Tourism Matters
Tourism Matters explores careers, capability and the people shaping the tourism industry. Host Carmen Bold speaks with professionals, leaders and educators from across the sector about how they built their careers, the lessons they’ve learned along the way, and where the industry is heading next. The podcast offers insight for anyone working in tourism, considering a career in the industry, or responsible for developing the next generation of talent.
Tourism Matters
Brad Rowe: The Art + Science Behind Memorable Tourism Experiences
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In this episode, Carmen is joined by Brad Rowe, a tourism consultant with deep experience across product development, infrastructure, and destination management.
We explore his journey from growing up in New Zealand to working on major tourism projects in Queenstown and internationally, including large-scale gondola and chairlift developments.
Brad shares practical insights on experience design, what actually drives return on investment in tourism, and how operators can create moments that guests remember and share.
What You’ll Take Away From This Episode
- What “experience design” really means in a tourism context
- How visitor experience directly links to revenue and ROI
- Behind-the-scenes insights into major Queenstown tourism developments
- The shift from employment to consulting in the tourism industry
- What separates average experiences from truly memorable ones
- Why operational detail matters just as much as big ideas
About Brad Rowe
Brad Rowe is a tourism consultant and the founder of Tourism x Design, where he helps tourism businesses and destinations create innovative visitor experiences.
With more than 15 years in the visitor economy, Brad has worked across tourism development, infrastructure, and destination strategy - helping launch new tourism concepts, scale visitor experiences, and support destinations to build more resilient tourism economies.
The career path he followed was not a conventional one - he took some leaps of faith and rode some waves of tourism growth in mountain biking, chairlifts, tech and destination management.
Today he works as an independent advisor focused on experience design, product development, and commercial strategy.
Connect With Brad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brad-rowe-nz/
Organisations Referenced
- Brad Rowe Website: https://bradrowe.me/
- Skyline: https://skylineenterprises.co.nz/
- University of Otago: https://www.otago.ac.nz/
- Maverick Tourism: https://maverick-tourism.com/
- Doppelmayr Group: https://www.doppelmayr.com/en/
- Tourism Bay of Plenty: https://www.bayofplentynz.com/
- Watershed Lake Sauna Queenstown: https://watershedsaunas.com/
Episode Chapters
00:00 – Introduction and guest welcome
01:53 – Queenstown’s unique appeal and personal stories
02:44 – Travel habits and early influences
04:38 – Childhood and education path
07:47 – Choosing tourism as a career
10:42 – Early career and internship experience
15:20 – Skyline Queenstown and mountain biking development
20:28 – Gondolas, chairlifts, and infrastructure expansion
24:24 – International projects and Austrian partnerships
30:29 – Transition to consulting
35:20 – Tourism product development and destination management
37:49 – Visitor experience and ROI
47:22 – Final thoughts and industry advice
Welcome friends to the Tourism Matters Podcast, where I, Carmen Bold, explore the people, careers, and ideas shaping the tourism industry today. This week I sit down with Brad Rowe. Brad is a tourism consultant based in Queenstown, New Zealand, and he is the founder of Tourism X Design. He spends his days helping tourism businesses and destinations create innovative visitor experiences. Friends, this conversation is a real masterclass into the art and science of experience design. And we'll hear from Brad about his career and the real case studies where he has uh ridden some real waves of tourism growth in his area in mountain biking, chairlift, tech, and even destination management. So please enjoy the conversation. I'll see you at the end to give my two bobs and my key takeaways. Brad Bro, welcome, welcome to the Tourism Matters podcast. How are you? This is fine. I was going to say morning, but it's afternoon for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Carmen. Yeah, it's beautiful afternoon here in Queenstown.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm very excited all the way from Queenstown, New Zealand, one of my very favourite places and somewhere very, very close to my heart, very on in my tourism career. I spent a year down there with AJ Hackabungees. I haven't been back since 2021, 2020, actually. Just when we were all starting to go, oh maybe I should put some hand sanitizer in my um carry-on just in case, because there's this thing about this flu that's a going around the world. So it was like February 2020 was my last trip to Queenstown. So I'm very pleased to have you here today.
SPEAKER_01No, thanks for having me. And um, it's a beautiful place. Uh and quite like I don't want to say it's a small place, but it's like it's one of those small world places. And I'm I'm in an office at the moment next door to Bungie down on Glenda Drive there. So um looking at them out the window right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'll never forget. I used to go to the Woolworths there. Sorry, listeners, this is a bit of a tangent, but I used to go to the Woolworths there and you'd just be like standing at the um checkout and just like looking out at the mountains and just being like, I can't believe this is what I'm looking at out the window. Yeah, it's unreal. Yeah. Or that that arrival on an aircraft into Queenstown is um unlike no other cycle. So thank you very much for joining me today. And obviously, such an icon globally um for the tourism industry, the oldie Queenstown. So I'm very interested to talk to you today. So before we kick into our conversation, I've got a couple of get to know you questions for me and my listeners. Right. Brad, uh aisle seat, window seat, or middle seat on the airplane. Please tell me middle seat. I'm waiting for someone to say middle seat.
