JBA at 30: Resilient organisations

As part of our 30th anniversary celebrations, in this episode of The Climate Resilience Podcast, we look back at JBA’s journey – from its beginnings three decades ago to the milestones and defining moments that have shaped who we are as an organisation today. Phil is joined by JBA’s Executive Chair and Founder, Jeremy Benn, and Richard Maltby, Director of Maltby Land Surveys Ltd – one of our first ever partners – as they reflect on the headlines, highlights, and lessons learned along the way, while exploring what it truly means for an organisation to be resilient. We also look ahead to the next 30 years: the challenges, opportunities, and the role resilience will play in navigating an uncertain future.

Thank you for listening to this episode. 

For any comments, questions or insights please contact phil.emonson@jbaconsulting.com.

Visit our website jbaconsulting.com
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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello, and welcome to the Climate Resilience Podcast brought to you by JBA Consulting. I'm Phil Emerson, and in this podcast series, we're going to pick some of the complexities, the challenges, and the opportunities on the topic of climate resilience with some inspirational thought leaders. Today's episode is a bonus episode as a celebratory and reflective feeling. This September we marked 30 years since the inception of JBA. So we're going to celebrate and then we'll leave and we'll look ahead to the future and we'll consider what it is that makes businesses like JBA resilient. I'm delighted to say that joining me is Founder and Executive Chair Jeremy Bennett. And Richard Motley from Motley Land Server is one of JBA's longest standing suppliers. So welcome both to the podcast. And perhaps you could start by introducing yourselves. Jeremy, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Okay, well, thank you, Phil. Yeah, so I'm uh Jeremy Benn and I've got this lofty title of executive uh chair, which is one that they give to people that they don't really know what to do with anymore. Um, but it sounds sufficiently grand enough. Um as Phil said I I helped uh found JBA um uh 1st of September uh 1995, so uh 30 years ago. Um by background, I'm a hydrologist, stroke hydraulic modeler, stroke uh civil engineer.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Lovely, lovely. Thanks, Jeremy. It's a real honour to have you on this on this uh this podcast as we mark 30 years. And and and Richard, uh introduction from yourself as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Uh good afternoon, Phil. Um, yes, obviously Richard Morby. Um manage and run uh uh a survey business that I created with my twin brother um 40 years ago. Um we both were in in the industry, me and Moore in construction, Stephen in uh actually worked for Thames Water at the time. Um and we decided to we both spent a couple of years overseas and came back and then decided to create Mopby land surveys to see how it would go.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Fantastic, great. So I think in the next sort of 20-30 minutes we're gonna unpick some of the some of the challenges that you've had over the last 30 years, but also the the the highlights as well, and and and and we'll uh we'll we'll talk about how JVA and Mockbiz have have worked together. But look, let's let's go back then to um September 95. Um personally, I was 11 at the time. I was just starting secondary school, so it was a it was a big month in the Emmingson household, but I'm sure it was a it was an even bigger month in the Benn household because um I'm keen, Jeremy, to know I suppose what inspired you to create the business. Obviously, this was a a you know a thought process and a uh you know it probably many months in the development to to actually get the business set up and running, but yeah, it's keen to sort of start by exploring why you did it and and what your vision was, but also I suppose what the landscape was like as well for for new businesses in the in the mid-90s. So maybe if you could start us off with some of those thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Sure. Um well 1995 or or 1994 when probably uh you know start first started thinking about um uh the original business idea. Um the economy wasn't doing great, um, but we were sort of in the middle of a sort of very minor, uh minor recession. Um but there was a lot of change uh going on, uh also change in in the air. Um I mean just to uh calibrate everyone to the mid-1990s, um, like you said, many were either not born or um still at school then. Um there was this thing called the internet, um, but you know, it wasn't being been that widely used. Yeah, email was was was there, but you didn't spend all day, you know, email. Um uh eBay had just been established, um, but Google didn't come along till 1996. Um but um you could almost sense that that things were uh changing. Um uh geographic information systems, um, you know, we knew them, the software was there, um, they weren't being widely used, largely because there was there was just no data, you know, you could you could go and buy an Esri license, but what were we going to use it on? Um you know, digital OS mapping you know cost an absolute fortune. There was there was no LIDAR um or other uh ready uh readily available data sets. Um at the time I was I was working in hydrology and hydraulic modelling. Um and also to set the context there, that wasn't really recognised as a a field or an activity in its own right. Um so consultancies didn't uh didn't have modelling teams. Um consultancy would have say a um a water engineering team, um, and they might need modelling from time to time. Um the high-ways team might might need it. So where I was working at the time, uh yeah, I was I was employed as a modeler and I had a small team, but uh we didn't really have any clients of our own. Uh we were just um getting working internally. Um but uh what we had a sentence is that things you know could and should change, um, and that you know you know modeling will develop into you know a field in its own right, and also that uh we could integrate you know modeling with new data sets, and particularly you know GIS. Um I mean was it a good time to set up a business otherwise? Well, I don't I don't think there's ever a bad time to be honest. Um you could say, well, if you set up a business when times are uh tougher, it keeps you focused and um it means you're probably more resilient when um if if uh if further tough times you know come ahead in the future. So uh so that's a little bit about the background.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So you were you've been planning this, as you said, since uh since probably '94. And um was there was there a vision? Obviously, you know, JBA, we've we've got a very established vision now, but but you know, going back 30 years, was was there something that you that you hoped the vi that you know the the business would become, or was it just a well we we we want to set up a new business because we see the opportunity and we can see that times are changing, which you know was was there a sort of a longer term aspiration?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

