Knowing When To Stop: Avoiding the Escalation Trap

The fastest way to wreck a hard-won calm is to say one more thing. In this episode, dig into the escalation trap that shows up in boardrooms, squad cars, kitchens, and group texts: the moment an interaction starts to stabilize, we keep pressing because we still feel the original disrespect, risk, or resistance. That’s when accountability quietly turns into humiliation, and influence turns into a contest.

We talk through why capable, experienced people miss the off-ramps. Stress narrows perception, ego wants a “win,” and an audience makes us perform. The fix starts with updating your baseline and reading behavior in context, not getting hypnotized by the words. Reduced intensity is information, not proof, so we walk through what to watch for: distance, fixation, posture, speech becoming more organized, and whether the person is actually moving toward a least objectionable way out.

You’ll also get a simple self-check you can use before you speak or hit send: STOP. Separate the present from the past, Test your purpose, Observe the direction of behavior, and Pick the proportionate next move. We apply it to real scenarios and share how a bystander or teammate can step in without making things worse. If this helps, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Idea

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior Podcast. Today, Greg and I are talking about one of the most important skills in any tense interaction, knowing when to stop. We explore why people keep pressing after a situation has begun to de-escalate, how the need to be right can become counterproductive, and how to recognize the off-ramps that keep accountability from turning into escalation. Conversation offers practical insight for leaders, professionals, families, and anyone operating in high-stakes environments where the ability to stop the right moment can protect relationships, preserve influence, and produce better outcomes. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and don't forget to check out our Patreon channel for additional content. Enjoy the podcast, please consider leaving us review and more importantly, sharing it with a friend. Thank you for your time. And remember, training changes behavior. All right, we got a great show, Greg. I'm super excited today about uh getting into this avoiding the escalation trap and knowing when to stop. But first, real quick, everyone want to shout out to all our listeners, people who keep listening and new listeners. We've been a little behind the curve on getting episodes out. We've just been slammed this whole first half of the year with a bunch of projects. So we've got that kind of corraled now in a sense. And now we're excited to get back out and get back on a more uh you know, more consistent path here and get some more stuff out. We've been adding more to the Patreon, and so you can always find more there. And we've got a lot more coming up. We've got guests, we've got different show ideas that we're working through and and and sketching out and some interesting stories that we want to cover with some some inside knowledge coming up as well. So thank you so much for for hanging in there, everyone, and to all of our newer listeners, because we're still still getting more. We appreciate it. And and for those of you who've been reaching out, you've got some great episodes coming up, hopefully, that we're going to talk about some things that you guys reach out to us about. So we appreciate that, especially the folks who have some personal relationship with a case or something on the news. So thank you all for that. I just want to get that out of the way. But today, actually, speaking of Patreon, Greg, this is kind of a topic I want to bring on here under the podcast because we have something on the Patreon called and another thing.

Why People Keep Pressing

SPEAKER_00 2:00

And you guys can go go check that out and we give these different examples. But the idea is, you know, what we're going to talk about today is kind of stems from those conversations on Patreon. And the and another thing is kind of, you know, the basis is, you know, the conversation's over or the argument's over, things are de-escalating, and someone wants to kind of throw in their last point. But there's there's a lot more here that that we can discuss for everyone. And the idea being, you know, the that some of the worst outcomes in a situation do not begin when a situation first becomes tense, right? When things first start to escalate. They begin when it's actually kind of starting to settle and someone decides to add one more thing. Someone decides to add one more sentence or make one more point or or you know, just kind of want to add in another thing. And so I want to start off, Greg, but first, like, why does that happen? Why do we do that as people?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Well, first, first and foremost, it happens with everybody. So it doesn't matter if you're a teacher or you're a copper or you're a parent. These things or Brian's wife. Oh my God, or daughter, whatever. These things happen every day. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna show you how they develop and then give you the idea of hey, when I sense this as happening, how to stop it from turning into a shit sandwich. So remember that the initial problems could be legitimate. Okay. Okay. Uh there was an incident of disrespect or unnecessary risk or resistance, and and you need to get accountability. The mistake doesn't happen then. The mistake happens when somebody that's in that incident fails to recognize that the interaction has somehow changed. They continue pressing because they're still responding emotionally to that first version of the person dysfunction or situation. And then as they walk away, that last unnecessary comment thrown out in a glib manner turns that stabilizing interaction that you worked on so long right back into a contest. And so our advice to anybody listening to the podcast is don't let the behavior that started the event blind you to the behavior that is ending the event. You've got to read the tea leaves, you've got to read the room. And those unnecessary comments matter more than all of the initial work that you did.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And and we would kind of call that like you've got to update your baseline. Right? You gotta, okay, the baseline has changed from where this initially started. So I need to update that in order to get a clear picture of the situation.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So you have inadvertently become a contributing factor, right? So instead of promoting or fomenting problem solving, you're actually creating the dysfunction or adding to the turbidity that's creating that dysfunction.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

All right. So we'll kind of define what I mean by knowing when to stop, right? Because you can fall into this, you know, sort of trap, and and I refer to it as the escalation trap, which has all kinds of other things. Yeah, exactly. Let's not go through but but you know, we're we're now I we're like locked in, I can't get out of it, right? Because I already said something and I can't go back, and and then now you said something, you can't go back. And so, like, literally the only way out is to continue escalating. But when we say knowing when to stop, by stop, we don't necessarily, you know, just like, all right, let's just ignore this or avoid accountability or become you know passive, just roll over. It's like, well, what do we actually mean by knowing when to stop, Greg?

Stopping Shows Self-Control

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah. So point number one in your mind needs to be that stopping isn't surrender. Okay. Stopping is literally a demonstration of your self-control. You are controlling yourself and your emotions in this place. Now, we understand the way that your brain works and we mimic behaviors. So you being under control is a strong motivator for the other person gaining control. So that's a scientific fact. It demonstrates that you've recognized that your continued pressure is not producing any additional safety or clarity or compliance, and you're not getting any closer to the resolution. It's no longer helpful to the discussion, argument, or situation. And there's no warning sign that you're approaching or you're about to cross that line where any of your further actions or statements are are going to be serving anything but your ego. So, so those points that act as an emotional release for you actually punish the other person. So, what we're identifying is hey, listen, I need to be right in this. I need you to understand that I'm right, not just, hey, I need to be heard in this. I want you to understand how I'm feeling, how this made me react, right? And so there's a big distinction between those, Brian. And then the ultimate goal is that that you got to maintain your professional decorum, no matter what the interaction is, because once you fall below that standard, then you fall into the trap.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

So and I would say like that's kind of why we talk about like, hey, you know, most people want their say, not their way, right? Most people just have their, there's there's that psychological and sociological imperative where like if I feel wronged, I have to get some I at a minimum I have to have my feelings validated, right? Someone has to say, like, yeah, that was that was messed up, dude. What happened to you was wrong. Or and like that alone could be enough. But but then how do we so in those situations, right? Like in it it's hard when there's an emotional content or aspect to it, but how do we distinguish that sort of appropriate pressure maybe from from from piling on? Like, how do I know, like, okay, well, no, I still have to kind of draw the line a little bit here or or enforce a standard, but like I don't want it to seem like I'm piling on.