SPEAKER_01No, I think you hit the nail on the head before talking about um flying in and out of Queenstown. I always go for a window.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fair cool. Yeah. Um, and tell me, when you're at the hotel buffet breakfast on the holiday, what are you going for? What are you what's going on your plate or in your bowl? Where are you headed? Eggs, cereal, nothing.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, d depends, I guess, on the mood, but um uh the buffet breakfast I'd go for actually, and something we can talk about today, is is what makes for a good buffet breakfast. And where we are what is and we always my wife and I have uh always talk about going to stay at the QT Hotel in Wellington. We've only ever stayed there once, but it was the best buffet breakfast we've ever had. And um they had like salmon, eggs benedict on their buffet, and it wasn't like hundreds of them, you know, just a few. But it was so good. And so um, yeah, I think if you're talking buffets, it it's it's gotta be a good one, and and if it if it is, and if there's salmon, eggs benedict, I'll probab I'll probably So hang on then.
SPEAKER_00What what is it that constitutes the good buffet breakfast for you? The quality of the food or the variety of the food.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and but also that unique aspect of like, wow, what's I haven't seen that on a buffet before, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's also gotta be good because it can't just be Yeah. You know. It can't be crap. That and I and it's difficult to execute on, right? But with buffets. Um my time working in buffet restaurants, but uh do what you're gonna do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I take my hat off. But that is my favorite part of the buffet breakfast is the local fare, seeing something or being able to just try just a little bit of something that you might not normally try.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, well, thank you for that insight. Um, so I want to go right back to young Brad. Are you where did you grow up?
SPEAKER_01Grow up, grew up a little bit all over the show. We lived in Fiji for five years when I was um, you know, born till when I was five, and then back to Auckland after that for a few years for for um school, then on to Nelson for high school down the South Island. Oh, and I've slowly made my way further and further south.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Nelson's kind of where I call home, but um studied in Dunedin and then and then Queenstown's been home since.
SPEAKER_00Um and when you finished high school, did you what did you go on to do further study? What happened when you finished high school?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, finished high school and got into uni at Otago in Dunedin, Otago University, and studied uh a Bachelor of Commer Commerce degree, did a double major in in tourism and management um as a commerce degree.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh did you and did you have a vision of what you wanted to do? Like why did you choose to study that?
SPEAKER_01Well Well, actually I started with tourism tourism and marketing, and then I found marketing I I was more I leaned more towards uh I guess the practical side of things. And and I'm glad I did that. Um it was better suited to to what I um I guess have done since as well. But I I did tourism at un at high school when it was kind of like an optional topic as well in ye uh year 12, 13. Uh and then uh the Otago University Tourism Program was was highly recommended, and uh um also highly recommended as a place to study from my mates. So um that was that.
SPEAKER_00There we go. That's what I'm trying to get to, the real reason.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, as far away from my parents as I could get. Without leaving the country. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Can I how come you chose to do tourism in high school?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great question. Why did I choose to do that? I so I think why I chose to study at high school and at uni is I always knew tourism would make for an interesting sort of subject matter. Like why do people w why do people travel why do they wh why do they choose to go to the places they do and and do the activities that they choose to do? Um when they could go anywhere essentially and do anything. If you're looking at international travel and gonna go to the other side of the world, well, are you gonna choose New Zealand or Australia or Fiji or you're gonna go to Iceland or Norway or some other, you know, w where are you gonna go and and why? When you can choose to do anything in that small amount of free time that you get in your in your year or in your life where you travel, where you're away from work and everything else. And it's also a massive industry. So in my mind, you know, travel is is has been the largest uh export earner, you know, gross domestic product in New Zealand. Um it's number two at the moment behind dairy, but uh I think it'll get back to number one. And and globally, travel is just such a massive industry that I thought the opportunities will be will be really good. And in some ways, there's this um horrible myth about tourism not being a great subject to study, and it and I think in that way it also makes it a a really good subject to study because there's maybe less people choose it, so it helps to stand out a bit more. And um and I I've certainly found the study help me in my career and and anecdotal feedback from from people is is it's good to have that um on your CV.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, well that's interesting. I'll get to that. Um so when you went off to Otago, did you have an idea of what you wanted to do when you finished, or you just thought I'm just gonna go and No, I didn't.
SPEAKER_01No. I th I yeah, I thought the marketing, you know, route, but then when I went down management, that sort of led me down actually. I think I'm heading more towards an operational sort of role and and actually being um a bit more hands-on. And then I that did lead to my first job, which was as an intern uh with Skylight Enterprises, so who run the gondolas in Queenstown and Rotaroo, and they've got these luge sites around the world, and uh not knowing what I wanted to do, getting an internship or a or a management trainee program is what it was called, two-year program. So um uh that was really great in terms of exposing me to the industry and seeing, you know, a real hands-on element of of what you can learn and what opportunities there are, and from you know, frontline to marketing to sales and um in the kit in the kitchen, in the buffet, restaurant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. So you sort of jumped around all the different departments.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you basically it's a two-year program, and you spend six months in operations, six months sales marketing. I spent a few months in Singapore, went to Rotaroa, got to get exposure to everything from um washing dishes to to managing a restaurant with 600 people or working on the operations manager of Deluge in Singapore um for a few months. So um, yeah, it was really awesome learning.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And this was part of your studies?
