Why is Society Fascinated with Crime?

BONUS EDITION AS PROMISED!

At the end Series 1, I said I would be exploring two questions:

1. Why is society fascinated with crime?

2. The 10 percenters who don't re-offend or return to prison. 

My first interview is with Lisa from Manchester who has listened to every episode of Tales From The Jails, the perfect guest to get us started with delving deeper into this subject.

During the three and a half years I was in prison I wrote over a million words by hand. Tales From The Jails is a contemporaneous account of my life, and attempts to thrive rather than merely survive, whilst incarcerated.

Most names have been changed. The events have not.

This is a Jekyll & Pride production.

Producer: Trevessa Newton

Title Music taken from The Confession, on the album Crimes Against Poetry (written and performed by The Shadow Poet, produced by Lance Thomas)

Copyright Jekyll & Pride Ltd 2025

@talesfromthejailspodcast

@jekyllandpride2023
@theshadowpoettsp

Transcript

0:00

Hi everyone. It's G Dubs here. It's 2025, not 2016, and I'm not stuck in a cell, but out in the real world. Finally, I'm back in the saddle since the end of series one, a little later than we planned, but tech and editing is not our strong point, so apologies for any dodgy sound at times, but we will improve that as we continue over the months. At the end of series one, you may remember, but I indicated the areas that interested me and wanted to explore through some interviews. Firstly, why is society fascinated with the topic or genre of crime? And secondly, the 10 percenters. This was based on a statistic used by the home secretary Mahood when she said that 90% of criminals or prisoners re-offend. I was curious, in the 10% who do not, who are they now? Who did they become as a result of incarceration and why did they not return to prison? My first guest is the perfect place to start, Lisa. She's related to one of my friends and has apparently listened to every episode of Tales from the Jails. So I asked my pal to ask Lisa could I do an interview to get me started. I met her at the workplace an opticians in fact, Frames they're called Charlton cum Hardy. Very nice location. Reminded me of Alderley Edge. It was 8.30 in the morning and we only had 30 minutes until she opened the doors for business. I hope you enjoy listening. Lisa was fascinating to chat to, really insightful, and my only regret was we didn't have longer together. I'm here today, aren't I, because I've just finished series one of Tales from the Jails. Yes. And you've listened to every episode. I have. All 50. All 50. Yeah. Which I feel like that's an achievement for us in itself, that somebody's gone the distance. Um, and at the end of the series, and for those that are not familiar, Tales From The Jails is my journal, it's an account of my time. Mm-hmm. Away in prison. I said that there were two things I was interested, I was going to almost do while we press pause. Yeah. One is, I am really fascinated as to why society and people are curious a bout the topic or genre of crime. Yeah. So for me, um, I think it's probably to how the brain works. Okay. Yeah. Um, I, I sort of, I'm a great reader, so one of the things I like with books, I like biographies and autobiographies and I like'em, famous people, but once they get to the point where they've got famous, I've switched off. Okay. It's the what's happened in their childhood and what's shaped them for me, um, that interests me why they went a certain path. And it's the same with the crime stuff. I mean, I'm dreadful. I love, I love the crime. It's interesting that some people behave like that and other people don't. And so to me, some is it nature, nurture what's happened in between. Them being born and getting to a teen and committing these crimes. What's happened? And that's what, that's what I enjoy about it. What about, as in my case, someone in prison and we're capturing, we're looking through a lens, capturing everybody else around and the systems and the processes as much as the people. Mm. What held your attention through the series? Um. How you coped with it. Okay. How you got through your journey for me was what, what I was interested in because you had a really unique way of coping and getting through it and not getting brought into sort of like the cliques and the gangs and you basically wanted to do your time and, and get out and you put things in place both mentally and physically to help you do that. So that, for me, that's what kept me there. I was interested in, you know, the other people in there, I was interested in your commitment from your partner. There were those sort of things that kept me going, yeah. You went all the way. Mm-hmm. What did you think of the prison system, especially because we're currently, it's headline news again, isn't it? The prison system. How does the TFJs compare to what's within the media? Well, it's portrayed a certain way, of course, isn't it? What's the difference then? Yeah, well, the difference is that, you know, the journey you went on to get, to try and get to go to university. I mean, that should have been an easy journey, really. There was someone in jail wanting to make a difference, and it seemed to take forever to you for you to even get approval. Oh yeah, I mean, I think the phrase I used to use, they used to delay me, disrupt me. Mm. Uh, and deter me everything. Yeah. To prevent me. But you kept going, I kept going. Yeah. So that was, that was what was quite interesting to me. That your determination and you wasn't gonna be swayed by the dirty talk and the, the, the, the, that the jail talk that men tend to do, the gallows talk. Yes. I liked that as well, because... You know, you had someone on the outside who was dedicated to you, and I think that kept you, your mental state in a very, very different place. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. When you know that somebody believes in you. When somebody loves you. Yeah, yeah. And when somebody's gone through so much, sharing it with you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we lived together apart, I think that was one of the phrases. Yeah. I mean that's, we used to use. Admirable for, for the, you know. You didn't have a choice. She did, but she still decided to be with you. And it's the power of love Lisa. So it is. It's, and you know, I'm lucky. I'm in that same, I'm in a good relationship, but I was amazed by T. Every single episode that I listened to, I thought, God, what a woman. You know,'cause her positivity impacted how you felt in jail to me. Well, it was horrendous. I mean, T never told anybody I was away. Right. Her family... Mm-hmm. Never knew. Right? Because I think it is in the series, isn't it? She's, she has elderly parents. Yes. And she goes back one Christmas. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it was my first Christmas inside. So that would be the end of the series. Yeah. I'm thinking back now. Yeah, it was, yeah. At the end of the series, she's going home to her parents and she said she hasn't told them. Well the excuse was you were spending it with your daughter? Yeah. Yeah. And my parents, I think it was, they were.... Yeah. Really Ill, yeah. Yeah, that was in, that was interesting as well,'cause that was gutting as well, knowing that you had parents that wasn't well and there was nothing you could do about it. Yeah. It was all, it was all very interesting. Yeah. Any episodes or moments stick out? Um, the last two, but that's from a personal, um, opinion because it was the George Michael thing and it was ridiculous. But I'm a massive George, massive fan, massive George Michael fan. And those two, 2016 going into 2017 was quite a funny time for me personally because I'd had Ingrid who hadn't been very well. And then just as we went into 2017, we'd, of course we had George dying, which he was, you know, it was my idol. And then as we went into early 2017, my husband was diagnosed with a brain tumour. Oh. So they not just'cause they were the last ones. When I'm listening to you on your podcast, I'm thinking what's going on in my own life as well. And thinking, God, George is going through that in there. He's keeping positive. I managed to keep positive during the time, um, with Ingrid and, and with Tony. So, so those episodes, the fact that it's going the toilet to write and... Oh yeah. You know that. Yeah. And there was, there was other ones as well. When you were prepared, you were doing the shirts for the young boys that were going to, you know, to court and I just thought that's a de... Each shirt... Yeah. Told a story to me. Yeah. It was a dedication of love, isn't it? In, in a, you know, you couldn't do much for those young people. You were a mature person in there, but you could wash and you could iron the shirt and you could make it look as nice as possible. It was almost like you were behaving like a dad to them inside. Well, Toenails and the... Mm. The posse, his posse... Yeah. Wretched creatures. Yeah. Were always on my case. Mm-hmm. Um, and I didn't have a problem... One, it filled time. Yeah. Uh, and I think very early on, very early on, it might have been maybe episodes three or four where I'm ironing shirts by then because one, it gave me something to do and then two, I thought, well, it was horrendous, the trial experience or going to court and you've got lads inside and you find this, it's what's very, almost surreal is that outside you might not have a lot of time for certain people, but inside you almost become this band of brothers. Yeah. And the thought of them. They're up early, they're going to, they were on trial for murder, some of the lads. Yeah. But you don't take that into... You don't take that into consideration. That's, that's not even a thought. Really. What you're thinking is they're gonna be stuck in court all day. They're up early, they don't really get fed. You get treated really badly. The system's against you. Don't get me wrong, people have committed murder, but as you say, yeah, it's almost as though you are not thinking of that. Yeah. And then iron... washing and ironing the shirts takes a couple of hours, etc. Yeah. But I think within an episode, I remember saying it, each shirt, as I say, told a story. Yeah. They had the guys on trial for murder and one of them was... In a, in a shirt the size of a school shirt. Yeah. And that's, that's the end part of their story. You know, what's gone on in their life that's led them to wearing that shirt. So the shirt thing for me was really important. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I used, I remember thinking at the time, did someone bring the shirt in with them or is it being handed to them? Given from the prop stores, etc. Yeah. You had to try and do your best, try and do your best Yeah. To make things work. Mm. And I think their trial went on for as long as my own. I think it was 13 weeks. But the ironing of the shirts and the tangerine shirt was another one. Yes. Yeah. The point still moves me now, the thought of the young guy in the, in the tangerine shirt. The tangerine shirt, and, and then lots of them didn't make it to the funeral. Not allowed to go in the end to the funeral... to show their respects to the loved one. Yeah. Has it changed your perspective of prison? Yeah. Yeah. I sort of. I'm not daft and I sort of knew the system, you know, I remember watching something years ago and it was showing you how they were trying to reform everything. And then later on, I think there was a documentary in there, were interviewing sort of police, uh, prison officers and they were saying, you know, we did the best with what we had. There was some of us that were good people and there were some very bad eggs who took the job because they liked the power. So I sort of had an idea. But listening to it from your perspective was quite, quite interesting because in the current climate, I think it was only last night, there is still the sort of... society has this idea or notion of it's all too easy for the guys in prison. Yeah, it's the PlayStations. Yeah. We're eating well. Yeah, it's all drugs, partying as much as the violence and Yeah, but there's a guy that got put away from murder, I can't remember. I can't think... he's called Rafael. And he does a program where he visits different prisons in different countries and he goes to really, dangerous prisons. Is he this Asian guy with the white hair and the'tash? No. Someone was on BBC Three? Last night. No. No. But it is, I can't re... I think he's called Raphael. Okay. And he was, he was found innocent in the end, but I think he served between 10 and 13 years. And one of the series that he did, I think he's on series two now, where is where I think he went to, either was either Switzerland or Belgium. And their prison system was so different. And...T always says that... They were treated so... not well, but they were treated like human beings and there was a bit more freedom and they were cooking for each other, and they sort of toed the line because the faith was being put in them. Now, I know that doesn't apply to every person, but it was really interesting to see how different countries deal, deal with it for me. So that was my fascination with your podcast. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Looking back at the series what would you think needs to be changed? What do you think needs to be changed? Within the prison system? Yeah. Um, I think there needs, needs to be better resources for food. Um. Rehabilitation to get, give, you know, how hard it was for you to try and get to university. But you know, you've gotta think of somebody that might be in there. They might have committed murder. Yes. They need to be punished if they committed murder, but what's gonna happen if they get out? It's the same cycle in life... it's what you create. Yeah. I don't think we come out. Yeah. I was lucky. Yeah. You still come out damaged goods. Of course. Yeah, absolutely. There's no, there's no swerving that. No, no. Um, but you know, for someone who's got nothing to come out to, they're just going to go back and that's that cycle of crime. So there needs to be more to rehabilitate people. And I've got people in my family and friends who probably wouldn't agree with me, but anything that stops, people re-offending... do you think it's a broken system that we dream about? We'd like to fix or could be fixed, but the reality may be is that it's unfixable. I don't think it'd be fixable in our lifetime, George. Do you think it's a cultural thing in this country then? Yeah. That if we can see a more successful process and system working abroad in some countries and it's not working here. It's partly the system, but it must be the culture as well, mustn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Series two. Oh, have you started? What would you like from series two? Just to hear a bit more about you, the next year of your journey. Really? It's worse. It's far worse. Oh, wow. Wow. Oh yeah. I can say this without... spoilers alert and all the rest of it. Did I say at the end of the series that at some point anyway, from the first day to the very last second of my time, there is no dull moments. It just keeps growing in intensity to the very last second when I'm released. Wow. It keeps giving. Well, I look forward to that then. It's in three parts...wow. Yeah. Oh, series two is another 50 episodes. Right. I bet that takes a long time to sort out