Special episode: Hurricane Katrina at 20

In this powerful special episode of The Climate Resilience Podcast, host Phil Emonson is joined by Mannan Donoghoe, a Fellow at The Brookings Institution’s Centre for Community Uplift and co-author of the recently published New Orleans Index at Twenty report.

Together, Phil and Mannan unpack the report, which is a comprehensive look at how the city has rebounded, reimagined, and rebuilt in the two decades since Hurricane Katrina. This conversation examines both the measurable progress and the ongoing challenges of building a city that can withstand the storms of the future. Mannan’s insights, grounded in rigorous social science and informed by global climate justice and environmental policy experience, shed light on how New Orleans has become a living laboratory for urban resilience.

Whether you’re a policymaker, a resilience practitioner, or simply inspired by stories of recovery and transformation, this episode offers a rare blend of data, lived experience, and forward-thinking vision for building stronger, more equitable cities in the face of climate change.

Thank you for listening to this episode. 

For any comments, questions or insights please contact phil.emonson@jbaconsulting.com.

Visit our website jbaconsulting.com
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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Climate Resilience Podcast, brought to you by JBA Consulting. I'm Phil Emundson, and in this podcast series we unpick some of the complexities, challenges, and opportunities on the topic of climate resilience with some inspirational thought leaders. Today's episode is a special, poignant, and reflective discussion as we mark a significant milestone. It's now twenty years since Hook and Katrina devastated the Gulf Coast, and in particular the city of New Orleans. 1,392 people lost their lives, and it caused an estimated $125 billion of damage. Katrina wasn't just a storm, it was a wake-up call that reshaped how we think about climate resilience, urban planning, and social equity. Joining me today is Manon Donahue, a fellow at the Brookings Institution in their Centre for Community Uplift. His work focuses on climate resilience, disaster risk reduction, climate finance, and environmental justice. And his work has helped to illuminate the long-term impact of Katrina and the lessons we need to carry forward. The Brookings Institution is a leading nonpartisan think tank whose aim is to conduct in-depth research to improve policy and governance at local, national and global levels. Manon, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. Looking forward to a really great conversation this afternoon. And perhaps you could start by introducing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