SPEAKER_01This was a following study.
SPEAKER_00Following, okay.
SPEAKER_01My first job out of study, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. All right, so that wow, that yeah, that's excellent. Do programs like that still exist? I don't know if I've heard of anything like that recently.
SPEAKER_01Uh they it's more common, I think, with hotels and accommodation. They're pretty strong with them. Um the Skyline program was definitely right running for a good few years, and then they started focusing it on the luge, so they would grow up a talent pipeline in New Zealand and then export that to their luge sites around the world.
SPEAKER_00Got it.
SPEAKER_01Not sure if they're still doing it, but it was awesome. So good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that does sound really good. And so, all right, well, what happened after that? So you spent two years bouncing around the place and getting experience, and then what happened?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you get two, it's a two-year program, and the idea is that you then get a job, it's but it's a fixed term two years, there's no guarantee after. And I was coming to the end of my two years going, what am I gonna do? And uh there was talk of op opening mountain biking at the gondola in Queenstown for the first time.
SPEAKER_03Um sorry to interrupt. What year is this, roughly? Okay, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Mountain biking as well at the time wasn't wasn't, you know, probably as big as it is now. And it was a bit more niche, especially in Queenstown, as as Queenstown has become more of a mountain bike destination. But yeah, I I I was privy to some conversations around this this opportunity. And then I said to my boss, hey, can I you need someone to run that? I've just learnt how this whole skyline system works in all the different departments, let me take the best of it to set up this new one and and lead this thing. And um, yeah, story goes, I got the job and and here we are.
SPEAKER_00So I to my listeners, my young listeners or career change listeners here, please listen again. We have another guest who has taken the ball by the horns. Is that how it goes? Bull by the reins, ball by the horns, I think. We'll go with that. And um created an opportunity yourself, Brad. You know, didn't didn't wait for a job to be advertised on Seek and then sort of go through the traditional kind of recruitment pipeline. But um once again, it's just highlighting that in our delightful industry that the tourism industry is and events industry, it's um it's being in the right place and um putting yourself out there and you know being bold enough to say, hey, I I reckon I could do this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. Yeah, it was it was definitely put your hand up and wave and ask and ask again and be persistent with it. And then and then eventually, Brad, yep, you've got the job, you're gonna, you're gonna do this, we're gonna do it. Uh, but there was a a caveat to it, which was you've got four months to make it work because the the board of directors had said, you know, we've got sightseeers coming out, we've got people going to dinner or events, you know, they have weddings up there. You got all of a sudden you've got these dirty mountain bikers coming along, stinking up the cabins, you know, getting them all dirty and all that sort of thing, as well as putting more pressure on the gondola and the and the um operation. So we came up with some framework and you know, of uh I guess some rules of how to how to play. It was basically don't stuff it up because we can't impact our core business just through this mountain biking thing. We also don't know how busy it's gonna be. So so it was a four-month trial to see if we could make it work and then lead into becoming a permanent part of the business, which which it still is.
SPEAKER_00What was the thinking behind sort of why you were introducing mountain biking? If it was really like, you know, we don't want stinky mountain bikers around, you know, impacting the core business.
SPEAKER_01So Skyline's really good at their product development and evolving, and and you look at the gondola now, there's so many things to do when you go up there from the luge to the restaurant to bungee jumping, paragliding. Um, they've been doing uh stargazing up there, guided walks, all these new products that they evolve over time. Um, but they also have their core product, the sightseeing element, which is you know, you just take the gondola up. Uh so there's all there was always this this uh element of what is the next thing? And and in 2010, 2011, this was the next thing, uh, but it came with with some risk and how do you balance the risk and still make it work? And that's um I think it's it's actually an awesome part of the skyline and and what they've what they've built is this this um entrepreneurship and ingenuity from you know, not only from the gond the gondola before the gondola was um Volkswagen uh vans driving up there. Then they got their first gondola, you know, then they built the Luge, which is a crazy idea on its own, um, you know, and then to export that around the world. It's uh it's an amazing story.
SPEAKER_00What um do you know? What when was the gondola built?
