uh, the scent in her office every time you would walk in, you immediately would have to be like, like I don't. As an air freshener. It's not quite the howl doll air freshener that I want to have manufactured someday but it's close.
Speaker 2:It was designed with intention. Yeah, colors were picked with intention. Yes, lighting was picked with intention. I refuse to use overhead lights, guys. I do not, I will not.
Speaker 1:We're not even recording with overhead lights on right now, nope.
Speaker 2:I don't use them in my home and I None of us did.
Speaker 1:How many people walked into our offices and were like, why is it so dark?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a cave right, it's intentional, I can see what I'm doing and you don't necessarily need to just sit down right, and I had a lamp for winter. Yes, crystals were placed in specific places yes, plants were placed in specific places. I mean it was all done with intent to try and create a cave, cozy, cave like environment for people that were coming in to see me to make it as comfortable as possible.
Speaker 1:Very therapeutic environment, very therapeutic, absolutely loved, loved. Well, is there before we head off into our favorite segment. Is there any anything else, any last tidbit or piece of advice that you want to share.
Speaker 2:I think I think really building resilience and boundaries for yourself is going to help so much with helping rebuild the culture of where you are. Yes, everyone's everyone is responsible for culture. Yes, and I mean and real and really, people that are living it every day, people that are on the floor, are even more so responsible for the culture, because their daily interactions with each other is what drives that. So, building resilience and I don't want to insult anyone, but I feel like we have less resilience now than we did previously and that's not insulting.
Speaker 1:I think it is a byproduct of it not being taught. Yep, it is a byproduct of increased stress and increased exposure to trauma, with the same lack of teaching the skill sets in the first place. Because even when I went to nursing school forever ago absolutely not, was it mentioned. Are you out of your mind? Right? You are to be caring and altruistic and always ready and always available and impenetrable, completely impenetrable. That white hat and white uniform and white shoes, stupidest thing ever, was like, first of all, unobtainium and teflon, yeah and how dare you imply that there'd be weakness?
Speaker 1:lies, yeah, absolute lies, and inhuman to live up to right, and that's completely you know. So I think it's a fact. That's the whole point of my research. I've been researching it for five years now and the reason that it needs to be taught like nurses need to be empowered. All health care providers need to be taught and empowered to do this.
Speaker 2:And care providers. Of healthcare providers.
Speaker 1:Yes, hugely. Do they have like HR conferences for HR people that teach you how to do this?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting. Yes, I mean, you guys have to learn somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're innately born with it, yeah.
Speaker 2:There are lots, lots of avenues for education. Awesome For people to learn resilience techniques for themselves.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, do they teach HR people how to care for themselves so they can care for others?
Speaker 2:Not as much as you would hope and think that they would. I think it's. There's just an innate assumption that because we've picked a career where we're taking care of people yeah, that's similar to nursing or any other type of healthcare position, but somehow we just know what to do Correct, right. There is a lot more focus on mental health, though, okay, and, and I'm hoping that that continues to grow yeah, but if you're working on building resilience for yourself and creating boundaries for yourself, it statistically does help reduce burnout. Yes, yeah, it does support a support, a supportive workplace I don't have words, apparently, that's okay Strengthens supportive workplace culture. Yes, it helps you with creating work-life balance because you've created those boundaries for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, it builds trust. That also requires you to be vulnerable. You can be vulnerable because you've created the pocket, the space for you to do so when it's appropriate, because it's not always appropriate.
Speaker 2:It also helps prevent resentment. Yes, and that's something that I think both of us in our careers thing that I think both both of us in our careers, because of being in caregiving positions, have a tendency to get jaded or have resentment build or, you know, have some of the us versus them type of mentality in some situations, because maladaptive coping behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, because we, we don't have the information that we need to learn how to cope appropriately. Correct, yes. Yes, because we, we don't have the information that we need to learn how to cope appropriately. Correct, yes. But my my last, my last little tidbit of advice don't be afraid to come forward. Right, we know that healthcare workers, statistically, are the most abused, right, mentally, emotionally abused profession. I mean, you have protections through ocean, joint commission and cms and blah, blah, blah, and you know all of that. But you, you have to use your voice to speak up and protect yourself. Right, I would say also protect your coworkers, but it needs to be your story to tell, right, so focus on protecting yourself.