No problem at all. Thank you for having me. I think you've just about captured it all. You know, at the Brookings Institution, actually Center for Community Uplift as well, we sit within Brookings Metro, which is where we do a lot of place-based policy. So a lot of our work is really trying to understand the relationships between people and places and how policy legacies within those places have affected people today and a whole range of issues about how they move through the places in which they live. I lead a lot of our climate resilience work, work on disaster risk reduction. We also do a lot of work on racial equity and social vulnerability. And what else can I add? I was originally from Australian, originally from Australia, Australian, a reformed economist, I like to say now, social scientist. But yeah, thank you for having me here.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Okay, great. And you referenced there then this work around people, place, and policy. And I think we're gonna unpick a lot of that over the next uh 30 minutes or so. Now, look, there's a lot to go at. Um the place I'd like to start though is by diving into your work on climate resilience, uh, what resilience is to you, but but but exploring that in the context of Katrina and New Orleans. And I think the listeners, I'm sure, like me, are gonna be really interested to know what New Orleans looks like now, 20 years on. And I mean that through the physical lens, obviously, but also socially and the policy landscape. So yeah, really, really keen to start there this afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, absolutely. I start by saying that New Orleans has made a lot of progress. You know, it's been 20 years, uh, it's a it's a long, it's been a long time, and looking at data uh across the metropolitan area in a whole range of indicators. You know, we tried to capture a whole range of physical variables, but also social data as well, like on job markets, like on uh economic growth, like on economic diversity for the region. And there's definitely a lot of bright spots. You know, that the economy of New Orleans has diversified. There's more uh and different industries. We see higher rates of entrepreneurialism, um, high rates of startup. There's been improvements in secondary education, uh, improvements in internet access, um, and we also find, in particular, a strong connection of place. You know, people who are born in New Orleans want to stay in their community and contribute to making it better. Uh, you know, that said, uh, in terms of thinking about resilience, which is more than just recovery, right? Which is trying to think about how ready uh New Orleans is for other major events, um, other big disasters at the level of Hurricane Katrina, there are still some challenges, particularly around uh the economy, um, particularly around wealth. Uh, there's still high rates of poverty, for example, in the city, high rates of wealth inequality, particularly along lines uh of race. Uh, and we still see lower rates of home insurance, uh, especially flood insurance, and things like home fortification, making sure uh housing in New Orleans is built to sustain high winds and the like.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, okay, so um a lot a lot there that you've actually sort of introduced um quite early on in terms of the concepts of resilience, you know, that that that it is this, I suppose, cross and multi-sectoral thing that we've explored on other episodes of the podcast. Um, you know, it isn't just about being protected and being prepared or or or you know recovering, um that it spans into economy, um uh wealth, um, things like home insurance, um, preparedness, um, employment. Um there's an area of that which I think you sort of touched on, um, which is this thing of uh I suppose uh uh environmental justice, um which I know is something that you you know you you're particularly uh an advocate for. Can you tell us about the role then that that uh environmental justice has played in shaping New Orleans post-Katrina?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, well I'm sure that most of the folks uh you know who've heard of New Orleans have kind of an image of Louisiana um in their head, probably also um know of the uh the Exxon Vallez uh oil spill. You know, that that huge uh spill, uh you know, millions of barrels of oil, uh, the images of sand and and and seabirds and things covered in oil, you know, that happens in the Gulf Coasts, which is where New Orleans sits. Uh the history of the place is somewhat wrapped up in uh the fossil fuel industry and uh industrial chemical manufacturing, uh the extraction of oils, um, and the transportation of that through the hub of New Orleans, you know, which sits on the Mississippi River, this key kind of port and and river infrastructure that runs really across the whole of the US. Um, you know, these industries bring a lot of uh pollutants with them, right? Uh for the people who live alongside those industries, the health burdens can be immense. And uh one thing that we've tried to do in the series and and that you know my report uh did in particular, I looked at these issues, uh, is to look at the way that pollution and heavy industry can amplify uh the impacts of disasters. So one thing that was clear, you know, looking at um going back and looking 20 years ago when when Hurricane Katrina struck was that uh when it was damaging uh a lot of these industrial um uh processes, you know, you you get big leakages, right? So you get lots of uh toxins leaking into flood waters, and then eventually that would come to settle uh in neighborhoods across the city. Uh so you know greatly exposing residents to pollutants, um, and then also kind of uh amplifying the health impacts as well at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, um and and that was something I perhaps hadn't um associated. I think I think certainly remembering back where I was, you know, 20 years ago and the reports that I I remember and the core, um it it it it it didn't resonate with me until we started our conversation um about the um the connectivity there with uh pollutants in the water and so on. I I you know I can certainly remember that the headlines of the of the hurricane itself and the and the the devastation, but um that's really interesting. Um I mean it's really it's really pleasing to hear that you know 20 years on there are these bright spots that you alluded to. Um that we are now seeing uh a diversification in the economy and that strong connection of place and uh and you know uh resilient resilient places um is a really interesting uh you know concept for me because I I always think that you know uh a place is a or a sense of place is a you know is a is a location or an asset, a a landscape I suppose that where we have a a connection and a belonging to. And you know, resilient places are those that are founded on equity and and and accessibility and and uh you know local need and resilient places can cope with uh climate impacts and ultimately they're designed in a way that that that keep people safe. And and and and coming coming back to that point about the strong connection of of place, um do you do you think that people feel safe now in New Orleans?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Okay, you know, it's it's it's clear that there are challenges that New Orleans and New Orleanians face, uh, particularly you know the need for greater investment in infrastructure to make the place um more resilient and uh kind of more adaptive. Uh what I do think is clear though is you know, to come back to what you were saying about connection to place, is that, and I think I said it at the top as well, like it's a place that people clearly want to stay in, they're invested in their communities. And I think uh part of the history of New Orleans, you know, for those who don't know this, is somewhat is you know a feeling of being uh ignored, you know, within the US. And a feeling that that's one of the big fallouts from Hurricane Katrina, right? Was that um the residents didn't feel like they were getting the kind of support and assistance on disaster recovery that was warranted. Uh, I think partly because of that feeling, you see this strong uh push of community groups within the city. There's, you know, kind of in lieu of a strong uh state, you know, providing all the necessary uh social services, you've got instead the strong community groups. Uh I think if I remember correctly, you know, the nativity rate, which is the amount of people who are born in New Orleans, who live in New Orleans today, is 71%, which is uh very high and much higher than the US average. So, you know, there's something about that place that people want, the people who are from there wanna hold on to and want to make better through how they engage with their communities. And that, you know, that's a part of resilience. You know, when there is a disaster that strikes, then uh you've got these communities to fall back on and to kind of be a bit of a fail-safe for you uh and to help you back on your feet.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah. I love that. I think I think that's really super, and it's um it all comes back to that whole sense of place and and resilient places, resilient communities. Um moving on a little bit, uh you and I had a chat earlier in the week, actually, um, as we were sort of planning this episode, and and you were talking to me about um one of the outputs from the project that you've been working on, which which is looking at metrics for resilience in New Orleans. Now, you know, understand having an understanding of resilience is one thing, right? But having metrics and indicators so that we can measure over time changing levels of resilience and thereby have confidence in our investment decisions and our policy objectives. Well, you know, that's that's another, that's something else. So I'm keen to discuss, um, yeah, I'm keen to discuss the metrics and indicators.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, of course. Resilience is a complex thing to measure, it's not the same as measuring loss and damages, you know, in dollar values after a disaster strikes. Uh, resilience is a more complex concept than that and involves uh a greater array of different kinds of factors. So, you know, for our report, we had kind of four main areas that we looked at, uh, each having uh five or so different data points. So we looked at at a high level housing and infrastructure, um, how effective is you know is our infrastructure as a weathering disasters, uh, economy and workforce, so that that's things like the number of jobs, uh, economic diversification. Uh then we had data on wealth, so that's things like rates of homeownership, um, household income. Uh, and then we also looked at uh people, and that gets to our the point we were just talking about. Uh that's where we look at that kind of density of community groups and how those community groups uh function.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, and so then beneath those those categories, you you had different indicators, different metrics that were giving uh that you know giving you data sets that you could explore. Um what what have the metrics told you then? What what have you learned?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