SPEAKER_01The first one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh they celebrated 50 years recently, so yes, in the 60s. Yep with tiny little pod cabins, and before that, yeah, driving people up there to go and have morning tea up the top of the hill with their um combi vans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think even that even that's a cool story of the small business slowly evolving and growing into what it is now, but it's a 50-year journey to get there. It's not this you know, overnight thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so so iconic in Queentown, isn't it? Um all right, so you obviously succeeded in in your four-month timeline. And we did, yeah, yeah. Well d well done. And um so did you carry on then working for what happened after that four months? You've got great, Brad's done it, or your team has done it, and what happens?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so then we went for season two, and we it was the first season was January till May. We then changed the dates and we went from it was around September till April, because we're a little hugging the winter there. It was getting a little bit cold and dark in May, so we we brought that back. We still had to man manage some of the operational elements like uh not opening it, mountain biking at Christmas and New Year was just too busy to operate the mountain biking. But it was actually to your point about seasonality, it was a great way to you fully utilize the gondola outside of those times and bring locals back up to the gondola, you know, people who love mountain biking, because the trails off of there, right in the middle of town, um, were amazing. And all of a sudden you're connecting it up. So yeah, I did I did continue there for maybe another four um year-on-year seasons after that. Yeah, for big quite big seasons, because you're you're talking sort of seven or eight months of of operations with a month at each end to prepare and wind down and then a little holiday before you get back into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what was your role there? Operations?
SPEAKER_01It was the mountain biking manager.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Just looking after the mountain biking.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. So what in practical terms, what does that what give me an example of a week?
SPEAKER_01Oh, uh, so you have you have your operational team, people um loading the bikes on, you have your ticketing, but you're integrating with the the skyline ticketing team to do that, and then the trails, the maintenance and management, and there's a whole lot of um layers of who owns what and the council land and reserve land and and um managing the weather and everything that goes with with that, and your local stakeholders like the Mountain Bike Club, through to your marketing and your athletes who had come through and and how you're actually growing that destination proposition as well. Um yeah, so it was it was awesome because it was so varied. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I I think that's the beauty of um many roles in the tourism industry is that you're not confined to your cubicle to work on your one thing. Just by nature of the industry or the different, you know, like you just touched on then the stakeholders and partnerships and you know marketing and everything, all is so intertwined together that it's almost impossible just to have one person working on or one team working on one particular aspect of the business without touching other ones and being involved in other ones. Um, surely does make for an interesting day, week, year life. Would you agree?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Because yeah, the the variety was was awesome. It wasn't just open and close, you know, it was it was um what's gonna happen today. Definitely an element of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, cool. Okay, so four years, five years?
SPEAKER_01Something like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, all right, and then what's next?
SPEAKER_01So what's next after that? I then went and got a I got a job with a company called Doppelmeyer who build the gondolas and cheerlefts.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So the company that supplies the gondola to Skyline is called Doppelmeyer, an Austrian company, but they have a New Zealand sub subsidiary. And basically I'd I'd learnt to that I actually loved that project element of mountain biking, of setting something up, setting something new up, and even the seasonality, because every season was almost a project, because you got to close the season off, uh, figure out what you're gonna do better, you know, figure out what you're not gonna do again, and then go again, which was this clean sort of slate. And then all of a sudden, um Doppelmeier had a really exciting sort of pipeline of work for the next sort of five years, um, that was you know, new gondolas and purpose-built mountain biking chairlifts, um loose chairlifts, a bunch of a bunch of exciting opportunities. Um, so yeah, I got that job, which took me to Christchurch. Uh must have been about 2014, 2015.
SPEAKER_00Right. So, what was the job? What was your job title?
SPEAKER_01It was something like sales and operational coordinator.
SPEAKER_00Something.
SPEAKER_01Something guy.
SPEAKER_00It was a sales and operations guy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, basically do anything guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01Because what I what I knew when I I joined the company um, but also learnt was at the time there was there was only one other full-timer in the New Zealand. So I went from like a couple of thousand people with Skyline to one other um job wire staff member in New Zealand. Because basically they'd had a um these gondola and cheerleaf projects kind of go in waves, depending on like the global travel cycle. But travel 2015 would come out of GFC 28, 2008, 2009, and travel and tourism was just going like this, and New Zealand tourism was going like that. So therefore the demand for skiing, like sightseeing was going up as well, and then uh especially the ski areas were had a growing demand for these, um, for this sort of infrastructure, and that's where I was like, wow, that sounds really exciting, building um chair lifts on. ski areas and on mountains all around the country. Uh and and that's what I what I set off, yeah, to go and spend a few years doing that.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So what can you explain that job to me a little bit more?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I so in the end I was I uh the company definitely grew. We we went on this journey. Um I started with building a chairlift at Mount Hutt um on the tools which was which was super cool because you know nothing like learning how to do a job than by actually doing it. Wow but realizing I'm not I'm no uh tradie right um but but learning and just just being willing to jump in and give it a go was was invaluable for the next sort of five years that I spent and actually ongoing and I still do work for them. And we got to build some incredible projects from the Christchurch adventure park New Zealand's longest chairlift in the and the first purpose built mountain biking chairlift in the world.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01Put the first gondola cabins on a ski area at Kajona we're up at Mount Rupehu working on a volcano. Right wow okay yeah yeah super interesting and actually where it all aligned was tourism and management and projects and um understanding uh how these and and how do you design what these this sort of infrastructure so why are you going to put gondolas on a chairlift? How's that linked to product development um you know so now Cadrona can run sightseeing and mountain biking and stargazing and create a better experience for their learners to go up on a gondola and not on a chairlift because a chairlift's scary um all this sort of thing it all really um came together in this role and and it was a um amazing company to work for and it wasn't after five years with them um we were employing sort of 30 people in a summer and uh had eventually built a purpose built premises and a big service workshop and doing all the right things to look after our customers and really went on a on a great period of growth um with them and still working with Skyline which was cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah oh that sounds so interesting. Once again, you know I don't I don't think there's too many people that set out on their tourism career journey, you know expecting to work for an Austrian chairlift organisation. So yeah I I love these just unique jobs that uh I just um you know uncover in these conversations. So thank you for delving into those ones a little bit more. Um so four or five years there did you say at least five. At least five okay and then um you leave oh well you said you're still doing some work for them.