I I don't think we can claim that there was any you know great, well thought out uh vision. Um interesting enough, the the the the very basic idea of you know having a dedicated modeling and hydrology team, we actually the we be myself and Craig Robson, uh actually presented to our employer at the time, um, who listened very politely, but um but uh that they weren't prepared to to back it. Uh I remember one comment from uh uh a partner was um uh a senior outline business plan, you've got one computer per person. And in those days, you know, a decent computer to run a hydraulic model was probably about £7,000. That was at 1995 prices. Um and I do remember at the time as well, if they're challenging why everyone in a modelling team needs a computer, I don't think they've quite understood the uh the concept. So I suppose that that prompted us to um to say, well, you know, we still think it's a good idea, so we'll we'll we'll do it ourselves. Um and um um in terms of the vision, as I said, it it was um uh to concentrate on you know environmental modelling and it was to bring together you know GIS you know models uh to have technology at the heart of what we we do and uh and innovation um and to have a focus to um uh I I think beyond that uh I think um you know our ideas work that that firm or more set.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Sure, sure. Um Richard, I'd like to bring you in here. Um you mentioned in your um in your introduction that uh maltbees was developed 40 years ago. Um so that you know the landscape for setting up a new business um would have been different to to the mid-90s in the context that Jerome has just explained. So interested in in your thoughts on and reflections on what the landscape was like when you set up Maltbees, but but also thinking, I suppose, of of what's happened in the intervening years in the business landscape. And Jeremy's referenced some of those with you know uh the arrival of the internet and and digital data sets, etc. But how how have those evolutions then changed the outlook that you've had for for Maltbees over the last 40 years?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Um Wilfred, I think the um the period obviously in 1985 we started. Uh we like I said earlier, we've both been working overseas. So unlike Jeremy and Craig, we didn't have to give up a job. We we were coming back, Stephen from Libya and me from Saudi Arabia. So it's a little bit easier, I think, for us in much to say, yeah, this this is the area that we want to work in. Um, but we didn't have to give everything anything up, and you know, we were lucky enough to have uh saved sufficient funding to to buy our first set of equipment and to um keep us surviving for a little while. Um and the the the economic climate was a little bit better at that time. I mean, the it was the end of the minor strike, um, and the and the country was going into a little bit of a mini boom that then as Jeremy Jeremy alluded to earlier, the the sort of '93, '94, it was it was in it and coming out. Um the tech the technology that Jeremy had was obviously considerably better than what we had. I mean, mobile phones were only just coming out. Um computers were, yeah, I mean, they were um they were very, very basic. Um and and as Jerry alluded to, very expensive. Um so it was there was it was quite a good climate uh to to to push forward. Um our vision, if you like, was really to um that as Jeremy, it wasn't much of a business vision, it was let's try it for 12 months, you know. We we had enough behind us to to warrant it. We'd both obviously been working, you know, we'd both been out of the country for a couple of years, so um, but we still had our contacts. Uh like I said, Stephen was um worked for Thames Water, and I was in the construction industry. So so we approached those and got so we had nothing to go on to, um, other than we had our kit. We we we topod our own back gardens a number of times just to get practice. Um but you know, it it you know that those were the days, you know. I mean, it was um it was quite a good thing to to move forward. We fortunately we you know, we weren't under a lot of pressure, we we had no children, no real responsibility, so it was more of a let's see how it goes and see how it grows, you know, and here we are now. Obviously, um we haven't got quite the worldwide uh office complex that Jeremy has and his thousand staff. Um but it I I always knew that Jeremy, you know, we met oh it was a pub in Hampton Court that we then went for Chinese um when Jeremy was literally just starting. Um and you could see how eager and keen he was, you know. Uh um, and it was obvious that it was going to go forward just because everybody that's got an interest and a passion for what they do, they do it well. So, and that is always a good way forward. So that that, if you like the business, just keep doing what you know, what how you can do it and do it well.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