Pressure Versus Piling On

SPEAKER_01 7:17

So yellow pad everything, first of all, and rehearse it. Rehearse it when you don't have dysfunction. Rehearse it when it's just you and you got 15 minutes and you're listening to some music. How would I approach this? So you're tabletoping, right? It's always okay to outline your concerns. The right amount of intensity needs to be balanced to the current unresolved need now, in this moment, right? Needing to win, needing to be right means that you could bring a hammer to this conversation rather than a fly swatter. And maybe the fly swatter is much more important. Okay. So that's a huge distinction.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Well, and I've actually I've seen you do that before, where you actually said, like, because you were you were trying to de-escalate the situation and move the conversation along, get off this point because it was, it was kind of circling the drain. We're like, oh, this isn't gonna, this is, this is this is reached the point of no return. We have to move this. And you actually said, like, hey, I don't want you to feel like I'm piling on here because I'm not. And like you like identified it and then said, I just because I'm not. And then you said, I think this is where we should, you know, you you offered like an at least a point.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

We go backwards to that point, Brian. So piling on has a direct correlation to the original incident, whatever happened earlier that brought you together. But the problem is it's emotional baggage that you're bringing from that emotional residue. And it's always harmful, not helpful, because you can't, it's hard for a human to avoid saying and another thing. And you know what? The week before that, okay, so now what we're doing is we're drifting out of that lane, the uh record uh that has one groove, right? And and it's important during this to stay in that groove and not deviate, okay, because where you branch. Let's put it this way good rule of thumb is asking yourself, look, what good does saying this word or this sentence do in this context? And if your answer is nothing, it doesn't solve anything or move the conversation forward in a constructive direction, then your response is much more likely to distract or or add friction than answer the the matter at hand. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, but the this is all, and I I probably should have said this at the beginning, like this is all very easy for us to sit here and talk about on a podcast when we're not arguing in a casual conversation. Right. But but but but like it you you you you we fall to the you know, we we fall to our lowest state of order, you know, the primitive brain is constantly kicking. So like why then like when it comes to this, this the you're because you're you're talking a lot about control in a sense, right? So it's self-control, but it's it's like meta-control, meaning it's like control the situation as much as you can or control what you can control. So why then? And and we've all seen it, and people listening to this have seen it or experienced it themselves, why do capable, experienced people like what why do we still keep going after we've we we we've already you know achieved the outcome that we needed, or did we like, is it again, is it an emotional baggage? Did I not recognize that I've achieved the outcome? Or like why

Stress, Ego, And Audience Effects

SPEAKER_00 10:10

do we keep going? Why does we do it and another thing?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

So understand one historical perspective when it comes to two, your biological makeup. So humans are always ready for an attack, they're already ready to defend. That's our our makeup. So stress merely narrows our perception. So we see any difference of opinion as a disrespectful challenge, a threat. And we don't deal with anger or defiance or danger very well. So we meet those challenges when it might be best to avoid them. So if you see things ramping up that way, then you take a look and go, this isn't my exit, but I'm gonna take it because avoidance here might be the best way out. So we also assign importance to friction. The very first time that we deal with somebody and we know that they're bringing us a problem. Absolutely everything that comes out of that person's mouth from that point forward is viewed as the actions or statements or behavior of a problem child. And then we're on the defensive from the moment they walk down the hallway and come into our door. They're making a turn and we're already mentally going, here we go. And that outlook, that predisposition means that we're likely to miss evidence that they are calming down, that they are complying, that they're probing you for an exit, a way out, and you're not offering it because you're still just hearing the blah, blah, blah and waiting to talk. I'll tell you what exacerbates that, being in front of others. If you have an audience, then we feel pressured to demonstrate our power and avoid appearing weak in front of any audience. If it's my kids, if it's in a gosh damn cafeteria, if I'm in a work environment, that's hardwired into humans. We we only have a few choices, and if we don't flee, that means we're gonna fawn. And what does that mean? That means we're gonna cower and put up with the beating, the humiliation, or we're gonna stand up and we're gonna fight. And at that point, the situation becomes more about winning and much less about solving the problem you're engaged in. So so anytime you look at the function that you're doing and it serves no purpose, back off. And this is where that rehearsal can come in, Brian. This is where I plan before I go into the conference room.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, that well, that that's that's a the the plan is always there because like this this can happen easily in in any workplace, um, you know, even where it's not something physical or, you know, like a this whatever someone arguing with a police officer, I'm not going back to jail, thing, okay. Well, there's certain it's a little bit different, but but even in you know, uh what can be a normal workplace setting, we were actually kind of having a discussion about this right before where the problem with that is what we're like you just brought up. Once I see someone as like, oh, they're the problem child, or oh, they always have this start that fundamental attribution error, start attributing all these things to them where I'm like, no, these are the things that you did. Here's the problem. It's not about you, it's about these specific things that continue to happen. That's called a pattern of behavior, and I'm I'm I'm calling it out, but it's not in the that though those people think they could be tough conversations, but it they don't they they shouldn't be because you're not making about that individual. But like, what is it to bring that in, bring that in by this?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Let's go to the least objectionable place that we might meet somebody. So let's say it's on the playground and everybody's having a good time, and then an argument breaks out. At the very moment that you find yourself playing to the audience, that you're trying to get the audience on board to see that you were right, what you're doing is you're leaving that problem and entering performance. Now, you know, these people miss you is in the arena all the time. That's being in the arena. And the problem is getting into the arena, wearing your armor, grabbing your spear in the net means that you're ready for a fight. That's not the projection that you should be giving. I'm ready to resolve the issue at hand. That's the win, the the win. That's what you want us next.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, I I like kind of framing that as like, is this about the problem or is this about performance? Because we've all seen that before when someone like, you know, they get upset about something, and then now all of a sudden there's a crowd and now they're they keep going. And because so so we're talking about, yeah, I mean, you were just explaining it from like a personal, like first person perspective, but I can I can observe that in other people, and I'm like, okay, this is no longer about the issue or what it is. They're now playing to the crowd. They've now they've now created a role for themselves that they have to fulfill in this moment, right? Because they can't walk it back. And so, like, it's actually really good for to see that and go, okay, now I know where we're at in this in this situation.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

You got to see that from an experimental scientific methodology. You have to see yourself performing as a fly in the wall. If you don't, the problem that you're gonna have is you're not gonna be able to recreate it and fix the bad behavior,

Accountability Without Humiliation

SPEAKER_01 14:41

right? So, give you an example, you know, we we recently saw something, and I'll I'll paraphrase not to hurt anybody's feelings, but a supervisor raises uh uh uh first a legitimate issue. Hey, you seem very distracted at that staff meeting, okay? And that person acknowledged the dysfunction and starts to explain the context of being distracted. And the person cuts her off immediately and goes, you know, you do that all the time, and that's making us look bad. Okay, so what we did is we said, okay, what we're gonna do is we're gonna shift from accountability to humiliation. And everybody on that team that was there that watched it, Brian, yeah, said, Hey, wait a minute, there's no commitment to corrective action. This doesn't lead to a resolution. This damages trust. This is this is taking a person who willfully acknowledge that mistake and saying, You're gonna account for all past mistakes, you know? Again, you're you're trying to win rather than trying to fix something.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, and and especially in Yeah, so the the people you kind of because they're we the first thing is always corrective action, and then we don't always sort of like create the environment, the culture to where like no, you you you can it's okay to make mistakes, you just have to acknowledge and admit. There's actually a really good one from that that came out from it was like a you know Navy ship, it was air aircraft carrier, and one someone, one of the mechanics or something on the flight deck immediately was like didn't have one of their tools accounted for, and they were like, Hey, all stop. Like, I don't I can't find this this tool. Well, in that situation, like they, you know, a plane can be landed, it's sucked in. Like you're talking catastrophic failure. These things could could could happen. And so they, you know, redirected anyone, you know, no more shut down flight ops, got everyone out there, walked everything, got it accounted for, and then they like held the whole formation the next day to praise that sailor who was like, hey, you you you stood up, you did the right thing, and yeah, did it interrupt the mission? And yeah, did it did it do this and then cause all these other issues? But we corrected it, and that's the point. That's why those procedures are there, right? Not to admonish that person and now they're getting in trouble because what does that message send? You know what I mean? So it was just that that one made me think of that because it's not.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

That's the time that you can use an audience, right, to modify a group's behavior to show them look, if you come forward with this issue, this is about saving lives and and completing the mission, you know, albeit a little bit later. But this was an important point. That's that's how you got to do that. And again, I'm telling you, sketch it out before you print it out.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

You know, so it's all right. Yeah, well, well, there's uh what what I see in in these these kind of escalatory situations too. It's like, you know, especially, you know, you're let's say you're watching something back on video or you're sitting as a fly in the wall and you're going, like, hey, like, what this is already escalating, and they're not recognizing that the situation is is escalating. So is it what are what are we what are people missing when they fail to recognize that that situation is beginning to just spiral out of control?