SPEAKER_01So um what what happens in your career journey next Brad Yeah maybe I can give you give you the quick version is I went to work in a product development role with Tourism Bay of Plenty who were doing destination management pre-COVID which was a new thing. They were um uh fully into this idea that you manage the destination and then you promote it you create the right things to do that are authentic to your place and then you um help you know grow that destination in an authentic and sustainable way and product development was something that I'd I'd done and learnt about and uh and actually um yeah really had that really good experience with especially coming out of Queenstown to go and to go and share with with operators up there in the Bay of Plenty so um moved up there with my wife uh and we thought we're gonna do a few years at the beach we're living at you know just near the mount it was amazing we we were a block away from the beach um and not long after I got there White Island blew up which was the kind of hero experience for the region and the real trade really destination you know I it was on the itinerary for people and that's what would bring especially the international visitors there and cruise ship visitors to go and and experience that um but then after that COVID hit and we went okay now we we need to rethink how how we're looking at things and essentially it was it was still great strategy remained the same just the actions changed uh but it what it also meant for us was um moving back to Queenstown after a um just over a year up there we came back to do um to to settle down and do all those good things that um you know we had planned and and when when the COVID machine hit and and changed those plans so that was us coming back here. My wife's from Queenstown so it was um uh coming coming back home for her and a and a good excuse for me to come back as well.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Did you continue working for Tourism Bay Plenty remotely or you left that job?
SPEAKER_01No, I left that job and um you know when I got back home going what am I gonna do uh or got home when I say home to back to Queenstown m making a few calls to people that I knew uh to say hey I'm I'm moving back to Queenstown if you have any work or what uh opportunities do you have or challenges are you dealing with and that's how I've ended up um as a consultant and doing a lot of project based work uh for tourism operators and and people like Doppelmeer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah okay and is this this is during the COVID time that you moved back?
SPEAKER_01Uh after. After okay after yeah we s we we went through COVID up there.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. Right. So um uh I expect Queenstown is probably the same as many Australian destinations where that was kind of a confusing time after COVID. Um where we sort of are we we're coming out are we not oh is this done? Are we what is are we ever going to get back to you know are people ever going to want to travel freely around the world so I expect some of those phone calls that you were making and reaching out to people was kind of in a confusing time for the industry. Is that would that be a fair or was that what was the vibe?
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah yeah confusing we the international borders were still shut but domestic were open and that was a that was the opportunity and whether that was for a council or for a tourism operator it was going how are we going to work with this there was still people travelling around the country so that's all you could focus on so you just did what you could um but having clarity around what actions you're gonna take and how you're gonna approach it that was um that was definitely a good part of the work and and also being a consultant mean you there was flexibility for people to take you on without having to commit. Yeah yeah you could get a piece of work but they wouldn't have to think about oh well how are we gonna cash flow this ongoing as an employee um but yeah it was work around the country as well not just in Queenstown.
SPEAKER_00Okay so before we get into your consultancy I just want to touch on quickly then this shift from being an employee to being um self-employed and w for you at this time was this like this is what I'm gonna do now I'm going to act as a consultant or is was this sort of this is what I have to do now um in in this post kind of COVID era and one day I'll look at being an employee. Where was your head at?
SPEAKER_01It was a bit of it was a bit of both. Um it was also a good time to take some risk when I it was just me and my wife, you know, no kids or at we we were going to build a house in a couple of years so it was like well if you're gonna do it at any point why not have a go now and and and back yourself and and hopefully if it doesn't work out there's there might be a job you can go and find.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But otherwise um yeah see what opportunities are out there and and give it a crack.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And was this something that you had been thinking earlier on in your career that you might want to do or it was?
