Whole society resilience: A deep dive

In Episode 9 of the Climate Resilience Podcast, Phil is joined by JBA's Emergency Planning Lead Toby Jones and Global Resilient Cities Network's Karl Astbury. Together, they dive into whole-society resilience, exploring how communities, businesses and governments can work together to build a more inclusive, people-centred approach to resilience.

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SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Climate Resilience Podcast brought to you by JBA Consulting. I'm Phil Emundsen, and in this podcast series, we unpick some of the complexities, challenges, and opportunities on the topic of climate resilience with some inspirational thought leaders. And today's episode is no exception. I really do have two great guests lined up. Now the National Resilience Framework states that resilience should be a whole society endeavour. And that's our topic for today, whole society. We've touched on it in other episodes. In episode 7, for example, we explored how social value can play a role in helping us to engage with the whole of society. But the concept of whole society comes with its challenges, so let's dive in. My guests today are JBAs Toby Jones and Carl Asprey from the Resilient Cities Network. A very warm welcome to you both chaps, and perhaps you'd like to introduce yourselves. Toby, if you could go first.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, sure thing. Toby Jones from JABA Consulting. So I've been at JBA for four years now. I'm the emergency planning lead. Um gives me an opportunity to do all sorts of things from flood response planning to training, exercising for major events, um, and long kind of diagnostic kind of work as well. In my past, I used to work at the Environment Agency, uh, working in flood preparedness and response. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Thanks, Toby. And Carl.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yes, so thanks, Bill. Um hello, and thank you for for having me on this great podcast. Um, my name is Carl Asprey, I'm from the Global Besilience Cities Network, and I work as a lead for climate and health, having previously worked for many years within local government within Greater Manchester on emergency planning, response and recovery, disaster risk reduction, and all things urban resilience for the city region of Greater Manchester. Um, in my current role, I've been working on a program called Resilience for Communities and with the support of the Zurich Foundation. And this aims to build and develop community resilience initiatives against climate hazards. So very fitting to this conversation. Um, and in my role as a resilience practitioner, you know, one of my big focuses is on trying to bridge that gap between high-level climate strategies and actually what's happening on the ground in our communities. And I think, you know, to I suppose to kick us off, whole of society resilience means everybody has a voice and everyone has a role in preparing for climate impact. So whether that's residents, businesses, NGOs, local, national government, infrastructure operators. Um, because you know, not one of us can tackle the challenges of climate change alone. So I'm really looking forward to digging deep into the conversation with Toby and yourself, Phil.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Cheers. Thanks, Carl. And uh well, that's that's probably the the place to start here is that you, as you rightly say, across the whole of society, there are so many different voices and actors, and and we need to hear from all of them. Um, and and every every voice in that conversation is entirely valid. But perhaps trition traditionally we maybe haven't given equal representation to to all voices. So I suppose the place I'd like to start is, and you've touched on it there, Carl, is how do we achieve that balance? So I'm gonna throw that back to you to start off, actually, Carl.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, yeah, no worries. So yeah, whole society resilience, you know, I suppose it clips in the name, it's about broad-based participation in in all things resilience. And it means engaging with you know all stakeholders. And this includes, you know, when we when whole society resilience isn't just a another term for community resilience. You know, this is about government agencies, local and national government agencies, it's about scientists, it's about businesses, volunteers, and it's about citizens. Um, and we need to include within that those who are often marginalized or most vulnerable to the impacts of climate change. And it's really important to remember in the conversation that you know those that have done the least to cause climate change often bear the brunt of its impacts. So we need that collective, inclusive action across different sectors, across communities to really build resilience. And I think there's a there's a big shift um from the old top-down mindset. Um, and you know, what we need to try and instill is that sense of co-ownership in resilience decisions and actions and collective learning across diverse groups. And one of the things that we'll most probably um kind of repeat again and again in this conversation, you know, that building of trust that I really do think we've got a deficit of trust in society at the moment, which is something which is really important in my view, um, when we think about whole of society resilience. I'd really keen to to to hear from Toby and your work and maybe um maybe your take on the on the role of trust.