Speaker 1:I think for people that want to advocate. There are leaders that want to advocate and feel kind of powerless. They may be mid-level leaders, they may be new leaders. Learning how to establishing that relationship with HR as a resource is literally how you do that. Correct, it's not. You're not tattling, you're not snitching.
Speaker 1:Engaging with HR. Having HR come to the floor and talk to people about processes, about healthy environments, about anything Even hey, can you do some lunch and learns, about productive communication or difficult conversations, things like that. Get people engaged with HR in a positive manner that doesn't have anything immediately to do with any kind of investigative process, right, but literally as colleagues and the more that you open that up and you know, just really create that network that allows for people who may not have felt confident before to then maybe approach a person. I am having difficulty with this, or I don't know if this is okay, like I'm not sure what this is. Yep, I don't like how it feels, but I don't necessarily know if that's a me thing or if it's not okay thing. That's okay to say, but they may not have been confident enough to do so. Yep.
Speaker 2:So, leaders and people that may not themselves be having the problems can facilitate by engaging and developing a relationship with HR Well, and that initiation will help with an HR professional who's not confident. Very true. Right.
Speaker 1:So that invitation.
Speaker 2:You're human beings like we are. And it could be a situation where somebody's never worked in healthcare before Right, right, because we're not generally hired. We're not hired like nurses, right, where they're like okay, you're specifically really good at this thing.
Speaker 1:Right, that is your license in this area, and keeping these people alive.
Speaker 2:Correct Right it's. We just know people Right and and not having been in a healthcare environment before can be very intimidating. Highly yes, and you're working with like geniuses every day, right, I can't do some of. I can't do most of the stuff that you can do, nor would I want to, which is why I'm not a nurse. But no, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, we both know why I'm not in HR.
Speaker 2:Correct? Yes, we do, but inviting that relationship, I think, is really helpful for somebody who's not confident In my case, I was, and so it wasn't a problem for me to go out on the floor and insert myself. I think what was helpful on one team that we worked with and this is something nurse leaders of the world that are listening to this can take back was when the admin team had patient assignments. Yes, and we're forced to do rounds. You stop it, put you in timeout.
Speaker 1:I wasn't. It wasn't my fault.
Speaker 2:I think that was helpful too. Yes, not for me, because I was already out there, right, making rounds with the CNAs, passing breakfast trays in the morning, saying good morning to everyone, yes. Changing pads and beds and whatnot, yes, so that wasn't a big deal for me. But for someone who was used to sitting in their office all day long, yes, it forced them to be pulled out into the situation on the floor to see what's happening Correct Right. To see what's happening Correct Right. And so having the invitation from nursing to engage in that conversation could help a less confident HR person or admin person in general to form that bond to where I could take my laptop and just go sit at the nurse's station. People wouldn't even realize I was there. The things I would hear, I know.
Speaker 1:I'm typing, I'm typing, I'm typing.
Speaker 2:Oh God, but then at that point you're just kind of like one of the gang and so if something does happen, then they really know that they can come to you, Correct?
Speaker 1:I think. I think that that's super important and, you know, in a best case scenario, you have a well-functioning team that understands each other's roles, understands each other's capabilities, so that you can work to the top of your licenses. And only in that regard are we strong enough, then, to change what needs to be changed, keep what works and change what needs to be changed, for the benefit of everybody working in the environment and, most importantly, the patients that are coming into the environment. Patients don't come to us because it's a happy day, right. They are literally at our mercy and we cannot take care of other people when we are the walking wounded. Correct? I think that applies to HR as well. Oh my God, absolutely Like. I don't know. I don't know how many times over the years I've said this to you. I don't know, like, how do you have the capacity to absorb all of this? Or you know?