Spotting Off-Ramps And Pauses

SPEAKER_01 17:41

So you said it most equ you said it very well early on. The word just alluded to me. The idea is that you said behavior and context. So let's drill down on that for just a minute. If you're focusing too heavily on the words, on the verbal content, and you're not watching their behavior with those words in context, then you could be led astray. The the issue that they're holding on to, I'm seeing that they're not opening their behaviors, or maybe they're opening behaviors, and I didn't update my assessment to that behavioral shift. Okay. Now all of a sudden I see them, you know, they instead of rolling their eyes, they lean their head back and they're nodding. Okay. So I I take your response as an attempt to manipulate me or an attempt for you to save face rather than saying, hey, wait a minute, this is a nexus. I'm seeing an off-ramp develop, and boy, I could really exploit that. So our our advice should be to anybody listening, look, if the CS, if the situation is de-escalating, you got to let it. It's easy to trap fall into the trap where you confuse. Look, I don't yet trust this person that I'm speaking with, so I'm going to keep applying pressure until I win. If you're there, then you're going to pass every one of those exit ramps without seeing them. And the idea is that's why you got to take that pregnant pause, Brian. That's why you got to take that breath. And folks, Brian used it all the time. He goes, and and then waits for the next thing that's going to go on, right? And then what happens is the information creeps out. So if you're doing that, you're likely to see the open door or the open window or a way ahead. If you're not, then what you're going to do is you'll just be rating the person. And that leads to nothing good.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Well, and and you know, and obviously we talk about time and distance all the time and what that means, but you know, with things like rage and and anger and all that, like you can't you can't maintain that forever, right? So meaning sometimes just that that when you know people say, Oh, give them some time to cool off. Like that, yeah, that's true. Because those those those emotions, those catecholamines, the, you know, they they they subside after a while. Your body can't keep pumping out adrenaline and cortisol and all that stuff. It's it has to recycle. It has to go, hey, dude, I'm I'm spent now. So you you there is that time component in there that that is kind of working to your advantage. Like, well, they'll they can't stay man forever unless they're doing the what the Popeye where he's going around doing the thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Right? So he's self-regulating, although it's it's kind of destructive. Look at his arms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

So so what what what what how do what we do with HBPRNA and and and how does that sort of add to the conversation here? And and

Baselines, HBPRNA, And Rehearsal

SPEAKER_00 20:12

what what let's let's frame it in kind of like even the stuff that we talk about on other other episodes and within class, and and how do we do that? Like how do we use that? Like and what what what value does that have in these types of situations?

SPEAKER_01 20:23

So HBPRNA is not mind reading. It's not a collection of isolated tells uh poker match. It's not a parlor trick. What it does is it helps you assess patterns that become visible or look for patterns when you're not aware that they exist, and then measure that against the context to determine what fidelity does that have on a baseline? What behavioral direction I can determine from a changing baseline? We were here, now we're here. Now we're here. We're above, now we're below, right? So the key question isn't, is this person upset? Clearly they're upset or you wouldn't be there, right? The key question is, hey, what's their behavior like now at this point along our baseline? And which direction is that moving? Is that moving forward or behind? Is that moving up or down? Right. Remember, spatially, things move in a lot of directions, Brian, and as we're teaching class. So I always take the yellow pad. And one of the things that I would say for if you're listening at home, just try this exercise. So turn your yellow pad on its side. We use ours mostly panoramic, I guess that would be called. And on the left hand side, put what you could ask, okay? And that's where you're gonna list the questions that you think you're gonna ask. And then on the right hand side, go, wouldn't it be better to ask them this? And this is where you formulate that in a better way and rehearse it before you're in the scrum. Because if you're in the scrum, it's never going to come to you, right? So you can ask yourself, are they angry? But a better question would be hey, is their behavior becoming more or less organized? Are they uh exhibiting behavior that is more intense or less intense, more confrontational or less? Now, what that gives you, Brian, is that gives you a chart. It gives You agree that you can refer to as it goes on. Did they just disrespect me? Wait a minute. Let's back that up and say, you know what would be better? Are they presenting a safety or a performance or relationship issue rather than a personal attack? Because it's a personal attack. You can rebound by going, hey, let's not make this personal. Let's stick to the issue at hand and many other issues, right? So now we're creating a spiral follow-up, right? That would be our third count. The question that you should constantly be asking yourself, are they complying? Am I actually seeing the person complying? So then back it up by saying, hey, does the overhaul behavior support an actual stabilization of events, or are they just concealing another concern? Because people that pile on, look, more evidence doesn't mean pure evidence. You get what I'm trying to say? So what I'm doing is I want to go along that baseline and go, well, we are here and now we're here. They were, you know, agitated and closing distance, and now they're here where they're contemplative and giving distance. So those are the uh uh implements, let's say, that you want to be looking for on your chart. And if you don't have a chart, how are you gonna find it? And you go, oh, well, I'm good at baseline. Are you? Where is your baseline? Show it to me. Because if you don't have one, Brian, and you're saying you go into the conversation with yellow pad, no, but I've yellow padded it five times before I get there.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah, and and this, these are the clarifying questions that that that matter that that allow you to see it. Because what everyone wants to make it simple. It's like, well, uh are they a threat? It's like, well, fuck a dude. I don't I mean, that's that's one, that's completely subjective term or completely subjective question because it's based on the person asking it, and one one person might consider a threat some people would never even see what is obvious to some and if they think is a threat is not much to another. So it's not even really so when you said this, like are they currently right now presenting because you're you're now you're you're putting like a like a time stamp on that time and distance fund. They're saying, okay, I'm gonna measure right here and I'm gonna do a hypothesis test, right? Like, are they currently presenting a safety performance or relationship problem? Like, are they currently what is it? Because like you said, because sometimes labeling it right is important, right? So that workplace thing, like, hey, this this isn't about you, this is about performance of you and the team, right? When they when I frame it there, but then they keep going back to something personal. Now I know, okay, well, well, I tried to make it about this, but you keep making it about this. So it clarifies it for me and gives them, you know, the off-ramp. You're you're extending that, like, okay, and then they go, okay, yeah, I see how it's affecting performance. So now, okay, I'm getting you're you're you're agreeing with my assessment or agreeing with my hypothesis. So now we're already starting to take steps in the right direction. So those those clarifying questions of is like, yeah, are they are they making the are they making the situation more or less chaotic?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Are they, you know, I mean it's like that's binary, but it's a simple emotional-based binary for human behavior. And so you would anticipate that. Is this getting better or worse? Gosh damn, medics ask that. When they come to a 7-Eleven and you've been shot, they're saying, is the pain worse now or is it was it worse when I first got here? Are you feeling any relief? That's what they want to know.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, yeah. And and that's that's when it comes into now, like uh understanding those clarifying questions, right? Because what does it mean in this moment right now, based on this this updated baseline? Okay, we've been now we've been in this argument for five minutes, right? What else has changed? I have to update it from there, not based on what what happened maybe 20 minutes ago or a day ago, right? It's like, okay, but what does it mean right now in time? And and that's kind of where you can start reading that direction and get ahead of it and go, okay, I see now this is de-escalating, we're good. Or you know what? This is not. I'm making all of these, you know, substantial attempts that are genuine, and it's still I'm not seeing the off-ramp, I'm not seeing the sign saying, you know, exit quarter mile, this lane only. Like that's not it's not there yet. So because uh one of the things is like you don't want to fall into the trap of then, okay, everything's okay. So a person can appear calm and still be dangerous. So how do we I mean, how do we avoid treating de-escalation as a guarantee? And then that's like the workplace violence ones you'll see where they they get up, leave the room, and sometimes don't even say anything, and you're like, okay, what the heck? And that's when we go out to the parking lot and they they they pull the shotgun out of the trunk and they come back in, right? So how do we avoid treating that that de-escalation as a guarantee?