And and and my um my first interaction with with Jeremy and JBA when I had my my my interview to join was was again extremely positive and uh and made a really big impression on on me. Um so I want to move into a period now where we can perhaps look at some of the the highs and the the celebrations and and some of the more memorable projects, but I'd also want to touch on some perhaps the challenging times that that businesses have had. I mean, this is this podcast is about resilience, and and so I'm I'm you know, without wish wishing to dwell on this for too long, but I am keen to know perhaps what some of the tougher periods have been and what that's taught you about you know resilient businesses. Um and then we'll we'll look at perhaps some of the the headline projects that you've both been involved with. But Richard, maybe we could start with you on yeah, you know, over the last 40 years, what stood out as as a particularly difficult patch or difficult period, but importantly, what that then taught you about creating a you know a business that can withstand change and and periods of adversity.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Um well for I I I think our ethos initially was that to create a solid base, you know, the um in order to to to move forward from. Um I I believe the the the economy in the world go goes over almost a 10-year cycle where we have you know two good years, two bad years, and the other six are going in and out. So um particularly bad was obviously the 2008-2009 um uh recession that we all went through, um, which was bad for everybody. And I I think I don't know, I think the if you know we were lucky, we we you know we we had to make some difficult decisions. We we spoke and included all our staff with it at the time, um, which we had about 50 at that time. Um they all agreed a pay decrease. We asked if anybody wanted voluntary redundancy, and a couple actually did, which obviously didn't help because obviously we then had redundancy payments to make with money that we we didn't have that was coming in. Um and it I think it's at times like that as well that you realise that the financial institutions will only give you money when you don't want it. Yeah all the time that you're in need and you want it, they never want to give it to you. And so I think that that gave us more of a uh um a push to make sure that we were economically sound, that we you know that that we weren't going to be affected by minor clips in the or minor or major clips in the various economy and the various work that was coming out, because although how much hard how hard we try, you know, it's very difficult to influence the work that comes out to you. You know, obviously we we invest massively, you know, we are and I know Jeremy does as well, we invest heavily with survey equipment, is extremely expensive, you know. Our first GPS receiver was £45,000, you know, the plotter was uh uh £15,000, that sort of thing. You know, everything was expensive. Um and it was you know, we were trying to ensure that you know we had absolutely minimal debt, and and we've stayed like that ever since, to be honest, and I think that's what's helped us have that base to go forward. So um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Well, Jeremy, I'd I'll come over to you at that point. Uh, you know, um Richard there reflecting on I suppose that sort of credit crunch period of the 08-09 or sort of 2010 period. But you know, I suppose the same sort of question to to you, really, in that you know, over the 30 years there there have been ups but downs as well. And you know, JBA, we are a resilient business, and I'm and I'm keen to just explore perhaps with you what some of those difficult periods have have taught you and others leading the business about challenging with uh you know adversity.