Speaker 2:master compartmentalization yes, so that's called stop shoving shit in the pocket.
Speaker 1:I know I listen to that right yes, but that's that's where you know we we have the healthy work-life boundaries and therapy. To you know, having a bestie who is a therapist.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, she's very helpful.
Speaker 1:That, you know, really creates the ability for us to then enter into the environment. You, for the people that we work with us, for the patients that come in to see us, to then absorb, to be, to do, to be. You know, move and do as we need to. Yep. I yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I, I just I hope that the listeners that are taking this in are able to really insert themselves in the conversation that we're having and think about an HR professional where they work that they could approach, or team leader that this made them think of, cause I know all of you listening immediately could already identify and think of the negative situations, the culture, the frustrations, bullying, you know things like that. But I'm hoping that understanding transparently, like what the process looks like, how to engage with it most productively, really gave people listening. You know that it made them think of somebody or like, okay, a path or a, you know a light bulb went off or a something to empower them to kind of have action. To do this, if you guys, in listening to this, had questions that you wish you could have asked in real time while listening to us, use the text link at the top of the show notes. I know it's on Apple Podcasts, I know it's on Spotify, I don't know about Audible or some of the other streaming services.
Speaker 1:The show notes are the same across the board and the text link is coded into them, but it's anonymous and it doesn't give me any kind of return phone number. Anonymous and it doesn't give me any kind of return phone number. You hit the text link. It opens up your messages on your device. You can send off whatever you want to send off and I get it immediately. And it is as anonymous as 100% anonymous.
Speaker 1:You won't you're not signing up for anything. You won't get spam messages. You're not signing up for a newsletter. Nothing is recorded. Your number is not recorded in any sense, or you can make it as personal as you want. I can't promise that I'm going to be as personal on the air if I address the questions, however, that is up to you. But I would love to have the questions because in the later episode, when Brennan returns to us, maybe we can address some of them. We both also have social media. The Ritual Nurse is a TikTok and after we do Coffee, crystals and Divination, maybe Brennan can talk about what she does on social media. But we are at our favorite part of the podcast.
Speaker 1:This is my favorite part of the podcast. I would do podcasts just based on this. I don't know, maybe that might be something we do just because I love doing it and she is indeed hr magic but also magic magic.
Speaker 1:So do you want to pull both? Pull one, oh, what would you like to do? Or we can pull together whatever you, whatever, okay. So why don't you shuffle the oracle deck and I will shuffle the tarot deck? And while we're doing that, we always talk about it's called coffee. It doesn't have to be coffee, but our kind of current drink obsession. So for you right now, what is your go-to cup? Self-care, relaxation, you need a break. What's your go-to kind of obsession right now?
Speaker 2:I well, you know this podcast land. You don't know this. I am a diet coke fiend. Yes, it, it is my drug of choice. Yeah, I don't know why it makes me feel so good, but it does, so then we just go with it. But I am a very big coffee drinker. I am not a fall coffee drinker Me either. Do not give me pumpkin anything. I like pumpkin pie like real. Nope, the actual pumpkin pie, but nope, I don't want, want pumpkin. I am an apple fall girl, but from a coffee perspective, hazelnut anything hazelnut is always my jam. Today I brought with me butter pecan. Oh, I didn't even know. They had cold foam, okay, and that is giving me life. But yeah, coffee and Diet Coke Got it.
Speaker 1:Yes, the butter pecan cold font. That's human bean. Yes, human bean. Yeah, I didn't even know they had that. That's going to have to be my stop, maybe this afternoon. Mm-hmm, right now that I finally found them. Those of you that follow my TikTok will have seen this, but the Alani New Witch's Brew is brew is speaking of apple is it apple flavored?
Speaker 1:yes, it is like it reminds me of martinelli's, but not sweet like that. It's sour apple. Oh, I did see your tiktok, yes, yes, so it's sour apple, and I said adult martinelli's and then I realized it sounded like it had alcohol in it. That's not what I mean. I just mean highly caffeinated Martinelli's. Yes, and it is. I'm obsessed with it. It took me forever to find it, but it's like sour apple.