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think in my situation, in my role, I've got a very interesting angle that I get to have a lot of conversations with residents, with businesses, and then with kind of large corporations and public sector. So it's a very interesting slice of the pie that I kind of get to get to be a part of uh or get to listen in on. And I think it's a very interesting one where when you have the kind of conversations around trust, it's quite clear, kind of think you kind of hear about a lot in the news and kind of the lack of trust in a situation. When a shock event happens, for example, if you've got a flood or kind of major event, terror attacks, then the information that's being shared down often isn't received very well because there is that lack of trust up at the kind of um up with the kind of high governmental level. So I think you're exactly right. Like, how do you build up that relationship? So there is that trust at that foundational level. And I think a huge aspect of it is giving a voice to all the people, as you said, Phil. Then how do you do that when we got one organization, let's say you've got a council at the top where something's happened trying to talk back down? But then you've got a thousand, a hundred thousand voices trying to speak up. How do you listen to each one of those and give them actual value and give them the time that they need to discuss that? It's a really interesting, it's a really interesting problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Phil, I don't know if you have any thoughts on Well, I I think um I think there's something here around the value of lived experience. I think what you've sort of touched on there, Toby, you know, the the the traditional approach is is that we might see an organization like a local authority, perhaps, um, you know, maybe engaging with scientists, engineers, um, to solve a problem. And that is that that would use you know data, um, empirical evidence, um, and that is then presented back to those who are affected um as as a statement of fact. And that is one voice. But actually, what we don't necessarily do is is value or provide equal balance, perhaps, to those who have the lived experience. And there's a there's a there's a point here, I think, around storytelling and the value of storytelling, um uh and um how we can give time and space for those who have been impacted or who have local knowledge to really bring those valuable contributions to the table and how we balance that against what is seen as as fact, as evidence from yeah, from scientists who who use who use data. Um, Carl, I don't know necessarily from your work in an IM Manchester whether there's any sort of case study or or or um sort of example of of this idea of this trust deficit, or um, I suppose the counter to that, which is um, which I think was a phrase you used, Carl, which is co-ownership. So we've got two things here, haven't we? We've either got co-ownership or we've got um that that sort of trust deficit. And I'd be interested to see whether you've you've got a good case study of either, actually.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, sure. So I think in terms of the communities that we've been working with within Greater Manchester and the data we collected working with and alongside those communities, we we found there's you know there is a lack of trust in public agencies, lack of trust uh in terms of the the work that they do. And when when you know you get that lack of trust, people feel that they've just been left behind. And actually, public agencies don't care. And you know, I know for my work within local government that's not the case. You know, that's certainly not the case, but the that something's happened where that connection between communities and public agencies in some places has been has been lost. And yeah, I think that co-ownership point is really important, and you know, co-creation is really important, but we've got to be really careful that these don't become just buzzwords, and it does take effort to co-create solutions, and it's not just a case of um walking into a community space and then having a single workshop and then going, right, I've ticked that box, uh, co-created something with the community. It you know, there's a need for continual engagement and communities and uh and and those those with lived experience, you know, they um they may need time to kind of get their heads around some of the the things that we deal with on a day-to-day basis. And so you've got to give them that time, you've got to make them feel comfortable, um, and then you you're gonna you know you're gonna get some really interesting ideas and solutions. And you know, it's how do you you know how do you build in that participatory decision making or or co-creation kind of framework within the work that that that that we that that we that we all do. Um and it's it yeah, it's tricky, but yeah, I think when you've got when you so I I talk about sometimes trying to flatten those hierarchies of knowledge, and I think you know often we have yeah, we put certain voices and certain opinions above others. Um and actually we need to flatten it. Yeah, that's not to say that you know the um the voices of you know within the community have all the answers, they won't because they won't have the technical knowledge to be, you know, they yeah, they they may they may not understand hydrology or they may not have that engineering experience and they may not be a scientist, but also they've got that thing called lived experience, they've got that local knowledge, they know exactly where, for example, their community floods on a regular basis, which may not show up on on some of the flood maps. Um, and it's how do you marry those things together, that technical knowledge, that scientific knowledge, um, with the lived experience, with that local knowledge. And then how do you foster that kind of partnership where the solutions are kind of co-owned, co-main maintained, and and then you get to this wonderful position where the you know things are are successful, you know, the interventions end up being more successful because the community are on side, um, and it's been a co-created, co-developed um uh initiative.