Wholly Empowered

5. All About How to Therapy - Making the Most of Talk Therapy - with Sara Taylor Oliver (part 1)

• Kristen Russell • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Sara Taylor Oliver is a licensed clinical social worker and a yoga instructor. This episode is part one of two where we discuss how to get started in therapy and how to get the most out of the time you spend going. 

In this episode Sara tells us how to find a therapist, how to know when therapy is working for you, when to switch therapists, along with some other helpful topics. Be sure to watch part 2 for the full conversation and more info on modalities and what works best for different personalities. 

If you're not new to therapy share this episode with your friends or loved ones who are ready to start figuring it all out. 

If you are finding value in this podcast leave a 5 star review and comment below! 

You can follow me (Kristen Russell, LMT) via instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sakalyamassage/

You can email me at kristen@sakalyamassage.com

To find a therapist check out Psychology Today
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists

Kristen:

I'm Kristen Russell, and this is The Wholly Empowered Podcast, where we dive into all things holistic healing and open our minds, hearts, and paradigms to new ideas so we can live our most empowered, healthy, joyful lives. I wanted to give a little intro this time because this episode and the next episode are a part one and two of a conversation that I had with my friend Sarah Taylor Oliver, who is a talk therapist and a yoga instructor. And we are going over kind of the basics of getting started in therapy and diving deeper into how to get the most out of your therapy sessions, how to figure out what modalities might be of use to you. So in part one, we're going over how to find a therapist, how to know if therapy is working for you, when to switch therapists, any questions you might have if you're just starting in therapy. Or if you're trying to just get the most out of therapy and you're not sure, I feel like this is a great episode for you. I'll talk a little bit about part two at the beginning of that episode as well. So I hope you enjoy okay. We are here with Sara Taylor Oliver, who is a really good friend of mine. She is a licensed clinical social worker and a yoga instructor and just full of wisdom and We're going to talk to her a little bit about, therapy and where to, where to start with therapy. So Sarah, do you want to just introduce yourself a little bit more in depth and tell us about you? Yeah,

Sara:

absolutely. Okay. So first of all, so lovely, so lovely to be doing this. It's so fun. I love talking about wellness and mental health. And so I've been in the field for about five years. I am one of those people where my career definitely found me. And I had like a lovely long and windy time finding where I fit, but I really love what I do right now. I'm in private practice. So that means that I just work out of my home. I do a lot of zoom visits. I also on the side work with a minor league baseball team for the Cubs. And I don't know, I've just had some really fun. jobs, therapy jobs. I was in community mental health for a while. I was a school social worker and worked with a lot of Latino families. I've worked for family services for the church. So yeah, it's good stuff. I love it. I love my job.

Kristen:

Yeah. Lots of, lots of breadth there. So getting started kind of the goal I think today is just to help people who are, looking into therapy, or haven't, just haven't been, or maybe you've been going and you're just like, I don't know if I'm doing this right, or something. Um, just helping people know where to go to find a therapist, what to look for when you're looking for a therapist, and just all the things around how to get started, and I don't know that there's a right way to do it, but how to just like make the most of it, of therapy, talk therapy. Absolutely. So where would Where would you tell people to find a thera Like, if you're looking for a therapist, where do you go to find a therapist?

Sara:

Yeah, yeah. So to be honest, there's so many ways you can do this, but I, I would say one super foolproof way is going through your insurance. If you have insurance, call your company, ask them for a list of providers. Just say, hey, give me everyone that I could possibly go to for therapy. Um, that will give you a place that you can start. You can call maybe five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, However many therapists you want, ask for a free 15 minute consultation on the phone. Just see, feel it out, see what it feels like. So that's one way. If, if you want to search a therapist in a more specific manner, you might use the website Psychology Today, just psychologytoday. com. it's basically this huge listing. that therapists will put a profile on. So you can read all about them. You can see what sort of therapy they do, what their experience is like. they might even have a little like video profile so you can just see their vibes and you know what they're like, but that's another really good way to find someone.

Kristen:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I didn't even know psychology today was a thing until like recently. I was like, what? That's so helpful. And, the consults, that was another thing cause I think it's so intimidating to start. And you're like, do I have to just go to like, that's expensive and that's time consuming and exhausting to just go and like try therapy with a bunch of people.