I mean I think one of the big takeaways is uh coming back to the conversation on you know resilience and how to capture resilience through metrics is you know it's somewhat of an imperfect uh uh science. You know, you're ultimately trying to understand uh how a region or place or people recover uh not just back to where they were before, but also to a place in which you know they're more flexible, more adaptive, and ultimately where disaster risks are reduced uh uh permanently. And you know, trying to get at that data, you don't always have what you'd need. And I think the the data on community organizations is a good um kind of good proxy to understand what I'm talking about. So, you know, ultimately would love to have a measure of like how engaged people are, like how many people are actually going to the community meetings and how many people are actually actively engaged in community and benefit from that. Uh what you know, what variable to use for that? Instead, uh what we could look at is uh the number of uh memberships, how many people are members of different organizations, and then also uh numbers on just how many different organizations exist, you know, the density of civic organizations within uh particular neighborhoods. So those are they're they're imperfect metrics, but uh you know, together those two things and a bunch of other variables, they start to build up this picture of uh overall resilience.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, yeah. And and that is one of the challenges, isn't it, with trying to measure resilience? Because as we said earlier, it is by its nature cross and multisectoral, and um it spans everything from the the local, the hyperlocal, the street level, um right up to regional, districts, and and and you know, national. So you've got this intersect and this interplay of of different data sets and and and having that availability of data spanning those spectrums from hyper-local right up to sort of district level is is a real challenge. And that's you know, we've been involved in projects in in JBA over here in the UK, you know, looking at uh um developing indicators for resilience and um doing some work in in-house as well on that. And yeah, it's it's a challenge, it's a really interesting one. Um what's what's the future of your your metrics for resilience? You know, how are you gonna sort of use the results? How are you gonna keep uh evaluating and monitoring this over time?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