De-Escalation Is Not Proof

SPEAKER_01 26:22

So let's go back to every podcast you've you and I've ever done, every in-class uh training session that we've ever done. Reduced intensity is information. It's not proof. Information isn't intelligence, it has to be processed. So it's one more factor to consider. Your assessment has to include all the basics of reading the room, their movement, their distance, their attention, their access, their fixation, positioning, and all of that has to be based against the environment and the baseline. So these are baseline white belt elementals, you know? And once you've measured the weight of those observations and perceptions, now you consider the presence of others in the crowd. That could be exacerbating the situation. An audience uh might be changing their behavior positive or negative. So it's easy to mistake somebody getting quieter as them calming down. It might mean they're digging in, it might mean they're becoming more deliberate and tuning you out. So the goal is to not assume the good intent. The goal is to read the tea leaves and adjust your intervention to exploit or accept the current behavior as long as it's going in a positive manner. Never accept negative behavior. Never. Okay. You have to set boundaries and you have to reinforce those boundaries. But it's real easy to go, hey, we're getting somewhere. Okay, I like that. Let's follow up with that. Because now what you're doing is you're conducting a test, aren't you? You're conducting a test. Was it real? Did this person really just have that epiphany, or are they covering up for something that they don't want me to see?

SPEAKER_00 27:45

So so yeah, you and and and it's so what you're what you're talking about too is like it's not just about maybe setting boundaries or calling out something inappropriate. It's uh it's also you know, you praising the direction that that you know you do want, right? So it's it's it's okay, no, not over here. I'm putting the the boundary on, but oh, you're going over here. Hey, I like that. I'll go over there with you, right? Yep. And and so and and I the I'm gonna ask you a question that I know is really hard to answer, but we this is the stuff that most people want.

Signs Things Are Not Improving

SPEAKER_00 28:14

And it's a little, you know, it's it's it's it's hard to do because everyone goes, you know, what are some of the indicators? What are some things to look for? And we're always like, well, it's not the thing to look for, it's how to look. And you're looking for really just incongruent signals, or is this incongruent or is this congruent? But how would, you know, what are some indicators that might show someone is moving towards de-escalation? They're they're like, they're they're not signaling yet, but they're slowly drifting over to that that exit lane, right? They haven't put on the blinker, but but like you can see, okay, they're they're starting to kind of move over towards that exit lane and take an off ramp.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So the the key is that you want to create a degree of fluency in this. You don't necessarily need to be a subject matter expert, but you need to be good at it. So one of the things that you have to get good at is feeling a person's willingness to at least see a least objectionable path out of the interaction that we're involved in. Okay. I can see a resolution. If they it'll never work, we're all gonna die. That's real hard to come back from. So if I see, you know, these type of events and I feel them, I can perceive them, they're given less interruptions. Okay. They've reduced their verbal intensity. They're using less space for their direct confrontation, like instead of every time it's walking up on me and they're you know being very demonstrative, okay? They're allowing more physical space for that conversation to continue. I I see or hear or feel a shift from them being accusatory to them forming an explanation. They're forming it and they're trying to work it out in their own mind while we're right there together. And you sense they're accepting the reasonable request that you gave them. You give them a reasonable request. Look, need to take a step back for a minute. Okay, let's lower our voices and see if we can get at it. Okay, look, they're they're at least seeing the boundaries. That's a step ahead, right? We're moving forward. So when you start sensing that there's less fixation on that original dysfunction, the original grievance, then what you've got is now you're creating that time distance gap. You're observing a more organized speech pattern in this person, a lot less frenetic movement, most emotions, and posturing. Posturing is an important one, Brian, because those are electrochemical neurotransmitters that are causing me to pump out my chest and show you my jugular. When I see less of those, it's clear that I'm getting through to you and we can together work on the solution. It can't all be me. It can't all be me. You have to give part of the solution for it to become a contract, something we can enforce later.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

And and some of this, you know, if you if you you gotta take it on the context of the situation, especially if you don't know the person. Now, if you know the person, then then then you can you can you'll have a better baseline for what's typical, right? And I I remember like when when me and my wife like kind of were were first dating and everything, and and she'd be like, you know, one time we got an old argument about something. It wasn't anything big at all. I thought it was just a discussion. She she framed it as an argument, but I didn't get that because she's like, Well, you she's like, Well, you I I try to talk to you about something. You get this Chicago attitude. That's what she called it. That was her term. And I was like, What? And I'm like, okay. And then once you want to play, well, and then once we uh once she spent Christmas at the uh Marin household, she was like, Oh, oh, I get this is just how you guys talk to each other. Like, this isn't like no one, you're not actually upset. You're just you're I'm like, yeah, we're you know, just passionate about whatever, you know what I mean? Because then, well, then she'd got to see what an actual fight at the Marin Household looked like. And she was like, oh wow, that's much more aggressive than what you do recall.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Comparison points that I had. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

But but but what it what it what it means is like it it's it's when you're developing that baseline, that that knowledge of the individual is also helpful. But what would what ways what how would you be able to tell that, like, all right, you know what? Maybe maybe I gotta stay on this a little bit longer. Maybe this isn't uh de-escalating yet, maybe this this isn't taking that off-ramp. Like, what what can I tell? Is there something that that I can you know?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

So I love that you brought up a very specific context. So let's talk about that at home. Let's talk about that around the holidays, right? So you notice that the language seems to be you know relaxing, calming down. Uh, yet the posture and the positioning is either more concerning or increases in aggression. Okay, clear sign something's not working. We don't have the normal give and take of a conversation. Now their comments keep circling back over and over to a very single point. Well, you said this. Well, when I heard you say that, they're following you. They're they're monitoring your actions very closely, looking for that point to re-engage. That's not helpful. Okay, that's combative. As a matter of fact, we would we would put that in the combatives manual, right? So their continued attempt to bring others into the argument on your side. You know he does this. You guys have seen that. He has enlisting the aid of others. Enlisting the aid of others. We call that the recruiting phase, especially for coppers. You see that. You're in trouble. They're still at odds with accepting the situation at hand. They're still ready to fight. So if you want to say see them gain space, gaining space can be a very good thing, okay? But if you see them gaining space to give them an edge, moving to a position behind the island in the kitchen, moving to a position behind the kitchen table from where they were seated, okay? Saying, Well, I've got something, I need to show you a document or whatever, or like you said, head it out to their car. Okay, that could be a weapon. Whatever that is, that misdirection is an attempt to gain access or reposition to a position of advantage. And that should be concerning to you. Anytime somebody, for no other reason than to gain an advantage, does something, you have to take a

Environment Tweaks That Calm Things

SPEAKER_01 33:38

step back. You got to give the gift of time and distance. Now their behavior becomes less expressive, but it's much more deliberate. You know that that's going to happen next. Look, have you ever seen the the two boxers, Brian, where they get together and they talk before the upcoming bout? What happens? It's all shit talk till they get there to the stare down. And that stare down is the most disturbing part because that's likely the touch-off point for touching fighting physical activity.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Well, that's a great example because you you just said like, you know, the behavior maybe becomes less expressive, but more like deliberate and more purposeful. So like those those things are meant to create that, right? Though those that that's a great example because like those pre-fight weins and this, like they're supposed to they're they're create the buzz for the for the fight and everything's coming up, and they're all you know talking crap and doing all this stuff. They got their entourage with them. But then, like you said, they bring them up face to face to do the photos, and like they don't know, like because they go fights have they've started right there before, right? So they've or someone's done something, and sometimes it was served by like an accidental bump by one of them, and then that guy goes, Oh, here it is. It's like the absolute crescendo where it's right there, and and you can see it and feel it.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Perfect analogy for de-escalation. So put yourself mentally in that situation. This is a great on-duty roll call. What could you do to lessen the severity, to add to the de-escalation likelihood? Uh, first of all, turn off the lights and the cameras. Second of all, get a little bit of distance between the participants. Next, lose the entourage. You see what I'm trying to say? So de-escalation is a function of the baseline elements in that environment and the context that you find yourself in. It not some people won't ever be de-escalated. Okay, but that doesn't mean that you have to start escalation when you arrive. De-escalation has got to be an ongoing process, not just for this call, for every call that you're on. How can I ease the anxiety, right? How can I see the the dysfunction more clearly so we can get right after the solution?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah, and you you said it right there. It's like you know, humans we act differently in front of a camera, everything in front of an audience, you know, whatever it is when there's other people there, right? So so that's just like that that we everyone is going to do that. And so now if I can help, if I yeah, like you're talking about like if we can remove the audience, like if you took the the if you took the cameras away from the from the way in, none of that.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Turn down those lights, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