Sara:

Always ask for a consult, man. Cause most people will do that. And if they don't, I'm like. That's weird. You should.

Kristen:

Yeah. okay. And then How do you prepare for therapy? Or how do you like, be in therapy? Should you go I know that was something I was concerned about when I was starting, like, do I need to have Do I need to be prepared in some way and have like a list or a goal? Or do I just go and we just talk and whatever happens, happens? Like, how do you how do you navigate that as the client?

Sara:

Yeah. Well let me tell you this. So the very first time that you meet with someone, it's, it's going to be called an assessment. And in that session, it's really just a lot of information gathering. And so, you know, if you think about why you want to go, like, why, why am I interested in doing this? What am I hoping to get out of it? that can be really helpful if you can articulate that so that in that first session, you can say like, I'm really hoping for this or like, do you do this? Can you help me with this? Like, what am I, where do I start? some people don't get around to that for a couple of sessions, which is absolutely fine. But if you, man, if you can journal before you go, if you could just kind of talk with a friend or someone you trust about how to, describe what you've been experiencing, that can also be really, really helpful to get you started on the right foot with your therapist. So kind of having. Yeah, kind of a goal in mind is just good, but yeah, and chances are, um, you know, once you get in there, they're going to start pointing out things and you're like,

Audio Only - All Participants:

Oh,

Sara:

I wasn't thinking about it that way. Right. But, but, but it's helpful for you to have at least a frame of mind, like some sort of frame to start with so that they can help mold. It can help start moving things for you.

Kristen:

And it sounds obvious, but then like, I know with my therapist that I've gone to, there have been times where I just go in and we just chat and I'm like, okay, I kind of want to talk about this. And, but then there've been times where I'm like, okay, I want to do this kind of therapy on this thing. And she's like, Oh, like she seems so relieved. I'm so glad you have a target. I'm like, Oh, maybe that's the best way. I don't know.

Sara:

I think that's a really good way, and it is easier, I'll say this, it is easier on the therapist, in some ways, if you are self aware enough to identify, I have these three things, and I've noticed that they're, they're a thing for me. What do we do about it?

Kristen:

And then you as the therapist, where do you start with a client?

Sara:

I think it's so fascinating because, You know, you do this assessment right, and the way that most of us are trained, just a little bit depending on your licensure, but most people doing talk therapy are trained to do what's called a biopsychosocial. That means that I am going to really zone in on what are the biological things going on, both good and bad. What are the psychological symptoms that this person is experiencing and then socially, like what does their world look like? And I also really like to add to that spiritual to do a spiritual assessment, almost like, does this person have any belief system? Do they have any like spiritual gifts or talents that they rely on? Or like maybe they have a spiritual community or a leader that they believe in or a religion that they follow or something. So really I, when I am assessing someone, I am looking at that biopsychosocial spiritual and I'm just gathering, gathering in the back of my head. I'm just thinking, Hmm, I'm kind of puzzle piecing together and saying, Oh, where, Where are we looking for maybe some difficulty or dysfunction? Where might the person become? emotional even? Or where might they kind of have a hard time going to a certain area? That's sometimes how I know, oh, we're going to need to go there. We're going to need to start there.

Kristen:

So is that mostly like on a first visit, do you feel like you're pulling from that the most, or is it just all throughout with your clients? just constantly assessing those, the psychosocial,

Sara:

spiritual, all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say the assessment is big, right? Because it's, it's like your first, your first time, with the both of you almost testing each other out, like you're testing out your interactions back and forth. But you're right. You're really right. It's a constant assessment every single time you're meeting together, of noticing what's happening, what's, what's being said, what's not being said, feeling out, you know. What's going on for this person?

Kristen:

Kind of, not reading between the lines, but kind of.

Sara:

Oh yeah, there's a lot of that.

Kristen:

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, what, what do you feel like are the most common, I don't want to say issues, but issues that people come to you for, that people are dealing with?