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah definitely had thought about it and um yeah this was the the time to pull the trigger if if any time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah okay cool yeah because it is definitely a different um mindset I think um well I and and a really large transition um moving from being an employee to being self-employed either with a team or um solo as a consultant. And so I always like to sort of see you know what the what the thinking is around that transition because it's certainly not for everyone and it can be um I speak from personal experience and I also speak from you know these conversations um you know it could be a real like emotional kind of roller coaster yay I'm doing it yay I've got a client this is going to work out and oh no I'm not doing it anymore or you know the things are just constantly shifting and changing when you're acting as a consultant and working for yourself. So it's um certainly not for the faint hearted or the um stable paycheck.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah it's definitely an adventure for sure yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's also good it's good doing it from Queenstown I think it's a good place to be working in that in that space. Yeah yeah well yeah you are in the food bowl the tourism food bowl fruit bowl something I don't know you're in a fruit bowl Brad all right so transition to consultancy and then that this is where you're at still now yeah yeah yeah you sort of built that out over the last sorry what year was this post-COVID so what 201 yeah okay yeah all right so talk to me about that then talk to me about um how that's sort of grown over the years and kind of where you're at now in your consultancy and and where what sort of projects you work on and your kind of expertise yeah so it was a good opportunity to r to really focus in on that product development and experience design element and I knew just from my experience operationally or you know as a supplier to the industry the best businesses offered the best experience but you also had to back it up with the best with a really smart business model to balance all these highs and lows you know of of being an operator and the seasonal swings that tourism brings and how you manage that how so many you know small and medium sized businesses to your point earlier have to find that juggle but I also thought we have to keep evolving in that in the way we Skyline had done it or you know the job whether it was at Cadrona with Doppelmeer um or the the businesses I saw when I was at Tourism Bay of Plenty that evolution is so key to keep meeting the expectations of your global travellers and guests but also keeping relevant on a tourism in the market right when you're talking about product product and what is being sold and what agents are buying or what people are buying on OTAs or you know what are people booking online trying to stay fresh and and relevant to the market. So what what's new at at at in destination as a as a place like Queenstown or what's new at your business when you're an operator having a good story to tell um to really just bring all that together because from what I'd seen it was also always quite separate conversations around product experience selling and marketing and everyone having a different idea of it but I knew that if um if you nail that experience first everything else is a is a domino effect from it.
SPEAKER_00Right yeah yeah yeah okay um so can you give just give me an example or two of maybe clients that you've worked with or projects that you've worked on um yeah over the past few years?
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah sure so uh it ranges from destination product development programs through to uh small new tourism operations and that's I guess part of being a consultant is is being especially I I don't know in New Zealand I think it helps to be able to put on different hats and be able to see it from different angles but also being able to relate to the destinations from working in the RTOs. So I did um some work a really cool program of work with Dunedin uh started last year where we um uh introducing this concept around experience design um through to then a workshop where we actually had 50 different operators in the room and working through these different elements of how to create these really standout memorable experiences and then working with operators after that one to one to go and implement and take action because I think there's nothing worse than a workshop and then you you know and that nothing happens from it. Because you go back to tourism businesses right and it's 247, 365 yeah how do I find the time to go and implement that stuff yeah that we're talking about in the room. So having that actual accountability and support to to make it happen.
SPEAKER_03That sucks that sounds great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah that and they were awesome Janine's a great place too it's like how do you bring this all together to have a really attractive destination proposition of really amazing unique authentic things to do in Dunedin. So that's part of the work I do with destinations through to uh a couple of cool businesses that I helped this year. One is this new floating sauna in Queenstown called Watershed which I think is a really great complementary experience to Queenstown uh where it's a floating sauna on the lake so you actually jump into the lake after or before you've had had the sauna your view is just looking out it's the best view in town. It's like l more than lake front it's lake it's on lake.
SPEAKER_00I don't even know what the term is for lake on.
SPEAKER_01Lake front lake on yeah yeah so um and I think it's be gonna be interesting to see how winter goes but I think it'll be it'll go super well you know post skiing or you know if it's a wet day on the mountain or um or even just after a high hike in May when it's still a bit cold or even in the middle of summer we get we still get snow on the mountains here in summer right yeah and that lake is freezing cold all year round.