If there, if there was no one in the audience, none of that would happen. If it was literally just, hey, you're gonna go on that scale, you're gonna go on that scale here, meet in the middle for a photo, that would be it. But that's not that's not entertaining. So like yeah, they they you the the environment is what increases the pressure, the situation, the context of what it is, all adds to that. So just by by letting that out. So and you know, you you gotta kind of uh stop for a second and and and kind of kind of take some take take account here of what's happening. And that's actually something I kind of wanted to run run past you, and I've uh seen it before. It's not something we sort of explicitly talk about in class, but because there's there's what we're we're talking about a couple things. One, obviously, reading and recognizing the situation for what it is, right? So establishing the baseline, determining intent, seeing where it's going. But but then we're also talking about like this, this, the self-awareness, the self-regulation, the internal baseline, right? So you can't control everything externally, and and you but you can control some stuff internally, right? A lot of it's just gonna be there running, depending on what state you're in. But like you, you you can kind of you can kind of you have some control, even you know breathing is one way to control your autonomic nervous system. So, you know, there's there's ways to do it. But what I seen before is like literally it's called like the stop test, or you like, you know, when we say what does it mean to stop, stop for a

The STOP Test For Better Choices

SPEAKER_00 37:18

second. Well, so it's a it was like a little kind of a way to think about it where the S would be in stop, separate the present from the past, right? So what is happening now distinct from what just happened five minutes ago? Like, what is it right now versus five minutes ago? And I actually saw an interesting video uh on social media, it was a it was a police pursuit, it was out in California. Multiple agencies had the Hilo up and they're following us around. And like then at one point, you know, because they you the radio, you can hear all the radio traffic, right? At one point, the watch commander, you know, back to the station called off the pursuit. He's like, hey, back off, call it off, we're we're we're done. And they had the bird overhead, and he's going, and and so the pilot on there is like, hey, just so so I'm clear. He was trying to do the, you know, I I think there's a better way. Yep. He's like, so so I'm clear, you know, there's no we're we're gonna we're gonna let this guy go who was just involved in a shooting, and then whoever was running the the watch minor game's like, no, this person was suspected of being part of a shooting, meaning like we don't what we might be chasing someone for something else and then we cause a fatality, yeah, whatever it is, right? But he's running either way, but like hey, we don't know. And he's like, and then the pilot got back and I was like, no, no, this person, I I want you to understand. I observed, you know, what appeared to be muzzle flashes coming from his vehicle. So that like, you know what I mean? It it changed the dynamic a little bit, and the watchman just was like, we're calling it off, back off. You know what I mean? So it it's it's one of those things where even in the situation, right, it's like, okay, stop. We're the what happened at the beginning of this pursuit is very different than what's happening right now. And so it was just a great way to frame it, like separate the present from the past.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

That's the hardest thing to do, too. That's a that's a great one, Brian. Yeah, because the hardest thing to do is for you to say knowingly that this is about now and moving forward, not about all of those injustices I witnessed in the past. So that's it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

That's that's one that's what I gotta do with the wife when she's like, and I'm like, okay, okay. What does this have to do with what we need to get done right now? Limited to the 10 things I did wrong today. Like, do we just focus on what I did wrong right now, three weeks ago? Right. So then the T would be like test your purpose. Like, think in your head like, am I what am I actually doing here? Am I trying to create safety? Am I trying to get some clarity? Am I trying to establish a boundary? Am I trying to solve a problem? Or am I just trying to make a point? Like, what do you because you you you'll feel that too. You're like, I've noticed that too. We're like, oh, you know, I'm starting to go off the rails and be like, that that's not gonna help the situation. I'm gonna go ahead and leave that one. I'm gonna go ahead and keep that one. I'm not gonna fire off that text message or email because that's that's not that just porn gas.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Matter how good it seems to be right now. You get what I'm saying? Give it a little time, and guess what?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

No matter, no matter how good it might feel. But like, is it but it's a great way to do it? Like, what am I doing here? Am I just trying to make a point or am I trying to solve the situation? Claire, like what is it that I'm actually doing with this? And then the O being observe the direction of behavior. So observe the direction of behavior, just like we talked about. Is this we're just saying escalating? Is it stabilizing? Is it is it de-escalating? Like what's what's happening here? Where is it going? Because there is good there there, you you know, you look at it, no matter what situation, every situation I've ever been in life eventually comes to an end at some point. So it's like that this is going to end based on the direction it's going right now. Where is it likely going to end? Is it gonna be good or bad? And if you frame it that way, you can start to see the pre-event indicators of what's coming next. So always observe the direction of behavior. And then P and stop would be pick the proportionate next move. So pick the proportionate next move. And I like that one because it's like, all right, what's what's my next move here? Do I continue on the path we're going? Do I try to, you know, fall back a little bit and gain some ground? Do I reduce pressure? Do I create distance? Do I offer an exit? Do I is this the one where I know I have to put a boundary in, or you know what, hey, Greg, I'm getting nowhere with this guy. Can you can you try this? Right? Or do we end? Do I have to just literally just put it in, put the perndal in R and and back out of the situation and go, that's it? Because that it's these are choices. And if we get you know mentally and emotionally hijacked, right, we fall into that escalation trap. Like, yeah, well, our limbic system is making those choices for us. We're not we're not consciously making them, right? So we try to make that that move next word. So I I I I saw it, I liked it. I thought it was something easy to kind of listen to because it it puts it in that stop analogy. But but like what that tell me why that's hard to do, or tell me tell me why, like, eh, Brian, it's not really gonna work, or it's a little bit more difficult.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

But first, I'll give you an experience. So I I was expelled from high school three times before I decided they didn't want me, so I'm not going. Oh, nice. And and the idea is that all three were self-inflicted. I remember at the first one getting called in and they were ready to talk about the you know execution of the punishment phase and what that was going to be. And I kept wanting to revisit the original incident and you know, high on my pulpit. I had every right to, you know, be, you know, disagreeable and do this, and you know, my my you know, actions were the and the problem was I couldn't separate the present from the past. So that's hard for me. And then when you look at the oh, the observed, the direction of behavior, that's hypothesis testing. Are we better now? Are we better now, right? So I would go, because remember, I've just seen these. This is the first time, so it first one of the yeah. I would tell you that first of all, I like it. It's easy to follow. Second of all, I would tell you that testing the purpose has got to be the hardest because all humans are ego-driven and and we're defensive by nature. So the key is to observe your own actions like flying a wall. Second time you've heard me say that today. And and we can justify nearly any action is necessary when we're emotional. Remember, parents' spouses say that their wife, son, husband, whatever, could never do that. Look, given the right amount of emotional context and perceived pressure, humans are capable of amazingly bad things. Okay. So the the most disciplined question is what outcome, what effect am I trying to create with this sentence, with these words hooked up the way that they are? That implies you're already using the gift of time and distance. You're measuring your response, not just waiting for that person to stop talking so you can speak. Because active listening is huge here. What am I seeing? Am I seeing an attempt to escalate? Am I seeing an attempt to stay, you know, even uh bandwidth, which is not going to be helpful? Or am, you know, am I looking uh for an exit, right? Am I and I'm am I probing to see, hey, what options are available to me? So once I've sized up that argument in chief, you know, the four corners of the document, then review the words about to come out of your mouth or Or before you hit send. And then understand that if your response is rooted in revenge, if your response is rooted in punishment, or you think it's so funny. This is a great comment. You know, Stewie, oh, I wish I would have come up with that earlier. You know, if that is somebody, right? Or dominance or control. Okay, then don't say it. You can say it to yourself in a shower. You can go, man, I should have done it. You can do the Popeye, right? But you're about to do more harm than good. You might not be able to unring the bell that you're about to hit with that hammer, right? Yeah. I just say that that to me, that's the absolute hardest.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah. No, that that is. And again, this is why like we we try to keep like simple, kind of almost like tactical takeaways, things that you can try out. That's definitely one. But all of these, you know, you know, it's a framework. It's not a it's it's they're they're thinking points. They're not like they're not a tactic, technique, or procedure. I know.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