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if you want me to talk specifically about me, I think you'll find that some people we're all, we all have like unique personalities and sensitivities and sensibilities. And so like some people will find that they're drawn to like a certain type of, of therapist. And it's funny because I, I tend to get people that are highly creative and highly anxious. I see a lot of people that are navigating anxiety and, uncertainty with the world. A lot of people that have experienced some sort of trauma and that it's really contributing to that increased amount of anxiety. Also, I mean, a lot of like relationship distress, right? Like people really wanting to come in and talk about their families and their siblings and their parents and their spouses. Right. I get a lot of highly sensitive individuals to that term, like highly sensitive person. If you've heard that before, I get a lot of working with people on How in the world do I care for myself when I'm so attuned to everything that's happening all the time? So that those, those are like my people that, that tend to come to me.

Kristen:

Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess we'll get into highly sensitive later. I think we'll cover some more in broad topics. Cause I want to cover some, some surface, not surface, but like Yeah. Uh, yeah. Some simpler beginning things. We'll deep dive a little. It's just like, yeah. Foundational concepts, right? But, yes. Okay, I have, I have a question so I noticed kind of a pattern. Um, and I, I feel like it's, it's very popular to go to therapy, right? Like on the regular and it seems like a lot of people will go every single week. And, I noticed sometimes it seems like people are, they're going, but they're not making tons of progress. And it's just kind of like, I just go. And I'm wondering as far as like, if that's just a comfort to them, maybe that's great, but do you, should we be aiming for, we want to make this amount of progress in this amount of time, or, you know, how do we navigate that? And like, would it be more ideal if we leaned more on our community or if we had healthier family systems and community support systems where people could lean into that a little bit more and go to therapy when it's, when they're going through something more extreme or just thoughts on like balancing that and what would be ideal or what maybe if something needs to change or I don't know. Any thoughts you have on that? That's really, that's a lot. That's a big

Sara:

question. So I think that's really interesting because I've thought a lot about this. This idea of therapy being for the everyman, right? Everyone having their own therapist, everyone wanting their own therapist, and also this idea that there's a shortage of mental health therapists, right? That people are always saying that, like, ah, there's not enough people, like, how are we supposed to help these kids in schools, right? Like, that's a big, that's a hot topic, is, there's not enough mental health professionals, and, and what are we supposed to do about that? And I do think it's really, really important It's interesting to consider that the framework that we're very used to in like 2024, 2025 is this idea that, therapy is like the gold standard for healing, that pretty much anyone can go to therapy and get something out of it. And if you just go to therapy, you'll be fine. Right? And I find that like that a lot of the burden of society's issues almost seems to fall on the therapy world, which is really interesting to me because Therapy also, we also actually have things we can do to help, right? Like we have good interventions for people. We have all this stuff, but I do think that we've gotten a little bit out of balance again, with the way we've thought about this, because like you were saying, is the evidence of all this mental health and imbalance in the other parts of our society, right? What are we missing out on in terms of our spirituality and, Our communities and our families that is that we're not being given that we're not providing for ourselves that is causing us to like run to this almost like sacred person to give us all the answers. It's an interesting thing to think about and I personally am one of the, maybe I'm a little bit odd in this way and that when when someone comes to me. And it's like, Oh man, I really need to do therapy. I'm like, Oh, okay. Like you should, you should do that. But like, what other, what other supports do you have? Like, what are you already doing? Right, like I hope you don't have to see me your whole life because that's a lot for me and that's a lot for you. That's a lot of money for you. You don't need to do that. Like let's, and so almost to your other thought too of like, should we be making progress? How do we make progress? Like what's the timeline here? I really do think that Again, we've been kind of socialized to think like, Oh, I just, I just go and I do this for forever. And it's this like flowing thing that happens and that's okay. It can be that way, but I love the idea of saying, I'm going to go, I'm going to try this out. I'm going to try this out for like a year. And I am really going to focus on this with the hope that I'm going to make it to a certain point where I feel like I have more stability. I have enough stability that I can go off on my own and I can do it if I could tune up when I need to. Thoughts?

Kristen:

Right? Yeah. that seems like a healthy way to approach it, where it's like, I'm gonna go as much as I need to until I get to a point where I'm feeling like I just, yeah, like the tune up scenario, I guess. I think it's so great that we've made a shift into being so aware of our mental health and being kind of self sufficient in a way where we're like, Oh, we have these resources we can go to and get help if we need to, like, that's wonderful. And like, so good that we can go. every week if we want to. But yeah, it's like, where do we find the balance where it's like, our communities are now in a good place. And maybe like everyone going to therapy a lot and getting really really solid will like get us there where it's just like, oh, now we're all doing okay and we can support each other and be healthy and we just like, you know, when things come up we can go and get extra help. I feel like that might be like, I don't know, not that I'm like saying we'd have it figured out for all of society, but that's like, that seems like a nice thought to me. That seems like a good, a good goal.