SPEAKER_00Yep I can attest to that now there's a sauna on lake and we can look we can look at Queenstown from on lake I think I'm gonna trademark that term um no no no what was it was Lake On. Lake on Lake on not like front lake on I'm just particularly interested in visitor experience and um I guess experience design from a with a commercial lens for operators. Because um as we spoke about before recording I think that as you've alluded to visitor experience is sometimes for small and medium businesses an an afterthought or a not at all thought or something we'll get to when we've got the time thought but it is really really critical um when it comes to ROI um or you know the commercial feasibility of a business. Can you can you speak to that and um and tell me what you see and what your thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's both uh you know there's an art and a science to it because you don't want to just be doing all this there's so much you could do with experience design and and the experience that you offer as a business but you also want to come back to actually yeah how does does this add value to the to the guest you know and how does this um how do we stand out how does this fit with our business and I just think trying to offer the best possible experience is a great business strategy because and this is what I focus on that the art and the science of it is that create creative juice that you deliver something memorable you know is your business going to be the story that people tell when they go home and say people say how was your trip to New Zealand or to Perth or or you know wherever and are they going to talk about your business because it was memorable or are they going to talk about something else? And I think that's where we want to play and if you're if you're memorable these are the businesses that get shared people talk about they go back again they do your marketing you know for you that they're willing to spend more when you're engaging them on that emotional level and that's that science element to it which which I I like love to break down into going actually what are the emotions you're trying to create and not just to be airy fairy about it but to actually go that's what's going to trigger that that response and being really intentional about that design with it. So you've got to have the two key parts when I look at a tourism business is this experience you've got to have a great experience and then if you have a really good business model that matches up with it that's the best of both worlds but you can't make it on your on just experience alone if your business model doesn't back it up you don't know how you're gonna you know meet the requirements numbers make the sales that you need to make but you can have a great business model but if your experience sucks well no one's gonna talk about it or come back to you or do all those things that you want to happen anyway. And um it's bringing both of those things together in in that creative way but also coming back to that ROI and going, yep, this is making the experience better at the same time.
SPEAKER_00And then when you speak about experience are you talking about you know from the first time they might land on your social media or your website through like the whole booking process and what what that all looks like through to the experience itself and then what if anything happens after?
SPEAKER_01So I'm I'm talking about the actual experience when you arrive physical physically in person. Yeah and I'm in the office of a company called Data Data Story at the moment who um uh are who I work with some overlap with sometimes because they're all in that digital space but if you have a really clear definition of your experience and what you're about and who you're offering it to and and what the journey you're gonna take people on, real clarity on what that all looks like, you can share that with your digital partners or you know whoever your other suppliers or consultants or marketing companies you might have to go, this is what we're about and this is how we want to make people feel and the journey we're going to take them on and what they're gonna talk about after specifically to then go and make sure all those other bits happen and it's all cohesive. It's not we get marketed something and we experience something else and then you know it's it's incongruent. You want them to enter your world right and that's totally from the the uh dream plan stage and then through the book and then when they arrive how are you gonna um really make it memorable not the whole thing has to be crazy but um you know talking about a floating sauna on the lake in Queenstown or um a great product or experience that I worked with Zach from Maverick who you've had on on your show before we worked on a on a cool new um multi-day walk in the North Island um this year it was called Real Native and it was we did the it was really cool because we did that process together he was on that marketing and digital side and I was on that experience in the um business model side and building it um at the same time to go what do those days look like and obviously you have the owner there as well but um as farmers we were coming to bring that tourism expertise to go yes this is going to add a new revenue channel for your farm and being able to tap into that agritourism market but also making sure you integrate it well with the tourism um industry and and the way um we can make this the best multi-day walk in the country right I think this is this are like just great questions to a ask to to go be bold and and if you're offering that best experience and you're gonna do this for the long term that's that's gonna that's a great strategy to have that sounds like a dream team Zach Watson and Brad Rowe. Imagine having you two guys Imagine having you two guys in the room brainstorming even better he was he'd done his Lincoln time so he knew more about about the farming than I did. So yeah yeah made sure we uh talk the talk and then uh get into the tourism side of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh yeah that's um oh man I just wish every tourism operator could um have that kind of expertise um to really think about this sort of stuff you know from either from inception or at least you know at some point and I just I feel like a lot of operators just don't have the ability to engage um professionals like yourselves to just ask these questions. And I think that's so great when um RTOs or destinations can hold these types of um programs and workshops for the operators to be able to access and just um get their creative juices flowing in their own minds. And then have some yeah do you speak about or touch on workforce and training and development of staff because obviously I mean after spending years at AJ Hackett Bungee and a variety of other adventure tour operators and many years on the front line I know how important it is um to for that those frontline staff um to uh really uplift a visitor experience. And so is that something that you speak about as well or work on um with operators when you're coming up when you're looking at their visitor experience?