And they don't need to be. They don't need to be. They need to be discussion points that I can use to frame what I'm about to say or

Scenarios And Avoiding The Trap

SPEAKER_01 44:57

do.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

You know, that that's the let's let's just let's just hit that right now. Because that's what a lot of people are looking for. That's what different people, oh, you're gonna do this and you're gonna follow this four-step process, whatever. And like that's great to think or analyze or go back and go, oh, okay, I see how this works. However, like it's not how it works. It's why we always talk about it's not, you know, here's what to look for, it's here's how to look, because it's not always gonna be that same thing, or it's not gonna be that easy. But it doesn't have like you just said, you just you just nail it. It's like it doesn't have to be. You don't have to have a very specific process. It's because you have to find what works for you, what works for the person you're dealing with, given the context of the situation that you're in. Well, that's a lot to take in. So it's how many more, it's like it's like well, it's like when we do like, hey, it's baseline plus anomaly equals decision. Everyone's like, okay, I'm seeing this anomaly, I'm seeing this anomaly. It's like, no, no, dude, like don't spend your time looking for anomalies. Spend your time figuring out what the baseline is because the more you throw into there, the better it is, the more fidelity in there. Like all the incongruent signals are gonna pop out to you. It's the same thing in these cases. It's like, okay, well, so those questions are things you can do in the moment, though.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Let me throw something at you. Okay. You know, I get highly frustrated when I see crap online where people break down a video. And the very first thing they say as subject matter experts is, I would have done this or I wouldn't have done that. Okay. Or you can't do this, or you can't don't ever do this. Exactly. You weren't there. Okay, so the framework should be how can we take a look at what's happened and move forward from that? Is it a leadership intervention? Is it a training intervention? Did the officer understand? Okay, now we're we're coming with an actionable list of items, outcomes. Do you get what I'm saying? That modify behavior. That's a way forward. Going, oh, look here.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Oh man, that just highlights everyone's jumping right to the solution. And you're like, well, hang on, hang on, hang on. You haven't even clearly defined all of the elements of this problem. Right? You haven't feel like how big is it, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Is it is it culture-wide, Brian? Is it agency-wide? And I would say ask yourself that whether you're an HR or a parent. Is your role as a parent at home so destructive that you're creating this without even being there? You don't even notice it, right? So spend all that time bitching and looking for punishment or revenge, researching what what's the true problem here? What's the nature and the depth of this? And then go to to try to solve it.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Yeah, it will the parenting one is a good one because like if I see, you know, just normal stuff, you and most see my wife get starting to get frustrated or or with kids or something like that. Like, I immediately have to be like, I'm going, I'm slowing things down. Hey, let me get that. Hey, I'll get them. Don't worry about that. Because like you can't have bad cop, worse cop, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:37

No, you can't all be stick stick, Brian.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Because it doesn't it kind of is an arch media, though. Well, well, it's it's because of how we grew up. That's it, it is.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

We're defensive by nature.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Hey, don't do that. Hey, don't do that either. Hey, don't do that. Well, what am I supposed to do? It's a Magruber line. I'll tell you what you're supposed to think. Yeah. Um, okay. So so that that so I don't know where we're going with that, but it is that's Maggruber reference.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

I know. I know.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Um all right, so so you let me kind of give a little example here to talk through some of the stuff. So um say you, and I'm trying to keep these deliberately keeping some of these scenarios vanilla so people in their head can think of things that they've experienced or even seen online, right? Whatever. Like there's all these, that's the big thing now, which has been for a while, where it just like everyone wants to go video something, get a reaction to go, you know, wild on social media, which is well, it which is funny because like you see people doing it and you're like, but the what's interesting to me is like it people still fall for it. Like this person's clearly just trying to come in and get you upset to put you on the internet, and and it's obvious, but like you're still falling for it. But I'll give like a scenario, like so a person, you know, repeatedly told, like, hey man, like I need you to get back, right? I need you to step back. They start arguing, right? Then they create distance and begin to comply. And then you'll see that then then now let's see, me, I'm the one dealing with him, but then I I keep moving toward them, repeating the instructions, saying, Hey, I need you to get back, and I need you to stay over here. They're kind of backpedaling, yet I'm walking toward them. And so then they that person becomes confrontational again. It's like, you know, where where do those situations begin to change? Like, how do I how do I change that? Then I'm where where can we step in and see that?

SPEAKER_01 49:27

So an accidental demonstration of intent is intent nonetheless. So you're reading their initial behavior. Okay, and that means they justified their knowledge of the boundary by them moving. That means they accepted the boundary, okay? And then the behavior directly direction shifted because now as they're creating appropriate distance and beginning to come comply, the teacher, copper, parent didn't update their assessment of the situation, and so they kept acting out the initial plan. The initial plan is move them back, move them back. And I can't see that there's an exit lane, right? So your consistent uh uh uh uh uh insistence on near proximity, okay, and the additional verbal pressure took away any chance that the person was going to engage in further de-escalation activity, and now you're starting to rob them of their dignity. The situation shifted to being about solving the problem to be about exerting my ego and my control and my identity. I have the badge, I control this, I'm the teacher. You need to back on. That's all acknowledged. So let's acknowledge all that up front and take it off the table and just say you need to move back. And when the person says, Why do I need to move back? And saying, Well, you're scaring me. Oh, I'm scaring you? Yeah, so please move back and then we can have this discussion. Boom, just disarmed it. Now, if the person chooses after that to continue to go ahead after you've already set the boundary, that you're frightening me here. I'm afraid, Brian, that sets a very demonstrable example for later on when now you say, Well, I had to continue to move forward, because clearly the person demonstrated intent. My intent, though, was that subversive move where I say back up and then I take that step. Wait a minute. Okay, you gotta you gotta relax that role. You get where I'm going there?

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Yeah, well, I I saw again, I there's so many great examples on social media where this one was like a it was like these two bouncers at this bar and it was an outdoor patio thing. And they're like, hey, dude, like you got and there's some distance between them, and they're like, dude, you're done. You gotta go get out. Go out. And the guys argue and yell and he's like, get out now. Or we're like, you know, they're they're put trying to put the pressure on him. And he goes, fine. And he like right there was the edge. There was like a gate, you know, like, you know, waist high, swing gate. He walked out, stood on the other side of the gate. So he was now out on the public sidewalk, right? So, so he he had left that patio area and he just stood out there. He's like, Fine, I'm gone now. And they didn't go, they could right there. I was like, Oh, they go, Thank you, sir, I appreciate it, and walked away. And the guy would have had no one to yell at, but then the no, they kept it was just like they were locked in. Yes, no, no, get back, get your hands off the gate, get this like once he's out there doing it. One now, like that. That's like he act he complied, but he was you guys still wanted to have a say and be a smart ass and be a jackass.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

All wounds are self-inflicted, buddy. All wounds are full of self-screen.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