Sara:

Yeah. And I think maybe that's what people are hoping for, which again, I think is a good thing. And I think, You know, that's a virtuous way for us to think about it. Right. and in reality too, like being on the other end, it is interesting because I can tell when people come to me, many people come to me and they're really, they're in a very desperate places, right? It's a very vulnerable place to be, to sit down and someone and be like, I'm falling apart and I don't even know where to start. Right. I do feel the weight of people coming to me with. The world on their shoulders and being like, how, like help. What am, what am I supposed to do here? I haven't, I have no idea. I'm like losing my crap. And that is heavy. It is heavy. And I help where I can. And I also try to help people realize that their own agency is extremely important in the process and that it really isn't me. I can be a really good guide and we can do some really good stuff in therapy, but there's a lot of, uh, a lot of it. You have to take on with, again, with your own agency, with your own free will and decide I am moving towards health. I'm moving towards positivity and wellness in my life. And just even making that choice as you go to therapy and saying, I'm going to be accountable for who I am and who I'm becoming makes such a big difference in the therapy experience.

Kristen:

That makes a lot of sense, because I know with some of the other therapies that I've done that are more, like emotional release, spiritual, often just saying, like, pinpointing the thing that's Yeah. the root cause or that's bothering you and speaking it out loud is half the battle. And so I feel like that applies. It's like, there's crossovers where it's like, we're already processing this, just talking about it. And so I feel like that's, I feel like that's part of talk therapy, like, of course, but, but it's, yeah, it's like helping people just recognize and, um, speak it out loud and take, I don't want to say take accountability, but like, like you were just saying, like realizing they have agency. Yeah. And empowering them. Is that kind of? Absolutely. Yeah.

Sara:

100%.

Kristen:

Yeah. along with that, just going to therapy, figuring out where you're at, how much you need to come, you know, all of that. how do you know when it's time to switch therapists? Like I feel like sometimes you kind of run your course with one and it's maybe it's not feeling right or it's not, it's just feeling like it's not a good fit or maybe they've done everything they can do for you. How do you know? When to switch.

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, number one, I think it takes like a really mature therapist to say, Hey, look, look at everything you've done. Do you know how while you're doing, you should, you can consider termination. Termination sounds weird. Right. But that's the, that's the phrase we use. Uh, I don't know that that happens a lot actually in therapy. I think it just becomes this like perpetual thing, but I think therapists that are able to say, look, look what you've done. Look where you were when you started from where we are now. You're doing excellent. Let's take a break. Right. But you being able to do that as equally as important, right? You showing up and saying like, you know what? I like this, but there's something that it's not right. And, uh, I'm going to pause. And again, it doesn't have to be like this whole formal of conversation. Sometimes, sometimes you just stop going, which is totally fine. And that, you know, that's your choice in of itself. But I do think that. Being discerning about your time. And then most people are this way. It's like, if it's not worth your time, if you're not receiving a lot of benefit out of it, it's okay for you to, decide to go see someone else for, for you to say, Hey, I don't like what we're doing. It's not, I don't feel like this is working for me. Can we try something else? Your therapist will love that. Actually, I will. I hope they love that. I appreciate when people tell me like, you know, okay, like that was cool, but don't know about that. Right. It really, really can help your process move along. And it can help you weed out again. If someone's like, that's all I've got for you. It's like, okay, probably not, probably not the right fit anymore. Let's, let's move on. You know?

Kristen:

Yeah, yeah. How long do you feel like it's a good amount of time to give, like, especially starting out with a new therapist, how long until you're like, okay, I need to do something else? And how long with a, like, someone you've been going to and it's been working?

Sara:

Yeah, yeah. I just feel like that's so personal. However, I do feel like, you know, if you've never had the therapy experience before, like, if you've never done it and you're a first timer, You know, I would, I would go to someone for like maybe a good five or six sessions to just, to just like really knock it out. Unless again, use your own discernment. If you go once and you're like. There is no flow here. No flow. Don't waste your time. But if you're like, Oh, there's a little bit of flow here. I think there's something here. Give yourself a good five or six sessions. That's actually six sessions is considered a short term therapy length. So try that. See how that goes for you. And then, you know, you can tell your therapist, I want to do six sessions and then see where we're at. They'll be like, okay, great. Perfect. Let's go from there. You're, you're allowed to ask for that and give those sort of stipulations for people as well.