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Sure. Yeah, well, I I mean as Richard said, um uh the the 2008-2009 yeah recession was was was was tough, particularly for professional services. I mean, to take you the context, this was after the the dot-com boom, but it was also uh uh very shortly afterwards a new government uh came in and basically put a freeze on public spending for uh six months while they did a review. Um and although that public spending actually most of it actually did subsequently restart, that's no help to a business when you basically said there's no new contract, you know, for until government decides what it's gonna do. Um and I suppose as a business, you know, what you do learn is you uh you you do have to expect um you know a recession or at least a downturn of work. I mean, you know, no country or no work area is gonna go you know 30, 40 years without experiencing at least one period of of downturn and you know completely outside of your control. So um, and uh I mean, even before the 2008 and now recession, you know, we always took the view of um um, you know, we will invest in the in the business, but we'll try and do it without borrowing, uh, either you know, explicit borrowing or you know, having a you know a loan from the bank or a secondary investor, uh, or even things like leases, you know, leases um yeah means that uh while it's it spreads the expenditure you know very nicely. Um of course it it could be you're leasing something that you actually no longer need, or you're losing something that you can't uh earn money on. So um so we you know, when 2008 and nine hit and equally I suppose the other big period was was COVID, uh, you know, we were in a solid financial position. So um action needed to be taken, but um we were in control as much as we could be. Uh for instance we weren't having to answer to a bank or a lender telling us what we we we could and couldn't do. Um uh that still means you've got to make hard decisions, but but um you know you're making hard decisions you know on behalf of the company and the employees as a whole, and not an external party, such as a lender or finance company who really doesn't care about uh anything other than keep the payments going. Um so um, and of course, you know, that you know that you know they only have very little discretionary spend in a business because um, you know, both Mulby and JBA work in a people business quite rightly, you know, the big part of our cost by far is is salaries, and that's how it should be. Um but salaries have to be paid monthly. Um that that that's it. And then you know, things like bills, office rents have to be paid monthly. So you have very little you know discretionary uh you know spend, but you know, you should always to be resilient, you need to make sure that discretionary spend is uh is as big as possible and and that you've got a buffer um you know as well financially. Um so going to COVID, for instance, I mean, you know, JBA was in the same position as every other business family student in the world practically, or it suddenly hit us never seen anything like it before. There was no textbook to tell you what you needed to do. Um you know, the first month in particular. Um but you know, we we focused on um you know reassuring people in the business um and um you know just let things settle down for a couple of months, you know. Um you know, we didn't make any you know immediate decisions on anything because you know we were in a lucky position of um you know, although um you know we weren't getting any new contracts uh so to speak. And you know, some contracts we we did have, we couldn't actually deliver because we couldn't travel to but you know, we had a financial buffer to uh to make sure we didn't have to make you know really, really quick decisions. And one thing we're really proud of is you know, um in terms of furlough, we we did make some uh use of that that scheme, but that was largely um because uh of um individuals asking wanting to be furloughed because they they you know had three kids at home, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