But they just it was it was just like he just did exactly what you asked him to do. He left. Is he still being an asshole and saying, Oh, I'm standing right here on a public sidewalk and I can? Like, yeah, but guess what? He can. And you know what? Call call the police. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, like hang out there, dude. Like, uh, uh go ahead. Like, I I mean, we it's so so hard for for humans to you know to disengage like that because once once that limit system is in, man, and I'm on this groove on the record, I'm not constantly looking for other options, or I'm not constantly updating my baseline, or I'm not clear on what success looks like, right? It becomes now you make it about yourself, right? It's like, you know what I mean? So so it's like how how how do I do that? Like what's what's the what's the what's the better next move when I see those things? Because I have to be able to in the moment gauge, okay, you know what, this isn't ideal, but but it's it's successful. We we've we've crossed a threshold here.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Yep, yeah, yeah. It's a win. And and look, we don't want to frame things as win or loss, but the idea is that did it move your agenda forward in a positive manner? Okay, so that's success. And success can also be translated as a win, right? So if you need a win, that was a win. You did it with the most minimal uh verbal and physical violence possible. So there's nothing better than that. And and you can easily turn that in. Your example was a scenario, and I love scenarios. So I would say go back to like, you know, I only have uh uh limited social media, but I like reading stuff by Dwayne Wolf. I certainly like Pappy Pap and Foos. Why? Because Pap and Foos makes a large, complicated argument and he breaks down specific factoids that would tend to show you something happened. Now you can use it. Yeah. Yep, we can use every one of those at on-duty roll call. So I would say turn Brian's for you guys listening at home, turn Brian's into an on-duty roll call. So uh ask a probing question on okay, we saw what happened. Uh what would have been a better next move? How could we have changed this likely outcome? And now you're getting the people to demonstrate their proficiency, but more importantly, you're helping them with their fluency. So, for example, somebody comes up and says, Well, let's maintain clear, consistent boundaries. And if I have to adjust that boundary, I have to account for it. I have to say why. Okay, that's good. Jim, well, uh reduce unnecessary verbal pressure, stick to what you need to accomplish. And and many times you might have to add the why. Okay, well, I I don't always agree with the why in a in a tense situation. Maybe when it's resolved, you know. Okay, now we have a discussion, Brian. So, Laura, well, you know, let's give directions and an opportunity for a clear, concise exit from the encounter. Hey, look, I didn't call me here. I'm clearly here to help resolve this issue. So working together, you see how that language uh all of a sudden shifts it. And so the final point on this mock on duty roll call would be look, when we go out there today, let's never engage in any language or commentary that turns compliance into humiliation. That's not what we're about. We work at the behest of the community. We work for the community. So that means that we're all in this, to use your dad's phrase, God rest his soul, we're all in this together. Nope. We're all in this at the same time. You remember that? Best words of advice ever. And you know what? That's a de-escalation tool. He got right to the issue with that, Brian. That was a great thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah, and and these are that they again, I think the defining and measuring what success looks like and and a win or anything is as even as small as it is, like it's calling it out like you know, Shelly always says, celebrate the small wins, right? So it's like when I I go back to the the example I just gave with the bouncer even gonna like, okay, did he leave and is he stopping? Well, he didn't go home and walk away like you wanted, but the guy walked out of the establishment. He actually did what he was supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Let's go there then. So what should we do when a person complies? So the very first thing those bouncers should have said was, thanks for creating the space I asked for. We can address any of those other issues later and then go to your neutral corners, right? Now, I'm not looking at a video and going, hey, look at what these did. I'm saying let's have a discussion on how we can fix what happened and how we can end it on a positive note for both parties. That person can come back later when they're not drunk, or it's not a birthday, or if they didn't get, you know, felt insulted or whatever else. And now look, it's a win-win. So win-wins are really good for everybody. You know, I know you're ready to split, but do me a favor, I need you to remain here with me while we sort this out together. What are you doing? You're enlisting the aid of others. It just happens to be the person that you were called on. And a cop says, Well, I can't do that. That, you know, it lessens my authority. No, it doesn't lessen shit. It shows that you're a human. So then you tell the person, look, you have a choice here. We can get through this working together. What did I just do, Brian? I set very clear boundaries without being a dick.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Well, that and and what you did is gave yourself like you gave them an option. And so they then get to react to that.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

If so you said, hey, look, right? I we establish. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

So so you're saying, like, okay, hey, we can do this together. And if that person maybe's like, hey, we aren't doing shit together, it's like, okay, now I know what element can be added to that baseline. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Now they do the baseline increased. And guess what? You know what reporting does? Reporting is I said this, they said that, and the crowd goes, Yeah, he's right. Okay, now I have a leg to stand on, and it's not the pirate leg, you know?

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Yeah, well, yeah. So it's like I'm giving you this opportunity, and you not only didn't take it, you actually put a boundary down and said, No, that's not happening. You dropped the gauntlet. It's like literally.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Well, now you've made this go a different direction. You've now made the and and that's good to know even after that, like, well, that's when the situation went, or that's when I knew it was unlikely that this person was going to you comply or do this because based on these factors. You know what I mean? Like, it's those small things that you're trying to measure.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

And like even your stop model illustrated that perfectly. Look, there's a lot of good stuff there on the market, but to evaluate it, what process led to actual de-escalation and what allowed for escalation criteria? So your bravado, uh, your badge, your uniform, the number of compers, all of those things add to the equation, right? Which one of those can I reduce without reducing uh Force Pro, without reducing safety and security? You get what I'm trying to say, and still get to the desired outcome. How many times have we done that? How many times have we taken a knee and done that? You and I do that constantly, right? But but should we do that for an event, a parade, hiring, a firing, you see?

SPEAKER_00 58:50

And we don't staying focused on, you know, what am I, what's the outcome I'm trying to achieve? What's the effect I'm trying to have? Not what's actually going on. It's like this is going somewhere. Where do I want it to go? And it will this get it in that direction, or is this person not allowing me to? Like if you've given every choice or every option and you're trying to like it just understanding what the effect or the outcome is that you're trying to achieve, like that alone allows you to frame it, you know, with within this, within the situation that you're

How Bystanders Can Help Safely

SPEAKER_00 59:20

in. I I I wanted to to to jump to uh because we we we we talked about it uh at the beginning a little bit, but you know, how I I've got a good good one from this, but how can bystanders, you know, how can they interrupt that pylon? Like if I'm I'm not necessarily involved in this incident, but I'm off to the side, I'm there, and I want to like I want to interrupt that pile, I want to make sure this ends well, or I'm seeing I'm out to dinner with my family or whatever, and I know where this thing is going. Like, what can a bystander do when they see one person continuing to press after the interaction has begun to stabilize? Because there's a lot of of you when you're not in the situation, or I mean you're not involved, but you're there and you're just observing, you you got really good perspective because you don't have a dog in the fight and you're going, well, I see this guy and I see this guy and I see this happening, I see this happening. So, like you kind of have a bit of an advantage in that situation, right? Just observing, right? And so, like, what what what can someone do to kind of interrupt that that escalation trap?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Yeah, so real quickly, it's been 95 degrees all this week. I've got the house hot the how hot house lights on and everything. So if it looks like I'm melting, I actually am, Brian. So if I go down, just leave me and come. You gotta wear shorts, man. We can't say that. Oh my god, I gotta take my pants off. So so I had to write it down because I think it's right. The thing that kids get on that have the horses and the wagons and the Merry Go Round. Merry Go-Round. Okay. So I want to make sure that I say it right if I'm gonna use that as an example. I would ask you uh a perfunctory question. Is it easier standing in line with your ticket, choosing your horse and getting on, or trying to get on when the merry-go-round is already moving? Okay. So just think of that for a minute, you wise acres that are out in the audience. What I'm trying to get at there is only intervene if you have a duty or an obligation to intervene. What do I mean? Intervention can sidetrack all of the progress that's going on in that encounter. And you may not see it clearly. You may see it from a perspective or an angle where you're going, oh man, that looks like it's getting heated quick. I'll step in and solve the problem. Look, hero, you've got to make sure that you're reading it clearly before you jump in. Now, when would you have a duty or an obligation? Excessive force. You see a uh you know a parent dragging a kid around by the arm and the kid's becoming you know injured or booting a dog or something. You have to come up with your own moral compass, but it's very clear in society what behaviors are accepted and what aren't, right? So now let's say that you do that. Now I'm stepping in, publicly undermining either the person controlling the situation or the encounter is just going to create another contest with authority. So you coming in and go, hey, there's no reason for doing this here. And you don't know what the fuck you're talking about because you weren't here three minutes ago, right? So frame, frame, frame. This is where rehearsal comes in. Now look, you're saying, hey, I'm a copper. My job is to come in and break shit up. You're kind of you're a copper. Your job is to uh read the tea leaves, solve for X, and figure out the best, least intrusive intervention to get everybody what they need. So if escalation is called for, well, then by all means escalate. But remember that if somebody else is standing in front of you doing it for you, and you come in and go moving them out of the way without their tagging you like world-class world wrestling foundation or whatever it is now, yeah, that's a bad thing. So if you can, redirect the conversation towards a share objective. And that can be with the person that's leading it. So you can I can look at Brian, and we've done this many times before, going, hey Brian, let me take it from here. You know, I I know what he's talking about more clearly. Uh okay, or you can come to and go, hey, this is a great conversation, but let's move it to the break room. Or, okay, either one of us, or Dan, the emotionless uh genius, uh, comes in and says, Look, we've discussed a lot. We have what we need right now. So let's take a break and and we'll revisit this in an hour. He's always the voice of reason because you know, we get agitated because we're all alphas and we all get into the same room with our objectives clear and visible on our sleeves, and then we get angry because we're thinking everybody's using accusatory language, and all they're doing is fact-finding, right? So your ultimate goal is always to create create off-ramps, not to win the argument or decide what's the right approach. So even to a copper dealing with a violent suspect in the lobby of a place, okay, what actions or statements can I use now to make this go another way? Because right now you're scaring people and you're breaking stuff, and we can't have that. You know, that can't continue. Those type of things, Brian, you have to think them out in the patrol ready room, not on the gosh damn street, because that's the worst possible time to say, hey, let's create an experiment. You get what I'm saying? So to go back to that. You know, we have the information we need now. Let's take uh, you know, the logical next step and work together to resolve this. I like using the term together. I can see that you're compliant. So let me give you some room to do that. You get what I'm trying to say? And I back off. Okay, that's a design to build trust, isn't it? And you're going, well, I can't do that because if I got to arrest him, dude, if you got to arrest him, you got a bigger gang than he does, you'll be fine. Okay. You don't have to rush and videotape your own death. So, and then, you know, I would also add something like, look, I understand you have additional concerns, and let's get past this one, and then we'll discuss those. So that means, hey, there's a future after this encounter. I like building that into things. That's a big de-escalation point for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Yeah, you're you're you're you're providing uh what you're doing is you're providing other options, you're getting them out of this initial heated, you know, overstimulated moment, the right now to go, well, okay, but there's a right now, but then there's after, and then there's after that, and there's after that, and then there's this. So like let's, you know, let's let's let's let's table this conversation for now and let's you know, whatever. But but in and and you know, you you talk about a little bit about the kind of teamwork aspect of it too, is like when you said that, hey Brian, let me take it from here. Like, I know like that means wave off, like, or or like you're you're seeing something I'm not, or if I go, hey Greg, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