Speaker 2:If it did not make me feel like I was going to vibrate off the planet then, I would probably enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Correct. Yes, the flavor, I definitely think it is. Yeah, it's like sour apple sounds weird, I don't know how to describe it so like an apple Jolly Rancher Kind of. Okay, yeah, the flavors. That like my mouth is watering talking about it.
Speaker 2:We'll drink it.
Speaker 1:Awesome, all righty, so let's do. Let's do our crystal Oracle first. Okay, we'll do arrow. Okay, for some reason I spaced what order we're doing in.
Speaker 2:What do you want me to do? Do you want me to pull from the top, the middle, the honestly, whatever, whatever you feel one's calling me right. It's this one recharge.
Speaker 1:Irrelevant, totally irrelevant. Isn't that timely? I love it all. Right, let's see what I get here and these cards. I just I keep talking, you know switching decks or going to something different, and I just can't. I don't know why they haven't been too sassy entirely. I don't think I've ever run in, oh dear.
Speaker 2:She wants to come out Exactly. I don't think I've ever run into that card that called me a peasant. Since it called you a peasant. Okay, told me to knock it off.
Speaker 1:This might me a peasant, since it called you a peasant, correct? Okay, this might be it. However, majesty, oh, I've never. This one's bloodstone, oh wow, I know, isn't that gorgeous? I haven't seen that. So, let's, we're gonna read the selenite first, and then we'll read majesty, and then we'll do the tarot. All right?
Speaker 1:so recharge selenite purification, consciousness, tranquility. When your battery is running low, it's time to plug into the purifying energy of selenite. Just like your phone needs to recharge, you need to sometimes too. Selenite clears any negative energy and promotes clarity and calmness. So take a moment to unwind with selenite, let go of the day's stresses and find that place of tranquility. Your crystals may need a little recharging too, and, if you didn't know, selenite can help with that as well. Unplug from the chaos and plug into your inner calm. That is exceptional, promoting clarity and calmness.
Speaker 2:All right bloodstone I think that's perfect for today right, I've never seen this one it's beautiful nobility, strength and determination, like a crown adorning your spirit.
Speaker 1:Let bloodstone infuse you with the regal essence of power and determination. Embrace your inner royalty and stand firm in your convictions as you navigate life's challenges with grace and poise, knowing that you possess the inner strength of a true noble you. You are destined for greatness, so rule your life with confidence and courage, like the king you are. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:I think those are both very applicable to today.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It really kind of mirrors the skill sets from the last podcast that were discussed, and these are just gorgeous. I don't think I've seen the selenite one either, actually, not that I think about it. All right, tarot, I will pull a tarot card and then have you pull a tarot card and see what our If you're a peasant again. Let me see if I'm a peasant again I will die. When I read it, the indignance initially that I was like what the? Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:and usually with these they will tell you, yeah, yeah, they're quiet today. Whoop, there she is.
Speaker 1:Yep, the emperor just might be a peasant I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was hysterical. This is ruby. I don't think we've seen this one either. Okay, oh, geez, that's fine, they wanted to come out. They wanted to come out night of cups and the hierophant. So we have ruby, vanadonite and lapis lazuli.
Speaker 1:So the emperor stability, structure and protectiveness. Ruby is vitality, knowledge and enthusiasm. The emperor represents a lot of stability, hard work, leadership and discipline. You have the knowledge and wisdom to. Emperor represents a lot of stability, hard work, leadership and discipline. You have the knowledge and wisdom to do anything you set your mind to so claim your authority as a leader, all right. So the knight of cups is vanad night and it says following your heart, taking action on feelings or romance. Vanad night is action, creativity and energy, and I think already these two together are really pointing to being in leadership and knowing, like, knowing your role right and taking action and leading with that. And then the hierophant is tradition, wisdom, mastery. Lapis lazuli is wisdom, clarity and intellect. The hierophant brings forth feelings of morality and being ethical. Think of this card as the older, wiser teacher or a counselor who will mentor you along the way, or HR Correct. I was like, oh, this is irrelevant. It can be related to traditions and convention, learning and education, or mastering a certain area of your life.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Totally irrelevant. Ding, ding Right.