So this New Orleans project, just to talk about that for a second, is actually the I think it's the third or maybe even the fourth, it kind of predates my time at Brookings uh iteration where we've looked at uh indicators of resilience within um the metro area. So, you know, colleagues of mine did an evaluation at uh five years on, at 10 years on, now we're at 20. And this is probably the last uh report that we put out looking just at New Orleans, but you know, the next kind of vision for this work too is extended outwards across the US. You know, New Orleans is not the only place uh within the US that faces these kinds of risks, right? It's not the only uh coastal city that faces hurricane and flooding risks and sea level rise. Uh and we'd like to take New Orleans as kind of a case study and apply the approach that we took to figuring out what metrics are important to look at, how we can, you know, what data do we have access in different places, and how can we start to analyze that data and then go and apply that to different cities and neighborhoods uh across the US to start to build a more uh national picture of resilience. And you know, I'll say in the US there's not uh necessarily always uh good national metrics. I think the US has done a better job of capturing some of the physical impacts of of uh extreme weather and disasters, but less the social um and economic amplifiers of those events.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, yeah. The benefit of extending out from New Orleans to other cities and um districts across the US, I suppose, then is is that you could start to see the impacts of certain funding streams and and and grant initiatives or political decisions, regional decision making, um rather if you've got those consistent data sets and consistent uh metrics that you're applying. I think that's really interesting actually. And um um I'm involved in a project over here where at a at a much um sort of smaller level, there is a uh or somewhat local level, I suppose, there is a um a PhD student developing um a set of um indicators for measuring uh uh community resilience. Uh you know, at a at a at a sort of neighbourhood or community level. And actually the opportunity there is that well if you're able to sort of measure levels of community resilience in a in a particular village or or community um and and you can apply those same metrics and frameworks to other neighbouring communities, then actually what you start to do over time is is evaluate the the effectiveness, as I say, of of different funding uh initiatives, either in terms of protection or um uh recovery or awareness, uh raising awareness, it could be adaptation, it could be a governance thing. So then you can start to see the impact of those and and and ultimately then better inform future funding uh and finance and funding and investment decision making. So I I think there's so much to be had from developing metrics and I and I and I and I wish you well with um with you know rolling it out. I think it's uh yeah, it's a it's a fascinating topic. Probably probably one for another podcast, to be honest. Me and you could get back together and another one.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Can I just add something there as well? Yeah, sure. You know, I think that's somewhat where the the frontier, well, at least for me, I can't speak for others, but where the frontier is uh with this work on trying to understand resilience is is back to that scale question of um, you know, I think we have had initiatives over the last 20 years that have tried to understand resilience at um like a national level, you know, comparing countries, country to country. And then you had things like the 100 Resilient Cities Initiative, where you're looking to compare cities to cities, but uh there hasn't been a lot of good research that I've seen really looking at um a neighborhood level. And you know, maybe there is some studies here or there that look at specific places like what we've done with New Orleans, but then you know, the more important job of comparing across and between those neighborhoods, um using the same kind of data and trying to, like you said, draw out these um these kind of deeper understandings of what works in different places and and why and what are the important variables um that we're missing.