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, yeah. And I think you're right. The these these phrases like co-creation, co-ownership, if we are not careful, it could become almost a little bit like the phrase resilience, the term resilience, which is it becomes ubiquitous, but we we we risk losing its meaning a little bit. What you touched on there, Carl, takes us to I think the heart of a of another topic here that we can explore, which is around um community whole society consultation and and engagement. And Toby, I I want to bring you in here because I know you've been doing some work on one of the uh flood and coastal erosion uh resilience innovation programmes, the FCRIP work, um, which might um which might flood a case study perhaps to talk about. But thinking about how as practitioners in in the space we can plan, design, conduct community engagement and consultation that allows the whole of society then to not only be heard, but to actively participate. So that as Carl said, we then end up with a better, a better solution at the end. I don't know what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I think it's a really important one, Phil, and you and I talk about quite a lot around bringing that engagement to the residents, to the communities, to the organizations that you want to speak to, asking them to come to you. People just haven't got the time, they haven't got the headspace. It's not something that's gonna work really. Having the classic, you know, having a community event in the church hall on a Tuesday evening isn't gonna work anymore. What we've got to do is bring it to them. So Resilient Together is building a smart catchment um in a kind of pilot catchment in kind of between central Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire. And it's a really good example um of this kind of engagement where there's a couple of really interesting ones. One is they've run a World Cafe in collaboration with the London South Bank University, which is where they brought the community together and it was a listening exercise. So it was an opportunity for the staff and those who I have the kind of you know the influence, I guess I would say, um, in managing kind of flood risk in the catchment to come and not speak, to come and listen. And I think that was a really powerful activity to get to do. Um, because how often do we actually do that? We often go with an agenda, we have a message to give, we've got lines to give, but actually going to them without any messages, without any lines, without any judgment, and just saying, talk to us, tell us about the chronic issues, tell us about the shock events, what's on your mind, what are the problems, what do you think the solutions are? And that's such a powerful, uh, powerful way of engaging, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

It it it does, and it it creates that safe space for people to feel engaged. And I I've I've heard of some really good examples um over the last year or two of um, as you have said, Toby, um turning engagement uh planning on its head. So yeah, let's not hire the village hall on a on a on a dark Tuesday night in February um at six o'clock when families just won't come out. They'll be they'll be you know helping the children with their homework, doing the baths, or it's just too um dark and miserable to come out. But but actually going to places where community already assemble. So go to the park run on a Saturday morning because hey, a lot of a lot of folk will turn out and they're and they're there. Um and and I think that's a really good technique, actually. Um, and I love the idea of this listening cafe. Carl, I'd love to bring you in again on this point then, this idea of how we can um conduct and and plan consultation that just allows everyone to participate.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah, no, and it's really great to hear from Toby around the listening cafe. I think cafe is the the word of the year, maybe. Because one of the things that we, you know, and I fully agree with everything that's been been mentioned earlier. Yeah, it's that meaningful engagement versus a you know, a kind of checkbox exercise and going to the community where they are. Um, last summer we ran in one of the communities we've been working with, which is actually in Stockport, we developed a kind of community activation program. Um, and we took over a derelict school, which was um which is owned by the by Stockport Council, and we turned it into what we called the What If Cafe. And that really was a place where any member of the community could come along and just sit down and have a cup of tea, and and leave if they wanted to. They could pick up some you know fruit and veg, have a chat with their neighbours, but also they could try to, and what we tried to do gently is try to get them to think about okay, what could this space be for the community? How could it be of value? What's the future that you want to see for this community? And over time, over a period of two to three months, you begin to get some of these really great ideas, and you begin to then foster this um kind of almost uh you know, a fully activist network of people who then want to go out and deliver things which are going to contribute to the resilience of the local community themselves. Um, and that's where the that kind of cultural shift comes in. Because we we you know it has the the stuff that has to be delivered by big agencies, big infrastructure projects, but there's stuff that can happen at that community level. And you know, when we think about resilience and when we think about when the shock events happen, it's those your local neighbour that's most probably the the the most important person um or the you know the people who you you're you're you're close to who are the most important people um in you know at that you know immediately after that that particular shock event. Um so this you know this idea of a of a safe space where community communities don't feel like they're being talked to, but where that they're generating the conversation, they're generating the ideas. And then you can bring in technical experts to kind of meld and mold and you know, kind of build upon and iterate upon those ideas with the community, and and then you get something really magical, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. And it and it and it it challenges perhaps that traditional, again, that traditional approach to how we consult and how we engage, which which probably would have been a deficit-based approach. We would have looked at what was um what was important to us to