doesn't it? Who are the characters that stuck out? Um, your, what was your, uh, cellmate before? Oh, the one that you've got now? Oh. Well, there's Macca, Macca. I know that Macca's...I was close with Macca. Yeah. Macca's still relevant to me'cause he was in the end one. There was another one you had, Big Reeve that could, yeah, I think so. But yeah, so there was, but Toenails for me, Toenails. Toenails for me. Everyone mentions Toenails. Toenails because he, I don't know quite why he had it in for you. Well, I do,'cause you were different and...you carried yourself with a bit of dignity and you try to keep your head down. And that's really not the culture in prison. And I understand that because in order to survive in, in prison, it's a bit like school. You've got to establish who you're friends with and who your posse is. Um, we've all been there, and that's, to me, it was just like a very tough extension of gangs in school. It's the worst of everything inside prison. Yeah. But most, certainly the the bullying. Yeah, the intimidation. Yeah. There's no off switch. No, there's no honour amongst thieves. There's none of that. No. And you don't have to have any, anything about you. So I'm sure... I'm an child. Okay. Went to not particularly great school. Um, first time and then went to a second school. I was bullied because I was an only child that came from a, a quite a nurturing family and I was the eldest grandchild, so I was put on a bit of the pedestal. So it was a bit, I had nice clothes, nice trainers... there was nothing I did at school that made me stand out, apart from that. And I got bullied in school. It stays with you all your life, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I think because of that, it's been good for me because I think you can shapeshift throughout your life. Okay. I think you can. read rooms very well. Read people very well and I think, I think I almost sympathized with you when you were in prison,'cause I sort of, there was a bit of you, a bit of me that I sort of recognized that you just wanted to get on and get out. Well, I think for me, you know, I wanted to give a true and honest account mm-hmm. Of what was taking place as much as... yeah. What I was experiencing. Yeah. How I felt. Yeah. It kind of, you know, there is a tendency that, how do you not write about yourself in the situation? Mm. But equally, I was conscious of all this stuff going on around me. Funnily, I heard I think it's for the Uni... The prison officers'... Mm. Union man. I think it's Fairhurst. The other day, talking, it's relevant to the guy who's being released. Oh, the one that was released by accident. Thank you. Released by accident. And they were talking about that, but another prison officer came on as well and spoke about in prison, reception is the hub. Yeah, yeah. It's where all of the activity's going on. Yeah. And you can put sort of, as people are being processed through, you are probably thinking, you are probably reading them as they walk through the... Well you are, but there's two things going on. Every person that comes in comes in via reception and every person who leaves goes out via reception. Right. Yeah. So. You are amongst it. Yeah. You see a lot. You're amongst a lot. I spent less times on the wing than, yeah. I spent far more time in reception. But you're in the thick of it. And giving the account of this was as much important about trying to be fair. Looking through... like a fly on the wall. Yeah. Trying to be non-discriminatory. Very difficult to be non-discriminatory when you're on the end of such a tough or torrid time really. But I feel as though it gives an account fairly of what's taking place. It's trying to not be biased with maybe some unconscious bias in there. To some degree. Uh, but I did navigate my way through, and you've said a number of times now about university. Education plays a big part. Of course it does. Yeah. Absolutely. Your determination to get a degree and, and to better, not better yourself...you were gonna spend how many other years you needed to spend in prison, that was beyond your control. So you were going to make that as easy as possible for yourself, but also as productive. You know, you wasn't gonna come out and start doing different things. You were gonna come out and think, well, this is what I achieved while I was in here, and well, it was going to help me make a transition. Yeah. But equally, again, for...a terrible spoiler, this one. Mine was all about an appeal. The solicitor really did say, we'll have you out within 18 months, George. Yeah, well...that, that was apparent through the, the thread as well,'cause you thought every time, the time... I absolutely believed, yeah, I was out in 18 months time. Yeah. I would clear my name and be able to move on with the hope... we were going to California. Yeah. That was the plan. Yeah. To live. To live. Yeah. Oh, wow. Wow. We were selling the business and going to California. Wow. All right. So yeah. And that went pear shaped overnight. Yeah. Yeah. And then I didn't end up, I don't want to give the spoiler away about the appeal because it's such a big deal, but I thought that