SPEAKER_01So s sometimes I can get called in just to help With a a session or a post-summer, you know, workshop to go, how what are we going to do with this experience that we've been doing for 20 years? How are we going to shake it off and make it different? You know, because some companies have the expertise in-house, but they just need some fresh thinking or some, you know, diff ask some different questions to get that creative spark going. And that might just be that experience tweaking or design element rather than a full new product. Um, so I've done that before, and that's really cool where you get to get in the room with some of the um definitely when you're talking about operational people, like people who are great at making sure the boat leaves on time and all the safety checks have been done, and all the staff are wearing the right uniforms and everything's in place and it's perfect. But then you've got to bring in that the the experience element and make sure that they're thinking about, okay, how are we gonna blow our guests away again and again and again on this trip? When we are doing the same trip we might have done a hundred times this year. But that's also where that experience design element, I think, is so interesting because especially if you're able to give them a bit of um empowerment around how that experience plays out, that they can change things up and and run it differently, not necessarily every time. But we can get so good at operationalizing things and the processes and our SOPs, but then we lose that room to flex when we see an opportunity and to jump on it. But then you bringing up that conversation, and I think again and again and again, and it might start with a workshop or talking to a team, um, to then build in, build it into the way they operate, that they do go out and do things differently or adjust to suit when they when, you know, different scenarios play out, when the weather gets bad, what how are we gonna, you know, make sure our guests are still having a good time when they're just sitting there waiting for the plane to leave or the boat to, you know, get going, or we've missed our trip, you know, what what are we gonna do to make sure that they feel valued and then give them everything, every part of that is an opportunity and the experience. Um and it doesn't make it mean it's easy, but it does mean yeah, having the conversations and and having some sort of level of empowerment around it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's so interesting. I could really keep going, but I shall not keep going because we're gonna get further down the rabbit hole. I will just add that that is a really good point. And that from my experience in adventure tourism, obviously safety is number one. Bar none. Um, so you obviously need a personality type that can um execute on that a hundred, two hundred times a day. But also being able to um pull out of that personality a customer-facing kind of version of them. So, you know, the the visitor doesn't go, gosh, I feel like I'm his 200th spongy job today. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, so yeah. That's we're talking about what the experience looks like, not just from like company values, but the behaviours that we we go and do things like this, and then you have like examples of what that could look like. Can we take that further and what would that look like? And then you can go, no, that's too far, you know, or that's no, this is the right zone. And then your staff go, oh okay, I can go out and do that. I can go and um make the rules a little bit, right? If it's in line with with what your company is about, but it's not just saying things up on the wall that you know, and they're talking about, oh, we have fun. Well, what does that look like? Because it's very different for different business from bungee. Who are you gonna get? And you're talking about emotions of what that looks like to go into a bungee to a hotel, which is trying to say their version of fun is gonna be very different and how they bring that out with their guests. Um so just real clarity around it and really, really bringing it up so you're not just talking about that process stuff all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is so interesting. All right, I'm gonna stop talking and asking questions now. But um, have you got anything you'd like to add or say um to the audience before we sign off today?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think when you're talking about experience design, it's just this never-ending journey, right? The exp the I haven't met a company that says, yeah, we're nailed it, our experience is done, it's finished. So it's just always getting better in terms of um the experience you're offering, always looking at it with a fresh approach and and then um being willing to to change it up, you know, and even coming back to that idea of the mountain biking was a trial. Testing things is always um possible, giving your staff the frameworks and the rules to work within, and then uh helping them to execute on it so they have a great time. You start your guests have a great time and and then the business wins at the same time as well. Um I think it's it's just a great recipe and and uh yeah, we can we can all go and get on with it and and do it and make sure we honour these guests who might come from the other side of the world who've spent a year planning a trip, here they are on your doorstep, and and how we're gonna look after them. That's that's the bigger picture behind it all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's so right. And I know I said I wasn't gonna say anything else, but also um, well, yeah, um you know, your visitor experience or your user experience or whatever you we want to call it, it can it can't ever be done. You know, like the expectations of consumers and travelers is constantly changing and you have to keep, and even with, you know, new demographics of travelers and you know, you you have to keep your experience kind of evolving to um meet the needs of the market. Um authentically, and you know, obviously aligned with the business and the destination. But um, if you're not offering, you know, if the market changes and you're not offering a product to suit anymore, um then um you're in trouble.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you can't take it for granted. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No. All right. Well, thank you so much. Now I implore my listeners to um I'll put the link to um Brad's LinkedIn in the show notes and also to Brad's webs Brad's website. Um, but I implore um any um business owners who are out there or um RTOs or or anyone looking after destinations to get in touch with Brad because um I'm fangling here. He I could just talk to him forever. You're um you've got so much knowledge in this area, and I really appreciate you taking the time today to come and share it with me and the listeners.
SPEAKER_01Cool, it's been fun. Thanks, coming.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. All right, I'll see you later.
SPEAKER_01See you, bye.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Right. Well, huge shout out to Brad for uh taking the time to sit with me this week. That was uh a riveting conversation for me. I have a real particular soft spot for experience design, having worked on in the frontline of experience delivery over the years in a number of different roles. And I I particularly love how Brad manages to link the experience design back to real commercial ROI for a business. And also that notion that um you can't just create a visitor experience and then never uh revisit it, refresh it. Um the market changes and the needs of travellers change. So I thought that was such an important point and important distinction um to make there. So thank you, Brad, for being so generous with your uh uh knowledge. So, friends, if you enjoyed the podcast, please share with your colleagues and friends. Um you know that I believe the tourism industry deserves to be seen as a reputable and a viable career choice. And my aim is to use the podcast to help the tourism industry be seen in that light. I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn, look me up at Carmen Bold and look Brad up at Brad Rowe. I'll link to um all of Brad's uh assets uh in the show notes. And feel free to send me a message if you think you'd be a great guest or if you know someone that would. And while we're here, make sure you hit all the buttons, uh share, like, subscribe, follow. And until next time, just remember that tourism matters. I'll see you next week and thanks for listening.