convey and what was wrong in that community, what's the problem we're trying to solve, rather than thinking about what's important to them and what's what's strong, what are the strengths, what are the assets that are already strong in that community that we can build out from and create that that that sense of momentum and um build it around the sort of asset-based community development model, the ABCD model, which um uh which you know we're all sort of quite familiar with. And in in a way, then this, I mean, it it's it's brilliant the way this conversation's going. Um I I'd like us to think then about those assets within the community, be they physical assets or social assets, um, but assets that exist, things that are strong within a community already that we can harness and how what what role those assets can play in helping us to build that whole society resilience. And and Carl, maybe you'd like to come back on that one first.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, I love that phrase. You know, um, you know, instead of focusing on what's wrong, we should intentionally look for what's strong. So I think we're gonna steal that. Um the yeah, an asset-based approach is really important rather than a deficit-based uh uh approach. Um, you know, I think you there's a danger that people parachute in solutions that have no community grounding, and actually building resilience based on what's already there and strengthening and connecting those local capacities is is essential. And I think you you know you touched on two of the things you know around you know the physical infrastructure and the social networks, and social capital is so important to resilience. I think you build in that kind of financial capital, um, you've got the kind of natural capital as well, which is really important in terms of the um the resilience of a of a space. Um and yeah, just to bring in another example from the work that I've been doing in Greater Manchester, there's a there's uh a community um called Higher Folds, which is in Lee, which is within the borough of Wigan. Um and it's uh you know, it's a relatively isolated estate, it's got high levels of deprivation. Um, but one thing it has in absolute abundance is community spirit, real community spirit. And we we found this really tight-knit social fabric there. You know, they have really strong bonds and they look out for one another. Um, and they've been flooded numerous times, and the community all comes together to try and support each other during those events, but supporting each other on their day-to-day challenges that that they face as well. So, you know, my role in working with that community is to kind of acknowledge that, support that, nurture those seeds, you know, nurture those seeds and and and propagate those seeds and and then also to go, okay, what's worked and and how can we spread those seeds to to to other communities and how can we bring in ideas from other places within within Tire Folds? But yeah, there's yeah, it's it's it that asset-based approach is is really key. Um, and we do always, you know, I think some of the phrasing we we you know sometimes we label whole communities as vulnerable. They're vulnerable. And do you think that community you know would like to be um I don't know, kind of identified just through its vulnerability? Um yeah, I think and and vulnerability does exist, but we need to be specific about you know which groups are vulnerable and to what, um, instead of labelling whole communities as vulnerable. And and we should instead be looking for what's really strong within that community and what can we build, build on. And I think that's where you get, you know, that's that should always be the starting point in the foundation, uh, in in my view.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, yeah. It's a lot, there's a lot to come at there um with what you've you've said, Carl. Um, in particular these these capitals, and I'll come back to that in a minute. But Toby, um any any thoughts from You on what Carl's just been discussing, particularly around sort of, you know, the use of community assets, um, etc.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah, I think, well, just to start, I think that stories like that, and you've got case studies like that, they're just so it's really inspiring to kind of see where it's not necessarily the kind of the organizations that are the engine, it's the community that's the engine. And then as you said, it's kind of nurturing or kind of guiding something that already exists and that's there. And I think that's the fundamental thing behind a lot of whole society resilience. It's it's not creating something new, it's just helping to give a little bit of structure around these existing, I often refer to them as like hubs and links. So, like having your assets, your things in the in your area, which are the things that are valuable, and they're there. You've got businesses who are desperate to reach out to their community and work with them and provide that social value, but they don't know how. And providing those links, and again, those links often exist already. You've kind of got business in the community, you've got chambers of commerce, you've got all sorts of places that you could be going to to link up and connect with these organizations and linking them with those communities. So by strengthening those links and linking up the hubs, you suddenly create this network that was already there. The help is there somewhere. It's just about connecting the right people to create that resilience.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah, just to come in on on that, yeah. I think there's you know, there's a danger, actually, some of the you know criticisms um around um whole society resilience center on, you know, is this just passing the book to communities and government steps back and say, right, it's your responsibility, see you later. Um, and yeah, I don't think that that's the case at all. And and it's not about government stepping back, but it's about governments and local governments and national governments' role shifting to kind of enabling and supporting communities, and and that means providing funding, providing information and providing frameworks for for then you know the local community to to take those those resources, that information, those frameworks, and and and run with it. Um and I think that it's it's it's a shift really in terms of the role of local government rather than a stepping back.