Kristen:

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the client therapist relationship and how that should work. But I know we're kind of talking about part of that, but yes, in a more general sense,

Sara:

yeah, so I think this is really interesting because this is something that When I received my training, you know, we talked a lot about this idea that you need to build a therapeutic relationship with your client. And so, you know, sometimes when I'm meeting with someone and we actually just for part of our session, we're just connecting and talking about. Like, oh, did you watch, you know that last episode of whatever? Oh yeah, I did too. It was, it was funny, wasn't it? Like, you know, we're just talking, kind of shooting the breeze a little bit. that's build, that's called building the therapeutic relationship. And so it's not a bad thing if in therapy you actually have something in common with them, and you can connect a little bit about that so that you feel safe and secure. Like the two of you were cool together, right? It's like we're cool, like. We like each other. You're like kind of my therapist friend, right? Like it's okay to have those feelings. also you, you want to watch out for an interesting dynamic where. I think sometimes because you, you have so much closeness and intimacy with this person, sometimes like it can get really intense and it's like, oh my gosh, like it's almost like a, it can feel like a romantic partner, or it can even feel like a soulmate a little bit, like a soul sister or brother. because sometimes like you're getting some of your needs met that your spouse isn't meeting, your friends aren't meeting and you just, you know, And it can be kind of an interesting space because like you both notice it and you're both like bonding, but you're like, but this is like, this is a professional relationship, right? So you, you hit some interesting things in therapy sometimes. And I would say, number one, like, don't be afraid of the friendliness and just keep an eye out for like, if you start feeling like a lot of adoration, that's like, or like love or whatever. Like it's very, it's very normal to experience that. If it ever crossed over into like a weird zone where it was like romantic No, that's a no no, your therapist cannot, should not ever, ever go there. You may talk about really sensitive things, including like, sexuality, or, or whatever, but um, but, it really takes a lot of discernment to like notice, like, Oh, is this a helpful, healthy relationship or is there something off about this? So I just, I feel like that needs to be said in case you have never heard that before as a client, you know?

Kristen:

Yeah. I think that's really helpful because it is so tricky to know where that boundary is, especially like, I tend to be on the side of, we got to keep it really professional and I can't, you know, we can't cross that boundary at all. And so that's helpful to know, like it's okay to shoot the breeze a little with your therapist and just, you know, Be comfy. And yeah,

Sara:

so exactly.

Audio Only - All Participants:

Yeah,

Sara:

we love it. And then that can be really that can be a fun part of therapy too. It's like sometimes you come in and you're like excited to tell them something. And I might be like, Oh my gosh, good for you. That's so exciting. Like you went on that date. I love it. You know, right? Like, it can be fun. Yeah, it can be personal. Yes, and it's okay. Yes, it should be a little bit right I think it needs to be.

Kristen:

Yeah, because how else I mean you're sharing so much with this person. So, gotta be a little bit of that

Sara:

right. Yeah, yeah, just like don't kiss your therapist right like like that,

Kristen:

right. No,

Sara:

no,

Kristen:

no. Oh my gosh. so, how do you know, how do you know if therapy is quote unquote working? Like maybe we already covered this, but because we did talk a little bit about when to know when to switch and all these other things, but how do you know it's like working for you? You're getting what you need out of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara:

I would say if you feel Stretched, and or challenged. I think that can be a really good sign. if you feel like you can be stretched, challenged, and experience a little bit of discomfort, also in a safe environment, that's a really, really good sign. So, on the contrary from that, if you Don't feel like you're getting past, like, what's going on to day to day, in the day to day interactions. If you don't really feel like you're getting past so and so said that this and I did this, it's not going to be as therapeutic of an experience as maybe, maybe you're hoping for. And again, maybe that's what you're looking for, in which case, that's fine. Some people are like, no, that's all we needed. And that's great. But there are many people I know that are really like, no, no, no, I'm here. I'm here and I need help. I need to resolve some of these psychological conflicts I have. And so you're really the only one that can say whether it's working or not, right? I might think it's working on my end, but you might be like, it's not working. And so just listen to that, to that inner voice.