university, one was a great way... Yes, in prison to occupy my time and two... but to keep your mind active as well. Keep mind active. I hoped it would also help me make a transition from an old life. Yeah. To a new life. Yeah. Yeah. And almost a buffer in between. Yes. Yeah. And that's, that's actually what you were doing. That and that for me throughout it. I was like, when I was listening, I wonder if I'll find out whether he is.... You know, they've approved it or you know, and that's what I was wanting to sort of hear throughout the episodes, whether it had been approved for you. It does and it doesn't, I was supposed to begin university, they derailed me on the first year, so I start the Open University, just so you know,'cause you wouldn't know. But I began Open University in Walton. Which was a big achievement by itself. Yeah. Against all of the odds. Yeah. I think at the end of the series. Yeah, you did...'cause it's the confirmation comes through finally. It does. It does. And you're talking about old school, like with books and... Oh, that's true. Yeah, it's true. I, I, I probably, because it's the first series and I'm trying to be true to it, not give too much away, but, you know, let's, the lids off now. It was old school, no internet. Yeah. You just read... It becomes, maybe the main focus goes on to play the biggest part in my life really. Yeah. Because I go from the Open Uni, the Open University Access, I think it was called, not Foundation course, Access course got me into university. Mm-hmm. University, got my degree helped me make a transition and then I went on to do the Masters. Wow. So I think between 2017 until last year. You were studying. I was studying, yeah. And came through the other side. Yeah. With a completely different life. I mean, I really do say to people I'm a poet. Yeah. Yeah. And that began way back then. I became the writer, a poet. And was... whether that was a conscious effort on your, when you got put in prison, you was like, I need to do something to survive this. Well, I thought the education route was the right route for me, I think. Is it? Ooh, I might have the wrong name, but Dame Sally Coates did the big report in, it may be 20 18. I think I'm right. Sally Coates. Dame Sally Coates. What I remembered was she said that education was the engine of rehabilitation. Mm. And although I didn't actually believe in the rehabilitation aspect because they were just posters on the walls. Yeah. So you have to, for us, they had all, no bullying, no intimidation. Yeah. All the nos, everything that goes on. Yeah. If, if you've got a drugs.. Or have got any problems come and see, like come and see us. Like it was friendly. Yeah. When really it was making a mockery of everything. They were just words. Yeah. But educate, I mean. Different countries do manage that with their, their education I think it's really fascinating that you bring that up again, Lisa, because other countries do implement much more successful, effective programs. Yeah. Again, here we, it's almost as though we're in the dark ages. Yes. Nobody has a real commitment. I thought maybe when Timpson became the prison czar of sorts, I thought James Simpson would've made a real difference. But it doesn't appear to have happened or be happening. No. Or if it is, it's very slow and yeah. I think you realize when you get into these positions that you're powerless not powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I think the best of intentions, people think they can change things. Yeah. I do think, I do think that. But I don't think it always, you know, it's beyond their control. Well, people are banged up for 23 hours a day. Yeah. What are they supposed to do? Mm. it's like a horror movie. Really? Yeah. You're just locked in a room. Yeah. Unfortunately, we had to wrap it up there. It was time for Lisa to unlock the door and open for business. I think one of the takeaways from this interview was that although crime or prison may be a really popular genre, each person reading or watching or listening is to some degree unconsciously experiencing some sense of introspection. Such as, how would I survive in that situation? What choices and decisions do I think I would make? That sort of thing. Also, Lisa loves the age old question, is it nature or nurture that compels some people to do bad things or break the law without conscience? My guest next week, I'm hoping in some part will give us an insight. Finally, a small correction for good housekeeping. I checked the Coates report. It was published in 2016 and not 2018. It's worth a read believe it or not. The damning review paints a bleak picture, which for all of the recommendations, a decade later, prisons are in the headlines again for all the wrong reasons. Next time my guest is Darryl. He's one of the 10 percenters, a former prolific cat burglar who had a life-changing moment in prison. Darryl gives us a rare and genuine insight as to how a restorative justice course in prison transformed his life, from career criminal to going straight and making a positive difference in society. That's next week. For now, thanks for sticking with us. G-Dubz checking out.