It's not like personality issue. It's not Brian. It's intended to say you're not seeing a point clearly that I'm seeing, and that's a trust issue for well, and because you talk about like for the law enforcement example, the the on-duty roll call.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

So I mean, that's that that type of language, those, those pro words of communication that you have that you know, like, hey, when someone comes up and they say this to you, that means you're done. Let them take over, sit back, take a breath, and observe. Because it's it's it's a you have you have to have that, you know, the the kind of guardian names. You gotta have someone overwatched looking in a sense, because they're gonna have a better perspective and go, all right, well, I'm gonna have I'm gonna pass the ball to you then.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

I I need everybody hearing my voice to understand you need that in the boardroom and in the classroom too. So you need those safe words that you can say. Where now all of a sudden, you know, you're a C-suite executive and you look at uh your executive secretary or you look at the chief of staff and go, you know, these are great points. Perhaps we should move that, you know, to a follow-on discussion or to the next meeting or whatever else. And that person immediately catches on. There's something I'm missing here. We have to stop this. We have to table this and move on. And you know, operating at the speed of trust means that we've rehearsed that enough that I get that. I see that Brian's saying, hey, we're out of time for this. And what is it? It's all about time and distance, isn't it? It's all about making sure that we have the best advantage to get where we need to go together. And and and that matters boardroom, classroom, home, kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

You know, maybe maybe not use the term safe word because that has a different connotation.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

But we're right back to Brian's been trapped many times.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

Um okay. Well,

Resisting The Last Sentence

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

uh, all right. So so we we we kind of we went over this a lot because it these are complex situations that have to deal with the environment, the person involved, the people involved, you and being involved in the situation, you're like there's all these dynamics of these. And and so I kind of like what what do you want, what would you tell listeners to remember the next time they feel the urge to add one more sentence to do and another thing? Because uh, and uh you to be fair too, we we often do that, and this is why I mean you cover this more on the Patreon, but like we we often do that without realizing that we're doing it, so you're not you're not doing it intentionally, like you're going, all right, well, and I just want to make sure this, and it's like, okay, you're doing the and another thing. It was solved, it was gone. It's like hit and move. Like, so what what what can we do uh uh the next time we feel that urge to add one more sentence or one more text?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

So so first of all, you brought it up, but Patreon, the and another thing, it's fun. Yeah, we uh Dan is a great host. Uh it's always fun talking to Dan, so please tune in and then always leave a like if you like it, leave a hate if you hate it. We'd rather have the like, obviously, right? Yeah. Uh uh you used, I'll frame it this way, this is my closing remarks. You used stop earlier, and it was a great acronym. It's something that I could learn in Jotdown. I could have a little index card in my desk or on the wall next to my mirror before I go out to make sure that I framed everything correctly before I go on. Okay, or just come and take a course for us, and you don't need to write shit down. Um, the ability to stop is a form of strength, not weakness. If you understand that from the get, that being able to stop is a sign of strength. You're not weak. That helps our coppers, that helps our uniform people, that helps our authoritative, our C-suite executives, our supervisors to understand, okay, this is all right to do. And the second part of that is look, you're not abandoning your principles or standards or policies or procedures to avoid unnecessary escalation. You can't do that. You can't trade something. There's very few things. A hostage negotiator in a tense confrontation with a man, you know, beheading babies or something. I can think of one in a quadrillion times, and it almost never happens, right? But right here in this moment, you're thinking, well, I'm the cop. I don't need to step back or step down. Keep thinking that way. How important is your career to you, right? Then your responsibility doesn't have to be to win every moment. It can be, I want to make the best choices and decisions regarding the situations I confront today. What a what a noble thing to tell yourself before you go out on the street, right? So you have to leave room for the other person to move in a direction. Okay, if you're jujitsu in every conversation and you're pinning up to the mat and then going, why won't you fucking move? Okay, that's counterproductive. So you got to see yourself doing that. Always update, constant assessment and updating your assumptions based on the reality and the context of the situation you're observing. And then, you know, anytime that you find yourself continuing to pressure or punish, you know it's going to lead to undesirable outcome. So create a mnemonic, create the shit sandwich in your mind or the dumpster fire or an explosion. And then that'll back you off the X when you go, hey, I'm rapidly approaching, you know. So I would say the person who can stop at the right moment isn't losing control of the interaction. They're demonstrating that they have full control of the interaction. And that's a huge point.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

Yeah. And and the the stop kind of acronym is great because you know, separate the present from the past, test your purpose, observe the direction of behavior, pick the proportionate next move. But regardless if you remember all that, you just remember stop. You know what I mean? It's like stop. That's what they meant.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

I mean, that's why that's it. Yeah. Uh puts that together.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

It's the ultimate goal of the damn acronym. You know, that's what I mean. That's why I liked it. I was like, oh, yeah, that remember that stop line coming up.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

The wreck of the Hesperus.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

Well, we we we covered a

Closing Thoughts And Listener Requests

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

lot in here. Again, we've got more, of course, on the Patreon, like we discussed, and we've got all kinds of other stuff on there. We've got more episodes coming up for those who keep, you know, who are reaching out. Uh, please keep doing that. You've got other cases or topics or interesting things that that you'd like us that you think we'd like us to cover. We'll absolutely do that. You know, if you enjoy the podcast, please, you know, remember to share it with a friend, give it a like or a thumbs up. And then uh, Greg, any any other, any other final words?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Look, look, we work hard to bring you the knowledge that you're requesting from us, and we'd love doing this. So something as simple as a thumbs up or a repost, you don't even have to spend the time commenting to hit a thumbs up, all right? It means a lot to us. And it might tune in somebody that needs to hear this information. You might already be a SME. Help somebody out, help a brother out or assist him in this manner.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

There you go. All right. Well, I appreciate everyone, and thanks so much for tuning in. And don't forget that training changes behavior.