unknown 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Um the final sort of area then I just you know as we move into the final part of the podcast, um I'd like to explore um the intercept in in New Orleans and uh you know post-Katrina, the intercept between policy and climate science. Um we touched on it in a few times, I suppose, um a little bit through our discussions, but I'm just really keen to get your thoughts on what the landscape is in the in the US at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah, it's uh it's a crazy time to be doing climate science in the US at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Uh you know, at a at a national level, you've had a whole lot of uh public data that has been you know taken down in bulk from from websites. You know, as a researcher, it's now harder for me to access really kind of basic data on uh you know what what are the what are the changing risks of climate and how does that differ from one place to another? Now, like thankfully there's been a lot of community organizations and and research um institutions, places like Harvard actually, that have uh archived a lot of this data. So you know I can still access it. But nevertheless, for your average person, average member of the public, um a lot of that stuff is being taken down. And you know, more uh kind of more broadly, you're also seeing uh substantial funding streams that were relied on by places like New Orleans also being. Having the legs cut out from under them. So, you know, the US had something called the BRICS program, which is uh basically provided uh community or city level funding to invest in uh resilience projects. So, you know, it could be a physical project, it could be something like helping to retrofit homes, uh, and and that funding stream has been stopped. So, you know, these were were federal opportunities for communities to bolster and and and make sure that they're ready for increasing climate and disaster impacts, and and now they've been taken away. So uh yeah, it's a it's a it's a challenging time, I think, for a lot of places that are facing these threats, and then a lot of people like me who are doing research to try to understand them.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yeah, yeah. So climate data, climate science data, um is so important for storytelling, isn't it? So um you know, um uh at a most basic level, um you know, at JBA we we use and we interpret and we analyze and we create uh climate data, um be that on on risks of flooding, uh inland, surface water, postal risk. And that allows us to take to create a story, to create a narrative. Um one that we with our partners and with clients um and those that we collaborate with, we can then relate and and take that story to members of the public. Um and and so yeah, I th I think the the the richness and the availability of climate data, it's so important, isn't it, for for that whole storytelling piece. And um I suppose interested i i i in in uh what the sort of um the the situation is in the US at the moment because um you know over here in the UK we've got a uh um a sort of national uh resilience action plan uh that talks about whole society resilience. And and what that's what that's saying is yes, there are national agencies, national bodies and local agencies and the emergency services who are there to uh protect you and help manage risk. But actually we've all got a role to play, whether that's in you know protecting our property, looking out for our neighbour, or just using the supercomputer that we've got in our pocket that's called a smartphone with some weather apps on it that can that can give us um you know a little bit of advanced warning. Um so it is all about uh you know creating and and supporting people to be resilient. And you know, uh actually most people have got some degree of of resilience. Um so I'm I'm just quite interested in you know what how that compares, that situation compares to you know the landscape in the US at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, I'd say, you know, to start kind of at a high level, you know, step back a little bit. I the UK has definitely been more successful than the US, seems to me, anyway, at making sure that there's a bipartisan position um on certainly fostering climate resilience and and getting ready for that, but even things like addressing um disaster impacts. So, you know, the last time I looked at the statistic, the Pew, um which is another think tank in the US, they publish uh a lot of polling data. And the last time I saw the stat, I think it was 54% of Americans on average uh think that climate change is a threat worth addressing, 54%. And I think it's been that number for about 10 years. Uh it's highly partisan, you know, the number is much, much higher for Democrat voters and much lower for Republican voters, but it's hovered around that 54%. So more than average, but um, sorry, more than uh it's the majority, but it's not it's not uh an overwhelming majority. Yet if you ask people, uh have you been impacted by extreme weather in the last you know three to five years, something like 75% of people say, you know, yes, I have. Um I have been impacted by extreme weather. So you know, I think there's been this disconnect in the US to make that linkage. And instead of talking about disasters as something that just happened, uh they're instead something that we can prepare for, something that's being amplified by climate impacts, and something that can be addressed through policy change and structural change. And you know, I think this is something the Biden Harris administration, prior to the Trump administration, was on the cusp of doing. So, you know, they put out something uh called the National Resilience Framework. Now that wasn't a it wasn't an actionable document, it didn't really have teeth, uh, it wasn't policy change, but it set up uh a kind of it was a signal to indicate to uh Congresspeople, to the American public, hey, resilience is important, and we're gonna start thinking about it in a structural way uh using the tools of government. Uh now that the Trump administration has come in and there's this kind of uh ideological uh um bent against uh climate action and adaptation, a lot of those programs that were in the works, including that resilience framework, have been thrown out of the window. So it's a much more difficult environment. And again, you know, to come back to contrast to the UK, you know, instead of that government coming in and saying, okay, we we agree with the same basic principles. We need to make sure communities are ready for climate impacts, that they are resilient to those impacts. Instead of starting with that basic premise and then figuring out what's the way to get there, uh the Trump administration has come in and said, no, anything with climate in it, anything with uh resilience in it, uh, we don't need that anymore. We're not doing that. And a lot of you know, a lot of things have been thrown out of the window that that's uh that could have been really great bipartisan initiatives.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, yeah. And actually, if you take the word climate out of this conversation, actually what we're talking about is is is places and people that that want to be you know prosperous, that want to have social cohesion and strong social networks and and and you know support vulnerable people and and are founded on equity. And and you know, across the political divide, surely that's something that you know you know all good people can can agree on. Um so look, we've we've nearly reached the end of our conversation. Um I'd like to really congratulate you on um the work you're doing to commemorate and mark and reflect the 20th anniversary of Katrina. Um and thank you for um the conversation this afternoon. I think it's been fantastic. But final thought it really is um just where can listeners find out more about your program of works around the um anniversary of Katrina?

SPEAKER_01 29:11

So if you just go to the uh the Brookings Institution, um Brookings Institution website, just put it into Google, it'll pop straight up. Um and it should be on the homepage there. And you can find a collection of the uh the reports, uh, a whole bunch of data on New Orleans, and then a whole bunch of kind of in-depth policy analysis on a bunch of different topics that we've talked about today.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Fantastic. Yeah, we will we will do that. Thank you, Manon, for coming on the podcast. It's been a great conversation. Um, and so we've reached the end of our time today. As always, if you've enjoyed listening, then please hit the subscribe button so you're ready for the next episode in a few weeks' time. Till then, thanks for joining us. I'm Phil Emonson, and you've been listening to the Climate Resilience podcast brought to you by JBA Consulting.