Kristen:

Yeah. Maybe assess your goals and why you're there and just check in at that five or six week point mark and say, okay, am I actually hitting the goals that I'm wanting?

Sara:

Yes. Yes. And just like a little note on that too, is that, you know, I feel like everyone's timing is very different and it's very sacred. And sometimes you show up for a long time and you're like, I'm not getting anywhere. And like, I also don't want people to feel ashamed about that and be like, Oh, should I stop? I'm not making progress. I'm not doing anything. If you're having a good experience, that's great and keep going. And if you feel good about that, then you go for it. Like, don't, don't stop going to therapy just because Sara's like, I'm not making, they're not doing it. It's not working. No, no, no, no, no. Right. Everyone has their own timelining. You just don't know exactly What time you need and the patience that you may need with yourself as you're doing this, because it can be, it can take time. It just, it just does for, for most people. And so that's another, I don't, I don't want to be too extreme right there. There really is like a pendulum here and it's okay to have some swing in both directions.

Kristen:

It's not linear.

Sara:

It's not linear.

Kristen:

Yeah. And, do you have an opinion about when to go to therapy? Like as far as, Should you be going before, like, maintenance? Like, we were talking about just people who go regularly, um, or wait until you're in the thick of it, or, like, let yourself process your trauma, whatever happened, if something big happens. I guess I'm talking about in the context of something really big. That you're like going to therapy to work out a big trauma

Sara:

Yeah, yeah. I think, again, I think that's really, really personal and I don't think you can do it wrong. For most people I don't think you can do it wrong if you just decide what you want to do. That being said, I do want to like put up a caveat because Right. If there's someone and they're not able to function in their life, like really not able to function, like I can't get out of bed. I'm having suicidal ideation. I can't do anything right. That's a different case. That's like, this person is not stabilized and they need help immediately. Right. So in that case, right, you, you, you don't want to put that off, but for most people, it's like, I'm just in a funk, right? I feel like I'm in a funk and I feel like. You can, you know, you can really set up that timeline in whatever way is going to serve you. A lot of people, I, I hear this from parents all actually that are like, Oh my gosh, my kid went through this thing. And like, I need to get them in therapy right away. And I often ask the parents well, how is your child doing? And they're like, well, they're fine. But this thing happened, like, right. Like I got a divorce and I'm like, you know, just take a nice deep breath. It's okay for you to be that loving, supportive person. Like, you don't have to always run to a therapist right away just because something happened. And in fact, use discernment and judgment because sometimes there'll just be certain developmental milestones that someone will need to hit and that's when it's like, oh, it's time, right? Maybe it's like, oh, I'm going into pre teenagehood. I got triggered. It's time. Now is the time. It wouldn't have been helpful for me earlier. But now I can feel that it's the right time. If that makes sense.

Kristen:

Yeah. Yeah. And just, it sounds like just using your intuition is a big, just one of the biggest things to lean on with that.

Sara:

Yes. And really like people want to make us the experts and the reality is we are not the experts of your experience. This is your experience. You were in the driver's seat. Again, we can be really good guides, we can do a lot of things, but I feel like there's so much power in you just being like, this is what I need, or this is what I want, or this is what I'm hoping for, right? Just being able to express that is so powerful.

Kristen:

So that's an empowering thought, right? It's like, ultimately, you get to be in charge and It's not up to someone else to save you. It's kind of a, it's kind of scary, but it's kind of like, Oh,

Sara:

yeah, it's not bad news. Sometimes it's like, Oh, it was, well, there goes 500. Right? No. Right. But like, but it's true. And that's also very, it is. It's powerful to know that you You can really like steer your ship.

Kristen:

Well, I feel like, yeah, it's kind of like you can, you can learn the skills that you need to actually, so you don't have to pay 500 every or whatever, you know.

Sara:

Right? Yeah. Like you, if I were to use any metaphor, I'd be like, you plant your garden, plant your garden, prepare your soil, cultivate, you do it. You can do it.

Kristen:

That's beautiful.

Thank you so much for listening. If you are enjoying wholly empowered, share it with that friend or on your socials, you can also hit the follow button. If you want to keep up with the latest episodes until next time, stay empowered.