To educate them, it was always important.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Possible at work, so they wanted to go on furlough. So um, and and then equally we also did pay make up full salary for those who are you know um furlough. Um and of course, you know, yeah, any responsible employer would would do that, but we had the means to do it, and and it did mean that you know six months after the start of COVID when suddenly ever realized actually we were short of people, when you couldn't get people, well, we we'd kept our our our people.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

That's that's a really great insight, and and some of the points both of you have have reflected on there really I suppose shine a light into yeah, what what it is that's made both organisations you know resilient to those those periods of of difficulty. Um it's also celebratory though, this episode. And and I suppose I'd like to just see if you can either of you can remember the first time JBA and Momp is work together. So there's a challenge. Cast your minds back. And was was there or has there been a particular project where you can remember uh fondly JBA and Momby's? Uh I know we've worked together lots of times, but is there one that particularly stands out for either of you?

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Do you want to go first, Jeremy?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah, sure. Well, well, just to go to the initial meeting, and I have we met at a conference or something. But anyway, at the time, you know, we we we we were we were starting to pick up work in uh in modelling, and we you know we're not surveyors, you know, we needed you know good companies to work with um to um to to undertake the survey work you know for us. And uh and as a yeah, I had that initial meeting with uh with with Richard and his his brothers and we we just hit it off. I mean we just thought, well, this is a a company that's nimble, you know, is you know, is uh is looking at the future, you know, will work with us to to innovate. Um and you know, it just went went from from there. Um and I suppose you know a salient point for both companies is um the very first environment agency framework was in 1998. Um because before that the uh frameworks were really quite quite rare, and certainly environment agency hadn't had one before. And um against all the odds, uh, and everyone telling us uh you know there's no point even uh applying, you know, we managed to get um uh get appointed as as JBA and with Molby as our key our key supplier. And and given that chance, you know, we uh we we took it and uh and built upon it.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Excellent, excellent. And and Richard, your reflections then of of working with JBA in those early days, but also across the last 30 years, of course.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, I exactly what Jeremy said. We hit it off straight away, I think. Um, and because we're both passionate about what we do, and we're both passionate about what each other's do as well, and we know that you know how to model and model extremely well, and we know how to survey and survey very well, and and so therefore, you know, it was a partnership made in heaven, if you like. And it did, you know, it has worked. We've done oh I was looking at it, I mean, I I think just in the last uh 10 years, we've done about I think we done about 700 quotes and 500 different jobs or 400 different jobs, something like that. I mean, and it is just it's been a constant flow, you know, for the for the first one, which if I remember correctly, the first job we did for, and I think it was the one we discussed in Hampton Court, was uh was a job in Yoval. I think it was to do with uh I think it was it was water related, but to do with railway bridges.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

That's right, yes, it's for scar assessment, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

That's right, yeah. But I I think that also, you know, the way that we both work together, the both, you know, Jeremy said the right word, innovate there. Uh we both like to innovate into what we do and diversify. You know, that's where we both, you know, where obviously Jeremy started as modeling, but you look at what you encompass now, you know, this and it and that helps with your resilience because we get different parts going up and different parts going down. And hopefully, you know, they're not all they're not all down at the same time or all up at the same time, because that gives you nearly as many problems as them all being down at the same time to to manage, you know. So it's uh I think the whole thing, and and obviously we were very proud and happy to support and and work with JBA on the framework. And if I remember, Jeremy, wasn't that a framework didn't they split that regionally? Um, because I know you you went through a uh um a time of um collecting offices all over the country so that they were environmentally friendly in as much that there wasn't a lot of travelling involved for the staff that you had.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

The first framework was a national one, but the second one was then a regional one. And and you know, the client quite rightly was saying, look, we you know, we you know uh clients always want the said, you know, we want the best expertise, but we also want it local to us. So um, and that's one of the drivers behind uh you know having a geographical spread of offices.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah, well, it's it's it's really interesting actually that you've both mentioned that word in innovate in in in that discussion there, because you know, even to this day, Jeremy, innovate is one of the three core values of JBA. So here we are, you know, 30 years on from that original project in Yoval, which is just up the road for me as I as I sit here now, um, still talking about the importance of innovation. So that's that's that's fantastic to hear. Look, finally, then I suppose I'd like to look ahead um and and make this a bit forward-looking because I I'm keen to know where you think businesses are going in the next 30 years. I mean, clearly, you know, for business to be resilient to change, there needs to be that capacity to adapt and evolve. And we've spoken at length this afternoon about what that involves. Um, both organizations are are values-led and have a very clear ethos. But I suppose, Richard, I'll start with you. What do you think the challenges and the opportunities are in future that will shape Maltbys and shape the business landscape?