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think um I think uh infrastructure owners have a big role to play in this as well. And I mean Carl, you know, you mentioned you know vulnerabilities to what I think is a really is a really interesting um consideration. And yeah, you know, you uh you know, if you know you can create resilience in a society using you know this this asset-based approach, which we speak, we spoke about, if you can do that, that's fantastic. But if if if they are still vulnerable to you know repeated power outages because of vulnerability in in the power supply, or you know, um there is um a nearby flood alleviation scheme that is um that is uh delayed or that has had funding um uh pulled, or they remain vulnerable to um a certain flow path within the community, then then actually that's where organizations, local authorities, the environment agency, etc., still have that role to play. So it very much is um about alliances and partnerships between society and um those, you know, those agencies. Um I I was really pleased as well, Carl, that you were talking there about capital um and you know, the role that social capital plays within this, the role that that natural capital plays within this, the role that human capital, and I suppose that brings me right back to that that phrase of lived experience right at the beginning, but you know, making sure that individuals within different communities have agency, that they have awareness, they have uh a degree of skill that that can be of value um when there is a shock to their community. Um this has been a really great conversation. I suppose um before we before we wrap up, is there anything that either of you um would like to would like to add to to any of these thoughts that we've had so far?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I've got a quick one that's a bit of a tangent, I must admit. But I think it's an interesting one that it's a book I read a little while ago, You're not listening, by Kate Murphy. Um and it's all about kind of really interviewing and how you engage with people. But one of the skills that she described in this book is when you're speaking and when you're kind of conversing with whoever it is, and for us, let's say residents or even potentially those with the assets that we're talking about. When you're listening, there's this approach of having in conversation a support response and a shift response. And that shift response is shifting onto the topic you want and to the solution that you're looking to get to. The support response is where you're taking whatever they're saying and you're saying, tell me more. Can you tell me a little bit more information about that? Can you give me a little bit more context? And I think an emphasis toward that support response in communications, in engagement, is ultimately where we're heading um with whole society resilience, is not just to take information but to receive as well, as just to kind of take what's given to you rather than kind of seek out something specific. So I think that skill and moving towards that approach, that communicating, I think, as lying at the very base of uh whole of society resilience.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Brilliant. Thanks, Toby. And Carl, I'll give the final word to you then.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Yeah, I suppose it's maybe uh uh uh yeah, I think there's there's so much more that we could discuss, and and Toby's words at the end were fully agree with and and uh and begre. I think that the one bit that you've just touched upon, Bill, around kind of infrastructure operators and uh and uh you know, and and and national government and local government agencies and partnerships, I think is is something that potentially you know could be explored in detail in in another conversation because whole of society does mean you know it's about those national government agencies not working in silos and working together. It's about the infrastructure operators, whether that's water, energy, gas, transport, health, you know, all of those kind of key critical um sectors, how they work together to develop resilience. Because at the moment, and there's that you know, there's there's shoots and things which are happening which are really exciting, such as, for example, in Greater Manchester, there's the integrated water management plan, which brings together you know, the environment agency, United Utilities and local government. Um, but there's not enough of that, and you know, lots of individual agencies or um infrastructure operators or private businesses have got kind of siloed risk assessments for starters, and how do we actually um share those risk assessments, better share data between agencies, um, whilst also bringing it back to the topic of this conversation, you know, taking that real people-centered, community-focused, place-based approach. Um, but yeah, no, it's um been a fantastic conversation, Phil and Toby.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Thanks. Thanks, Carl. And look, inevitably then, and you've alluded to it there, Carl, this is going to be one of those topics that we will add to a quickly and ever increasingly uh large pile of topics that we will return to because we are just starting to scratch the surface of it. It's been it's been really good. So look, Toby, Carl, thanks for your really great insights today. It's been a it's been a super episode. And so we have reached the end of our time together today. As always, if you've enjoyed listening, then please hit the subscribe button so that you're ready for the next episode in a month's time. Till then, thanks for joining us. I'm Phil Emonson, and you've been listening to the Climate Resilience podcast brought to you by JBA Consulting.