Speaker 1:I love doing these polls because every episode the message changes and either highlights the connection between the themes that we're talking about or adds a little bit deeper aspect of it. And in this case I feel like it really connected the dots between what we discussed the skill sets and turned it into kind of a personal reflection.
Speaker 2:I love, love a throat chakra stone for work.
Speaker 1:Ooh.
Speaker 2:And that's lapis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are the crystal maven, the crystal goddess I usually find stones that I absolutely love and immediately what is this? And I'm like sending her 15 pictures of a stone from like every possible angle, she's like, oh, that's xyz. Or oh, yeah, that's xyz.
Speaker 2:Absolute crystal maven, I love blues are your throat, pinks and reds are heart, usually Heart and crown. Yes, what do you do?
Speaker 1:Like emote. Wait what Don't? Yeah, oh, I have either ruby or garnet on, but all blues and uh-huh yep love it. So I will post these on socials for people that want to see them. So it looks like we have bloodstone and selenite and we have ruby, vanadonite and lapis lazuli for our crystal prescription for the week and some really great either journaling prompts or you can create some mantras off of it, maybe some guided imagery really good prompts for self-reflection. Again, take what works for you and leave the rest. But that is it for our Behind the HR Door Part 1 episode and I want to thank you so much for sharing your perspective and really kind of having a heart-to-heart for nurses about what will help them the best. I think there's so many things that nurses don't know about it and don't know just how deeply HR as a resource is needed in order for us to make the changes that we want to see happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thank you so much for having me here. I think it's a super important conversation to have. Unfortunately, there's a lot of HR that feels very transactional, yeah, and so I think finding your connection with someone like Reva stated it might not be HR initially, but somebody else that you work with is so, so important and use that to catapult you into continuing your relationship building. Yeah, please send in questions to Reva. If you have them, I would be absolutely happy to give any more color to anything that you guys need.
Speaker 1:Speaking of sending in questions and social media, what other aspects of social media do you love? And I'm asking this in a weird way for a specific reason.
Speaker 2:I love books. That actually is besides going to therapy. That is my outlet for dealing with the stress of life in general. I escape, we do so at Olympic Proficiency. I am an escape artist. Yes, so that is actually part of social media. That's a large part of my free time. Yes, yes, yes is the book, the book world, the bookstagrams and the book talks of the world.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah so on tiktok, I'm sure you'll see some crossover posts between the ritual nurse and my book bestie, because the ritual nurse on tiktok loves book talk as well. I don't review books, but I just try and hide in a corner of the library yes, and just stay there.
Speaker 2:We have invited you in.
Speaker 1:I yes, and we will keep you I just yeah, I want this little corner of the library and I will just sit here like a cat in the library, occasionally creating chaos, but for the most part just quietly subsiding, because I find repose in it as well. And, let's face it, I just love booktops.
Speaker 2:And occasionally I try and snuggle the cat and she fights me.
Speaker 1:Yes, Like to hug me One of the only people that I love hugging. But yeah, for the most part I am like a touch me from over there.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yes, oh no, I was going to smack your hand.
Speaker 1:If this episode has helped you, given you clarity, please share it with coworkers that may be struggling, maybe on the fence, may have questions that they want to ask about. You know HR, or have expressed that they really want, need something. They just don't know how to get it. I think this episode will really help them. If you know a nurse, love a nurse, are a nurse, then this podcast is for you. Please don't forget to subscribe. Check the blog for deeper resources, head over to tcthorg for tools for downloads for much more that bring all of these skills into real life. And in the meantime, this is your ritual, nurse Reba, and I love your faces.