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Um, I think there's massive opportunities just simply because of now we're we're data managers more than anything else now, and there's there's so much more um coming into the marketplace. Uh lots of the manufacturers we work with that help developing very especially reality capture, and obviously we've got AI on the uh that's just starting to be used. Um but again, we we go back to all about resilience. We've for us the way forward, we we employ apprentices. Basically, everybody we employ, we we employ directly from school, and we put them now on a five, six-year degree apprenticeship. We've actually got nine or ten at the moment on it, and that gives us a great deal of um resilience, if you like. Young lads or girls come forward. Um, we've been doing that for a number of years now. Um, we as a company have always been heavily involved with training of of staff and whatever, and again, that to me that's one of the most important things to have these people that you've got that are rolling forward, that are picking up these new technologies. Because it's it's amazing how many people are frightened to uh to uh experiment, if you like. They're frightened to make a mistake, and we're not. We will go we will go at things and and and try and move them forward as much as we can in order to progress. Um and I think there's lots of there is things, there's lots of different things on the horizon. It's not, you know, we as I said, Jeremy's got a lot of uh irons in the fire, and similarly do we in in various parts, not just all the water-related side, the building sides that we work with, and all the various um, you know, we look now at the presentation of the projects that we do and the creating the animations. You know, I know you've got we work with Kathy, Dan this way, Kathy Lemon, make some fantastic animations from from data that we can provide. And I think I think if you like our big biggest challenge over the next you know, period, the next five years or whatever, is to try and get all our clients to be as forward-thinking as JBA, to be honest, and to be able and and happy to experiment, and as much that the amount of um our clients that really just oh, just give us the survey, you know, not we can give you all this as well. We show you this. I mean she's worked well, is because JBA never been frightened at looking at looking at new uh new things, things that could possibly help, maybe not at that time, but it's in the back of their head to to think about future projects. So I think there is a lot of um there's a lot of prospect going forward. Obviously, not for us because we get well, Jeremy's obviously a spring chicken compared to me, but we're um you know, it's we we've got our our staff in here, which we've gone gone down the EOT route, which isn't there yet, which then empowers all the staff to go forward. So hopefully they will they will follow in the footsteps.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

So uh yeah, well, thank you. And Jeremy, I'll give the last word to you this afternoon, chance to reflect on the future. Richard's just referenced employee ownership trust, which you may also allude to, but yeah, the final thoughts to to over to you.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Well, just before that, um, and I promise I'll be quick, but I mean, Richard's been very modest there. Uh, I mean, he mentioned about um you're taking people on as apprentices and trainees and training them up, and you know, Molby um are well known for that. But also, you know, you know, Richard and his brothers also spent a lot of time setting up schemes with the Survey Association, so you know they were looking wider than just just Mulby's requirements. So I think I just want to recognise uh uh Richard and his brother's involvement uh in that because uh other other you know, there's lots of other people who aren't even employed by Mulby surveys who are benefiting from from that. So thank you, Richard. Um I mean for for ourselves, um what's important to us as a business is um you know we're not chasing a number, you know, we are actually we actually do enjoy and like what we're doing. You know, we're uh we're doing you know exciting technical work for really you know uh blue chip clients who are trying to do better for the world. Um and that's our focus. And yeah, you know, we're a business, you know, we're you know, our income has to exceed our outgoings, uh, but that's not our driver. Um and uh you know we're determined not to not to lose that. And the employee ownership model is one way of making sure we don't lose that, because um, you know, if you're not owned um you know, either by you know uh you know your managers or um or wider trust in the case of JBA, I think it's someone external then owns you, and and ultimately they are going to set um the overarching targets for you. And inevitably and and quite rightly there will be financial in terms of rates of return. I mean, I don't want to be critical of that model. I mean, our pensions are invested in that kind of model, so long may there be uh you know companies that change aggressive profit targets and and pay dividends into pension funds, but you know, it it it isn't JBA. Um and um and yeah, it it does mean that we we we focus on uh the the work and our clients and uh and uh you know secondary is the um is the income and the margin that that generates, uh, which we uh reinvest in the business. So um and it does mean you can look at things longer term because you you're not on a you know, I mean if we were listed, you know, we'd be reported to the stock exchange every three months, yeah, and everything would be you know stock time for three months. Um you know, whereas we can invest on a time horizon of our choosing, you know, uh really. Um which um does set us apart. And it also means you know, we we we can pursue areas that other others aren't doing, uh, even though they need doing. You know, it's not just that we're trying to find areas where there's less competition, but you know, there's areas of of investment and research, which no one else is going to do if we don't do it. So um I think that's uh that's that's uh pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

It is, it really is. Um thank you both genuinely, Richard and Jeremy, for coming on the podcast, sharing your reflections, your insights, your experiences, um, and just for having such a great conversation. It really has been a fantastic episode. And so we've reached the end of our time together today. Um, as always, if you've enjoyed listening, then please hit the subscribe button so you're ready for our next episode in a few weeks' time. Till then, thanks for joining us. I'm Phil Emerson, and you've been listening to the Climate Resilience podcast brought to you by JBA Consulting.